Departing the launch cart - Davis Show

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

George Stebbins - 2007/08/30 15:55:29 UTC

Just like launching the mountains, you adjust your launch to conditions.

Now let's sit back and wait for another ten pages worth of Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney talking about a bunch of fake issues with fake and backwards solutions while studiously ignoring all the shit that he and his asshole buddies have done to crash and kill people and prevent the brain dead easy fixes from being implemented for more than the three or four people who've gone to the flight park Tad runs.

As I said previously, I've towed behind trikes, 582s, 914s, turbo tug, all kinds of stuff.

- But not the 583 (taking off at 5500' AGL) that Davis repeatedly references in his Cowboy Up review?
- It's incredible that one human brain can accommodate all the knowledge involved in all those different techniques.

And I almost never break a weak link...

- And you almost never launch unhooked.

- As far as we know Zack Marzec only ever broke one weak link - and that was at the tail end of his career.

- I guess that's 'cause of all the different techniques you've learned and stayed up to speed with.

- So how badly have you been locked out and how high have you been when your weak links increased the safety of the towing operations?

- And don't bother telling us anything about what you're using for a weak link, where it's installed, and what your flying weight is - 'cause none of that information could POSSIBLY have the least degree of relevance to the discussion - asshole.

...and have never done an asphault grinder.

Bullshit. Everyone has thier 582 "asphalt grinder" horror story to tell... but they all start the same way... "I was towing behind a 582

On the other hand, I'm not doing some "by rote" launch.

Just using "by rote" weak links and cheap pro toad bent pin crap for your releases.

I watch how the glider is flying (or not flying!) When it first starts flying, I don't leave the cart.

Really? That's not what I was taught. I was taught that it's the early bird that gets the worm.

I give it some more time. How much?

Not too much. You'll get up to Mach 5 and blast by the tug like it's standing still.

That depends on the pressure on the hoses/line.

Get fucked.

Sometimes that means the cart comes up.

Are you sure that's not happening because of the tire tension?

Sometimes it means it doesn't.

That happens when the hoses/line pressure is balanced with the tire tension.

But the key, as Davis and Jim point out is to adjust your technique.

Oh good. Another mutual masturbation society alive and well.

Just like launching the mountains.

A short story: A friend of mine, who shall remain nameless, is a HG pilot and an Engineer. He is the stereotype of an Engineer. He used to land his glider by the technique of putting a hall windspeed indicator on a 5-foot boom out in front of his glider. When the indicator read what he had calculated was his stall speed (or probably just hair above) he would flare. Never mind gusts, wings level, lift, sink, whatever.

Have you checked out:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26379
Landings

The predictable results were some very good landings mixed with a bunch of very bad ones.

All, of course, in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place.

He made no allowance for variable conditions.

Coming from:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12512
Weak Links

George Stebbins - 2008/07/13 21:01:44 UTC

(I'm not that knowledgeable about weak links, I mostly just trust Quest on this, and use their links when possible, and Hungary Joe's when not. I think his are the same as theirs.)

If the wind increased a bit or decreased a bit or changed direction a bit he crashed.

...and someone who always has a bent pin barrel releases within easy reach.

And he really had no feel for how MUCH to flare, either. We finally convinced him that he couldn't calculate his way out of this problem and that he had to adjust his technique...

...to whipstall his glider to a dead stop for every landing in his primary Happy Acres putting green.

...to the conditions.

Never once noting that a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place wasn't an element of the conditions.

After much practice, his landings got better. They are still a bit sloppy, but they are way better than before.

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2095
Should we try a different way? Designwise....

Steve Corbin - 2015/09/02 22:26:04 UTC

Standing around in the Andy Jackson Memorial International Airpark at a busy fly-in shows that a PG landing is a total non-event, while everyone stands up to watch HG's, piloted by "experts", come in to land. A good landing by a HG is greeted by cheers, an acknowledgement that landing one successfully is a demonstration not just of skill, but good luck as well.

As I said above: You adjust your launch (and landing!) to conditions.

But for tow launch you never adjust your equipment such that you're capable of releasing while flying the fucking glider. Just as for landing you never consider the option of flying the glider until it decides to land - the way all the sane people do in all the sane aviation flavors.

(By the way, he had a similar problem with launches, but that seems better now too!)

Must've had help from Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney.

And yes, I used to be a Software Engineer and before that trained to be a Physicist.

Bummer that that worked out as horribly as it did. (And while you were being trained to be a Physicist you learned that "pressure" was a synonym for "tension" - or that there was no such thing as "tension" and "pressure" was a pull on anything long and thin..

But the story isn't about me.

Nah. All these stories all turn out to be about Davis Dead-On Straub and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney - 'cause they're the self serving parasitic assholes to whom you douchebags have handed the sport.

Damien Gates - 2007/08/30 22:32:00 UTC
Brisbane

Hi All,

Hey Jim do you like a good debate :O) ,

Just as long as the people who know what the fuck they're talking about and have his number are excluded from it.

I really have to disagree with your suggested technique, or have I simply misunderstood you?

If you really understood him you wouldn't be talking to him with any detectable degree of respect or civility.

Lets see ... shall we, I have a fair bit of aerotow experience and plenty of observing aerotow experiences

So how many weak link inconveniences have you seen and how many have increased the safety of the towing operations?

This is what I teach people: (shoulder point attachment only)

- So not people you particularly care about.
- And let's be careful not to call it one point.

First the cart (Dolly) needs to be set up correctly for the glider you are flying (we certainly agree here) BUT what is correct.

Ending a sentence which is a question with a question mark.

Davis has mentioned many times that once you are in the cart and hanging freely (hands off) your base bar should be sitting near your forehead as a rough guide. Essentially though what you need to ensure is that the AoA is set so that when the glider starts to fly it ROTATES slightly like a tail dragger would (reaches speed) this is to ensure the keel lifts up from its holder. No keel lift = problems leaving cart = need to push out - WHY? as the glider wants to fly UP the keel wants to push down on the holder limited AoA postive adjustments = feeling of being stuck.

More than a feeling.

You really need a reverse analysis of a tow to establish what you should be doing.

Reverse analyze:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


Impact, tumble, whipstall, Rooney Link increase in the safety of the towing operation, climbing hard in a near stall situation, monster thermal, pro toad bridle. Unfathomable mystery that from which we'll never be able to identify anything that could've been done to achieve a different outcome?

Lets say you can already tow and you are set in theoretical perfect station at the theoretical perfect speed.

Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney doesn't do theory. He just susses things out and develops opinions he'll wager the house are a bit better than those of armchair warriors - without, of course, ever actually wagering the house.

Where is the bar?

Good question. I could use a stiff drink or two after having dealt with as much of this discussion as I have at this point.

It should be HELD in position by you, that is pulled in from where it would find its trim (If it is at trim eg no back pressure applied then how can you possible get up with the tug if it rises and you fall in station without being at a stalled AoA) .

Bullshit. If you pull in and also have the tug pulling you through the control frame the pitch-down effect will double. Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney has seen gliders go negative while still on the cart this way. The results are never pretty.

So this is where you would want to be set up for while in the cart when you are at flying speed, at the point that your keel has risen slightly from the holder.

- If it's a "holder" the keel won't be rising anywhere.
- The glider's gonna go to its flying trim. Hopefully the cart's adjusted such that the keel can lift more than "slightly".

As speed increases you should lift from the cart, if you do not then you ease off the pressure you are holding (no pushing out) and out you come WITH A SPEED ABOVE STALL.

Watch the uses of to/too in the following sentences.

To much speed IS BAD, To little IS BAD, BUT MORE IS BETTER than less for sure.

Practically speaking there's no such thing as too much speed in an AT launch. The tug's not going too fast for the glider to launch even after it's rotated off the runway and leveled out. And nobody's waiting until the tug's lifted off. You can get way the fuck more than you need to safely launch and make life miserable for the cart retrieval monkey but nobody's ever slightly bowed a downtube as a consequence off lifting off TOO FAST.

The idea that you need to have the bar set at a position that requires no push or pull while in the cart seems incongruent with the fact that once you leave the dolly you need 'manoeuvring speed' you need enough that you can get up higher (EASE out a little) or lower if you pop to high (Pull in a little) and still be have enough speed that you can correct a lifted wing, change course etc.

Can we agree that Zack Marzec got popped too high and had neither the maneuvering speed nor...

09-00628
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1517/24907340511_e0696ea696_o.png


...the bar travel to pull in a little and get the fuckin' glider back in the pitch range specified in his placard limitations?

Once again analyse what you do in flight to do this and the principle is the same even if the pressure points/tow force means that they are different positions than normal flight.

Which, since you teach people shoulder point attachment only, they ALWAYS will be and thus your available speed range will be lethally limited without anything particularly nasty or unusual going on with the air.

I have seen negative exits also - these were a case of pulling in way to much putting downward pressure on the cart which will want to slow it while it really should be increasing speed with the glider: fast glider + slow cart = base bar slow, fast wing WHACK!! I have seen exits that are to slow, no manoeuvring speed and your only option is...

I don't really need to hear what my options are. Coming out of a cart so slow that you have no maneuvering speed is totally moronic and I don't give a rat's ass what happens to the perpetrator after that - 'specially if he still needs to be told at that point what his only option is.

...too pull in a little (if you have the room) or hope for the best.

Would wheels have been a good idea at this point? Guess not, 'cause that's not something that Davis Dead-On Straub and his fellow douchebags ever consider to be of any value whatsoever in building safety into their systems.

It is also at this time that you are in big trouble if a wing lifts - with out excess speed you surely have little control over corrections you need to make LOCK OUT.

- That sentence needs some work.
- So would it be a less than stellar idea to be launching pro toads in a gusty fifteen mile per hour ninety cross?

Are we in disagreement, heated agreement...

I sure hope so.

...or have a read your explanations all wrong? :OD

If you've read his "explanations" and not found him in serious need of a beheading you need to go back and do a lot of serious homework.

Safe Skies!!

Not with motherfuckers like Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney and Davis Dead-On Straub anywhere near them.

Cheers TEX

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Supine Pilot - 2007/08/30 23:20:14 UTC

Perhaps this is a bit off topic but I wonder if the V-bridle, pilot to keel...

Pilot, keel - three point.

...tow method combined with a poorly rolling cart may increase the probability of another type of potentially serious launch accident, the on-cart pitch-over.

- Serious?


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


Depends a lot on who it is getting slammed in, dontchya think?

- Raise the line of thrust pulling the glider forward from well below up to the center of mass and that will decrease the effort needed to pitch the glider down? Ya think?

Beware carts that shimmy or have high rolling resistance for any reason.

- Duh.

- This is a self correcting problem. Carts are features of high volume operations. If there's a problem with a cart there's almost zero chance that you're gonna be the one to discover it.

If one is towing with a v-bridle, three point system (actually two point)...

Then why legitimize the motherfuckers like Davis and Rooney by even using "three point" in your sentence?

...the resultant of the pull force vectors are at a elevated point that gives a significant lever arm. This lever arm tends to rotate the nose down around the fulcrum (control bar base tube). Be especially careful not to pull in. Stay about at the trim point.

Don't get on a crap cart. Would you fly a Cessna if the wheels were sticky or shimmied approaching takeoff speed?

I roughly calculate that a 200 pound prone pilot using shoulder tow requires 400 pounds plus of pull (from cart drag) to tip over. The weak link should go first.

No brainer.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


COUNT ON IT.

When using a V-bridle attached about at the hang point on the keel, the resultant vector of the pull force (roughly half the distance from the pilot CG to the keel) provides about a 2.5 foot lever arm to help crank over the glider. Assuming that the anti-rotation force is 400 foot pounds (200 pound pilot CG 2 feet behind control base bar fulcrum point), the required tip over force calculates to be 160 pounds of cart drag?? Granted, that would be a lot of cart drag, but wheel shimmy, rough ground, or high ground speeds could...

WILL.

...up the cart drag. Don't pull in.

Do what you need to or feel like doing. No sane people are going up on carts that are within a mile of pitching gliders into runways.

The two point method has been used mostly successfully for decades...

Then how come it's almost universally referred to as "three point"?

...but more often with beginning or intermediate gliders that fly off the cart at lower speeds...

Rubbish. Not a significant issue. Besides, it's the newbies who lifting carts because they've been told to and haven't yet figured out that lifting the cart is bullshit.

...and may have more aerodynamic pitch stability at slow speeds??

- Irrelevant.
- Slow speeds aren't where the problem would be a problem.

Perhaps the V-bridle is more of a concern for the smaller, less twisted wings combined with bad carts?

There is no concern. There's not even any concern for REAL issues.

If one were to tow a supine glider from a cart (would require elevated control bar brackets and tail bracket), the tip over force would be even less.

Less than zero? I'm OK with zero. I've got other issues to worry about on an AT launch.

The pilot CG would be only 1 foot behind the fulcrum (due to the rearward rigging of the supine base bar).

Wanna REALLY rig a base bar rearward?

03-02421
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7200/14097626583_03972773c6_o.png

The hold down torque would be only about 200 foot pounds. The lever arm is again about 2.5 ft. The calculated tip over force is only 80 pounds of cart drag. Foot launching would be safer.

Until you factor in the foot launching issue of foot launching. But knock yourself out. Hang gliding has a long proud tradition of solving nonexistent problems with dangerous fixes - backup loop, locking carabiner, sidewires protected from being ground into sharp rocks by not doing stomp tests, carabiner turned backwards when used as tow point anchor, hang check, Aussie Method, on-ramp preflight, helmet in the setup area, Infallible Weak Link, Birrenator, surface tow observer, upright final approach, perfect flare timing, spot landing. Plus tandem training just to make things unpleasant and expensive.

P.S. Ya know how to tell fer sure that this is a nonexistent issue? If it were a real issue, if people were actually crashing gliders this way and you were proposing a solid fix then Davis would've deleted your post.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/31 12:57:14 UTC

Tex
I don't know if we're in all that much disagreement or debate or misunderstanding.
It's good to get people thinking about all these issues.

You're right, Jim. But when it's just a bunch of muppets trying to operate at a level approaching yours...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

...there really isn't that much point. We should just rest our pretty heads and defer to whatever it is you feel like pulling outta your ass at any given moment.

I think we're both saying much of the same stuff... too slow = bad, too fast = bad.

Too midrange...

91.309(a)(3) The towline used has a breaking strength not less than 80 percent of the maximum certificated operating weight of the glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle and not more than twice this operating weight. However, the towline used may have a breaking strength more than twice the maximum certificated operating weight of the glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle if--

(i) A safety link is installed at the point of attachment of the towline to the glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle with a breaking strength not less than 80 percent of the maximum certificated operating weight of the glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle and not greater than twice this operating weight.

(ii) A safety link is installed at the point of attachment of the towline to the towing aircraft with a breaking strength greater, but not more than 25 percent greater, than that of the safety link of the towed glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle end of the towline and not greater than twice the maximum certificated operating weight of the glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle.

= totally fucking insane.

Much of what I'm saying is "don't forget... too fast = bad too!"

Any chance you could repeat that another four or five times for us? We're a little slow on the uptake and, besides, we just never get tired of listening to blather on incessantly.

I very often see people locking onto the idea of "too slow = bad" so hard that they forget that you can overdo it.

Pity they're so stupid - and have such shitty instructors and flight park operators that these issues never seem to get worked out and settled.

Oh, and by the way. Jim... Does ANYONE ELSE ever ALSO see what YOU very often see?

Let's take a look at some relevant passages from this thread so far...

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/24 11:48:03 UTC

What I'm looking for when exiting the cart is what I call "sliding out of the cart". It's flying out of the cart, but without doing anything. This is determined by various adjustments, but that to me is the ideal exit... slipping into the air.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/24 12:20:06 UTC

I teach students to feel for the glider tugging against the rope and let the rope slide out of their hands.
...
I can't count the number of weaklinks I've seen break due to this alone.
It's not a horrible problem, but it just makes me shake my head.
The worst are people that pull in a bit "for sufficient flying speed", then push out of the cart (that never goes well).

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/26 11:34:17 UTC

I see people that are used to flying behind 582s breaking weaklinks behind 914s all the time.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/26 17:12:01 UTC

I actually see more bad launches due to leaving late than early, but then I do more towing with 914s than 582s, so naturally I'll see more of the 914 type errors.
In fact, when prepping someone that's used to a 914 for a tow behind a 582, I have to drive home the point of staying on the cart... that they'll feel like they're rolling forever, but that's ok.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/30 10:26:08 UTC

After the first couple weaklinks, they ask what's up (most often in the form of "can we tow slower?"... or my personal favorite "Why can't I use two weaklinks?") when I explain to them that taking the cart into the air with them might be counterproductive... that towing behind a 914 isn't the same as a 582... Then, amazingly, they stop breaking weaklinks.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/31 12:57:14 UTC

Much of what I'm saying is "don't forget... too fast = bad too!"
I very often see people locking onto the idea of "too slow = bad" so hard that they forget that you can overdo it.

Zack C - 2011/08/26 00:20:56 UTC

Wow. The irony. The arrogance. And people call Tad arrogant...I can see why you have so much contempt for this guy, Tad.

Ya think?

And here we have a passage in which Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney ISN'T (because he CAN'T) trying to pass himself off as The Great Messiah of Hang Glider AeroTowing:

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/30 10:26:08 UTC

At hiihgland aerosports, we actually use the reverse of that 'B' cradle.

A forced honest statement spoken as a regular human would - because he can't get away with taking sole credit for this remarkable and unique AT innovation.

So, if there were any actual substance to the crap he's spewing, competent regular Joes at all the operations would all be on the same page and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's statements and observations would all shift to first person PLURAL:

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/24 11:48:03 UTC

What we're looking for when exiting the cart is what we call "sliding out of the cart". It's flying out of the cart, but without doing anything. This is determined by various adjustments, but that to us is the ideal exit... slipping into the air.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/24 12:20:06 UTC

We teach students to feel for the glider tugging against the rope and let the rope slide out of their hands.
...
We can't count the number of weaklinks we've seen break due to this alone.
It's not a horrible problem, but it just makes us shake our heads.
The worst are people that pull in a bit "for sufficient flying speed", then push out of the cart (that never goes well).

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/26 11:34:17 UTC

We see people that are used to flying behind 582s breaking weaklinks behind 914s all the time.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/26 17:12:01 UTC

We actually see more bad launches due to leaving late than early, but then we do more towing with 914s than 582s, so naturally we'll see more of the 914 type errors.
In fact, when prepping someone that's used to a 914 for a tow behind a 582, we have to drive home the point of staying on the cart... that they'll feel like they're rolling forever, but that's ok.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/30 10:26:08 UTC

After the first couple weaklinks, they ask what's up (most often in the form of "can we tow slower?"... or my personal favorite "Why can't I use two weaklinks?") when we explain to them that taking the cart into the air with them might be counterproductive... that towing behind a 914 isn't the same as a 582... Then, amazingly, they stop breaking weaklinks.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/31 12:57:14 UTC

Much of what we're saying is "don't forget... too fast = bad too!"
We very often see people locking onto the idea of "too slow = bad" so hard that they forget that you can overdo it.

Get a decidedly reduced urge to beat his face into an unrecognizable pulp with this revision?

But there's a big Catch-22 problem for the lying little shit...

If there were any actual substance to the crap he's spewing then competent regular Joes at all the operations would all be on the same page and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney wouldn't BE The Great Messiah of Hang Glider AeroTowing and NONE of these (fake) problems would exist. Hang gliding students will do ANYTHING they're told to by their instructors - REGARDLESS of how moronic and insanely dangerous it is. And they'll keep doing it for DECADES regardless of how many of their dearest friends are consequently crippled or killed doing what they loved.

People will spend half their lives working on perfecting their flare timing...

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

...despite the facts that it can't be done and...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...dangerous as shit to even try.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

Ditto dude.

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.

Catch the first person plural there? We all know what we're doing and are all on the same page. And yet now The Great Messiah of Hang Glider AeroTowing is having to single-handedly solve all hang glider aerotowing's serious problems. Which means all of his mentors and colleagues are incompetent. But, three years later...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 06:04:23 UTC

Troll

Hahahaha.
That seriously made me chuckle.

I get what you're saying Christopher.
Please understand that I'm not advocating professional infalliblity. Not really sure where I mentioned that, but I can understand where you might have drawn that assumption. None the less, I simply refer to "us" as the "professional pilots" as a term to describe the pilots that do this for a living. Yes, we're just humans... bla bla bla... my point is that we do this a whole sh*tload more than the "average pilot"... and not just a little more... a LOT.

We discuss this stuff a lot more as well. We vet more ideas. This isn't just "neat stuff" to us... it's very real and we deal with it every day.

It's not "us" that has the track record... it's our process.
We're people just like anyone else. And that's the point. THIS is how we do it... normal, fallible humans... and it bloody well works.

So I don't give much credence to something that someone doesn't agree with about what we do for some theoretical reason.

Take this weaklink nonsense.
What do I "advocate"?
I don't advocate shit... I *USE* 130 test lb, greenspun cortland braided fishing line.
It is industry standard.
It is what *WE* use.

If someone's got a problem with it... we've got over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND TANDEM TOWS and COUNTLESS solo tows that argue otherwise. So they can politely get stuffed.

As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in reality... but does it work in theory?"
Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot

...he tells us muppets in no uncertain terms that he and all of his colleagues are just average Joes doing what they've always done 'cause it's always worked - that he's nothing but a regular Joe product of that incompetent culture.

And if they're competent he's on a different and thus incompetent and dangerous page so how come they haven't dealt with him?

It just about blows one's logic circuitry following the contradictions and Catch-22 impasses this dangerous parasite has managed to tangle together.

No, wait...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC

My response is short because I've been saying it for years... and yes, I'm a bit sick of it.
This is a very old horse and has been beaten to death time and time again... by a very vocal minority.

See, most people are happy with how we do things. This isn't an issue for them. They just come out and fly. Thing's aren't perfect, but that's life... and life ain't perfect. You do what you can with what you've got and you move on.

But then there's a crowd that "knows better". To them, we're all morons that can't see "the truth".
(Holy god, the names I've been called.)

I have little time for these people.

It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things. The fanaticism makes it extremely hard to have a conversation about these things as they always degrade into arguments. So I save the actual conversations for when I'm talking with people in person.

Things aren't perfect and he's not one of the secret elite actually working on things. GOT HIM.

Need a break...

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/31 12:57:14 UTC

Sounds like my "holding the bar in position" idea may need a bit more explanation.

Of course it will. Even at Ridgely and the other sleazy dumps you infest you seem to be the only one teaching it. Not even Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey at Quest or Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt at Manquin. Why do you think that is?

1st is I teach in broad strokes (notice I was speaking to "what I teach my students is...").

I'm guessing this is a masturbation thing? Is Davis responding well to this? I recall Jack as not being all that enamored in the long run.

Bear in mind, people of varying ages, that from here on in the portion of Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's post I'm addressing in this post he's talking about teaching his STUDENTS. That means Twos on Falcon flavor trainer gliders with TWO point bridles well trimmed with far forward keel anchor points flying only in morning and evening zilch wind glass.

And on that last issue there's a very interesting tell.

The only "wind" this motherfucker refers to / acknowledges in this bullshit post is propwash - which is a totally fake/non- issue. Propwash, particularly the 914 flavor, is just a fabrication of the Aerotow Industry it needed to be able to blame standard aerotow weak link pops on us muppet pilots. Totally analogous to the invisible dust devils that proved so useful for explaining the inconvenience death of Zack Marzec and the safe landing approach death of Joe Julik. They're both invisible in the environments in which we do 99 percent of our takeoffs and landings and its a bitch to debunk these bogus claims.

Propwash, now that I think of it, is very much analogous to the fake sharp rocks you're gonna grind your sidewires into if you do stomp tests. Both bogus excuses not to fix deadly problems which are needed because any deadly problem that ever gets fixed will make the commercial hang gliding industry people look like the lying and/or incompetent scumbags we know them to be and open up huge liability issues. Any time you hear an individual bring up the propwash issue you can be one hundred percent positive you're dealing with a scumbag.

And the only other type of air movement Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney - or, for that matter, anyone else - acknowledges in this thread is crosswind. Crosswind is acknowledged in the first place because it has to be. We're all launching in some degree of it all the fuckin' time, it's addressed in training, and it's no big fuckin' deal as long as both strength and direction don't get ridiculous (à la John Claytor). Plus Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney gets to use it to trump the genius of the Bobby Fucking-Genius Baileys who first recognized crosswinds in AT environments, went into their secret underground laboratories, and emerged several years later with dollies that could be adjusted to set safe pitch attitudes for different glider flavors.

These motherfuckers don't even acknowledge straight-down-the-runway headwinds - 'cause that would reveal all the 582/914 and propwash talk to be the crap that it is.

And they ESPECIALLY bend over backwards to not acknowledge turbulence, gusts, thermals, ACTUAL dust devils 'cause that's the stuff that neutralizes Hang Five skills and experience, locks out gliders in the kill zone, guarantees that the focal point of the safe towing system will increase the safety of the towing operation at the worst possible time, when the glider's climbing hard in a near stall situation.

Big concepts rather than fine detail.

- And that's just what YOU teach YOUR students. Nobody else at any other operations teaches HIS students in broad strokes because your standards and techniques are unmatchable.

- Big concept: Everybody flies with the standard aerotow weak link we put on Karen Carra's glider. Fine detail: Any three hundred pounder who doesn't like it can go fuck himself.

The details come later... gotta hit the big stuff first.

Like?:


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

Yes, when setup properly...

Are you sure you wanna do this properly? "Set up" is two words when you're doing the verb thing.

...the keel rotates first.

Then the leading edges, cross spars, and sail. Last but not least, the control frame.

I call it "the preview of coming attractions" (you're about to take off).

- Wow! That's very clever. I wonder why nobody else calls it "the preview of coming attractions".

- Do I get a say in when I take off? Do I have some ability to stay pulled in and hold onto the cart for a while? Or maybe abort the tow if something starts going wrong?

- So with YOU calling it "the preview of coming attractions" you seem to be implying that after the wing rotates there's substantial time elapsing before safe/desirable/optimal glider takeoff airspeed is achieved. Despite the awesome power and dazzling acceleration of the turbocharged 914 Dragonfly. (And let's not forget that the Great and Powerful 914 Dragonfly is still on the ground five minutes after the glider's lifted off.) Am I mistaken in that perception?

Our tandem glider takes off in the same manner, the keel rotates first, then it lifts off the ground.

Whoa! My glider noses up WITHOUT the keel rotating. I better take it to Hiih Gland Aerosports for a sail-off inspection.

http://aerosports.net/hangglide.html
Hang Gliding on Maryland's Eastern Shore with Highland Aerosports

Miscellaneous Services

Glider Annual Inspectioin* - $250.00

*Includes sail removal from airframe, complete airframe inspection, and any labor required for repairs. Cost of replacement parts not included.

If you wanna get a first rate professional Glider Annual Inspectioin you just can't beat the top notch guys at Hiih Gland Aerosports.

This provides a consistent cue for students.

Particularly the students we're sending up solo who haven't quite figured out that the glider will pitch down to trim when it's developing airspeed. (Two point students, remember?)

As you've pointed out, this is a function of the gliders resting AOA.

When the glider's RESTING it doesn't HAVE an Angle Of Attack - asshole. It has a PITCH ATTITUDE. Angle of attack doesn't come into play until the glider starts moving - preferably FORWARD. This glider:

09-00628
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1517/24907340511_e0696ea696_o.png


is pretty much resting. A moment before...

03-00527
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1521/24907352841_a25c1830ab_o.png


...it had a high PITCH ATTITUDE but a fairly low ANGLE OF ATTACK. Lotsa power and speed on the climb. But then the pulley anchor pulled loose and fixed whatever was going on back there by giving the glider the rope and the issue of angle of attack is pretty much off the table until after:

15-00921
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1461/24882605932_14a37e9798_o.png


(Notice the way Reidar goes from stuffed at the peak of the increase in the safety of the towing operation to full out to keep his glider from doing a Marzec the rest of the way back down?)

Do try to understand the distinction and implications before you start going too nuts with your fine detail blatherings.

You can of course make a glider not do this.

Do you know of a way to make a tandem glider not lift the harness of the asshole who was thinking about being Pilot In Command and dive it into the powerlines off of launch with a hooked in chick passenger while he's dangling from the basetube with the camera running?

Now, lock onto this idea too hard and you'll forget something that will compound things.

- Gawd I hate it when things are compounded. After things are compounded ya always gotta go back and waste a lot of time and effort uncompounding them.

- Wanna talk about being locked onto shit?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

If you forget to "resist the tug"...

- ...as so many of you stupid muppets do after the cart monkey asks you if you're set. He signals the tug to spool up his 914 engine. In a second or two the tug starts rolling and pressurizes the towline. Then he starts moving the glider forward with the cart monkey pushing a few steps to reduce the odds of the Rooney Link increasing the safety of the towing operation. Then the keel rotates. (I call this "the preview of coming attractions" (you're about to take off).)

And these things are always happening at such a blurring speed that you'll have ZERO chance of pushing yourself a few inches back into position. And even if you WERE able to react it's highly unlikely that you'd have the strength to counter the indescribably awesome power of the 914 - with its afterburners now blazing and scorching the turf two thirds of the way back to the glider.

- They're not resisting the tug - asshole. They're on two point bridles so they're only resisting HALF the tug. But when you're just pulling stuff outta your ass as it comes along and feeding it to us it tends to get a bit difficult to maintain a consistent narrative.

...as I put it...

...or, as most less talented instructors put it, "milking the goats"...

...(holding that bar in position prevents you from getting pulled through)...

...(by the half tension that's going to you - limited by the Rooney Link which blows all the fuckin' time with the glider straight and level and nothing going on)...

...the tug will pull you through the control frame while you're waiting for the keel to rotate.

- Yeah, right.

- And you're only allowed to continue waiting for the keel to rotate during the waiting period. Once you've been pulled through there's an ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT that you stay pulled through until after the keel has rotated.

Behind a 582, not too big of a deal.

Whether you're flying two point or one.

Behind a 914, things get a bit more dramatic.

- Gawd yeah! That INCREDIBLE *POWER*!
- So are things getting a bit more dramatic with a 914 two point than they would with a 582 one point?

As the keel rotates, you're now essentially pulling in...

- Bullshit, motherfucker. Being pulled through is essentially the opposite of pulling in.

- And, of course, there's no fuckin' WAY you could be essentially pushing out while the "keel" is rotating - the way we all do all the fuckin' time when we're airborne - on tow and off. We're qualified enough on pitch and roll control to solo aerotow but we're all just helpless blobs during the launch sequence. And if we're not just helpless blobs doing nothing we're almost certainly gonna be doing the opposite of what we should be doing - and, of course, to the maximum extent possible.

...even more (the glider's nose has come down relative to you).

So name something it WOULDN'T come down "relative to". A Turkey Vulture? The moon?

You're behind a 914, so it accelerating at a very rapid pace.

It accelerating at such a rapid pace, in fact, that it left the apostrophe and the s behind. It accelerating at such a rapid pace that we muppets, lacking the hummingbird caliber reaction times necessary to respond to such a crisis, would barely have the time to so much as go into shock.

This extra speed "pins" you to the cart.

And being "pinned" to the cart at the beginning of a tow is always a really BAD thing. You can't fly off because of all that extra speed "pinning" you down, you can't push out because you're so stupid you'll just pull in harder, you can't abort the tow 'cause your releases are within easy reach, the Rooney Link won't break when it's supposed to, the tug pilot who CAN fix whatever's going on back there never DOES... Nope. You just gotta stay "pinned" to the cart, watch the 914 Dragonfly take off and climb out, and wait for the fence off the end of the runway to come up and greet you.

Now you have to push out to get out of the cart.

- FUCK! I didn't think of that! I was too busy stuffing the bar - which was my natural backwards inclination. OK, I'm gonna push it all the way out now. If that doesn't work to get "unpinned" NOTHING will!

- Pure unadulterated moronic bullshit. If you get pulled through the bar as the tug starts moving, the glider responds by pitching UP and pinning the keel harder into the cradle. If you resist the pull you transmit its force through the basetube to the cradles/cart, it accelerates a bit more quickly/efficiently, the keel comes out of its cradle as the wing trims to the airspeed...

It's gonna do the precise opposite of what you're spewing but it's not gonna make any appreciable difference as long as you have the hold-downs and you don't get hit by a nasty crosswind gust just as the tug starts moving.

Now, you're at a high AOA...

- Right. Because obviously you pushed way the fuck out after you were pulled through and the glider pitched way the fuck up to a high AOA (which is strangely no longer limited by the keel cradle).

- Despite the fact that half of your tow tension is going to the trim point on the keel and helping to hold the glider down.

...going a million miles an hour...

While the VERY POWERFUL TURBOCHARGED 914...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3661
Flying the 914 Dragonfly

Jim Rooney - 2008/12/06 20:01:49 UTC

You will only ever need full throttle for the first fifty feet of a tandem tow. Don't ever pull a solo at full throttle... they will not be able to climb with you. You can tow them at 28 mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weaklinks will go left and right.

...is busy accelerating up to its 32 mph rotation speed...

...straight into the propwash.

OH MY GOD!!! NOT THE *PROPWASH*!!!!! That'll break my Rooney Link and increase the safety of the towing operation!

Or the glider goes negative and you faceplant.

Or, fuck... BOTH! You could simultaneously be at a high angle of attack going up a million miles an hour and going negative into a faceplant - also at a million miles an hour. (While the tug's going about 20-25.)

Little confused here, Jim. I don't have that keen intellect of yours.

Angle of attack, airspeed - same things. If you have a low angle of attack you, by definition, have a high airspeed. And vice versa. So if you have a high angle of attack you're going slow and if you're going a million miles an hour (low angle of attack) with a high pitch attitude you're going up like a fuckin' rocket - which is what your buddy Zack Marzec was doing the second or two before his Rooney Link permanently inconvenienced him.

I'm not speaking of theory here.

Course not. You have total shit for brains and have no clue what theory is - let alone any ability to understand it.

I see this crap a lot.

- Must be...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/11/12 14:49:58 UTC

One of the stated goals of this site is to promote HG. MOST views on this site are NOT from members but from visitors, they have no ignore button.

Having Tad run around every day giving the impression that there is a massive weekly slaughter of pilots at tow parks due to their horribly dangerous devices surely doesnt promote HG. Especially when the safety records are quite excellent.

Like Jim said, theyve gone a decade with no fatalities at their tow park. Pretty damn good I say.

Yet listening to Tad, you would think guys were dying all over the place
He's been nothing but misleading and negative and ignored multiple warnings from me. So He's GONE

...a real bloodbath over there at Hiih Gland Aerosports. Odd that we never hear any reports, get any posts on the Capitol rag, see any videos, hear similar stuff from Wallaby, Quest, Lockout, Cloud 9, Cowboy Up...

- I thought you were talking about students. And you see this crap a lot? Whose fault would that be?

- And you're seeing it "a lot"... Four possibilities:

-- There are tons of these incidents of horrendous high AOA whipstalls and faceplants:

--- and people are getting badly mangled all the time, and you and your dickhead buddies at Ridgely and Quest are suppressing one hundred percent of the incident reports

--- but the worst that happens is a slightly bent downtube every now and then so these aren't actual safety issues and the incidents don't merit mentions

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Oh how many times I have to hear this stuff.
I've had these exact same arguments for years and years and years.
Nothing about them changes except the new faces spouting them.

It's the same as arguing with the rookie suffering from intermediate syndrome.
They've already made up their mind and only hear that which supports their opinion.

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.

-- You're seriously delusional.

-- You're lying.

-- Some combination of the previous two: too stupid and no longer able to distinguish between what's actually happening on the runway and your incessant manufacturing of events. I should probably go with this one.

The more fictitious an incident or problem is the more this motherfucker runs his mouth about the problems and solutions. The more actual, deadly, systemic, and fixable an incident is...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

William Olive - 2013/02/27 20:55:06 UTC

Like the rest of us, you have no idea what really happened on that tow.
We probably never will know.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/28 01:17:55 UTC

Well said Billo
I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.

Ah but hg'ers get so uppity when you tell them not to speculate.

...the more aggressively this motherfucker - and his motherfucker buddies - will work to kill the discussion and any hope of progress.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/31 12:57:14 UTC

I think we're both saying much of the same stuff... too slow = bad, too fast = bad.
Much of what I'm saying is "don't forget... too fast = bad too!"
I very often see people locking onto the idea of "too slow = bad" so hard that they forget that you can overdo it.

Sounds like my "holding the bar in position" idea may need a bit more explanation.
1st is I teach in broad strokes (notice I was speaking to "what I teach my students is..."). Big concepts rather than fine detail. The details come later... gotta hit the big stuff first.

Yes, when setup properly the keel rotates first. I call it "the preview of coming attractions" (you're about to take off).
Our tandem glider takes off in the same manner, the keel rotates first, then it lifts off the ground.
This provides a consistent cue for students.
As you've pointed out, this is a function of the gliders resting AOA. You can of course make a glider not do this.
Now, lock onto this idea too hard and you'll forget something that will compound things.
If you forget to "resist the tug", as I put it (holding that bar in position prevents you from getting pulled through), the tug will pull you through the control frame while you're waiting for the keel to rotate.
Behind a 582, not too big of a deal.
Behind a 914, things get a bit more dramatic.
As the keel rotates, you're now essentially pulling in even more (the glider's nose has come down relative to you). You're behind a 914, so it accelerating at a very rapid pace. This extra speed "pins" you to the cart. Now you have to push out to get out of the cart. Now, you're at a high AOA, going a million miles an hour straight into the propwash. Or the glider goes negative and you faceplant.

I'm not speaking of theory here. I see this crap a lot.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

Meanwhile, back in reality...

http://scootertow.net/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=53
The Wills Wing Condor, 330 square feet of easy flying

Think of it as a Glider with Training Wheels

The Condor is a special purpose glider for use by instructors in a training environment only. If you can hang like a sack of potatoes, you can fly!

http://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4778/39004826790_90f4fd60c9_o.jpg

Pictured: Mr. Mitch Shipley, the instructor at Florida's Quest Air

- Flying pro toad. Nothing from the "tug" going up to the keel to trim the glider down.

- Big, slow, draggy Condor so it's gonna resist the tow / require proportionally more tension/power, climb slower, pitch up more.

- The "pilot" ("sack of potatoes") is doing as little as humanly (potatoly) possible to "resist the tug" / hold that bar in position and prevent him(it)self from getting pulled through.

Here's Davis about to:



eat it...



...in a worst (best) case scenario. The glider's being torqued forward and down by the tow tension because he's on a cart that everybody and his dog knew would start locking up near takeoff speed - and he's not getting pulled through the bar. The nose of the demo Sport wins the race to the runway out front and only when it stops does Davis catch up - (un)fortunately just missing the keel with his head.

Wanna see someone on tow ("pro") way the fuck through the bar?

03-02421
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7200/14097626583_03972773c6_o.png


Who's being pulled through the bar more and who's going down faster?

And if Steve resisted being pulled through the bar he'd be doing a Marzec increase in the safety of the towing operation in well under two seconds.

Videos, photos of pilots getting pulled through and pitched are nonexistent because that scenario is not permitted by the laws of physics. And I'm speaking of theory here. And theory will trump the crap Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney sees a lot any day of the week in any corner of the galaxy you wanna go to check it out.

The more forward you get pulled the more you're pulling on the glider and the faster it's gonna go to catch up. And when a wing goes fast it GOES UP as a byproduct of CATCHING UP.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/31 12:57:14 UTC

Behind a 914, things get a bit more dramatic.
As the keel rotates, you're now essentially pulling in even more (the glider's nose has come down relative to you). You're behind a 914, so it accelerating at a very rapid pace. This extra speed "pins" you to the cart. Now you have to push out to get out of the cart. Now, you're at a high AOA, going a million miles an hour straight into the propwash. Or the glider goes negative and you faceplant.

I'm not speaking of theory here.

Who said you WERE?

I see this crap a lot.

Who said you DON'T?

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble

Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.

Anybody doubt this statement? Or:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).

Adam doesn't say:

I'm not speaking of theory here... I actually saw this crap! I see this crap a LOT!

Doesn't need to. We've ALL seen - and experienced - this crap a lot. We see it, experience it, crash, watch crashes, see videos, read incident and fatality reports.

Other participants in this thread: Davis Straub, Bill Jacques, Tommy Thompson, Gerry Grossnegger, George Stebbins, Rob Clarkson, Detective Shaft, Bernard Winnkelmann, Dustin Martin, Marc Fink, Strega, Bart Doets, Mark G. Forbes, Damien Gates, Supine Pilot, Bart Weghorst, Ron Gleason, David Glover.

Every one of those eighteen individuals has at least some AT experience, a few have TONS. Then there's observations while people are in launch lines and hanging out, word o' mouth stuff, reports, video surfing, forum discussions. That represents a data reservoir which fuckin' DWARFS what you could possibly have personally observed.

And yet not one of those individuals chimes in with anything or backs you up in any way. And a dozen posts from now Bart Weghorst is gonna flatly contradict you with a rational post (yes, even from Bart) supported by observable dynamics, experience, common sense, THEORY. And neither you nor anybody else is gonna contradict him on so much as a punctuation mark. You're gonna do what you always do when you get caught spewing bullshit... Not acknowledge that the submission and its author exist.

You are full of shit. You are LYING.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.

As usual.

01-02302
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2912/14241586524_e362fe20d8_o.png


Typical Ridgely 914 launch - 0:23:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1RElrIC870


03-02921
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5541/13949103241_d3aa2247dd_o.png


Boooooring...

It generally starts with someone that's been behind 582s.

Yeah. About 75 percent of the zero such incidents we see involved somebody who started behind a 582. It's such a problem that u$hPa will soon be amending its AT SOPs such that 582 tows count AGAINST your AT proficiency. For every 582 flight you take you've gotta do two 914s to compensate. Otherwise if you get below a balance of five your AT ticket is suspended.

I don't know why hang gliding doesn't just swap out all the 582 engines and sell them to snowmobilers. All they're doing is undermining proper 914 techniques and leading to untold tens of thousands of Rooney Link increases in the safety of the towing operations. Davis notes in no uncertain terms that they're way underpowered even for solo when the runway's at 5500' AGL. 582s can't possibly be cost effective when they're generating all those inconveniences and "free" relights. (And I'm totally serious about that point. The real cost of 130 pound Greenspot one-size-fits-all fishing line has gotta dwarf the startup price difference between the two engines.)

I very often hear "I pull in a tad on the cart and wait for it to get lifted off the ground" a lot too (582 technique) when I discuss why someone's breaking weaklink after weaklink at 5ft in smooth morning air.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 16:45:39 UTC

I am more than happy to have a stronger weaklink and often fly with the string used for weaklinks used at Wallaby Ranch for tandem flights (orange string - 200 lbs). We used these with Russell Brown's (tug owner and pilot) approval at Zapata after we kept breaking weaklink in light conditions in morning flights.

- Oh.

-- That's what he tells you. That he pulls in a Tad (Fuck that Tad guy. A convicted paedophile, I kid you not, and deranged megalomaniac.) on the cart and waits for it to get lifted off the ground. He doesn't just push out a little and lift the front of the cart a couple inches to confirm that he's got airspeed before separating. He stays pulled in and waits until the entire cart is airborne (582 technique). And after that he BLASTS up to five feet where he breaks weak link after weak link in the smooth morning air - always expecting different results. Suck my dick, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney.

-- Always at five feet. Never above or below that. So what you're revealing is that someone is doing a totally competent and precise job of launching his glider. Comes off the cart at appropriate speed stabilizes low - which means he's not blasting up on a Mach 5 takeoff, starts hanging out in ideal position to wait for the TURBOCHARGED 914 DRAGONFLY to rotate and get airborne. Fuckin' textbook. You're not revealing HIS incompetence and cluelessness. You're revealing YOURS and RIDGELY'S. Not to mention...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

...Davis's, Russell's, Quest's, pretty much any AT Industry player you wanna name.

- Why is a guy who shows up with his own Sport 2, an AT rating, and 582 experience flying in smooth morning air? Does Ridgely have its own extrajudicial 914 tow certification program?

- Sounds to me like one is better off having zero AT experience than a couple hundred 582 tows under his belt. Right?

- Sure is a good thing you got that guy straightened out on breaking weak link after weak link at five feet in smooth morning air, Jim. Too bad you're so totally fucking useless for helping real hang glider pilots...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

...do anything along the lines of what a hang glider is designed and intended to do and what they got out of bed to do.

- Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Lauren Tjaden - 2011/08/01 02:01:06 UTC

For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.

I rarely break weak links -- in fact, I believe the last one was some two years ago, and I have never broken one on a tandem (probably because I am light and also because I change them whenever they show any signs of wear). They are a good thing to have, though!!

...appears to believe that FLYING WEIGHT has some small bearing on the issue of Rooney Link survivability. And I never heard Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Davis Dead-On Straub, a single individual participating in or having access to that thread disagree with or question that point? So is that a legitimate issue with respect to Rooney Link pops or not?

27 mentions of weak links in this 75 post thread. NOT ONE SINGLE RELEVANT MENTION of pounds of:
- weak link strength - or even a description of what and where it is
- glider weight or capacity
- normal 582 and 914 towing tensions
- dolly:
-- total weight
-- front end (hold-downs lift) weight
Just ceaseless moronic crap about dramatic wingloading changes, propwash, carts being lifted off the ground, 582 and 914 techniques, spool-up times, the horrors of being pulled through the control frame to under the nose, 582 "asphalt grinder" horror stories, being dragged around by the nose when using three point bridles. Like talking about icecap melting, sea level rise, droughts, floods, superstorms, mass extinctions without happening to mention fossil fuel burning.

- A bit odd that we never seem to hear anything about the miraculous low level lockout saves being executed by the focal point of Ridgley’s safe towing system once or twice a weekend. All we hear about is them breaking when the glider's under total control in perfect position in both smooth morning air and epic soaring conditions. And Hiih Gland Aerosports just became history? Big fuckin' surprise.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6408
Highland : Party Sat Oct 25 & Seminar Spring 2015

Ward Odenwald - 2014/08/30 01:44:02 UTC

To enhance towing safety, Highland will present a seminar that covers the science and art of staying on tow in both smooth and thermic air at the beginning of the 2015 season (3rd or 4th Saturday of March). This learning event should be considered a "must attend" for all who fly at Highland or tow elsewhere!

Real pity we never got to and now will never get to hear any of this critical information on the science and art of staying on tow in both smooth and thermic air. Maybe Hiih Gland read your Davis Show posts and realized they didn't have the slightest fucking clues about either the science or art of keeping a glider on tow in either smooth or thermic air.

Every conversation with a new to the area pilot begins with "so, have you towed behind a 914 before?"

- Not, of course, "So what's your flying weight and what weak link does your glider manufacturer recommend...

Aerotow Release Attachment Points for Wills Wing Gliders
Rob Kells

Always use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less.

...for your model and size?"

- You mean every conversation YOU have with a new-to-the-area pilot begins with, "So, have you towed behind a 914 before?"? Otherwise how the fuck do you know how every conversation begins?

- Sounds like "the area" is Ridgely? How come they don't just have something on their website to tune in the 582 muppets to the special hazards of 914 towing and the oh-so-simple techniques for neutralizing them?

- Sounds like flight parks NOT in "the area" aren't having these conversations. You'd think that after fifteen or twenty serious 914 induced launch crashes all areas would be having these conversations. And u$hPa would've put out an advisory. And there'd be discussions involving victims on the Jack and Davis Shows. And lotsa videos.

- Ever have any discussions about setting gliders up with weak links optimized for glider capacities? Or do ya just give the 350 pound glider the same loop of magic fishing line you just gave the 200 pound glider?

- And if he says no you start blathering on about 582 versus 914 techniques, cart adjustment, dramatic wingloading changes, Mach 5 takeoffs, propwash, shockloading, laws designating the tug driver as Pilot In Command of the glider, home made equipment, the Rooney Link track record, the genius of the bent pin barrel release... And by the time you're finished it's dark and the 582 guy is fifteen IQ points stupider than he was when he was setting up his glider.

Something I think maybe getting lost in translation here too...

Who really gives a flying fuck about what's getting lost in translation in some intellectually castrated Davis Show discussion?

I don't tow at trim. On 2 point...

...or what Gerry, Bernard, Tommy, Damien, and Supine have referred to as one point...

...I don't set my VG for hands off towing.

You couldn't with a gun to your head, asshole. You can pull VG to make it EASIER to pull for speed but you're still gonna need to pull the whole tow to keep the glider down.

...I don't setup 3 point systems to tow hands off either.

Fuck no. Why would anyone in his right mind want his glider to trim level with the tug?

I want bar pressure. Not a lot, but hands off my gliders climb on tow.

- And don't bother telling us WHY YOU want bar pressure. And do you also set your hang point way back for free flight bar pressure? No? Why not?

Not a lot? Can you think of any possible downside to:

06-03114
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Nah, just kidding. None of this trim shit has anything to do with SAFETY. Just an issue of what YOU PREFER. If it was a factor relevant to SAFETY that would open up a can of worms you AT Industry motherfuckers really can't afford to have opened.

Setting up a launch cart for me is a balancing act.

Whoa! I'd say you're in pretty deep shit then. While everything you do is an act you majorly suck in the balance department.

Set it too low and the glider rotates.

I HATE IT when gliders rotate!

Set it right and the glider barely rotates.

That's better - but it's still rotating a little bit.

Set it too high and when you come out of the cart, the tail drops maybe an inch in the extreme case.

Well that doesn't sound too bad...



Pity nobody remembered to tell Julia the worst that can happen in the extreme case the tail dropping maybe an inch.

If you set it TOO HIGH the glider CAN'T come out of the cart 'cause it's being pitched down into a dive.

If you get a low pitched glider out of a cart the keel won't be able to drop until it clears the cradle as the cart decelerates. And if there's much chance of the launch being survivable the glider's gonna be climbing - and bring the back end of its keel with it.

Setting it on the high side means you've already "pulled in" (far less so than the "I pulled in a tad" comments btw).

Bullshit. As soon as the glider rotates the cradle and its setting become one hundred percent irrelevant. If the fucking cradle is anywhere near in contact with the keel after the wing goes dynamic you and your asshole launch monkey have majorly screwed the pooch and this isn't an issue we need to waste time talking about. That's a what-to-do-after-you've-skipped-your-hook-in-check-again-and-have-launched-unhooked discussion. Fuck it. Ditto for the assholes who do their sidewire load tests just off the front of the ramp.

Setting it on the low side means that when the glider rotates, keeping the bar in position has the effect of pulling in (the gliders nose has come down).

Bullshit. Setting it on the low side means that until the wing trims you're more and totally unnecessarily vulnerable to nasty air. Once the glider rotates you're doing one hundred percent irrelevancy again. Like if you discover that you're hooked in just after you leave the ramp it made no difference whatsoever that you didn't do a hook-in check two seconds prior to launch. Probably won't next time either.

But that's all fine detail.

That's all nauseating pompous moronic drivel.

I'm not dealing with the extremes that would necessitate pushing out of the cart.

I'm not setting carts that far out of whack.

Amazing. I think you've finally found your true calling. Maybe you could teach some of us stupid weekender muppets how to not set OUR carts that far out of whack.

And then once we get airborne it doesn't really matter if our glider's too far out of whack...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Lauren Tjaden - 2011/08/01 02:01:06

For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.

We've all got our Rooney Links to save us - often. Which is a real good thing seeing as how all we stupid hang glider pilots are all too fuckin' stupid to get off tow...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

...when we get too far out of whack.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use 2 hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

No stress because you were high, right Lauren? When your tandem Tad-O-Link didn't break when it was supposed to? And with Jim Prahl somehow managing to survive the tandem on the Tad-O-Link doing big wingovers while you were working on prying your Industry Standard releases open?

So I find the broad stroke of "hold the bar in position" to be rather effective.

Please teach some of us muppets how to "hold the bar in position". I've been working on that for years and still I remain no closer to success than I am in perfecting my flare timing.

Your Millage May Vary

I know my spelling of millage does. But I'm just a weekender muppet who flies homemade Tad-O-Links and you're an elite PROFESSIONAL PILOT product of (now extinct) Hiih Gland Aerosports... So what do I know.

Anybody's got that pathetic a proficiency with grade school level English when it's his native language needs to be studiously ignored on issues of aviation. That's not to say that he can't possibly be right on anything - just to say that your time will be much better spent looking for an author who has the ability to get that much right and gives a flying fuck about doing so.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Damien Gates - 2007/08/31 20:27:18 UTC

Worlds apart but I think we are on the same page

Then fuck you and the horse you rode in on, Tex.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/31 22:02:46 UTC

search: hang glide maryland
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2RL4AhNNJg


0:06
Classic 582 tow with unadjustable cart.

Yeah. Obviously...

01-00710


No question whatsoever that there's a 582 at the front end of the string. Night and day.

Notice how he has enough time to look at his vario.

- Notice how we have no fuckin' clue how long or far the glider's been rolling since the clip starts with the glider having tons of speed and, from when we can first discern a ghost of the glider fading in, is 1.6 seconds from...

02-00804

03-00818

04-00908


...liftoff.

- Right. Tell me how much time one needs to sacrifice from hanging under the glider like a sack of potatoes to glance at a vario mounted where it can most easily be seen in flight.

- Also notice that he's flying 1.5 point - pilot and pilot's suspension at the carabiner a foot or so below the keel.

05-01020


See the angle on the suspension this induces and how far forward he is? That help ya understand what's going on with the physics with 1, 1.5, and 2 point towing? Just kidding. That's THEORY which makes it total rubbish.

What a total fucking moron this Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney is using this clip to show how slow the acceleration is with a 582. We can tell ABSOLUTELY *NOTHING*.

On the Dragonfly promo tour at Currituck 1991/08 - Bill Moyes, Bobby Bailey, all the Quallaby players - they were talking about launching in high headwinds. They'd launch the tow like a hang glider Assisted Windy Cliff Launch. Strut crew on the Dragonfly, wire crew on the glider. Both planes already flying before they even start moving forward. How is one supposed to tell ANYTHING useful knowing NOTHING about wind, density altitude, throttle setting, strap-/hook-in weights, glider size and performance - not to mention what happened prior to the 1.1 seconds we saw before glider liftoff? Serious Fetal Alcohol Syndrome with a healthy dose of lead poisoning for good measure.

And is anybody gonna call him on this?

914 tows, adjustable keels...
1:02

10-05928

11-10217

12-10302

13-10405

1:05

14-10506

15-10522

16-10615

1:40

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23-14213


Good selection there, Jim. In none of those do we get to see the beginning of the roll. In your 1:05 the wing's rotated prior to the first frame.

Also... Seven launches in this video. You only reference four of them. If there's such a fucking dramatic difference between 582 and 914 how come you're not calling the other three?

The first launch on the video is Sunny (flying marc's glider).

Fuck both of them. Marc's a miserable little Industry cocksucker and Sunny's totally useless.

Notice that he actually winds up pulling in as he leaves the cart... he's not pushing out of the cart.

Yeah...

02-02405
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http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7200/14097626583_03972773c6_o.png
03-02421

Go figure.

Bull fucking shit. We can't tell what he's doing with the bar. All we can tell is his position relative to it. He's flying 1.5 point, majorly untrimmed so the glider WILL climb when it has the airspeed and is allowed to. Bar back doesn't automatically mean PULLED/PULLING back. But that's just THEORY - certainly doesn't carry the weight of the crap you see all the time.

By the way... Any comment on the basetube mounted release actuator...

09-04100


...we see being triggered at 1:26?

17-12603

18-12613

19-12619

20-12913


Does that have any relevance to the safety of the towing operation? Or is that just a style thing with no bearing on the discussion whatsoever?

No one is carrying carts into the air. (not even John behind the 582)

- Which is where?

- Great, Jim. Now show us a video of someone deliberately carrying a cart into the air. (Notice the way the little shit consistently uses "carrying carts into the air" to describe lifting the front two inches for half a second at liftoff.)

No, wait...


Peter Holloway on aero towing

Peter Holloway - 2013/02/04 10:05 UTC

http://vimeo.com/58874610


So, first rule, or first mistake, people come out of the dolly too early. I want to see the dolly lift off the ground and physically get dropped from about ten or twenty centimeters. I want to see it bounce.

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http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31392
Peter Holloway on aerotowing

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/13 08:24:27 UTC

I like this guy

Real straight forward and drives home the things that actually matter.
Bloody good.

Jackie... one thing to note, and it's a bit of a nit picky thing so don't pay it too much mind cuz this guy is spot on!
The "lift the cart into the air" is a 582 tug thing. It doesn't work so well behind 914s. But yeah, behind 582s, go for it.

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And certainly go for it with all the enthusiasm we see Peter's students have in this instructional video.

Notice the Dragonfly is climbing out while the glider's leaving the cart? On his way to a nasty lockout?

115-043723
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Good job getting that airspeed message across, Peter. (And how'd ya like that cart bounce?)

I like this guy

Real straight forward and drives home the things that actually matter.
Bloody good.

Funny that this guy you like so much who's so straight forward and drives home the things that actually matter isn't driving home this problem of carrying the cart into the air à la 582 with 914. I would've thunk all you AT pros would be well tuned in and all on the same page. And here we are at the end of Page 5 still hashing out the problem of breaking weak link after weak link in smooth morning air as a consequence of using 518 technique on 914 tows.

Peter Holloway - 2013/03/15 23:40:54 UTC

Hi guys, we are indeed flying behind a 582 dragonfly.

022-010614
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Thanks for your thoughtful and helpful comments Jim, cheers Peter H

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Mark G. Forbes - 2007/09/01 01:39:39 UTC

914 launches

Jim, just wondering here...

Is it reasonable to not go to full throttle right off with the 914-powered tug, to give a 582-familiar pilot a bit of a transition? I realize the 914 provides a lot more thrust...

Which, we all know from reading Hang Gliding Magazine, is a bad thing...

Jerry Forburger - 1990/10

High line tensions reduce the pilot's ability to control the glider and we all know that the killer "lockout" is caused by high towline tension.

A lot more thrust produces high line tensions which reduce the pilot's ability to control the glider. And we all know that the killer "lockout" is caused by high towline tension.

Any time you wanna increase the pilot's ability to control the glider and eliminate the danger of the killer "lockout" just....

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...



Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

...cut back on the thrust...

http://www.ocala.com/article/20160219/ARTICLES/160219707?p=1&tc=pg
Hang glider had dreamed of flying solo from a mountain | Ocala.com

Austin L. Miller - 2016/02/19 16:13 EST



The third flight was going fine until the wing lifted, he said. Then Banevicius corrected and over-corrected. He went right, and the glider began to turn toward downwind. Donovan said they cut the power and the nose of the glider may have popped up. It then went to the right and hit the ground.

...and increase the pilot's ability to control the glider with the inconvenient "stall".



Or just put a loop of 130 pound Greenspot fishing line on one end of the glider's bridle. Fail-safe. Eliminates the pilot and driver from equation. Very long track record.

...but can you ramp it up a little slower and give the dope on the rope time to adapt?

- Fuck that. Just use the minimum you need to get airborne and leave it there. Why do anything to increase the probability of inducing the killer "lockout"? Plus you'll be giving the dope on the rope lotsa time to adapt to blowing his easily reachable release - 'specially if he's one of those guys who stays locked out a little longer 'cause he thinks he can fix a bad thing and doesn't wanna start over while his standard aerotow weak link, surprisingly, isn't breaking when it's supposed to.

- Fuck the dope or the rope. Once ya start going down the road of adjusting the tow for HIS benefit he's gonna start insisting on releases he can use without losing control of the glider and weak links that don't override his decision to stay on tow. He's a passenger - with the same rights and responsibilities of a skydiver. ('Cept, of course, whenever anything bad happens to either plane. Then we all agree that whatever it was was entirely his fault.) We've got Pilot In Command up front. Let's not start looking for ways to make things better of the glider and undermine the Pilot's authority.

- No dude. It's all or nuthin'. Everybody knows that. Where the fuck did you get *YOUR* ATP rating? The flight park Tad runs?

Seems like you could go a little slower to start, then pour the coal on once he's rolling well and starting to lift off.

Fuck that. What's the point in having 115 turbocharged horsepower if you're not gonna use it all the time?

Or are there other factors?

Well, what you're proposing is technically possible in a theoretical sort of way. But there ARE other factor, which is why it isn't done. Most of these other factor can't really be appreciated without a thorough understanding of Navier-Stokes equations and I'm afraid that explaining them to you is beyond the scope of this discussion. But rest assured that we've got all this sussed out pretty well.

MGF
(582-powered Mustang 19 trike tug)

582? I like that. Gotta be a lot safer than a 914.

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

Yes, it's technically possible in a theoretical sort of way.
Yes, there are other factor, which is why it isn't done...

See? Toldyaso.

First off I guess is that a simple conversation fixes the problem, or the problem is unfixable.
Let me explain.

No. We're good. It's technically possible in a theoretical sort of way, but there are other factor, which is why it isn't done. And while first off you guess is that a simple conversation fixes the problem, or the problem is unfixable.

More illiterate incoherent blathering will only serve to confuse us.

See one side is lack of information, the idea that 914s require a different launch technique.

- Yeah. We haven't yet had enough of that information...

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/25 02:24:44 UTC

582 / 914 = all the difference in the world.
It's a pointless discussion otherwise.

That's what I'm getting at here... it's a 582 technique that works with 582s, but it's counter productive behind 914s.
This is one of those night and day things.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/26 11:34:17 UTC

582 technique... let me explain
Yes, it's the accelleration. 115hp gets you flying much quicker.
Add to this the fact that it's a 4 stroke engine so it develops power imediately. A 582 has to spool up. It develops power much more gradually.
That transitional time in the cart where the glider is flying, but just barely, gets extremely short behind a 914.
Where as with a 582, it's a noticeable thing. With a 914, it's over in an instant.
So waiting till you're lifting the cart, which can help behind a 582, can actually become a hindrance behind a 914.
See in the window for holding the cart "a few inches" becomes an instant... then you're in the 'radically cahnging your wingloading' arena.
You'd have to get a pretty knarly wind shift behind a 914 for it to matter... you're accellerating around twice as fast.
I see people that are used to flying behind 582s breaking weaklinks behind 914s all the time.
The worst are people that pull in a bit "for sufficient flying speed", then push out of the cart (that never goes well).

Consider footlaunching for example.
Footlaunching has a much more distinct "akward" time, where the glider is flying but not fully supporting your weight.
Behind a 582, you get to 'moon walk' a long time.
Behind a 914, as soon as you start to moon walk, I litterally yank you off the ground (I add power). A 582 hasn't yet spoolled up enough to do this.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/30 10:26:08 UTC

At hiihgland aerosports, we actually use the reverse of that 'B' cradle.
The font is rounded to a smooth incline... works very well.
Yes, the concern is "sticking" in the cart too long.

Everyone has thier 582 "asphalt grinder" horror story to tell... but they all start the same way... "I was towing behind a 582

Yes, you can leave the cart too early, even behind a 914 (you just have to try harder), but guess what? You can leave late too. And more often than not, people used to 582s that get behind 914s do so, then they break weaklinks at 5 feet off the ground because they fail to adjust thier techniques to match the launch conditions. The regularity of this is saddening.

After the first couple weaklinks, they ask what's up (most often in the form of "can we tow slower?"... or my personal favorite "Why can't I use two weaklinks?") when I explain to them that taking the cart into the air with them might be counterproductive... that towing behind a 914 isn't the same as a 582... Then, amazingly, they stop breaking weaklinks.

Read Davis's latest towing storry (cowboy up)... 582 at high altitude. Notice that he, a very experienced tow pilot, has to (and does) adjust quite significantly to the launch conditions. Now imagine taking someone that's used to flying there and move them to sealevel behind a 914. You might want to have some spare weaklinks handy.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/31 12:57:14 UTC

Tex
I don't know if we're in all that much disagreement or debate or misunderstanding.
It's good to get people thinking about all these issues.

I think we're both saying much of the same stuff... too slow = bad, too fast = bad.
Much of what I'm saying is "don't forget... too fast = bad too!"
I very often see people locking onto the idea of "too slow = bad" so hard that they forget that you can overdo it.

Sounds like my "holding the bar in position" idea may need a bit more explanation.
1st is I teach in broad strokes (notice I was speaking to "what I teach my students is..."). Big concepts rather than fine detail. The details come later... gotta hit the big stuff first.

Yes, when setup properly the keel rotates first. I call it "the preview of coming attractions" (you're about to take off).
Our tandem glider takes off in the same manner, the keel rotates first, then it lifts off the ground.
This provides a consistent cue for students.
As you've pointed out, this is a function of the gliders resting AOA. You can of course make a glider not do this.
Now, lock onto this idea too hard and you'll forget something that will compound things.
If you forget to "resist the tug", as I put it (holding that bar in position prevents you from getting pulled through), the tug will pull you through the control frame while you're waiting for the keel to rotate.
Behind a 582, not too big of a deal.
Behind a 914, things get a bit more dramatic.
As the keel rotates, you're now essentially pulling in even more (the glider's nose has come down relative to you). You're behind a 914, so it accelerating at a very rapid pace. This extra speed "pins" you to the cart. Now you have to push out to get out of the cart. Now, you're at a high AOA, going a million miles an hour straight into the propwash. Or the glider goes negative and you faceplant.

I'm not speaking of theory here. I see this crap a lot.
It generally starts with someone that's been behind 582s.
I very often hear "I pull in a tad on the cart and wait for it to get lifted off the ground" a lot too (582 technique) when I discuss why someone's breaking weaklink after weaklink at 5ft in smooth morning air.

Every conversation with a new to the area pilot begins with "so, have you towed behind a 914 before?"

Something I think maybe getting lost in translation here too...
I don't tow at trim. On 2 point, I don't set my VG for hands off towing. I don't setup 3 point systems to tow hands off either. I want bar pressure. Not a lot, but hands off my gliders climb on tow.

Setting up a launch cart for me is a balancing act.
Set it too low and the glider rotates.
Set it right and the glider barely rotates.
Set it too high and when you come out of the cart, the tail drops maybe an inch in the extreme case.
Setting it on the high side means you've already "pulled in" (far less so than the "I pulled in a tad" comments btw).
Setting it on the low side means that when the glider rotates, keeping the bar in position has the effect of pulling in (the gliders nose has come down).
But that's all fine detail.
I'm not dealing with the extremes that would necessitate pushing out of the cart.
I'm not setting carts that far out of whack.

So I find the broad stroke of "hold the bar in position" to be rather effective.
Your Millage May Vary

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/31 22:02:46 UTC

search: hang glide maryland
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2RL4AhNNJg


0:06
Classic 582 tow with unadjustable cart.
Notice how he has enough time to look at his vario.

914 tows, adjustable keels...
1:02
1:05
1:40

The first launch on the video is Sunny (flying marc's glider).
Notice that he actually winds up pulling in as he leaves the cart... he's not pushing out of the cart.
No one is carrying carts into the air. (not even John behind the 582)

- Unless you dumb down the 914 - as per Mark's question - and make it a virtual 582.

And you've just realized that you've painted yourself into a corner but good and revealed yourself to be the off-the-scale stupid mega-asshole the handful of people in this sport with functional brains have always known you to be.

You needed to explain why these one-size-fits-all miracle links you fucking geniuses worked out decades ago (long before you arrived) are blowing every other tow with the glider holding at five feet straight behind the tug in smooth morning air. So you manufactured a ten-layer crap cake with ingredients of:
- 582 technique
- accelleration
- engine spoolling
- transitional time
- the 'radically cahnging your wingloading' arena
- everyone having thier 582 "asphalt grinder" horror story to tell
- people taking the cart into the air with them
- people locking onto the idea of "too slow = bad" so hard that they forget that you can overdo it
- getting pulled through the control frame while you're waiting for the keel to rotate
- being at a high AOA going a million miles an hour straight into the 914 hogwash
- going negative and faceplanting
- the balancing act of setting up a launch cart
- varying millage
- stupid hang glider muppets incapable of ever learning anything and adjusting their takeoffs accordingly.

And SO INSISTENT that:

I'm not speaking of theory here. I see this crap a lot.

in an effort to scam the stupid muppets who NEVER see any of this crap - like they never see Rooney Links increasing the safety of the towing operation or tug drivers fixing whatever's going on back there by giving anybody the rope.

07-300

I see people that are used to flying behind 582s breaking weaklinks behind 914s all the time.
The worst are people that pull in a bit "for sufficient flying speed", then push out of the cart (that never goes well).

So you know EXACTLY who all the 582 muppets are and you know that...

The other is a pilots willingness to adjust.

...they're never in a million years gonna be willing to adjust - despite all the excellent instruction and coaching they're getting from all you professional AT skygods. But they're breaking weak link after weak link at five feet in smooth morning air.

So your choices are:

- Do an infinite number of "free" relights with the same muppets in smooth morning air always expecting better results. (Actually most of these guys are gonna crash after just a few cycles 'cause if they're too fucking stupid to be able to learn 914 technique there's no way in hell they'll ever be able to get their flare timing perfected enough to reliably cope with the inconvenient increases in the safety of the towing operation.)

- Accept the fact that these muppets are incapable of learning 914 technique and just launch them successfully ONCE dumbed down to 65 horsepower in smooth morning air.

But...

Yes, it's technically possible in a theoretical sort of way.
Yes, there are other factor, which is why it isn't done...

Fuckin' muppets. Just no willingness to adjust to anything.

Keep using that renowned keen intellect of yours to try to blather your way out of this one, motherfucker. Davis has got his "forum" shielded so's it can only be viewed by the individuals he permits but Kite Strings is totally public. And as of yesterday - last fall really - Kite Strings has outlasted Hiih Gland Aerosports. One more malignant growth on the sport gone forever.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

Yes, it's technically possible in a theoretical sort of way.
Yes, there are other factor, which is why it isn't done...

First off I guess is that a simple conversation fixes the problem, or the problem is unfixable.

And, if it's unfixable, what the fuck. We just keep towing them. Just 'cause they're too fuckin' clueless, stupid, inept, incompetent to be able to ease a bar out at an appropriate airspeed behind a 914 in smooth morning air doesn't mean they won't be fine:
- releasing and starting over instead of trying to fix a bad thing
- reacting to a Rooney Link increasing the safety of the towing operation
- taking off in the afternoon in thermal conditions
- going up nicely centered in the Cone of Safety so as to endanger neither themselves nor their tug pilots
- pitching out abruptly to actuate their Voight/Rooney instant hands free releases when the Cone of Safety doesn't work
- checking out traffic and coming back into the LZ without going into the pond, clipping parked gliders, flying into taxiway signs
- landing in waist high wheat at the ends of their XC flights

Let me explain.
See one side is lack of information, the idea that 914s require a different launch technique.

So nobody's got time to tell that to the pilots breaking weak link after weak link in smooth morning conditions. Just easier to keep moving them back to the head of the launch line for free relights. A lot cheaper, too.

Your launch monkeys are unable to address this issue for the problem people of varying ages 'cause they only have time to make sure everybody has a buckled helmet, the main and backup, a locked carabiner, and an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less.

You've got u$hPa's 2003 Hang Gliding Instructor of the Year Award winner Sunny Venesky over there but you can't teach people how to ease off a cart behind a 914.

So what is it you assholes CAN teach? How come the US Navy is able to teach people to blast off carriers, shoot down enemy fighters, and snag the third wire on a heaving deck when they come back home and you assholes can't teach people to fly kites into the air at thirty miles per hour?

The other is a pilots willingness to adjust.

So they need a willingness to adjust?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Oh how many times I have to hear this stuff.
I've had these exact same arguments for years and years and years.
Nothing about them changes except the new faces spouting them.

It's the same as arguing with the rookie suffering from intermediate syndrome.
They've already made up their mind and only hear that which supports their opinion.

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.

Nobody's talking about 130lb weaklinks? (oh please)
Many reasons.
Couple of 'em for ya... they're manufactured, cheap and identifiable.

See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins... I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.

If they won't adjust why are you flying them? Why don't you just tell them to go fuck themselves the way you do Tad-O-Linkers and equipment developers?

You're not MAKING money off them. You're...

Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

We recommend that the weak link insert are replaced after 200 starts: AN INSERT EXCHANGED IN TIME IS ALWAYS SAFER AND CHEAPER THAN AN ABORTED LAUNCH.

...LOSING it BIGTIME. And you're fucking up the flight line for everybody who's been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who and wants to get airborne before the air gets nice and glassy again.

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2014/03/14
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
11. Hang Gliding Special Skill Endorsements
-A. Special Skills attainable by Novice
-D. Aerotow

05. Demonstrates successful, confident, controlled launches and flight under tow to release at altitude with a tandem pilot, with a smooth release and turn to the right when transitioning to free flight.

You're towing people who aren't qualified to pass a u$hPa Hang 2.0 Special Skill.

So tell me how anything you do IS about safety and ISN'T about who can degrade and who will and won't suck your dick?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

Yes, it's technically possible in a theoretical sort of way.
Yes, there are other factor, which is why it isn't done...

First off I guess is that a simple conversation fixes the problem, or the problem is unfixable.
Let me explain.
See one side is lack of information, the idea that 914s require a different launch technique.
The other is a pilots willingness to adjust.

Yeah, pilots notoriously suck at willingness to adjust. It sure is a good thing that aviation is as forgiving of unwillingness to adjust as it is. If aviation were just half as unforgiving of unwillingness to adjust as croquet or a similar extreme sport the carnage that would result would be unthinkable.

The first is easily solved with a simple conversation but only if the second is possible.

And there's no gray area here. Muppets either:

- totally get it, come off at the perfect moment two seconds before the impact of the 914 hogwash, never break the Rooney Link; or

- they're taking the cart into the air with them, getting airborne at Mach 5, SLAMMING into the 914 hogwash, breaking weak link after weak link at five feet in smooth morning air.

One of those night and day things - never the slightest hint of dawn or dusk.

See, there's no 'learning curve'. You either wait stubbornly till you're lifting the cart, cuz "that's the 'right' way", or you don't.

Thank you so very much, Mister Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, for letting me know what I do or don't do. Thank you also on behalf of the ten or fifteen AT pilots...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/15 06:48:18 UTC

AP flies in OZ
I have no clue what they're using over there.

...on the face of the planet who've had a few launches that you HAVEN'T personally observed and included in your database.

The timing is easy. You actually have to work hard to leave the cart at the wrong time (early or late).

I'll take late every time if I have to choose. Breaking weak link after weak link at five feet in smooth morning air increases the shit outta the safety of the towing operation and is a resounding repudiation to the crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

Next up... I already do.

Really? You just said:

Yes, it's technically possible in a theoretical sort of way.
Yes, there are other factor, which is why it isn't done...

And now you, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, the world's greatest 914 Dragonfly tug pilot, the best of the best, are saying you do. So of the 914 tug pilots in this discussion who've revealed their personal towing practices one hundred percent are totally contradicting the statement you made ten short totally inane sentences ago.

I don't tow solos under full power...

No shit...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3661
Flying the 914 Dragonfly

Jim Rooney - 2008/12/06 20:01:49 UTC

You will only ever need full throttle for the first fifty feet of a tandem tow. Don't ever pull a solo at full throttle... they will not be able to climb with you. You can tow them at 28 mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weaklinks will go left and right.

...you could't keep up with me if I did.

How come? What would happen if I tried?

I wouldn't be going faster horizontally, but my accelleration and climb rate would be so extreme...

I'll say! Like a fuckin' Saturn 5! I'm amazed you guys can stay conscious and not suffer permanent brain damage due to oxygen deprivation without using G suits.

...that most pilots couldn't keep up the timing needed to make it work.

Yeah, it's a timing thing you need to make it work that most pilots don't have. You'd need to stay level with the tug and most pilots wouldn't be able to do that. And even if they did they wouldn't have enough timing left over to perfect their flares when they landed after getting back down from twenty thousand feet.

(I think Bo's the only one I've successfully towed at full boost)

Yeah. Bo's a really cool dude. Only killed ONE of his tandem students. Or maybe that was a passenger who decided to interfere with Bo's control when he was turning off of base. Bo can't remember.

Total fucking bullshit. 2002/06/30 I had Adam go wide open, turbocharger kicked in for the first half of the tow. Took about a minute off the regular ride up to 2500. I couldn't discern any difference other than by looking at the numbers. And that was on a 320 pound HPAT 158 with a standard aerotow weak link installed on the two point bridle.

With the hydraulic piston gauge I've measured a normal climb tension of 125 pounds. Turbocharger kicked in at 155. Two extra fat house cats worth. Big fuckin' deal. Compare contrast with truck and winch tow tensions and climb rates.

10-03323
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2928/14397296584_1d0e5e389b_o.png


At one point earlier Sunny had asked me to rig something to measure tow tension 'cause he'd been getting tired of telling the zillions of people who asked that he had no clue. After I got my solo numbers I tried to arrange a goddam four hundred foot tandem flight with him so's I could get numbers for that. But for those last couple seasons those motherfuckers never seemed to be able to find the time. In retrospect it's obvious that they realized they were part of an international Ponzi scheme operation and that solid numbers were the enemy.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

I'm thinking about doing a bit more testing as there seemed to be some disagreement around here about what the average breaking strength of a loop of Greenspot (or orange) weaklink was.

Anybody have the SLIGHTEST DOUBT about this?

Very late in the game Adam was telling people that the single loop of 130 pound Greenspot blew at 520 pounds towline and the double loop tug did 1040. Try explaining why we're ever having breaks of any kind - 'specially if we have solid normal numbers.

Notice this little motherfucker is feeding us this pure unadulterated crap about the superhuman skill and timing needed to be able to keep up with him as he climbs at Mach 10 and saying NOTHING about the Rooney Link being able to withstand the thrust.

Then fifteen months later the Rooney Link is the ONLY issue regarding not cutting in the afterburners.

In this current narrative the only reason that a Rooney Link ever breaks is because 582 muppets are trying to use 582 technique behind 914s. And the only place a Rooney Link ever breaks is 5 feet straight and level long before the tug's got enough speed to get airborne.