Departing the launch cart - Davis Show

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/03/04 21:03:03 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

Yes, it's technically possible in a theoretical sort of way.
Yes, there are other factor, which is why it isn't done...

First off I guess is that a simple conversation fixes the problem, or the problem is unfixable.
Let me explain.
See one side is lack of information, the idea that 914s require a different launch technique.
The other is a pilots willingness to adjust.
The first is easily solved with a simple conversation but only if the second is possible.

See, there's no 'learning curve'. You either wait stubbornly till you're lifting the cart, cuz "that's the 'right' way", or you don't. The timing is easy. You actually have to work hard to leave the cart at the wrong time (early or late).

I guess that's the reason we never actually hear about people leaving the cart at the wrong time (early or late) - just a lot of semiliterate pretentious blatherings from Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney.

Next up...

Already? You couldn't elaborate on all these people having to work hard to leave the cart at the wrong time (early or late) or show us some relevant videos?

Remember what this thread is about?
http://ozreport.com/11.167
2007 Worlds - nobody died

Davis Straub - 2007/08/23 14:58:11 UTC

There was only two minor accidents that resulted in injury to pilots during the 2007 Worlds.

The one accident that happened on the line came when a pilot had taken off his wheels (he was the only pilot flying with wheels) and when he came off the cart slow and too early. His English wasn't good so he may not have understood the requests for him to hold on and he was one of the least experienced pilots at the Worlds.

And this is something Hiih Gland Aerosports AT pilots need to worry about? Launch lotsa people who don't understand that they're supposed to hold onto the cart before and while they're rolling? Sounds to me like you gotta totally work your ass off to fuck up one of these launches.

THIS:

http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1562/25190537495_d9a39e894f_o.jpg

ain't happenin' two or three times a weekend - ANYWHERE. And if it were there'd be a lot fewer gliders taking their wheels off before getting on the cart.

I already do.

Yes. YOU already do. Nobody else at Ridgely or any other operation you know about... Just YOU - YOU being your favorite topic.

I don't tow solos under full power...

- Likewise clearly implying that tons of other people DO.

- So what power DO you use? What's your setting/climb compared to a 582? And wouldn't that intermediate power setting be very confusing to pilots trying to decide what technique - 582 or 914 - to use?

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/25 02:24:44 UTC

582 / 914 = all the difference in the world.
It's a pointless discussion otherwise.

That's what I'm getting at here... it's a 582 technique that works with 582s, but it's counter productive behind 914s.
This is one of those night and day things.

I'm thinking NOT. I'm thinking it's one of those dawn and dusk things. That maybe you need to be using a 748 technique - halfway between 582 and 914 - as a rule of thumb. I'm thinking that if different 914 pilots were using different throttle settings the glider pilots would need to adjusting their techniques and it would be very difficult to calculate when the hogwash would hit and how hard.

...you could't keep up with me if I did.

Behind Chad, Sunny, Adam, Lisa, Zack, Windsor, Les, Keavy... No problem.

I wouldn't be going faster horizontally...

Fuck. I so do enjoy flying faster horizontally when I tow.

...but my accelleration and climb rate would be so extreme that most pilots couldn't keep up the timing needed to make it work.

- How much accellerating do you typically do after you've lifted off the runway at Mach 6.5? What are your airspeed indicator readings at fifty and two thousand feet? Can we see a video of a Dragonfly accellerating throughout a climb to two grand? I know a glider trying to follow it would be torn to shreds before it got up to two hundred so just make it a Dragonfly with nothing behind it.

- Oh. You wouldn't be going faster horizontally but your accelleration and climb rate would be so extreme that most pilots couldn't keep up the timing needed to make it work. Which means that you're going STRAIGHT UP. And accellerating the whole time. Until you hit about eighty thousand feet and Mach 20. Then there's really not enough air for the prop to push off of. (Do try to avoid cool macho aviation terms you can't spell - 'specially the ones for which you have no fuckin' clues regarding the meanings.)

Yeah, that would be a real bitch to fly behind. I'm not supposed to have my nose up over thirty degrees.

(I think Bo's the only one I've successfully towed at full boost)

Yeah, he's an ace aerobatic pilot. (Did he have his parachute connected to his harness for that one?)

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/03/04 23:19:52 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

Yes, it's technically possible in a theoretical sort of way.
Yes, there are other factor, which is why it isn't done...

First off I guess is that a simple conversation fixes the problem, or the problem is unfixable.
Let me explain.

Oh. You guess is that a simple conversation fixes the problem, or the problem is unfixable - and now we're supposed to let you EXPLAIN. Maybe when you're done you could guess something about the 9/11 terrorist attacks and explain that to us muppets.

See one side is lack of information, the idea that 914s require a different launch technique.

I guess so. If you're guessing this I'm sure it's true.

The other is a pilots willingness to adjust.

That's an even better guess. I hope the quality of your guesses keeps accellerating at this rate.

The first is easily solved with a simple conversation but only if the second is possible.

See, there's no 'learning curve'. You either wait stubbornly till you're lifting the cart, cuz "that's the 'right' way", or you don't. The timing is easy. You actually have to work hard to leave the cart at the wrong time (early or late).

Next up... I already do.
I don't tow solos under full power... you could't keep up with me if I did. I wouldn't be going faster horizontally, but my accelleration and climb rate would be so extreme that most pilots couldn't keep up the timing needed to make it work. (I think Bo's the only one I've successfully towed at full boost)

Which brings us to the reason to have a 914 in the first place... you need one.
Something made you get a 914 instead of a 582.

Like climbing out fast? Isn't that more of this crappy argument that flying up is somehow safer than an emergency landing or crashing off the end of the runway?

914s are horribly expensive to own and maintain.

'Specially when they're piloted by...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27909
Dragonfly Accident at Lookout

Jim Rooney - 2012/06/09 03:05:22 UTC

BTW, you have no need or use of reminding me of the other tug pilot that we lost.
She was a friend of mine and an exceptionally close friend of my mates.
You will likewise not be able to inform me of anything regarding her accident.
Allow me to inform you.
She was a rookie and it was a rookie mistake made under duress and extremely low.

...people you haven't adequately trained to fly and tow with them. Probably horribly expensive to clear the wreckage and body out of the airfield and do all the celebration of life stuff.

If you own one, you need it... it's a safety thing.

Yeah. More of more of this crappy argument that flying up is somehow safer than an emergency landing or crashing off the end of the runway.

Short runways, tall trees, whatever.

Yeah. Short runways, tall trees, whatever.

01-02404
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5233/14063543119_254d82862b_o.png

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5111/14063542819_5ed4276884_o.png
03-03608

That's why you've never had anything but 914s at Ridgely - short runways and tall trees. And it doesn't hurt to increase those safety margins by always taking off from the midpoint of the runway either.

And even with a 914...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=9084
Aerotow problem/question:Properly washed, I think

Jim Gaar - 2008/10/28 15:55:22 UTC

We always told towed pilots that the first 500 feet belonged to the tug pilot. They have enough to do to keep themselves safe.

Jim Rooney - 2008/12/11 18:45:01 UTC

Yup, the first 500ft are mine. Try to keep up. Your tugger generally REALLY wants to help you, and will do all that he can to do so, but he's got trees to stay out of as well.

...you won't be able to fix whatever's going on back there by giving us the rope until we're about three times kill zone / parachute height. Them's the cards ya gotta play dealing with those short runways, tall trees, whatever.

Funny you're able to analyze all of our dolly launch techniques so superbly every flight but you won't be able to squeeze your dump lever...

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7509/15659143120_a9aae8f7bd_o.jpg

...to save us from a lockout until we're three times as high as we need to be to actuate our Voight/Rooney instant hands free releases. Also a real bummer that you won't even be able to squeeze your dump lever to save your own stupid ass below five hundred feet.

http://ozreport.com/forum/files/2_264.jpg

(What do ya think went wrong there, Jim? Asshole on the glider used a Tad-O-Link which overrode the Dragonfly's tow mast breakaway protector? That would be my guess.)

You've got a 914 to increase your safety margin.

Nah, I'm the muppet on the glider. I've got a loop of 130 pound Greenspot fishing line to dump me off the 914 as it's clearing the short runway, tall trees...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12512
Weak Links

George Stebbins - 2008/07/13 21:01:44 UTC

I usually wrap the link around the ring/rope twice, making sure that the knot is at the "low pull" location. Billo has done that in the photo he provided, but it appears to have only one wrap. With two, the strain on the knot is so low that I've never had my link break at the knot. (I don't get many breaks anyway, but none have been at the knot.) Perhaps this violates the idea, to have the link be weaker than doubled line? I don't know. I've had enough links break when they should to think mine is ok, but then, I have never done any real tests. I've always been happy with the Quest-Air links, and only once did one break when it annoyed me seriously, and for no apparent reason. (Just as I crossed the treeline. I had to whip a 180 before I ran out of altitude to do so. Then I had an interesting landing, not really having room to turn back into the wind...) I HAVE had links break when I got off-line or too high. Almost always as I was reaching for or had just grabbed the release. They are breaking just as I decide it is getting unsafe. But I sure don't want to count on that! [EDIT: I just realized that they are probably breaking because I pull the release. If the strain is just short of breaking strength, pulling the barrel could break it before the barrel pulls back.]

BTW, most of my breaks are at the end farthest from the knot, where the link rubs on the release pin. (Pro tow.) I assume that's because the release pin has a small radius.

Thanks Billo, for the tests.

(I'm not that knowledgeable about weak links, I mostly just trust Quest on this, and use their links when possible, and Hungary Joe's when not. I think his are the same as theirs.)

...whatever. Works totally opposite for the glider. Getting dumped off the end of the runway, into the tall trees, whatever increases the safety of the towing operation and is known as an "inconvenience". It would be totally terrifying to be up there behind you clearing the end of the runway, tall trees, whatever.

No, wait. In this narrative I'm only inconvenienced at five feet straight behind the 914 Dragonfly in smooth morning air because I used a 914 technique and blasted up at a million miles an hour right into the hogwash. Matter o' fact I can only ever fly in smooth morning air because if I launched in thermal stuff there's a chance I could claim that I was doing everything right when the Rooney Link increased the safety of the towing operation and inconvenienced me enough for an ambulance ride. Sorry, pray continue.

So when it comes down to my safety or having a conversation, we're going to have a conversation.

So you're saying in response to Mark's question that flying either a 914 at 582 power - or a 582 - to adjust to a 582ers technique would be unacceptably dangerous to you because at Ridgely the runway's too short and the trees off its ends are too tall. Have you considered flying for Cowboy Up which has an exceptionally tall runway - 5500' AGL - and extremely short trees?

Wether you chose to adjust is then up to you.

Nah. I refuse to adjust. I'm just gonna continue using my 582 technique behind your 914 and keep breaking weak link after weak link in smooth morning air at five feet when I hit your hogwash - despite the fact that you actually HAVE...

Next up... I already do.

...cut back to 582 power. And you're gonna keep giving me free relights - despite the fact that you know I'll never be able to learn to launch safely enough to properly qualify for my AT rating.

In the end, it really does boil down to a willingness to adjust.

Yeah?

Next up... I already do.
I don't tow solos under full power... you could't keep up with me if I did.

How do ya know it's not YOUR fault that gliders are blowing off behind you at five feet in smooth morning air? You said we couldn't keep up with you at full power and you hafta adjust. So if somebody DOESN'T blow off it's because he's a 914er and you dialed back just right? But WHEN somebody DOES blow off it's ALWAYS *HIS* fault because your dialing back technique was totally superb and he just flat out refused to adjust his 582 technique?

Pretty cool the way that works. I guess whenever somebody doesn't get his head blown off in a hunting accident it's because you were doing everything perfectly with the shotgun. And whenever somebody DOES get his head blown off it's because he just walked in front of you while you were doing everything perfectly with the shotgun.

It's not a skill thing. The timing is exceptionally simple. 1st time solos do it all the time.

Totally astounding that all these 582ers are incapable of perfecting their dumbed down 914 launch timing even with benefit of some of the best AT instruction anywhere on the face of the planet.

It's as simple as saying "I'm going to let the glider fly out of the cart when it starts tugging on the handles/rope...

So you're still using ropes at Ridgely? Despite?:

http://ozreport.com/9.074
It was Ricky Duncan

Davis Straub - 2005/04/05

Several years ago we had a dolly-connected-to-cart incident of the worst kind in New York, where an Atos pilot passed his vario safety lanyard around the cart rope. He installed his vario after his glider was in the cart. He had a vicious nose over at launch speed, which broke his neck among other things. He lived at a hospital for many months, but ultimately died due to the incident. No portion of glider assembly/preparation should be done on the cart.

Really inspiring to see your unflagging dedication to safety over there.

...instead of insisting that the cart becomes airborn before I let go."

I'm insisting that the cart becomes airborn before I let go. I'm insisting on taking it up two hundred feet to the top of the kill zone to be extra safe before I let go.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/31 22:02:46 UTC

search: hang glide maryland
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2RL4AhNNJg

0:06
Classic 582 tow with unadjustable cart.
Notice how he has enough time to look at his vario.

914 tows, adjustable keels...
1:02
1:05
1:40

The first launch on the video is Sunny (flying marc's glider).
Notice that he actually winds up pulling in as he leaves the cart... he's not pushing out of the cart.
No one is carrying carts into the air. (not even John behind the 582)

So tell us why it's safe for some poor dumb slob to tow Sunny and John with a 582 at Ridgely with it's short runway, tall trees, whatever but not...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

...the world’s greatest Dragonfly tug pilot to either tow with a 582 or a 914 at 582 power? Nobody really gives a flying fuck about this guy - and the gliders he's towing at the ECC?

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/03/05 13:13:59 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

Yes, it's technically possible in a theoretical sort of way.
Yes, there are other factor, which is why it isn't done...

First off I guess is that a simple conversation fixes the problem, or the problem is unfixable.
Let me explain.
See one side is lack of information, the idea that 914s require a different launch technique.
The other is a pilots willingness to adjust.
The first is easily solved with a simple conversation but only if the second is possible.

See, there's no 'learning curve'. You either wait stubbornly till you're lifting the cart, cuz "that's the 'right' way", or you don't. The timing is easy. You actually have to work hard to leave the cart at the wrong time (early or late).

Next up... I already do.
I don't tow solos under full power... you could't keep up with me if I did. I wouldn't be going faster horizontally, but my accelleration and climb rate would be so extreme that most pilots couldn't keep up the timing needed to make it work. (I think Bo's the only one I've successfully towed at full boost)

Which brings us to the reason to have a 914 in the first place... you need one.
Something made you get a 914 instead of a 582. 914s are horribly expensive to own and maintain. If you own one, you need it... it's a safety thing. Short runways, tall trees, whatever. You've got a 914 to increase your safety margin. So when it comes down to my safety or having a conversation, we're going to have a conversation. Wether you chose to adjust is then up to you.

In the end, it really does boil down to a willingness to adjust.
It's not a skill thing. The timing is exceptionally simple. 1st time solos do it all the time.
It's as simple as saying "I'm going to let the glider fly out of the cart when it starts tugging on the handles/rope instead of insisting that the cart becomes airborn before I let go."

Mark G. Forbes - 2007/09/04 09:19:34 UTC

Thanks for the info.

Aren't ya gonna use an adjective to describe the info?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Deltaman - 2013/02/16 22:41:36 UTC

How is that possible to write so much ..and say NOTHING !?

That makes good sense.

Well... It's certainly one of the most REVEALING hang glider posts I've read in my entire life - 'specially when viewed in the context of all the other total crap this total moron has spewed over the years. Also reveals a tremendous amount about the Davis Show total assholes listening to this crap and not calling him on any of it - or it would if we didn't know all about them already.

You say a 914 is a lot more expensive to operate than a 582.

Yep.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/31 12:57:14 UTC

I'm not speaking of theory here. I see this crap a lot.
It generally starts with someone that's been behind 582s.
I very often hear "I pull in a tad on the cart and wait for it to get lifted off the ground" a lot too (582 technique) when I discuss why someone's breaking weaklink after weaklink at 5ft in smooth morning air.

With a 582 you can get both 582ers and 914ers up to 2500 feet AGL (or down to 2500 feet AGL if you're starting from a 5500 foot AGL runway) totally reliably in one shot. With a 914 you can get the 914ers up in one but ya gotta spend all fuckin' day doing free relights for the 582ers who never make it beyond five feet in smooth morning air - two or three tops when it's soarable.

But I've heard tell that the 582, while cheaper to buy initially, is more expensive to operate because of lower fuel economy and more frequent overhauls.

No.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).

When you combine that model with THESE:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.

It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.

BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.

total fucking dickheads you have an infinitely expensive operation. You've gotta minimize the pressure on the focal point of the safe towing system. And the 582 does an excellent job of that.

Sounds to me like you disagree with that.

Just research his posts a bit. You'll find him sounding like he disagrees and agrees with everything depending on his momentary whims and whatever cock he's currently engaged in sucking.

Any thoughts to share?

All hands on deck. Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney has just been invited to share thoughts on The Davis Show. This is not a drill. REPEAT: This is NOT a drill.

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/04 12:47:39 UTC

Good points.

I particularly liked:

That makes good sense.

Longtime debate in tug circles btw.

How long did it take you off the scale stupid shits to figure out that a double loop of 130 pound Greenspot on a solo glider doesn't:

http://ozreport.com/3.066
Weaklinks

Davis Straub - 1999/06/06

During the US Nationals I wrote a bit about weaklinks and the gag weaklinks that someone tied at Quest Air. A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Tad Eareckson - 2008/11/24 06:16:08 UTC

Would someone - Brian, Janni, Lauren, ANYONE - PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE explain to me how the tug's ass is endangered by a double loop ONLY when it's on a SOLO glider but not at all when it's on a TANDEM?

- endanger the tug any more than it does when it's on a tandem
- turn the tug's weak link into a thirty thousand pound loop of Kevlar
- prevent the tug from squeezing the dump lever on his joystick

Yeah, I lean towards the 582 side.

Right.

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

If you own one, you need it... it's a safety thing. Short runways, tall trees, whatever. You've got a 914 to increase your safety margin. So when it comes down to my safety or having a conversation, we're going to have a conversation.

Although you obviously can't fly a 914 at 582 power 'cause that critically reduces your safety margin, your safety margin is totally rock solid flying a 582 at 582 power.

Discaimer, I'm not a mechanic.

Nuthin' to write home about in the spelling department neither.

I spend lots of time helping them and know my way around an engine, but I'm not the guy.

Pity you seem to have such a problems

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/11 18:59:06 UTC

Storm in a teacup.

I did a demo for someone that was listening to Tad's drivel one day.
I had them hang a barrel release from the ceiling. From that release, I had a rope with a loop. The loop was just a few inches above the floor.
You stand on the loop, then activate the release.
Don't take my word for it, go try it.

Now, I pro tow with a 130lb weaklink. I'm 160lbs soaking wet. The protow cuts the force seen by either side of the bridal in 1/2, so I'm overloading the release with over 2X's it's achievable load.

Zack C - 2013/03/11 20:54:09 UTC

You were loading the release directly to 160 lbs, right? If so, that's only 1.2 times it's achievable load with a 130 lb weak link.

...understanding grade school level arithmetic, science, logic...

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/11 20:57:51 UTC

Sorry, yes it's early... Just under... As you've said many times... 130 breaks at100 right?

...having any fucking clues as to actual performances of the critical focal points of your safe towing systems.

The cost of maintenance depends heavily on if you can do it yourself and if you're a club or business.

But not at all on the number of launch/landing cycles. In Rooney Math those are all absolute zeroes.

582 maintenance is pretty easy stuff, but will cost you if you have to pay for it.
914 stuff is harder and will cost you dearly if you can't do it.
582s typically break cheaper than 914s. The whole engine's not that expensive to start with... even a crankshaft isn't bad compared to the crap that breaks on a 914 (like the turbo). When a 914 breaks, open your wallet.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke. I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again.

What was the cost of that loop of magic fishing line?

Here's the business part.
Downtime becomes money.

And here I was thinking that whenever aerotow equipment failed...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6326
An OK Day at Ridgely

Matthew Graham - 2014/06/09 01:51:11 UTC

It was pretty quiet at Ridgely when we arrived at noon. Brian VH and Felix were there-- and Sammy (sp) and Bertrand... and Soraya Rios from the ECC. She was not flying.

Felix test flew Bertrand's T2C for about an hour and loved it. Brian had a short flight on a Falcon. I got on the flight line at a little after 1pm behind Sammi. She had a sledder. Then the tandem glider called rank and went ahead of me. The tandem broke a weak link and it took a while to sort out a new weak link. I finally towed around 1:30 and also broke a link at 450'. Back to the end of the line. Actually, my wife Karen let my cut in front of her. Bertrand and Sammi towed again. Each having sledder. The cirrus had moved in and things did not look good. Again I arrived at the front of the line only to have the tandem call dibs. And then the tug needed gas. I thought I would never get into the air...

...there was a financial benefit for all concerned.

(Six named pilots, two of them killed last year hang gliding within five months of each other, both their pilot spouses history, the most important resource in the history of Mid Atlantic hang gliding dead the same day - 2015/11/08 - as Karen. Well done, people of varying ages.)

With the low cost of the engine, it's easier to have a ready to go spare on the shelf. You can swap a 582 in about 1/2 hour. Try that with a 914. When they break, the plane is typically down for the day (at least)

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

I feel your pain.

Personally, my favorite engine is the 912.
The S model is nice if you need the extra horsepower.

Yep...

03-03608
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5111/14063542819_5ed4276884_o.png

Gotta clear those tall trees at the ends of those short runways. Safety thing.

All this may vanish soon though if the new rotaries work as advertised.

Won't vanish as soon as Hiih Gland Aerosports, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Mid Atlantic aerotowing will.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/03/05 15:22:49 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Gerry Grossnegger - 2008/05/03 02:04:39 UTC

The Wills Wing T2 144/154 Manual (Feb.2007 3rd ed.) says:
A keel angle of 7 degrees has been used for platform tow operations, which allowed the glider to start lifting off the chocks at approximately 30 m.p.h.

That is a moronic statement. You hold the nose low with the releasable tether to keep the glider trimmed very fast, under minimal stress, solidly planted while the truck accelerates - and you sure as hell don't want it lifting with the nose tethered. (And good luck trying to make that happen anyway.) You then pop the tether and start flying the glider.

ZILCH to do with dolly launching in which it's impossible to have anything that can be considered stress on the glider. The glider's set very nose high relative to platform and a couple seconds after you start rolling the wing just trims itself - with control input from the pilot if he so chooses - and the keel cradle becomes totally irrelevant. Pretty much the total opposite of what's going on in platform.

What's the best angle for a dolly launch?

Who gives a flying fuck? It's not that critical or important.

Has anyone actually measured?

Yeah, let's actually measure dolly set angles - and make sure as little as possible is known about actual AT weak link strengths, towing tensions, release capacities for decades.

I'd imagine the nose should start off a fair bit higher than that so that the keel can lift off the back support when the wing starts flying...

Ya think?

...but not so high that it'll float off the cradle at any little gust before then.

It CAN'T float off the cradle with its nose set by the keel cradle. It's gotta TRIM first. It CAN, however, get rolled by a crosswind.

The nose starts out a little...

Or a lot. It's highly unlikely to make any difference with a reasonable wind direction and strength.

...higher than flying angle. During platform towing, the nose tether keeps it at a little lower than lift-off angle.

Exactly.

I've got one of these, looks like just the thing to take the guesswork out of it for $10-15:

http://images.google.ca/images?q=%22magnetic+polycast+protractor%22&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&sa=G

Oh good. Now all we need to guess about is how that reading relates to what we're doing with the glider.

The "magnetic" bit, of course, doesn't do us a whole lot of good...

How much good are we being done by:
- standard aerotow weak links
- easily reachable releases
- tug drivers fixing whatever's going on back there by giving us the rope
- backup loops
- Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney blathering on incessantly, flatly contradicting himself at every turn, with nobody calling him on anything

Davis Straub - 2008/05/03 02:30:40 UTC

I found that one position up on the back cradle in the Bobby Bailey built cart. Two up pins the glider to the cart. This is for the 144, which has, as I vaguely recall, 63 cm down tubes.

24.8 inches. Must be a pretty tight squeeze hooking in.

Gerry Grossnegger - 2008/05/03 02:51:17 UTC

Even longer:

40G-1446 SLIPSTREAM 2 LEG 68 W/O BRKTS (T2 154)
40G-1459 SLIPSTREAM 2 LEG 65 W/O BRKTS (T2 144)

40G-1474 LITESTREAM LEG 68 W/O BRKTS (U2 160/S2 175/T2 154)
40G-1471 LITESTREAM LEG 65 W/O BRKTS (U2 145/T2 144/S2 155)

I'll say. The 65 inch is well over two and a half times as long as the one Davis Dead-On Straub uses.

Damien Gates - 2008/05/03 08:02:16 UTC

A high angle of attack in the dolly is always better than to low so err on the high side and beware of wind.

Not always - but pretty damn close.

Base bar postion at or near towing postion on start up and roll out the glider should rotate the keel out of the chock about 100mm at flying speed, accelerate a bit more and come out with postive airspeed.

- As opposed to negative airspeed. Remember, people of varying ages... Pointy end forward.
- But don't wait too long or you'll slam into the 914 hogwash and the safety of the towing operation will be increased.

Upright length and general glider dynamics mean you would have to custom make a dolly for all gliders to keep the angle definitive I guess.

- Or you could just raise or lower a notch and get it close fucking enough.

- Sure is a good thing we don't hafta customizing the weak link - which is the center of gravity of this discussion and described only as "the weak link" - for all gliders. Do you have any idea how much that would complicate our tow systems and discussions?

Gerry Grossnegger 2008/05/03 14:14:03 UTC

Yup, that's exactly what should happen. My question is, though, what keel angle will make it happen?

What keel angle will make...

09-00628
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1517/24907340511_e0696ea696_o.png

...a tumble happen right after a Rooney Link very clearly provides protection from an excessive angle of attack for that form of towing?

Just kidding. Please continue beating this trivial nonissue bullshit to death.

With all the, what, tens of thousands (?) of dolly launches that have been done in the flight parks down there, someone must've put a number to it some time!

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

I'm thinking about doing a bit more testing as there seemed to be some disagreement around here about what the average breaking strength of a loop of Greenspot (or orange) weaklink was.

Sure, there's the "about like that" eyeball-it method that works perfectly fine when done by highly experienced launch crews.

How highly experienced does one need to be to set a pitch attitude a little on the high side? How many minutes do you think it would take to train a ten year old kid to do it as well or better than...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/09/03 01:39:55 UTC

I think that I know the one that is being referred to.

The problem was an inexperienced female student put on a cart that had the keel cradle way too high, so she was pinned to the cart. The folks working at Lookout who helped her were incompetent.

...highly experienced launch crews.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18777
Accident - Broken Jaw - Full Face HG Helmet

Keith Skiles - 2010/08/28 05:20:01 UTC

Last year, at LMFP I saw an incident in aerotow that resulted in a very significant impact with the ground on the chest and face. Resulted in a jaw broken in several places and IIRC some tears in the shoulder.

And let's make damned sure we understand that this wasn't an incident caused by an incompetent crew setting the keel bracket too high or the pilot flying off the cart like a rocket. A high keel setting forces you to come off the cart at a low angle of attack - not a high climb angle.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545
Cart stuck incidents

Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC

I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket...

She was totally OK...

...until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.

...until...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 19:41:27 UTC

Why is the devil always in the fine print, and incidentally in the things people *don't* say.

Yes, go read that incident report.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability. She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
That never goes well.
Yet people insist on doing it.

...her 130 pound Greenspot Pilot In Command protected her from making more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow. But let's not disrupt the courteous discussion in Davis's living room by acknowledging THAT elephant.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/7230
Towing question

Martin Henry - 2009/06/26 06:06:59 UTC

PS... you got to be careful mentioning weak link strengths around the forum, it can spark a civil war

We all know quite well what the result would be.

http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1562/25190537495_d9a39e894f_o.jpg

Also had shit to do with glider pitch setting.

Then there's the "last time was too far one way, let's try a little more the other" method which is our usual standard of excellence, and we've mostly gotten away with it too.

Cite me a single incident report in which there was a crash by someone who had half a fuckin' clue regarding pitch setting. Nothing? OK, let's move onto backup loop replacement interval.

It would be nice, for once, not to have to learn from my own mistakes.

Get fucked, Gerry. You're listening to Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney literally telling everyone that one plus one equals three and nobody's doing a goddam thing about him.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/03/05 19:44:05 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Gerry Grossnegger - 2008/05/03 02:04:39 UTC

The Wills Wing T2 144/154 Manual (Feb.2007 3rd ed.) says:
A keel angle of 7 degrees has been used for platform tow operations, which allowed the glider to start lifting off the chocks at approximately 30 m.p.h.

Hey Gerry...

What does the Wills Wing T2 144/154 Manual (Feb.2007 3rd ed.) say regarding what you should be using for a weak link? How come Wills Wing tells ya to the degree what your keel angle should be but...

Aerotow Release Attachment Points for Wills Wing Gliders
Rob Kells

Always use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less. Longer weak links are more likely to get tangled on the tow ring upon release.

...won't tell you to the nearest two hundred pound increment anything about weak link strength - for over three and a half decades now?

http://ozreport.com/3.066
Weaklinks

Davis Straub - 1999/06/06

During the US Nationals I wrote a bit about weaklinks and the gag weaklinks that someone tied at Quest Air. A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

Do you think we'd be having as many inconveniences and coincidences if the sleazy motherfuckers took a principled and competent stand on this issue?

Bart Weghorst - 2008/05/03 15:57:18 UTC
Jackson Hole

While Jim offers a lot of good advice about how to leave the launch cart...

Yeah, simply amazing. Suck my dick, Bart.

...his theory about why pilots that are new to towing behind a 914 break more weaklinks is flawed in my opinion.

Well, it's just your OPINION. Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's opinion could be the right one, equally right, whatever. The important thing is that we keep this discussion civil and respectful. And so far you're doing an excellent job along those lines.

My opinion is that everyone, experienced or not, is more likely to break a weaklink behind a 914.

That's because of the extra thrust that a 914 produces.

And MUST. It's not like you could dial back to 582 power. Then Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney wouldn't be able to clear the tall trees off the end of his short runway. It would cut deeply into his safety margin.

Any tug that's adjusted right (whether it is a 582 or a 914) will produce the most thrust when it flies at the airspeed that you would normally tow at.

Not Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney in his 914...

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

I don't tow solos under full power... you could't keep up with me if I did. I wouldn't be going faster horizontally, but my accelleration and climb rate would be so extreme that most pilots couldn't keep up the timing needed to make it work. (I think Bo's the only one I've successfully towed at full boost)

He goes straight up constantly accelerating and increasing the thrust. People who tow behind him don't keep the tug ON the horizon. They keep it PERPENDICULAR TO the horizon.

This airspeed is usually reached when the glider has come out of the cart, with the tug still on the ground.

With a 914 Mach 3 if the glider comes out of the cart when it should, Mach 5 if the glider comes off a moment before the hogwash hits.

(At this speed the tug pilot could probably fly, but wants a little extra airspeed to get off the ground with an extra airspeed margin).

Does the tug pilot ever...

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...

Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

...cut the power...

...to increase the safety of the towing operation or practice recovering from an inconvenience stall?

In other words: The thrust of the tug at full throttle varies with airspeed.

In your OPINION anyway.

As you get close to best climb speed, the thrust increases. Also the acceleration increases. When this happens, the glider experiences "maximum pull".

- What about when the glider slams into the hogwash just as he comes off the cart stubbornly insisting on using 582 technique behind the 914? Surely you're feeling the tug decelerate significantly when this happens. Standard aerotow weak link installed on the bridle with the knot hidden from the main tension in the loop. 520 pounds. Momentary 365 pound application of reverse thrust hitting the 155 you're generating with the turbocharger kicked in. Surely you guys are being unpleasantly jolted forward against your restraint webbing when this happens.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke.

It's not like these Rooney Links are just vaporizing for no reason whatsoever at normal liftoff tension.

- Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's doesn't reach "maximum pull" until just before wave-off...

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

I don't tow solos under full power... you could't keep up with me if I did. I wouldn't be going faster horizontally, but my accelleration and climb rate would be so extreme that most pilots couldn't keep up the timing needed to make it work. (I think Bo's the only one I've successfully towed at full boost)

He climbs vertically accellerating the whole ascent until his solid rocket boosters are spent. (This is why he doesn't tow in the Northern Hemisphere winter. The O-rings don't function very well in the cold.)

This acceleration is faster with a 914. Therefore we get more weak link breaks during the take-off run.

- In your opinion.

- So why are we having ANY weak link breaks during takeoff runs? What are these weak links supposed to be doing for us and why are we using the strength we are? No, wait....

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Bart Weghorst - 2011/08/28 20:29:27 UTC

Now I don't give a shit about breaking strength anymore. I really don't care what the numbers are. I just want my weaklink to break every once in a while.

Got it.

- Care to say anything about glider mass? If you double the weight of the glider won't a standard aerotow weak link be twice as likely to break once in a while?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.
Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink. They changed their tug's link and they don't just pass the stuff out either. If you'd like to know more about it... go ask them.
The law of the land at comps was 130lb greenspot or you don't tow. Seriously. It was announced before the comp that this would be the policy. Some guys went and made their case to the safety committee and were shut down. So yeah, sorry... suck it up.

How fair is this to the little girl gliders who don't give shits about breaking strength anymore, don't care what the numbers are, just want their weak links to break every once in a while?

Whatsamattah Bart? No OPINION on this issue?

Bart Weghorst - Texas - 67015 - H5 - 2003/02/02 - Tiki Mashy - AT FL PL ST TAT TFL TST AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC - ADV INST, INST ADMIN, TAND INST, TUG PILOT

You can score all this shit while having NO awareness of or opinion on?:

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2008/03
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
10. Hang Gliding Aerotow Ratings
-B. Aero Vehicle Requirements

05. A weak link must be placed at both ends of the tow line. The weak link at the glider end must have a breaking strength that will break before the towline tension exceeds twice the weight of the hang glider pilot and glider combination. The weak link at the tow plane end of the towline should break with a towline tension approximately 100lbs. greater than the glider end.

Not finding that credible, Bart. Not finding it credible that you can articulate what you just did about thrust and acceleration and say NOTHING about the biggest scam in the history of aviation.

Then the "spool up" argument:

What "ARGUMENT"?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC

My response is short because I've been saying it for years... and yes, I'm a bit sick of it.
This is a very old horse and has been beaten to death time and time again... by a very vocal minority.

See, most people are happy with how we do things. This isn't an issue for them. They just come out and fly. Thing's aren't perfect, but that's life... and life ain't perfect. You do what you can with what you've got and you move on.

But then there's a crowd that "knows better". To them, we're all morons that can't see "the truth".
(Holy god, the names I've been called.)

I have little time for these people.

It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things. The fanaticism makes it extremely hard to have a conversation about these things as they always degrade into arguments. So I save the actual conversations for when I'm talking with people in person.

A fun saying that I picked up... Some people listen with the intent of understanding. Others with the intent of responding.
I like that.

For fun... if you're not seeing what I mean... try having a conversation here about wheels.

Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney doesn't do ARGUMENTS. He just pulls sacred pronouncements outta his ass and tells anyone who challenges him on anything to get fucked and not bother to show up to get towed.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/26 11:34:17 UTC

582 technique... let me explain
Yes, it's the accelleration. 115hp gets you flying much quicker.
Add to this the fact that it's a 4 stroke engine so it develops power imediately. A 582 has to spool up. It develops power much more gradually.
That transitional time in the cart where the glider is flying, but just barely, gets extremely short behind a 914.
Where as with a 582, it's a noticeable thing. With a 914, it's over in an instant.
So waiting till you're lifting the cart, which can help behind a 582, can actually become a hindrance behind a 914.
See in the window for holding the cart "a few inches" becomes an instant... then you're in the 'radically cahnging your wingloading' arena.
You'd have to get a pretty knarly wind shift behind a 914 for it to matter... you're accellerating around twice as fast.
I see people that are used to flying behind 582s breaking weaklinks behind 914s all the time.
The worst are people that pull in a bit "for sufficient flying speed", then push out of the cart (that never goes well).

Consider footlaunching for example.
Footlaunching has a much more distinct "akward" time, where the glider is flying but not fully supporting your weight.
Behind a 582, you get to 'moon walk' a long time.
Behind a 914, as soon as you start to moon walk, I litterally yank you off the ground (I add power). A 582 hasn't yet spoolled up enough to do this.

Those are his STATEMENTS on "spoolling" - which he can't even spell. Where is there the slightest trace of an ARGUMENT?

A well adjusted 582 will be completely spooled up in the first few feet of the take-off run. By the time the glider is ready to fly out of the cart the engine will be spooled up and at max rpm for many seconds already.

And here's what I wrote before seeing your comment on this issue...

Tad Eareckson - 2016/02/27 18:06:44 UTC
Add to this the fact that it's a 4 stroke engine so it develops power imediately. A 582 has to spool up. It develops power much more gradually.
I'm calling this more total crap. Horsepower is horsepower and the towline doesn't give a flying fuck what's pulling its front end. And engines turning Dragonfly propellers approaching takeoff speed aren't SPOOLING anywhere.
That transitional time in the cart where the glider is flying, but just barely, gets extremely short behind a 914.
Yeah, that's probably because a four stroke develops power imediately while a 582 has to spool up.
Where as with a 582, it's a noticeable thing. With a 914, it's over in an instant.
Dickhead.
Behind a 914, as soon as you start to moon walk, I litterally yank you off the ground (I add power).
Enough to litterally yank you off the ground but not so much as to put your Rooney Link at risk of increasing the safety of the towing operation. It's a very fine balance act for which you develop a feel after many thousands of foot launch aerotows with a 914.
A 582 hasn't yet spoolled up enough to do this.
582's have notoriously mediocre spoolling mechanisms. They're OK enough on the spoolling down but leave much to be desired on the spoolling up.
Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney has found a word he can beat to death to make him sound like a really cool fighter jock. And he's talking to Davis Show douchebags so it really doesn't matter whether or not he can spell it properly.

And if he's that totally full o' shit on that issue just how much should we be valuing his opinion on anything else?

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/03/06 02:59:44 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Bart Weghorst - 2008/05/03 16:14:19 UTC

Reading back in the thread I just realize that what I just wrote has in some way or another already been said.

Sorry, I missed where anybody said that Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney was totally full o' shit on the "spoolling" issue.

Sorry Jim.

Why bother apologizing? You totally nailed him on the spooling crap so he's barely gonna acknowledge that you posted anything.

Now I don't know anymore what point I was trying to make.

Oh. Then let me make a point.

1+1=

a) 0
b) 1
c) 2
d) 3
e) 4
f) 5
g) all of the above

If you circle "g" you're gonna be right every now and then.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

See, in truck towing, a weaklink does next to nothing for you (unless the line snags).
This is because you're on a pressure regulated system... so the forces never get high enough to break the link.

This is not the case with an aerotow.
This is why the weaklink exists.

The forces of an aerotow can get high enough to tear the wings off the glider.
This is no exaggeration... it can be done.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 06:40:02 UTC

So... if it's *only* purpose is to prevent your glider from breaking apart... which is complete and utter bullshit... but if that was it's only purpose... why then do we have them at all?
Your glider will tear the rope apart before it breaks.
It will tear the towmast off the tug before it breaks.
Your glider is capable of amazing feats of strength... it is in no danger of folding up on you.

If you just carefully select the statements and portions of statements in which Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney has gotten things reasonably right - and throw out the other 99.9 percent which is pure unadulterated crap - you could compose a half decent aviation manual.

But aviation works pretty much the polar opposite of that. If you're not 99.9 percent right on all the critical issues you're not gonna survive a thousand flights.

Damien Gates - 2008/05/03 21:05:20 UTC

Hi Scare,

As posted previously by me - Would not each glider have a differrent...

Ironic spelling of that word.

...angle that would be optimum.

Fuck no. Every glider on the planet is optimally protected from lockouts and excessive angles of attack by the same loop of magic fishing line so why would anyone think for a nanosecond that anything else involved in aerotowing would be adjusted on a glider by glider basis?

An intermediate gliders angle would not be the same as a HP Glider and indeed the different flavours of intermediate gliders may also have a different angle depending on build etc.

Really admirable the dedication Davis Show participants have in the pursuit of finding solutions to nonexistent problems.

I am not trying to act the authority on the issue;

Nah, that's Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's job - ACTING the authority. That's why he hates and fears anyone and everyone he suspects knows what he's talking about.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.

Christopher LeFay - 2012/03/15 05:57:43 UTC

January's canonization of Rooney as the Patron Saint of Landing was maddening. He offered just what people wanted to hear: there is an ultimate, definitive answer to your landing problems, presented with absolute authority. Judgment problems? His answer is to remove judgment from the process - doggedly stripping out critical differences in gliders, loading, pilot, and conditions. This was just what people wanted - to be told a simple answer. In thanks, they deified him, carving his every utterance in Wiki-stone.

Always a great alternative to having a fuckin' clue as to what one is talking about.

...in saying this I am only relating a number of converstaions I have had with people of vast amount of Aerotow experience and manufacturers or there reps...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/30 02:16:16 UTC

They're not here cuz they don't feel like arguing all the time.
Most of the other people "in the business" don't come here cuz it turns into a shouting match too often.

Look how uppity people got when I even termed people "in the business" "professional pilots".
It's accurate, but some got all offended. They couldn't stand that someone doesn't see their uninformed opinion as holding as much weight as an informed one.
I know (very) basic electronics, but I don't argue with the electrician about which capacitor he uses for the timing circuit in my toaster. It's just not my field.

I know a lot of regular joes that do the same... for the same reason. There's a lot of lurkers here that really really do not care to get sucked into the mud.

I can't blame them, I avoid this place on a regular basis.
It's a shame too, cuz there's a lot of really really nice people in HG. Most are.
And all this sewing circle, drama queen bullshit keeps a lot of very informed people away... ya'll miss out on a lot.
The actual "insider" discussions, that you never see, are so much better.

...when I asked them the same question in respect to updating the HGFA tow manual (when i was HGFA GM) and our own Clubs SOP's, I want to know as well and was basically told you can not define it for every glider collectively. My intention was to put marks at the adjustment point for each glider or noting what the angle would be at any particular pin hole.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12403
weak link table

Tad Eareckson - 2009/06/09 17:30:31 UTC

On the off chance that hang gliding will EVER figure out what a weak link is...
I've prepared a table indicating the optimum Tost weak link for every model and size glider for which I could find specs online and posted it at:
http://www.energykitesystems.net/Lift/hgh/TadEareckson/index.html

2009/06/10 13:30:15 UTC - Sink This! -- Chris Valley
2009/06/10 14:46:03 UTC - Sink This! -- xlq

I was also told that too low (so the keel does not lift is bad) to high is only bad if there is wind and you are not holding the bar in while in the cart... the science of areotow, ey!

Cheers,
Tex

Work on your spelling.

Gerry Grossnegger - 2008/05/03 21:17:20 UTC

Yeah, there would be some variation between drastically different gliders. That's why I mentioned the Wills Wing T2. I'm specifically interested in the 154 version but the angle is probably pretty much the same for both sizes, and the carbon models, and probably the older versions too. There must've been a whole lot of launches done with those!

And if this were an actual issue wouldn't we be hearing a bit about the relevant disasters?

Bill Jacques - 2008/05/03 21:37:30 UTC

It's really cool how all this works.

I wonder how much the "ground effect" influences that "pop" you get when you let go of the cart.

I dunno... How much do you notice the ground effect influences when you're landing in dead air and what are you needing to do to adjust for them?

Common sense...

Is so totally absent from this thread that Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney is allowed to get away with the mountains of total shit that he does. And until somebody deals with that motherfucker and his protectors and enablers you're wasting your time with everything else.

...tells me it's just the exaggerated AOA that gives that nice little jump up into the air after you let go of the tubes.

Got news for ya, Bill. Another term for "exaggerated AOA" is STALL - or, in AT circles, inconvenience. And that doesn't give a nice little jump up into the air after you let go of the tubes.

(Of course on two point, if the glider is attached at the right point on the keel and you let the glider rise, instead of lifting the cart up a little like I do to make sure I have maneuvering airspeed, this "pop" doesn't really happen so much.)

Can you think of any situations in which the pro toad "pop" happening could be seriously problematic?

There is certainly no problem with staying up with any tug as it climbs... well at least I've never had that problem.

Why would a good tug pilot ever...

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...outclimb a glider?

Davis Straub - 2008/05/04 03:02:11 UTC

I launched today with the back cradle all the way down on the Bobby Bailey cart for the 144. Worked fine. The angle is too high in this configuation, but I couldn't change this particular cart, so I took the chance.

And I can't begin to tell you how happy we all are that everything worked out fine for you.

Easy to know if your angle is too high. Get in the harness in the cart, let go of the base tube, are you are "trim" position.

Cool. So how were you able to determine that...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:
Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.

...weak links would consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle?

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/03/06 18:01:46 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Gerry Grossnegger - 2008/05/04 06:47:13 UTC

That would be great, if I knew what trim position was for me on that glider. Never flown it so I don't know. I imagine it should be about here but don't know for sure.

Also don't have a Bobby cart and don't know what the geometry is on them, or of whatever the new carts are that we just got.

Jim Rooney - 2008/05/04 10:50:46 UTC

An easy way to set your cart AOA... Look at your wingtips.

Your tips should be around level with the ground. Error on the leading edge being angled up not down. Down will stick you to the cart. Too high is dangerous in crosswinds.
Remember, a high AOA likes to drop a wing and turn you. You'll get away with it in light winds, but it's very unforgiving in crosswinds.
It's even easier in single surface gliders, look at the washout tube. The tips droop a lot on a SS, so the tube is a better reference.

That "pop" out of the cart is cuz one of two things.
A) you're lifting the cart into the air and dropping a couple hundred pounds when you let go... might have a bit of an effect eh?
B) you're hitting the propwash of the tug.

An easy way to set your cart AOA... Look at your wingtips.

Your tips should be around level with the ground. Error on the leading edge being angled up not down. Down will stick you to the cart. Too high is dangerous in crosswinds.

So I guess John Claytor must've been pitched up too high. Why do you think it is that none of the cart monkeys, tug pilots, Safety Committee members caught that?

Remember, a high AOA likes to drop a wing and turn you. You'll get away with it in light winds, but it's very unforgiving in crosswinds.

- Got that, people of varying ages? Two flavors of wind in Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney AT launching - light and cross. You'll get away with dropping a wing and being turned while the 914 Dragonfly is accelerating to its Mach 6 takeoff speed, but if you drop a wing and get turned while the 914 Dragonfly is accelerating to its Mach 6 takeoff speed you're fucked. Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney has studied this issue very carefully and has excellent data to back up his pronouncements.

- How 'bout a pro toad bridle, Rooney Link pitch and lockout protector, and monster thermal low off the runway at Quest? Any thoughts, predictions? Or would that be prespeculation and totally inappropriate and unacceptable?

It's even easier in single surface gliders, look at the washout tube. The tips droop a lot on a SS, so the tube is a better reference.

Any thoughts on what weak link we should use for single surface gliders? Just kidding.

That "pop" out of the cart is cuz one of two things.
A) you're lifting the cart into the air and dropping a couple hundred pounds when you let go... might have a bit of an effect eh?

Fuck yeah dropping a couple hundred pound cart is gonna have a bit of an effect! Goes without saying.
(Hey Bill... Ever lift a couple hundred pounds with your fingers on the hold-downs to feel out your airspeed?

B) you're hitting the propwash of the tug.

Just as you come out of the cart using your 582 technique. If you use proper 914 technique and come out of the cart at just a wee bit above stall speed hitting the hogwash will have no significant effect on anything - 'specially if you're really heavy. You blast right through it in an instant thus minimizing the pressure on your Rooney Link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlIGsgNFRWM

(Pretty good smoking gun video on this treasure trove of Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney bullshit.)

C) Both.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

It was just coincidence that six comp pilots in a row in light morning conditions were lifting their carts into the air and dropping a couple hundred pounds when they let go and hitting the hogwash of the 914 tugs.

So...

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 17:34:33 UTC

Do NOT skip this little bit...
pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing thatpilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that
See, Russel knows what's up.
He knows that you're changing the equation and because of this, you need to ask the tug pilot.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/15 06:48:18 UTC

Davis has been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.

Russell Brown, (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) who knows what's up (and how to spell Russell), and Davis Straub, who's been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who, were totally unaware of the fact that that six comp pilots in a row were lifting their carts into the air in light morning conditions and dropping a couple hundred pounds when they let go and were hitting the hogwash of the 914 tugs.

And they couldn't dumb their 914s down to 582 power because of the...

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...short runway, tall trees, whatever at Zapata. And they didn't have enough 582s to pull gliders safely and successfully up off the short runway and over the tall trees, whatever.

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But when they doubled their Rooney Links all comp pilots immediately stopped lifting their carts into the air and dropping a couple hundred pounds when they let go and hitting the 914 hogwash. Not one single coincidence reported after that for the remainder of the comp. Just one rather nasty situation when a comp pilot neglected to tell Russell that he was doubling the Rooney Link and changing the equation.

http://ozreport.com/3.066
Weaklinks

Davis Straub - 1999/06/06

During the US Nationals I wrote a bit about weaklinks and the gag weaklinks that someone tied at Quest Air. A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.

I told him that I would be happy to publish anything that he wrote about weaklinks, but I never received anything from him or anyone else at Quest.

A few weeks later I was speaking with Rhett Radford at Wallaby Ranch about weaklinks and the issue of more powerful engines, and he felt that stronger weaklinks (unlike those used at Wallaby or Quest) were needed. He suggested between five and ten pounds of additional breaking strength.

To compensate for the greater power of the 619 engine that Rhett has on his tug, he deliberately flew it at less than full power when taking off or in anything other than absolutely smooth conditions. He started doing this after he noticed that pilots towing behind his more powerful tug were experiencing increased weaklink breakage.

A number of the pilots at the US Nationals were using "strong links" after they became fed up with the problems there. These "strong links" were made with paraglider line and were meant to fool the ground crew into thinking that the pilot had a weaklink.

The problem with strong links (neither Bobby Bailey nor I was aware at the time of the US Nationals that pilots were doing this) is that they endanger the tug pilot. If the hang glider pilot goes into a lock out, and doesn't break the weaklink (because there isn't one), they can stall the tug. I assume that Bobby Bailey won't hear about the use of strong links at the US Nationals until he reads it here.

This asshole went into a lockout and didn't release because he thought he could fix a bad thing and didn't wanna start over. And Russell didn't fix whatever was going on back there by giving him the rope because he was unaware of the equation change. The Dragonfly's tow mast breakaway protector couldn't function because the glider's Tad-O-Link was overriding it. The glider was totaled but the pilot had a full and speedy recovery. The towline failed on the glider's impact but Russell had been dangerously stalled by the Tad-O-Link lockout. Fortunately he remembered his glider training in which a dangerous low altitude stall is an inconvenience so he pushed the stick forward and was able to pull out in time - but just barely - and return to the launch line and bitch about the inconvenience. See? Russel knows what's up.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/03/06 21:05:16 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2008/05/04 10:50:46 UTC

That "pop" out of the cart is cuz one of two things.
A) you're lifting the cart into the air and dropping a couple hundred pounds when you let go... might have a bit of an effect eh?
B) you're hitting the propwash of the tug.

Snapping weaklinks because of "thrust"
Yeah, that hits on the "how" a bit...
That thrust is applied smoothly. What you're doing with it isn't.

Snapping weaklinks because of "thrust"
Yeah, that hits on the "how" a bit...

Much better than snapping weak links because of "slack" does.

Name a force transmitted through a towline that isn't or doesn't translate to "thrust". Name something else that can snap a weak link. And no. "Pressure" is not an acceptable answer - despite what you've been taught and are able to quote from the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden.

That thrust is applied smoothly. What you're doing with it isn't.

- Whatever I do with it, it's still THRUST. Just, unlike the thrust allowing you to fly, mine can get seriously misaligned - enough to make the tow unsustainable. ALTHOUGH... I can use the thrust and connection you're supplying to me to misalign you.

And don't even think about saying that all you've gotta do is squeeze the dump lever on your joystick 'cause you've already painted yourself into a corner incessantly...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Oh how many times I have to hear this stuff.
I've had these exact same arguments for years and years and years.
Nothing about them changes except the new faces spouting them.

It's the same as arguing with the rookie suffering from intermediate syndrome.
They've already made up their mind and only hear that which supports their opinion.

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.

Nobody's talking about 130lb weaklinks? (oh please)
Many reasons.
Couple of 'em for ya... they're manufactured, cheap and identifiable.

See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins... I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.

...ranting about the profound detrimental effect of a Tad-O-Link on your precious safety margins (not to mention MINE).

If I push out the short term effect is EXACTLY THE SAME as you kicking in the turbocharger. The towline tension increases and I climb steeply. And the towline has no way of knowing whether I pushed out or you hit the gas. And If you dive the dynamic is similar to what's going on near the top of a static line truck tow.

Zack Marzec is another good example. He hit the same monster thermal that had lifted the 914 Dragonfly. Since he was a cool pro toad kid and could handle a thrust line way the fuck below his center of mass/drag he couldn't stay down level with the tug which was cruising along totally unfazed. Nose went up way the fuck up, thrust went way the fuck up, climb went way the fuck up, Rooney Link very clearly provided protection from an excessive angle of attack for that form of towing.

- Got that, Zack C?

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You need to follow the 914 Dragonfly smoothly...

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Or not at all. But you're not smooth at about 700 feet, below a grand, so you get a free relight - despite the fact that what you were doing wasn't applied smoothly.

So Jim... How come Hiih Gland Aerosports rewards muppets who don't apply what they're doing smoothly below a thousand feet with free relights and front row seating in the launch line? If I wipe out on a ski slope before I get halfway down and am too beat up to finish the run that day do I get a free lift ticket and do they cut me in ahead of everyone else in the line the next weekend?

http://ozreport.com/9.033
Why weaklinks?

Davis Straub - 2005/02/08

Competition pilots are driven to use strong links because breaking a weaklink causes them to go to the back of the line as well as the problems that come with broken weaklinks low. If we want to use weaklinks, we need to be sure that we are not penalized if our weaklink breaks.

Isn't this pretty much universal policy of free relights for pops in the first thousand - or five hundred - an acknowledgement that Rooney Links are increasing the safety of the towing operation for no reason whatsoever?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

So on a stellar day we can clear launch and at any altitude and when locked in perfect position in smooth air doing nothing with the control bar a Rooney Link can break for a reason nobody but you is able to discern. Nobody did ANYTHING wrong and thus there's nothing anybody could've done better - even master ace pilot Bo Hagewood. But if we come off a cart behind a 914 when we're supposed to, so that we're nice and stable while the 914 continues to accellerate to its Mach 6 takeoff speed, and we run into its hogwash and/or whatever Mother Nature decides to hand us a Rooney Link can only break as a consequence of our shit technique.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/03/06 22:34:23 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2008/05/04 10:50:46 UTC

That "pop" out of the cart is cuz one of two things.
A) you're lifting the cart into the air and dropping a couple hundred pounds when you let go... might have a bit of an effect eh?
B) you're hitting the propwash of the tug.

Snapping weaklinks because of "thrust"
Yeah, that hits on the "how" a bit...
That thrust is applied smoothly. What you're doing with it isn't.
Smooth will not break weaklinks.

In the end, you're achieving the same tow force. With a 914, you're getting there faster.
This is why I say towing behind a 914 takes a different technique.
Behind a 582 you're free to make all kinds of sharp corrections... you can get away with it. Not so on a 914.

When I see someone breaking weaklink after weaklink... they're always hamfisting something.

That thrust is applied smoothly. What you're doing with it isn't.
Smooth will not break weaklinks.

Right.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 16:45:39 UTC

I am more than happy to have a stronger weaklink and often fly with the string used for weaklinks used at Wallaby Ranch for tandem flights (orange string - 200 lbs). We used these with Russell Brown's (tug owner and pilot) approval at Zapata after we kept breaking weaklink in light conditions in morning flights.

If you're smooth it's physically impossible to break a standard aerotow weak link. And Mother Nature will only ever hit us with stuff adequately smoothed. ("Damn! A 914 AT launch in progress! Gotta smooth that gust I was throwing NOW!!!")

http://ozreport.com/3.066
Weaklinks

Davis Straub - 1999/06/06

During the US Nationals I wrote a bit about weaklinks and the gag weaklinks that someone tied at Quest Air. A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.

You can't SMOOTHLY exceed the breaking strength of a standard aerotow weak link because...

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.

...the breaking strength of the standard aerotow weak link is the most carefully guarded secret in the history of aviation.

We DO know...

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

IGFA braided Dacron fishing line is readily available in a wide range of strengths that work for us, including 100, 130, 160, 180, 200, 250, and 300 lb. line. One source states that their Dacron braided line is IGFA approved, and they publish a chart of the actual tested breaking strengths for their various lines [ref 13]. They state that their 130 lb. line breaks within one pound of 130, which is 5 to 10 times more precise than a metal TOST weak link.

...that it's EXTREMELY *PRECISE* but just have no fuckin' clue precisely WHAT and will never be able to find out because lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world. All of which we'll ever be able to be certain is that:

- Whenever a loop of 130 pound Greenspot vaporizes it's the glider muppet's fault.

- It's far outside the realm of Newtonian physics for any tug pilot to be able to do anything to break a standard aerotow weak link - except, of course, for using a 914 to climb at a speed sufficient for the safety of both planes.

- Anything negative that happens to a glider after a standard aerotow weak link breaks will be:
-- a consequence of the glider muppet being a total douchebag
-- a tiny fraction of the carnage that would've resulted had the glider muppet been using 140 pound Greenspot

- Whenever a glider slams in fatally with a:
-- 130 pound Greenspot standard aerotow weak link it's because a weak link can't prevent a lockout
-- 140 pound Greenspot stronglink it's because the Tad-O-Link DIDN'T prevent the lockout

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

I don't tow solos under full power... you could't keep up with me if I did. I wouldn't be going faster horizontally, but my accelleration and climb rate would be so extreme that most pilots couldn't keep up the timing needed to make it work. (I think Bo's the only one I've successfully towed at full boost)
In the end, you're achieving the same tow force. With a 914, you're getting there faster.

So what you're saying is that you're too fucking incompetent to be able to accellerate and climb smoothly, right? 'Cause our sub-Bo level TIMING has absolutely nothing to do with smoothness, right? Quite the opposite by definition, in fact.

This is why I say towing behind a 914 takes a different technique.

Real bitch no other 914 tuggies are saying this, ain't it Jim?

Behind a 582 you're free to make all kinds of sharp corrections... you can get away with it.

And who ever heard of a sharp correction...

Bill Bryden - 2000/02

Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.

...being required on aerotow? No, wait... A CORRECTION is only required after some stupid muppet did something wrong. A rockstar will never do anything wrong so will never NEED to make a correction - sharp, smooth, enthusiastic, cherry flavored... You name it.

Not so on a 914.

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble

Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.

Fuckin' muppets making sharp corrections for their stupid mistakes in rough conditions behind 914s. What a bunch o' assholes.

When I see someone breaking weaklink after weaklink... they're always hamfisting something.

Fuck yeah! When you see someone just breaking one weak link...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

...it's probably not 'cause he's hamfisting something. But when you see someone breaking weaklink after weaklink... they're ALWAYS hamfisting something.

When you see someone break ONE weak link there's a good chance he wasn't hamfisting anything. But when he breaks ANOTHER weak link it's because he was hamfisting something - and you retroactively assign the cause of the first weak link break to hamfisting SOMETHING. (The glider perhaps. Maybe a kayak. Hard to say for sure.)

So here ya go, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC

Davis,

Your weak link comments are dead on. I have been reading the weak link discussion in the OR with quiet amusement. Quiet, because weak links seem to be one of those hot button issues that brings out the argumentative nature of HG pilots and also invokes the "not designed here" mentality and I really did not want to get drawn into a debate. Amusement, because I find it odd that there was so much ink devoted to reinventing the wheel. Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition. Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.

You know who Steve Kroop is...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

Ditto dude.

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.

I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.

Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.

Right?

Steve Kroop says:

Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.

and you're saying only the worst of the worst hamfisted aerotow pilots are breaking Rooney Links. So why would the best of the best give flying fucks about using really safe weak links?

They don't need them. Do we see the best of the best aerotow pilots flying baggy, stable, kingposted gliders with big muppet training wheels and three point bridals? Fuck no! We see them on the pro toad bridals of the pro toads flying topless bladewings with bar carbon speedbars and sprogs cranked as low as they can get away with for tons of high speed performance. Why would an ultra smooth top gun want a heavier draggier Tad-O-Link when control difficulties on tow aren't in his vocabulary?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

I would think that it would be pretty much nothing but 582 technique muppets...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545
Cart stuck incidents

Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC

I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.

...who can't launch, tow, fly smoothly; remember to pull in; land worth shit; appreciate the danger of the Tad-O-Link...

Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 19:41:27 UTC

Why is the devil always in the fine print, and incidentally in the things people *don't* say.

Yes, go read that incident report.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability. She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
That never goes well.
Yet people insist on doing it.

...stop insisting on taking to the air at Mach 5 despite the fact that in never goes well would be the ones telling you millions of times they wanted doubled up weak links.

You say:

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

I don't tow solos under full power... you could't keep up with me if I did. I wouldn't be going faster horizontally, but my accelleration and climb rate would be so extreme that most pilots couldn't keep up the timing needed to make it work. (I think Bo's the only one I've successfully towed at full boost)

but you don't say what he's using for a weak link.

Your good friend Steve Kroop...

Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.

...tells us what he's using for a weak link. Seems like those things help a lot with the timing needed to keep up with you.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

The accepted standards and practices changed.

From what I haven't been hearing on the wire for the past three years it sounds like Tad-O-Links have been helping a lot of people with their 914 techniques and timing issues.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/03/07 02:01:20 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2008/05/04 10:50:46 UTC

That "pop" out of the cart is cuz one of two things.
A) you're lifting the cart into the air and dropping a couple hundred pounds when you let go... might have a bit of an effect eh?
B) you're hitting the propwash of the tug.

Snapping weaklinks because of "thrust"
Yeah, that hits on the "how" a bit...
That thrust is applied smoothly. What you're doing with it isn't.
Smooth will not break weaklinks.

In the end, you're achieving the same tow force. With a 914, you're getting there faster.
This is why I say towing behind a 914 takes a different technique.
Behind a 582 you're free to make all kinds of sharp corrections... you can get away with it. Not so on a 914.

When I see someone breaking weaklink after weaklink... they're always hamfisting something.

Hanging onto the cart and dropping it "pops" you because you're dropping a few hundred pounds... you radically alter your wingloading. This is the same as pushing out sharply. Yeah, that puts a sharp load on the weaklink. People get away with it behind a 582 most of the time (I've seen 'em botch that up too, just not as often) because you're not accellerating as quickly.

With faster acceleration, everything happens faster so everything you do is amplified. So little things like a "small push" become a big push even though you haven't "done anything differently". It's the same as getting in your car and starting to drive normally... now think of doing the same while stomping on the gas... every little twitch matters.

Hanging onto the cart and dropping it "pops" you because you're dropping a few hundred pounds...

Look out below...

Few hundred pound cart about to be dropped.

Nice job flying that few hundred pound cart...

16-1903

...dangling from the port end of your basetube there, Ricky. Totally righteous stuff. Might wanna shift your weight a bit more to the starboard to balance things out though. And make sure there aren't any people of varying ages below before you cut it loose.

Excellent work...

01-00525
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02-00927
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03-01600
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04-01611
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05-02017
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06-02317
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...helping get that 250 pound glider on that few hundred pound cart rolling to keep the 226 pound tops towline tension Rooney Link from having to do it all, Taylor.

Make sure you've got a really snug grip on those hold-downs when you're lifting the front/heavy end of that...

138-044705
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7207/14074317592_77545becd4_o.png

...few hundred pound cart, Peter Holloway student. And try not to lift it any more than you need to...

139-044801
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7458/13890875598_ccca985a15_o.png

Those few hundred pound cart bounces are pretty tough on the grass strip.

Must've been a real bitch getting run over by that few hundred pound cart after you came off early and whacked...

http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1562/25190537495_d9a39e894f_o.jpg

...Seppi.

Everybody see how much and how fast that cart gained weight? Thirteen sentences ago it was a...

A) you're lifting the cart into the air and dropping a couple hundred pounds when you let go... might have a bit of an effect eh?

...couple hundred pound cart. Now it's a few hundred - which, in this context, is obviously a minimum of three or four. So the cart weighs at least as much as a heavy solo glider and is in the ballpark of twice a little Karen Carra glider.

...you radically alter your wingloading.

Fuck yeah! What with the center of mass where it is on this tail dragging triangle my glider's pulling around two Gs when I get those wheels up an inch off the runway.

This is the same as pushing out sharply.

Hell, it's the same as pulling a coordinated turn at max placarded roll! Just a degree shy of aerobatics. Might be a good idea to pack two chutes. But that would increase your wingloading a little more. Better make it three chutes. And a Covert harness with built-in Screamers. Maybe an extra backup loop. Ya can't have too many backups.

Yeah, that puts a sharp load on the weaklink.

Goddam right. With that Quest 914 Mark Frutiger...

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7423/9652809977_b9e9b95b88_o.png

...was flying and Zack pitched up abruptly that puppy didn't have a chance in hell. Climbing hard in a near stall situation. Good thing he wasn't using a Tad-O-Link climbing even harder in an even nearer stall situation.

And SHARP loads are the worst kind. Much worse than HIGH loads. Smooth high loads will not break weak links because the weak links are able to adjust as the loading increases. With a big enough winch and enough time you can lift a battleship with a Rooney Link. Just be sure to bring a Russian novel with you 'cause it'll take a while.

People get away with it behind a 582 most of the time (I've seen 'em botch that up too, just not as often) because you're not accellerating as quickly.

Pity we can't just use 582s to increase the safety of the towing operations the way we do Rooney Links...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.

But...

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

Something made you get a 914 instead of a 582. 914s are horribly expensive to own and maintain. If you own one, you need it... it's a safety thing. Short runways, tall trees, whatever. You've got a 914 to increase your safety margin. So when it comes down to my safety or having a conversation, we're going to have a conversation.

It's a safety thing for the tug pilot. And those motherfuckers play by any rules they feel like making up on any whim. And if you don't like them...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC

Well actually he didn't. But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...

Feel free to go the tow park that Tad runs. Not a bad idea, actually, since 2015/11/08. The Flight Park Tad runs has been an infinitely more active resource than the flight park Hiih Gland Aerosports is running.

With faster acceleration, everything happens faster so everything you do is amplified.

What? Like control authority, response time, getting the fuck away from the runway and through the kill zone?

So little things like a "small push" become a big push even though you haven't "done anything differently".

- You mean control authority, responsiveness, getting the fuck away from the ground?

- And we stupid AT rated muppets, of course, are way the hell in over our heads flying at 35 mph airspeeds. When the "small push" becomes a big push we just freak out and push harder - hoping and praying for opposite results.

It's the same as getting in your car and starting to drive normally... now think of doing the same while stomping on the gas... every little twitch matters.

Yeah, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney. It's just like a car. Whenever you anticipate a hazardous situation ahead you slow way the fuck down so you have time to properly assess the situation and think about the best course of action. And in hang gliding we've got the Rooney Link to guarantee that we'll never fly too fast into - or through - a problematic situation.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

And I got more news for ya - asshole... Glider manufacturers have been in an arms race since the beginning of time to get the control authority up to the point at which every little twitch matters - the way it does in conventional aircraft with articulating control surfaces.

Kite Strings

Departing the launch cart - Davis Show

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