Hey, Entelin. Ask Davis about the load to actuation ratio of his barrel releases. See how far that gets you.Matt Pruett - 2016/03/22 02:10:37 UTC
Is there any consensus on what the best/safest aerotow primary release is?
Funny, I was just looking at that very same video some hours back. Antoine references it about a half hour after and in response to Davis's duplicitous post. Was thinking about pulling some stills but the video probably conveys the issue better.Davis Straub - 2013/03/10 14:09:22 UTC
I've had no problem releasing my barrel release hundreds of times.
Hey Graeme. I first called you a motherfucker the better part of two and a half years ago - 2013/10/20 18:54:11 UTC. Totally nailed it.Graeme Henderson - 2016/03/23 06:12:16 UTC
Nasty, fancy sending someone to the lunatic asylum.
Matt Pruett - 2016/03/23 06:27:30 UTC
I spent quite a bit of time reading Tad Erickson's posts (probably spent a full day at it honestly), prior to making this thread. The only thing I have to say about all of that is this: ideas are cheap, talk is cheap. If someone thinks they can improve on the status quo, make a product with good documentation and sell it, get it into peoples hands, if it's a notable improvement then it will be adopted and/or influence other designs.
I don't have the expertise to build a towing system, nor do I have the flight experience to be a test pilot. Which is why I only listed products, made for the purpose, that actually exist in this thread.
So getting back on topic: For clarification I'm flying a Falcon 4, the bar pressure attempting to pro tow that would be quite substantial I imagine. So does anyone have thoughts on the various releases I linked, or others I have not yet found? I should order one here in the next week or so. Looking forward to flying again after the winter
Not quite long enough to have gotten much of a fuckin' clue how to spell my last name. (Good job on the first however. Puts you head and shoulders over at least one...I spent quite a bit of time reading Tad Erickson's posts...
...of your idiot douchebag Davis Show correspondents. (And by the way... Mr. Wheels is a big fan of big phenmantics. Those little plastic snap-off jobs are worth shit when you need them. Just make sure they're properly inflated and you install them with the valve stems outboard.))Jim Rooney - 2008/04/19 01:15:24 UTC
Uh guys... I was there. I watched it. I can tell you... wheels wouldn't have done squat. Pick any set... big phenmantics, whatever. He hit first, then the glider. Same as the guy JD's talking about back in NJ.
Discuss wheels in general if you feel so inclined, but sorry, not in this case.
I still find it hilarious that Tadd's "Mr Wheels" now.
Whatever.
- So how many posts did you get through? Four? Five?...(probably spent a full day at it honestly)...
And your reason for not responding in this thread was...?...prior to making this thread.
Depends a lot upon how you figure. This cheap talk of yours got you banned from Kite Strings - 2016/03/23 12:03:41 UTC. And there's virtually no chance whatsoever of that ever being reversed. Hope you're happy with the company of the group you just joined.The only thing I have to say about all of that is this: ideas are cheap, talk is cheap.
- Suck my dick.If someone thinks they can improve on the status quo, make a product with good documentation and sell it, get it into peoples hands, if it's a notable improvement then it will be adopted and/or influence other designs.
...then it will be adopted and/or influence other designs. That's why we've come the huge distance in primary aerotow primary releases we have in the past quarter century. A bit odd that you needed to start an "Aerotow primary releases?" thread on The Davis Show to try to find something that actually works.Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC
Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.
I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.
The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.
That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.
Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.
A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????
Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.
- But you DO have the expertise to aerotow and handle everything that Mother Nature and some stupid fuck on a Dragonfly can throw at you with your Industry Standard equipment...I don't have the expertise to build a towing system...
Neither did any of those motherfuckers, apparently....nor do I have the flight experience to be a test pilot.
Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC
Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.
So what Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney is saying is that EVERYONE is a TEST PILOT *ALL* the fuckin' TIME. There's no point at which anyone stops being a test pilot because everyone who flies any piece of tow equipment - including weak links with various pressure ratings - is contributing to the LEEEEENGTH of the TRACK RECORD. And what else do we have to look at other than track record leeeeength? Bench testing is obviously of no value whatsoever....Jim Rooney - 2016/03/22 06:17:16 UTC
For "pro-towing", barrel's work well and have a looooong track record.
...
Don't be a test pilot.
...because lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exist in the big, real world. So any piece of hardware that anyone wants to put in the air is no better or worse than the pet rat on the leash trained to gnaw through the bridle on the "HOLY SHIT!" command.Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.
What we have covered in this article is practical information and knowledge gleaned from the real world of aerotowing, developed over decades and hundreds of thousands of tows by experts in the field. This information has practical external validity. Hopefully, someone will develop methods and technology that work better than what we are using as standard practice today. Like the methods and technology used today, it is unlikely that the new technology will be dictated onto us as a de jure standard. Rather, to become a de facto standard, that new technology will need to be made available in the marketplace, proven in the real world, and then embraced by our sport.
...don't have the expertise to set up and preflight a glider well enough to be reasonably assured it won't kill you on launch. So what difference does it make whether you kill yourself as a garden variety Two or Three pilot or a test pilot?Matt Pruett - 2016/03/22 02:10:37 UTC
I think I personally experienced that on one occasion where I had failed to preflight my glider properly, and the crossbar was pulling one wing tight causing a lockout immediately on launch.
So tell me how that's not being a test pilot for Lockout Mountain Flight Park equipment? Name some other things that can go wrong with an aerotow release? Cite me something from the past third of a century which wasn't either a release not working when it was supposed to or working when it wasn't supposed to and thus increasing the safety of the towing operation.In that situation I remember pulling on the release, but the weak link beat me to it. At the time I was unaware that the force it takes to pull the release can be notably higher at higher loading.
Damn. That counts me out. I made mine for the purpose of game fishing competitions. After reading about all the great stuff 130 pound Greenspot was doing for us I figured that was the best design strategy.Which is why I only listed products made for the purpose...
Yeah. It's an older LMFP model:Matt Pruett - 2016/03/22 02:10:37 UTC
LMFP Release - I've mainly used this type of barrel release thus far (though it was either an older LMFP model, or a different brand, because it doesnt look exactly the same as this).
I thought you said:GT Manufacturing Inc. (GT) and Lookout Mountain Flight Park Inc. (LMFP) make no claim of serviceability of this tow equipment. There is no product liability insurance covering this gear and we do not warrant this gear as suitable for towing anything.
So what "PURPOSE" are you talking about? The only clearly stated purpose of the Lockout Mountain Flight Park "release" you're using is to make money off of stupid twats who can't find any better piece o' junk with which to hook themselves up behind a 115 horsepower Dragonfly.Which is why I only listed products, made for the purpose...
So I strike out on both counts......that actually exist...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=233Dan Tomlinson - 2005/08/31 00:33:01 UTC
Tad's post is difficult to read but I've seen his work. His release mechanism is elegant in its simplicity and effectiveness.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467Hugh McElrath - 2005/03/05 17:02:56 UTC
Thanks, Tad. I was too green to fully appreciate your system when you showed it to me a couple of years ago. Now I'm more interested. Do I have to fabricate this myself from parts or are you in business?
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3347Brian Vant-Hull - 2007/07/21 13:00:33 UTC
I'll be lazy and ask if any of your references give a physical reason for the 0.8 to 2 g range they quote as safe. If not, constructing a reasonable physical argument could be a major contribution. You clearly have the physics down well enough (as good as anyone else in the world) to do so.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497Janni Papakrivos - 2008/06/30 15:35:44 UTC
Tad showed me the release system he installed in Hugh's glider. I was amazed at the quality and complexity of the system. Being able to tow and release without ever having to take your hands off the base tube is wonderful and much safer.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12587John Glime - 2009/04/13 18:09:32 UTC
Not being constructive? There is one person who has put more thought and time into releases than anyone. That person is Tad. He explains the pros and cons to every release out there. I gave you the link to more release information than the average person could ever digest, and I didn't get a thank you. Just you bitching that we aren't being constructive. What more could you want? He has created something that is a solution, but no one is using it... apparently you aren't interested either. So what gives??? What do you want us to tell you? Your concerns echo Tad's concerns, so why not use his system? Every other system out there has known flaws.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497Patrick Halfhill - 2009/06/21 23:22:23 UTC
You and I met at the ECC a few years ago. We spent 45 minutes or more together going over your system. I saw it first hand. I was quite impressed with the quality of engineering and the time you spent on it.
Walt Conklin - 2009/05/03 16:19:44 UTC
Very nice engineering, Tad.I can see a lot of thought went into the systems and there is always room to "build a better mousetrap".
Every system we use in this sport can be improved on. Look where we progressed from since I first flew in 71'.
My release doesn't ACTUALLY EXIST...Zack C - 2011/01/10 14:28:40 UTC
When I first saw your release years ago on the Oz Report forum my impression was the same as most people's. I didn't know what the pictures were showing but it looked way more complicated than it needed to be. After seeing the problems that even the best releases on the market have and learning more about your release, however, I understand why you made it the way you did and the advantages it provides.
It's just a product of my fevered imagination.Brian Vant-Hull - 2008/06/30 13:48:08 UTC
I, Brian Vant-Hull (hereafter referred to variously as "I" or "me") in the company of James Rooney (hereafter variously referred to as "Jim" or "Rooney" (collectively referred to as "we")) do attest that on Saturday, June 28, I have laid hands upon and inspected, under controlled and numerically repeatable conditions, the barrel release (hereafter referred to as "Tad's Release") constructed by Thaddeus Eareckson (hereafter referred to as "Tad") and have compared it under identical conditions to the 'Bailey' barrel release.
We found that under a load of 194 pounds the Bailey release required a very strong tug (I couldn't do it at first) while Tad's release could be actuated with the friction of two fingers at twice that load. Rooney could actuate the Bailey release immediately, but admitted they practiced this during tandem training, so he knew to wrap his fingers over the top and pull vigorously. I do not believe that if the forces became this strong I could operate the Bailey release with the alacrity required under lockout conditions, but could actuate the Tad release. I won't speak for Jim, but
Under weight of these observations, I do attest that TAD's RELEASE is SUPERIOR to the BAILEY RELEASE and that the BAILEY RELEASE is SERIOUSLY FLAWED UNDER HIGH LOADS.
In witness thereof, I attach my signature and moreover have purchased Tad's release.
...typical Davis Show Dedicated Sycophant douchebag......in this...
After this latest brief swing into semiliterate insanity......thread.
So getting back on topic:
Nah. Go for it. Just use an extra safe weak link - one with a very looooong track record. You'll be fine.For clarification I'm flying a Falcon 4, the bar pressure attempting to pro tow that would be quite substantial I imagine.
On The Davis Show?So does anyone have thoughts...
Go with this one:...on the various releases I linked...
Others you have not yet found? I thought you said:...or others I have not yet found?
How is anything you haven't even found yet possibly gonna meet your sterling standards for AT equipment?I don't have the expertise to build a towing system, nor do I have the flight experience to be a test pilot. Which is why I only listed products, made for the purpose, that actually exist in this thread.
Try:I should order one here in the next week or so.
I'm really looking forward to you flying again too. I'm praying with all my heart I can use you as another data point.Looking forward to flying again after the winter
That was inspired by my advancements on AT releases and developed from the ground up with my collaboration. And I'm SERIOUSLY considering writing Joe and asking him to refuse to sell you one. I'm tired of seeing total douchebags sticking around and staying healthy in this sport.Matt Pruett - 2016/03/22 02:10:37 UTC
I'm currently leaning towards getting a getoffrelease for the primary.
JD Guillemette - 2016/03/23 09:37:33 UTC
Hi Entelin,
Just to clarify what i meant about the weak link getting cut at the hinge, it happens under tow loads and not during the release. The issue is that the ring that the webbing is attached to (anchor point) is directly opposite the hinge. So under full tow loads and everything is pulled into to straight line, the weak link can get pulled into the hinge and get cut. It doesn't happen every tow but it happened enough that at least one release fabricator changed the anchor point of so it's not directly opposite the hinge (as previously pictured) I forget where I bought that release but that was how I bought it. It worked fine for several seasons until I moved on to more advanced gliders and tow technique. One thing I always did after set up is to do a test release to make sure it was adjusted properly and the cable is not bound up.
And yes, with a falcon class glider the tow forces will likely be too high to "pro-tow" (from the chest) comfortably, I don't know I never tried it with a falcon. But once you move on to your next glider you will probably graduate to pro-tow as well and that release will go into your gear bag and not be used much. I just flew a sport 2 pro-tow last weekend ... no problem at 3/4 VG with light bar pressure. but I have a lot of experience towing from the chest.
The debate has been going on for years (as you can tell)... straight pin ... curved pin ... weak links ... release mechanism ... and it's hard to filter through all the noise. Even my opinion has changed over the years. I still fly with curved pin barrel release on my chest with a release on both sides. I used to fly with a single loop of green spot 120lbs, but in competition conditions in rowdy air those would break frequently and now use single loop of 200 lbs ... I also hook in at 225 lbs so i'm pretty heavy. If I was lighter and only flew mild conditions I would consider going back to 120 green spot.
I use only one weak link on my left (secondary) release. Some people don't use a secondary release on the chest and just have weak link on one side and a release on the other, I did this for a while too. However once at the end of calm tow, my bridle wrapped the tow line after release. The conventional wisdom is that the weak link will break if the bridle wraps, but mine (120 green spot) did not ... at least not right away. I thought for a moment to cut it with the hook knife, but instead i speed up, made slack in the tow line, and then pushed out and it popped. Since then I always have release on both sides so i can dump the bridal if i ever wrap again.
I mostly tow in comps so things need to be simple and streamline. if there was a better release that I didn't need my hand to release and was not difficult and sloppy to rig I would consider it. Mouth releases are interesting, but do you get one that releases on the bite or one that releases on the open mouth (spit it out). Each system has pros and cons.
I'm sure at least one person in particular is going to shoot down what I have said and interject their own opinion, but what I do works for me, and is the "norm" for most comp pilots.
I'm not sure where you fly, but I live in Phoenix AZ area and will be at the FL comps in few weeks. If you happen to be in either area look me up.
Bye Entelin.Hi Entelin...
During release it gets cut by the notch on the end of the gate. But we shouldn't do anything about any spinnaker shackle issues because a quarter century ago Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey walked out of a sailing shop with a Wichard spinnaker shackle and drilled it and welded a cable housing stop onto it and...Just to clarify what i meant about the weak link getting cut at the hinge, it happens under tow loads and not during the release.
...it just bothers JD when people try to "improve" upon his "designs".JD Guillemette - 2008/02/07 12:51:57 UTC
For these same reasons, It just bothers me when people try to "improve" upon Bobby Bailey's designs ... simply put, the designs are at the maximum of efficiency and safety. So I'm right back to where I was. I see no problem in the way things are currently done and creating overly complicated mouth actuated releases is just a waste of time.
The ANCHOR POINT is on the fuckin' glider. And I'm pretty sure you're not gonna be able to come up with anybody referring to an ANCHOR POINT with respect to a tow system prior to Yours Truly. Ditto for "bent pin release".The issue is that the ring that the webbing is attached to (anchor point)...
Yeah... Under full tow loads everything is pulled into to a straight line. Don't like the sound of that AT ALL....is directly opposite the hinge. So under full tow loads and everything is pulled into to straight line...
Has anybody ever bench tested that hypothesis? I NEVER had that issue with a spinnaker shackle I installed in MY system. And I never once flew any Quallaby crap....the weak link can get pulled into the hinge and get cut.
- Quest.It doesn't happen every tow but it happened enough that at least one release fabricator...
Get fucked. They drilled the base to misalign the spinnaker shackle connected between the anchor point and bridle end....changed the anchor point...
Yes. They changed the anchor point OF so it's not directly opposite the hinge....of so it's not directly opposite the hinge...
...(as previously pictured)...
Keep working on buying it, JD. I'm always pulling for ya.I forget where I bought that release but that was how I bought it.
Oh great. Increased the leeeeength of the track record.It worked fine for several seasons...
Oh good. A more ADVANCED......until I moved on to more advanced gliders and tow technique.
...tow technique. So tell me JD... If this is a more ADVANCED tow technique how come there's no u$hPa PT Special Skill signoff to let tow operators know the pilot is properly qualified? How come? 'Cause it would be tough to describe the "SKILL" involved? 'Cause u$hPa's already stated IN PRINT on more than one occasion that there is no skill involved and it's DANGEROUS?Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2011/11
However, there is no upper tow point when pro-towing, so there is nothing but your body weight to hold down the nose of your glider while launching and towing. In that case, you should hold your weight farther forward than at best glide speed when lying prone in the cart just prior to launch, because your body needs to be farther forward while towing. In fact, vertical lockouts are all too common with pro-towing, because sometimes pilots cannot move far enough forward to keep the nose down. A vertical lockout is very dangerous for both the tug pilot and the hang glider pilot.
Pilots should also realize that the cone of safety is much smaller when pro-towing than when using a normal 3-point aerotow bridle with an upper tow point, and. that lockouts occur much quicker when pro-towing. For these reasons, we discourage pro-towing here at Cloud 9. It is a safety risk that some top comp pilots may wish to take for a miniscule amount of better high speed glide performance, but otherwise is a risk that just isn't worth taking for the vast majority of other pilots who aerotow.
And that it'll function under a good twenty pounds of load. What else could we POSSIBLY need to worry about?One thing I always did after set up is to do a test release to make sure it was adjusted properly and the cable is not bound up.
- Oh. It's the high TOW FORCES that'll make a pro toad uncomfortable going up. So how 'bout THIS:And yes, with a falcon class glider the tow forces will likely be too high to "pro-tow" (from the chest) comfortably...
Put a comma in there. It'll make you easier to understand. (And we need all the help we can get.) Also try holding down the shift key a little more often.I don't know I never tried it with a falcon.
Can I come to the ceremony? Please, please, please, please, please!But once you move on to your next glider you will probably graduate to pro-tow as well...
I'll bet Zack Marzec's got one that went into his gear bag and isn't getting used much....and that release will go into your gear bag and not be used much.
Where was the bar?I just flew a sport 2 pro-tow last weekend ... no problem at 3/4 VG with light bar pressure.
You must be pretty good then. What other ways are you decertifying your glider as your skills progress and you move ever closer to mastery of Mother Nature?but I have a lot of experience towing from the chest.
- 'Specially if you've got a brain the size of a fuckin' walnut - *JD*.The debate has been going on for years (as you can tell)... straight pin ... curved pin ... weak links ... release mechanism ... and it's hard to filter through all the noise.
- That's good that *EVEN* YOUR *OPINION* has changed over the years. The guys I'm working with get their UNDERSTANDINGS changed in SECONDS.Even my opinion has changed over the years.
- We generally refer to pulling off the SHOULDERS in AT. We're down a good bit from the top but still in shoulders territory. And that's the dynamic.I still fly with curved pin barrel release on my chest...
- As opposed to both releases on one side....with a release on both sides.
Even safer than 130. Good on ya, mate.I used to fly with a single loop of green spot 120lbs...
- Not meeting your expectation of being strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks in turbulence? Are you sure you're tying them properly to break more consistently?...but in competition conditions in rowdy air those would break frequently...
- Why don't you just hide the knot on 130 so's it will break at 260?...and now use single loop of 200 lbs ...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265Marc Fink - 2007/05/19 12:58:31 UTC
A 400lb load limit for a solo tow is absurd.
...shit. Can we find something in print that identifies two hundred as an appropriate comp weak link?Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC
In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052I also hook in at 225 lbs so i'm pretty heavy.
How many megatons of Ridgely/CHGA SHIT did you motherfuckers dump on me when I was pushing for two hundred pound weak links about a decade ago?Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC
The law of the land at comps was 130lb greenspot or you don't tow. Seriously. It was announced before the comp that this would be the policy. Some guys went and made their case to the safety committee and were shut down. So yeah, sorry... suck it up.
- Yeah JD. If I were ten years old and clipped into a baby Falcon at 75 pounds and only flew in sled shit I might consider 120 pound Greenspot too - if that flavor of fishing line actually existed. 'Specially if I were flying bent pin placebo releases I didn't want overloaded.If I was lighter and only flew mild conditions I would consider going back to 120 green spot.
What kind of fishing line do you think HE should've had on his pro toad bridle when he was slamming into one of the most powerful thermals ever encountered coming out of Quest through the mild conditions that had until that moment been the word for the day?Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 20:32:10 UTC
180 lb pilots, 75 pound glider, 38" tow bridle, chest loops 12" apart, pro tow set up.
- Fuck yeah... If you had another two hundred pound weak link on your right shoulder you wouldn't have your instant hands free release come into play until...I use only one weak link on my left (secondary) release.
eight hundred pounds. And if you hid the knot à la Dr. Trisa Tilletti for a more consistent breaking strength you'd be up to sixteen hundred. And then the weak link might not break when it was supposed to.Juan Saa - 2012/10/18 01:19:49 UTC
Boca Raton
The normal braking force in pounds for a weak link is around 180, at least that is the regular weak link line used at most aerotow operations. By adding a second weak link to your bridal you are cutting the load on each link by half, meaning that the weak link will not break at the intended 180 pounds but it will need about 360.
If that is what you use and is what your instructor approved then I have no business on interfering, i dont know if you are using the same weak link material but there shoul be only ONE weak link on a tow bridle for it to be effective in breaking before higher loads are put into you and the glider should the glider gets to an attitude or off track so much that the safety fuse of the link is needed to break you free from the tug.
I made the same mistake on putting two weak links thinking that I was adding protection to my setup and I was corrected by two instructors on separate occacions at Quest Air and at the Florida RIdge.
I thought we all played by the same rules or we didn't play.Some people don't use a secondary release on the chest and just have weak link on one side and a release on the other...
'Cause there'd be like no fuckin' way you could ever have a bridle wrap and still only be getting 125 pounds of pull from the tug.I did this for a while too.
The tow LINE or the tow RING? There's a DIFFERENCE.However once at the end of calm tow, my bridle wrapped the tow line...
As opposed to BEFORE release....after release.
...whatever Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney TELLS everybody it is.The conventional wisdom is...
Hard to get much more conventional wisdom than that....that the weak link will break if the bridle wraps...
Keep screwing 130 pound Greenspot up as many ways as possible. Give "greenspun" a shot if you run out of ideas....but mine (120 green spot)...
Instant hands free release!...did not ... at least not right away. I thought for a moment to cut it with the hook knife, but instead i speed up, made slack in the tow line, and then pushed out and it popped.
No stress because you were high.Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC
I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
This why you need to be EXPERIENCED to be able to make brain dead obvious modifications to your tow configuration.Since then I always have release on both sides so i can dump the bridal if i ever wrap again.
- And what better way to streamline than to drop letters from the ends of words.I mostly tow in comps so things need to be simple and streamline.
Unless it were something that Tad developed before Ridgely got its first glider off the ground at the beginning of the 1999 season. Then FUCK THAT....if there was a better release that I didn't need my hand to release and was not difficult and sloppy to rig I would consider it.
So rather than pick one or try both the SMART thing to do is...Mouth releases are interesting, but do you get one that releases on the bite or one that releases on the open mouth (spit it out). Each system has pros and cons.
Ya think - motherfucker?I'm sure at least one person in particular is going to shoot down what I have said...
I don't do OPINIONS. I don't TOLERATE them....and interject their own opinion...
- Name some dead people who weren't doing what worked for them - until it didn't one lovely summer afternoon....but what I do works for me...
Hard to "argue" with that. If there's one thing at which hang gliding really excels it's adhering to......and is the "norm" for most comp pilots.
..."norms" - regardless of how totally moronic and insane they are.Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTCPilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.
Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb. Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
Gonna catch the ECC after that?I'm not sure where you fly, but I live in Phoenix AZ area and will be at the FL comps in few weeks.
Yeah, you guys can have melding of minds and get your collective IQ up into double digits.If you happen to be in either area look me up.
I'm praying for him to say something and he may be just smart enough to know that and keep his mouth shut.Oh dear lord... don't do that to him without warning him!
That dude is a serious nutcase.
I'm not kidding in the least.
...was to gradually, quietly sneak it out of circulation - as they wouldn't be able to get away with doing it overnight. But they didn't do it fast enough to prevent the most historically important and spectacular fatal crash in the history of hang glider aerotowing. We'd never even had an inconvenience tumble at altitude before. (Boy did everything line up just right for that one.)Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).
Davis Straub - 2013/02/19 03:13:45 UTC
Yup. The orange string used for tandems at Wallaby. Has been for years. I use it also. 200 lbs.
And no response from the world's foremost 130 pound Greenspot Nazi.Zack C - 2013/02/19 05:35:59 UTC
Any chance this stuff will be allowed at Big Spring this year?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8331326948/JD Guillemette - 2008/02/22 17:11:47 UTC
Looks like Tad has been busy in his work shop doing some test to discredit the Bailey release. We might have done a public service keeping him occupied in his work shop and out of public.
Come on Tad lets get reasonable, for the tow forces involved, the curved pin is fine. You had to put 220 lbs of force to get the curved pin to bend/fail.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=47096For a "Pro-Tow" configuration (shoulder tow) that would mean 220 lbs of force on each shoulder, so that's 440 lbs on the tow line. For a solo tow ... I doubt it.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033JD Guillemette - 2016/03/23 09:37:33 UTC
The debate has been going on for years (as you can tell)... straight pin ... curved pin ... weak links ... release mechanism ... and it's hard to filter through all the noise. Even my opinion has changed over the years. I still fly with curved pin barrel release on my chest with a release on both sides. I used to fly with a single loop of green spot 120lbs, but in competition conditions in rowdy air those would break frequently and now use single loop of 200 lbs ... I also hook in at 225 lbs so i'm pretty heavy. If I was lighter and only flew mild conditions I would consider going back to 120 green spot.
I use only one weak link on my left (secondary) release. Some people don't use a secondary release on the chest and just have weak link on one side and a release on the other, I did this for a while too. However once at the end of calm tow, my bridle wrapped the tow line after release. The conventional wisdom is that the weak link will break if the bridle wraps, but mine (120 green spot) did not ... at least not right away. I thought for a moment to cut it with the hook knife, but instead i speed up, made slack in the tow line, and then pushed out and it popped. Since then I always have release on both sides so i can dump the bridal if i ever wrap again.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC
I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
I wonder how many generations of careful selective breeding it takes to get a primate that incomprehensibly stupid.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 17:34:33 UTC
Try fitting a straight pin release with anything but weaklink. (it doesn't quite fit the same) OH! Right. Just might be that we've thought of that eh?
http://estore.hanglide.com/images/product/a/aerotow-release-primary-barrel.pngAEROTOW EQUIPMENT / PRIMARY AEROTOW RELEASE, LOOP RELEASE
Primary Aerotow Release, Loop Release
$139.95
Hurry, only 1 left in stock!
The best loop release on the market
HOVER OVER IMAGE TO ZOOM
http://estore.hanglide.com/aerotow-equipment-primary-aerotow-release-brake-lever-release/dp/1660PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
We offer the primary release in two configurations.
The loop release configuration is favored by some pilots becuase, you don't have to let go of the basetube to actuate the release
You can also check out the brake lever release mechanism configuration. The brake lever release configuration is favored by some pilots becuase, due to the mechanical advantage of the lever, there is less release pressure when actuating the release.
All release configurations are manufactured here by LMFP and the release tension is tested at varying pounds of tension.
OTHER ITEMS YOU MAY BE INTERESTED IN:
$29.95 - AEROTOW SECONDARY RELEASE
$19.95 - AEROTOW BRIDLE SPECTRA
http://estore.hanglide.com/images/product/a/aerotow-primary-release-barrel-with-brake-lever.pngAEROTOW EQUIPMENT / PRIMARY AEROTOW RELEASE, BRAKE LEVER RELEASE
Primary Aerotow Release, Brake Lever Release
Primary Aerotow Release, Brake Lever Release
$159.00
6 Available
The best brake lever release on the market.
HOVER OVER IMAGE TO ZOOM
http://estore.hanglide.com/aerotow-equipment-aerotow-secondary-release/dp/591PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
We offer the primary release in two configurations.
The brake lever release configuration is favored by some pilots becuase, due to the mechanical advantage of the lever, there is less release pressure when actuating the release.
You can also check out the loop release mechanism configuration. Some pilots prefer the loop release mechanism because you don't have to let go of the basetube to actuate the release.
All release configurations are manufactured here by LMFP and the release tension is tested at varying pounds of tension
OTHER ITEMS YOU MAY BE INTERESTED IN:
$29.95 - AEROTOW SECONDARY RELEASE
$19.95 - AEROTOW BRIDLE SPECTRA
AEROTOW EQUIPMENT / AEROTOW SECONDARY RELEASE
Aerotow Secondary Release
$29.95
22 Available
Your back up release.
HOVER OVER IMAGE TO ZOOM
http://estore.hanglide.com/aerotow-equipment-aerotow-bridle-spectra/dp/587PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
Manufactured and tested here at LMFP.
OTHER ITEMS YOU MAY BE INTERESTED IN:
$139.95 - PRIMARY AEROTOW RELEASE, LOOP RELEASE
$019.95 - $19.95 - AEROTOW BRIDLE SPECTRA
http://estore.hanglide.com/images/product/a/aerotow-bridle-spectra.pgnAEROTOW EQUIPMENT / AEROTOW BRIDLE SPECTRA
Aerotow Bridle Spectra
$19.95
6 Available
HOVER OVER IMAGE TO ZOOM
---PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
Manufactured and tested here at LMFP.
OTHER ITEMS YOU MAY BE INTERESTED IN:
$029.95 - AEROTOW SECONDARY RELEASE
$139.95 - PRIMARY AEROTOW RELEASE, LOOP RELEASE
If you want something that may spell the difference between life and death on your next flight you better act now! 'Cause second place is a death sentence! We've been too busy flying tandem thrill rides to maintain an adequate inventory. But what the hell... - Hook Knife With Pouch, $19.95, 19 Available.Hurry, only 1 left in stock!
Yeah. They bench tested Joe Street's and found it to be inferior in every way. No, wait. He uses a Monkey's Fist on the end of the lanyard. So it's not in the running.The best loop release on the market
But this really isn't a big fuckin' deal - not a life or death issue by any stretch of the imagination. It's just something FAVORED BY the odd pilot here and there who doesn't want the INCONVENIENCE of letting go of the basetube to actuate the release.The loop release configuration is favored by some pilots becuase, you don't have to let go of the basetube to actuate the release
I most assuredly will. I'm not at all certain I'm one of the pilots who favor not having to let go of the basetube to actuate the release. Obviously there's no glider control compromise involved... If there were you most surely would've emphasized that point.You can also check out the brake lever release mechanism configuration.
See? Other pilots favor the brake lever release becuase, due to the mechanical advantage of the lever, there is less release pressure when actuating the release. As opposed to actuating the chicken. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. Merely a preference thing. I'll probably flip a coin.The brake lever release configuration is favored by some pilots becuase, due to the mechanical advantage of the lever, there is less release pressure when actuating the release.
Oh good. One of the things I most insist on when selecting a release configuration is knowing that it was manufactured there by Lockout Mountain Flight Park. That tells me that it was manufactured there by Lockout Mountain Flight Park and not home made. And Lockout Mountain Flight Park has always had such a sterling reputation for aerotow quality. Which makes one wonder just a bit why the offerings have varied so dramatically from one flavor to the next.All release configurations are manufactured here by LMFP...
With the tension varying from zero to thirty pounds we got pretty satisfactory results. As we varied them up to fifty things started getting problematic. Sixty to seventy... Four or five sharp jerks usually did the trick. Varying beyond that......and the release tension is tested at varying pounds of tension.
---HANG GLIDING FOR BEGINNER PILOTS
By Peter Cheney
Published by Matt Taber
Official Flight Training Manual of the U. S. Hang Gliding Association
Hook knife: A hook knife is a razor-sharp cutting tool that can slash through lines in an instant. You should never tow without one - in an emergency, you can use it to cut the tow-line or bridle. The hook knife must be mounted on your harness so that you can reach it quickly and easily.
- Yeah. MY backup release. You've already decided for me what it will be and what kind of pin it'll have.Your back up release.
...rather conspicuously DOESN'T appear in this listing. I guess a "back up" release doesn't qualify as a "release configuration". Oh well, it's just a back up release and there's no possibility of one of the best release configurations on the market failing or the Aerotow Bridle Spectra wrapping so what the hell.All release configurations are manufactured here by LMFP and the release tension is tested at varying pounds of tension.
Doesn't say primary or secondary so I guess you just buy two and use one for the primary and the other for the secondary...Aerotow Bridle Spectra
- Oh good. It's manufactured there at Lockout Mountain Flight Park. Eye splices in the ends of a length of hollow braid Spectra. Glad it's not any of that homemade crap some pilots think they can put together from something they saw at a hardware store.Manufactured and tested here at LMFP.
...people of varying ages? That's an inadvertent admission that the cable binding issue makes it unacceptably dangerous to mount the brake lever assembly on the control bar.The loop release configuration is favored by some pilots becuase, you don't have to let go of the basetube to actuate the release
Breaks if you get too far off heading and a lockout BEGINS to DEVELOP. You're still under control, you can still bring the glider back to the center of the Cone of Safety.HANG GLIDING FOR BEGINNER PILOTS
By Peter Cheney
Published by Matt Taber
Official Flight Training Manual of the U. S. Hang Gliding Association
Lockouts can be prevented by using good technique, light tow pressures, and appropriately-sized weak links--if you get too far off heading, and a lockout begins to develop, a proper weak link will break and release you from tow.
In aeronautical engineering the goal is to make everything just a fair bit stronger than it'll ever NEED to be. You don't really need a hang strap that's good for thirty Gs connecting you to a keel...Tad Eareckson - 2006/07/10
Barrel Release, Barrel retracted, under 400 pound direct load. Note flex of Pin Shaft.
has VANISHED.Matt Taber - 2011/07/20
The best release in the industry.
This Aerotow Primary Release represents the state-of-the-art in releases. Made at LMFP, this release features the Rope-Loop type release mechanism, a better alternative to the lever release as you don't have to let go of the basetube to release.
We are very excited about our new barrel release mechanism. It has exceeded all of our expectations and has passed rigorous testing.
A recent testimonial from a long time aerotow pilot...Hi Matt, Just a quick note to let you know how much I like your new Primary Aerotow release. Living in the flat lands of the mid-west, I've been towing hang gliders, using ground-based towing systems, since 1983 and, using aerotowing systems, since 1992. Over the years, I've used just about every kind of bridle and release system I saw or even heard about. Some were commercially made and some were homemade. They all worked pretty well as long as long as I was in, more or less, straight and level flight and there was no extraordinary tow force being exerted on the release. But, While rolling on the launch cart or just after leaving the cart and blundering into a thermal or otherwise getting out shape and entering into an incipient lock-out, the problems with all of my previous releases reared their ugly heads. Either I was so out of shape that I didn't want to let go of my base tube in order to activate my release or the tow pressure would quickly build up to the point where the release wouldn't operate. Since these situations occasionally do happen, until this summer, I was still searching for a better release. One which I could operate without taking my hand off of the base tube AND one which would still operate using moderate release force with the tow pressure approaching the breaking strength of my weak link. I think that, for now at least, my search is over. Not only has your new release been elegantly designed, it also works as advertised! Thanks for making this improved design available to us tow heads.
Hate to see endorsements such as that wasted on a site only accessible by individuals on Davis Dead-On Straub's approved list.Jim Rooney - 2016/03/22 06:17:16 UTC
http://estore.hanglide.com/aerotow-equipment-primary-aerotow-release-brake-lever-release/dp/1660
http://estore.hanglide.com/aerotow-equipment-primary-aerotow-release-loop-release/dp/590
Hard to beat the Lookout Mountain primary release.
Pick your flavour... bike handle or pull chord.
And every single one of the posts you spent about a full day reading had the author identified as:Matt Pruett - 2016/03/23 06:27:30 UTC
I spent quite a bit of time reading Tad Erickson's posts (probably spent a full day at it honestly), prior to making this thread.
And that's the closest accuracy you were able to achieve. Speaks volumes about your care in reading and getting things right.Tad Eareckson
Arguably the stupidest sentence in the history of even The Davis Show - despite the fact that, in your particular case, no truer words were spoken. But people who have actual intelligence and principles understand that there's little more precious than ideas and talk.The only thing I have to say about all of that is this: ideas are cheap, talk is cheap.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681Bob Kuczewski - 2011/02/12 06:56:36 UTC
Without naming names (I'm curious to see if they'll own up to it first), on May 10, 2009, one Director wrote:That same day, another Director responded:We need to consider getting an injunction against this guy communicating with the FAA on this subject.For those who don't know, Tim Herr is ... USHPA's lawyer!!I forwarded the letter to Tim Herr yesterday asking about this.
A third Director (who I'll call "Mr. X") chimed in that same day with this:Perhaps a strongly worded letter from Tim will do the trick. We can't force Tad to work within the USHPA framework but we can make it unpleasant and expensive for him if he chooses to makes derogatory and false statements about USHPA to the FAA he can't back up.
Mark G. Forbes - 2015/03/31 03:10:32 UTC
I'm not either, so I rely on the advice I get from people who are. Based on our past experience, comments in club forums and venues like this one can and will be cited in court. As an example, a comment as innocuous as "Let's all keep an eye out for each other out there" was used to argue that every pilot present at a launch site had a duty to prevent a launched-unhooked fatal accident. The pilots at the site didn't know that the pilot in question was intent on launching; they thought he was just walking over to the ramp to line up first. And then he ran off the ramp, the glider flew away and he didn't. And then we got sued.
I ask because I've seen what's happened in the past. Things we post in public forums can have consequences, and I'm trying to give you some context so you understand what's at stake. Please consider that when posting.
...are scared totally SHITLESS by ideas and talk. Bob's ideas and talk about u$hPa's corruption and negligence cost them millions of dollars and they retaliated by expelling him and pretty much ending his hang and para gliding careers.2015/03/31 16:46:36 UTC - 3 thumbs up - HangDiver
Find yourself a country that thinks ideas and talk are cheap. Governments get toppled and protesters, reformers, reporters get assassinated in any patch of turf on the planet you wanna name - including the ones here in the US. NOTHING ever starts happening without the sparks of ideas and talk. Pearl Harbor, the Normandy Invasion, Hiroshima come to mind.Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
and those three consonants and the one vowel and punctuation mark would've had an astronomical effect on hang gliding history.Stop!
A halfway intelligent ten year old kid would know to a dead certainty that he could improve on the status quo - IF the status quo would permit him to.If someone thinks they can improve on the status quo, make a product with good documentation and sell it, get it into peoples hands, if it's a notable improvement then it will be adopted and/or influence other designs.
Or any single component of a towing system. You don't have the expertise to use hose clamps to mount a brake lever within easy reach onto a control tube instead of velcro so THIS:I don't have the expertise to build a towing system...
No, but you have the flight experience to spew your ideas and talk around enough to make statements like:...nor do I have the flight experience to be a test pilot.
which anybody who's done the slightest degree of homework on this sport knows is absolute bullshit.If someone thinks they can improve on the status quo, make a product with good documentation and sell it, get it into peoples hands, if it's a notable improvement then it will be adopted and/or influence other designs.
Where'd ya get your AT training and certification?Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
What we have covered in this article is practical information and knowledge gleaned from the real world of aerotowing, developed over decades and hundreds of thousands of tows by experts in the field. This information has practical external validity. Hopefully, someone will develop methods and technology that work better than what we are using as standard practice today. Like the methods and technology used today, it is unlikely that the new technology will be dictated onto us as a de jure standard. Rather, to become a de facto standard, that new technology will need to be made available in the marketplace, proven in the real world, and then embraced by our sport.
Like:Which is why I only listed products, made for the purpose, that actually exist in this thread.
...because it was too SHODDY.Davis Straub - 2005/01/11
This type of release mechanism has been banned (at least for a short while) from the Worlds at Hay.
