2016/04/03 Tres Pinos fatality

[Tad Eareckson]

http://old.ushpa.aero/award_recipients.pdf

USHPA Awards - 2015/10

1992 - NAA Safety
- Pat Denevan
2001 - Hang Gliding Instructor of the Year
- Pat Denevan

[<BS>]

But still can't be named. I think we're forging ahead on the all time world record of information suppression on this one. Day 5 now and we still don't even have a name.

Many differences I'll concede, but this may be the record holder on some level. Of course that assumes none were missed.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=372276#372276

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Mark G. Forbes - 2016/04/06 16:41:47 UTC

There was a fatal crash on Sunday at the training site in Tres Pinos, near Hollister. The H1-rated pilot apparently turned away from the line, locked out and failed to release. An investigation is under way to review the facts and produce an accident report.

Please be careful out there. We have lost four pilots already this year; a towing accident in Florida, a mid-air at McClure, a speed wing at Jungfrau in Switzerland and now this training accident.

How is it "APPARENT" that the H1-rated "pilot" turned away from the line? If a hundred pound sack of potatoes had been suspended from the hang strap and the glider turned away from the line and locked out would you say that "The H0-rated sack of potatoes apparently turned away from the line, locked out and failed to release."? What's the evidence that she just hadn't been trained to correct a turn initiated by the tuning of the glider and/or a little air movement?

http://www.ushpa.org/page/ratings-and-skills-introduction
Ratings and skills introduction

H-1/P-1 Beginner Pilot

This rating identifies a student who has demonstrated the basic ability to fly in a straight line. The beginner pilot is not yet ready to go out flying independently, but can take off, fly straight and land. She also understands the basics of glider setup and breakdown.

She was only supposed to have the basic ability to fly in a straight line. So who was it who taught her to turn but failed to teach her not to turn away from the line?

When the rest of us are on tow we're almost constantly making small adjustments to stay centered. And you're saying that the best evidence that has been reported to you is that she DELIBERATELY turned away from the tow. And you've just told us that a "pilot" who wasn't qualified and rated to make and control turns was put on tow with enough power and/or altitude to be in a situation which DEMANDED Hang Two turning skills and control. Please explain to me how this was any less a case of negligent homicide than John Orders' not doing a hook-in check just prior to running off the ramp with Lenami Godinez-Avila at his side with her carabiner dangling.

The H1-rated pilot apparently turned away from the line...

We recognize this for the bald faced lie that it is. Currently sixty posts subsequent to this one and there's not a hint of one individual - even including the rabid Denevan zombies like gluesniffer and Lin - has given any indication of giving it any credence whatsoever. But AT BEST that statement is NAKED SPECULATION - with about the same degree of credibility of a hypothesis that extraterrestrial powers were involved in the disappearance of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH370. And by presenting it as speculation you've ruled out the option of an honest explanation - which could only be that this student was put in way over her head - and given us yet another chunk of data regarding your character and credibility.

If she had DELIBERATELY turned away from the line - as you suggest - the only rational explanation for her action would have been aircraft assisted suicide. And if that were the case she wouldn't have "FAILED to release". She'd have DELIBERATELY *NOT* released and that would be consistent with her decision to turn away from the line. But what the hell, maybe she had a last second change of heart and WANTED to release but FAILED to.

Furthermore...

Why say "The H1-rated pilot apparently turned away from the line, locked out..."? If she deliberately turned away from the line how is it possible for her to do anything OTHER than lock out? Why not just say she deliberately locked out? That's like saying "She deliberately ran off the cliff, fell towards the ground and failed to deploy her parachute." Why not just give us an honest non-bullshit statement like "The glider locked out and slammed in still on tow."?

That SHE APPARENTLY TURNED away from the line and FAILED to release are BOTH nakedly speculative statements. We all know goddam well that she had zero option of going for her easily reachable release - that she instinctively knew that her best chance of survival was to try to fight the turn and an attempt at making the easy reach would only have accelerated the lockout.

The NON speculative information you've given us is that there was a fatal Hang One lockout crash on Sunday at the training site in Tres Pinos, near Hollister - and we pretty much knew all that before your post. So why haven't you given us other totally non speculative information like:
- her name
- puller's name
- time of day
- flying conditions
- glider
- towing "equipment"
- Infallible Weak Link strength
- approximate altitude at which the shit started hitting the fan
- lockout direction
- actual NATURE of the fatal injuries she suffered (Bet she'd borrowed Pat's chest crusher release for that hop.)

An investigation is under way to review the facts and produce an accident report.

Yep... Review the "facts", adjust them as necessary to make her death as consistent as possible with the terms of the waiver, totally exonerate Mission Soaring Center.

Please be careful out there.

Why post that in conjunction with this announcement? What does CARELESSNESS have to do with an incident in which a student pilot deliberately turns away from the line, locks out, fails to release, and slams in? One might admonish a Stan Albright for carelessness in not clearing a turn (not that he would need to be admonished after the fact or would benefit from it in any way) but how could it possibly be relevant here? If I throw a new One off the ramp at McConnellsburg in twenty plus winds and he winds up in the trees behind the ridge does it help him if I tell him to be more CAREFUL after I extract him?

How can your saying:

Please be careful out there.

be interpreted as anything other than a slip indicting Mission for its massive negligence in putting this Hang One baby in way the fuck over her head and killing her? And that's also a slip acknowledging that your statement that we each agree that we are personally and individually responsible for our own safety, that if we have an accident and get hurt it is solely our own fault is a total load o' crap.

Not much fun riding a Ponzi scheme of one's making during its collapse phase, is it Mark? All those corners into which one's inevitably painted one's self over the years. You should probably get together with Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney and form the nucleus of a support group.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/08 08:24:38 UTC

If the ushpa is basing it's opinion on Pat and Region 2? Then the ushpa is just as liable and ignorant as Pat and his EGO.

u$hPa isn't IGNORANT. They know EXACTLY what's going on and what they're gonna do in response.

Dave Pendzick - 2016/04/08 14:52:24 UTC

Which insurance policy is going to cover the legal costs of this accident?

The one that will be funded by the membership.

Ryan Voight - 2016/04/08 17:54:40 UTC

Our current (the "old" policy, not the new one via the RRG) will remain in effect through June 1st I believe.

But that's of little consequence... because the premium USHPA will pay for insurance from the RRG is based on several years of actuarial history... so if a suit were to come from this (and I'll point out we have no details, and no idea if a suit would have any legal merit whatsoever), it almost doesn't matter which insurance it would it... it's all bad for all of us and the sport as a whole, should it come to that...

And here everyone was thinking that T** at K*** S****** was the problem most in need of being dealt with.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 04:08:26 UTC

Here's what I do know from a student pilot on the scene.

She was in her 40's. Both arms looked fractured. Unconscious and gurgling all the way up to the emergency units took her away. This would also indicate head trauma.

This makes no sense whatsoever. Your arms only get broken when you're flying upright on the control tubes. And if you're flying upright on the control tubes you can't sustain any head trauma 'cause you hit feet first and break your legs. So pick one, dude - arms or head. You can't have both.

The facts as to why she had such a hard impact with speed? Are still unknown?

My guess is she was going too fast when she hit. But that's just speculation.

If she was on the tow system to PROVE herself. It's in my opinion that she was not ready for such a test!

But Mission was teaching her. So theirs is the only opinion that matters.

There are proven methods that PREPARE students for new phases in their flying.

Ones with extremely looooong track records.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 04:22:46 UTC

As instructors we have to watch very closely to see that students are developing consistency, control, and true confidence. We also have to instill the best techniques and habits that will make flying much easier and safer.

And those will make up for total crap equipment. 74 posts in this thread as I'm writing, plus another preliminary misplaced four at:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

No discussion about the facts that the:
- primary easily reachable two-string release
- Birrenator
- weak link
- hook knife
- dumb lever
were of zero use in mitigating the severity of the results of this Hang One training exercise.

We must watch carefully that students are applying techniques that prevent them from locking out! Mentally and physically.

'Cause in the total absence of useable and functional equipment technique is about all ya got going for ya. By the way...

NMERider - 2016/04/06 21:11:00 UTC

I just fired off a letter to Peter Birren for his input on the utility of the Link Knife in this situation.

So what did Peter have to say about this one?

http://www.ushpa.org/legacy/award_recipients.pdf

USHPA Awards - 2015/10

1992 - NAA Safety
- Pat Denevan
2001 - Hang Gliding Instructor of the Year
- Pat Denevan
2005 - NAA Safety
- Peter Birren
2008 - Commendation
- Peter Birren

Toldyaso.

Paul Hurless - 2016/04/09 04:28:45 UTC

This is just useless speculation on your part.

It's more useful than the total silence we're getting from Mission, u$hPa, and the mainstream news media.

You've had a issue with Pat for many years and it looks like you will use any excuse you can to find fault with him and his business even when you state that you don't have the facts.

Yeah Richard! When it's so blindingly obvious that Pat's continuing to do the totally stellar job he always has. Used state-of-the-art equipment until he almost killed a student with it and then IMMEDIATELY swapped it out for even safer equipment - the stuff that just killed this student.

2016/04/10 01:19:07 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Lin Lyons

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 04:34:21 UTC

Which part is speculation on my part Paul?

Speculation is saying anything about a crash before u$hPa publishes its accident report and after that saying anything that isn't in the accident report.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 04:43:04 UTC

As far as me looking for excuses? I'm addressing this situation, cause now it has gone too far.

It hadn't gone too far with Lin 'cause he got his parachute open with several seconds to go before impact?

Paul Hurless - 2016/04/09 04:46:27 UTC

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 04:08:26 UTC

The facts as to why she had such a hard impact with speed? Are still unknown?

If she was on the tow system to PROVE herself. It's in my opinion that she was not ready for such a test!

There's your speculation.

No Paul. THIS:

speculation - the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence

is speculation. Richard's presenting a hypothetical situation and clearly identifying it as such. So go fuck yourself. Or you and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney can go fuck each other.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 04:53:46 UTC

As far as facts about this incident! Only Pat or associate can give all of the details!

Day Seven now.

I called around looking for details. Called some longtime friends and instructors who work for pat. As of now...still radio silence. My biggest worry was it could have been someone I or some other instructors who met or worked with her.

Still have no clue who the young lady was?

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 04:55:10 UTC

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 04:08:26 UTC

If she was on the tow system to PROVE herself. It's in my opinion that she was not ready for such a test!

I should have put a ? mark after "herself."

Yeah. Doing that would've made it an intelligible sentence. You definitely need to use more question marks.

And if she was on the tow system to prove herself? I'm stating a fact when I say we can prepare students better! To avoid this completely avoidable situation!

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 05:07:17 UTC

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 04:53:46 UTC

As far as facts about this incident! Only Pat or associate can give all of the details!

I called around looking for details. Called some longtime friends and instructors who work for pat. As of now...still radio silence. My biggest worry was it could have been someone I or some other instructors who met or worked with her.

Still have no clue who the young lady was?

Thank you, Richard. Missed that the first time.

Paul Hurless - 2016/04/09 05:23:19 UTC

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 04:55:10 UTC

And if she was on the tow system to prove herself?

That statement is pure speculation.

And your statements are just about all pure unadulterated bullshit.

What basis do you have for even suggesting that's why she was towing?

He didn't suggest that's why she was towing. He presented it as a hypothetical. What basis do you have for attacking him? What misleading and dangerous paths are people being led down as a consequence of his posts?

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 05:38:58 UTC

It would be speculation if I were to say..."She was towing to prove herself!"

No, it would be speculation if you were to say, "All evidence we have to date is that Mission products go up on easily reachable two-string releases with Birrenator pitch and lockout protectors. So it's a no brainer that she was on an easily reachable two-string release with Birrenator pitch and lockout protector."

Saying "She was towing to prove herself!" without even knowing who she was would be a total fabrication and easily recognized as such. (Nice job on the grammar though.)

The real question should be. Was she ready and truly prepared for a complex training system?

What if we increased the complexity of the training system with a dolly and a Tad Eareckson Goldberg/Robinson release system? How much worse off do you think she'd have ended up?

What steps or methods were used to completely prepare her for this next phase of training.

I dunno... Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt uses a similar system to put up students who've first shown up half an hour ago and has had tens of thousands of pulls without significant incident. A four-year-old can kill himself by running a bike with training wheels down a steep hill and into a parked car. Doesn't a lot depend on how the equipment is used?

To say she was a qualified hg1 is also a matter of speculation.

Who said she was a qualified One? All we know is that she was signed off on a One almost certainly by the same people who put her in over her head with total shit equipment and killed her.

If you have spent any time teaching Paul.

Any time anyone spent trying to teach Paul anything would've been better spent trying to teach a pig to sing or fly.

You would see a vast difference in what some may consider a quality hg1.

Even a quality One isn't supposed to be able to do more than make minor roll corrections to keep the glider going straight. That's not enough to be good for a tow with enough energy to allow a situation like hers to develop.

A school that uses methods that allow only the strongest and fittest to excel.

If strength and fitness were big fuckin' deals in hang gliding we'd be doing great safety wise. None of these fatalities are occurring 'cause people lack the muscle and speed to make the glider do what they want it to.

Will always have incidents like this one.

Assuming US hang gliding survives - yes.

And the ones who do survive and excel will be loyal representatives. As opposed to those who wash out and feel humiliated.

Or blow the whistle and are permanently excommunicated.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 06:02:02 UTC

Mark G. Forbes - 2016/04/06 16:41:47 UTC

There was a fatal crash on Sunday at the training site in Tres Pinos, near Hollister. The H1-rated pilot apparently turned away from the line, locked out and failed to release. An investigation is under way to review the facts and produce an accident report.

Please be careful out there. We have lost four pilots already this year; a towing accident in Florida, a mid-air at McClure, a speed wing at Jungfrau in Switzerland and now this training accident.

Judging by this information. It sounds like it was all and completely student pilot error!

She turned away from the tow line.

She locked out.

She failed to release.

See Mark? EXACTLY what I was saying on my previous post a bit over nine and a half hours before his. Even marginally literate Richard here is totally seeing through this crap you've been mostly getting away with for decades. This Ponzi scheme started crumbling with Zack Marzec, got a devastating hit with Arys Moorhead, and is going into major freefall mode with this Mission bullshit. And you're also paying and will be paying a price for that travesty you pulled on Bob Kuczewski.

Will there be an investigation on the methods used by the school?

Yeah. They'll find them to be extremely TYPICAL when they REVIEW the FACTS Pat feeds them.

Will the investigators be experienced instructors or agents of the ushpa?

They're not mutually exclusive, dude. Since the beginning of time it's always been the instructors responsible for student deaths publishing the official findings. Who better? They were THERE and most familiar with the students and their skills and capabilities.

Will the investigators come to a conclusion that everything possible was implemented to avoid this?

You've just quoted the Cliff Notes version of the final report on this one. The H1-rated pilot apparently turned away from the line, locked out and failed to release. Suffered fatal injuries. Shit happens. Recommendation: Let's be careful out there!

(Now ya know what Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney felt like when Team Kite Strings was ripping him a new asshole three years ago, Mark.)

Will the investigators come to the conclusion that there is no need for improvement with this operation?

Less complacency, more focus and risk awareness and management.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 06:54:45 UTC

To imply it was an ACCIDENT is speculation in itself.

No. It's a LIE.

Allowing room for NO accountability.

What? He didn't blame the student enough? She's dead. How much more accountable do we need to hold her? In my opinion it would be way overkill if we further humiliated her by naming her.

Is there another word other than accident that we should start using?

How 'bout two? Negligent homicide.

I can understand if something happens once and the problem is addressed and fixed.

I can't. We've known what the problems were since the beginning of time. The fuckin' Wright Brothers figured out what all the problems were and had them addressed and fixed before the end of 1903. There never have been any lessons to be learned from any of this crap. This situations only result from incompetence and willful negligence.

When it occurs more than once...Then we have a habit in the making.

When it happens even ONCE heads should roll at multiple levels. Mark's told you in fuckin' black and white that u$hPa...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27736
Increase in our USHpA dues

Mark G. Forbes - 2012/12/20 06:21:33 UTC

We're re-working the accident reporting system, but again it's a matter of getting the reports submitted and having a volunteer willing to do the detail work necessary to get them posted. There are also numerous legal issues associated with accident reports, which we're still wrestling with. It's a trade-off between informing our members so they can avoid those kinds of accidents in the future, and exposing ourselves to even more lawsuits by giving plaintiff's attorneys more ammunition to shoot at us.

Imagine a report that concludes, "If we'd had a procedure "x" in place, then it would have probably prevented this accident. And we're going to put that procedure in place at the next BOD meeting." Good info, and what we want to be able to convey. But what comes out at trial is, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client suffered injury because USHPA knew or should have known that a safety procedure was not in place, and was therefore negligent and at fault." We're constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention.

...WILL kill every attempt to get things on track that it can get its sleazy lawyer hands on. Last Sunday was just another inevitable consequence of handing control of this sport to a pigfucker corporate attorney.

Or a lack of ability to change and or improve. Or even see a need for improvement?

When something like this happens. It reflects on all of us as a community.

Yep. Not T** at K*** S****** though. The community decided he wasn't good enough to be included seven years ago. What ever reflects poorly on you guys reflects really well on the people in Tad's Hole In The Ground.

What else will it take for the community to say! ENOUGH!

2016 is u$hPa's 1917. This is revolution we're seeing. The bad news is that ultimately it won't change anything for the better... But it will be fun watching all the blood-flow during the transition.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Dave Pendzick - 2016/04/09 14:56:56 UTC

No H1/student...

Not an H1 STUDENT. A student is what Arys Moorhead...



...was. This was an H1-rated PILOT. A STUDENT might have just been turned away from the line and not have been able to correct. The PILOT apparently employed her roll control skills to do something inexplicably clueless - despite the excellent training she'd received from this highly respected training facility. Do try to stick to the official narrative.

...should die in any aspect of the training.

Twos...



Shit happens.

There is just no excuse for this.

You're SPECULATING there was no excuse for this. How do you know it wasn't an invisible dust devil like the ones that killed Zack Marzec and Joe Julik? Something that would've killed any one of us in the same situation and was just one of the unavoidable risks that our Accident Review Committee Chairman tells is part of our attraction to the sport? I sure know I, for one, got an urge to strap the glider on the car I could barely suppress upon reading about this one.

In this case, whether or not the situation was completely out of the instructors ability to intervene is of no relevance.

Funny Mark said nothing about what the "instructor" was doing with the power while the H1-rated pilot was busy apparently turning away from the line, locking out, and failing to release, dontchya think? Why should it have mattered whether or not the H1-rated pilot failed to release after she decided to turn away from the line? Why wasn't the rope slack?

The question then is why was an H1 put in a situation in which the instructor was not able to intervene?

'Cause most of the time they get away with it. Same way most of the time Rafi Lavin got away without doing a stomp test before running off the cliff.

I am not an instructor...

And you weren't there. So you're just speculating. So why don't you just shut the fuck up? Or are deliberately trying to arouse Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's anger? Something that none of us ever wants to do.

...nor do I profess to know verbatim the subtleties of the USHPA syllabus....

Got a link to u$hPa's syllabus so's we muppets can try to get a handle on some of its subtleties?

...regardless, this accident should not have happened ever.

Pity it didn't happen when Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney was coming up through the ranks. What a waste of a really nasty lockout crash.

2016/04/09 16:31:46 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Michael Grisham
2016/04/09 17:52:28 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider
2016/04/09 17:46:13 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Mark Webber
2016/04/09 17:57:29 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Brad Barkley

You got major problems, Mark. You're getting a whole lotta people I despise saying the same things I'm saying and have been saying for years and not being silenced by you and your tools. You were able to keep people in line after Jean Lake last year in no small part because Kelly had the good sense to die along with the baby he killed and you were able to keep a lid on the identity of the driver. This one's a bridge too far. And you pushed the envelope a wee bit too much dumping all the responsibility on the H1-rated pilot - 'specially since he wasn't a Two or even a he.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 04:08:26 UTC

Here's what I do know from a student pilot on the scene.

She was in her 40's. Both arms looked fractured. Unconscious and gurgling all the way up to the emergency units took her away. This would also indicate head trauma.

That is NOT a pretty picture. And people are NOT gonna be very sympathetic to the cover-up machinations this time either.
Good luck either coming back into Jack's Living Room trying to run damage control or trying to disappear from the conversation.
Ridgely's ancient history already and I'm not seeing a real bright future for this major student factory either.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Davis Straub - 2016/04/09 16:28:40 UTC

Beginning students on ground based tow should not have to release to keep from hurting themselves.

Plus they should get used to the idea of...




...not BEING ABLE to release to keep from hurting themselves.

2016/04/09 16:32:06 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Michael Grisham
2016/04/09 17:52:16 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider
2016/04/09 17:47:00 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Mark Webber
2016/04/10 18:04:54 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Rick Maddy
2016/04/09 17:57:47 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Brad Barkley

Diev Hart - 2016/04/09 19:07:10 UTC

Wow...again..geewiz....PLEASE STOP PUTTING NEW STUDENTS ON YOUR TOW SYSTEM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....SO WRONG in so many ways...

So where was the outrage for Tomas Banevicius? And is it OK for Quest to keep putting people up on the same tow system they used to kill a tandem aerotow instructor three plus years ago?

And thank you guys for speaking g up....

I didn't get to speak k up over there.

...this has got to stop....MSC please look at this from another angle if you still justify it somehow....:- (
PLEASE
Diev

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14663
Aerotow Incident

Diev Hart - 2009/12/02 06:45:13 UTC

I'm Tad...
..."well now if you had my mouth release this would have never even been an issue"...
The same goes for the finger string on the basetube release for that matter...
good job in getting the gear out and down...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction

Diev Hart - 2011/07/14 17:19:12 UTC

I have had issues with them releasing under load. So I don't try to release it under a lot of load now.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25527
Mouth AT Releases

Diev Hart - 2012/03/06 01:06:39 UTC

Right there (I think) is the main issue...some pilots think they can fix a bad thing and don't want to start over.

Diev Hart - 2012/03/13 16:52:53

I want a remote barrel, that looks simple enough...how much?

(I learned from Pat and his instructors back in 92....but this is just wrong and I would NEVER send a potential student to (try to) learn like that with that school)...does this tell you anything?
R.I.P. poor thing

You too got plenty of blood on your hands from this one, Diev.

Davis Straub - 2016/04/09 23:27:16 UTC

You are referring to a particular tow system, I assume.

Why don't you tell us what you're HAPPY WITH nowadays, Davis. And WHY.

Jim Rowan - 2016/04/10 00:36:24 UTC

My condolences to the pilot's family and friends. May your memories of her bring you some solace and peace.

Yeah Jim. That's what their memories are gonna bring them.

I realize there's always going to be speculation about these type of events and a lot of hand-wringing until/unless there's more definitive information provided.

Suck my dick, Jim.

Having said that, as someone who has spent their career in the claims portion of the P&C insurance industry, I would suggest some of these posts are a plaintiff attorney's wet dream.

Good. I'll redouble my efforts to amplify them over here.

I would suggest folks stop speculating and drawing conclusions without more knowledge of the facts.

Spoken like the true insidious little worm you are, have always been, and always will be.

2016/04/10 05:07:15 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Dave Jacob

You can suck my dick too, Dave.

Dave Pendzick - 2016/04/10 01:37:32 UTC

The plaintiff attorneys "wet dream" was the fact that a beginner hang gliding student died in training, not what a bunch of windbags are squawking about on the internet. If there is a lawsuit, the lawyers have everything they need to take the house on this one, forum gossip is of no relevance.

But that's no reason to ease up.

You tell people not to speculate or jump to conclusions, OK lets look at the facts.

H1=DEAD IN TRAINING.

How it happened really is of no relevance, the point is IT SHOULD HAVE NEVER HAPPENED! The lawyers don't need to pour over HG.org posts to figure that out.

Hey plaintiffs' attorneys... You know where to find me if you need any help on this one. I know where damn near all the skeletons are hidden.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

AdamG - 2016/04/10 15:37:46 UTC
Joined: 2016/04/08
Posts: 1
Location: Bay Area

I was there- im a hang 2 student that was towing that day. I saw Nancy's gliders final impact with the ground and I saw her condition afterward. (I'm not the student referred to earlier in this post). It was a tragic situation.

Pat sent us all an email last night about the incident and So maybe you'll get the accident report soon. There were 2 or perhaps three of us in the area besides pat who were in a position to see anything about what was happening. I don't think any of us will be saying anything more about the incident until if and when it's time to give testimony to the proper authorities. Ushpa hasn't contacted me and I'm not sure they will.

I was there- im a hang 2 student...

With a literacy proficiency that'll help you fit right in on The Jack Show.

...that was towing that day. I saw Nancy's...

We've finaly got something in the way of a name.

...gliders final impact...

How many preliminary impacts were there?

...with the ground...

More information. The ground appears to have been an issue here.

...and I saw her condition afterward.

How was she doing? Ready to get back on that horse and finish her package?

(I'm not the student referred to earlier in this post). It was a tragic situation.

What is it now?

Pat sent us all an email last night about the incident and So maybe you'll get the accident report soon.

Who's accident report? Has Mitch finished reviewing Pat's facts yet?

There were 2 or perhaps three of us in the area besides pat who were in a position to see anything about what was happening.

So Pat was very likely the driver. And it's hard to imagine that anyone was anywhere on the ground or in the air overhead who wasn't in a position to see something of what was happening.

I don't think any of us will be saying anything more about the incident until if and when it's time to give testimony to the proper authorities.

1. So I guess Pat's email wasn't a request to please immediately state publicly all you can recall about the incident so that people will understand that, as Mark has already indicated, the H1-rated pilot deliberately turned away from the line, locked out, and failed to release and help prove that he was entirely blameless.

2. Who's a proper authority?
- Pat was the best authority on the planet with his system and we all know how that worked out.
- Mitch Shipley? u$hPa's top damage control guy?
- The local police who apparently - judging by all the press reports we've had to date - did NOTHING?
- The FAA who walked back out the moment they realized there was no tail number?

Lemme tell ya sumpin', motherfucker. If a proper authority actually EXISTED your testimony would've been taken already. PROPER authorities don't wait until everyone's had the chance to get his story straight.

Ushpa hasn't contacted me and I'm not sure they will.

1. I'm pretty sure they WON'T. If they were attempting to get legitimate information on this one they'd have contacted you IMMEDIATELY to get every detail still fresh in your memory. Recall the way Mitch didn't bother getting any statements from the members of Arys Moorhead's family who saw every second of what happened in the air and would have had an awareness of what was going on with the driver.

2. So what's stopped you from contacting u$hPa?

So Adam... What makes you so sure it's a great idea to get into a flavor of aviation in which the behavior Pat and you are exhibiting is Standard Operating Procedure?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Janica Lee - 2016/04/10 16:10:11 UTC

Ushpa hasn't contacted me and I'm not sure they will.

That's disturbing. Fresh 1st-hand eye witnesses accounts and recollections are invaluable.

Exactly. The LAST thing these motherfuckers want is solid, unambiguous information on these things.

Doesn't USHPA's hg accident investigator (also a static tow system inventor) live in the Bay Area now?

We call that a STATIONARY system. Static is used to refer to fixed line length.

A week has already passed...

Almost.

Davis Straub - 2016/04/10 16:27:27 UTC

He is not a static line system inventor and yes Mitch is currently in the Bay Area and I'm sure that he will as always do a very thorough investigation.

So's he and u$hPa can figure out how to best obscure all the fundamental issues.

Janica Lee - 2016/04/10 16:30:02 UTC

http://elektratowsystems.com/

Yeah. Too bad Nancy hadn't been trained how to foot land as well as she might've been.

NMERider - 2016/04/10 16:32:03 UTC

Yes. My guess is that he's already spoken and that everything else is a cover story due to the looming likelihood of a claim/litigation. When something like this happens, everyone in the sport of free-flight in the U.S. loses.

Everyone in the sport had already lost just by virtue of the fact that all these shit procedures and equipment components were being used.

This is why everyone needs to be vigilant and to ask questions and report reasonable concerns about unsafe conduct.

Right...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=463
Davis Straub's "Oz Report" Conflict of Interest

Bob Kuczewski - 2011/02/12 07:56:36 UTC

Without naming names (I'm curious to see if they'll own up to it first), on May 10, 2009, one Director wrote:

We need to consider getting an injunction against this guy communicating with the FAA on this subject.

That same day, another Director responded:

I forwarded the letter to Tim Herr yesterday asking about this.

For those who don't know, Tim Herr is ... USHPA's lawyer!!

A third Director (who I'll call "Mr. X") chimed in that same day with this:

Perhaps a strongly worded letter from Tim will do the trick. We can't force Tad to work within the USHPA framework but we can make it unpleasant and expensive for him if he chooses to makes derogatory and false statements about USHPA to the FAA he can't back up.

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

Ditto dude.

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.

I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.

Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.

So, argue all you like.
I don't care.
I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.
I could be more political about it, but screw it... I'm not in the mood to put up with tender sensibilities... Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing. I've got thousands upon thousands of tows under my belt. I don't know everything, but I'll wager the house that I've got it sussed a bit better than an armchair warrior.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Sam Kellner - 2016/04/10 17:36:15 UTC

Elektratow design keeps static to a minimum
Heart felt condolences to the survivors.
RIP aeronaut

You got a lot of fuckin' gall posting on a tow fatality thread.

2016/04/11 04:26:40 UTC - Sink This! -- Rcpilot

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/10 18:17:29 UTC

Dave Pendzick - 2016/04/10 01:37:32 UTC

How it happened really is of no relevance, the point is IT SHOULD HAVE NEVER HAPPENED!

How it happened is important! I don't understand why you say it's not relevant?

The lead up to why we have a fatality with a hg1 is everything! The incident is the final outcome of a series of events/factors... that take place with any student from day 1.

The lead-up was decades long.

Meaning a thorough investigation will look at how any operation progresses a student from day 1.

Who said anything about a thorough investigation? u$hPa's investigation is only underway to review the facts and produce an accident report. Mark stated that in no uncertain terms when he initiated this thread.

This is why myself, Dan M, Rob E, Mike J, Eric H and others. Who have extensive experience with this operation are speaking up!

It would not surprise me if no consequence is issued by the ushpa.

It would surprise me if u$hPa didn't once again degrade their standards to enable this one to fall well within the typical range.

Erik Boehm - 2016/04/10 19:40:25 UTC

Both my brother and I trained at Tres Pinos, the instructors we had while there were good, but have moved on. Looking back, I never saw anything that stood out as dangerous... aside from gopher holes and the standard danger of terrain that wheels won't roll so well on all the time. I once saw someone break their arm...

It's physically impossible to see someONE break THEIR arm.

...but I've seen that happen to other instructors as well, some of which post on these forums.
The broken arm incident was not really foreseable...

Really?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

I'm always a bit surprised when a foot lander DOESN'T break an arm.

...no weather contributed to it (I've seen a broken arm at Ed Levin that the wind, while not unreasonably strong or variable, could have made things worse), the person wasn't performing poorly but being allowed to advance to higher hills before correction (she was launching from the smaller training hill)... it was a straight level flight with a whack at the end in which she broke her arm.

1. What? She didn't break THEIR arm?
2. Why was she foot landing?

I didn't see anything about their training hill program while I was there that setoff any flags to me.

Watching people foot land...

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

...doesn't set off any flags to you?

The instructors are all different now though.

What? They didn't have smartass jerks like Karl Allmendinger back then?

Unlike my brother, I never did any towing with them... I went to Marina to get my H2, my brother on the other hand did some towing with them to work towards his H2.

Was he the total asshole he is today BEFORE graduating from Mission?

So... towing an H1 for the purposes of H2 training seems reasonable enough.

Yeah. I guess the problem was that Pat didn't make it clear that practicing turns was only something one did AFTER releasing.

I remember the step tow system being new and having "kinks" to work out when my brother was training (I was not present for the lessons, just heard them talk about it)...

Since when was this a STEP tow operation?

...but that was 15 years ago and a line breaking or equipment problem doesn't seem to be the case here.

1. Yeah. It's perfectly normal for one to fail to release before slamming in at the end of a lockout on state-of-the-art equipment.

2. How 'bout the Birrenator?

http://westcoastbrit.blogspot.com/2013/05/a-couple-of-weeks-ago-i-had-experience.html
Lock out on tow

Ome Ga - 2013/06/03 14:03

On his surface tow rig, Pat Denevan has us rig an automatic release. If you go too far out of line with the tow rope it releases automatically.

How come that didn't work? (Anything back from Peter yet, Jonathan?)

I'm also guessing that this wasn't a step tow system, but a scooter tow system that doesn't tow people nearly as high... but thats just a guess

It's a fuckin' WINCH tow. It's not a goddam scooter.

and now... I want to make a counterpoint to what I said above... but at this moment... I am afraid of the lawyers, and the RRG that was just capitalized... I don't want to have to kick in another $200 to keep this thing afloat...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=463
Davis Straub's "Oz Report" Conflict of Interest

Bob Kuczewski - 2011/02/12 07:56:36 UTC

A third Director (who I'll call "Mr. X") chimed in that same day with this:

Perhaps a strongly worded letter from Tim will do the trick. We can't force Tad to work within the USHPA framework but we can make it unpleasant and expensive for him if he chooses to makes derogatory and false statements about USHPA to the FAA he can't back up.

I really want to know how this happened... and in this day and age... somehow I think all things like this should be recorded.

On tiny little video cards that are really easy to swallow in the event something goes wrong.

Video of a flight can be a good teaching tool, and also very useful in accident analysis.

And super advertising for Mission and the state-of-the-art equipment they use. I'd kill to have the video of this Birrenator not working any better than the Rooney Link.

The question we're all asking (including the lawyers) is what could they have done to prevent this (and the additional lawyer question: *should they have known that they should have done something differently* ... ie was )

We couldn't do that because it wouldn't be typical and would have an unacceptably shooooort track record.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/10 19:58:06 UTC

Instruction has changed very much here in Region 2 Eric. We all knew back then and accepted that broken arms were inevitable on the training hill.

But we had to keep doing standups to be prepared for the inevitable day when one would be our only chance for survival when coming down in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place.

Today there are proven methods and approaches that eliminate the possibility of broken arms on the training hill.

She broke both arms.

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She was upright on the control tubes with her hands at shoulder or ear height where she couldn't control the glider...

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...from start to finish. Fuckin' Groundhog Day.

The irony and argument I have faced through the years is. "You want more rules and regulations!" This statement could not be further from the TRUTH!

Nah. Fuck that. Hang gliding is all about everybody doing whatever the fuck one feels like 'cause the Pilot In Command is totally responsible for whatever happens to him.

I am 100% in agreement with those (instructors) that believe we can improve the way we (instructors) prepare student pilots properly.

And let's train them on the crappiest gear using the crappiest procedures possible so's if they survive beyond their Twos there's nothing out there they won't be able to handle.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Erik Boehm - 2016/04/10 20:11:22 UTC

Instruction has changed very much here in Region 2 Eric...

Forgive me if I don't believe this. As the old saying goes, everytime you make something idiot proof, they invent a better idiot.

So let's not go nuts reinventing wheels when we have proven systems that work. We're just gonna end up with better idiots. These old sayings...

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

"It is infinitely better to have a weak link break too soon rather than too late."
-- Towing Proverb

...don't get to be old sayings fer nuthin', ya know.

I think it is naive to thing the possibility of a broken arm is "eliminate[d]" by these new methods.

Get fucked, Erik. Start this train wreck over. Have her dolly launching on tow from Day One, Flight One with a Street Release and rolling all her landings in and this WILL NOT HAPPEN.

Thats a lot of change to happen in just over 4 years, which is when I saw the last broken arm at Ed Levin

Get fucked.

And if she was on the tow system to prove herself?

To be fair, putting a question mark doesn't really make it not speculation.
With the question, you are introducing an idea based on speculation.
It reminds me of "fair and balanced" Faux news "just asking questions" ... like one question they had (as text at the bottom of their segment) "Democrats: Defeat and retreat?".

She had a USHPA H1 rating, that is not speculation. There is a different between ideas based on evidence(even if not 100% proven by the evidence), and speculation - which is not based on evidence.

Actual SPECULATION *ALWAYS* has a basis in available information.

Its not speculation to say she was "qualified" H1, its a resonable assumption derived from the fact that she has a H1.

I'd say there's no fuckin' way she was a QUALIFIED One. I'm not signing a One on somebody who isn't very consistent roll correcting appropriately and executing and returning from moderate turns. All Mission's working on is flare timing.

Its not speculation to say it was an accident.

It's total fiction to say it was an accident.

If it wasn't intentional, it was an accident.

Fuck that. It was a CRASH - not an accident. And it was totally preventable.

It can be an accident even if there was negligence.

Not by any definition under which we can afford to operate.

There is more than enough to conclude that they don't want outcomes like this, so its not speculation that its an accident unless you have contradictory evidence (ie evidence of foul play).

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34229
AT release

piano_man - 2016/04/01 15:16:53 UTC
Georgia

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/sets/72057594141352219/
Aerotow Release System

Can anyone tell me how and if this thing works?

Karl Allmendinger - 2016/04/02 03:47:53 UTC

Tad Eareckson or Heath Robinson?

I don't know what your basis is for saying they use "methods that allow only the strongest and fittest to excel". One might argue that the classic hill training does that, because its a lot of physical work, and that scooter tow allows for much less physically fit people to learn.

This wasn't scooter. This was a big bruiser winch used to get people to serious altitude fast and four thousand feet of line out to the pulley and another four thousand back to launch.

If by strong and fit you mean skill and competence... well, the skilled and highly competent are always going to excel more than those that aren't. Holding back those that lack the neccessary competence is exactly what one should do.
If they prove themself by trying as hard as possible to fly a technically flawless flight, its fine.
If you want to go from a shallow 40' hill to a steeper 70' hill, you don't prove you're ready bydoing dangerous stuff.

Like flying upright on the control tubes and executing stunt landings.

To go from a 70' to a 150' hill, you still "prove yourself" by being as safe as possible. Its not like you "prove" that your are ready to fly the 300' hill by banditoing the 600' hill...

Let's rewind the tape, throw her off the six hundred, and see how much worse she winds up.

So to me the speculative question about being on the tow to "prove herself" makes no sense to me.

But the shit that Pat was doing DOES.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/10 20:32:46 UTC

She had a USHPA H1 rating, that is not speculation.

This is a fact!

What comes to question in my mind is..."The quality of her performance as a hg1?
For simplicity sake. Was she a strong hg1 or weak?

Before or after she broke both arms and smashed her head?

Strong meaning her skill set was optimum!

On this topic alone. We are all aware of the differences in how students have been taught and measured to the hg1.

The mindset and standard of..."any landing you can walk away from is a good landing!" Is and has been a part of our history.

Also:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29884
Hat Creek Power Whack

Mike Bilyk - 2013/09/07 17:07:26 UTC

Wheel landings are for girls!

Too bad we didn't really take that to heart for this one.

A standard that diminishes and compromises a mindset and community.

As far as the instructor community is concerned. My point is that some may have different standards. When it comes to what defines a high quality hg1.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/10 21:21:16 UTC

Within the last 4 years since you witnessed a broken arm at Ed Levin. A core group of instructors have been working together and cooperating (as hard as it may be at times). We all share the same passion to preserve and progress students safely! I hope this is a trend that leads to better things in the future.

Wouldn't it have helped if you'd publicized what you were doing differently prior to last Sunday?

2016/04/10 21:25:43 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider

Dave Jacob - 2016/04/10 22:14:28 UTC
Fremont

Davis Straub - 2016/04/09 16:28:40 UTC

Beginning students on ground based tow should not have to release to keep from hurting themselves.

I had a minor incident towing some years ago when I tried static towing for the first time to demo a wing. There was a minor malfunction with the winch ending the tow early. I thought it would be best to release the tow line even if it was only driven by an abundance of caution. However, I neglected to do so because I was low to the ground and didn't want to let go of the control bar.

COULD have. Just didn't WANT to.

I was able to release to tow line easily enough when the flight went as planned.

Course you could. That's what Industry Standard equipment is designed for - working reasonably well when everything is going as planned. And being totally useless whenever anything unplanned enters the equation.

But when the situation became foreign, I was not able to easily summon on what I had newly learned.

Flying the glider with one hand...



...while making the easy reach with the other?

All this is to echo back on what Davis said.

The great Davis Dead-On Straub - who's been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.

At one point I believed weak links were supposed to protect us from bad things like this.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.

But if the weak link can hold on through a lock-out or hold out long enough to make the dive difficult to recover from, it clearly has limits to its usefulness.

Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.

So without trying to reinvent the wheel...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.

...I wanted to ask what methods other than cutting the tow line are out there for the instructor or winch operator to release the glider?

Since obviously there's no fuckin' way we can engineer anything...

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...that allows the PILOT to function as anything better than a dope on a rope.