http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016
Rock on! Steve Wendt. He's exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's so exceptionally knowledgeable that he signed off Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's instructor rating. You've gotta be exceptionally exceptionally knowledgeable to do something like that.
2016/04/11 23:15:20 UTC - thumbs up - rregier
flyhg1 - 2016/04/11 20:09:23 UTC
You can't ever know for sure how a person will react in an emergency situation until that person is faced with an actual emergency.
1. Yeah, that was the problem. Nancy didn't know how to react to the emergency situation of a Hang One training tow. I know those things make my blood run cold and I have a real hard time holding things together until I'm safely down and stopped.
2. Nah. No fuckin' way can you do emergency simulation exercises - the way the rest of the planet does when teaching people to react properly in emergency situations.
2016/04/11 20:29:14 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Paul Hurless
Go fuck yourself, Paul.
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/11 21:18:16 UTC
Is it fair to say that instructors can prepare and train students how to handle an emergency or potential lock out situation?
Sure. Everybody does that. They:
- take them up to altitude tandem and teach them how to roll out of violent turns flying with only the left hand on the left control tube.
- all teach you to put a loop of 130 pound test fishing line on a bridle end with the not hidden so it will meet with your expectation breaking as early as possible in lockout situations, but being strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks from turbulence.
To avoid a student from locking out on a training hill. Most instructors know how to introduce students to wind speeds and gusts gradually.
Of course nothing like that is possible in surface towing.
And it's not like you could train everybody prone at all times - starting them off on a trainer with Gregg Ludwig landing gear or a cart. It's really easy to have someone start by foot launching off a hill and staying upright but it would be nuts start with short glides off a dolly.
Tow line pressure, tension...
TENSION? In addition to tow line pressure? How would you transmit tension? A long hydraulic line?
...and speed is another story and added dynamic along with wind speeds/gusts.
Think Nancy had enough speed?
Takeo77 - 2016/04/11 21:37:31 UTC
Air France 447, Colgan Air 3407, Asiana 214, C-5 Galaxy 84-0059 come to mind.
A lot of this game is not getting into emergency situations you can't get back out of in one piece.
Dave Jacob - 2016/04/11 22:25:22 UTC
Looks like a sweet facility they have at Blue Sky.
Yeah. No nasty drop-offs until you get about ninety miles away. So when Steve's products run off ramps without being connected to their gliders and tandem passengers the connection back to Steve ain't all that strong.
I'm guessing you were wanting me to see the low towing.
You've gotta be extremely careful looking at anything Davis wants you to see.
But are they not H0's working on their H1's?
Yes.
MSC doesn't even let students on tow until they have their H1 from foot launching on the local hills and they start them towing low as well.
And we all know how well that worked out.
I don't know how long they do it for but I've seen that at their training site. At some point you need to pull the students higher though so a release becomes necessary.
You immediately start perfecting your flare timing so you'll be prepared to land in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place whenever you need to but separating from tow under normal sled conditions is a skill you don't start attempting until you're well on your way to a Two and have plenty of air below you. And we wonder why Nancy failed to release even with the prospect of a couple of broken arms an fatal head trauma seconds ahead of her.
But in agreeing with your original statement...
Keep agreeing with Davis's original statements. Hard to go wrong.
I think it would be best to share access to the release with the instructor.
Sure. Hell, why not just have the instructor up there with the student doing everything the student's supposed to be learning to do to stay alive on a hang glider? And with an easily reachable release and four hands available you'll have an extra one left over rather than needed. But don't worry... Only a hook-in check will give the student a false sense of security.
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/11 22:52:29 UTC
Help me out here guys! How does the mindset of a mass shooter compare to somebody wanting to learn how to fly a Hang glider?
It's The Jack Show. Get used to it.
And how are airbus crashes equal in comparison to hg crashes?
What's it matter how big the plane is? Don't they all crash and kill people mostly for the same reasons? Power failure, stalls, blown launches and landings?
If your saying or making the point that people screw up!
As instructors...we should know this simple fact. And do everything to guard ourselves against this reality! And teach....Teach in a way that allows student pilots or pilots in general. To expand their comfort zone and skill set.
Do you ever teach them to land like REAL aircraft and not tolerate total shit typical towing equipment?
In flyhg1 comment. He says FACED with an emergency. We can argue if hg pilots/students choose or are put in emergency situations.
Isn't somebody who tows up with an easily reachable release, Infallible Weak Link, and/or pro toad bridle choosing to put himself in an emergency situation that begins when the glider starts moving forward?
once&future - 2016/04/11 23:10:21 UTC
I always felt that was one of the good arguments for the old-style slow-march-up-the-training-hill style of instruction. It would tend to generate the occasional "micro-emergency", like getting popped up or turned a bit in a little gust, and the instructor could see if the student focused or froze - but at an altitude where the latter wouldn't be a fatal mistake.
I would like to think that by the time I would throw my pre-H2's off the big hill I had at least an inkling that they could respond proactively to unexpected stressful events in flight. I would hope that any training program would provide similar opportunities for the instructor to evaluate the emergency response of their students early in their training.
Name a training program that doesn't treat every landing as an emergency ditch in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place.
2016/04/11 23:13:05 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Richard Palmon
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/11 23:24:20 UTC
Thank You once&future! For you to put it so plain and simple is a breath of fresh air!
For those that know me? It's fine if you have your opinions or judgements of me?
Yours Truly!
Old Wind Bag
p.s. I would also like to add. That a solid, clear and concise training program. Should not force some students into purchasing 15 le$$ons to acquire a high quality hg1?
Should pilots be forced to buy tandem lessons in order to get AT signoffs?
Takeo77 - 2016/04/11 23:44:45 UTC
flyhg1 - 2016/04/11 20:09:23 UTC
You can't ever know for sure how a person will react in an emergency situation until that person is faced with an actual emergency.
That was exactly my point. I am not saying there shouldn't be a thorough examination of the situation, changes to training implemented, and even technological fixes, but the fact is people screw up in real life very badly, regardless of their level of training or the situation involved, and as others have said just when you think you have all the problems nailed down someone will figure out some new way to kill themselves.
Name some new ways people are killing themselves.
I've almost been in a locked out (mental, not physical) situation and the only thing that saved me was the training I got in the military that said, in essence "if you panic, you die", the decision point vs taking this action or that was so blurred it could have gone either way... it's a situation no instructor can consistently foresee (and if you can, then you're awarded the immediate rank of jedi master).
In the military you can find yourself in a position in which no matter what you do you can or will die.
In addition to all of the technique-based training, and technological fixes...
Tell me about the technological fixes Pat had implemented prior to putting Nancy up. If he could turn the clock back on the condition that he had to launch her again would he have used the same equipment?
...perhaps there needs to be some self examination of the underlying psychology of these kinds of accidents...
Bullshit. He put a student in way the fuck over her head on total crap equipment and she bought it.
...for me personally, dealing with emotional and mental states are far more difficult problems (and rarely addressed by the myriad of instructors I have been exposed to) than simply handling the glider.
So you think the problem was that Nancy had some emotional and mental issues going on that prevented her from functioning as she had been extensively trained to? Maybe had an issue with a boyfriend going on that interfered with her concentration on the task at hand?
2016/04/12 01:33:52 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jim Rowan
2016/04/12 03:16:25 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Glenn Zapien
Figures.
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/11 23:53:55 UTC
And improvements we will make!
When should we start holding our breath? You obviously haven't made any improvements up to this point, you didn't do shit after Lin Lyons, Jean Lake, or any of the myriad of other recent bloodbath disasters. Why should we expect you to start doing something now?
As we work together into the future.
So you still think this sport has a future?
As instructors!
1. Since we totally suck as engineers!
2. Let's say you hang gliding DOES have a future and you DO work together to revolutionize instruction and safety SOPs. What do you think the chances are that u$hPa will incorporate and other operations will adopt them? Cite some prior examples from the past three dozen years.
It is tough to manage a calm, cool and truly confident environment.
Wanna see a calm, cool, and truly confident environment?
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7597/16975005972_c450d2cdda_o.png
Do you have some reason to believe that Tres Pinos wasn't an equally calm, cool, and truly confident environment fifteen seconds before Nancy slammed in? It's a no fuckin' brainer that Nancy was killed BECAUSE the environment was calm, cool, and truly confident when it should have been anything but. Ditto for all the other recent fatalities.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13132
Unhooked Death Again - Change our Methods Now?
Quinn Cornwell - 2009/01/24 19:57:03 UTC
No, don't think about the jagged boulders. That'll mess with your head. Don't ever tell pilots to think about "Oh, if you screw this up, you'll crash and burn into those jagged rocks down there, so make sure you don't screw this up." This sort of psychology is detrimental. It's good to be conscience of the dangers in hang gliding, pointing this out right before you start running is just plain stupid.
Nobody ever slammed gliderless into the jagged rocks below launch after considering the possibility.
Skill set is everything!
Yeah. Tell that to Kelly, Trey, Rafi, and Jesse.
The psychology of any student/pilot is the hardest part as instructors to nurture. And yes! For future sake. A discussion on what locks a student/pilot out? Mentally and or physically. I'm sure if we take a much closer look at how to recognize and prevent talented/non-talented student/pilots. I'm sure we will start to see a pattern emerge.
What a load o' total crap.
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/12 00:12:51 UTC
One thing I know for a fact after working with thousands of newbies. Mental tension creates physical tension and vice versa.
Both can be remedied and nurtured equally and evenly.
My voice in posting on behalf of Nancy and all student pilots. Is geared and aimed more toward our community of instructors. Be they old, new or potential.
I don't want to see or hear of anymore fatalities in our beloved sport. And maybe after we are gone...we can only hope that the efforts and sacrifices we make today. Will make what we all want for our sport. A reality.....
See above.
Takeo77 - 2016/04/12 00:17:27 UTC
You're not going to get any disagreement from me. I'm still a Hang-3, but I have instructed critical skills in another venue, and I'm always thinking about how I would have taught myself differently. My instructors did a good job (which is why I am still here despite myself) but I have a long list of potential improvements inside myself for when the time is right. Hopefully everyone else is compiling that same list.
See above.
Davis Straub - 2016/04/12 00:23:34 UTC
Dave Jacob
All students at Blue Sky learn first using the low and slow method with the small scooter tow. Later students are taken to a hill side to learn to launch on a hill.
Other tow methods are used for more advanced students later at the Blue Sky flight park.
Then they graduate to cliff launches where they understand that it all comes down to one thing: you've got to hook in. Period.
The low and slow scooter tow method is in my humble opinion by far the best instruction method.
What's your current humble opinion on the safest possible weak link and why do you think that Pat was using one that was too strong to work when it needed to? Was he trading off safety for the sake of convenience?
I have written extensively about it in the Oz Report over the years...
So many wonderful things you've written extensively about it in the Oz Report over the years. Hard to understand how the sport could be going down in flames now.
...and has been endorsed by Wills Wing.
The Wills Wing that produced the tandem glider in the photo above? The Wills Wing that designs all its gliders for foot launched soaring flight, not to be motorized, tethered, or towed - and tells us to always use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less but doesn't give a flying fuck what we use for a...
...release?
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/12 01:01:29 UTC
This is proof that scooter towing, aerotowing, hillside launching, cart launching etc.. can be done with the highest degree of safety and success.
Yeah. Whenever Davis is happy with something we can safely assume that it's proof of the highest degree of safety and success.
For schools or instructors to set their ego's aside.
I'm guessing Pat's ego is been pretty much set aside. This is the event in his life that will permanently define what's left of it.
Is another subject in itself. We can learn and make teaching more enjoyable.
Since we're geared up to make the learning as unpleasant and degrading as possible.
JJ Coté - 2016/04/12 01:02:55 UTC
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 04:55:10 UTC
I should have put a ? mark after "herself."
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 05:38:58 UTC
It would be speculation if I were to say..."She was towing to prove herself!"
You know. I hate to! have to say it? But your. Punctuation and formatting is so arcane and? Unpredictable that I really can't believe that! Anybody could infer any kind of nuance from? it!
ARCANE is the adjective you'd use to describe that lunacy?
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/12 01:09:21 UTC
Sorry jjcote.
How 'bout all your other readers?
I would never claim to be a writer.
And you'd never make the slightest effort to become one. 120 posts in this thread as I write this post, 40 of them, a third, are yours and you couldn't do any better than that with a gun to your head.
And no worries for pointing it out.
But you're gonna be the one spearheading the movement to revolutionize hang gliding instruction - which is pretty much all about communication.
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/12 01:11:08 UTC
I should have mavi edit and proof read my post before I hit submit
1. "Mavi" is supposed to be capitalized, "proofread" is one word and generally something one does BEFORE editing, "post" should be plural, "
" isn't a punctuation mark with which one ends sentences.
2. Yeah, Mavi should have a bit more spare time now that he won't be busy posting on Kite Strings.
P.S. Speaking of literacy... Mission's still advertising:
http://hang-gliding.com
The Mission Soaring Hang Gliding school provides professional training on state-of-the-art equipment at our dedicated training site at Tres Pinos (near Hollister, CA),.. just south of the San Jose / San Francisco Bay Area.
top center on their home page - contrary to what I've been saying since the Nancy leak hit the airwaves.
