http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016
Davis Straub - 2016/04/13 02:53:37 UTC
Dave Jacob
Both.
Davis Straub - 2016/04/13 02:57:13 UTC
Steph,
I thought that you were in Jacksonville now.
Speaking of total fucking dickheads.
Dave Jacob - 2016/04/13 04:03:09 UTC
Hey Steph. Thanks for the insiders view on Blue Sky.
More than you can imagine.
And Davis, I appreciate the quick feedback as well as the insight.
Is he a great guy or what!
But here's the thing. At this point we are questioning how slowly MSC advances their students and how good the judgment is of the instructors relative to Blue Sky.
The standard by which everything in hang gliding is measured.
Is anyone hear able to make that comparison?
Check out Kite Strings sometime.
I learned to fly through them back in '83 and took a refresher in the mid 90's after a lapse. So I can't speak to their new regiment.
They have an army? Good thing. They'll probably be needing it soon.
I know their methodology has evolved over the years in part from external learning and through their own development.
Evolution. I think we're about to see the Darwin effect kicking in bigtime.
So they don't tend to get stuck with one thing without at least some reasoning.
"Lessee... One person fucked up a three-string connection, we didn't check him on the launch pad, had no guillotine, and he almost died. Let's put everyone on two-strings which won't work under load." The "reasoning" of most of the douchebags running hang gliding tends to be a lot worse than no reasoning at all.
As for the motor size, I would think it has the disadvantage of needing a more highly skilled operator.
And if you've got a highly skilled operator - Pat Denevan, with fifteen million pulls under his belt, for example - you're definitely good to go.
But if it's got a seasoned on the ball operator, I see no reason why a well designed power plant shouldn't be able to be configured to offer the excellent control needed to both pull and rapidly de-energize a tow.
They CAN'T rapidly - or even unrapidly - de-energize a tow. They proved that for all the world to see with Lin Lyons and then they went to Infallible Two-String Releases so now the guy on the glider end can't rapidly or unrapidly de-energize a tow EITHER.
Specifics are in the hardware design and I don't know if any of us are privy to that.
We'll just add that to the shitload of stuff we're not privy to.
We've lost a student and I think that affects all of us profoundly even if we never met her.
Why? Should we be more concerned about her than some nameless villager who just got blown to hell in a suicide bombing at a marketplace in Afghanistan? And speaking of nameless... Now, ten days after the fact, all we have is a gender, first name, and approximate age.
Something went wrong...
Nothing WENT wrong. Lotsa shit was DONE wrong.
...and if the correct cause can be identified changes can be made.
If I blow Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's fuckin' head off with a sawed off shotgun in the middle of the afternoon in Times Square is there any chance I can get you on my jury?
Maybe it will be a solution already in place at Blue Sky. Maybe it will be something completely new.
Get fucked. He put one of his beginner products who had no clue how to roll control a glider up on a release he knew she wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of using in an emergency using a winch with a mile and a half of line out and back and no guillotine, hauled her up too fast and high with her hands on the control tubes at shoulder or ear height where she couldn't control the glider, and locked her out and killed her.
And the fact that this was heavy duty engine versus a scooter tow had shit to do with anything. She wasn't towed as fast and high as she was because that was the minimum the winch was capable of doing. She was towed with the tension she was because that was exactly the tension Pat elected to use.
I just think it's worth letting the investigation run it's course...
The investigation had run its course before it started. The stated purpose of the investigation was "to review the facts and produce an accident report". If one of the facts Mitch reviewed was that Pat had opened up on her with an assault rifle they were still gonna PRODUCE an ACCIDENT report stating that she had suffered fatal injuries.
And if you'd read the SOPs you'd know that if Tim Herr decides the report casts any u$hPa member in a less than stellar light he shreds it before anyone else gets to see it.
And if you'd bothered to read any of the existing fatality reports from the past couple decades you'd know their all total crap. And even in the days of Doug Hildreth whenever a student was killed in an instructional situation and/or on a tow flight it was the instructor, school, driver who was submitting the report.
...with hands on data and first person testimony before we become too certain.
We're certain. We know that Mitch had zilch interest in first person testimony by virtue of AdamG's post stating that as of the better part of a week after the fact he hadn't been contacted for his account.
Mark G. Forbes - 2016/04/13 04:47:17 UTC
Re: Transparency of process, please
Janica Lee - 2016/04/12 07:57:32 UTC
Am I honestly the only one floored by the fact eyewitnesses haven't been contacted a week after the accident? Usually a 1st step in a non-biased investigation.
We have an experienced accident investigator working on this incident. I have not heard anything about who has or has not been contacted, but if there is an eyewitness to this accident who has not been interviewed, I'd appreciate a PM and I'll make sure that gets done. There has been a great deal of rampant speculation here, and I'd really appreciate it if you would all take a breather and wait for a report on the actual facts. These things take time to compile, but we'll get it out when it's ready.
Mark G. Forbes - 2016/04/13 04:47:17 UTC
...re emerges from his accident reporting bunker in a doomed effort to exercise a little more damage control.
We...
Who's "We"?
...have an experienced accident investigator...
Very looooong track record. Proven experienced accident investigator that works.
...working...
See? Told ya.
...on this incident.
Working to WHAT, Mark? Motherfucker towed a One who'd never been prone on a hang glider into a lockout with a release she couldn't use with a gun to her head. So the gun was fired and her brain was destroyed. How much more work do we need on this one? Trying to find out her last name?
I have not heard anything about who has or has not been contacted...
Bullshit...
AdamG - 2016/04/10 15:37:46 UTC
Ushpa hasn't contacted me and I'm not sure they will.
Every last goddam one of us heard who hadn't been contacted and we know from your first post why not. Has absolutely nothing to do with REVIEWING the FACTS.
...but if there is an eyewitness to this accident who has not been interviewed, I'd appreciate a PM and I'll make sure that gets done.
Why don't you have Mitch interview him on The Jack Show so's we'll ALL be sure it gets done?
There has been a great deal of rampant speculation here...
That's because there's been a great deal of rampant information suppression there.
...and I'd really appreciate it if you would all take a breather and wait for a report on the actual facts.
1. I'm sure you would. You never fail to. It's in the interest of hang gliding, however, to do the exact opposite of what you'd appreciate.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
William Olive - 2013/02/27 20:55:06 UTC
Like the rest of us, you have no idea what really happened on that tow.
We probably never will know.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/28 01:17:55 UTC
Well said Billo
I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.
Ah but hg'ers get so uppity when you tell them not to speculate.
2. Not everyone who's been engaging in a great deal of rampant speculation is over there, Mark.
These things take time to compile, but we'll get it out when it's ready.
Sure ya will, Mark...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)
Mark G. Forbes - 2015/03/30 23:29:59 UTC
Please, no speculation
Hi folks,
I understand the interest in learning the cause of this, but could we please not speculate on the forum? We have a very experienced tow administrator (Mitch Shipley) headed to Las Vegas to do an accident investigation, and when we learn what really happened we'll convey that information to our members. He'll be working with two of the local instructors there to get to the truth.
Meanwhile, please refrain from offering speculation or opinion on what might have happened, what might have been theoretically done to prevent it and so on. Emotions are raw, people are hurting, and uninformed speculation doesn't help anybody. News reports are of little use since they're written by people who have no idea how our sport works or what is typical.
Thanks for your understanding and patience.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41697
Two Dead on Hang Glider
Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/12 17:26:18 UTC
The REAL real answer is that I don't know. I haven't heard from Mitch, Martin is in Japan right now on vacation, the EC hasn't been notified. When I have actual facts I'll answer your question, even if that answer turns out to be "I can't discuss the details."
Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/17 01:19:44 UTC
Nuances
As to this specific accident, I've heard nothing as yet about the current state of the investigation. I'm confident that when it's complete and there's something to report, I'll hear about it then. Unless there's a compelling reason not to report on it, I'll pass along what I know. If there is a compelling reason which prevents me from discussing it, I'll tell you that too.
Mitch Shipley - 2015/04/17 21:44:06 UTC
Since then we have independently analyzed what we have and continued to assist the local police with their investigation, which likely will take some time (weeks) to finalize, as is the case with most aviation accident investigations. Barring any findings that warrant telling USHPA pilots immediately for safety reasons (and we don’t have any findings like that to date) there will be no reports about what happened until after the investigation is complete to preclude putting out speculative or incorrect information.
Davis Straub - 2015/04/18 21:44:29 UTC
Enough
Ryan Voight - 2016/04/13 05:07:31 UTC
I don't mean to pick at you Mark- I appreciate your time and efforts more than I could convey here- but aren't we still waiting on the report from the other H1 student pilot that died during instruction?
1. He was a TWO.
2. We're still waiting on a ton of shit. If you go to u$hPa's website you can see that no hang glider has bought it since 2015/08/24 - Craig Pirazzi.
Again I'll say, I don't mean this towards you, but I want you to understand why it is hard to sit quite and wait on faith that "the truth will come out"... and that Tim will "allow" all the facts to be released (even though HE works for USHPA, and not the other way around!)
Right.
AdamG - 2016/04/13 05:17:59 UTC
I was interviewed by Mitch and told him what I saw. I'm not going to speak further about it at this point.
That's OK, Adam. You've gotten the information into good hands. You have no further responsibility to inform the hang gliding community about anything.
Mark G. Forbes - 2016/04/13 06:56:08 UTC
I assume you're talking about the towing accident in Florida earlier this year.
Nah, we're talking about the stunningly similar towing CRASH in Florida on the third anniversary of the unfortunate Quest invisible dust devil incident.
I have not seen anything on it, but I'll follow up and find out where we're at with the investigation and report.
That's OK, Mark. The fact that we've already heard NOTHING on it already tells us where we're at with the investigation and report.
The purpose of publishing information on accidents is to highlight those factors which may be addressed by improved procedures...
But WON'T be because...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27736
Increase in our USHpA dues
Mark G. Forbes - 2012/12/20 06:21:33 UTC
We're re-working the accident reporting system, but again it's a matter of getting the reports submitted and having a volunteer willing to do the detail work necessary to get them posted. There are also numerous legal issues associated with accident reports, which we're still wrestling with. It's a trade-off between informing our members so they can avoid those kinds of accidents in the future, and exposing ourselves to even more lawsuits by giving plaintiff's attorneys more ammunition to shoot at us.
Imagine a report that concludes, "If we'd had a procedure "x" in place, then it would have probably prevented this accident. And we're going to put that procedure in place at the next BOD meeting." Good info, and what we want to be able to convey. But what comes out at trial is, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client suffered injury because USHPA knew or should have known that a safety procedure was not in place, and was therefore negligent and at fault." We're constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention.
...to prevent future accidents.
So why don't you tell us all about all the improved procedures we've implemented to prevent future accidents in the past? When all the fuckin' Jack Show douchebags were making cracks about Tad's Rube Goldberg release system the Friday and Saturday before last wasn't Nancy one of those future accidents which could've been prevented?
The purpose is not to provide details which do not further that goal.
How the fuck do you know what details will and won't further that goal? If Pat goes down for negligent homicide and u$hPa is sued out of existence is there no possibility that procedures will be implemented to prevent future accidents?
I do not know whether there were procedural or training factors which could be improved in the case of the Florida accident...
Neither do I, Mark. It seems to me that everybody was doing everything just fine. Probably an invisible dust devil.
...or whether the accident was a result of failure to observe the existing rules and standards.
Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03
NEVER CUT THE POWER...
Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually
I have not seen a report on the mid-air at McClure either, and I don't know if one is being written. I'll ask. In that specific case, I don't know that an accident analysis could provide any new information; two pilots failed to see-and-avoid, and one of them crashed.
We know ONE of them failed to see-and-avoid and we know that we have right of way rules which recognize that much of the time ONE of the gliders has no possibility of seeing the other. And since it was Ken Muscio who died and we have no statement from Stan Albright who landed OK we've got a pretty good idea whose fault it was.
They both knew the rules, they both knew the site, they both knew each other...and somehow they managed to collide anyway.
No shit. See above.
We need to focus...
...on learning what aspects of training or operating limits can be improved to enhance safety.
When are we gonna be doing that? After we're really sure that the US bloodbath that began on 2015/03/27 is really over?
I'll see what I can find out about pending reports. As we transition to the RRG, we may have better visibility into accidents when we own the entire process of handling liability claims.
Is there any way we can get in touch with Nancy's family and let them know?
Ryan Voight - 2016/04/13 07:12:41 UTC
Thank you Mark
Thank you for thanking Mark, Ryan.
See if you can advance up to some one-arm pushups.
