2016/04/03 Tres Pinos fatality

[<BS>]

You "weight shift" control the glider running across the field no hands but you "cheat" a bit here and there as needed and dismiss that input as irrelevant and may not even remember doing it.

If your feet are still making contact with the ground - it's easier to move your body with your feet and legs into the position you want it to be and hold that position using your hands, as opposed to remaining in place and relying solely on torque to move the glider. A good technique, just being over sold.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

NMERider - 2016/04/14 20:40:18 UTC

I'm telling you it works. I have done it, A LOT. For the same reasons that weight shifting works (it's the same damn thing)....

Sorry good buddy but it's not the same things as weight shifting. It does work but only within certain limits.

That's a bit generous.

Running side to side with hands off the control frame applies a moderate lateral force to the glider that is being flown like any other single-line kite. The force is lateral. LATERAL.

Weight shift control while flying the glider or while running during launch...

...or while standing in place in a breeze...

..occurs when the hands are on the control frame and shifting weight from side to side via pressure on the control frame creates torque.

And transmitting the increases and reductions in the force through the respective flying wires to their attachment points at the leading edge / cross spar junctions.

TORQUE. It creates torque on the roll axis of then glider. Although there may be some degree of LATERAL force applied during the process, it is in fact the TORQUE that primarily causes the glider to roll and not the LATERAL force.

Minus the torque the lateral force rolls the glider the other way.

A stable single line kite will follow the lateral force transmitted through the kite string. An unstable single-line kite such and an Indonesian fighting kite is controlled by letting the line go slack and then pulling on the line at the precise moment that the wobbling kite is pointed in the desired direction. This same effect may apply to a hang glider that is being kited hands-off.

The full set of dynamics and parameters for single-line kites is extremely complex and far beyond any relevance to either this discussion or why this young lady is now dead.

The main reason she's dead is cause she was never taught how to apply torque to the control bar.

When a hang glider is being towed and is at a very high angle of incidence the weight of the pilot no longer acts to create torque upon the roll axis during shifting the pilot from side to side.

Yeah it does. It may not be enough to prevent progression into a lockout but it's always gonna have an effect on what the glider does, even if it's just to mitigate the acceleration of the lockout - assuming the glider's flying anyway.

The weight of the pilot now acts primarily upon the glider to create TORQUE upon the YAW AXIS and not on the ROLL AXIS.

I'm gonna say no. Unless things are so tits up that something's pinned against a tube or wire - which isn't a significant issue even HERE:

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so we don't need to and shouldn't be talking about it - all of the pilot weight and tow tension is going to the hang point (anchor point for two point AT bridle - close enough) which is on the yaw axis or close fucking enough. I don't think you can yaw a swept wing hang glider enough to be worth talking about no matter what you do.

There is no HGMA or DHV or other certification that I am aware of that regulates the control and stability of hang gliders while being ground towed.

Is there any HGMA or DHV or other certification that covers gliders being flown like:

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07-300

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versus like:

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This:

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look problematic?

Tell me when:

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny

is bad advice.

If anyone knows of such a set of standards, tests and results, please chime in with facts.

Hang gliders are certified to perform with a pilot within a hook-in range prone and with both hands right where Ryan...

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...has them damn near all the time. Fly on the control tubes or take one of those hands off for a second at a critical phase of flight - launch, landing, tow misalignment - and your likelihood of having a bad day goes up by a factor of a hundred. And the hang gliding industry FORCES its participants to take their hands off the basetube at ALL the critical times and assures them that it's no problem at worst and actually way safer just about all the time. And this is the fundamental reason why Pat killed another student two Sundays ago. And everybody who tolerates these lunatic control tubes flying and easily reachable releases bastardizations of the sport has blood on his hands right along with Pat.

In any event it is my understanding that there have been tens of thousands of safe, students ground-based training tows in the history of this sport. Maybe the number is in the hundreds of thousands? I don't know. But I do know there have been at least two training disasters during the past year...

Also undoubtedly a bunch of broken arms and other serious crashes and injuries we'll never hear about. This was an UGLY fatality at a big commercial operation and look how well they managed to keep the lid on things. It's a no brainer that there's at least ten times the number of lesser catastrophes.

...and this has me and everyone else concerned.

1. EVERYONE else?
2. Concerned about what? The fact that we killed another student or ass covering and the ability to continue business as usual?

Can we all please leave the pissing contests out of this discussion for the time being?

No. We hafta get solid on aeronautical theory before we start teaching Nancies to fly and here we are 1.2 centuries after Otto Lilienthal with, institutionally, no fuckin' clue how hang glider control works. And we see one hundred percent of students being forced upright doing nothing but arrow-straight training flights and when they're finally permitted to touch the control bar the second year we see them all trying to turn the glider by twisting their bodies inside the control frame.

When somebody's got something wrong - instructor or recreational flyer - we need to piss all over him until he gets it right or learns to keep his stupid mouth shut and stop infecting others with his idiocy.

What needs to be addressed is getting all the relevant facts into Mitch Shipley's hands.

While keeping the originals to ourselves so's when Mitch releases one of his snake oil cover-up reports we can fuckin' demolish the sleazy piece o' shit and his fellow operatives.

There appears to be more incidents going on than are being reported.

Duh.

If there are complaints to be leveled at any school or instructor...

Name some schools and instructors who don't need to be shut down immediately and permanently.

...there is a place to lodge complaints about unsafe practices that is separate from the AIRS database.

Kite Strings is the only place you can actually do it.

It is here:
http://www.ushpa.org/page/online-feedback-form

http://www.kitestrings.org/topic14.html

Additionally, the RDs for the region in question need to be...

...decapitated and have their heads put up on pikes as warnings to others.

...contacted personally with the same information if it can be done without creating a war.

We got a war. We're starting to win. We need it expanded.

I am aware that there are battles being fought within certain regions among conflicting camps of instructors.

Hopefully they'll all kill each other off and make my job a lot easier.

I cannot say who is right or who is wrong.

I can. They're all wrong. 'Specially in a sport that demands things be gotten 100.00 percent right.

It's seldom so black or white as we all know in our hearts.

I'm seeing it as black or white - and it's damn near all black.

So please focus on the task of preventing another disaster before it happens...

That's what the initial purpose of Kite Strings was. Now after near five and a half years I realize that the disasters are inevitable under entities as fundamentally evil as u$hPa and commercial hang gliding so bring 'em on and let them become history lessons.

...and leave the pissing contests for the campfire section.

Or Kite Strings. Piss on the right people for the right reasons and you'll be welcomed with open arms.

My 2p Worth
JD

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Brian Scharp - 2016/04/14 20:43:55 UTC

Ryan Voight - 2016/04/14 20:18:19 UTC

I'm telling you it works.

It's obvious what you did in the video worked. It's just that it's not an example of steering a glider by running toward the lifting wing and never touching the downtubes.

Ryan Voight - 2016/04/14 20:49:27 UTC

I think you don't understand the word TELLING, and mistook it for showing?

No. You've been purporting to do both.

I have never read anything I disagreed with more, than Jono's depiction of how weight shift rolls a hang glider. JEEZUS.

I'll bet that's your dad's take on it too. It's a no brainer that everything you're saying would also be what we'd be hearing from Paul if we could ever pin him down and force him to say anything. We notice he's not coming on to correct any misconceptions.

But I'll leave it be, because he is absolutely correct in the last line of his post.

Sounds like another declare victory and leave post.

NMERider - 2016/04/14 20:58:28 UTC

I don't care whether you believe be or not. Talk to Steve Pearson or another qualified aeronautical engineer who understands the difference between torque and lateral force (both acting upon or very near the center of lift of a hang glider) and how these apply to control a weight-shift aircraft (hang glider).

While you're talking to him ask him what an appropriate weak link is and why we're supposed to always use one.

After you have been educated...

Good freakin' luck.

...between these two very distinct and different forces, come back and tell everyone what you learned versus what you currently believe.

It's an opinion based sport. Mostly ya wanna go with the most popular opinions. Helps a lot in rubbing everybody the right way.

Michael Grisham - 2016/04/14 21:33:50 UTC

Jeez, no wonder we have problems!

Davis Straub - 2016/04/14 21:50:35 UTC

So if the pilot is drifting off line during the low and slow scooter tow you don't try to pull them back on line by throttling up but throttle down and let them come softly and gently to earth, correct?

Why are you asking? I thought you were such a great fucking expert on hang glider towing that you were qualified to dictate what everyone could and couldn't use as towing equipment on his glider.

Davis Straub - 2016/04/14 21:53:11 UTC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pkB7GIxTUU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pkB7GIxTUU

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NMERider - 2016/04/14 22:33:52 UTC

Possibly. It depends upon many factors. Briefly, if line tension is reduced so the glider leaves towing (kiting) flight and transitions to gliding flight with enough altitude then I don't see why the pilot cannot get it leveled and straight with enough spare altitude to resume towing (kiting) ascent.

Do you WANT somebody who fucks up a scooter tow to climb back up and resume?

Of course this means they may be so far down field by this phase that they have to re-launch in order get towed up to an altitude to where they can release and practice setting up landing approaches, linked turns, etc.

Two reasons plus the combination of the two for a tow to get out of control - can't fly, nasty conditions. Somebody who fucks up a scooter tow doesn't need to be setting up approaches and if the glider gets kicked out of alignment that's a pretty good indication that conditions aren't acceptable for scooter tow training.

This of course adds to the time spent by the school or instructor and therefore eats into the profit margin.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Janni Papakrivos - 2008/11/05 23:03:26 UTC

I probably witnessed fifty broken weak links this summer at Highland.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6326
An OK Day at Ridgely

Matthew Graham - 2014/06/09 01:51:11 UTC

It was pretty quiet at Ridgely when we arrived at noon. Brian VH and Felix were there-- and Sammy (sp) and Bertrand... and Soraya Rios from the ECC. She was not flying.

Felix test flew Bertrand's T2C for about an hour and loved it. Brian had a short flight on a Falcon. I got on the flight line at a little after 1pm behind Sammi. She had a sledder. Then the tandem glider called rank and went ahead of me. The tandem broke a weak link and it took a while to sort out a new weak link. I finally towed around 1:30 and also broke a link at 450'. Back to the end of the line. Actually, my wife Karen let my cut in front of her. Bertrand and Sammi towed again. Each having sledder. The cirrus had moved in and things did not look good. Again I arrived at the front of the line only to have the tandem call dibs. And then the tug needed gas. I thought I would never get into the air...

Am I being harsh when I say this? Yes I am.

You want harsh?

NMERider - 2016/04/14 22:37:50 UTC

Here's a classic example of a pilot...

How do you know he's a pilot? What's he doing to indicate that he's not just some guy who walked up and plopped down fifty bucks for a glider ride?

...whose control inputs are barely even detectable although I clearly heard him say several bad and blasphemous words.

Here's you tow launching, Jonathan:

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You're starting out prone on a cart with both hands on the basetube because you have all the extra skills to do those things?

I don't see much adverse from the effect of tow line.

You don't NEED much adverse from the effect of the towline when...

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...you're totally sideways.

Mostly I see a student pilot who is barely even shifting his weight or pulling in when he needs to be.

How effectively can someone pull in when "flying" like:

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I see a victim being degraded by putting him up on total shit "equipment", in a total shit "control" posture following total shit "instruction". Ask a Three or Four to go up like that. This is universal institutional HAZING. They got laws to punish motherfuckers from doing this kinda shit to new students in LEGITIMATE educational institutions. Hang gliding does nothing but shield itself from having to conform to laws of civilized society.

What about Majo's two broken arms. Anyone remember that?

Yeah, we remember that. We reached out to try to help her but she wasn't interested. Warrior Spirit. She's gonna take on Mother Nature and win. Fuck her.

Mike Jefferson - 2016/04/14 22:55:46 UTC

I hope that guy...

Tyler McKean.

...was ok. Seemed to me he had no idea how to steer a hang glider.

1. Did it look like he was set up to be able to steer a hang glider? When you really need to steer a hang glider do you go bolt upright and put your hands on the control tubes? Do you know one single halfway competent pilot who flies like that?

2. If he has no idea how to steer a hang glider...

Garrett Speeter - 2016/04/14 00:11:26 UTC

I bet pilot would still be alive today if he/she decided to self-teach.

2016/04/14 02:10:18 UTC - Sink This! -- Paul Hurless

...whose fault is it?

It looked like the tow operator did his job and did not tow him into the ground.

The first job of the fuckin' tow operator - who, by the way, has never identified himself or commented on this incident - is NOT TO TOW SOMEONE WHO HAS NO IDEA HOW TO STEER A HANG GLIDER - ASSHOLE.

NMERider - 2016/04/14 23:14:50 UTC

Careful who and what you endorse, Jonathan.

Christopher LeFay - 2016/04/14 23:55:47 UTC

I just had the pleasure of meeting Majo; I believe she should be down-your-way, Davis, in Florida, any day now.

I'm guessing they'll get along famously.

Her subsequent recovery and journey as a pilot is epic- if it were a film, no one would believe it was real.

I'd believe it.

Christopher LeFay - 2016/04/15 00:04:13 UTC

NMERider - 2016/04/14 22:33:52 UTC

Possibly. It depends upon many factors...

...proficiency chief among those. Sure, if the pilot resumes course and signals that they want to be pulled more AND the tow operator deems it within their capacity to do so with safe margin.

Oh. So the tow operator should know something about the capacity of the person he has on the line. And here I was thinking that all he needed to know was that the person was using a standard loop of precision fishing line to ensure that nothing bad could happen to him.

If we're talking about students without a demonstrated reliable capacity who haven't communicated- well then...

What are we doing towing them up into situations in which they can kill themselves?

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..."possible" and "safe" are a dangerous distance apart.

That total shit excuse for a hang glider tow should've never come anywhere close to happening. What did Whitewater do with Tyler that was any better than what Pat did with Nancy? Luck with just a mildly banged up "student" rather than a fatality?

Davis Straub - 2016/04/15 02:15:22 UTC

Majo will be here soon to take over the Quest Air office.

And continue its proud tradition of being involved in perfecting aerotowing for over twenty years.

NMERider - 2016/04/15 02:30:22 UTC

We are engaged in an activity filled with uncertainties, impact trajectories and disaster possibilities.

So let's make sure we fly upright any time we're within two hundred feet of anything hard so it's our legs we break rather than our faces, heads, necks.

Why even use theoretical concepts like safety and risk management...

And aeronautics.

...when we can use words that are visceral, hit home and really get our attention?
Let's not forget the big one: tragedy. It's just around the corner every moment we are engaged.

Incredibly close around the corner every moment some of us are engaged. But at least Rafi died doing what he loved without ever having ground a sidewire into any of the sharp rocks at Funston by doing a stomp test.

Davis Straub - 2016/04/15 02:30:32 UTC

This video discussed earlier:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Davis Straub - 2014/09/01 15:22:41 UTC

I can tell you that I fly with a 200lb weaklink on one side of my 750lb pro tow bridle. I am happy with it.

Ryan Voight - 2016/04/15 02:50:45 UTC

Slope Skimmer - 2016/04/14 22:55:46 UTC

I hope that guy was ok. Seemed to me he had no idea how to steer a hang glider. It looked like the tow operator did his job and did not tow him into the ground.

NMERider - 2016/04/14 23:14:50 UTC

NOOOO
Yes, pilot...

What pilot?

...had no idea. Not their...

His.

...fault if they...

He.

...weren't...

Wasn't.

...taught and tested!

Wouldn't have been his fault if he HAD been taught and tested. If he had then the problem would've been the legitimacy of the teaching and testing. And we know any administered was or would've been total shit just by looking at any single frame from that near snuff film.

No, tow operator did not do their...

His.

...job- like Davis said, they...

He.

...pretty obviously DID tow them...

Him.

...right into the ground!

And has made no comment on the incident or given any indication that Whitewater will abandon its tried and true strategy of continuing to do the same things over and over to get more and more perfected results.

And the only reason we know this incident ever happened is 'cause the victim posted a video. And this video was posted on 2014/08/18. So let's call the crash Saturday 2014/08/16 ('cause he went up AT tandem the next day). And on 2014/09/29 - 44 days later - Joe Julik was killed instantly because he went UPRIGHT for final in strong gusty conditions and got turned downwind...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...big fuckin' surprise. And Whitewater gave us shit in the way of a report and told the mainstream press that he was hit by an invisible dust devil.

If experienced pilots can't...

...or refuse to...

...see the difference here, how can we expect students to?

The same things over and over again.

This just became very educational, in a very uninspiring, depressing kind of way...

Why?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/01 03:46:29 UTC

Among ourselves, we agree (via the waiver) that we understand we're engaged in a risky sport that can cause serious injury or death. We each agree that we are personally and individually responsible for our own safety. If we have an accident and get hurt, we agree in advance that it is solely our own fault, no matter what the circumstances might be. We sign at the bottom saying that we fully understand these things, that we accept them, and that we know we are giving up the right to sue anybody if an accident happens.

Those are fundamental tenets of our sport. We are all individually responsible for ourselves and our safety. We need to see and avoid all other pilots, avoid crashing into people or property and use good judgment when flying. If someone doesn't agree with those principles, then they don't need to be involved in our sport.

What part of that were you having so much trouble understanding?

Zack C - 2012/06/02 02:20:45 UTC

I just cannot fathom how our sport can be so screwed up.

Who have we got to blame, Former Regional Director Ryan Voight? I heard you casting your vote to expel Bob for acting contrary to the interests of the Corporation but assholes like the one who slammed Tyler into the cornfield get free passes all the fuckin' time. Pat Denevan did the same thing two Sundays ago considerably harder and so far he's gotten a free pass. And don't tell me that Mitch is still hard at work collecting data and interviewing eyewitnesses to get as complete an understanding as possible of what went wrong on that one.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

NMERider - 2016/04/15 03:01:49 UTC

It's easy to look at this either way very honestly.

No.

That line could be perceived as being slack with no effect on the glider or it could be perceived of as pulling enough to sustain a lock-out.

It couldn't POSSIBLY be pulling enough to sustain a lockout. Whitewater is UNDOUBTEDLY using an Infallible Weak Link which will break before you can get into too much trouble.

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That line is having a significant adverse effect on the glider trajectory.

In either event it should never have happened.

Correct.

It was avoidable and preventable.

So why are we going after Pat and Mission and letting these Whitewater assholes have a free ride?

It was a needless and unnecessary event no matter which angle we may come at it. I think we can all agree that there was no reason for this to happen.

But no way in hell we're gonna all agree that the "student" should've been:
- prone with his hands continuously on the basetube from start to finish
- equipped with a release that didn't stink on ice and would've allowed him to blow tow while maintaining maximum possible control of the glider

It was no act of God or twist of fate.

Shit happens, dude. We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.

It was a failure. On whose part I cannot be certain...

I sure can.

...but a failure on one more or individuals' parts, that is unmistakable.

100.00 percent Whitewater. Same as Pat and Mission. If these tows had gone off textbook the motherfuckers would using them as further proof of the fantastic jobs they do in teaching and safety. They don't get to toss out the ones that end with crumples as the faults of inherently shitty students who should've stuck to checkers.

C'mon Mark. Now would be a really good opportunity to bolster u$hPa's position that all hang glider crashes are one hundred percent the fault and responsibility of the guy hooked into the glider.

Mike Jefferson - 2016/04/15 03:34:45 UTC

Weather or not...

Yeah. Goes great with "line pressure".

...the tow operator cut the power...

Which would have been at total violation of Blue Sky / Wills Wing Scooter Towing protocol...



Right...

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...
Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

...Ryan?

...only that operator knows for sure.

Bullshit. He cut the power. Just like Harold did...

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...after launching Lin with a jammed release. The problem is that it doesn't take much in the way of substantially misaligned tow tension to overwhelm a pilot's control authority and crash the glider.

I hope he chimes in.

And I hope Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney posts that he's actually a totally incompetent, stupid, lying, sleazy piece o' shit and apologizes for all the irreparable damage he's done to the sport and its participants.

The point I was trying to make is if you cut the power or cut the line with a knife the locked out pilot has a good chance of leveling the wings or flying out of the situation.

How relevant is that to a incident in which the "pilot" has no fuckin' clue how to fly a glider and either allowed to the glider to get or put the glider in a dangerous misaligned tow situation to begin with?

This may result in landing down wind or off course but mostly in control of the glider.

Idiot.

I still maintain he would have hit harder if the line pressure was not released.

Yeah. The line was very obviously pushing him into the ground on this one - idiot.

Davis Straub - 2016/04/15 12:08:02 UTC

As soon as the pilot went off line, the tow operator should have released the line pressure.

Fuck you, Davis.

Of course, once again, the beginning student should not have been towed this high at all.

How do you know weather or not this was a beginning "student"? How do you know that he hadn't had twenty lessons before and scored his One? As was at least partially and likely totally the case with Nancy at Mission.

2016/04/15 21:15:19 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay

Fuck you, Christopher.

Ryan Voight - 2016/04/15 13:28:18 UTC

I'm not sure where the idea that the line tension...

Pressure. If you know the difference between tension and pressure and your goal is to educate and make the sport safer then why are you tolerating assholes like Slope and Davis referring to line pressure? Davis's agenda is to misinform hang gliding culture to the maximum extent possible in order to keep them confused, ignorant, stupid and thus more under the control of himself and his commercial hang gliding pigfucker buddies. If you're honestly trying to make anything better you're wasting your time if you're not starting by cutting Davis to absolute shreds.

...was reduced or released is coming from...

Common sense? The dickhead on the winch was obviously stupid and irresponsible enough to tow an unqualified student up hard and high but I one hundred percent guarantee you that he had the winch freewheeled by:

07-02116
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5555/15041418836_82f33eec66_o.png


And that would've been plenty of time and air to allow a safe recovery for someone who knew how to fly. But the reason Tyler was in that position in the first place was because he didn't know how to fly.

What I see is a glider that is gradually banking steeper and steeper, but does not seem to be allowed to "fly" in the new direction it should be heading.

Yeah. The towline is weight shifting him to the left - the same way you use lateral thrust from your feet...

06-0911
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1598/25890755153_88a24e4671_o.png


...on the ground - and under the high wing to roll the glider back level.

Instead I see a banked glider that appears to enter a slipping situation towards the ground.

Yeah. Tyler must be doing something to override the autocorrecting effect of his center of mass bridle.

Since the pilot pretty clearly isn't pulling in heavily, the only reason I'm seeing for the glider to not be coordinating that turn and slipping toward the Earth is because the tow force was pulling down in pitch as the glider rolled steeper and steeper.

Yeah. It's also pulling glider down in by pulling Tyler with a forward vector...

http://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4778/39004826790_90f4fd60c9_o.jpg


...under the nose. Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney explains the dynamics of this to us muppets...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/24 12:20:06 UTC

Bad habit #1, not flying the glider... just letting the tug drag you around by the nose, combines with the fact that pro towing REQUIRES the pilot to do something (not let that bar move). So instead of holding the bar where it is, bad habit pilot just lets the tug pull him. This pulls him through the control frame with the same effect as the pilot pulling in... a LOT.

I've seen gliders go negative while still on the cart this way.
The results are never pretty.

...over on the Davis Show. (Pity he isn't helping out with the conversation over here - but that's what happens when you don't rub Jack the right way.)

After reading that description- do you guys see what I see, did I miss something that lead you to say the tow pressure...

Oh. Right. I forgot. The terms are synonymous, interchangeable.

...was released? Either I'm teaching you guys what to be looking for, or I'm missing something and need to be taught.

You DO need to be taught, Ryan. The problem seems to be that...

Ryan Voight - 2016/04/14 03:41:18 UTC

Wager all you want, but I've done this a lot already. I'm not making s*** up here, or speaking of something I haven't thoroughly tried out (like you are!).

I could go out to a big field, set up a glider, put a harness on, set up some cameras, and thoroughly document how I can run long distances while still keeping the glider going exactly where I want it to go...

But frankly, that sounds exhausting. And I really don't have that kind of free time in my life- to chase down something I already know and have practiced quite a bit.

I've already spent more time than I should on the .org, and on this thread specifically, in effort to share education and improve safety. I just taught you something(s) you didn't know, and your blockhead response is that I should take more time out of my life to "show you".

Dude, I'm sorry... but unless you want to come here and PAY ME TO SHOW YOU... since instruction is my job and how I feed my family after all... I'm inclined to say piss off. Why don't you go set up a glider and run around with it and, when you realize you CAN steer by changing the direction you're running, you can buy me a beer for sharing a skill with you that just might save a launch some day...

Or... you can continue to disagree. Without trying it. Funny thing is, physics doesn't really care or rely on your agreement, it just is.

So... what say you... ready to take an afternoon and go have your mind blown? Or will you choose to stay behind the keyboard talking about things you don't seem to understand fully?

...you're really not all that teachable.

Either way, this is a slightly constructive discussion (even thought it's only very remotely related to the thread topic)

Bullshit. We're talking aeronautical theory and if we don't get that right before we leave the ground we can't understand what's happening and why and the sport keeps augering in the way it is now.

2016/04/15 21:16:21 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay

Get fucked, Christopher.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Timothy Ward - 2016/04/15 14:48:55 UTC

Well, the lockout is an issue...

Is it? A tow lockout is a condition in which misaligned towline tension overwhelms the pilot's capacity to control the glider enough to sustain the tow.

Here's a glider at Dunlap:

04-1409
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3903/14555125331_c930110666_o.png


being temporarily locked out by a thermal blast on his left wing. He's fully extended under the left wing resisting and still being turned away from his desired heading.

Here's the max extent of Tyler's resistance effort:

10-02226
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3906/14877769980_78ff2fbd6e_o.png


That is a decertified glider with him upright with his hands on the control tubes and he can only effect a small fraction of the roll authority he'd have configured the way a glider's designed to be flown.

Here's a reasonably good free flight example of Tyler:

09-23425
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3922/14877641499_b6912f1396_o.png

22-23625
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3900/15064336515_50d564c882_o.png

26-24801
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5595/15041335306_f413b84ff4_o.png

41-25511
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5564/15041323426_3de7430b07_o.png

49-25801
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3839/14877670410_089c641b5c_o.png

58-30111
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5580/14877665180_0994359f31_o.png


Career ender. Was that a lockout crash because his ability to control the glider was overwhelmed?

...but the elephant is: why the hell would you tow someone who apparently didn't know how to turn that high?

The elephant that you Jack Show morons wouldn't be able to detect if he had a tusk three feet up your asses is that harness and that "control" position.

The advantage, if there is one...

There isn't.

...to a training hill, is that the energy involved in a crash is going to be limited by how high up the hill you start...

1. What about the wind? If you fly off a fifty foot hill is it possible to get turned back into it and hit with enough energy to kill yourself?

2. People have been quaded and killed after ground skim has begun - at which time launch altitude is totally irrelevant - in routine landing mode in Happy Acres putting greens.

...and it's unlikely that much more will get added during a training flight.

1. Barring gusts.
2. Adding as much energy as possible to a flight is what one hundred percent of training hill students or told to do at launch.
3. Energy is what makes it possible for a wing to fly and lotsa energy translates to lotsa airspeed and control authority.

In towing, the operator is constantly adding energy to the glider.

Bullshit. That's like saying when you're driving across Kansas on cruise control you're constantly adding energy to the car. The car has the same amount of kinetic energy at the two hundred mile marker that it did at the one hundred mile marker (ignoring weight reduction due to fuel burning). You're burning gas to MAINTAIN the car's kinetic energy which would otherwise be dissipated mostly by wind resistance.

Same thing the way initial scooter tow training. You're burning gas to keep the glider skimming at a steady altitude and speed. And you can add or subtract as circumstances allow for or demand.

Done properly, this could result in more time aloft to learn.

DOES. That's the whole idea. But you can't do it if you're not doing shit to teach the student to fly or allow him to learn to fly. And NOBODY can learn to fly a glider safely while upright on the control tubes - as was the case with both Tyler and Nancy.

But "properly" for training involves never having very much energy in the glider at any one time.

Just enough to allow it to wallow around in mush mode and drop in harmless inconvenience mode when the Rooney Link increases the safety of the towing operation.

NMERider - 2016/04/15 16:13:49 UTC

Ryan Voight - 2016/04/15 13:28:18 UTC

I'm not sure where the idea that the line tension was reduced or released is coming from...

Your observation here is spot on.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC

Davis,

Your weak link comments are dead on.

The glider remained in an increasing right-hand bank that was exacerbated by the remaining tension on the tow line pulling the 'lever arm' of the pilot attachment point...

That's a lot more of a pendulum than a 'lever arm'. A lever arm is what we had when the lower attachment was on the control bar.

...to the glider's left which rolled the glider even more to its right.

His spot on observation there was that the glider should've rolled back level when the towline weight shifted Tyler back under the left wing.

That tow line tension should have been fully slackened the moment it was clear the student's sub-minimal control inputs weren't having any effect on the glider's path.

That towline pressure should never have been applied to anyone in that harness with that tow "equipment" in the first place.

Yes, this would have allowed the wings to level and the glider to fly straight.

If the wings were ALLOWED to do what they wanted he'd still have kept rolling to the right.

Good observation!

An observation anyway.

NMERider - 2016/04/15 16:18:05 UTC

Timothy Ward - 2016/04/15 14:48:55 UTC

...but the elephant is: why the hell would you tow someone who apparently didn't know how to turn that high?

Profit margin. The school's bottom line. Economic considerations. Money. These are the elephant as I perceive it. Call me a cynic all you like but I've been exposed to this 'elephant in the sport' and it's one ugly-ass mastodon that never became extinct.

So shoddily run training programs reduce operating costs and make commercial hang gliding more profitable in the long run? It that what we're seeing happening out in the real world?

Ridgely thought it could run an ugly-ass operation with shit personnel, shit attitudes, shit competence, and shit equipment. They're extinct - along with any practical tow options for a huge chunk of the Mid Atlantic area.

Ryan Voight - 2016/04/15 16:46:17 UTC

That's a popular theory, Jono.

To offer another, and the one I prefer to believe (however bias I may be, as I *hope* it's this one and not that one you said)

Instructor(s) are usually "good people", kind hearted and willing to heavily invest their lives toward helping others live their dreams of flight. Hang Gliding instruction is a career path steered by passion and love, not profit or self-centeredness. So, when I see something like this, I have to believe it's a mistake made by the instructor stemming from just not knowing any better. He probably did a series of tows that all ended well enough, and he took those positive outcomes as signs of the student's readiness to fly higher- rather than observing and evaluating the student's demonstration of specific skills. The instructor might also not have a mental "teaching toolbox" of tasks and skill building focus points to use to advance someone's learning experience WITHOUT adding any addition height (or energy, as it was well put above)

Nope. There's no excuse for putting any human up like that. There's no way in hell I myself would go up like that and on crap like that.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34229
AT release

piano_man - 2016/04/01 15:16:53 UTC

Can anyone tell me how and if this thing works?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/sets/72057594141352219/

Ryan Voight - 2016/04/01 16:15:08 UTC

Which one? Looks like a collection of images of all different release types...

piano_man - 2016/04/01 16:34:04 UTC

It's only part in jest as today is April Fool's Day, but seriously, I've tried to make sense of all those knots and pulleys but always give up. It seems with todays technology it would be easy to post a demo of how this or these releases work, e.g, youtube.

Just wondering if anyone here has ever seen one of these releases up close, tried 'em, etc.

You Jack Show assholes can make all the smartass and abusive cracks about me and my equipment you want - but the fact that people are still looking at it is absolute proof that they realize the Industry options all suck. If I'd put up illustrations for the topless glider design I came up with a dozen years ago nobody would be looking at or talking about them 'cause there's nothing wrong with available gliders and they're as good as they're ever gonna get.

And your post was TWO DAYS prior to Mission killing a student who locked out and slammed in still on tow. That's the equivalent of a new driver who lost the curve and slammed into a tree without ever applying her brakes - using the lever installed on the front passenger seat floor.

Of course, as an instructor, it's his or her responsibility to know this stuff... so calling it an "honest mistake" is quite right either.

Needs proofreading, Ryan.

The plain fact is that it shouldn't happen, EVER, and there ARE instructors that have taught long enough and often enough to prove it's not just theoretically possible, but very realistic to EXPECT it of "our" instructors.

I know EXACTYL what to expect of "our"...

Eric Hinrichs - 2016/04/08 00:38:45 UTC

As Ryan V, I'm feeling the need to speak up on this sad subject, especially because a lot of patently false information is being presented.
I'll address just a few.

Lin Lyons - 2016/04/07 03:29:57 UTC

They have been towing pilots there for decades, with a pretty good safety record. It is true that I had a parachute deployment, but it was my mistake, not theirs.

False, false, and false.
Not sure where you get your information or ideas.

I was working for Pat when he started his tow out there, and was his main guinea pig when setting it up. It wasn't decades ago.
The safety record is very questionable being that we hear about major problems fairly frequently. I can guarantee that there are many other issues and incidents that most of us never hear about.
You were under paid instruction when your accident occurred, why would it be all your fault? I was at the club meeting when Pat showed us what went wrong, and it made me sick hearing him put all the blame on you.

gluesniffer - 2016/04/07 23:26:27 UTC

I formulated my opinion based on observing mission's program. Obviously something wrong happened and we need to learn from this accident. So far nobody knows chit. But the school is run in a professional manner.

False
Is it professional to charge someone, then not deliver the product?
Is it optimal to pass students back and forth between lots of instructors?
Maybe you should talk with more of his former students and the general flying community. Or maybe with some of the instructors that have worked with him.
Yes, hgflyer, slopeskimmer, and I all have issues with how Pat does business and his "professionalism," but then again all of us have worked for him and have been frustrated with many of his approaches to business, teaching, and free flight in general.

http://www.ozreport.com/9.133
Lesson from an aerotow accident report

USHGA Accident Report Summary
Pilot: Holly Korzilius
Reporter: Steve Wendt, USHGA Instructor # 19528
Date : 5/29/05

Summary: I observed the accident from a few hundred yards away, but could clearly see launch and the aero tow was coming towards my area so that I had a full view of the flight. I was at the wreckage in a few seconds and afterwards gathered the information that helps understand the results of some unfortunate poor decisions of the injured pilot.

The pilot launched at 12:15 while conditions were just starting to become thermally, with just a slight crosswind of maybe 20 degrees with winds of 8 to 12 mph NNW. The pilot had flown here via AT more than 50 times.

Holly immediately had control problems right off the dolly and completed 3 oscilations before it took her 90 degrees from the tow vehicle upon when the tug pilot hit the release and Holly continued turning away from the tow in a fairly violent exchange of force . Holly pulled in to have control speed and then began rounding out , but there was not enough altitude and she hit the ground before she could do so. She was barely 100 feet when she was locked out in a left hand turn. At that time, she was banked up over 60 degrees.

The basebar hit the ground first, nose wires failed from the impact, and at the same time she was hitting face first. She had a full face helmet, which helped reduce her facial injuries but could not totallly prevent them. The gliders wings were level with the ground when it made contact with the ground.

First aid was available quickly and EMT response was appropriate .

Now, why did Holly not have control? Holly has two gliders, a Moyes Sonic, and the Moyes Litesport that she was flying during the accident. She has flown here in much stronger conditions before. and has always flown safely , on both of her gliders, but usually chooses her Sonic if air is questionable, or if she hasn't flown in a while.

Holly for some reason chose to fly her Litesport, she has always towed it with proper releases and weak links and usually seeked advice from me when unsure of something.

This time she couldn't find her v-bridle top line with her weak link installed for her priimary keel release. She chose to tow anyway, and just go from the shoulders, which to my knowledge she had never done before, nor had she been trained to understand potential problems. This could have been done with a short clinic and if we thought it a possibility, been done under supervised conditions in the evening air. Our dollys have check lists for many things, one is that you have a proper weak link installed. She had no weak link as it was normally on the upper line that she couldn't find, and we can only assume that she didn't even consider the fact that she now didn't have a weak link.

These mistakes caused her to have too much bar pressure, farther in bar position, she was cross controlling, and had no weak link. She hadn't flown that glider in a while and changed these towing aspects that I believe all combined to make a violant combination. The pilot also stayed on tow too long. She should have released after the first, or even the second oscilation when she realized that things were not correct. Failing to do so put the glider in a locked out situation that she could no longer control.

...instructors.

But- since no one seems to be angry with the student for steering poorly... I'd like to suggest we also shouldn't get too angry with the instructor for appearantly teaching poorly- for the same reason.

1. The student's SUPPOSED TO BE steering poorly. If he wasn't steering poorly he wouldn't be a student. The instructor's getting paid to teach him to steer not poorly and keep him from getting into serious trouble while he's doing that other part of his job.

2. The instructor deserves shit. He hasn't identified himself, apologized for doing a crappy job and endangering his student's life, given us an open report of what was going on at his end, told us what he's planning on doing differently in the future to achieve different results. He's behaving like a criminal - same as Pat - and deserves to be treated as a criminal - same as Pat.

Maybe we need to face it that the Instructor Training Program (ITP) is deficient in adequately preparing individuals for the overwhelming challenges in teaching humans to aviate.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25321
Stop the Stupids at the USHPA BOD meeting

Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/29 02:26:23 UTC

We can establish rules which we think will improve pilot safety, but our attorney is right. USHPA is not in the business of keeping pilots "safe" and it can't be. Stepping into that morass is a recipe for extinction of our association. I wish it were not so, but it is. We don't sell equipment, we don't offer instruction, and we don't assure pilots that they'll be safe.

So what do we expect?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

NMERider - 2016/04/15 17:29:00 UTC

I indicated that it was a cynical viewpoint and added the roll-eyes smiley but bills arrive in the mail and they come due and financial pressures can mount on instructors. Pressure from sources other than the pressure to place safety above all else is a problem.

Students feel pressure to catch up to their expectations of where they want to be or think they should be and may push themselves too far. I've seen it and I've seen the X-Rays, MRIs, casts, pins and so forth. Hang 4 pilots feel pressure from inside to have a flight that meets their expectations or desires and meet with the same or worse fate as the H1 student.

Hang gliding is recreation. It's the antithesis of pressure yet there are all these pressures...

Towline the most prominent amongst them.

...that enter into the sport from the ground up and the ionosphere down and we have accidents that were avoidable.

Then they weren't accidents.

The pilot...

STUDENT.

...who drifted off to his right under tow and piled-in was cursing all the way.

What do you figure Nancy was doing in the video we're never gonna get to see?

I never heard him mutter anything constructive to himself like, "Get that nose down!" or "Pull to the left!"...

If he didn't know how to stay in position on tow what makes you think he knew how to get back into position after departing from it. He wasn't qualified for Hang One towing skills but we should expect him to be able to compensate by executing Hang Two towing skills? He overshot the primary Happy Acres putting green so he should be able to park safely in the secondary narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place?

...or "Release!!".

Here's Davis Dead-On Straub not releasing...




...with TWO Industry Standard releases within extremely easy reach - and he's been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who. Those are Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey designed releases and Davis is very happy with them so what's the problem?

You think Tyler would've had as much reluctance to release if he'd been equipped like:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2925/14120899757_3f3e59d05c_o.png


http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5530/14120804830_2aabd74d25_o.png

What's the reason he WASN'T equipped like that? That training flight undoubtedly cost more than one of those - and that's without an injury requiring treatment.

Now there's a student who maybe should have been dismissed from his lessons and advised to seek recreation in some other form.

But the "instructor" did fine. No reason to consider dismissing him from selling lessons and advising him to teach checkers instead.

We have dealt with a few of these cases at Crestline.

How do you know he's one of "THESE" cases? We don't know anything about his background. All we know for sure is that he had no clue how to turn a glider and that his instructor totally sucked. We can know to an absolute certainty just by looking at any single frame from that video that his instructor totally sucked. And Tyler here is showing considerable character in comparison to most of the dregs who infest this sport just by virtue of having posted this video - which is no advertisement of his aviation prowess - and leaving it up for this past year and two thirds.

One student pilot drove chase for me and DbyD on an epic Sport 2 155 X/C race we did eons ago. I'm not sure how many bones he went on to break but it took some convincing to talk him out of free-flight as a form of recreation.

Who signed him off for the environments and conditions in which he was breaking many bones? When an instructor puts his signature on a card isn't he saying that his student can safely operate in more advanced and hazardous environments and situations?

Hang gliding may not be for everyone.

Definitely not for any of the thirteen US individuals who've been snuffed since Kelly Harrison's driver started rolling at Jean Lake last spring - one of them a Navy fighter pilot instructor. But there don't seem to be any records of people advising them to pursue other recreational activities before the option was taken off the table. And nobody's even saying anything along those lines after the fact.

I don't instruct...

Yeah ya do. All of us who post on flying issues are serving in instructional capacities. And a lot of us are posting to help compensate for the shit jobs that the paid instructors are doing.

...but I sure do observe and I see people who get it and catch on quick...

The ones who don't really need instructors.

...and I see people who just don't ever seem to get it.

The ones who do really need instructors.

There comes a point at which people may need to be cut loose.

Yeah. Let's cut Tyler loose based upon that one video he posted of one 39 second flight. Mel Torres on the other hand...

46-45901
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2937/14081080220_373f64f01d_o.png


Just needs to work on his flare timing a bit more. Wanna see the video of the entire flight?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3nnTrBJEdI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3nnTrBJEdI

There's no shame in that.

No shame in much of anything for the participants in this sport.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Davis Straub - 2016/04/15 17:59:07 UTC

Seems to me that keeping a student back would be a bigger money maker.

Seems to ALL instructors that keeping student back are bigger money makers. How else would you explain upright only harnesses, spot landing, requirements, Stephan being restarted at Hang Zero level on Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt's scooter tow after hundreds of aerotows?

Wouldn't have to pay for a broken down tube at least.

Don't most of these instructors also sell downtubes?

Perhaps we should ask successful instructors what makes more economic sense.

Yeah, let's ask Pat Denevan - owner of the school that all the Jack Show douchebags were recommending for Bay Area prospective students right after Lin's little Tres Pinos adventure.

2016/04/15 21:25:24 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay

Get fucked, Christopher.

Brad Barkley - 2016/04/15 18:18:23 UTC

I think one gaping loophole that needs to be closed immediately is the fact that someone can get a Basic Instructor appointment by learning to teach on the training hill, then run out and buy a scooter and start yanking people into the air.

Oh. That's the big loophole we need to close right now. Don't really need to worry about universal flagrant violations of existing hook-in check, release, weak link regulations.

We had just such a case in Pennsylvania last year, with an instructor who was very lucky not to kill someone.

A lot luckier than Pat was two Sundays ago. Also a lot luckier than Pat's been in recent times in not demolishing anyone...

http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1483/26207707785_6ae87e9ddd_o.jpg


...or having emergency low altitude parachute deployments.

If Tandem Instruction is a separate and distinct appointment...

http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5788/23461251751_e98b9c7500_o.png

...then Scooter Tow Instructor should be too.

Fuck yeah. We only want the best of the best doing this shit.

1. Pat Denevan wasn't using a scooter tow system when he killed Nancy and almost killed Lin.

2. Pat's pulled about a billion gliders up on his stationary winch system. Are you saying that Nancy was needlessly killed because he was missing a couple of letters on his card and/or was violating some u$hPa SOPs covering equipment and operations?

2016/04/15 21:25:48 UTC - 3 thumbs up Christopher LeFay

Get fucked, Christopher.

Dave Pendzick - 2016/04/15 18:52:36 UTC

He obviously had sense enough to recognize something was wrong...

Ya think? Ya think that's why he was making multiple stabs at:

10-02226
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3906/14877769980_78ff2fbd6e_o.png

...yet did nothing to save himself.

Fuck you. He DID...

34-03715
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5594/14877659539_4d1333c6a3_o.png


...save himself. He walked away and was up on tandem instruction the next day. Wanna talk about someone who did nothing to save himself talk about Kelly Harrison who was killed instantly along with his eleven year old tandem "student" after a four hundred foot plummet with his parachute neatly stowed in his container the whole time.

This begs the question did he know what to do & was it practiced or just explained?

Doesn't beg any question from me. He very obviously didn't slam in 'cause he knew what to do and how to do it but chose not to because risk was part of his attraction to the sport.

Even if it was explained & practiced I feel this is too much for a new H1 student to be expected to manage...

What indication do you have that this was a new H1 student?

...which further bolsters my standpoint that towing, in any form, is an advanced skill.

Who gives a rat's ass about your standpoint? You're a total moron. I've got a shitload of towing under my belt and I can tell you that it's got zilch in the way of "SKILL" requirement. A ten year old kid sinking a basketball layup is exercising a hundred times the skill it takes to fly a stupid hang glider up/down/left/right. I had the skill to do that on Day One on the fuckin' dunes.

Even low & slow scooter towing, which really does not accomplish much from a learning standpoint.

How deep up your ass did you need to reach before pulling that statement out?

It is completely artificial...

I got news for ya, dickhead. Human flight is completely artificial. It's something that we've only been able to do within the last blink of an eye of human evolution.

...& resembles nothing close to launching or flying the hang glider.

'Cause flying a glider for three hours after you've towed up in Texas is NOTHING like flying a glider for three hours after you've run off the cliff at Torrey or the ramp at Kagel. That's because it's an ADVANCED SKILL and thus requires masterful rudimentary skill to do really right.

Its exciting for the student & gets them in the air...

Multiplying him on the process.

...but what does it actually teach?

Everything they needs to know - as long as it's conducted in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place.

Landing repetition maybe???

Definitely. They very obviously aren't using it for turning repetition.

How much more or less efficient would landing repetition be a the training hill or sand dune?

Much more efficient - since it's so much easier to carry a glider up a steep hundred foot slope than it is to carry it on flat ground or plop it on a cart and get a shuttle ride back to launch position.

I just don't get why we are having new students learn to tow...

Really? Me neither. 'Specially when California is so conveniently located to all the population centers that don't have dunes, hills, mountains within half hour drives.

2016/04/15 20:11:44 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Michael Grisham

Fuckin' lunatics.

Davis Straub - 2016/04/15 18:57:42 UTC

...towing, in any form, is an advanced skill...

On the part of the instructor, for sure.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9655904048_89cce6423a_o.png


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

Where's your data on that Davis? Who says there's more skill involved in putting someone on a rope and pulling him off a Happy Acres putting green in sled conditions and setting him back down if he starts getting in trouble? Isn't it just because it's a lot harder to blame a training crash all on the student on a tow flight than it is to blame everything on a free flying training hill student?

It has been very amply illustrated that this is not true for the student.

2016/04/15 20:49:43 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Don Arsenault

So we're saying that Dave is totally full o' shit?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Michael Grisham - 2016/04/15 19:28:57 UTC

Fundamentals of Instruction (FOI)
Aviation Instructor's Handbook

Introduction

This chapter discusses human behavior and how it affects the learning process. Learning is the acquisition of knowledge or understanding of a subject or skill through education, experience, practice, or study. A change of behavior results from learning. To successfully bring about learning, the instructor must know why people act the way they do, how people learn, and then use this understanding to teach. The study of applied educational psychology underlies the information and theories that are discussed. To be an effective instructor, knowledge of human behavior, basic human needs, the defense mechanisms humans use that prevent learning, as well as how adults learn is essential for organizing student activities and promoting a productive learning experience for student.

What is imperative is the new student (H0,H1,H2) establishes a base line of the fundamental skills first and foremost before moving to more advanced tasks. Those basic fundamental skills are takeoff, landing, and controlled flight in the simplest form, the training hill.

Davis Straub - 2016/04/14 11:56:54 UTC

One of the coolest aspects of low and slow scooter towing is all the practice that you get landing. Over and over again without tiring yourself out.

The problem with scooter towing for the new student is the repetitious nose high attitude takeoff practice becomes an ingrained habit. Ten years later the student will be on a cliff launch and the nose high attitude will be so ingrained it will take continuous conscious effort to keep the nose down, an un-natural act.

I have seen this in the best trained pilots in the world, Naval Aviators. When they are fatigued, tired, stressed, or in an emergency, they land as if they are landing on the boat, because that is what they were trained to do, which means it will be a firm landing, repetition and intensity. And a firm landing is not always appropriate especially if you the pilot are also the landing gear.

It is truly about the Fundamentals of Instruction shared by your friendly FAA.

What is imperative is the new student (H0,H1,H2) establishes a base line of the fundamental skills first and foremost before moving to more advanced tasks.

And we've already established that towing is a highly advanced task by saying it over and over and over and going nuts on the three Blood Bath period tow fatal crashes - all of which were precipitated by massive and deliberate negligence and incompetence - while totally ignoring the seven fatals that resulted from the hazards of mountain flying. Also totally ignoring the fact that the convenience of tow launching allows us to get twenty tow flights off in the time and for the expenditure it takes to do one mountain.

Those basic fundamental skills are takeoff, landing, and controlled flight in the simplest form, the training hill.

So much SIMPLER it is to balance the glider on your shoulders; check the wind; walk, jog, run; maintain balance; adjust pitch; shift from grapevine to bottle to basetube; prone out than it is to lie down on a cart and say "Go."

The problem with scooter towing for the new student is the repetitious nose high attitude takeoff practice becomes an ingrained habit.

Fuck yeah! This is a well documented problem. When scooter tow graduates start showing up on the slopes they're always pointing their noses way the fuck up and groundlooping back into the hillside. Absolute carnage. Oughta be a crime.

Ten years later...

Or sometimes ten years later.

...the student...

And he'll still be a student. The kinds a people who choose the scooter route are GLACIALLY slow learners.

...will be on a cliff launch...

I have no fuckin' clue why they even allow these scooter tow students NEAR cliff launches. I wouldn't even want one on crew. That's how stupid they are.

...and the nose high attitude will be so ingrained it will take continuous conscious effort to keep the nose down, an un-natural...

...and, to them, perverted...

...act.

You can always tell the scooter people at cliff launches. They're the ones with their noses up an extra ten degrees. The hill people are the ones who do all their cliff launches flawlessly. (Which makes ya wonder a bit about Karen Carra 'cause when she got into the sport scooter didn't really exist and it was all training hill and dune for students.)

I have seen this in the best trained pilots in the world, Naval Aviators.

Best trained by trainers like Trey Higgins - who died ten months ago scratching too close to the slope.

When they are fatigued, tired, stressed, or in an emergency, they land as if they are landing on the boat...

FUCK THAT! Everybody knows that when you're fatigued, tired, stressed, or in an emergency you wanna aim for the old Frisbee in the middle of the runway. You wanna land with as much runway behind you as possible to minimize the danger of clipping the fence off the downwind end.

...because that is what they were trained to do, which means it will be a firm landing...

I really hate those firm landings. They all tend to be really firm.

...repetition and intensity.

Keep saying the same moronic crap often and loud enough and people will believe ANYTHING.

And a firm landing is not always appropriate especially if you the pilot are also the landing gear.

I toldya I hated firm landings. They're not always appropriate - especially when I'm the pilot are also the landing gear. We need to get some of these Naval Aviators into twelve step programs to get them to stop doing firm landings they're fatigued, tired, stressed, or in emergencies. 'Specially when they're in hang gliders aiming for old Frisbees in the middles of LZs and using their legs to stop.

Fuckin' Naval Aviator about to land very firmly with himself as the landing gear:

http://forum.hanggliding.org/download/file.php?id=18967


You can spot 'em a mile away.

It is truly about the Fundamentals of Instruction shared by your friendly FAA.

Notice how all the experts on why towing is dangerous are total lunatic assholes who've never towed or been anywhere around towing and have no fuckin' clues what they're talking about?

And, of course, on The Jack Show this anti tow lunacy is perfectly OK. What gets you attacked and banned is saying that towing could be done better than it is under Flight Park Mafia control.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Glenn Zapien - 2016/04/15 19:54:37 UTC

No two students are exactly the same, results will always vary by student. I have towed on underpowered scooters, and scooters that felt like I left my shoes behind pitch up powerful. It is not a beginner skillset. I also towed at MSC, any crosswind out there requires the forethought to compensate for that during tow out there. Like a car with bad alignment if you don't stay on course they would cut power and you would have to start over. I think remaining vigilant and reducing complacency especially for the larger schools with lots of students towing in a day can easily and unintentionally get lost in the repetition. I helped MSC with the towing rig knock out 87 tows in one day. Couple pilots did get the release set up wrong. It was my job to make sure it was right that day. Stay at attention. Ever see a security guard sleeping before?

No two students are exactly the same, results will always vary by student.

How unfortunate. 'Cause the issues of physics involved in flying are all EXACTLY the same and require exactly the same understandings and executions.

I have towed on underpowered scooters...

Why? Isn't underpowered...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

Which brings us to the reason to have a 914 in the first place... you need one.
Something made you get a 914 instead of a 582. 914s are horribly expensive to own and maintain. If you own one, you need it... it's a safety thing.

..a synonym for unsafe/dangerous? Wouldn't an underpowered scooter leave you wallowing around in the kill zone an inordinate length of time?

...and scooters that felt like I left my shoes behind pitch up powerful.

I thought the whole idea of scooter towing was that you could make fine adjustments in power as required to adjust to what was going on with the student and his glider. Are you saying that if a scooter is capable of delivering a lot of power you've gotta use it?

It is not a beginner skillset.

1. Of course it's not. You just told us it isn't. And you've cited the proof that you've towed on underpowered scooters and scooters that felt like I left my shoes behind pitch up powerful. What more proof could we possibly need? Totally undermines any evidence provided by the tens of thousands of beginner tows that Steve Wendt has done at Manquin.

2. But foot landing, of course...

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

...is. Nothing else really matters until that flare timing is perfected.

I also towed at MSC, any crosswind out there requires the forethought to compensate for that during tow out there.

1. Oh. You hafta think about what you're gonna be doing before you get airborne. Bummer.

2. Yeah. ANY crosswind OUT THERE is a beast much different from the ones one encounters elsewhere so it requires the forethought to compensate for that during tow OUT THERE. NOT during tow the crosswind is less of an issue.

3. On hill, mountain, cliff launches, of course, crosswinds are total nonissues.

4. You don't compensate for a crosswind DURING a tow OUT THERE - asshole. You compensate for a crosswind either by adjusting your launch point relative to what's pulling you or, if the runway's too constrained, executing a crosswind launch - which means getting airborne with speed and keeping your wings level. Once you're safely airborne a crosswind becomes a nonissue. You just keep the glider level and allow it to drift to straight downwind of whatever's pulling you.

Like a car with bad alignment if you don't stay on course they would cut power and you would have to start over.

Yes. That sentence makes perfect sense.

Like a car with bad alignment...

Ya know what's like a car with bad alignment? A glider with a turn that hasn't been or can't be tuned out of it. So why is Mission towing students on gliders with turns?

...if you don't stay on course they would cut power...

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...
Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

....and you would have to start over.

Oh. So you're saying that a student on a glider with such a bad turn in it that the student is unable to stay lined up properly downwind of the pulley is dumped so that he has to start over and that fixes the problem.

What you're actually saying in your semiliterate deranged fashion is that these total fucking morons OUT THERE are telling people to crab into the crosswind to stay lined up with the runway. Like what John Woiwode did 2005/07/07 just before he was ninety percent killed and permanently horribly mangled. And Mission punishes the students who are doing it right by chopping their power and forcing landings. Big fuckin' surprise.

I think remaining vigilant and reducing complacency especially for the larger schools with lots of students towing in a day can easily and unintentionally get lost in the repetition.

And here I was thinking that you get BETTER at doing what you're doing with practice, repetition.

http://www.hang-gliding.com

Why Mission

Pat Denevan and his instructors at Mission Soaring Center have been teaching hang gliding for more than 40 years. Pat is a leader in the hang gliding community - he has been instrumental in developing the teaching standards for the USHPA.

Neither Pat Denevan nor any of his instructors at Mission Soaring Center has been teaching hang gliding for more than six months. Virtually no one in the hang gliding community has ever heard of Pat and he's totally unaware of any teaching standards of the USHPA. Consequently he's the most vigilant and least complacent instructor of anyone currently qualified.

I helped MSC with the towing rig knock out 87 tows in one day.

Did that include relights for students dumped at 150 feet for not crabbing into the crosswind?

Couple pilots did get the release set up wrong.

Thank you so very much for telling us that Mission knew there was a problem with students connecting three-strings before 2013/06/15. Adds a whole new dimension to:

Eric Hinrichs - 2016/04/08 00:38:45 UTC

You were under paid instruction when your accident occurred, why would it be all your fault? I was at the club meeting when Pat showed us what went wrong, and it made me sick hearing him put all the blame on you.

It was my job to make sure it was right that day.

Whose job was it on 2013/06/15?

Stay at attention. Ever see a security guard sleeping before?

Thanks for the advice, Glenn. I have a really strong tendency to dope off whenever I'm doing foot launched winch tows - 'specially below two hundred feet. I'll try to remember to be careful out there out there as well. 'Specially with that special crosswind they've got out there - and the special tow operators out there telling people to Woiwode into it.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

NMERider - 2016/04/15 20:41:34 UTC

Michael Grisham - 2016/04/15 19:28:57 UTC

The problem with scooter towing for the new student is the repetitious nose high attitude takeoff practice becomes an ingrained habit...

This phenomenon resulted in the death of an acquaintance of mine who mainly did scooter towing in Ohio.

Chris Thale - On 2009/11/27.

He was out at Crestline while in the area on business and walked up to the ramp with his nose up in the scooter tow position and got lifted sideways off the ramp. He got lucky and flew away. The same thing...

Not the same thing at all.

...happened again at a much less forgiving place.

Read Eastern. One of the many troubles with hang gliding is that the power base is in California which is where the launches are all mountain and tend to be forgiving and the airtime in general and thermal time in particular is a lot easier to rack up.

It may have been Henson's Gap.

It was. 'Cept the place is Henson Gap.

It was fatal.

This is rubbish. There is no scooter tow nose position. Assuming no wind you start with the same pitch you would for any no wind foot launch. It's only when tension is ramped up and airspeed is attained that the glider will adjust/trim/pitch up. You don't stand there (assuming you're hooked in) holding your nose up.

AT dolly launch the glider is set on the cart with the nose a bit high. As it gets up to speed the glider trims nose down. You come off the cart at a low angle of attack then climb with a low angle of attack but high pitch attitude until the Rooney Link increase the safety of the towing operation and you benefit from an inconvenience stall.

A formerly active Org member was not only a first responder but was requested by the sheriff to review the keel-mounted video of the grizzly event.

Here's the account of his last attempt to aviate:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14608
Another HG death.

Nibs - 2009/11/28 14:41:46 UTC
Atlanta

I did not see Chris Thale launch but talked to almost everyone who did. I was told his nose was too high and that he was six feet behind the red line when he yelled clear and began his launch. I was also told he was instructed to lower his nose several times. Immediately after clearing his wire crew, his left wing began to drop and right wing raised, this continued as he went down the ramp. When he hit the vertical airflow at the edge of the ramp where the red line is, his nose popped up even higher and the glider entered into a 180 degree turn to the left back toward the cliff face. He impacted the rock cliff face straight on, then the glider dropped nose-down to the ledge about 75 feet below.

Wanna see a reasonable facsimile on a similar ramp not too far away?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuSHh0nmKkQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuSHh0nmKkQ

07-1412
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3900/14557433291_0d22597fd6_o.png

11-1513
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2926/14374222698_ed4d1c396d_o.png


It was a totally fucked up launch and Chris's crew doesn't get any awards for keeping things under control either.

Mountain foot launches are complex, demanding, and DANGEROUS and it's total rot to suggest that learning to fly through towing is a factor making them more so. Angle of attack is angle of attack no matter where you are or...

28-04208
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1551/25962165725_29efd47b80_o.png


...what you're doing. This pitch attitude:

04-0628
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1506/26333182002_015c4ab16c_o.png


is just fine for the training hill or a scooter tow launch. But it's gonna get you killed at a ramp with a steep drop-off and the wind blasting UP.

10-30301
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8045/29317212532_45d7f2e054_o.png

Davis Straub - 2016/04/12 00:23:34 UTC

All students at Blue Sky learn first using the low and slow method with the small scooter tow. Later students are taken to a hill side to learn to launch on a hill.

As opposed to being taken to a hillside to learn to land on a hill.

Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt is supposed to be the greatest thing in hang gliding since sliced bread and to say otherwise is heresy. So how come he isn't reporting incidents arising from this alleged issue and it isn't addressed in the Blue Sky / Wills Wing scooter tow video?

If this bullshit about scooter tow trained pilots instinctively setting their noses too high at mountain launches has any legitimacy then shouldn't we be seeing hill trained pilots diving into the ground when they go to foot launch tow?

If you can't figure out where the fuck to point your nose at launch based on what the air is doing then either don't fly or stick to towing - preferably dolly or platform launch.

Nothing drives an active pilot out of the sport like being there when pilots get killed.

Why? They die doing what they love and this is the way all of us wanna check outta this world and reunite with our previously departed friends in that endless thermal beyond.

It doesn't just drive people who were there out of the sport. It also drives people who knew and liked them out of the sport. And we can't measure the effect 'cause what happens is that flying becomes less fun for them so they don't do it as much and then just quietly disappear from the sport without anybody really noticing. When Chad got killed down at Quest flying for me for a long time afterwards went from being fun to something I needed to make myself do.

I know one pilot who was present during the deaths of three different pilots he knew all in the space of a year or so.

Remind me to keep him off my crew.

I know several pilots who were first responders for some ugly looking fatal accidents and it really takes a toll.

Ugly looking hang gliding accidents are different. It makes the sport more attractive to us by highlighting the risk.

Enough grizzly talk.

Not many fatal accidents more ugly looking than the bear attack jobs. Stay the hell away from those cubs no matter how cute they are.

This is National Individual Tax Deadline Day in the U.S. And we all know there are three certainties in life:
Death, Taxes and The Speed of Light

Four. Hang gliding will never be fixable...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=2437
Letter of Resignation

Rodger Hoyt - 2016/04/15 07:43:26 UTC

In what is probably the shortest tenure of any office holder in any realm, I herewith resign from the US Hawks Board of Directors. Please delete me from future correspondence. This may be beneficial for voting purposes as it provides an odd number of BOD members to preclude possible tie votes. Thanks guys, it's not you, it's me. I have come to despise what hang gliding has become and I don't think it's possible to change it. I want to retire from the sport with a few pleasant memories remaining. Good luck in your endeavors.

...because of the kinds of dregs it attracts and puts in control.

Let's talk about the something light.

Not until we actually address the actual issues that got Nancy killed two weeks ago.

Christopher LeFay - 2016/04/15 21:30:27 UTC

New to solo airtowing, I have experienced the inverse- habitually pulling in when coming off of the cart. Unlike a new student, I'm sufficiently self-possessed to consciously correct the reflex after receiving corrective instruction.

I find your sufficient self-possession to be truly awe inspiring. If only there were many more like you we'd have many fewer new AT students pulling in just off the cart and flying into the ground.

Christopher LeFay - 2016/04/15 21:38:16 UTC

The level of focus required to safely operate a scooter is only periodically sustainable. While some have much greater capacity, I reckon that high number is beyond the limits of the operator in our club.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. After all, the operator in your club tolerates having you in your club.

What do you say, Glenn- is 87 a reasonable number?

Yes. It's only as you get to 88 that things start becoming a bit unreasonable.

I really can't say, as I would just be speaking from my own limitations.

We've noticed.

Christopher LeFay - 2016/04/15 21:41:18 UTC

Ryan Voight - 2016/04/15 16:46:17 UTC

But- since no one seems to be angry with the student for steering poorly... I'd like to suggest we also shouldn't get too angry with the instructor for appearantly teaching poorly- for the same reason. Maybe we need to face it that the Instructor Training Program (ITP) is deficient in adequately preparing individuals for the overwhelming challenges in teaching humans to aviate.

Sounds familiar.

Christopher LeFay - 2016/04/13 17:26:10 UTC

A very caring-yet-less-than-competent instructor recently impressed on me that SOP's and ethos are like down tubes without a base bar. Authoritative education of instructors is that missing element. A conscientious instructor closely adhering to SOP's is a danger without the comprehensive knowledge and experience provided by expert training.

1. How would you know? Where's the data or anecdotal evidence to support that statement? Hang gliding ain't rocket science and most of the people who belong in it don't need instructors for much of anything.

2. Name one:
- foot launch instructor who makes any pretense of adhering to u$hPa's hook-in check SOP
- AT instructor who makes any pretense of adhering u$hPa AT SOPs

Glenn Zapien - 2016/04/15 22:02:22 UTC

It was continuous, conditions were very good, pretty sure the number wasn't intentional. Do I think that is a high number for one rig? Yes... that being said, everything flowed, everyone worked together. Having seen and done it over the years, I would not want to repeat that.

Having listened to your incoherent babbling on hang gliding and other issues over the years I wouldn't want you to.

2016/04/15 22:19:00 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay

Get fucked, Christopher.

Takeo77 - 2016/04/15 23:12:42 UTC

My experience there as well. On a good day it was like launching jets off an Aircraft carrier. ALSO as others have said it wrecked my hill launch technique which bit me hard when I moved from a single to double surface.

But you were still OK launching singe surface.

I don't blame my instructors as PIC I am ultimately responsible...

Like Nancy was two weeks ago. So let's focus all of our blame on her and ease off on Pat.

...however recurring training and mutual support in terms of maintaining good technique is something that would be good for everyone (to be fair, in the Bay Area community I have had this support given to me freely by instructors such as JS, RB, EH and friends such as CC that have gone a long way towards help me identify and solve my problems).

Great! I'll be sure to refer people looking for instruction in the Bay Area to instructors such as JS, RB, EH and friends such as CC to help them identify and solve their problems.

Glenn Zapien - 2016/04/16 01:33:00 UTC

It takes a village...

Wow. That's very profound. Somebody please give that three thumbs up.

2016/04/16 03:02:19 UTC -3 thumbs up - Glenn Zapien

Thanks Christopher. I knew we could count on you.

Ryan Voight - 2016/04/16 04:15:49 UTC

It almost sounds like the lack of negative outcome here is excusing the behavior?

You mean the lack of negative outcome for Davis flying the Davis Link...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

...negates all the ungodly carnage it's caused over the decades it's had establishing its looooong track record?

I know you said you wouldn't want to do it again... but that's different than saying it was wrong, and should not happen like that, right?

How many tows do you think Pat ran two weeks ago before killing Nancy with his standard junk procedures and equipment?

When you say a couple pilots did get the release set up wrong... and it was your job to check it... does that mean you caught the problems, or that a couple pilots with release problems slipped past you?

Who gives a flying fuck? It was a smoking gun statement proving that Mission knew it had a potentially deadly problem with its releases and clients that it did nothing to address before almost killing Lin and addressed by swapping in known deadly crap after. And for all we know - and quite possibly for all anyone will ever know - Nancy was killed by this very same issue.

Glenn Zapien - 2016/04/16 04:44:35 UTC

There was a mixed bag of pilots at different levels of skill. The release they used at the time was not a barrel or trigger release.

Thanks bigtime for giving us vague ideas what the release they were using at the time WASN'T, Glenn.

The style being used worked fine...

Name some STYLES being used that DON'T work fine - just as long as you're not in a situation in which you NEED them to work fine.

...but hooking the line to the release had a possibility of attaching it wrong and being unable to release.

Note the conspicuous dodging of reference to the Lin Lyons incident. He's realized the strategic blunder he's made.

Towing would be stressful for me to be at the controls.

And the dodging of the question.

Bad enough on the training hill.I want them to have fun, and I try to keep it simple approach .

And the way his writing gets even worse than usual.

Doing that many tows was efficiency and teamwork. I was happy to just chase the line and bring it to the next Pilot to launch. Learned alot about towing. It's not something of a one instructor activity. I'm sure it has its purpose, but not a must for me.

Thank you, Glenn. You've helped us tremendously.