Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34390
Tragedy at 2016 Quest Air Open

Raymond Caux - 2016/05/27 07:31:17 UTC

What about this one:
http://www.getoffrelease.com/
Not hand-free, but you can keep the hands on the bar...

Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.

Bill Reynolds - 2016/05/27 08:45:52 UTC

My review of the LMFP release from several years ago linked below, I had the same oncern about taking my hand off th control bar when your attitude is already compromised, I think it is an excellent solution.

- What did you think about THIS:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction

review of the LMFP release from several years ago?

- Oh. You had the same oncern about taking your hand off th control bar when your attitude is already compromised? This wasn't covered by your instructor when you got your AT signoff or discussed in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden?

- If it's such a fucking excellent solution then why:

-- did Lockout change the design from:

http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1558/25912821781_ced007a9d6_o.jpg


to:



without saying anything to the purchasers of 1.0?

-- was its use specifically excluded under the terms of Quavis's Quest Air Open Risk Mitigation Plan?

-- isn't anyone from Lockout promoting it in this discussion?

4X8 - 2016/05/27 15:53:23 UTC

I recently got checked out arrow towing...

You don't tow arrows. You shoot them from bows.

...and while looking into a release mechanism there was only one that seemed safe to me and that was the look-out mountain "tether pull". (not sure what the official name is.)

http://estore.hanglide.com/aerotow-equipment-primary-aerotow-release-loop-release/dp/590
Primary Aerotow Release, Loop Release

http://estore.hanglide.com/images/product/a/aerotow-release-primary-barrel.png


The loop release configuration is favored by some pilots becuase, you don't have to let go of the basetube to actuate the release

The hand brake lever system seemed arcane and dangerous...

Well yeah but...

http://estore.hanglide.com/aerotow-equipment-primary-aerotow-release-brake-lever-release/dp/1660
Primary Aerotow Release, Brake Lever Release

http://estore.hanglide.com/images/product/a/aerotow-primary-release-barrel-with-brake-lever.png


The brake lever release configuration is favored by some pilots becuase, due to the mechanical advantage of the lever, there is less release pressure when actuating the release.

the brake lever release configuration is favored by some pilots becuase, due to the mechanical advantage of the lever, there is less release pressure when actuating the release. And...

All release configurations are manufactured here by LMFP and the release tension is tested at varying pounds of tension

...the pounds of tension under which Jeff finally separated from the tug varied quite a bit - 54 percent over what the Lockout Release is rated for at this time.

So while Jeff would've favored the loop release configuration because he wouldn't have had to let go of the basetube to actuate the release he'd have needed the arcane and dangerous brake lever release configuration becuase, due to the mechanical advantage of the lever, there is less release pressure when actuating the release. So he'd have died either way. And that's with the Version 2.0's mechanism lever arm length more than doubled.

Just my opinion.

This isn't just my opinion. This is the manufacturer telling us Jeff is totally fucked either way in its advertising.

NMERider - 2016/05/27 18:14:28 UTC

Thanks Raymond,
The Get-Off release looks like it could be converted to a mouth release by reversing the type of spring.

THIS:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8312402264


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh3-uZptNw0


can be used without converting anything - 'cause it was DESIGNED to be used as a one point or secondary.

Raymond Crux - 2016/05/27 19:35:06 UTC

Thanks Jonathan,

And make fuckin' sure to not thank Tad for anything.

Actually I was more asking opinions about the trigger principle, this washer or monkey fist actuated by sliding the hand on the bar. But that is only for a V-bridle.

As opposed to...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306152861


...an S-bridle.

With a simple harness connection...

A SIMPLE harness connection - SIMPLE being a synonym for SUPERIOR.

...the trigger could be similar to the mouth release, but actuated by opening the thumb for example.

Get fucked.

Jeff Page - 2016/05/27 20:30:21 UTC

One glaring difference I see between the airline world (gazillions of hours flown between accidents) and hang gliding is standardization.
---
J Page - H2 - B767

We HAD standardization. We had the standardization of the focal point of our safe towing system like nothing else ever in the history of aviation.

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.

We applauded it. Davis assured us we did. But then we decided to trade safety for convenience, Davis decided he was...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Davis Straub - 2014/09/01 15:22:41 UTC

I can tell you that I fly with a 200lb weaklink on one side of my 750lb pro tow bridle. I am happy with it.

...happy with the...

02-00820c
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7252/27169646315_9af9a62298_o.png


...Tad-O-Link, and now...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

Hi Tormod.
Oh, not at all.
I think what you're picking up on is my lack of willingness to discuss this with people that have already made up their minds.
Sorry for that, but it's just the nature of the beast.

I have no issue with discussing this with people that don't have an agenda.
I get very short with people that do however.

Am I "certain" about anything?
Nope.
However, some things get real obvious when you're doing them all the time. One is that weaklinks do in fact save people's asses.
You're 100% onto it... relying on the skill of the pilot is a numbers game that you'll lose at some point.

I find that so many people do not appreciate how fast and furious lockouts can happen.
They're exponential in nature.
Twice the time doesn't equate to twice the "bad"... it's four times the "bad"... then 16... it gets dramatic fast.

Is a weaklink going to save your ass? Who knows? But it's nice to stack the deck in your favour.

Now flip the argument and you start to see the devil.
A glider can take a whole shitload more force than a weaklink can.
So, if you're of the "sole purpose" cult, then you see no issue with a LOT stronger weaklink.

Well, it won't take long with that system before we've got a lot more dead pilots out there.
So they can stuff their philosophical purity bs... cuz I have no desire to tow someone to their death, no matter how willing they may be.

I'm not playing with this stuff in my head and just dismissing it. There's been a lot that's gone into this system.

I've seen too many people walk the "strong link" road only to find out the reality of things.
Fortunately, they've been unscathed, but there have been a lot of soiled underpants in the process.

I'm happy to discuss this stuff.
But I'm sick to death of arguing about it.

...we have another dead pilot out there - just like Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney warned us we would have.

Davis Straub - 2016/05/27 20:56:16 UTC

Actually in aerotow competition we have standardized on a thin spectra protow bridle with a barrel release and a weaklink at the other end.

Well, we're all set then. How are things shaping up for Big Spring?

Having been at this for thirty years I've been in a position to influence that standardization.

Yeah.

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7447/26578855104_69f4705474_o.jpg


http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7077/27082298482_cda1aba01b_o.png

Keep up the great work.

Bruno Schnedl (rdufokker) - 2016/05/28 03:42:25 UTC
Charlotte

procedural standardization and emergency simulation seems to be where we need to improve.

Fuck you. We've got a proven system that works. Long track record. Davis has been at this for thirty years and in a position to influence that standardization. A thin spectra protow bridle with a barrel release and a weaklink at the other end. What more could you possibly want - asshole?

NMERider - 2016/05/28 06:30:30 UTC

The PGs I fly with regularly attend SIV clinics. They save lives.

As long as they have plenty of altitude.

What do we have in the HG world beside the infrequent reserve toss clinic?

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2015/03/03
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
11. Hang Gliding Special Skill Endorsements
-D. Aerotow

The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.

And productive discussions on The Jack Show in which people line up to suck Davis's dick.

Beside our sweet little imaginations...

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2016/04/07

A weak link connects the V-pull to the release, providing a safe limit on the tow force. If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

...that is.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/albums/72057594141352219
Aerotow Release System

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48122
Jeff Bohl remembered

Davis Straub - 2016/06/03 13:20:39 UTC

Services Friday and Saturday

Tiki Mashy

When we got home the pilots flocked to us, our hangar, some not even to fly, just to feel closer to the sport and Jeff.

Friday is the viewing and Saturday is the service. Bart and I and Jeff Kannard will attend both. I miss Jeffee terribly and I wish I had more answers. How a guy who has had engine flame outs in 767s. Landing a plane with full tanks, choosing to counter an air traffic controller's order in an emergency situation, having smoke in the cockpit and numerous other hair raising aviation incidents, couldn't save his own ass in a hang glider. My mind is having a hard time digesting this situation.

When we got home the pilots flocked to us, our hangar, some not even to fly, just to feel closer to the sport and Jeff.

The sport that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25321
Stop the Stupids at the USHPA BOD meeting

Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/29 02:26:23 UTC

We can establish rules which we think will improve pilot safety, but our attorney is right. USHPA is not in the business of keeping pilots "safe" and it can't be. Stepping into that morass is a recipe for extinction of our association. I wish it were not so, but it is. We don't sell equipment, we don't offer instruction, and we don't assure pilots that they'll be safe. Even so, we get sued periodically by people who say we "shoulda, coulda, woulda" done something that would have averted their accident.

It's not just concern for meet directors and policy makers...it's about our continued existence as an association. It's about minimizing the chance of our getting sued out of existence. We're one lawsuit away from that, all the time, and we think hard about it. I would LOVE to not have to think that way, but every time a legal threat arises, it reminds me that we have a very dysfunctional legal system in this country (note: not a "justice" system...there's little justice involved) and we have to recognize that reality and deal with it.

...slaughtered Jeff.

Friday is the viewing and Saturday is the service. Bart and I and Jeff Kannard will attend both.

Three individuals whose names haven't appeared in the postmortem discussion. Hope it doesn't cut too much into your time to tow other Houston area assholes up on total shit equipment.

I miss Jeffee terribly and I wish I had more answers.

Don't worry, bitch. We've got everything we need on this Golden Oldie - no thanks to any of you.

How a guy who has had engine flame outs in 767s.

- Looks like you've put a lot of thought into this post, Tiki. Really appreciate the effort.

- Engine flame-outs? Those are problems with 767s? With hang glider towing power failures on takeoff are inconveniences which increase the safety of the towing operations.

Landing a plane with full tanks, choosing to counter an air traffic controller's order in an emergency situation, having smoke in the cockpit and numerous other hair raising aviation incidents, couldn't save his own ass in a hang glider.

- Thought he could fix a bad thing and didn't wanna start over. Happens all the time to the best of us.

- He chose to take off with the equivalent of a smoking cockpit once too often because he'd never had a problem with a smoking cockpit before and couldn't be bothered to consider what had happened to previous assholes who'd taken off with smoking cockpits - like Zack Marzec at Quest a bit over three years prior.

My mind is having a hard time digesting this situation.

The total shit you have for a mind obviously has a hard time digesting that in Base Hang Gliding Arithmetic two minus one equals zero. Applies to stuff like sidewires, base/downtube junction pins, hands.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Richard Bryant - 2009/11/05 14:11:27 UTC

Tad,
I wonder if you did as much Highland bashing while you were a 'loyal' customer...or you displaying a cowardly nature by bashing after you were told you were no longer welcome there. If you acted there as you do here, perhaps they got tired of being told how to run their operation.
Just a guess but probably the trigger that got you booted is when you went to the FAA with your draft proposal for more regulation of the sport...yeah, that was a great idea on your part!

Bart Weghorst - 2009/11/09 18:34:13 UTC

Can anyone but Aerotow fill me in? This sounds serious. Was he heard by the FAA?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14312
Tow Park accidents

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/10 18:56:26 UTC

Speed is indeed a large factor, but even more so is acceleration.
This is what's missed when people think about the big engine dragonflies vs the little ones.

Bart Weghorst - 2009/11/10 19:40:34 UTC

I'd like to elaborate on one thing that Jim already mentioned...

Every good tug is geared and propped for max climb rate at towing speed.
Whether a 582 or a 914, the acceleration increases when the tug reaches this speed from a standstill. It is when it produces most thrust.
So this is why weaklinks tend to break most when the glider has just come out of the cart. The tug is getting close to towing speed.
Also, the same weaklinks break more with a 914. Just because of increased acceleration.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.

No stress because I was high.

Maybe he had more stress because he was low and in a situation when he needed his other hand to fly the glider.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hhpa/message/9360
Hook knives and other inventions

Zack C - 2010/02/03 21:07

Tad doesn't have a problem with the concept of barrel releases, but he says the one most commonly used (the 'Baily release') is poorly designed and can fail under high tensions (mainly because it uses a curved as opposed to straight pin).

I would agree that our safety record is much better than he makes it out to be. But there's still room for improvement.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Bart Weghorst - 2011/08/28 20:29:27 UTC

Now I don't give a shit about breaking strength anymore. I really don't care what the numbers are. I just want my weaklink to break every once in a while.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/10 22:58:21 UTC

I'm not bothered by straight pin releases.
I do think the strong link guys gravitate to them due to the higher release tensions that strong links can encounter.

Tad Eareckson - 2016/02/03 13:25:53 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34017
White peopling

Jim Gaar - 2016/02/03 12:43:49 UTC

Tiki Mashy in TX is AA and female! Great pilot and purveyor of all things hang gliding...

Fuck that useless goddam pin bending bitch.

You motherfuckers can rot in hell.

Rich Diamond - 2016/06/04 13:07:19 UTC

No words can even describe how we feel. Such a HUGE Loss for the HG Community local and nationwide.
I Will see you at the Service Today / Sat.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hhpa/message/11545
Question

Rich Diamond - 2010/11/06 14:38:53 UTC

Zack (mr moderator)
its replies like this from TADpole that We should not have to put up with his crapola anymore.
At the meeting or Now on line , i wish to Call for Vote by its HHPA members to Ban Tad .
for Ban of Tad = I vote Ban him into the cornield (1)

Rich D Hey Dave S- your a hang one ( Ha ha)

Ditto for your rotten inbred little club which has decided to keep its discussions out of the public view and silence critical voices by majority votes of its paid-up membershit.

Ben Reese - 2016/06/04 14:44:21 UTC

Words do no justice...

Don't worry, neither does the legal system.

...only the feelings of being very sad and extremely humbled by such a loss.

Nothing about surprise, I see.

Last year we lost a pilot off Slide Mt....

We lost a whole shitload of "pilots" last year. And we're continuing to lose them this year at a pretty good clip.

...who was a Top Gun instructor out of Fallon Naval Air Station.

Bullshit. Top Gun instructors aren't out of Fallon Naval Air Station. They're out of Miramar.

Know one really knows what happened there either?

Bullshit. We know EXACTLY what happened in both of these. Trey was scratching too low and slow and Jeff went up on total shit Industry Standard pro toad equipment behind a tug flying a dangerous pattern.

Only theories and that deep seated sense that we take a life risk every time we fly.

Get fucked.

Each and every flight we have to ask ourselves, is it worth the risk?

I'm totally cool with whatever risks you're taking each and every time you fly.

Each and every pilot has to answer that question for themselves and their loved ones.

Only one thought comes to mind as I write this.

I'm pretty stunned that you can do that much.

We have to help and watch each other, we have to have each other's back at all times.

Yeah, let's have scores of stupid pro toad pin benders watching and helping other stupid pro toad pin benders. That should definitely produce better results.

We can't be afraid to speak up if we see something unsafe or catch a pilot being careless or forgetful.

Sure. As long as you're not afraid of being blacklisted out of all the AT operations and the sport itself.

I remember one flight out of FT. Funston where Zack...

Zac.

...Majors walked up to me at launch and asked if I was forgetting something? He waited for my harness to get tight right before I started running?

No. Why would anyone do that? Just gives you a false sense of security.

Then he presented me with my helmet..

MY GOD! You almost launched without YOUR HELMET! I just shit myself just imagining such a thing!

Thank you Zack, I will never ever forget that.

Has Zac ever watched anybody to make sure he complied with u$hPa's 36 year old hook-in check regulation? Or does he just make sure everybody launches with a helmet 'cause that'll greatly mitigate the effect of an unhooked launch?

Fly safe and watch out for each other always no matter what..

Sadly Humbled,
Ben Reese

Get fucked, useless Davis Show cocksucker.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34390
Tragedy at 2016 Quest Air Open

Davis Straub - 2016/05/28 13:36:55 UTC

Risk Mitigation Plan for the Quest Air Open

Yeah Davis, let's waste the bandwidth and take another look at this pile o' crap of yours. Layered so thick that several installments will be required just for a preliminary run.

1. Personnel

Meet Director - Belinda Boulter

Safety Director - Belinda Boulter, in consultation with Russell Brown

Towing Director - Russell Brown

Launch Director - Spencer Kindt, highly experienced Quest Air Manager and tandem instructor. Previous experience launching pilots at two Quest Air meets in 2015.

Launch Line Coordinator - Kate Griffin. Highly experienced launch coordinator at Quest Air and Whitewater, Wisconsin.

Launch Area Assistant - Dolores Mordesani

Launch Line Assistants - Yvonne Sargent, Michelle Haag, Dolores Mordesani

Weather Forecasting and Task Committee Leader - Larry Bunner, highly experienced competition pilot with many years' experience of local weather conditions. Previous experience in this role at two Big Spring meets and last year's Quest Air meet.

Zac Majors and Jonny Durand, number 3 and number 1 in the world will fill out the task committee.

- So name one thing that one of these eminently qualified assholes did to mitigate the risks of the event. Did anyone say or do anything that would likely have prevented a crash or bonked landing? If they'd been replaced by randomly selected ten year old kids who'd never been near a hang glider before and only received a twenty minute group briefing tell me how things would've ended up worse on the safety front.

- How do any of those credentials qualify any of the aforementioned to control issues related to safety in a glider competition? Quote me one of the motherfuckers contributing something positive to a discussion on glider safety. 2013/02/02, Quest Air, Zack Marzec. Not a single one of these assholes had one single syllable of public comment on that one.

- My take is that if Jeff had been at Quest on that afternoon on a recreational flying day minus all these assholes organizing the gliders for safe flying this crash wouldn't have happened.

2. Pilot Qualifications

Pilots must have the following minimum certifications or their national equivalent: Hang 3, RLF, Aerotow.

- And yet on 2016/05/10 Yoko Isomoto...

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7372/27200825980_e2e1d79fd4_o.png

http://ozreport.com/pub/people/Yoko_Isomoto_1.jpg

...clips the treeline going onto final with a hundred and fifty yards of pancake flat putting green runway in front of her, breaks her pelvis into four pieces, and needs to get choppered out of her last effort in Quavis FunFest comp. But if she's got Three equivalency she can nail her flare timing three times in a row to stop within fifty feet of the old Frisbee in the middle of the LZ.

- If Jeff Bohl had an AT signoff how come he didn't know:
-- he was supposed to:
--- stay inside of the Cone of Safety?
--- ALWAYS RELEASE THE TOWLINE before there is a problem?
-- how to properly react to a weak link break?

Pilots must have aerotowed with the glider that he/she is flying or similar...

Define "SIMILAR". Vague bullshit like that is engineered to harass individuals. I've got a goddam AT signoff, it's not glider specific, and I should be able to fly anything I goddam well feel like.

...at least ten times.

- And it's a no brainer that Jeff died on a glider he'd flown on AT a zillion times before so you show me what the justification for this bullshit rule is.

- Note that under Davis Rules if you've aerotowed your brand new T2C ten times two point in sled conditions you're immediately good to go flying it pro toad for a Jeff Bohl launch. Remember, people of varying ages, pro toad is actually SAFER than three point because you have MORE control of the glider. And in three point the carabineer will slide up the bridal and increase your likelihood of nosing in coming off the cart or tucking at altitude.

Practice tows will be available onsite during the days leading up to the competition.

How much of that previous experience and/or practice involved flying pro toad with an easily reachable bent pin release and the Dragonfly doing a hard ninety degree turn thirty feet off the deck?

Both the Meet Director and the Towing Director have the power to exclude from the competition pilots who demonstrate a lack of the necessary skills for safe launching, flight or landing...

- So I guess Yoko and Jeff were excluded from the competition after their last rounds.

- Has anybody made a serious claim that Jeff crashed because he lacked the necessary skills for safe launching? And if he doesn't...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48122
Jeff Bohl remembered

Davis Straub - 2016/06/03 13:20:39 UTC

Services Friday and Saturday

Tiki Mashy

When we got home the pilots flocked to us, our hangar, some not even to fly, just to feel closer to the sport and Jeff.

Friday is the viewing and Saturday is the service. Bart and I and Jeff Kannard will attend both. I miss Jeffee terribly and I wish I had more answers. How a guy who has had engine flame outs in 767s. Landing a plane with full tanks, choosing to counter an air traffic controller's order in an emergency situation, having smoke in the cockpit and numerous other hair raising aviation incidents, couldn't save his own ass in a hang glider. My mind is having a hard time digesting this situation.

...then who the fuck does? Who's saying, "Gawd, what an incompetent asshole! All he had to do was..."?

Either there was something majorly and fundamentally defective about Jeff or there's something majorly and fundamentally defective about the way you motherfuckers are running hang gliding. Make a case to the contrary.

And tell me just how this one differs from John Claytor on 2014/06/02 at the ECC? Strong crosswind conditions, marginal runway, Industry Standard shit towing equipment, keep launching until somebody gets totaled for the purpose of hang gliding or totaled for the purpose of breathing, Safety Committee prudently calls the day.

- How 'bout the tug pilots - the Pilots In Command of all tow flights? Did any of them come under any scrutiny for dangerous practices? Or were they all doing everything one hundred percent perfectly as usual?

...or who lack the fitness to fly safely due to injury, drugs or medication that might affect the pilot's performance in the air.

So did we get the toxicology report back on Jeff yet?

It is the responsibility of every pilot to fly in such a way that personal safety and the safety of others is maintained at all times.

Not on tow...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.

It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.

BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

Ok, keyboard in hand.
I've got a bit of time, but I'm not going to write a dissertation... so either choose to try to understand what I'm saying, or (as is most often the case) don't.
I don't care.

Here's a little bit of bitter reality that ya'll get to understand straight off. I won't be sugar coating it, sorry.
You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.
I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.
And yes. It is my call. PERIOD.
On tow, I am the PIC.

Now, that cuts hard against every fiber of every HG pilot on the planet and I get that.
Absolutely no HG pilot likes hearing it. Not me, not no one. BUT... sorry, that's the way it is.
Accept it and move on.
Not only can you not change it, it's the law... in the very literal sense.

So, you're quite right in your thinking in your example. The person you have to convince is me (or whoever your tuggie is).
I've had this conversation with many people.
We've had various outcomes.
I can tell you what my general ideas and rules are, but you do not need to agree with them nor do you get to dictate anything to me... if I'm not happy, you ain't getting towed by me. Why I'm not happy doesn't matter. It's my call, and if I'm having so much as a bad hair day, then tough. You can go get someone else. I won't be offended. Each tuggie is different, and I've had someone ask me to tow them with some stuff that I wasn't happy with and I told him point blank... go ask the other guy, maybe he'll do it.

I can tell you that for me, you're going to have a hell of a time convincing me to tow you with *anything* home-made.
"But I love my mouth release! It's super-delux-safe"... that's great, but guess what?

I've towed at places that use different weak links than greenspot. They're usually some other form of fishing line. Up in Nelson (New Zealand), they don't have greenspot, so they found a similar weight fishing line. They replace their link every single tow btw... every one, without question or exception... that's just what the owner wants and demands. Fine by me. If it wasn't, then I wouldn't tow for them and I wouldn't be towed by them. That's his place and he gets to make that call. Pretty simple.

Up at Morningside, they're using that new orange weaklink. It's a bit stronger and it has to be sewn or glued so it doesn't slip when unloaded.

If you're within the FAA specs and you're using something manufactured, then you're going to have a far better time convincing me to tow you.
My general rule is "no funky shit". I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots. Have I towed a few test pilots? Yup. Have I towed them in anything but very controlled conditions? Nope. It's a damn high bar. I've told more to piss off than I've told yes. I'll give you an example... I towed a guy with the early version of the new Lookout release. But the Tad-o-link? Nope.

So I hope that sheds some light on the situation.
But again, every tuggie's different and every situation is different.
What doesn't change however is that it's my call, not yours.
And it's my job to be the "bad guy" sometimes.
Sorry. It's just the way it is.

The tow is the responsibility of the tug pilot. It's the law... in the very literal sense. Don't tell me it's not 'cause not one of you Industry player motherfuckers has ever taken issue with that little shit on this matter. So who was Jeff's Pilot In Command and what disciplinary actions have you taken against him?

Directors may penalize competitors who fail to observe this rule, or exclude them from the results.

- Bet Jeff's family wishes he could be excluded from the results.

- Name one penalty that's ever been imposed on one tug pilot who's killed his passenger.

Tug drivers literally get away with murder 'cause they've got hang gliders in a position in which their opportunities for airtime are dependent upon them. Highland Aerosports just folded after seventeen seasons - with a devastating impact on Mid Atlantic flying - for want of a single tug driver. They can do no wrong. If the glider gets towed up and dropped into lift Windsor Coggeshall is an excellent tug pilot. If the tug makes a hard right turn at thirty feet and the glider on the shit equipment gets killed by a lockout to the left it's 'cause the glider thought he could fix a bad thing and didn't wanna start over and the driver gets lifetime anonymity from the Code of Silence.

Pilots are required to follow instructions given to them by meet officials expeditiously or risk penalty.

And, of course, all instructions given to them by meet officials will be in their best interests.

Pilots will be instructed where to set up their gliders in the staging lines, where to enter the launch lines, and how to be prepared to launch safely.

Jeff pretty fucking obviously wasn't prepared to launch safely. And the fact that you're looking into Kaluzhin releases subsequent to the fatality is damn good evidence that you assholes knew perfectly well that neither he nor anyone else was prepared to launch safely.

Pilots need to follow these instructions carefully.

No Kaluzhin releases. Davis Dead-On Straub hasn't been able trial them enough to make sure they meet with his sterling performance standards.

3. Safety Committee

A Safety Committee of three competitors will be named at the first pilot briefing.

Oh good. The Meet Heads will just NAME the members of the Safety Committee.
- How 'bout Jeff Bohl? What with his long and remarkable career as an airline pilot it's hard to imagine anyone better suited.
- So who were the six named for Quest Air Opens One and Two who pulled things off so spectacularly well?

The Committee will assess each task for safety aspects including weather, airspace and potential hazards after the task is first determined by the task committee.

Would potential hazards include tugs making hard right turns at thirty feet with pro toads on total shit easily reachable equipment behind them?

The task can be disapproved at that point and would have to go back to the task committee for revision.

Gotta keep those tasks safe - 'specially in Central Florida where narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place are frequently XC pilots' only landing options.

The Safety Committee will determine maximum wind speeds (or speeds depending on direction) for the competition in conjunction with the Safety Director.

- So I guess things were fine on 2016/05/21.
- How 'bout the previous Quest Air fatality on 2013/02/02? Were conditions at all questionable for pro toads on Quavis Links then?

The Safety Committee will meet with the Safety Director on launch just before launch opening for a final assessment of the conditions and safety aspects of the task.

Looks great. Let's roll.

[Tad Eareckson]

Risk Mitigation Plan for the Quest Air Open

4. Weather forecasting, task planning.

The weather forecaster will be a member of the Task Committee. He will discuss at each Committee meeting any anticipated potentially hazardous conditions for that day.

Did he? Did he express the slightest reservation about the situation on 2016/05/21? Or was it a Ten? You haven't told us anybody uttered a single syllable's worth of concern about what was going on. Possibilities:
- reservations were expressed and ignored and you're covering up
- everybody thought everything was great and your personnel component was totally incompetent

The Task Committee will take these conditions into consideration in the setting of each task.

Goal fields will be designated and assessed in advance by organizers.

How 'bout the launch fields? If the goal fields appear to be problematic the individual pilots can exercise other options.

In planning each day's task, the Task Committee will use such tools as SeeYou and Google Earth to assess such potential hazards as airspace, bodies of water, forested areas...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=47939
The "how" of loosing Jeff

Christopher LeFay - 2016/05/22 18:21:11 UTC

The staging on the day of the crash was more or less the same as the last day of Part 1 of the Open: East to West. Attached is an Airtribune screen shot showing Jeff's track; with the green triangle on the right about where the tow was started from. As I recall, the wind speed was forecast for 5-15 mph; images from that day show flags standing out and whipping. On that aforementioned last day of the previous comp, many tugs flew West toward the slot, banking 45-90 to the North before reaching the tree line, around tree top height. Amongst the many unknowns to me are how many pilots were towed up before Jeff and the path they took on the day of the crash.

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7447/26578855104_69f4705474_o.jpg

...and other topographic features. They will take pilot safety into consideration in planning every task, and tasks will be reviewed by the Safety Committee as described above.

Didn't hear anything about what's always gonna be the most dangerous aspect of any flight out of Quest.

5. Safety briefing

A Safety Briefing will be included in the first Pilot Briefing, using the Risk Assessment outlines in the USHPA Sanctioning Manual, and including weak links, bridles, launching and towing issues.

- But not, obviously, including RELEASES. There is not one single mention of a primary RELEASE in Davis's Quest Air Open Risk Mitigation Plan - just one reference to a SECONARY "release" for which a single loop of a two hundred pound test cord connecting a bridle end to a tow loop on the harness qualifies.

- How 'bout comp pilot physical condition?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Brad Gryder - 2013/02/21 23:25:31 UTC

There's also a way to swing your body way outside the control frame so it stays up there while you reach out with one hand and release. Come on - do some pushups this winter. See if you can advance up to some one-arm pushups.

There's a way to swing your body way outside the control frame so it stays up there while you reach out with one hand and release. Was Jeff up to that task? Was ANYBODY? Shouldn't EVERYBODY have been required to demonstrate currency with that capability on a qualification flight in stable conditions at safe altitude prior to the commencement of comp launches?

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2015/03/14
Sanctioning Manual
4. Standards for Sanctioned Competitions
- 1. Operational Standards
-- When towing, the pilot's tow bridal shall be equipped with a weak-link along with a primary and secondary means of disconnecting the towline. A properly placed weak-link may serve as the secondary release. The tow pilot shall be equipped with at least one method of completely releasing the towline from the towing device.

Wow! Followed all that to a T! The pilot's tow bridal was equipped with a weak-link along with a primary and secondary means of disconnecting the towline. The properly placed weak-link served as the secondary release. The tow pilot was equipped with at least one method of completely releasing the towline from the towing device. And, since the pilot elected not to use his primary release to release the bridal, the properly placed weak-link served as the secondary release and the tow pilot used his one method of completely releasing the towline from his towing device. Everything worked perfectly! Except the tow pilot's passenger!

Let's take a closer look at:

The tow pilot shall be equipped with at least one method of completely releasing the towline from the towing device.

- This is already covered under FAA aerotowing regs that cover everything from hang gliders to sailplanes so why include it in this bullshit?

- Since you say virtually NOTHING ELSE about the "towing device" - performance, airworthiness, parachutes, preflight, tire inflation, primary and secondary releases, bridles, weak link appropriateness and placement, pilot qualification and experience, helmets - just that Russell Brown will check them for "readiness" each day, it's pretty fucking obvious that this is parameter is intended for the safety of the glider. And this perception is bolstered by statements from the most skilled, knowledgeable, and keenly intellectual tug pilot this planet will ever see:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 09:25:48 UTC

It's a pain in the ass btw. If I drop my rope, I have to go get it... which means I'm not towing again for a while... and who knows where you're going to leave it.
So thankfully it's not too common.

You have to scare me.
You're either trying to kill yourself, or you're trying to kill me.
Either you're way out of whack and threatening to crash or you're pointing me at stuff that will hurt (trees, the ground, etc)

This on top of Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's unchallenged assertion that he is the legal Pilot In Command and the guy on the glider is just his passenger makes a strong case that the pilot of Jeff's "towing device" is guilty of negligent homicide.

Subsequent daily Pilot Briefings will include specific safety issues for that day, such as weather conditions, controlled airspace, potential obstructions and dangers along the route and at goal.

How 'bout:

- at launch? Just kidding. At launch the u$hPa Standards for Sanctioned Competitions were all complied with so there were no specific safety issues that needed to be addressed.

- the shit equipment that the meet heads sell and force all competitors to use?

Risks reported by pilots and meet staff, and any risky behavior observed will also be discussed.

What do you do if all the significant risks are results of the control exercised by the corrupt and incompetent dickheads serving as meet staff?

The Weather Forecaster will discuss any potential safety issues as part of that day's weather presentation.

What if your safe runway is aligned north/south and the wind's cranking in from the west?

The Weather Forecaster and Task Committee cannot predict every circumstance that a pilot may encounter during the task.

Obviously - as they can't even predict shit about steady dangerous conditions at launch.

It is ultimately the pilot's responsibility to observe conditions and fly in a safe manner, or to land if necessary.

What about takeoff? The fuckin' Meet Heads and tug drivers have ultimate control of launch and outrank the competitors. They get one hundred percent of the power but zero percent of the responsibility? What's the purpose of even having Meet Heads, Safety Committees, bogus equipment standards then?

6. Equipment safety check in advance

All gliders and associated equipment shall be of sufficient performance and standard of airworthiness to meet the demands of international championships, and shall be flown within the airworthiness limits established by the manufacturer.

Oh really?

http://ozreport.com/20.100
The Quest Air Open Part 2

Davis Straub - 2016/05/19 02:29:41 UTC

Preliminary results

01 - Zac Majors - Wills Wing T2C 144
02 - Oleg Bondarchuk - Aeros Combat-12.7 C
03 - Jonny Durand - Moyes RX 3.5
04 - Cory Barnwell - Moyes RX 3.5
05 - Andrew Hollidge - Moyes RX 3.5
06 - Fausto Arcos - Wills Wing T2C 154
06 - Misael Rosalez - Moyes RS 3.5
06 - Richard Lovelace - Wills Wing T2C 144 Carbon
09 - Kevin Dutt - Icaro Z9
10 - Davis Straub - Wills Wing T2C 144

Wills Wing

Technical Information and Placarded Operating Limitations

NOTE: The T2 has been designed for foot launched soaring flight. It has not been designed to be motorized, tethered, or towed.

Name one of those gliders that you motherfuckers were flying that's being flown within the airworthiness limits established by the manufacturer while it's on tow. You're specifically and deliberately flying them OUTSIDE the airworthiness limits established by the manufacturer while it's on tow. And you need look no further to determine the cause of Jeff's fatal crash since the pillar of this Quest Air Open Risk Mitigation Plan of yours is to...

http://ozreport.com/20.102
The Quest Air Open Part 2

Davis Straub - 2016/05/22 02:26:08 UTC

Accident on the launching pad

Today we experienced a fatal aerotowing accident when a fellow pilot locked out very soon after coming off the cart. He plowed head first straight into the ground from too high right in front of us.

Fausto Arcos who was in the front of the launch line just in front of me watched the whole thing and said it was a "classic" progressive lockout. The pilot needed to release much earlier before it became non-recoverable.

The pilot's weak link broke at apparently the same time as tug pilot gave him the rope. The tug pilot gave the hang glider pilot the rope because the hang glider pilot's glider was pulling the tow plane's tail to the east forcing the tug toward trees that the tug with this drag would not be able to get above. All of the hang glider's undersurface was visible in the tug pilot's mirror.

We have a risk management plan in effect for this competition as a requirement from the USHPA for their insurance as well as for their future insurance situation. Part of that plan requires us to quickly retrieve pilots that have weak link breaks or land in the designated areas. We put these pilots back in line quickly so that they do not suffer from not being able to be towed to 2,000' on their tow. We do this so that pilots will quickly go for the release if there is a problem and not hesitate trying to stay on the tow just because they are in a competition.

...get the glider the fuck off of tow such that the it's back being flown within the airworthiness limits established by the manufacturer. There are two times in a flight when airworthiness and control is critical - launch and landing. And you're totally shredding your own rule on one of them. And this is where you kill the guy. Big fuckin' surprise.

Why not just throw out that rule entirely? It's TOTALLY MEANINGLESS at launch, it doesn't matter all that much at altitude where you're gonna have a good shot at remedying an issue with a parachute. And if you've made it all the way to landing it's highly unlikely that there's a relevant problem that wouldn't have already manifested itself.

Moving on to the "associated equipment"... Show me the "standard of airworthiness" of that cheap bent pin easily reachable shit you motherfuckers force everyone to buy and fly.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/10 14:09:22 UTC

I've had no problem releasing my barrel release hundreds of times.

That's it. Davis has had no problem releasing his barrel release hundreds of times. If Davis has had no problem flying his glider with an internally corroded cross spar which will fail at 2.5 Gs hundreds of times the glider is good to go.

Pilots are responsible for proper setup and pre-flight checking of all equipment.

So if you require the pilot to fly with the two hundred pound weak link you decided you were happy with shortly after Zack Marzec was killed and the bent pin barrel release you sell that locks up at 155 pounds its his responsibility for dying as a consequence of complying with your safety standards.

Helmets and parachutes are mandatory.

Fuck yeah. Those would be your only hopes for survival in any towing emergency situations. Real bummer that Jeff was too high for his helmet to do him any good and too low for his parachute to do him any good. What are the odds?

Pilots will be encouraged to fly with radios, and a list of pilot radio frequencies will be maintained by the Meet Director.

Should the radios be set up like:

05-065603


10-082203

so's you can maintain control of the glider while you're talking?

Russell Brown will be in charge of pre-checking all the tugs. He will "green tag tugs" for flight operations each day, and "red tag" any not ready.

Shouldn't he also be in charge of...

HIGHER EDUCATION - 2012/06
TIE A (BETTER) WEAK LINK

Dr. Trisa Tilletti

Russell Brown, a founder of Quest Air in Florida and a well-known Dragonfly tug pilot, is also a sailplane pilot, tug pilot, and A&P mechanic for a large commercial sailplane towing operation in Florida. He told us that, like us, he has never seen a sailplane weak link break, either. Russell owned the first 914-powered Dragonfly ever made--he helped us build the second one, which we still fly. He is the one who, many years ago, showed us the method for making a WT weak link and suggested we use polypropylene rather than Spectra for hang glider V-bridles.

...pre-checking all the glider weak links? The Wrapped and Tied ones break more consistently and better meet our expectation of breaking as early as possible in lockout situations, but being strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks from turbulence.

And what about the bridals?

02-00820c
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7252/27169646315_9af9a62298_o.png


Doesn't look like Li'l Niki is using either a Russell Brown Wrapped and Tied 130 pound Greenspot weak link or a Russell Brown polypro bridal.

Quest Air staff will pre-check launch carts: grease the wheels, check tires for air pressure, check cradles, check keel height adjuster clips and have extra clips. Carts will be set to the right height for pilots. Carts will be kept in good condition and with proper tire pressure during the competition; an air pressure tank...

An air TENSION tank.

...will be available at the cart setup area.

All tow ropes will be pre-checked...

For what?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Brad Gryder - 2011/08/25 00:04:50 UTC

But in actual practice, especially at a busy flight park, the tug monkey has limited time to maintain his "Master" weak link at 100%, so it will degrade in strength until he finds time to replace it. Same is true for the busy tandem monkey, so it's a statistical game as to when the tug's weak link might eventually fail before the gilder's.

The rear monkey, keen on survival, is aware of this and is ready to accept it (the rope) when it happens.

The Tug Pilot is responsible for his weak link and must manage it accordingly. Same for the other end. They both must be prepared for the worst while hoping for better.

The towline can only do two things - not break or break. So it only needs to be pre-checked to see if it's likely to break. And what's that matter? Anything that breaks in front of the glider increases the safety of the towing operation. And if you believe otherwise then why aren't you inspecting the tug's tow mast breakaway protector and tow mast breakaway - both of which are geared to blow at the same tension this:

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7252/27169646315_9af9a62298_o.png


is.

...and extra ropes will be on hand.

Polypro or spectra?

Proper carabineers will be used on the tow planes, with extras available.

How do you know whether or not something you're incapable of spelling is proper?

[Tad Eareckson]

Risk Mitigation Plan for the Quest Air Open

Appropriate pilot weak links will be made up in advance.

- Oh. Appropriate PILOT weak links. That must mean the ones for the tug 'cause he's the Pilot In Command and we're just passengers. Plus...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/23 19:42:44 UTC

Brian... yep... the issue of the tug's link is a big one and you've summed it up nicely.
The tug uses 3 strand and so all this talk about using a stronger one is academic.
You don't get to have one that's equal or stronger.

This thing that Li'l Niki's using here:

02-00820c
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7252/27169646315_9af9a62298_o.png


DEFINITELY looks at least as strong as Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's. And also we have:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).

So do we still have to tell the tug pilot if we're using appropriate weak links that are made up in advance?

And are all these tug pilots properly qualified to tow...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 17:34:33 UTC

See, Russel knows what's up.
He knows that you're changing the equation and because of this, you need to ask the tug pilot.
Some people I'll tow like this. Some I won't. Most that do this are the type I won't. At the end of the day, it's my call, not yours.

...today's appropriate weak links? The ones that were...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Marc Fink - 2007/05/19 12:58:31 UTC

Tad,

The simple fact is that hundreds of thousands of tows using weaklinks in their present configuration successfully bely your contentions that we're all crazy for towing that way.

Simply put, your statements are irresponsible and are based on your personal interpretations.

I am a tow operator--as well as a "towee." I also do aerotow tandems. Using greenline or similar line, which generally tests at 125 lbs +- 50 lbs is widely accepted because it simply works well and relatively predicatably for the enormous range of conditions and applications in towing. If this weren't true, then accident rates would be much higher and these kinds of weaklinks would have been abandoned along time ago.

A 400lb load limit for a solo tow is absurd.

...absurd when T** at K*** S****** proposed eight years ago but so many of us...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Davis Straub - 2014/09/01 15:22:41 UTC

I can tell you that I fly with a 200lb weaklink on one side of my 750lb pro tow bridle. I am happy with it.

...became happy with shortly after the Zack Marzec invisible dust devil fatality?

- Oh. So the appropriate weak link is there for the safety of the PILOT.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC

To:
Davis Straub; Tow Group
Cc:
Rohan Holtkamp; Paris Williams
Subject:
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

Davis,

Your weak link comments are dead on. I have been reading the weak link discussion in the OR with quiet amusement. Quiet, because weak links seem to be one of those hot button issues that brings out the argumentative nature of HG pilots and also invokes the "not designed here" mentality and I really did not want to get drawn into a debate. Amusement, because I find it odd that there was so much ink devoted to reinventing the wheel. Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition. Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.

You are completely correct about weak links and lockouts. If I can beat the horse a little more: Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster. The pilot activating his or her releases is their way to save themselves. A perfect analogy is the circuit breaker in your home, it is there to protect the wire not what you plug into the wall socket. If anyone does not believe me they can plug their car retrieve 2-way radio into the wall socket and watch it go up in flames with the circuit breaker cumfortably remaining in the on position (I hope no one really tries this .

A discussion of the strength of weak links is incomplete without a discussion of the tow bridal. I hear (read) strengths quoted with respect to the combined pilot and glider weight yet this is meaningless info with out knowing what bridal configuration is used and where it is placed in the bridal system. For example, a 200# weak link can allow between 200# and 800# of towline force depending on where it is placed within the various popular bridal configurations.

On the tow plane we use 1-1/2 loops (3 strands) of 130# line. The weak link is placed in the top of a V-bridal which would yield a maximum nominal towline tension of around 780#. However, due to the fact the knots (two are required since there are three strands) are not "buried" the maximum towline tension is greatly reduced. I do not know the exact tow line tension required to break this weak link but the value is somewhat moot since the weak link is not too strong so as to cause any damage to the tow plane and it is not too weak to leave the glider pilot with the towline.

Summary

Do not attempt to aerotow unless you have received proper training
Do not attend an aerotow comp if you do not have considerable experience flying a comp class glider in comp class conditions
Weak links are there to protect the equipment
Weak links do NOT prevent lockouts and no amount of weak link rules will prevent lock outs
In the event of a lock out releases are there to save the pilot

Best regards, Steve - Flytec USA

So how come you never corrected u$hPa's quietly amused former Towing Committee Chairman when he was sucking your dick and stating that weak links are there to protect the equipment and not the pilot?

Pilots must use weak links provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers.

Why? What are they supposed to do? When Jeff Bohl used an appropriate weak link provided by the meet organizers in a manner approved by the meet organizers, it:
- didn't break when it was supposed to
- dangerously compromised control of the Dragonfly
- held the glider pilot so far into a lockout that the tow was unsurvivable

If its...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:15:12 UTC

Oh, in case it's not obvious (which it doesn't seem to be), once someone starts telling me what the "sole" purpose of a weaklink is, I tune them out as they have no clue what they're talking about.

Weaklinks are there to improve the safety of the towing operation, as I've stated before.

Any time someone starts in on this "sole purpose" bullshit, it's cuz they're arguing for stronger weaklinks cuz they're breaking them and are irritated by the inconvenience. I've heard it a million times and it's a load of shit. After they've formed their opinion, then they go in search of arguments that support their opinion.

...SOLE PURPOSE is to protect the equipment why don't you just give us some numbers we can use to make sure our gliders won't have their wings torn off in flight?

All weak links will be checked on launch, and use of inappropriate weak links will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weak link.

Guess Jeff must've bribed one of the officials in order to be able to hook up with his massively INappropriate weak link. Endangered the tug...

http://ozreport.com/3.066
Weaklinks

Davis Straub - 1999/06/06

During the US Nationals I wrote a bit about weaklinks and the gag weaklinks that someone tied at Quest Air. A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.

I told him that I would be happy to publish anything that he wrote about weaklinks, but I never received anything from him or anyone else at Quest.

The problem with strong links (neither Bobby Bailey nor I was aware at the time of the US Nationals that pilots were doing this) is that they endanger the tug pilot. If the hang glider pilot goes into a lock out, and doesn't break the weaklink (because there isn't one), they can stall the tug.

...and got his own ass killed.

Weak links should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

Definititely not BOTH ends...

15-1123
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7230/26861366980_c893cd5c3a_o.png


http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27393
Pro towing: 1 barrel release + weak link or 2 barrel release

Juan Saa - 2012/10/18 01:19:49 UTC
Boca Raton

The normal braking force in pounds for a weak link is around 180, at least that is the regular weak link line used at most aerotow operations. By adding a second weak link to your bridal you are cutting the load on each link by half, meaning that the weak link will not break at the intended 180 pounds but it will need about 360.
If that is what you use and is what your instructor approved then I have no business on interfering, i dont know if you are using the same weak link material but there shoul be only ONE weak link on a tow bridle for it to be effective in breaking before higher loads are put into you and the glider should the glider gets to an attitude or off track so much that the safety fuse of the link is needed to break you free from the tug.

I made the same mistake on putting two weak links thinking that I was adding protection to my setup and I was corrected by two instructors on separate occacions at Quest Air and at the Florida RIdge.

That would double the tow pressure required to blow an appropriate weak link on just one end of the bridal at most of the Florida aerotow operations.

The tow forces on the weak link will be roughly divided in half by this placement.

As opposed to being divided in quarters with BJ Herring's moronic configuration.

Pilots will be shown how to tie the weak link so that it more likely breaks at its rating breaking strength.

Why? You just said:

Appropriate pilot weak links will be made up in advance.

Just because you show pilots how to tie the weak link so that it more likely breaks at its rating breaking strength doesn't mean they WILL tie the weak link so that it more likely breaks at its rating breaking strength. And if they tie it so that it less likely breaks at its rating breaking strength gawd only knows what would happen. But I'll tell ya one thing fer sure... It will no fuckin' way in hell still be an appropriate weak link. And lotsa these guys are total morons. Jeff Bohl didn't even know how to fly inside the Cone of Safety, always release before there is a problem, or react properly to a weak link inconvenience.

Competitors must use appropriate aerotow bridles...

The long thin spectra ones that won't wrap at the tow ring - much more than half the time in a lockout scenario.

...as determined by the Meet Director and Safety Director and their designated officials.

Incompetent dickheads recruiting incompetent little cocksuckers to force everybody to use the most dangerous equipment they can concoct.

Bridles must include secondary releases (as determined by the Safety Director).

Do they need to include primary releases (as determined by the Safety Director)? Do basetubes need to include downtubes (as determined by the Safety Director)? THEY'RE SEPARATE COMPONENTS - DICKHEAD. It's PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for a bridle to INCLUDE a release. The BRIDLE is the thing the RELEASE RELEASES. Do make an attempt to learn English before attempting to write regulations which can and do spell the differences between life and death.

Bridles must be able to be connected to the tow line within two seconds.

'Specially when you're using appropriate weak links...

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble

Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

Time becomes of the essence.

The only appropriate bridles can be found here:
http://OzReport.com/9.039#0
ProTow

and:
http://ozreport.com/9.041#2
More Protows

Oh. I don't have anything like that. Any chance I can purchase one of those from you guys before the comp?

Pilots with inappropriate bridles may purchase appropriate bridles from the meet organizer.

Thank God! Now that's what I call a MEET ORGANIZER.

So I guess we now have a pretty good idea of what it was that Jeff was flying with and elected not to use because he spent too long trying to avoid the inconvenience of a relight.

Does this mean no bike-handle releases, even for Sport Class? Nope.

Yeah Davis. IT *DOES*. You'd have to be able to grasp concepts like words and language to be able to understand that but when a Quest Air Open Risk Mitigation Plan states:

The only appropriate bridles can be found here:
http://OzReport.com/9.039#0
ProTow

and:
http://ozreport.com/9.041#2
More Protows

that means that the only appropriate bridles are found there and there.

only -
and no one or nothing more besides; solely or exclusively: there are only a limited number of tickets available | only their faith sustained them.

Get somebody who made it through first grade without benefit of a social promotion to explain it to you.

[Tad Eareckson]

Risk Mitigation Plan for the Quest Air Open

7. Launch placement.

Each morning the launch area will be determined by the Towing Director based on the weather forecast, and will be announced at the Pilot Briefing. The launch placement will be confirmed or changed one hour before launch time.

Pilots must have all their gear and gliders in the launch area, away from the takeoff and landing areas, half an hour before launch open.

The Meet Director can suspend launch at any time for any safety issue.

Or he can continue launching under dangerous conditions and suspend launch right after somebody locks out and dies.

The Meet Director/ Launch Director can stop any pilot from launching who does not appear capable of launching safely.

Would cardiac arrest following impact be a reasonable tip-off?

Launch will be suspended if there is an incident/accident in Quest Air field.

Why? You've been pulling the same lunatic bullshit for decades and you're gonna continue doing it afterwards. What possible difference could an afternoon's stand-down make over the long run?

8. Launch procedures.

Both the Meet Director and the Towing Director have the power to ban flying from the site if a task or day is cancelled due to dangerous conditions.

What the fuck... The emergency responders and fake investigators usually have the power to do that.

Flags and/or streamers will be set out on the launch area, with larger wind indicators mid-field.

Like?:

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7077/27082298482_cda1aba01b_o.png

This competition will use an ordered launch, with numbered staging lines and launching in numeric order.

Gawd. Where would we be without an ordered launch with numbered staging lines and launching in numeric order? Total anarchy!

There will be a "launch box" for the pilot preparing to launch next.

Will there also be a "lunch box" for the pilot about to eat it next?

There is no pushing (there is an implied push with an ordered launch).

You certainly won't find me pushing to launch in any environment in which any of you pigfuckers have any influence.

Pilots will not have to stay in their gear getting too hot because they will know when it is their turn to launch.

Just make sure you have that helmet buckled on at any time you're hooked into your glider. That's the most important safety regulation u$hPa's ever put on the books and they're not gonna have much patience with violators. (And everybody be sure to remember to thank Bob for that one.)

The Task Committee may choose to offer an "earlybird" launch if that is deemed safe and desirable.

So what would stop the Task Committee from deeming something safe and desirable?

Numbered launch and staging lines will keep pilots from tussling for position and help keep tempers cool.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 16:45:39 UTC

I am more than happy to have a stronger weaklink and often fly with the string used for weaklinks used at Wallaby Ranch for tandem flights (orange string - 200 lbs). We used these with Russell Brown's (tug owner and pilot) approval at Zapata after we kept breaking weaklink in light conditions in morning flights.

Launch lines will be directed away from tug traffic. There will be a designated landing area and setup for tugs. There will be a designated landing area for hang gliders away from tug landing area and out of the tug setup area.

What if the tug pulls a hard right at thirty feet and you lock out to the left and try to salvage the tow instead of releasing and starting over? Do you still have to use the designated landing area?

Launch crew will assist pilots in moving from the staging line to the launch line, with cart height adjustments, and with any last-minute equipment issues.

Like when you've just seen somebody lock out and die because he was required to fly an appropriate bridle and you decide you want something that DOESN'T stink on ice?

The Launch Director will provide a final hang check for every pilot.

Yeah. It would be really horrible if you went off unhooked on a dolly launch.

10-03610
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2934/14379547800_3ebddd9d9b_o.png

He will wave off the tug only when he deems that conditions are safe and clear of any air traffic.

So who waved the tug off ten seconds before Jeff was killed three Saturdays ago?

9. Monitoring conditions during an ongoing task

The Meet Director will monitor weather radar during launch and task.

Will he monitor the windsock on the side of the runway and the tugs' flight patterns?

The Meet Director will maintain a list of pilot radio frequencies and driver mobile numbers, to allow for rapid stopping of a task if necessary.

Good idea. The pilots in the air might not be able to tell what's going on with the conditions. Same as the ones in line at launch.

All pilots have the responsibility to monitor the flying conditions and should report to the Meet Director directly or through their drivers when conditions become unsafe on course.

Unsafe conditions at launch should just be ignored.

The Meet Director may cancel a task before any competitor has taken off if the weather becomes unsuitable or for safety reasons, or may choose to suspend the launch.

What does it take? A funnel cloud stuffed with a couple trailer parks worth of mobile homes half a mile out?

She will attempt to consult with Safety Committee members by radio during the task, and may stop a task if the weather becomes dangerous.

Or after. Just to make sure the task isn't being cancelled for no good reason.

If the task is stopped it will be announced on pilot radio frequencies and to the drivers by telephone.

And don't forget to call 911 after you've taken care of all the other communications - not that that's ended up mattering for the last two at Quest.

10. Pilots report on landing

Pilots will be required to report that they have landed safely by SMS to the Meet Director, who will record their status.

Pilots who've landed unsafely will be excused from this requirement upon receipt of a note signed by a qualified medical professional.

At a pre-announced time (around Civil Twilight) the Meet Director will begin calling pilots/drivers who have not reported back, and she may decide to contact emergency authorities.

I dunno. If they were able to get out of that field in those conditions on that crap equipment you forced them to use it would be hard to imagine them not being able to handle some other situation on the flight.

Emergency authorities in the area will have been contacted by the organizers in advance, to make them aware of the event and pre-plan any emergency procedures.

And don't bother with the address or directions. They all know the way in by now.

Landing forms allowing for safety comments will be available at check-in, and at the pilot briefing the following day. The Landing Verification Form will contain the following and may be completed by each pilot as follows:
- 1. Safe
- 2. Unsafe in some parts
- 3. Unsafe. The results will be taken under advisement and may be discussed at the next Pilot Briefing.

Can I write in, "Fuck all you assholes and the horses you rode in on."?

11. Cloud flying

All competitors are required to comply with FAR 103 (U.S. Airspace Law/ Federal Aviation Administration Air Traffic Rule violations) at all times.

But you're more than welcome to ignore the crap outta all the FAA and u$hPa aerotowing regs and SOPs you want. As a matter o' fact, we're gonna be forcing you to.

A copy of FAR 103 can be provided to all competitors. Any verified infraction will result in a penalty (see below) for the associated day or possible ejection from the contest. Pilots are expected to familiarize themselves with all controlled airspaces in the vicinity of course lines (maps will be provided).

It is illegal and un-sportsmanlike for competitors to fly into clouds.

It's illegal to fly with Rooney Links, pro toad bridles, easily reachable bent pin releases, Dragonfly tow mast breakaway protectors, a weak link on one end of a long thin spectra bridle. But none of that has ever slowed any of you total douchebags down the least degree.

Competitors who fly into clouds will incur a penalty for the day.

What kind of penalty will a pro toad with an appropriate bridle incur when he locks out at thirty feet?

A competitor is deemed to have flown into a cloud if he/she is observed by a meet official or videotaped going into and disappearing into a cloud, or videotaped appearing out of a cloud, or: If two witnesses from two different countries near the accused witness the accused going up into the cloud and completely disappearing from their view, and attest to this fact in writing and if barograph or 3D GPS traces from the accused and a witness show the accused above the witness at the time of the incident.

Will a competitor be deemed to have flown into the ground upon presentation of a death certificate from a qualified medical professional?

If the accused cannot produce a barograph trace for that day or a 3D GPS track log from their 3D GPS, only two witness statements are required. It is highly recommended for all competitors to fly with a recording barograph and they must fly with a 3D GPS at all times.

How 'bout a release they'll be able to blow when they need to? Just kidding, none of those fall into the category of "appropriate".

A pilot sucked...

They all sucked. None of them were pilots during the most critical phase of the flight.

...into cloud who did not have the intention of gaining an advantage should perform a figure 8 maneuver once out of the cloud so that other pilots could see it had not been intended. It is recommended that a pilot sucked into cloud who did not have the intention of gaining an advantage should perform a figure 8 maneuver once out of the cloud so that other pilots could see it had not been intended.

Witnesses should press Mark/Enter when they witness a pilot going into a cloud. Any pilot found to be deliberately supplying false information about another pilot...

...should talk to Mitch Shipley about getting a spot on the Accident Review Committee.

...with respect to cloud flying will be removed from the competition.

I can think of worse ways to get removed from the competition.

The penalty - the offending pilot shall receive a 10% reduction in their score for the first infraction, 30% reduction for a second, and then a zero daily score for any further infractions.

Meet officials may fly with the pilots to check for cloud flying and to be in contact with the safety director (who will not be flying at any time) to report safety conditions on course.

If nobody had flown at any time the results of the Quest Air Opens One and Two would've been vastly superior to what was ended up with as things were.

If the meet director is flying and checking on pilots and the weather the deputy meet director shall take over his duties.

Will the deputy meet director be sufficiently qualified in the sleaze department?

Done with that crap. Twenty more posts in this one thread to deal with. So hoping I can get caught up before the next u$hPa victim dies doing what he loved.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34390
Tragedy at 2016 Quest Air Open

Bruno Schnedl - 2016/05/28 14:12:04 UTC

So there are two realms to fly in, the fun/free flying and Comp. I am new to comp but thought the way Davis/Belinda ran the Green Swamp and the Quest Air Open ( which I competed in) were very safe and well run.

Course you did - cocksucker.

The organizational skills and risk mitigation are necessary and comforting but all the words on paper won't help a pilot in a strange or dangerous position in the air.

Pro toad, nothing to trim the nose down, tug pulling hard right, glider rolling hard left, two hundred pound weak link maxing out under four hundred pounds of towline pressure, two hands needed to fly the glider, bent pin release within easy reach, tug pilot not fixing whatever's going on back there by giving the glider the rope... Who could've seen anything like THAT coming?

In aviation the Swiss Cheese Model is the best way to illustrate.

What the fuck could some Jack Show Davis cocksucker possibly know about AVIATION?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model

Davis, I don't know of anything in YOUR power that you could have done to avoid the accident.

How very odd. I don't know of anything in Davis's power he could've done to further reduce Jeff's chances of survival - and still have gotten away with murder again.

Your risk mitigation plan seems to cover the bases.

- You spelled "asses" wrong.

- Yeah, his risk mitigation plan seemed to cover the bases but an airline pilot was slammed in and killed on a routine Quavis launch. Go figure. But on the plus side nobody was eaten by an alligator.

The problem is something bigger than competition flying. It is universal to every launch (no matter what type), every flight and every landing. Unusual situations will arise and ARE WE comfortable in our ability to handle them? In the Airlines we have Sim training, in Air Traffic Control we have AT Coach(simulator) We don't just read the flight manual or 7110.65 and hope we can apply what we read to the real life situation. We actually see these abnormal/unusual situations and can practice over and over so that muscle/brain memory takes over to help not hinder. There is no way a Meet Director can know what training someone has if there is NO national training plan that includes some type of hands on simulation.

So in the swiss cheese model, your risk mitigation plan does a tremendous amount to try and block some holes, but there will always be some small holes. The direction of launch is another layer, the tow release is another and on and on. One of the other pilots in the comp that is also an airline pilot told me that it could have just as easily been him. Unfortunately the holes aligned for another pilot.

Bruno

Go fuck yourself.

Davis Straub - 2016/05/28 14:42:18 UTC

Bruno,

We have always known that the initial part of the aerotow on the cart and just after coming off the cart is the most dangerous part of the tow.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Cragin Shelton - 2011/09/03 23:57:33 UTC

Nice Reference Citation

Do you REALLY think that there has been no progress in knowledge about the practical applied physics and engineering of hang gliding in 37 years? OR that an early, 3+ decade old, information book written by a non-pilot is a solid reference when you have multiple high experience current instructors involved in the discussion?

This is essentially the same as a hillside or mountain launch where the proximity to the ground and the chance for turbulence are the major issues.

Along with Christopher LeFay's Five Second Rule which prohibits you from touching control bar until you're safely clear of the hard stuff.

Given the wide variation in hillside launches and their conditions I have always felt that aerotow launching is much safer in general.

Thanks bigtime for doing everything possible to keep the gap narrowed to the maximum extent possible.

They are certainly a great deal more standardized.

And nobody is better at standardizing things than Davis Dead-On Straub, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, and the rest of the Flight Park Mafia.

In this case we had two different types of Dragonflies and the two stroke version requires that the pilot stay on the cart longer than the higher power 4 stroke version.

Oh. So you're saying that the lower powered tug...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3661
Flying the 914 Dragonfly

Jim Rooney - 2008/12/06 20:01:49 UTC

You will only ever need full throttle for the first fifty feet of a tandem tow. Don't ever pull a solo at full throttle... they will not be able to climb with you. You can tow them at 28 mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weaklinks will go left and right.

...wasn't as safe as the four stroke.

In fact you can even pull up the cart off the ground to make sure you are flying with the lower power Dragonfly.

No...

16-1903


...shit.

Jeff was being towed by the 2 stroke version.

Oh. So if they'd been using a 914 at full power...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

Which brings us to the reason to have a 914 in the first place... you need one.
Something made you get a 914 instead of a 582. 914s are horribly expensive to own and maintain. If you own one, you need it... it's a safety thing. Short runways, tall trees, whatever. You've got a 914 to increase your safety margin. So when it comes down to my safety or having a conversation, we're going to have a conversation. Wether you chose to adjust is then up to you.

...they could probably have safely cleared the trees without the hard right that put Jeff into the lockout he had zero chance of terminating on the cheap bent pin shit you required him to go up on.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TUGS/message/1150
[TUGS] aerotow instruction was Re: Tug Rates

Dave Scott - 2011/02/10 20:25:31 UTC

Actually up in the northwest, it's a bit more expensive.

Tow rating is $200, including tows and instruction.

Tandems are $125 each. So, it's actually closer to $450 for a tow rating in the northwest. That's if you can somehow convince them to do a tandem as the park is not tandem friendly and makes the tow much more dangerous for everyone, especially the tug pilot.

The thing you have to realize is, adding the tandem requirement to the mix really increased the danger for everyone. For certain flight parks it was safer without this tandem requirement, not even counting the increased costs. Not every flight park is Quest with unlimited room to bail out in an emergency situation. The latest rules are really sad for our sport, but I suppose something is better than nothing.

Tracy Tillman - 2011/02/10 20:35:43 UTC

How do the sailplane clubs do it in the northwest? Have they found dual flights for aerotow instruction more dangerous than solo flights for aerotow instruction? Explain why you think the situation for hang gliding aerotow instruction is different.

Dave Scott - 2011/02/10 20:53:22 UTC

The sailplane clubs do it with a tandem, they always have. I don't think you can compare them, it's apples to oranges.

The situation you have with hang gliding is... Couple a Dragonfly with a 582 engine, and you can tow fine with a single pilot and get a good climb rate, however with a Tandem you have a terrible climb rate. Now combine this terrible rate with an already small field and you have a situation that could lead to a death or serious injury of either party. All it takes is one engine out and you're done!

My thoughts are it's safer to NOT require a tandem in this situation.

So, I can already hear the argument on the regulators side. Just get a 912 engine and or a bigger field. Sure, that would solve it, but I think you will find that if that is where it has to go, then it will just be another tow park shutting down.

When I got my rating at this tow field, it was a hundred and fifty bucks, now it's going to be over four hundred bucks, if it's even possible at all now. It may be that anyone on the west coast will have to fly to Quest to get this done.

Larry Jorgensen - 2011/02/17 13:37:47 UTC

It did not come from the FAA, it came from a USHPA Towing Committee made up of three large aerotow operations that do tandems for hire.
Appalling.

http://www.kitestrings.org/post2523.html#p2523

But if you'd grounded the 582s it would've taken a lot longer to get all the gliders up on task - the task that was scrubbed when you killed Jeff because you tried to tow him up on an underpowered tug from a compromised runway on cheap shit equipment.

The Russian Mouth Release is a good approach to dealing with whatever happens during the initial part of the tow. Out whack? Open your mouth. I have tried for 10 years to get one. So far no luck.

So because for ten years you were incapable of getting ahold of a Kaluzhin release or getting anything comparable produced at Quest...

http://www.ipopam.com/tag/questair

http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2902/33534867310_6715fa8004_o.png

...another pilot had to die because he was born with only TWO hands.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Aleksey Vilkov - 2015/06/04 09:40:04 UTC

something better

Hundreds of releases with a standard mouth release ))

Davis Straub - 2015/06/06 01:34:24 UTC

As I have pointed out previously, I'm sure that the mouth releases are just fine. The mini barrel releases have been working just fine over the last month (my most recent experience) with well over a thousand releases in three competition.

Aleksey Vilkov - 2015/06/06 19:22:53 UTC

video please

Aleksey Vilkov - 2015/06/09 06:23:47 UTC

Actually I have the backup pin mounted in the right side.





The barrel release is better and I will istall it for next flight

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/296/18734858395_5859cbb794_o.jpg

Aleksey Vilkov - 2015/06/10 05:59:46 UTC

barrel release w/o pin

And yes, mouth release is for sale. I sent to you PM.

Aleksey Vilkov - 2015/08/03 06:17:16 UTC

Statik line towing with two stage release.
You can see here two ordinary releases. The first one is Russian Mouth Release (RMR), the second one is barrel type release made with webbing and short peace of pipe.
So, pilot is taking off with RMR and after reaching about 150-200 meters he is connecting second release with the bridle below speedbar to the ring in the end of line using ordinary carabiner. Of course he is immediately releasing RMR and continuing towing with barrel release.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJLG3oUbkEg

Davis Straub - 2015/08/03 13:05:54 UTC

Perfect.

Aleksey Vilkov - 2015/08/10 08:55:38 UTC

RMR action

http://ozreport.com/19.161
Two stage mouth/barrel release

Davis Straub - 2015/08/12 21:58:54 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43636
Two stage mouth/barrel release

Davis Straub - 2015/08/12 20:58:54 UTC

Combining the safest aerotow release with the next safest

Saerog - 2015/08/14 08:52:21 UTC

Me and my twin brother use very similar system for quite a while. Works really great because near the ground you are much safer.

Aleksey Vilkov - 2015/08/14 11:56:43 UTC

I would like to add that we are using RMR not only for aerotowing, but also for all kind of ground towing including platform and dolly launch.
Please take a look to here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYt9p9ihZX8

12-01125
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8809/18382342111_f94a5114a9_o.png


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8760/18376683312_0194935885_o.png
14-01405
and here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5xf8DY7rXg

Did you make the slightest effort to get one through Aleksey?

Davis Straub - 2016/05/28 14:47:57 UTC

Apparently we will have four Russian Mouth Releases soon.

Wow! You tried for TEN YEARS to get ONE with NO LUCK! And then less than a week after you kill another comp pilot on your cheap bent pin shit you're able to get FOUR of them on their way to you. How tragic! How cruel the gods are to the people constantly striving to make the sport as safe as possible for all of us.

Davis Straub - 2016/05/28 15:39:13 UTC

Spoke with Oleg Bondarchuk today about Russian Mouth Releases. He doesn't like them. They used them when they first started aerotowing.
He says that they are uncomfortable to use for the whole tow with your clenched teeth. They can pull your teeth out.

Fuck that then. Totally moronic to fly something that can pull your teeth out. I hope they get turned back at Customs. A tiny chance of getting killed the way Steve Elliot, Zack Marzec, Jeff Bohl did versus a certainty of getting a tooth pulled out every two or three tows. That's just plain fuckin' nuts.

That would be nice if you had a mouth release for the first few hundred feet of the tow.

- Bullshit. It's the first few hundred feet of the tow when you're most likely to get teeth pulled out.

- The first few hundred feet?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Davis Straub - 2013/02/13 15:45:22 UTC

IMHO aerotowing is relatively safe compared with foot launching. I would certainly like to make it safer. What we would all like to know is what could we do to make it safer.

Mouth releases for the first three seconds of the tow

How did we get from the first three seconds of the tow - when the glider's still on the fuckin' cart - to a minimum of three hundred feet and well after you've had another tooth pulled out?

- So again... What was it that made you decide to ban this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8312402264


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh3-uZptNw0


under the terms of your Quest Air Open Risk Maximization Plan?

Don Arsenault - 2016/05/28 15:48:50 UTC
Toronto

I am interested in one. PM me and let me know if available.

You can't get one through Mike Robertson? Hang gliding's...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27044
Here's a scary one for ya!

Don Arsenault - 2012/09/05 01:09:41 UTC

It was not a weak link break, and I don't believe the release touched the control bar. I got a crap release. That's all there is to it. I never ever had a double release on any of the training harnesses. When I switched to the spaghetti, and bought this release, it double released on me all the time, but I usually don't transition until at least 200', so it's always been a non-event. Annoying, but a non-event. I told them there was something wrong with the release, and they didn't believe me. Thought I was too new, and it was my technique. Until this flight. The release just let go. My hands never left the down tubes, and it did not touch the base bar. It was the final straw. If I let the video keep rolling, you would have seen me quickly lose my cool, and yell and curse and march into the office to demand a new release. I got one, and my next flight went great.

...Patron Saint of Safety?

Brian Scharp - 2016/05/28 17:11:34 UTC

Davis Straub - 2016/05/28 14:42:18 UTC

I have tried for 10 years to get one. So far no luck.

10 years of wishing real hard for one to appear?

Ten years of sabotaging every effort to get anything half decent or better into the air on any scale.

Davis Straub - 2016/05/28 17:56:22 UTC

No, contacted Russians, no luck.

All of them? Aleksey? Aleksey's last effort to get these things into circulation on your rotten little locked down rag was 2015/08/14 11:56:43 UTC was a bit over a eight months plus a week prior to you motherfuckers slaughtering Jeff Bohl and putting the usual information lockdown into place and revving up the ass covering machinery.

Seems like there might be reasons for that.

They have difficulty talking...

01-001
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7375/12981378134_6d44d81e61_o.png

07-300
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7441/12980980635_a22762812d_o.png

10-307
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1660/26132155836_82b94d6550_o.png

11-311
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2550/12981131483_dde259c80d_o.png

15-413
http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3141/12981414774_e6ddd85c13_o.png


...what with all the teeth they've had pulled out.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34390
Tragedy at 2016 Quest Air Open

Joe Faust - 2016/05/28 22:00:04 UTC

Voice activation?
"RELEASE"
Yell the command. The device then releases the line.
One could practice the command.
http:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON49tzoURNc

Joe...

I was seriously considering banning you following your last Kite Strings post. I have neither the time, energy, nor inclination to wade through the obfuscatory language to confirm my suspicion that this submission is as certifiably insane as I know untold scores of your other ones - including the above - are.

You must have posted thousands of ideas to advance hang gliding without having ever once actually put anything into the air. Please don't ever post any more brilliant ideas that haven't gotten into the air in working model form or better.

http://www.energykitesystems.net/Lift/hgh/TadEareckson/
Tad Eareckson

Your legacy will be enduring, Tad. Your energy has been providing synergy that has been affecting the slow evolution of towing safety in kite hang gliding. The lateral emotional challenges have their play, but the mechanical servants persist; thank you for feeding those servants.

If my legacy will be enduring it'll be because of a lot of grinding work by a small contingent of like-minded individuals to destroy malignant entities like u$hPa, Quest, Dennis, Matt, Greblo, Davis, Jack, Bob, Sam, Rick Masters, Tracy, Ryan, Rooney... If you don't have something nasty to say about these motherfuckers then please don't say anything at all.
---
2022/06/17 13:30:00 UTC

Nah, it doesn't have to have gone up in the air. But it DOES have to offer SOME advantage over existing stuff that's gone up in the air or been modeled.

This thing? After what I'VE developed and flown and helped Antoine duplicate?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34390
Tragedy at 2016 Quest Air Open

Dave Gills - 2016/05/28 23:03:39 UTC

I have been using a Russian mouth release since I started.

So how many teeth have you had pulled out so far?

It was good for me to do that because I had a lockout on my 4th AT.

Better than having a lockout on your last AT - as per Jeff Bohl.

I panicked and aborted tow in time to regain control but it took all my strength with both arms to roll the glider back to trim.

Bullshit. You just thought you could fix a bad thing and didn't wanna start over. Didn't release before there was a problem like you were supposed to. Undoubtedly also using a Tad-O-Link 'cause you valued convenience over safety.

Here is a video of my modified 2 point release.

Pilot and glider - THREE point.

(yes it will work 2-point as a primary w/ a longer cable)

Yeah? So if the shit really works then how come we're not all already using it everywhere?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpYdb-aIn6I

Davis Straub - 2016/05/29 00:20:39 UTC

Dave, please show us your setup.

Dave showed us his set-up on the posting date of that video - 2015/11/04 - over six and a half months prior to Jeff Bohl's totally unnecessary and easily preventable death at your Quavis pecker measuring contest on 2016/05/21. Publicized it on Kite Strings with his 2015/11/04 12:38:32 UTC post:

http://www.kitestrings.org/post8620.html#p8620
Kaluzhin Release as Primary w/ 2 Pt. Bridle Setup

Kite Strings is largely dedicated to the destruction of you and your pigfucker buddies at Quest. I'da thunk that you'd have wanted to keep tuned in a little better than you seem to have.

I've linked to three different setups previously on this thread.

Yeah, Davis. You're totally amazing when it comes to linking to different things and different threads. "Link" is your middle name.

Dave Gills - 2016/05/29 13:32:35 UTC

I sent Aleksey Vilkov a message about getting ten more releases.

Wow! One Kaluzhin release for every year Davis hasn't been able to acquire ANY. And just a couple weeks too late to do Jeff any good.

We were working on importing them earlier but there was so little interest that we gave up the effort.

Oh. So you're saying that neither Davis nor any of his pigfucker buddies at Quest made the slightest effort to acquire anything from Aleksey in response to all those Davis Show posts I just referenced with my 2016/06/07 10:26:21 UTC?

I sold two and gave one to Felipe Amunategui for him to evaluate.

- Bummer. Felipe now only has his living room in which to evaluate it.

- What would be the point in evaluating it? He'd obviously been evaluating the Quallaby crap that just claimed another victim two and a half weeks ago for decades and found nothing meriting the slightest critical comment.

- Fuck that son of a bitch.

I'll see if I can get some more.

Oh. So a miserable little muppet such as yourself thinks he can do better in a matter of weeks than Davis Dead-On Straub - who's been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who - was able to do in a DECADE. Talk about ARROGANCE.

I have two now.

Two more than the Quest Air Opens One and Two staff and competitors combined had. Amazing.

One is set up for 1-point (pro tow)...

Like the last two Quest fatalities.

...and one is for 2-point (slower trimmed gliders)

The faggy little muppets who wanna fly gliders in CERTIFIED configuration. (They're not for slower trimmed gliders. They're to trim ALL gliders faster in order to maintain a safe pitch control range.)

Davis Straub - 2016/05/29 00:20:39 UTC

Dave, please show us your setup. I've linked to three different setups previously on this thread.

I don't think I'm allowed to link to Kite Strings on this forum.

Or...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27494
The exciting bits

Steve Davy - 2012/04/27 01:55:17 UTC

Why did you delete my post?

Davis Straub - 2012/04/27 02:42:02 UTC

Tad's name.

...on Davis's - where Davis deleted Christopher's gold mine of a smoking gun post on this incident and where Davis obviously isn't permitting discussion.

Go ahead and link to Kite Strings. Jack has fucked himself with all his bullshit comments on Rooney Links, foot landings, any dangerous bullshit you wanna name. People are openly linking to my "gun is always loaded" and crash analysis stuff now and Jack can't do shit about it 'cause we're still in a bloodbath period and too many people will see him for what he really is if he does.

haddieman - 2016/05/29 13:59:20 UTC
Nashville

I would be very interested in the mouth release with the extended cable in Dave Gill's...

Gills'.

...photo. It appears to be intended to be used as a release for 3-point...

Get fucked.

... towing but I think it would work for pro-towing...

Get fucked.

...if you put the mouth part of the release in the boot of your harness.

Get fucked.

That way you could operate it with your feet by straightening your legs and standing in the boot of your harness. To release just bend your knees. No risk of pulling out your teeth...

There IS NO risk of pulling your teeth out - idiot. Davis pulled that out of his ass to give him and his pigfucker Quest buddies cover for having made ZERO effort for having safe and sane equipment standards.

...and your jaw won't get tired.

But THIS:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/sets/72057594141352219/
Aerotow Release System

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318603266/


is lunatic Rube Goldberg bullshit.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

John Glime - 2009/04/13 18:09:32 UTC
Salt Lake City

Not being constructive? There is one person who has put more thought and time into releases than anyone. That person is Tad. He explains the pros and cons to every release out there. I gave you the link to more release information than the average person could ever digest, and I didn't get a thank you. Just you bitching that we aren't being constructive. What more could you want? He has created something that is a solution, but no one is using it... apparently you aren't interested either. So what gives??? What do you want us to tell you? Your concerns echo Tad's concerns, so why not use his system? Every other system out there has known flaws.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12403
weak link table

ian9toes - 2009/06/14 15:18:37 UTC
Gold Coast

I strongly disagree with banning the one guy who has the most knowledge about safety issues involving what I believe is the most dangerous part of our sport. I hear someone dies every year from towing. I hope SG bites his tongue in the interest of public safety. Maybe just changing the heading of the post to Blatant plug for aerotow weaklink. Does anyone really think he stands to get rich out of selling these, I don't think so. I suspect his main motivation is to save some lives and to not have all his hard work gone to waste. Keep the cocky bastard on I say.

Nice thing about all these brilliant ideas constantly oozing up from the Jack and Davis Shows - they don't have one single individual who will do so much as bend a single coat hanger to try to put anything that smacks of an idea into the air.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34390
Tragedy at 2016 Quest Air Open

Davis Straub - 2016/05/29 14:03:43 UTC

Cory, sounds reasonable. I hope that you can trial the foot method for us.

I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that he will, Davis. These mainstream glider forums are SEETHING with some of the most creative, innovative, talented, energetic individuals the like of aviation has ever seen. I'm sure that he'll have a clean bulletproof implementation up before the end of this weekend.

Dave Gills - 2016/05/29 14:24:22 UTC

haddieman - 2016/05/29 13:59:20 UTC

...it would work for pro-towing if you put the mouth part of the release in the boot of your harness.

This probably won't make much sense to you now.

What? Two plus two equals four?

If you had one in your hand, I think you would see that it is ill suited for that application.

Name something that ISN'T. There are REASONS that after the better part of half a century of hang glider towing there's never been a foot actuated tow release.

The one with the longer cable has a modification for comfort.
I bought a mouth guard from WalMart, cut 2 small pieces & attached them with dental floss.

After having how many teeth pulled out?

I fly with the "shit switch" in side of my mouth and it's much better.
After a few flights I got quite used to it and it doesn't bother me now.

Shove all that reality rot and your know-it-all attitude up your ass - Tad Clone.

Davis Straub - 2016/05/29 14:38:56 UTC

Mouth guard sounds like a great idea.

Wow! ANOTHER great idea that a nobody muppet had BEFORE Jeff was killed.

Steph Curry would approve.

How 'bout Jeff Bohl? And/Or his family?

Timothy Ward - 2016/05/30 15:29:02 UTC

Still, haddieman's idea of a foot-operated release sounds like it would have some merit for aerotow.

ABSOLUTELY! Let's start holding our breath now in anticipation of...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11998
Tad Report...

Paul Hurless - 2009/05/15 01:43:43 UTC

Yes, I can do better. It took me all of two minutes to come up with a simple (darn, the KISS principal keeps popping up) system that only has two moving parts; the cord to actuate it and the actual release that holds onto the tow line. It's almost completely internal in the control bar and a downtube, only emerging at the control bar for the hand to actuate it and at the top of the downtube where it goes to the release mechanism. No pulleys, springs, or bungees needed. If you are doubting me I could send you a sketch.

...the maiden flight.

Leaves the hands and mouth free to operate a radio to communicate with the tug.

For what purpose? To tell him you're locking out and your foot actuated release isn't working?

Doesn't work for foot launch, of course.

As far as I'm concerned foot launch...

01-021
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/524/19405838072_44140f7d9a_o.png

10-525
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/435/19224482318_2da3f48afe_o.png

12-907
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/295/19224474340_099a8130e1_o.png


...doesn't work for foot launch - times fifty for aero.

Joe Faust - 2016/05/30 18:10:31 UTC

Voice command air vehicle control system
US 4725956 A
ABSTRACT http://www.google.com/patents/US4725956
A voice command air vehicle control system for use by an operator with a remotely piloted vehicle utilizes a voice recognizer for converting spoken commands into machine compatible control signals which are transmitted to the vehicle. Also disclosed is the selection of particular verbal commands for use with the voice recognizer which increase the acceptance probability of the spoken command by the system.

Glad you're posting that over there, Joe.

Joe Faust - 2016/05/31 03:45:34 UTC

Voice Activated Release

The World's most reliable voice activated clay target release system for Trap/DTL.

Don't even THINK of posting it over here.

Jim Steel - 2016/05/31 04:40:30 UTC

Does it maintain manual release in case I lose my voice?

Joe Faust - 2016/05/31 04:52:39 UTC

Good question, Thermalfinder.
How often do speaking humans lose their voice?

How many critical aircraft control systems can you name that are voice actuated? Feel free to cite examples from dirigibles, hang and para gliders, conventional fixed wing gliders and powered, drones, choppers, spacecraft.

If a medical issue is ongoing, one might choose not to enter kiting to HG.

You mean the way you've chosen not to enter kiting to HG - whatever the fuck that means?

Having TWO systems hands-fee is my target.

We'll be looking forward to seeing the video of Sam test flying it.

Ty Taylor - 2016/06/01 03:49:19 UTC

Good times with Jeff B. @ the Houston Hang Gliding and Paragliding Assn. 2015 L/D Contest

http://vimeo.com/145804570
HHPA L/D 2015
Zack C - 2015/11/15 21:40 UTC
dead

So the founder of Kite Strings was still undrowned and well as of the 2015/11/15 21:40 UTC time stamp. Also 2016/04/24 04:14 UTC:

http://vimeo.com/163966319

---
2022/06/17 14:00:00 UTC

No trace of Joe's posts left in this Jack Show thread. Suspect Jack wiped out everything he ever posted.