Releases

[Steve Davy]

I think that you just did demolish the incompetent pile of shit there, Tad. Nice work!

[Tad Eareckson]

Thanks. I ALMOST skipped over that post. I've been really overloaded for a long time and when I'd worked my way up to that point I started giving it a skim and totally glazed over. I've read enough disinformation pieces since starting in this sport over three dozen years ago to last a hundred lifetimes. Just more pseudo-intellectual drivel from Boychick. But then after working on the next post - from Bruno - I felt obligated to go back for the requisite dissection. Holy shit how close we came to missing that massive smoking gun.

But that needs to be dealt with on The Jack Show where EVERYBODY'S gonna see it and Boychick will HAFTA respond to it.

This is how we totally demolished Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney and his groupies. Team effort. Gang raped him and then some. Humiliation which he will take to his grave.

http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8377/29923344142_d17324af6b_o.png


And that son of a bitch needs to be continually kicked as he's down and for a couple generations beyond the grave in order that his ilk and groupies keep getting the message in no uncertain terms.

P.S. Was totally wasted by the time I'd posted the previous. Just did a more competent proofread and made a handful of minor fixes, amendments, clarifications.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34646
Are you satisfied with flex wing handling qualities?

Bruno Schnedl - 2016/08/24 17:51:08 UTC

Ryan, that was very well written...

Yeah. Total gold mine.

...and I agree with almost all of what you wrote.

How 'bout the part at which he moves the Jeff Bohl lockout fatality from the smooth light air of the Quest Air open in May to the brutal stuff in the Big Spring Nationals in August? Just minor, irrelevant discrepancies?

I agree with your point that we can't see the rough air, but we can expect it. And negative reinforcement is true in many things but extreme sports...

...like soaring hang gliders within their placard limitations...

...really show the consequences.

'Specially when all the instructional, performance, equipment, safety SOPs are written and enforced by an aviation association that isn't in the business of safety - but rather in the business of covering its ass in all instances of gross incompetence and negligence.

Where I wrote about having to fly our butts off to stay behind the tug, was interpreted two ways by you...

One of those experts on towing who doesn't tow and has no fuckin' clue what he's talking about in general.

...and I would offer that there was a third way to look at it. That as rowdy as conditions were, we were able to safely launch into the sky.

Oh. You were able to LAUNCH SAFELY and didn't start getting seriously kicked around until you had plenty of altitude and getting kicked around didn't matter - like in mountain flying.

Sure some of us had to give it a few tries, but I would say that it was impressive how much control we "did" have in those conditions.

How many hands did you have on the control frame and where were they positioned while you were exercising...

54-15427
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1552/25867200361_2dcbe43041_o.png


...all that impressive control?

This goes back to one of my comments earlier, knowledge and personal responsibility are our basis for decision making. How we cumulate knowledge is by pushing our knowledge limits.

1. Since the hang gliding instruction we get totally sucks at all levels.

2. Give me a single example of an improved outcome due to all this pushing of limits of and cumulating knowledge. How is that bullshit the tiniest bit relevant to the fatal lockout crash that's the central issue in this thread?
- pro toad
- bent pin easily reachable placebo release
- continuing reliance on Davis Link 2.0 as a bacon saver
- crosswind/short runway
- underpowered tug
- fuckin' incompetent Dragonfly driver who can fix whatever's going on back there by giving the glider the rope
- quick easy reach to an unsecured camera

A reasonably good rule of thumb is that you need three things going wrong simultaneously to kill a plane. That's SEVEN issues - all but one of them BY CHOICE before anything gets off the ground. Throw in that last instinctive/reflexive response to a minor distraction issue and the camel's back is broken.

I'm looking at the casualty list from the Bloodbath Period and some years before. Give me ONE INCIDENT that required anything beyond 2.0 level skills, knowledge, judgment, common sense to totally negate / leave the "pilot" walking away smelling like a rose.

You write crap like this and you leave the novices with the impression that they're never gonna be able to really grasp and deal with these simple issues until after they've gotten a couple thousand hours under their belts / afraid of all these fake nearly unfathomable issues and therefore unable fly calmly and competently.

But we also need to make sure we have all the data at hand.

1. Like perhaps where, when, under what circumstances, why fatal crashes ACTUALLY HAPPEN?
2. Which is where Mitch Shipley and his flight park buddies come into play.

That was why I put out my mouth release findings.

Thanks. We'd have been totally unable to watch the videos of the Eastern European guys doing what they've been doing since the beginning of time and drawing any useful conclusions without your mouth release findings.

My personal feeling is that the barrel release is a perfect example of rolling a single die.

Kinda like Russian (how ironic) roulette? The game that Jeff Bohl lost just once on 2016/05/21?

Most everyone that uses that system all say that they have never had a problem.

And...

- They're all too fucking stupid to look at any of the scenarios in which people have died. And they all smoke three packs a day 'cause they've never died of lung cancer and can't imagine that smoking could pose the least health issue.

- I guess it helps when u$hPa operatives like Ryan report and comment on them with stuff they keep stored up their assess that have less than zero foundations in reality.

Does that mean there isn't a problem lurking? I don't think the mouth release is the panacea...

1. No, that would be the...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/11 18:59:06 UTC

I have no fear of bent pins.

Why aren't straight pins used?
That's easy. They can't be used with anything but thin lines.
They also can't be made with anything but thin lines.

Tad loves to forget that I've actually gotten one of his to jam.
NOTHING is perfect kids.

Straight pin releases can work, but they're not the panacea that these guys are claiming.

...straight pin barrel release that some of the guys from Tad's Hole In The Ground incorporate into their systems as non-emergency secondaries.

2. What? You think that there might be some advantage to having an upper bridle attachment to align the thrust vector to permit something resembling normal full control range?

The guys on the OTHER end of the rope seem to attach some degree of importance to that concept.

http://www.zenadsl2877.zen.co.uk/mf-aerotow/8-GermanDF-AWier.jpg


Look how much extra structure they build on and have in the airflow to achieve that goal.

...but we need to do some more research and maybe even some re-engineering but the concept is valid.

1. No shit.

2. List some examples of hang glider towing equipment that's been re-engineered over the years/decades in response to research to make it BETTER. I can bury you with examples of it being made WORSE.

The other pilot that was doing research with me...

John Maloney. Also Houston.

...is an airline pilot as well and his comment to me after Jeff's accident rings true....

Pity he didn't make it BEFORE Jeff's "accident".

..."the airline industry along with the FAA would never stand for this many accidents of the same nature" i.e. tow launch deaths.

The airline industry isn't a monopoly controlled by Tim Herr and accountable to NO ONE.

NMERider - 2016/08/24 18:06:15 UTC

I thought that the following assertions were well worth repeating...

Ryan Voight - 2016/08/24 16:48:54 UTC

...flex wing hang gliders have perfectly adequate handling characteristics... as long as we respect the limitations inherent in the aircraft...

...IT IS THE DUTY OF THE PILOT TO OPERATE WITHIN THESE LIMITATIONS...

...The accountability for whatever happens to us, is ours to own. And the better we accept, respect, embrace this... the safer our flight choices and activities become!

Me too, Jonathan!

I have no doubt whatsoever that after all the really careful Jack Show readers out there wade through all Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight's drivel they will start respecting the limitations in their aircraft, be diligent to execute their DUTY as PILOTS to OPERATE WITHIN THESE LIMITATIONS, and finally understand that the accountability for whatever happens to us, is ours to own. And the better we accept, respect, embrace this... the safer our flight choices and activities become!

Notice there hasn't been ONE SINGLE lockout fatality since Ryan graced us with this post? I see this post as the catalyst for finally pulling the sport out of the ever accelerating death spiral commercial hang gliding started us in about the time we switched from seated to prone harnesses. With Ryan once again posting on The Jack Show and Trump as President for the next four, eight, twelve, sixteen years I can't see where or how anybody could possibly go wrong.

From now on...

- When people are heading to launch and see cumies popping they'll realize how violently their aircraft may be tossed around, respect their inherent limitations, and tie them down and play checkers until things die down enough for that smooth sled run and nailed spot landing on the old Frisbee in the middle of the LZ that we all dream about.

- Safety committees will carefully scrutinize weather forecasts and scrub days when lapse rates are inordinately high. Remember, people of varying ages... The triangle will still be there tomorrow (Sunday, when you and your glider are back on the plane headed home to Trenton to resume your office job the next morning safe and sound.)

And we can FINALLY drop this moronic pursuit of improvement of towing equipment and instead spend our time MENTALLY PREPARING ourselves for making easy reaches to and prying open our tried and true bent pin pro toad releases so we'll be properly wired for action in the highly unlikely event that we fly into something nasty at fifty feet or make some other mistake that a REAL PILOT never would.

Jonathan, if you really wanna do something to moderate fatality rates a bit and be remembered well by aviation history then start by helping us drive a stake through the heart of this duplicitous little motherfucker.

[<BS>]

Just say no to release problems.

[NMERider]

....Jonathan, if you really wanna do something to moderate fatality rates a bit and be remembered well by aviation history then start by helping us drive a stake through the heart of this duplicitous little motherfucker.

I think a nice coating of Crazy Glue on his keyboard should suffice.

[Tad Eareckson]

No. I LOVE it when dickheads type. Just amend things with a couple ambulance rides...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8377/29923344142_d17324af6b_o.png


...well covered by the mainstream press. Nothing like reality to give this sport the reality checks of which it's always in such desperate need.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC

You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.

02-00820
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7252/27169646315_9af9a62298_o.png


I love it the way when people say stuff on the web they can never take it back or deny having said it.

Don't wanna hit Ryan with a post calling him on his fiction writing?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!

Ryan Voight - 2012/09/26 20:05:16 UTC

I can (and have) run across a field and steer the glider without ever touching the DT's by simply changing the direction I run. At the beach (or South Side) I like to practice kiting my wing with no hands, and just moving my hips (and stepping if necessary) left/right.

Pulling the hang loop to the right is pulling the hang loop to the right- glider don't care if you're dangling beneath it or still touching the ground. As long as your mains are tight, you can weight shift it!

Make us a video of what ACTUALLY happens when somebody weight shift controls a glider using the Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight no-hands technique.

[Tad Eareckson]

Continuing from:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post9608.html#p9608

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34685
Wanted "Winch Tow Release"

Peter Birren - 2016/09/06 16:32:17 UTC

Peter Birren emerges from the dead. His inbred cult forum has been dead for close to ten months.

The Linknife is still available and is still only $20.00.

A twenty dollar answer to all conceivable problems in all flavors of towing. What a bargain.

Cuts the weaklink with ease.

While you're easily flying the glider through the lockout emergency with the other hand.

Weaklinks are cheap.

Not for this:

37-23223
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9655904048_89cce6423a_o.png


pro toad motherfucker. Its inconvenience side effect cost him his life. Also cost thousands of dickheads around the planet their reputations. (Peter's included. Never heard of the Zack Marzec inconvenience fatality 'cause that makes him as full of shit as we've always known him to be.)

http://www.birrendesign.com/linknife.html
Linknife - nearly foolproof release

Great advertisement, Peter. NEARLY foolproof. Exactly what I'm looking for in equipment upon which I'm trusting my life. This carabiner HARDLY EVER fails. And then ONLY when it's heavily loaded.

What's on the other end of that little piece of string, Peter? What makes the Linknife go while the pilot's busy fighting a lockout with BOTH hands? (Pay careful attention to what the motherfuckers AREN'T showing you.)

Peter Birren - 2016/09/06 16:33:48 UTC

Stallpolicer - 2016/09/05 17:50:25 UTC

I've been thinking of starting a thread about types of towing releases available.

Along with releases are the different types of bridles...

- Bridle is just a synonym for release. Ask Davis if you don't believe me.

- Use a Skyting Bridle like Peter does. Autocorrects for roll. The more out of whack you get the better it works. Don't really need an emergency release 'cause the system's pretty much lockout-proof, And so obviously hands off the bar is a nonissue.

...and different types of tow systems. Not all are interchangeable.

Just make sure that whatever release you use is within really easy reach.

Dave Gills - 2016/09/06 17:15:39 UTC

Peter Birren - 2016/09/06 16:32:17 UTC

The Linknife is still available and is still only $20.00. Cuts the weaklink with ease.

Yep, but only a trained mongoose can catch the release string and pull it for you.

Make sure you give it plenty of treats on the morning of a flying day. You don't want that thing pissed off at you when the shit hits the fan.

I sell Russian Mouth Releases for $120.

Fuck that. It's not within easy reach and how are you supposed to cut a weak link with it?

PM for more info.

Peter Birren - 2016/09/06 17:25:21 UTC

Well that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Donnell Hewett's Skyting Theory makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Never saw you getting bent out of shape about it.

Dave Gills - 2016/09/06 17:49:42 UTC

You could get another chute container and carry your mongoose in there for when you want to quickly deploy him.

This is what the little release string is doing when you want to find it in a hurry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T04S-9HPLc


Somewhere there is a video of a really exciting lockout while using a Skyting/Linknife combo.
I can't find it.
[sad face]

This:

007-005610
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5508/14490283185_402236d19f_o.png

008-123618
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3861/14510390143_16d34e41b0_o.png

009-010014
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3890/14280182547_39f4367200_o.png

010-010017
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5584/14489068902_f3676f9275_o.png

011-010020
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2911/14486916071_244712077b_o.png


close enough?

Peter Birren - 2016/09/06 17:56:04 UTC

Shame you didn't get proper training in setting up a release.

It's a shame six year olds don't get proper training on setting up the brake systems on their bicycles.

The pull string should never be unattached/loose.

What...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Weaklinks

Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC

You trying to tell me the pilot had time to release? Not a prayer.

I know about this type of accident because it happened to me, breaking 4 ribs and my larynx... and I was aerotowing using a dolly. The sh*t happened so fast there was no room for thought much less action. But I wasn't dragged because the weaklink did its job and broke immediately on impact.

...difference does it make? You can't get to it because it's writhing around like a snake in major evasive mode or because it's properly set up? Either way you slam in at max possible tension.

In my thousand tows, and in the thousands of tows I've witnessed, I've never had nor seen anything like this.

Check out Peter Holloway's operation (above). (Same first name. You guys related?)

Dave Gills - 2016/09/06 18:05:03 UTC

Well holy smokes...I saw it on my fourth winch tow.
Dude almost failed to release and it was tied on his shoulder.
Just as it says here
http://www.birrendesign.com/LKStatic.html
[BTW...I meant Hewett not Skyting]

Synonyms. Also two to one, "center of mass".

Mike Bomstad - 2016/09/06 18:24:56 UTC

Davis Straub - 2016/09/05 14:45:13 UTC

Thanks. I linked to that video previously and am "happy" to be reminded of it.

No worries...

Fuck no. It's DAVIS. Davis never worries about anything. Mostly he's just happy with things.

...there is so much out there, its hard to keep track.

Yeah, just another one of those hang gliding videos...

http://www.kitestrings.org/topic81.html
2013/06/15 - Tres Pinos - jammed release
14 posts, 662 hits

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line
125 posts, 5866 hits

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap
145 posts, 26958 hits

http://www.hang-gliding.com
Mission Soaring Center
.....
Prequel to the 2016/04/03 Nancy Tachibana Mission State-Of-The-Art Equipment fatality.

(I thought it was from a youtube video until I couldn't find it there)

You thought the Aussie Method was the end-of-story solution to unhooked launches.

Peter Birren - 2016/09/06 18:31:18 UTC

I'm confused. If the pilot had the pull string attached to his shoulder, how could it have "snaked" per the garden hose video?
BTW, the Hewett 2:1 bridle -is- the Skyting bridle. Don Hewett created the name Skyting for static line towing.

http://www.birrendesign.com/rhgpa_criteria.html

RHGPA: Hewett skying criteria

- Spelled "Skyting" wrong, Peter.
- Show me where it says anything about static line towing.

Dave Gills - 2016/09/06 19:07:04 UTC

I know what he told me.
He made two attempts to grab the string as he was losing control of the glider.
When he released the control bar with his hand to get ahold of it both times, the glider rolled and pitched violently and the little string started whipping around.
When he did finally get it in his hand, he had to pull several feet of slack out because the tow line was slack.

And who could've predicted anything like that happening from the ground beforehand.

That was my beginning of researching releases.

I began researching and developing releases almost as soon as I started getting into towing. Didn't take long to see that what was being put into the air was total crap and getting worse.

I bought every release I could find in order to test them.

I just took one look at the Bailey bent pin barrel "release" and identified it as moronic crap.

I did not yet have my AT rating and was afraid of the equipment I had seen.

Just ban it...

http://ozreport.com/9.009
2005 Worlds

Davis Straub - 2005/01/11

This type of release mechanism has been banned (at least for a short while) from the Worlds at Hay.

...(at least for a short while) from the Worlds at Hay. You'll be fine. Oh - And also increase your weak link safety rating to the point at which you can't get airborne.

Here is a partial collection from that time.

Something like THIS:

05-004000
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8197/29410305075_821af1def2_o.png


is all ya really need...

30-030129

33-030202


See how great it works?

45-040026


Wait a sec...

47-043325


Lemme getchya another one just like it for the same stellar performance.

Peter Birren - 2016/09/06 19:16:45 UTC

Thanks for clarifying and good for you to do the research you did, including getting a Linknife. Most of these, if properly aware and trained in their uses, will work as planned.

Make sure to keep it out of the grass. A little stubble will neutralize it. Probably also a good idea to steer clear of dust devils 'cause those things are always loaded with crap.

And ya gotta tie and install a new loop of magic fishing line each tow - successful or un. I've got better ways to spend my time on good soaring days.

However, if only "tried" once or twice, the ease or difficulty of use will be tough to uncover and learn.

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-martin-baker-ejection-seat-out-of-and-f4-phantom-jet-fighter-aircraft-28811932.html
Martin Baker Ejection Seat Out Of And F4 Phantom Jet Fighter Stock Photo, Royalty Free Image: 28811932 - Alamy

http://c8.alamy.com/comp/BJTDWG/martin-baker-ejection-seat-out-of-and-f4-phantom-jet-fighter-aircraft-BJTDWG.jpg


After you've been hit by the missile you pull the fuckin' handles, the canopy blows, the seat gets blasted out of the fighter, the pilot chute deploys, the package slows, the main canopy deploys, the pilot floats down to safety. Zero to sixty thousand feet.

To set up Peter's "system" to cut a piece of magic fishing line and operate it when everything's going right you need to complete a weekend long clinic.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306300488/


Anybody need a clinic or a fifty page owner's manual to figure out how to work my SYSTEM? And stuff the grass wherever you want - short of heroic effort.

Dave Gills - 2016/09/06 19:46:45 UTC

However, if only "tried" once or twice, the ease or difficulty of use will be tough to uncover and learn.

One failure and they ended up in the trash.

THIS:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Weaklinks

Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC

Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.

is a FAILURE. 100.00 percent PRE DICTABLE.

One by one they all ended up in the trash except for the Russian.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction

Jim Gaar - 2011/07/14 15:40:13 UTC

In a litigious society like the U.S. it's all part of the game. If you don't like it, you just take your ball and go home...

This is the reality of the sport we love. "Always the student". Learn how to use it or don't. You just missed out on what every American pilot already knows from birth.

We assume risk every day. Sometimes with a LMFP release. Hope you get your issues ironed out. The classified section is ready if you don't.

I think I threw away about 600 dollars worth of absolute garbage.

I wouldn't want my nephew driving a car that had a lap belt, a non-collapsible steering column and zero airbags even though thousands of us did it thousands of times and got away with it.

Oh. So you're a Rube Goldbergian.

Same goes for the Kotch device or whatever you call it.

Koch. Pronounced: "Coke".

Try hitting that sucker with your hand in the kill zone before you lawn dart.

I think it's pretty doable. Quick slap on your chest with your right hand and then back to the bar. Head and shoulders above anything else within easy reach. I think Jeff Bohl would've been OK with a Koch.

This:

04-200
http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3162/12980962685_5786637b33_o.png


total fucking bullshit... You're virtually always gonna get killed more quickly and violently making the easy reach. Just watch what the people in the best positions to gauge the situations actually do and don't.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34685
Wanted "Winch Tow Release"

NMERider - 2016/09/06 20:01:00 UTC

Actually that photo posted above...

162-20727
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8576/16673571861_3962427127_o.png

...came from Tad's...

Tad who? Tad Hurst? That u$hPa Board guy whose final participation in the sport was an unhooked launch at Torrey on 2006/05/05? What an asshole.

...Flickr account and his own forum post originally dated 2014/07/22 16:04:09 UTC.

That doesn't make sense.

There is no Kite Strings post time stamped 2014/07/22 16:04:09 UTC. There's one stamped 2014/07/22 22:04:09 UTC - precisely six hours later - but...

http://www.kitestrings.org/post6328.html#p6328
Weak links

...it has nothing to do with the Lin Lyons / Tres Pinos incident.

The time you cited suggests that you have your preferences set wrong in your User Control Panel. If it were Pacific time it would be seven or eight hours EARLIER - Daylight or Standard repectively.

That photo first appears at:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post4587.html#p4587
Releases
2013/06/28 19:17:09 UTC

The collection of 218 stills is found on the first page of the topic:
http://www.kitestrings.org/topic81.html
2013/06/15 - Tres Pinos - jammed release
2015/03/02 23:00:00 UTC

Several members of the Org including me also belong to that other forum which, in spite of all the vitriol does contain useful information.

- What? Vitriol can't useful information? What if Nancy had read the vitriol I'd posted about Mission Soaring Center and the douchebags who run and staff it? Would that have HURT her chances of survival?

I take great pride in having posted vitriol about one of its douchebags - Karl Allmendinger to be specific - well under 24 hours before they slaughtered her.

- Wouldn't belonging to that other forum make them "related people" and thus ineligible for continuing Jack Show membership?

Sadly, the sport of hang gliding continues to implode.

INEVITABLY.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25321
Stop the Stupids at the USHPA BOD meeting

Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/29 02:26:23 UTC

We can establish rules which we think will improve pilot safety, but our attorney is right. USHPA is not in the business of keeping pilots "safe" and it can't be. Stepping into that morass is a recipe for extinction of our association.

You got a Board of fuckin' dickheads elected by a population of fuckin' dickheads dancing to the tune of a nonpilot sleazebag attorney whose sole function is to shield "OUR" monopoly association from accountability for its chronic gross criminal negligence.

Mark G. Forbes and US hang gliding's top...

http://recreationrrg.com/rrrg-governance
Board and Governance | Recreation Risk Retention Group

Timothy Herr
Secretary and Risk Management Officer

...safety officer aren't talking about the extinction of the SPORT - they're talking about the extinction of their boys' club. Zero ability to grasp the big picture / long run concept that when you're mangling and killing flyers at unsustainable rates the sport will go extinct and the boys' club will shortly afterwards follow it down the toilet.

THIS:

Robert V. Wills - 1976/10

Because there was some feeling that people involved in hang gliding, and people observing the sport from outside, should become preoccupied with accidents and fatalities, the editor of Ground Skimmer asked me to refrain from submitting accident summaries on an every-issue basis.

is total fucking bullshit. FUCK anybody who isn't prooccupied with "accidents" and fatalies. Not being preoccupied with accidents and fatalities is an expression of contempt for the victims - not all of whom deserve contempt - and a sure-fire recipe for producing reruns at the same or increased rates.

If everyone were really preoccupied with the fatalities of:
- Kunio Yoshimura no one would ever again run off a ramp unhooked again
- Jeff Bohl no one would ever again get on a launch cart and hook up with appropriate cheap Industry Standard bent pin pro toad crap

Not long before it becomes a distant memory at the rate it's regressing.

It's already a distant memory for Yours Truly. Today a week shy of eight years since last clipping into a glider because Highland Aerosports suddenly decided they wanted to make Ridgely Airpark a safe place for people of varying ages to visit (and didn't appreciate the fact that I was making noises about talking to the FAA).

And now 26 days shy of a year since the last Rooney Link increased the safety of the Highland Aerosports towing operation so they're becoming a distant memory too. May they rot in hell.

FlyKC10 - 2016/09/06 20:12:42 UTC

Thanks for all the info but I've been using the two stage release and really like it.

Didn't want to cause a "what's the best release thread"

OK then... How 'bout a "what's the WORST release thread" thread? Anybody got a problem with the cheap bent pin piece o' shit from Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey that Jeff Bohl died on four and a half months ago?

My opinion........ Different types of towing call for different types of releases...

So can I put you down on the column for not using a keel mounted release for a platform tow?

...and also pilot preference.

FUCK "pilot" PREFERENCE. Are sailplane releases installed in accordance with idiot pilot preferences. There's ALWAYS gonna be a BEST engineering solution for ANY tow configuration. If it exists, you use it. If it doesn't exist, you develop it. Otherwise you're just another dice roller. (Or maybe you've just got a solid safety solution but you're carrying weight and/or drag you shouldn't need to.)

I'm stationary winch towing and if done correctly, I believe, is the most safe type of towing.

Bullshit. Platform configured like:

08-01107
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7769/18376684492_a49fd12f3e_o.png


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8809/18382342111_f94a5114a9_o.png
12-01125

Head and shoulders above and hands down.

less moving parts.

- 'Cause it's got the MOST moving parts.

- OK, let's eliminate the launch dolly from aerotowing and see how that works out for everyone.

- This pro toad:

09-03110
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7498/27174352572_20d38b525e_o.png


idiot's right arm is a moving part. You need another one on the other side to effect and maintain pitch and roll axis control - which in hang gliding are the only two axes you have. If you eliminate ONE arm from the control system you have ZERO control. And she's co-opting it to use it for a function for it was not designed and can not be certified - as her release actuation system. 'Cause she's too fuckin' stupid and cheap to equip with moving parts designed to do the job properly and safely.

(my opinion)

Fuck your opinion. Fuck anybody who has an OPINION on basic grade school level arithmetic.

I've seen the video above and that was a combination of errors to include a screwed up release.

And who's primarily responsible? The new Hang Two student or the operation that taught him, signed him off, and equipped and launched him?

So back to the original post...... Does anybody have a Koch release?

Pretty much everybody who surface tows in Western Europe.

Dave Gills - 2016/09/06 20:13:31 UTC

I tried a 3 ring circus also and it was inconsistent as load increased.

Big fuckin' deal. The problem is it's too complicated for Mission students to connect properly. So ya go with a Mission State-Of-The-Art Two-String...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

Scott Howard - 2014/11/06 16:06:31 UTC

...the best i can do for now is a clip of the day b4 when i told the instructor about release problem. (still released by normal method but had to yank 3 times on release to get it to release.)

Their new and improved state-of-the-art model works a lot better for when the line's slack at the top of the tow too. Win/Win.

Once there was a problem with wrapping of the release string.

You just need more training on how to use the equipment properly.

Either way, I didn't see a secondary release in the video setup.
Am I missing something?

There's zero reason to need a secondary release on a one point system. If someone can't do the job properly with one release, hang strap, one starboard sidewire one shouldn't fly.

Bart Weghorst - 2016/09/06 20:20:31 UTC
Houston

I like these:

http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5830/30096559336_c7508e6e74_o.png

Why? What's wrong with these:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8331326948/


Industry Standard, long track record, tried and true, no stress when you're high. Close to a hundred percent of the assholes you tow use them, right?

Dave Gills - 2016/09/06 20:28:54 UTC

There are 2 at this site...
One single & one double.
http://www.turfhouse.com/acatalog/copy_of_Paragliding_Bargains.html
Firebird UK SECONDHAND HANG GLIDING ACCESSORIES

http://www.turfhouse.com/acatalog/UsedKochsingle.jpg

http://www.turfhouse.com/acatalog/UsedKochcopy.jpg

NMERider - 2016/09/06 20:31:31 UTC

My friends in Hamburg, Germany all use the Koch type release for the winch towing at their club. I will send you a PM with my friend's email address so you can just write and ask him where to get one.

Davis Straub - 2016/09/06 20:40:49 UTC

Back to the original topic of an over/under release. I have used many. Here is a good one:
http://ozreport.com/1149624110

Cheap easily reachable Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt crap. (See below at his next post.) But thanks (again) anyway, Davis.

Uses it with this system:
http://ozreport.com/toc.php?title=ATV%20Towing&articles=10.116/0

Sorry. Can't see it 'cause your crappy website isn't working. But I'm assuming it's a good one because you're happy with it.

NMERider - 2016/09/06 21:03:04 UTC

I found one in Germany:
http://www.drachenfliegenlernen.de/shop/schleppzubehoer/doppelklinkekoch2.php
http://www.drachenfliegenlernen.de/images/kochklinke.jpg


The price include 19% VAT so email them and ask for the price with shipping to the US without the VAT.

Looks complicated. Ten times the number of parts, ten times the likelihood of failure, ten times the likelihood of killing you. Best remove a lever or sumpin'.

Peter Birren - 2016/09/06 21:10:54 UTC

Those big hunks of metal on one's chest have been the cause for numerous broken ribs.

- You mean like...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Weaklinks

Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC

You trying to tell me the pilot had time to release? Not a prayer.

I know about this type of accident because it happened to me, breaking 4 ribs and my larynx... and I was aerotowing using a dolly. The sh*t happened so fast there was no room for thought much less action. But I wasn't dragged because the weaklink did its job and broke immediately on impact.

...your crappy little twenty dollar placebo release?

- Bull fucking shit. I've found ONE incident which resembles that remark and you're seldom one to cite actual data on any of the rot you spew.

- Yeah Peter... If I flew placebo releases like you do I'd also have consideration for what they might do to me in a crash on high priority.

- Damn good thing Steve Elliot, Lemmy Lopez, Terry Mason, Kelly Harrison, Arys Moorhead, Zack Marzec, Tomas Banevicius, Nancy Tachibana, Jeff Bohl were flying placebo releases. They might have gotten broken ribs otherwise.

But in the same over/under vein, here's what Miller Straud...

Stroud.

...came up with using 2 Linknifes:

I would've thunk that the plural of "Linknife" woud've woud've been "LinkniVes".

http://forum.hanggliding.org/download/file.php?id=27149

Yeah. Works great in any situation in which you don't need it to. He's very happy with it.

NMERider - 2016/09/06 21:32:29 UTC

That's pretty interesting but I say give the OP what the OP asked for--broken ribs or no broken ribs. I think he was pretty adamant about obtaining a Koch-type 2-stage release and I have found a source. Hopefully, he gets his release then uses it and reports back here with a follow-up. Otherwise I have wasted fifteen minutes of my life trying to assist a fellow pilot. Wait a minute--I've wasted well over a 1,000 hours trying to help out the community. Shame on me for being such a fool.

This will be "Releases" Post 1000. Guess how much time has gone into this one thread.

Davis Straub - 2016/09/06 22:40:13 UTC

http://ozreport.com/pub/images/bridles060106.jpg

RBT - 2016/09/07 05:35:28 UTC

I know this thread is about the Koch release - but it's title is broader than that. Any newcomer (like myself) trying to get towing info will do a search and this thread will pop up and get read. So here is my 2 cents worth with that in mind.

From what I have read on here (and the Oz Report) when things go wrong in any form of towing it can happen very quickly. Sometimes so quickly it even takes those with lots of experience by total surprise.

And kills them because "EXPERIENCE" beyond solid left/right/up/down skills is completely useless when you're overpowered by a misaligned tow and need to quickly grow a third hand to get to your easily reachable placebo release.

In many of those cases it seems a decision had to be made about either keeping the hands on the basebar and trying to control the glider or going for a release.

Not really. You're dead either way so it doesn't really matter that much.

And all this happening at a time when adrenaline is pumping and fine motor control is compromised.

Bull fucking shit.
- Watch an NFL or NBA game sometime.
- Tell me what fine motor skills are involved in a lockout emergency.

Considering the fact that towing is predominantly done on flatland with a view to catching thermals, the risks seem pretty clear - wings getting suddenly lifted with no warning for example.

NOT DOWN LOW - where it MATTERS. We mostly need releases that don't stink on ice to keep students and fuckups to survive crappy instruction and preflight oversights.

Bob Buxton is classic.

19-04610
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2809/13746340634_a74b33d285_o.png


Bridle over the bar, "observer" observing who knows what the fuck, easily reachable release.

Kaluzhin...

14-01405
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8760/18376683312_0194935885_o.png


Brain dead easy and he reboots five minutes later. Easily reachable...

84-05301
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3708/13746233274_c1a80f35c1_o.png


Just brain dead. Life as he and his family knew it over.

There are some dynamics which go a long ways to keep these issues from going anywhere. Once one is Hang 2.0 solid on up/down/left/right lockouts only happen at altitude where nothing matters. So fatal low level lockouts (redundant - all low level lockouts are fatal) only happen to unqualified students (Tomas Banevicius - learn to fly / don't try to save a bad situation) and qualified fuckups (Jeff Bohl - make sure your camera's stowed cause taking your hand off the bar to do anything but make the easy reach to your release is insanely dangerous / don't try to save a bad situation). So we get stuck with shit's like Ryan telling us that equipment doesn't matter if you're a REAL pilot and we keep sending people up one irregularity shy of certain death.

With one wing at a cockeyed angle and control disappearing fast, do you really want to have to make a decision to release control of the glider by taking a hand off the basebar?

You really don't have to:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Brad Gryder - 2013/02/21 23:25:31 UTC

There's also a way to swing your body way outside the control frame so it stays up there while you reach out with one hand and release. Come on - do some pushups this winter. See if you can advance up to some one-arm pushups.

These dangerous unpredictable situations seem to apply equally to both aero and ground based towing.

Yes. The kind of dangerous unpredictable situations that are predicted by decades of fatality reports.

If you are new and looking at towing and release options I suggest you take a good look at the Russian Mouth Release.

And make sure to totally ignore anything that Tad's developed.

It feels a bit odd in your mouth to start with but you quickly get used to it.

Ya know what really feels odd in your mouth?


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg

11-311
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2550/12981131483_dde259c80d_o.png

Any physical discomfort is easily outweighed by the the mental comfort of knowing that you will not have to make the decisions described above.

- Would you shut the fuck up about DECISIONS?! There ARE NO DECISIONS to be made when you have no viable options for an acceptable outcome. The DECISION was made before you got on the cart. If it was a SHIT one - as it virtually always is in the West - you're a passenger. Put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye.

On Kite Strings we do not discuss the best ways to CRASH. We leave that to Jack Show Dave Hopkins - there world's foremost authority on using gliders as crumple zones - and we discuss the best ways to function as PILOTS.

- Tell about the physical discomfort involved with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh3-uZptNw0


The only downsides are that it's pro toad and Tad invented. It's a lighter, cleaner, more comfortable solution for aero - but not really adaptable for surface.

I haven't aero towed with it, but have walked around the house with it in my mouth for 10 minutes and it wasn't a problem.

So you didn't pull any teeth out? Does Davis know about this?

Davis Straub - 2016/09/07 05:56:07 UTC

And, I'm quite certain that it is possible to re-engineer the Russian Mouth Release to make it more pleasant in the mouth.

And whom do you have in mind for doing that, Davis? A team of our finest US release engineers? Who've only made things crappier over the course of the last three decades?

Perhaps with a mouth guard in the mean time.

Well why don't you do it, Davis? Still too bogged down with your 130 pound Greenspot testing program?

Dave Gills - 2016/09/07 10:42:43 UTC

Done...

Did you get permission from any of the few people who are actually working on things...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC

It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things.

...or are you just another lunatic fringer ranting and masking their efforts?

The longer one has small sections of mouth guard sewn onto each piece with dental floss.

Guess you didn't need to use the dental floss for your teeth as most of them were undoubtedly pulled out by this thing before you made the modification.

I got the mouth guard from Walmart.

Peter Birren - 2016/09/06 21:10:54 UTC

...here's what Miller Straud came up with using 2 Linknifes:

So you have to pull BOTH releases if you get into trouble in the kill zone in order to terminate tow?

Yeah, but in fairness you do it with the same single easy reach. But that was a month ago and Peter's not gonna bother to respond.

Matt Pruett - 2016/09/07 13:29:44 UTC

I currently fly with a linknife. My linknife is attached to the end of the weakest flexi dog leash available. The force on the dog leash is insufficient to actuate the release, and I have removed the parts inside the leash for the locking mechanism so that it is always free regardless of if you hit the button or not. The leash is tied to the inside pocket on my harness. The end result is that the release line always stays straight and in position regardless of my motions.

- Sounds complicated. Keep It Simple Stupid.

- Did you get permission to do this from Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/15 23:30:11 UTC

There does tend to be a lot of "Reinventing The Wheel" that goes on when people try to "Build a Better Mousetrap".

This is fine and dandy if you realize and accept that you are quite literally experimenting with your life.
As over the top as that sounds, it's pretty damn accurate.

I get called a wet blanket a lot, and that's ok. But I've seen a lot of my friends try to put themselves in the hospital "experimenting" with this stuff.

Please realize that there are hidden issues with all this stuff.
It is by no means as straight forward as it looks.

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.

I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.

The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.

That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.

Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.

Or is he now and forever in a position...

08-19
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5277/30076449505_1f6ed2f804_o.png


...in which you can now safely tell him he can suck your dick?

I do have an RMR as well, I'm not pro towing yet, so I haven't tried it, but I do plan to.

Yeah, but first get that short clinic from Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt so's you'll know how to pro tow safely.

My my my. What happened to all the discussion about selecting properly sized weak links?

End of Releases Post 1000.
---
2022/04/13 10:00:00 UTC

Not any more. Must've reassigned eleven elsewhere at some point prior.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=49407
Can't release

Davis Straub - 2016/09/05 14:35:33 UTC

A bit cockeyed

http://vimeo.com/68791399
http://vimeo.com/68791399

I linked to this video before but was recently reminded of it by:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34685
Wanted "Winch Tow Release"

You're quite welcome. You have no idea how happy it makes me to know that SOMEBODY appreciates my work and is motivated by it to help address some of the sport's few remaining serious problems.

Gerry Grossnegger - 2016/09/06 2:06:44 UTC

No hook knife?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Jim Rooney - 2013/07/02 00:34:49 UTC

As for this guy... yeah, where's his bloody hook knife?

1. Great minds...
2. How come none of you brain dead motherfuckers are asking about Harold's hook knife?

Davis Straub - 2016/09/06 02:08:25 UTC

I believe he says not.

Yeah?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 01:47:57 UTC

As he said he would have to make three line cuts with that three ring circus of his. See the comments at the video web site.

Lin Lyons

At this point, I've had two weeks to think about this, and, If I were to find myself in the same situation again (I won't) I'd do exactly the same thing, but throw my paracute earlier. If I'd have tried to use my hook knife, it would have taken some time to cut both sides of the tow bridle, and then realize that I need to cut my release line as well. After I'd done all that, I'd have had to recover a completely out of control glider. And I wouldn't have had a hand on the control bar.

Lin Lyons

Considering using my hook knife, or their hook knife at the winch:
I was trailing a mile of line before they (and I) recognized that there was a problem.
(About twenty seconds later, I was on the ground - there was only time for one recovery attempt.)
That line was coming straight up from the pulley at the far end of the winch line.
Pulling me nearly straight down, across my base tube.
Never having encountered a situation remotely like this, they weren't prepared for it.
They did cut power to the winch, so that the line came off it pretty freely.
However, a mile of line, in air, produces considerable resistance.
Cutting it at the winch would have left me dragging that mile of line behind me.
Plus the mile of retrieval line through the retrieval pully.
That would have made it very hard for me to steer.
(Nearly impossible, actually.)
At that point, I was heading nearly straight down.
My parachute really was the only "guaranteed" option that I knew would work.

Tell us about some of your other BELIEFS, Davis.

Gordon Marshall - 2016/09/07 02:12:37 UTC
York, Western Australia

wow something as simples a weak link. something as simple as an infallible release and this would have been a non event.
I can see a number of things wrong with this tow.
Why are we towing in prone? clearly the pilot sufferers from PIO and towing in a supine position would elevate this considerably.
A pitch limiter is used to cover for poor teaching technique (this guy didn't need one, his technique is fine)
Donald Hewitt developed a good bridle that distributes the load and yet I guess this group of people don't feel the need.
Radio communication with the tow vehicle?
A release at the tow vehicle?
hook knife?
Thankfully despite all of what he was taught to do he did the right (and only thing left to do) and throw his reserve. well done.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10
Welcome to, and policies of, the Oz Report discussion group

Davis Straub - 2003/03/04 02:07:45 UTC

I encourage quality posts, posts that actually help the reader and would be of interest to the readers. I discourage drivel, nonsense and lazy, just hanging around, here-I-am-with-nothing-really-much-to say posts. There are other sites that encourage such behavior, this is not one of them.

The Oz Report forum is not a campfire. It is not a place to hang out with your bud and have a beer while slurring your words. It is a serious forum for pilots who wish to write cogently and engage the intellect of others. It is not for everyone, and not everyone has something useful to contribute.

For the new pilots who come here in your blazing ignorance (and your burning desire for a hint of acceptance), I say, humility is a fine cloak for your obsessive egos. Lurk, listen, read (past issues - using the search function in the Oz Report itself and the other (non Google) search function in the forum), and, if you must, ask questions, without explaining to us first how you know everything already.

I value my reader's time. One way I do this is to discourage readers with nothing useful to contribute from contributing it on the forum. Please, don't post there unless you really have a contribution to make to your fellow pilots. I realize that the forum structure makes it easy to ignore others (unlike the mailing list format), but still, use good judgment.

If you can't, please take those low quality comments elsewhere where I'm sure that they will find a ready audience among those with too much time on their hands.

Nobody ever got banned from The Davis Show for being too off-the-scale stupid.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Gordon Marshall - 2013/07/02 22:58:18 UTC

where the hell is your damn weak link?????????
only FOOLS tow without one, if you cant tow with a weak link without fear of it breaking go and get proper tow lessons!!!!!!!!

And you'll note that Gordo doesn't get called by anyone on any of this rot. (For anyone who still needs to understand how mainstream glider forums actually work it's the precise and polar opposite of everything Davis has put in black and white.)

Sergey Kataev - 2016/09/08 09:08:20 UTC
Scotland

Been on that winch in that field, though my experience wasn't nearly as extreme.

Tandem hang gliding student Arys Moorhead's was...

http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5788/23461251751_e98b9c7500_o.png


And then some. At a similar venue.

The "tow vehicle" is a winch located by the launch, and the cable goes through a pulley on the other end of the field.
Operator can't avoid seeing what goes on with the glider, unless a newspaper is more interesting.

After dumping what tension he could he might as well have been reading a newspaper.

Never having encountered a situation remotely like this, they weren't prepared for it.

Never having encountered a situation remotely like this - a glider unable to separate from the tow, a completely unimaginable scenario for a tow operation, they simply weren't prepared for it. Also weren't prepared for it when it happened again with Nancy Tachibana on 2016/04/01. But if there'd been a flood, shark attack, Ebola outbreak...

Utterly shocked by the video

Any thoughts on what the Kelly Harrison / Arys Moorhead video would've looked like before Mitch swallowed the card? The one in which the tandem instructor DIDN'T throw the parachute?

Martin Henry - 2016/09/10 4:27:17 UTC

In the multiple times that I've seen this video posted, I noted that there were very few comments about the deployment.

The deployment was discussed to death which was way more than adequate to cover this issue. If you're really looking for a dearth of comments on parachute deployment:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8819/18267685796_64156e9c91_o.png

I'm watched 7-8 seconds of simply trying to get the chute out of the harness... even with some serious inspiration, the pilot knew he was toast and 7-8 seconds went flying by.

He was a fuckin' Hang Two STUDENT and managed his end of the rope a lot better than the professional dildo at the other.

Does not sound like much but just do the old "One, one thousand, two, one thousand..." ... that's a allot of time.

Yes Martin. That's "a a lot of time". You've got twice as many "a"s and twice as many "l"s as what's required and proper. "Allot" is a verb that could be used in something like: "That's a lot of time to allot for an emergency procedure like that."

Many people fly with gear like this and think nothing of it, many show up at re-pack clinics every year and do multiple yanks just to "get it out".

Yeah, he should probably go to more parachute clinics. The one he'd had two or three weekends prior had probably gotten a bit stale in his memory by that time. Or maybe his time would've been better spent in a three-string release connection clinic to complement the shit state-of-the-art equipment training from Mission that he'd already paid for.

Still, as rough as the deployment sequence was for this pilot, it did work, so thanks for posting.

Ain't it great how much Davis is constantly doing for this sport! Hell, if it weren't for people like Davis and Jack getting this stuff out to the hang gliding community problems like this wouldn't get properly dealt with and another Mission student might have found him or her self in a similar stuck-on-tow situation. Maybe not at a thousand feet at which he or she would be able to get his or her parachute open in time enough for sixteen seconds of float time. Maybe he or she would only be at three hundred feet with only enough time for him or her to die doing what he or she loved.

Hook knife comments are also interesting, getting it out, cutting the line, allot of time goes slipping by.

Todd Jones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJGUJO5BjnA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJGUJO5BjnA

Thirty seconds from when he gives up on his very very reliable bent pin release to when he finishes using his razor-sharp cutting tool to slash through his lines in an instant. And that's at two thousand feet, twice Lin's starting altitude, twice the glider to roller (drum versus pulley) towline length, over a dry lakebed in a total non emergency situation with zilch tension and the glider under full or very reasonable control at all times on a tow that probably could've been continued until the truck ran out of gas. He has the luxury of switching hands to cut starboard and port side lines.

This is an undesirable situation but nothing anywhere near to approaching an emergency.

Lin, on the other hand...

http://vimeo.com/68791399
http://vimeo.com/68791399

This:

050-12922
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8677/16488818459_759804547a_o.png


is about the point at which he has given up hope on his state-of-the-art release. Plan B:

066-13315
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8630/16055011863_d4a22b723e_o.png


Signal the winch. However without a guillotine or hook knife...

076-13716
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8624/16649008246_1953513546_o.png


...we've only reduced the tension enough to die less quickly and violently. So at this point:

112-15321
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8602/16487544500_177afc8ba4_o.png


we're starting to think Plan C - parachute. And here we are:

160-20719
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8606/16487365108_b6730b5c64_o.png


thirty seconds into parachute mode at the point we'd have been in hook knife mode if we'd been able to implement the hook knife solution as quickly and efficiently as Todd was able. Hook knife? No thanks.

Just like a tow that ends in a bad lockout, all you have to do is release... yet we don't. The instinct to fly the glider is strong. To stick to the plan is strong. To not give up the plan, very strong. To commit to an emergency measure our skills are weak. That's what gets us killed.

Toleration of off-the-scale stupid motherfuckers like you being tolerated in the sport and on its discussion groups is what gets people killed.

I've had two parachute deployments in my life. Of course... both while flying a paraglider . I admit to this day, that it is truly a humbling experience to give up control and ride the silk.

Give up WHAT control? If you had control why did you toss the silk?

Fortunately on a paraglider its not a hard decision. In both of my incidents I decided I had not seen a viable aircraft for a while, so I figured it was time to deploy

You hadn't had a viable aircraft for a while but, nevertheless, you had CONTROL.

Of course all the comments about the operator and the release system are true.

Hang gliding industry's fundamental law of lockout dynamics:

It's physically impossible to find oneself in any situation on tow in which removing a hand from the basetube to make an easy reach to a release will result in a crash of any severity. As long as the reason one takes a hand off the basetube is to actuate an Industry Standard release one will always come out smelling like a rose.

And when we have a situation in which one DOES crash and burn after having commenced or competed an easy reach is always because he stupidly failed to recognize / tried too long and hard to salvage a bad situation.

Similar deal in approaches and landings. Never a downside to being upright with hands at shoulder or ear height where one can't control the glider. Probably just failed to go upright soon enough or got hit by an invisible dust devil.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/20.183
Barrel release forces

Davis Straub - 2016/09/12 14:16:56 UTC

Curved or straight

Richard Thorp
Texas

I have been laid low with sinusitis for the past week - so thought I would do a release force test on my barrel release - something that I have been wanting to do for a while:



I use the top black one in the picture - I forget the source of it but it is a thin wall aluminum barrel 3/4in inside diameter with a stainless steel curved pin. The tension is limited by a single loop of the fishing line I have used as a weaklink since Hempstead. I do not have a good way of measuring forces - I used a lever and baggage scale. To the best I can determine the weaklink was failing around the 200lbf mark, so all the tests done were probably between 150lbf and 200lbf

Anyway. At this "high" load of 150 - 200lbf, the top black release takes a VERY VERY strong pull to open it. It always opened, but the release force is MUCH higher than I am comfortable with. You have to be sure to grip it properly when releasing. I can really see how a first attempt could potentially fail. It could be helped with a larger diameter ring around it so that if you slide your hand down the line there is a better shoulder to pull against.

I have another barrel release - the lower one with the red line. This I made myself with thick wall Al tube 3/8in inside diameter and a straight parachute pin. This is very similar in geometry to the 'Getof' release I have seen around - and is a design I like. The combination of the straight pin that has a better mechanical advantage and the smaller tube means the release force is much smoother and very easy - 2 fingers can easily operate it.

So - what is the conclusion?. Well this is a personal question of risk tolerance, but for me I feel the 3/4in design is very marginal. I am now not wanting to use it as my primary and have to fight with one hand off the bar to effect a release. I also can see very little sense in using it as a secondary release - secondary releases will be used under high stress situations and often with an unpracticed hand with the release in an awkward position. For approx $10 and 10 minutes work I can make up a much better alternative.

Just food for thought.

Personally, with hundreds of launches, I have not had any problem with the smaller blue version of the curved pin barrel release. Thanks to Larry Bunner.

Davis Straub - 2016/09/12 14:16:56 UTC

Curved or straight

Nobody calls them "curved", Davis. When I started in this game there was only one person flying anything else - Yours Truly - so there was no point in using an adjective. I coined "bent" to denigrate the Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey Release when I started pushing sane barrel releases. And the term stuck. And, hang gliding being what it is, "bent" became a desirable attribute, a term indicative of quality and integrity.

Richard Thorp - 2016/09/12 14:16:56 UTC

I have been laid low with sinusitis for the past week - so thought I would do a release force test on my barrel release - something that I have been wanting to do for a while.

Why didn't you just go up to altitude with a Tad-O-Link, put it in a lockout, and see what would happen? That's how Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden discovered that they don't work when they have too much pressure on them.

I use the top black one in the picture - I forget the source of it...

Genuine Bailey Release. Quest - where they've been perfecting aerotowing for well over twenty years.

...but it is a thin wall aluminum barrel 3/4in inside diameter with a stainless steel curved pin. The tension is limited by a single loop of the fishing line I have used as a weaklink since Hempstead.

And make sure you don't tell us what it is. Highly classified Industry information. Focal point of a safe towing system. Sure can't have the flying public privy to that kind of intelligence, using solid data to plug into equations making predictions on the ground.

I do not have a good way of measuring forces...

Yeah. Real bitch doing things right in this game...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8317889807/


...ain't it?

...I used a lever and baggage scale. To the best I can determine the weaklink was failing around the 200lbf mark...

Two hundred pounds force, people of varying ages, translates to precisely two hundred pounds.

...so all the tests done were probably between 150lbf and 200lbf

Dangerously to moderately light for heavier solo gliders.

Anyway. At this "high"...

Yes. DEFINITELY with the quotation marks.

...load of 150 - 200lbf, the top black release takes a VERY VERY strong pull to open it.

Go figure.

It always opened, but the release force is MUCH higher than I am comfortable with.

I am shocked... SHOCKED! to be hearing this.

You have to be sure to grip it properly when releasing.

While you're flying the glider with the other hand...

07-300
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7441/12980980635_a22762812d_o.png


...or...

27-44400
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8625/16019976468_1f060f370c_o.png


...elbow.

I can really see how a first attempt could potentially fail.

That's OK. In Flight Park Mafia aerotowing there's no limit to the number of attempts you're allowed. And even if you simply find it impossible to pry open...

05
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7077/27082298482_cda1aba01b_o.png


...there's always your razor-sharp cutting tool you can use to slash through your lines in an instant.

It could be helped with a larger diameter ring around it so that if you slide your hand down the line there is a better shoulder to pull against.

Or a...

Ollie Chitty

i do have a barrel style release but i have corred out a golf ball and that is what i use, its much easier just to "slap and release" rather than trying to find a defined small barrel!

...cored out golf ball over the barrel...

10-307
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1660/26132155836_82b94d6550_o.png


See how great it works? Ollie's about to total his glider and rearrange his face OFF TOW. And he won't be dragged by his Tad-O-Link. (He's obviously using a Tad-O-Link because a correctly sized weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.)

And see the way the hand with which he makes the easy reach is then automatically positioned in front of his face and ready to protect it from the ensuing impact?

11-311
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2550/12981131483_dde259c80d_o.png

12-314
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1534/26156092785_a74b7428ff_o.png

13-324
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1705/26063634502_15c1fddc1b_o.png

14-409
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1558/25883200930_a1414657a9_o.png

15-413
http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3141/12981414774_e6ddd85c13_o.png

16-615
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1643/26089752561_aa0c21b900_o.png

17-914
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1621/25553442623_0fa04a2bdb_o.png


Pretty cool the way that works out, huh!

I have another barrel release - the lower one with the red line.

This I made myself with thick wall Al tube 3/8in inside diameter and a straight parachute pin.

- Go...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8311348069/


http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8312399698/

...figure.

- And I like the way you made it just a little bit longer that Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey's short and fat bent pin job. That'll help ensure that you can get a really good grip on it.

This is very similar in geometry to the 'Getof' release I have seen around...

...and was inspired by the work of and developed in collaboration with T** at K*** S******.

...and is a design I like.

- You're welcome.
- Name some other Western aerotow releases that were DESIGNED.

The combination of the straight pin that has a better mechanical advantage and the smaller tube means the release force is much smoother and very easy - 2 fingers can easily operate it.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3347
Tad's barrel release tested

Brian Vant-Hull - 2008/06/30 13:48:08 UTC

I, Brian Vant-Hull (hereafter referred to variously as "I" or "me") in the company of James Rooney (hereafter variously referred to as "Jim" or "Rooney" (collectively referred to as "we")) do attest that on Saturday, June 28, I have laid hands upon and inspected, under controlled and numerically repeatable conditions, the barrel release (hereafter referred to as "Tad's Release") constructed by Thaddeus Eareckson (hereafter referred to as "Tad") and have compared it under identical conditions to the 'Bailey' barrel release.

We found that under a load of 194 pounds the Bailey release required a very strong tug (I couldn't do it at first) while Tad's release could be actuated with the friction of two fingers at twice that load. Rooney could actuate the Bailey release immediately, but admitted they practiced this during tandem training, so he knew to wrap his fingers over the top and pull vigorously. I do not believe that if the forces became this strong I could operate the Bailey release with the alacrity required under lockout conditions, but could actuate the Tad release. I won't speak for Jim, but

Under weight of these observations, I do attest that TAD's RELEASE is SUPERIOR to the BAILEY RELEASE and that the BAILEY RELEASE is SERIOUSLY FLAWED UNDER HIGH LOADS.

In witness thereof, I attach my signature and moreover have purchased Tad's release.

So - what is the conclusion?. Well this is a personal question of risk tolerance...

Bull fucking shit. It's no more a personal question of risk tolerance than HGMA glider certification. The Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey bent pin Bailey Release is a grotesque and deliberate violation of the standards to which u$hPa agreed to adhere to in order to be granted its aerotow exemption 32 years ago this month.

...but for me I feel the 3/4in design is very marginal.

But if you're a fuckin' gorilla it's perfectly OK.

I am now not wanting to use it as my primary and have to fight with one hand off the bar to effect a release.

But you're still perfectly OK taking a hand off for an easy reach and pull.

I also can see very little sense in using it as a secondary release - secondary releases will be used under high stress situations and often with an unpracticed hand with the release in an awkward position.

Tell me one good reason somebody who goes up on one of these cheap total pieces o' crap shouldn't have his AT rating immediately suspended and any operation that allows one within five miles of a runway shouldn't be ripped to irreparable shreds by the FAA.

For approx $10 and 10 minutes work I can make up a much better alternative.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.

I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.

The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.

That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.

Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.

Just food for thought.

Thought? What fucking cave have you been living in for the past decade or so?

Personally, with hundreds of launches, I have not had any problem with the smaller blue version of the curved pin barrel release.

See? Davis, personally, with hundreds of launches, has not had any problem with the smaller blue version of the curved pin barrel release. So all you've done is create a solution in search of a problem. Easily reachable bent pin Quallaby releases aren't causes of aerotow crashes and fatalities any more than Reynolds Tobacco cigarettes are causes of lung cancer or ExxonMobil petroleum products are causes of global warming. Whenever somebody who sells something tells you there aren't any problems with it you must believe him and behave accordingly.

Besides, dontchya think that if straight pin barrel releases were as superior as you claim they are that we'd all be using them everywhere already?

Thanks to Larry Bunner.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3659
New Lookout Release

Larry Bunner - 2008/12/07 15:42:28 UTC

Tad, man if you could just cut back on the vitriolic statements it might be easier for us to accept what you have to say. I find it difficult to understand your intent. I'd like to upgrade to a better release however if you truly do have one, your rhetoric tends to cloud (in my mind anyway) or distract from the issue to the point where I really don't even want to see what you have to offer.

Fuck Larry Bunner and the horse he rode in on.

I'm so hoping that the family of the next asshole who dies on one of these sues the assholes who sold it to him and pulled him off the cart with it out of existence ten times over.