It ONLY took six weak link breaks (in a row) to figure out something was wrong.Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.
Steve Davy - 2011/08/28 05:58:14 UTC
Ridgerodent wrote:Davis wrote:Could someone please tell me the function of the "weak link"? Thanks.Zack wrote:To break under load before the glider does.Jim wrote:The heart of the disagreement, if there is one, is that for those that see the sole purpose of the weak link as preventing structural failure of the glider...Which is not me.
Those people can get stuffed... they're wrong.
But that's not what Davis said. Rodent asked:Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 06:15:12 UTC
You're looking for an argument were there is none.
Please note:
is that for those that see the sole purpose of the weak link
This is a very different question than "what is the purpose of a weak link".
One allows for multiple purposes, the other doesn't.
Davis answered:Could someone please tell me THE function of the "weak link"?
Davis did NOT answer:To break under load before the glider does.
Davis Straub - 2005/02/07
So if weaklinks don't do much to save us from lockouts, an argument heard repeatedly at the Worlds, then why are we using them after Robin's lockout (and not before)?
What exactly is the point of weaklinks? Why should we be using them? What is the tradeoff in safety between breaking a weaklink and thereby having a problem, and not breaking a weaklink and thereby having a problem?
Perhaps if you laid out the case re the tradeoffs involving weaklinks, we could make a better decision about them. For a couple of years I have flown with a doubled weaklink because, flying with a rigid wing glider, I have found that there is little reason to expect trouble on tow, except from a weaklink break. Am I wrong in this?
Well who would've thought otherwise for more than a nanosecond? And this IS God's honest truth, right? And who are we to argue with God - or his special little messenger?So, you see, we're both "right".
NO!!! Two stupid sleazy little douchebags in hang gliding are FRIENDS with each other? Who'da thunk?The argument you're trying to create is one of semantics.
You may not know, but Davis is a friend of mine.
So how come the other douchebag hasn't said ONE THING on the issue of A purpose of the weak link being lockout protection? How come that statement has been so conspicuously absent? Maybe it's just that you're such good little buddies that he's totally cool with letting you express all his "thoughts"?We have discussed this many times in person. We are not in disagreement.
If you can not see that we're in agreement, perhaps I can clear things up for you. Or Davis can.
Either way, you're the one creating the drama.
Has Steve Kroop also authorized you to speak for him and renounce his previous lunatic rantings?Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster.
Steve Davy - 2011/08/28 07:03:15 UTChttp://www.dynamicflight.com.au/WeakLinks.htmlDynamic Flight - 2005
The purpose of a weak link is solely to prevent the tow force from increasing to a point that the glider can be stressed close to or beyond its structural limits. Lockouts can and do occur without increasing tow tension up until the point where the glider is radically diverging from the direction of tow. At this point tension rises dramatically and something will give - preferably the weak link. Given that a certified glider will take 6-10G positive a 1.5 G weak link as opposed to a standard 1 G weak link should not significantly increase the risk of structural failure. It will however significantly decrease the probability of an unwanted weak link break.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 08:34:12 UTC
Yeah, I've read that drivel before.
It's a load of shit.
But these guys aren't REAL professionals - not like any of you Quest/Ridgely/Manquin clones.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC
It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
Yeah. EXACTLY the way you do when somebody says he has a release that actually works. I've never seen anyone better at tuning out anyone or anything that contradicts God's honest truth.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:15:12 UTC
Oh, in case it's not obvious (which it doesn't seem to be), once someone starts telling me what the "sole" purpose of a weaklink is, I tune them out as they have no clue what they're talking about.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hhpa/message/11155Weaklinks are there to improve the safety of the towing operation, as I've stated before.
And what could POSSIBLY improve the safety of a towing operation better than dumping people at random every fourth or fifth tow? Or, if they're really crappy pilots, six tows in a row?Shane Nestle - 2010/09/17 22:17:50 UTC
So far I've only had negative experiences with weak links. One broke while aerotowing just as I was coming off the cart. Flared immediately and put my feet down only to find the cart still directly below me. My leg went through the two front parallel bars forcing me to let the glider drop onto the control frame in order to prevent my leg from being snapped.
Right, dickhead. It could NEVER be anything other than a matter of irritation and inconvenience. And why should some goddam weekend warrior pilot get to decide for himself what his weak link rating should be when ALL of the professionals who are truly on the side of God ALL agree that:Any time someone starts in on this "sole purpose" bullshit, it's cuz they're arguing for stronger weaklinks cuz they're breaking them and are irritated by the inconvenience.
Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTCWeaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
Yeah, it's astounding what you keep hearing a million times and yet so nobly remain unmoved and oblivious. Shithead.I've heard it a million times and it's a load of shit.
Yeah, this is nothing more than matters of opinion and arguments. And all that really matters is YOUR opinion 'cause YOU'RE one of the professionals on the side of GOD.After they've formed their opinion, then they go in search of arguments that support their opinion.
No danger of that whatsoever. Once he learned everything he needed to know from his Ridgely douchebag buddies, no one was ever gonna be able to teach him anything about anything.Tormod Helgesen - 2011/08/28 10:21:06 UTC
Oslo
Jim, I don't agree with ridgerodent (and Tad is an idiot) and you are very experienced in towing so I won't try to teach you anything about that.
Ya know, Tormod...But, are you certain if it't the system that works, or if it's the skill of the pilots that prevents accidents? (The latter case is an accident waiting to happen!)
I ask because you seem to be unwilling to even consider a fault in the system on the grounds of "it works" and "we've been trough this before". I know it's annoying to be presented with "new" ideas again and again but every incident should be investigated to see IF anything could be done to improve the system.
It's very difficult to see flaws from the inside, especially if you're very good at what you're doing. It's easy to dismiss critical inputs as being irrelevant but because no system or person is perfect we should at least pause and consider them. This is of course difficult when the critique is presented as incoherent rambling as in Tads case or provocativ as ridgerodent.
Especially people who actually have minds which they can make up on the basis of math, science, logic, and history - instead of just memorizing what they've been told by some other total shithead.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC
Hi Tormod.
Oh, not at all.
I think what you're picking up on is my lack of willingness to discuss this with people that have already made up their minds.
The godless beasts.Sorry for that, but it's just the nature of the beast.
Like reality.I have no issue with discussing this with people that don't have an agenda.
Especially when there are millions of them.I get very short with people that do however.
Bullshit.Am I "certain" about anything?
Nope.
Yep. When you send enough people up with Flight Park Mafia shitrigged releases you WILL be able to point to one or two assholes who lucked out because of their shitrigged weak links. But you've also gotta ignore the fact that the costs of saving those one or two assholes is about ten thousand unnecessary weak link failures and the resulting destruction, carnage, and death.However, some things get real obvious when you're doing them all the time. One is that weaklinks do in fact save people's asses.
Especially when the "pilot" is trying to release with one hand and fly the glider with the other.You're 100% onto it... relying on the skill of the pilot is a numbers game that you'll lose at some point.
Maybe that's because you Ridgely douchebags are "training" and soloing people without even telling them about the existence of lockouts. And maybe that's because if you did they'd be too scared to go up with the shitrigged releases you're selling them.I find that so many people do not appreciate how fast and furious lockouts can happen.
Really? You're forcing everybody to go up on 130 pound Greenspot so just how bad can they get? Maybe it's only the little girl pilots who lock out that badly. The big heavy dudes are the ones that are always gonna be OK.They're exponential in nature.
Twice the time doesn't equate to twice the "bad"... it's four times the "bad"... then 16... it gets dramatic fast.
Is a weaklink going to save your ass? Who knows? But it's nice to stack the deck in your favour.
And totally ignore the stall elephant in the room.Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
So are we seeing a lot more dead little girl pilots than big dude pilots? Aren't they getting a LOT higher ratings with their Sacred Loops?Now flip the argument and you start to see the devil.
A glider can take a whole shitload more force than a weaklink can.
So, if you're of the "sole purpose" cult, then you see no issue with a LOT stronger weaklink.
Well, it won't take long with that system before we've got a lot more dead pilots out there.
Yeah, fuck them. If they're gonna die it's gonna be because they're towing on the shitrigged cable and bent pin releases you're selling them. Or a weak link failure induced whipstall.So they can stuff their philosophical purity bs... cuz I have no desire to tow someone to their death, no matter how willing they may be.
Yeah, a bunch of halfwitted dickheads doing it that way 'cause they've always done it that way and then inventing lunatic justifications and rationalizations to con everybody into thinking it came about for some legitimate reason.I'm not playing with this stuff in my head and just dismissing it. There's been a lot that's gone into this system.
Yeah motherfucker? NAME ONE.I've seen too many people walk the "strong link" road only to find out the reality of things.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3648Fortunately, they've been unscathed, but there have been a lot of soiled underpants in the process.
Must've been listening to Tad The Child Molester and using one of his stronglinks, huh Jim?Carlos Weill - 2008/11/30 19:24:09 UTC
2008/06/02
On June of 2008 during a fast tow, I noticed I was getting out of alignment, but I was able to come back to it. The second time it happen I saw the tug line 45 deg off to the left and was not able to align the glider again I tried to release but my body was off centered and could not reach the release. I kept trying and was close to 90 deg. All these happen very quickly, as anyone that has experienced a lock out would tell you. I heard a snap, and then just like the sound of a WWII plane just shut down hurdling to the ground, only the ball of fire was missing. The tug weak link broke off at 1000ft, in less than a second the glider was at 500ft.
Yeah, nobody present any actual data or inject logic into the discussion. Just buy everything he tells you. That way it won't be an argument.I'm happy to discuss this stuff.
But I'm sick to death of arguing about it.
Flyhg - 2011/08/28 12:26:18 UTC
ConnecticutActually, it is FAR 91.309 and not the glider manufacturers, which states that the towline or weak link must have a breaking strength of not less than 80% nor more than 200% of the maximum certificated operating weight of the glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle.Zack C - 2011/08/26 12:39:26 UTC
It is my understanding that sailplane manufacturers specify the weak link strengths to use for their gliders. Makes a lot more sense to me...
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/technical/datasheets/weaklinks.pdfhttp://www.tost.de/
Tost Weak Links
Notes:
- Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
- Use only the weak links stipulated in your aircraft TCDS or aircraft manual.
- Checking the cable preamble is mandatory according to SBO (German Gliding Operation Regulations); this includes the inspection of weak links.
- Replace the weak link immediately in the case of visible damage.
- We recommend that the weak link insert are replaced after 200 starts: AN INSERT EXCHANGED IN TIME IS ALWAYS SAFER AND CHEAPER THAN AN ABORTED LAUNCH.
- Always use the protective steel sleeve.
- Use only the correct shackles: they prevent the weak link and the steel sleeve from twisting, leading to an increase of the breaking load.
Bill Daniels - 2006/09/18 14:30
I would like to add, however, that at least my reading of accident reports suggest that a fatal glider accident is more likely when the towline fails prematurely. For that reason, I like to stay near the stronger end of the FAR 80 to 200 percent range.
Actually, reading the Pilot's Operating Handbook for several German gliders, I note the weak link for aerotow is specified as an exact figure. For example, the weak link for both aero tow and winch for my Nimbus 2C is specified as 600 daN (1349 pounds) or a blue Tost weak link. The tolerance is plus or mins ten percent. The US Airworthiness Certificate specifies that the Nimbus 2C is to be flown as specified in the POH. Considering the possible flying weights, this ranges between 95 to 160 percent which is a narrower range than specified in the FAR's.
Makes me wonder if we should be using Tost weak links instead of old bits of rope.
Note that this technically applies to towing hang gliders if the tug is an "aircraft" and not an ultralight, but good luck finding out what the "maximum certificated operating weight" of your hang glider is.
Yeah, I have absolutely no freakin' clue how you'd determine that either. I also had too much lead in the water used to mix my baby formula. Good luck.Wills Wing
U2 145 and 160
Owner / Service Manual
The recommended hook in pilot weight range for the U2 is:
U2 160: 160 - 260 lbs.
U2 145: 140 - 220 lbs.
HGMA U2 145 COMPLIANCE VERIFICATION SPECIFICATION SHEET
Weight of glider with all essential parts and without coverbags and non-essential parts: 63 lbs.
HGMA U2 160 COMPLIANCE VERIFICATION SPECIFICATION SHEET
Weight of glider with all essential parts and without coverbags and non-essential parts: 68 lbs.
I believe that the 1.5 G thing is something Tad made up.
Yeah, just pulled it right out of his ass. Totally at odds with the perfection achieved by twenty years of professional experience with one size fits all 130 pound Greenspot lockout preventers.The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc.
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
10. Hang Gliding Aerotow Ratings
-B. Aero Vehicle Requirements
05. A weak link must be placed at both ends of the tow line. The weak link at the glider end must have a breaking strength that will break before the towline tension exceeds twice the weight of the hang glider pilot and glider combination.
Yep. That's what the weak link is there for in hang gliding - lockout protection.Towing a sailplane has little in common with towing a hang glider from a safety perspective as far as the types of things that can go wrong - lockouts...
Yeah, 130 pound Greenspot is REALLY GOOD for preventing that TOO! Just ask Davis, Julia Kucherenko, and......are not an issue and I have yet to see a sailplane come off of a three-wheeled cart and nose into the ground during the takeoff run.
...Peter Birren. If it weren't for 130 pound Greenspot we might see people REALLY getting hurt.Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC
I know about this type of accident (Davis's) because it happened to me, breaking four ribs and my larynx... and I was aerotowing using a dolly. The shit happened so fast there was no room for thought much less action. But I wasn't dragged because the weaklink did its job and broke immediately on impact.
I was ALSO *VERY HAPPY* to see that you had a nice weak link when that happened to you at Marty's place near Rochester.Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 14:13:55 UTC
As I pointed out in a link in this thread. I was very happy to have a nice weak link when that happened to me at Marty's place near Rochester, NY.
So happy to hear that? How? What rating? What piece of shit were YOU thinking you could use as a release?Tormod Helgesen - 2011/08/28 15:04:22 UTC
Weaklinks have saved my ass to...
Yeah, just ANNOYANCES, small things. Never REAL problems - not compared to REAL safety factors....the annoyance of a broken weaklink is a small thing compared to the safety factor.
http://ozreport.com/13.238If you can't tow with a low strenght weaklink, you shouldn't tow at all.
Yeah Tormod, bunch of totally incompetent douchebags. (And YOU'RE calling ME an idiot?)Adam Parer - 2009/11/25
Aiborne Gulgong Classic
New South Wales
Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.
That was EXTREMELY selfless and brave of him. Especially after I almost killed him a couple years ago by sending Paul up with something about that strength.Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC
Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata.
Yeah, maybe just a coincidence. And maybe just thirty years of bullshit theory, incompetence, stupidity, apathy, negligence, coverup, and corruption resulting in weak links half as strong as they are assumed to be and a third as strong as they need to be.We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
Or because the dickheads who run the flight parks...Tormod Helgesen - 2011/08/28 17:34:43 UTC
Thank you for your answer Jim, I understand what you're saying.
Sometimes weaklinks break for no apparent reason, maybe caused by a bad section of material, hard knot or something the pilot does.
...use a totally clueless good rule of them which is total bullshit...Quest Air
A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider.
...never bothered to actually TEST the weak links they've been forcing everyone to use for the past twenty years...Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong...
...and are too fucking stupid to understand that 200 and 350 pound gliders don't really give a rat's ass about typical gliders....about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider.
Nah, if it's blowing when everything's straight, level, and fine definitely don't even think about increasing the strength. Jim's giving us God's Honest Truth and that's something you DON'T wanna be messing with.In any case it's better than not breaking in a lockout. It's tempting to increase the strenght instead of figuring out why it breaks, that's just human nature, but you shouldn't.
And God looked down upon His kingdom and was pleased.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:09:40 UTC
A quick, "yes", to all this.
It's refreshing to hear a bit of sanity.
The same Adam who tells everyone that a single loop blows at 520 towline and a double at 1040? That Adam?Here's my favourite "no apparent reason" story. It's my favourite because Adam...
Oh DO tell us about the others sometime. Save them for treats on rainy days....figured out what it was, and no, it's very not apparent. There are others of course.
With the knot...Adam had recently shown someone how to tie their own weak links.
Yes, do go on...Quest Air
...hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.
Yes, DO tell us all that the reason we're blowing Greenspot like popcorn is because we're all crappy pilots.This guy was a solid pilot and didn't suffer from any of the usual "pilot induced" break habits (I'll get to that).
And this was unusual enough to be noticed at Ridgely how?Well, he had a spat of breaks.
MY GOD!!! That might get him up to 77 percent of what you douchebags think they are!!! Somebody stop him before he kills himself! Or - even worse - a TUG DRIVER!!!Frustrating for sure.
Yup, started thinking he should double up.
Again, why would this be unusual enough to merit note?I mean, they were breaking at the slightest jolt. Pretty smooth air stuff...
Gonna tell us his flying weight? Oh, right. At Ridgely from 200 to 350 pounds everybody flies the same weak link. So Karen's eating of too many cheese burgers has the exact same effect as Greg's eating of too many cheese burgers.WTF?
Bad line? Too many cheese burgers? What?
And that was the end of weak links blowing at Ridgely for no apparent reason to the idiots that inhabit the place and everyone lived happily ever after - except of course Tad the Evil Child Molester who got sick and tired of all the shoddy dangerous incompetent bullshit that was going on and was banished and never seen again.Nope.
An extremely subtle twist in the way the guy tied them was the culprit.
Looking at them, you wouldn't notice it. You really had to examine them.
One line crossed the other.
The two would saw themselves apart.
Adam tied his next one and *poof*, no more problems.
Yeah, I could use a little air myself after all that flatulence, Jim.I'll submit this one and continue in a sec.
Gotta have some breathing room
But NEVER because they're only about two thirds of the legal minimum FAA sets for sailplanes in REAL aviation.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC
Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.
No shit - you half-witted little motherfucker.The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".
The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be.
Yeah, BTDT. On one of the best potential flying days of my life.It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.
No you don't. But if I gave it to you and you survived it no worse than you did your little Coronet Peak adventure I guarantee you that you wouldn't forget it.I get it.
http://ozreport.com/13.238It can be a pisser.
Nah. Really not a problem.Adam Parer - 2009/11/25
Airborne Gulgong Classic
New South Wales
Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.
http://ozreport.com/9.011But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.
Yeah, better to err on the side of caution. You wouldn't want people getting up and away on the first shot 'cause they might lock out and die. Much safer to have them making repeated attempts with really safe weak links.Davis Straub - 2005/01/13
Tom Lanning had four launches, and two broken weaklinks and a broken base tube. He made it just outside the start circle.
I didn't think God's Special Little Messenger needed to do disclaimers.Anyway.
Now that the disclaimer is done...
How much more? Oh, right, you just told us - a hell of a lot more. Is that English or metric hell units? So at what tensions do loops of 130 pound Greenspot blow when smoothly and shock loaded? Where's the data?One of the biggest bits that seems to be under appreciated is the bit that weaklinks break under shock loading.
They can take a hell of a lot more force if they're loaded slowly...
Really? I actually don't recall ever experiencing, seeing, watching on video, or hearing about any shock loading that occurs in lockouts. And people like Mike Haas seem to die just fine in lockouts severe enough to kill them with their 130 pound Greenspot holding just fine to well beyond the point of no return....which is exactly what happens in a lockout.
Yeah, right. The ones up high enough to be able to let go and try to hit the junk you sell them.Most people don't experience this first hand.
It's because most pilots will hit the release before the weak link breaks... as they should.
Just not the ones running Wallaby:Most pilots understand this concept. I'd say almost all do.
...and Quest:If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.
The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air.
Yeah, but they already know from just hearing God's Special Little Messenger - "a hell of a lot more force".Now, it happens fast.
Many pilots still get off line quick as well.
So most have not seen just how much force it takes to break a smoothly loaded weaklink.
Yeah, that too. Way more. How much more nobody can say for sure - but it's just obvious that it is.It's way more than you'd imagine.
Yeah, you always feel this BIG JOLT in a severe lockout a millisecond before the weak link blows. It's not like in a smooth lockout in which there is no jolt.What most have experienced is a weaklink that breaks due to shock loading.
Yeah, VERY.This is very different.
EXCEPTIONALLY easier.They break so exceptionally easier under shock loading.
You got any numbers on that? Just kidding.Even that initial pull on the cart is a severe shock load when compared to a lockout.
Shithead.The trouble is, this is what pilots are familiar with.
So it's natural to start thinking about what a weaklink "should" be in relation to shock loading and missing the reality of a smoothly loaded weaklink and the sheer speed of a lockout. As I pointed out before, they are exponential in nature... you hit a "tipping point" and then all hell breaks loose.
Who haven't yet been through the Flight Park Mafia brainwashing process yet and still retain some dangerous vestiges of common sense.Most people get this.
So I'm sorry for boring you with what you know already.
It just needs to be pointed out from time to time, especially when the old misconceptions start rearing their heads or when you've got people new to all this showing up.
Right Jim and Bart... It's not like in sailplaning where a 600 decaNewton Tost weak link blows when the tension hits 600 decaNewtons. Physics don't apply to hang gliders so there's no point in using actual numbers or groundings in reality.Bart Weghorst - 2011/08/28 20:29:27 UTCWhile this may sound a little arrogant, there is a lot of truth in it.So most have not seen just how much force it takes to break a smoothly loaded weaklink. It's way more than you'd imagine.
So do we get to hear a number for the line tension or the weak link strength? Just kidding.I have had a 582 Dragonfly with a 200 pound pilot in it pretty much suspended vertically from my North Wing T2. Tiki was my passenger. This situation lasted so long that the tug pilot (Neil Harris) had enough time to idle all the way back while looking straight at the ground.
And as we ALL know SO WELL, a weak link will ALWAYS blow in time to save you in a fast lockout - even, according to Ryan Voight, on a payout winch.This was while practicing slow lockouts at altitude.
Yeah. No apparent reason. Couldn't possibly have been because the line tension exceeded the capacity of the weak link.On other occasions, the same weaklink broke for no apparent reason.
Sounds like you've got your shit really together! Not even the slightest warped little pretense of knowledge of or deference to numbers. Hang gliding taken to its purest level. Now THAT'S professionalism!Now I don't give a shit about breaking strength anymore. I really don't care what the numbers are. I just want my weaklink to break every once in a while.
I'll put it on my list of places to tell people to avoid like the plague.
And that's probably about how long it's gonna take to get numbers back into a sport controlled by assholes who smacked into Peter Principle walls when they learned to fly Dragonflies up and down.Joe Faust - 2011/08/28 21:06:06 UTC
All,
If a missing relevant link is noticed on the following page, please send the link to me; thanks:
http://www.energykitesystems.net/Lift/hgh/TadEareckson/index.html
For about 2000 years people high jumped in various ways. Then came an upside-down form Fosbury Flop; such changed the sport nearly overnight.
Thanks to those who have sent relevant links for the weak-link studies.
To what? Just kidding, "increasing dramatically" does it for me.Marc Fink - 2011/08/28 21:11:09 UTC
I once locked out on an early laminarST aerotowing. went past vertical and past 45 degrees to the line of pull-- and the load forces were increasing dramatically.
What were you using for a weak link? Just kidding.The weaklink...
The weak link blew AND THE GLIDER *STALLED*?!?!?! I thought your troubles were always OVER the instant the weak link blew!...blew and the glider stalled...
Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC
It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.
During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?
Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release
Whoa!!! DUDE!!! Sure is a good thing you weren't at 225 feet, huh?...needed every bit of the 250 ft agl to speed up and pull out.
Carlos is using a loop of 130 on a two point bridle which holds longer than whatever the asshole on the Dragonfly slapped on ten months ago. And he loses TWICE what you did.Carlos Weill - 2008/11/30 19:24:09 UTC
2008/06/02
On June of 2008 during a fast tow, I noticed I was getting out of alignment, but I was able to come back to it. The second time it happen I saw the tug line 45 deg off to the left and was not able to align the glider again I tried to release but my body was off centered and could not reach the release. I kept trying and was close to 90 deg. All these happen very quickly, as anyone that has experienced a lock out would tell you. I heard a snap, and then just like the sound of a WWII plane just shut down hurdling to the ground, only the ball of fire was missing. The tug weak link broke off at 1000ft, in less than a second the glider was at 500ft. At that point I realized I had the rope, so I drop it in the parking lot.
...he just did a routine wingover and quickly recovered. So I guess it's just a bad idea to try to assign numbers to hang gliding weak links. So we should just keep telling everybody that stronglinks are dangerous and 130 pound Greenspot will always break before you can get into too much trouble - as long as you're over 250 feet. Or 500. Or whatever. And, of course, totally independent of your flying weight - which nobody ever bothers to mention anyway.Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC
The lockout Lauren mentioned was precipitated by my attempt to pull on more VG while on tow. I have done this before but this time the line wouldn't cleat properly and while I was fighting it, I got clobbered and rolled hard right in a split second. There was a very large noise and jerk as the relatively heavy weak link at the tug broke giving me the rope. I recovered quickly from the wingover and flew back to the field to drop the line and then relaunched after changing to a normal weak link. I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
And, on behalf of the gene pool, let me be the first to tell you how HAPPY we all are!I'm alive because I didn't use a stronger one.
Yeah Marc, we should all fly with backup loops so Wills Wing can not deburr their grommets and we can not preflight our gliders. And we should fly with backup sidewires too - for similar reasons.So how about wheels and single hang straps (seeing how we've exhumed the dead horses)?
How high? Oh yeah, you just told us - VERY high.Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/28 21:38:10 UTC
I broke one weaklink at the same meet Davis is talking about. Line went slack and when it loaded again - POW - gone before the slightest pull. It was a very high shock load.
"WENT to release"? Where did you go? Off somewhere to try to find the actuator? How much time and roll did that cost you?Years before that, got a bit sideways in a tow, quickly headed towards a dramatic lockout, went to release and at the same moment the weaklink broke. Closest I came to a loop.
Yeah, this is just a shit happens, dice roll sport - ain't it Kinsley?In the first case, I never thought about a stronger weaklink. It happened just as Jim described, sudden load, pow, gone. Annoying, back of the line and missed the start gate. But some times that stuff just happens.
So you were OBVIOUSLY over 250. Or 500. Or whatever.The second time I described, if it had been a stronger link, i could have been in real trouble.
1. Release, weak link? Don't you have that a bit backwards? The weak blows while you're GOING FOR your release in a lockout.Release, weak links on the glider and tug, another release on the tug and finally a hook knife. Loads of redundancy and a pretty good track record. One fails and there are multiple backups. Finally, if you aren't confident you can land from a weaklink break at 2 -6 feet off the cart, add wheels to the equation.
Yep, not when the conversation and the direction of the evolution is controlled by total idiots.Nothing is ever perfect...
WE? Who the fuck do you think "we" is?...but this is one area where I think we've got it mostly figured out.
Yeah, there's just no weak link failure situation a REAL pilot can't fly himself out of. So why even bother asking why we're using weak links that are routinely failing just as you let go.Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 22:09:48 UTC
Make sure that you have enough speed on the cart that you can fly away if the weak link breaks just as you let go.
Pilot and release doing the jobs of the pilot and release and one and a half G weak link doing the job of the weak link?Joe Faust - 2011/08/28 22:35:49 UTC
-
Weak-link futurisms?
-
[ ] ?: Smart weak links? Pilot would be given realtime status report of the precise remaining strength of the weak link installed. The full shock history of a particular weak link would be recorded and computed in the consideration.
[ ] ?: No-knot weak links that are with the above smarts.
[ ] ?: Dial-a-weak-link's-strength weak links that have the above two characteristics.
[ ] ?: Tracked standardized manufacture of weak links having the above three characteristics.
Shocks of small-to-large size begin changes in any given particular weak link.
What is the present condition of safety critical lines?
How will the condition be reported?
How will the system react to the given data? Etc.
Start:
http://www.gleistein.com/assets/pdfs/Smart-RopEx-Project-Description.pdf
http://www.energykitesystems.net/akitei1.gif
Releases AND weak links? Nah, a weak link is just a particular flavor of release. We've all known that for thirty years.Bill Cummings - 2011/08/28 23:18:41 UTC
Releases and weak-links
Yeah, well, OBVIOUSLY. 'Cause the gliders all blow at different loadings for the different styles of towing.Concerning weak-links and releases in the discussions of late it occurs to me that pilots are stuck in a paradigm when really each towing style or format whether it be: AT, PL, or ST require different considerations when it comes to weak-link strength. The weak-link strength also depends on the varying equipment being used for these different styles of towing.
Whoa! Dude! Pretty scary. Almost makes me not wanna fly in that environment. But think of all the fun I'd be missing!My wife and I along with my towing friend, Don Ray, froze every release that came down the pike when snow machine towing on the frozen lakes of Minnesota. Three ring, two ring, three string, two string, link-knife, Johnson in line, Switzer, and I'll have to ask Don what some of the other releases were named that we tried and proved inadequate for that environment.
Maybe God was trying to tell you something.We would get a little bit of slushy snow on or in the works of any release and at altitude they would freeze and fail to release.
I call it a load tester.I viewed pictures of Tad's bench testing machine (for the lack of me coming up with a better word for it.)...
You also didn't see or read where Tad packed a barrel release with molten lava or plutonium and document what happens....but no where did I see or read where Tad packed a barrel release with slushy snow stuck it in the freezer and bench test how many lbs of pull it would take to overcome the ice and then release.
There's a lot less slushy snow at Wallaby and Quest than there is in Minnesota during the winter. There's also a lot more flying at Wallaby and Quest than there is in Minnesota during the winter. Maybe there's some kind of correlation thing going on. Maybe we could get some grant money and do a careful scientific study.While no one was bench testing frozen releases at Wallaby and Quest we were field testing releases during the Minnesota winter. We never came across any reliable winter release.
Especially in all the violent thermals and slush devils for which frozen lakes are so notorious.(But one---)
It would seem quite apparent that not being able to release we all must have eventually over flown the towline, locked out, and died many times over right?
And that would've been somehow worse than continuing to tow over frozen lakes in the Minnesota winter?If we had had a 2 "G" weak-link we would have certainly died.
I have no freakin' idea. Seems like we plummeted down the rabbit hole a long time ago.Why?
This is why God gave us hockey and ice fishing.The back of the snow machine would have lifted up enough to lose traction and eventually the pilot would enter a lock-out. (The driver releasing two thousand feet of line would not be the answer either since it's too much drag.)
If you were gonna skip stuff you shoulda started a long time ago.Next it would be time for letting go of the bar and trying the big mitten and hook knife fiasco - you would think - but we skipped over that step.
Oh good. That way you all could come back NEXT weekend for possibly even MORE fun.We all lived because there was only one reliable release that NEVER failed us and allowed us to keep both hand on the bar and never relinquish control.
I thought you said the pilot never had to relinquish control?What was the name of this release?
It was called: WEAK-LINK!
With the radio, on constant TX, the pilot would tell the snow machine driver to, "Break my weak-link."
Being in control means staying on and getting off the line at your discretion.If the radio would fail the driver would have stopped short of the shoreline for the pilot to release. If the pilot didn't release the driver would take off again and go wide open on the throttle and break the weak-link.
In aerotowing we tend to PULL IN at the time of release to REDUCE the tension and avoid the stall.When the rope went tight the pilot would push out four inches, the 0.8 "G" (224 LBS for my all up weight of 280 lbs.) weaklink would let go.
Even in those violent thermal conditions?The pilot would pull in 8 inches and fly on. Never even coming close to entering a hammerhead stall or ever being concerned with a uncompleted loop or tumble. Just simply fly on.
Yeah?I would never use a 0.8 G weak-link for Aero-tow.
http://ozreport.com/12.081Jim Rooney - 2007/07/19 14:50:52 UTC
And yes, get behind me with a "strong link" and I will not tow you.
Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTCWeaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
There's no such thing as TOO safe - I mean "light".That is too light.
Two.With the threaded three...
ALL of which can be minimized to the point of virtual nonexistence and otherwise easily compensated for....point bridle that may not unthread for various reasons...
As shoddy as almost all aerotow operations tend to be, how much of a problem is getting stuck with the rope proving to be?...I don't want to "get the line" that low. I want to get away from the ground and then have time to get rid of the line or wrap it all up and shove it into my harness.
Not from the perspective of the asshole who's driving the tug and dictating what's safe and what isn't for you.I would not want a weak-link to blow unexpectedly near the ground just off the dolly. More trouble can happen with this launching style, blowing a weak-link, than when platform towing.
And the people retrieving the launch dolly less comfortable - Matthew Graham didn't make himself real popular with the dolly monkeys.Staying on the launch dolly longer and getting more speed before lift off makes me more comfortable.
When was the last time you heard about a tug being endangered by a glider? They've got releases that actually work.But just like Jim Rooney says you could push out and break it. Way short of putting the tug in danger. I'm with Jim on this.
Off of a platform I really don't care if it breaks at any time. I launch with enough speed to fly away from the truck even without a towline.
Under MOST circumstances.1990/07/05 - Eric Aasletten - 24 - Intermediate - 2-3 years - UP Axis - platform tow - Hobbs, New Mexico
Reasonably proficient intermediate with over a year of platform tow experience was launching during tow meet. Homemade ATOL copy with winch on the front of the truck. Immediately after launch, the glider pitched up sharply with nose very high. Apparently the angle caused an "auto release" of the towline from the pilot, who completed a hammerhead stall and dove into the ground. Observer felt that a dust devil, invisible on the runway, contributed or caused the relatively radical nose-up attitude. Also of concern was the presumed auto release which, if it had not occurred, might have prevented the accident. Severe head injury with unsuccessful CPR.
And, of course, it's not like you could actually RELEASE yourself using a RELEASE.There will be ample landing area to each side of the runway or I won't fly.
I'm more with Jim on this issue than with Tad. But each fellow here has made statements that are all inclusive that really are not:Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC
Where this discrepancy comes from is truck towing.
See, in truck towing, a weaklink does next to nothing for you (unless the line snags).
This is because you're on a pressure regulated system... so the forces never get high enough to break the link."
Polypro. Always a good idea to have a lot of STRETCH to pretend that you're adhering to Donnell's "Constant Tension" mandate while, in fact, doing the precise opposite.This may always hold true with light weight, aluminum LD, Tow me up, or ATOL type winches (reels) but my boat winch was made by Sky Dog Bob in Canada. It was a big, heavy, all steel, winch and took a good deal of inertia to get it rolling or even accelerate to a higher payout RPM.
Even with all the stretch of the three thousand six hundred feet of 3/16 inch Poly-Pro., rope...
SAVING THE DAY. Any time you blow off tow for ANY reason, the day has just been saved....I could push out and break my three hundred lb weak-link and fly away. That size weak-link would blow before the heavy drum could get up to speed and keep from breaking the weak-link. (Reliable inertia saving the day.)
Dave Broyles - 1990/11
I talked to a lot of pilots at Hobbs, and the consensus was that in the course of Eric Aasletten's accident, had a weak link break occurred instead of the manual or auto release that apparently did occur, the outcome would have been the same. Under the circumstances the one thing that would have given Eric a fighting chance to survive was to have remained on the towline. The pilot must always take full responsibility for his own safety.
A steak might do the trick eventually, but a stake would be a lot quicker - and my choice.Tad wants to drive a steak...
No, I'm pretty sure he won't. 'Cause as long as you bozos keep pointing to all the times you can get away with this kind of shitrigged approach to aviation and conveniently ignoring the costs and downsides everyone will continue flocking to shitrigged releases and pretending that weak links are as good or even way better solutions....through the heart of the idea of breaking a weak-link as a back up release. Hopefully he won't be successful.
If you think that weak links are the only important things in this or any discussion with Rooney we gonna have some major issues.I think weak-links are the only important part that we disagree on. All the other things I'm sure we could hash out, fine tune and come to an agreement.
Well that's a GOOD thing, isn't it?I don't want to fly on LD winches mounted on the front bumper since the driver can not increase my tension from the cab.
I mean we ALL know this, don't we?Jerry Forburger - 1990/10
High line tensions reduce the pilot's ability to control the glider and we all know that the killer "lockout" is caused by high towline tension.
Sorry Bill. I don't do IF I have a release failure. I've seen what can happen.That is important to me. If I have a release failure...
Yeah, you do that, Bill. You do that when you're low and locking out and see what happens....or capture while platform towing I want to be able to command, "Break my weak-link,"...
Bill Bryden - 2002/02
This tragic accident vividly demonstrated how rapidly a lockout can occur, and teaches the lesson that pilots must NOT be hesitant to release when their glider gets turned too much. Unfortunately, I can not effectively communicate how quickly and aggressively this may occur. Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.
Understanding how incredibly fast this can occur, we should question and reexamine the procedures and equipment utilized to abort a tow.
How 'bout using the RELEASE to RELEASE?...and for it to be possible not just feed me more line.
Yep. You almost never will.On winches with too much rope on them there is always too much line dig going on and I use a 350 lb weak-link (1.25 G.) and still never enter a hammer head stall or start a loop when it fails.
Which, under the FAA's regulations for sailplane towing would be illegal for any glider over two hundred pounds.I go to a field where the hydraulic stationary winch will not break a 160 lb weak-link for five flights in a row.
As long as nothing much goes wrong.It climbs out fine.
There's a reason that just about all aircraft in REAL aviation use all the thrust they have available to get in the air and away from the ground.I have stood in a boat and hand over hand pulled slack into the boat with the pilot at a forty five angle to the boat and not climbing. I would guess it takes less than 40 lbs to do that.
520 was what Chad and Adam Elchin were telling everyone - including me and Rooney - was the towline tension that a loop of 130 pound Greenspot would hold to on a one or two point bridle. The difference is that one day I said "Wait a minute..."I've kited my hang glider on the ocean beach with my 125 lb wife holding the end of the tow line. (I drug her when I pushed out.)
If you could only develop 70 lbs of line tension for a 280 lb (all up) weight it would work fine. Of course if your runway is short you will end up with beefy weak-links and climbing fast.
All this 2 G talk, (560 lbs weak-link for me)...
Yeah Bill. Great. Use dangerous TRICKS you can get away with MOST of the time instead of spending the effort to do things right....would have eliminated a very important use that I have in my bag of proven (Time after time,) survival tricks.
Yeah - if they're stupid enough to use polypro.Anyone that uses a two point bridle for static towing and has a 560 lb weak-link absolutely has to put the bridle and weak-link between two cars and break the weak-link and watch what happens to the ring at the towline.
Yeah - if they're stupid enough to use polypro.I disagree with the next quote:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)Too strong of a weak-link will launch the ring on a two point (1 to 1 or 2 to 1) bridle at the pilot when it breaks.Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC
Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster.
Gregg Ludwig - 2006/01/22 18:15:15 UTC
I just can not understand why operators continue to use poly towlines (for aerotow ops) when spectra towlines are clearly superior. Poly is less expensive...but when considering the cost of a tow plane and HG and the advantages of spectra, a few dollars of savings is foolish.
Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster.
Bullshit. In a critical situation you may not live even if your release WORKS. And there's NO SUCH THING as SAFELY breaking a weak link in any situation that matters.If my release fails and I can't safely break my weak-link and fly on, I'm headed for disaster.----Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster.
Gilbert Griffith - 1996
As far as theory of lockout is concerned, I doubt whether there is any cure and bugger-all time for theory if you're stuck in it. All the ones I have seen are over within seconds.
Hey Tommy,Tommy Thompson - 2011/08/29 11:45:15 UTC
WhitewaterThis type line always raises red flags in my head, because it's almost always the answer you get when you ask the question "Why'd you buzz that ramp or crowd", "Why are you flying with a bike helmet", "Why are you flying without a weaklink".Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC
See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.
We are told USHPA can't sell weaklinks, but can the safety committees post recommendations?
So use whatever the fuck you feel like. 0.5 and 2.0 are both totally and equally safe and cool.The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc.
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
10. Hang Gliding Aerotow Ratings
-B. Aero Vehicle Requirements
05. A weak link must be placed at both ends of the tow line. The weak link at the glider end must have a breaking strength that will break before the towline tension exceeds twice the weight of the hang glider pilot and glider combination.
Dave Broyles - 1990/11
The North Texas Hang Gliding Association met on October 5 and discussed Lindsay's article. Between us we have a bunch of towing experience of all types. We have five tow rigs represented in the club, three private and two club owned. Two are ATOL and three are trailer rigs. We tow a lot. We came to a consensus about a number of things that directly dealt with Brad's article.
1) The weak link breaking strength should be between 100% and 150% of the combined weight of the glider and pilot (the gross load) being towed, but each pilot should be totally responsible for his own weak link.
Yeah Bill. You've got Rooney on your team. You're fucking GOLDEN now.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/29 13:40:42 UTC
Wow Bill. Thanks for such good information.
Which is precisely what makes truck towing such a bloodbath - no ability to shock load the weak link.Yes, I will happily concede the "weak link does nothing in truck towing" point.
Which makes it different from aerotowing how?It's overarching and outside my area of expertise.
Yeah, pressure towing. Kinda similar to pressure cooking.I was trying to drive home the difference between static towing and pressure towing.
Not unless you wanna tow behind this asshole.Tommy.
You've got to be kidding me.
You're equating rationalizations of reckless behaviour to differentiations of experience?
Sorry if you can't see the difference.
"I know what I'm doing" and "I know what I'm talking about" are two very different statements.
I never told you to take me at my word.
Then he owns you, your glider, and your equipment - in addition to your thrust and the decision on when he should kill it for you.Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC
Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.
It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.
BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.
Regardless of how much sense the people Little Mister Know-It-All defines as inexperienced are making and how incredibly fucking stupid the tug drivers are.I said I'm sick to death of inexperienced people arguing with experienced people.
I wouldn't worry about it too much. Your "mind" is very easily boggled.It boggles my mind.
I won't. Dangerous bullshit is dangerous bullshit no matter how many hundreds or thousands of times you get away with it.Have a look at Bill's post above... do you think that I'm going to argue with him about payout/trucktowing/etc? Hell no. That's not my gig... and it is his. I sit back and take notes.
Aren't you gonna say anything about how the obviously insanely overstrength weak links being used at BOTH ends of the towline were such huge threats to the tug?Any questions I have are about him clearing things up for me... not the other way around and certainly not for an argument.
Jim
Oh yeah... Bart... HOLY SHIT! Wow.
Yeah, it sure is a good thing that neither you nor your buddy Steve Wendt have any blood on your hands - isn't Davis?Davis Straub - 2011/08/29 14:52:06 UTCYou apparently have not been following my articles on the co-chairman of the USHPA Safety and Training Committee.Tommy Thompson - 2011/08/29 11:45:15 UTC
We are told USHPA can't sell weaklinks, but can the safety committees post recommendations?
Yeah...Actually this would come from the Towing Committee. You have heard from Steve Kroop (through others) here.
So you're saying that Rooney's full of shit?Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC UTC
Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster.
...
Weak links do NOT prevent lockouts and no amount of weak link rules will prevent lock outs
In the event of a lock out releases are there to save the pilot
The problem that I see is that the people who REALLY know what the fuck they're talking about and how to demolish assholes like Rooney and Davis aren't allowed to post here.Tommy Thompson - 2011/08/30 00:50:40 UTCThe problem I see, is not everyone comes here and some don't even go online...Davis Straub - 2011/08/29 14:52:06 UTC
You have heard from Steve Kroop (through others) here.
Yeah - useful information in the magazine. Competence and safety stuff. Like that's gonna happen....the information also needs to be in the magazine.
And they know they'd get their balls handed to them in about two seconds if they were engaged by anyone with half a brain or better.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/30 02:16:16 UTC
They're not here cuz they don't feel like arguing all the time.
And they NEVER hafta be subjected to any scrutiny or accountability. So why even think about opening that can of worms?Most of the other people "in the business" don't come here cuz it turns into a shouting match too often.
Uppity. Like niggers and paedophiles. And nigger paedophiles.Look how uppity people got when I even termed people "in the business" "professional pilots".
Professional means you got paid to fly. It doesn't mean you know what you're talking about and don't totally suck at your job. And it doesn't mean your rotten little profession knows what it's talking about and doesn't totally suck at its job.It's accurate, but some got all offended. They couldn't stand that someone doesn't see their uninformed opinion as holding as much weight as an informed one.
Then maybe you should go into electronics - 'cause you don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of ever knowing (very) basic aviation.I know (very) basic electronics...
Why? You've got your buddy Davis there to make sure you never hafta answer any of the questions which will reveal you to be an idiot....but I don't argue with the electrician about which capacitor he uses for the timing circuit in my toaster. It's just not my field.
I know a lot of regular joes that do the same... for the same reason. There's a lot of lurkers here that really really do not care to get sucked into the mud.
I can't blame them, I avoid this place on a regular basis.
Yeah? We've got entirely different concepts of really nice people. I find hang gliding tends to be almost entirely devoid of them.It's a shame too, cuz there's a lot of really really nice people in HG. Most are.
Like the drivel the guys at Dynamic Flight write?And all this sewing circle, drama queen bullshit...
Yeah. "INFORMED". Ya definitely got that right....keeps a lot of very informed people away...
Yeah. I'll bet we do. Best ways to pry open bent pin releases, best hook knife handling techniques, best grip to use on the basetube when you're hanging from it, how to write fatality reports and blame everything on pilot error....ya'll miss out on a lot.
Well, that's OK 'cause we have you to distill it and give us the absolute best of what's out there.The actual "insider" discussions, that you never see, are so much better.
Stupid lying little shits like you don't merit civility.But man oh man, do people not feel the need to even be civil here sometimes.
I have.Have a think about that next time you're off on a tirade.
(not directed at you Tommy, just in general)
Yeah, just don't expect any results of thinking to make any difference whatsoever whenever you hook up behind Rooney or any of these other assholes.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/30 03:20:19 UTC
Classic misunderstanding.
No one told you not to think.
Yeah, you contradict yourself all the time - but it never seems to matter.In fact, I've said quite the opposite.
Yeah, understanding comes only with acceptance of God's honest truth. An argument only occurs when you start questioning it.There is however a very definite difference between seeking understanding and seeking an argument.
And QUESTION GOD'S HONEST TRUTH!!! I don't think so.I've not told you to take things on faith.
You should have. That's what people who resist being INFORMED deserve.I have however responded to uninformed arguments with "well, what the f*ck do you know?".
No, it's a fuckin' atrocity.Take the whole premiss of this thread for example.
"Is this a joke?"
No, it's the kind of response you tend to get AFTER someone's done the critical thinking and understands just what kind of scum he's talking to.This is not a critical thinking question.
THE SOPs!!!This is a lead in to an argument.
The poster has already made up their mind... with a limited background... and is now challenging SOPs of very experienced people and a long vetted process.
But none of you very experienced motherfuckers give a rat's ass about making the slightest pretense of following them. And if they're wrong you don't do shit to change them to anything "better".A weak link must be placed at both ends of the tow line. The weak link at the glider end must have a breaking strength that will break before the towline tension exceeds twice the weight of the hang glider pilot and glider combination. The weak link at the tow plane end of the towline should break with a towline tension approximately 100 lbs. greater than the glider end.
A release must be placed at the hang glider end of the tow line within easy reach of the pilot. This release shall be operational with zero tow line force up to twice the rated breaking strength of the weak link.
Yep. That and a little logic and numbers free science and math is your response to just about everything.So yeah, I feel the response of "well, what the F do you know?" to be rather appropriate.
Yeah. They're probably restrained by numbers and reality over there. But this is hang gliding so you can say whatever the fuck you feel like and get away with it.And yeah, there is a timing capacitor in your toaster.
But knowing this little bit of electronics doesn't compel me to log onto electronics forums and start picking fights.
Steve Davy - 2011/08/30 05:33:20 UTC
I posted a link, nothing more.
I think he asked some questions about weak link strengths, why they were blowing from the front end first, and what their purpose was. And got shit for answers.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/30 06:00:14 UTC
Bullocks
If you have no purpose, then don't post.
You do have purpose, you're just not owning up to being called out... again.
Even if you weren't trolling before, you are now.
Get bent.
Bye
Yeah. Too sensitive. USHGA doesn't want people to know what a bunch of incompetent, negligent, murdering bastards they all are.Tommy Thompson - 2011/08/30 11:25:21 UTC
IMO it's not "is it a joke" but, "what's the joke"
Say USHPA received a number reports of mishaps on mid-day flights that went from bad to worse, and one thing they had in common was the pilot was wearing a half-shell helmet or that in each case the pilot had done over 20 flights that day.
Or that the primary cause of aerotow operation crashes were failures of 130 pound Greenspot weak links.
yet this information is not available because it was deemed to sensitive by USHPA to release to the flying community.
So what you're saying (if I'm following you correctly) is that if a four hundred pound weak link is subjected to a towline tension - continuous or shock - of:Mark G. Forbes - 2011/08/30 18:05:15 UTC
Shock loads are surprising. I was doing some testing on a packaging concept for a product I designed a few years ago. It's a rack-mount computer chassis, and I wanted to keep the peak load below 8G. When I began testing, I was astonished to discover that a simple thump on the tabletop was good for over 40G force.
We think of 10G acceleration as being an upper limit where most normal people black out and stop functioning, but in fact we're subjected to forces much greater than that every day in the ordinary course of life. We don't see that sort of force on a continuous basis though, so we don't notice it.
Your weak link can handle the moderate continuous pulling force, but give it a bit of slack followed by a push-out and it'll pop because of the peak shock load.
...the blow point VARIES by a HELL OF A LOT depending upon the nature of delivery.One of the biggest bits that seems to be under appreciated is the bit that weaklinks break under shock loading.
They can take a hell of a lot more force if they're loaded slowly... which is exactly what happens in a lockout.
I think we DEFINITELY oughta be going with God on this one.Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC
Jim, as I am starting to play with Elektra Tow (ET) at Quest Air (the battery powered "scooter" tow system you and Adam got me jazzed up about up at Highland) I've watched this thread closely. We all can learn.
Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
USHPA towing recommendations already describe the kind of weak link that should be used.
Yeah. The zero to two G kind. With recommendations like that how could the pilot possibly go wrong? (Unless he wants to tow with something other than a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot (- new or fuzzy.).)The weak link at the glider end must have a breaking strength that will break before the towline tension exceeds twice the weight of the hang glider pilot and glider combination.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600We don't say exactly how to achieve that result, nor should we. We tell you what the recommended performance should be, and it's up to the pilot to determine how to get there.
Yeah, sure Mark. It's up to the pilot. And isn't that what USHGA is all about anyway? PILOT controlled aviation? It's not like we pilots are gonna let ourselves get pushed around by a bunch of shitheaded ultralight drivers.Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC
BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.
Could be? How 'bout the Jeremiah Thompson / Arlan Birkett twofer - 2005/09/03. Yeah, there WERE definitely other things going on but there always are. Robin Strid wasn't killed ONLY because his "release" jammed.Zack C - 2011/08/31 02:45:17 UTC
Sorry about the delayed response...I'm on vacation with limited computer access.
No one seems to address the fact that with everyone using 130 lb Greenspot weak links, light pilots are capable of seeing significantly higher G loadings than heavy ones, and yet among the lighter crowd we aren't seeing the dead pilots Jim says we'll see with stronger weak links. In fact, I have yet to see a single account of an incident attributable to too strong a weak link (and I know of several incidents that could be attributed to too light a weak link).
Just refer to the test strength of the Greenspot. Jim was taught - à la Quest - that a single loop blows at 260 and a double at 520. And Ridgely - à la not Quest - figured that that translated to 520 and 1040 towline because on the end of a bridle was actually not the same as on the end of the towline.Just so that my position is clear, I believe that the universal use of 1.5 G weak links makes a lot more sense than the universal use of 130 lb loop weak links.
Tad initially used 1.4 because that's smack dab in the middle of the FAA's allowable range for sailplanes under the assumption that there was something special about 0.8. There isn't, it's too low. But 1.4 is actually a pretty good number.I got that from Dynamic Flight (Rohan's school), but it's also in the middle of the FAA's allowable range. (I know what FAR 91.309 says...I didn't mean to suggest the manufacturer's recommendation was legally binding...only that it exists.)Flyhg:
I believe that the 1.5 G thing is something Tad made up.
By professionals...Jim,Like I said, disagreement among professionals...Jim Rooney:
Yeah, I've read that drivel before.
It's a load of shit.
...Jim only means the other assholes who are on the same page of fiction that he is.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC
It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
C'mon, Zack, Ridgely and all these other clones now typically tow three strands on the Dragonfly bridle and four on the tandem. Hell, Lookout doesn't even have a weak link on the tandem AT ALL. Do you honestly believe that these professionals would violate the rules if it weren't perfectly safe for them to do so?Why? Because the tug can see higher line tension with the stronger link? Isn't that the same weak link typically used by tandems? Isn't it the job of the tug's weak link to limit the tension the tug can see anyway? What is the tug pilot going to do differently armed with this knowledge?Jim Rooney:
He knows that you're changing the equation and because of this, you need to ask the tug pilot.
Also...isn't it is not so much the magnitude of the tow force that endangers the tug (and glider) pilot but rather its direction? As a tug pilot, would you rather have 500 lbs pulling straight aft or 240 pulling straight up? Could not even a glider using a 130 lb Greenspot loop put the tug pilot in danger?I will defer to your experience on this. The theory, for those that don't know, is that Dragonflys typically use at most four strands of 130 lb Greenspot as a weak link (correct me if I'm wrong) - the same as the glider pilot in the discussed scenario. However, the tug weak link sees more tension than someone towing one point ('pro tow') because the apex angle of the tug bridle is much greater than that of the glider's bridle. But regardless, the fact that there's a good chance that the tug weak link could break first is enough to be a problem to me.Jim Rooney:No, actually it doesn't.Zack:
Except the tug weak link will almost assuredly break first.
In theory it does.
In practice, it's not so cut and dry.
Sometimes it goes, sometimes the tug's goes.
It's not really necessary - especially since the bent pin releases lock up at well under weak link load anyway.Why would you want to? Shouldn't releases be protected by weak links anyway?Jim Rooney:
Try fitting a straight pin release with anything but weaklink.
It's because that's what Bobby happened to have had lying around within arm's reach when he slapped that crap together and all the adoring cult members followed in lockstep because none of them is capable of anything remotely resembling a thought process.Are you saying that straight pins were considered initially but discarded because you have to use weak links with them? Just wondering what the reason curved pins are used is.Jim Rooney:
Just might be that we've thought of that eh?
Regarding curved pin releases failing, have you seen this one from Bart?Thanks for your time.But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
Marc,A stronger weak link would have still broken, just maybe not as soon. But what if this same incident happened when you were 50 feet lower? Jim says you're stacking the deck in your favor using a lighter weak link, but I'd rather not have to rely on luck to save me. So why didn't you release?Marc:
I'm alive because I didn't use a stronger one.
Oh really? Has that ever once been recorded actually happening in the course of a hang glider lockout? Or is that just some bullshit that people who can't think things through very well keep speculating will happen?Marc Fink - 2011/08/31 08:11:05 UTC
This all happened in a few seconds--in a lock out the line/bridle will likely be caught in your corner bracket further complicating things.
Oh. "This all happened in a few seconds" and you were STILL "in the process of reaching for the release"? Let's say "a few" seconds is three. By three seconds you couldn't release, your weak link hadn't blown, and you were just about to go for a 250 foot plummet. Way to be the Pilot In Command of your aircraft, dude.I was actually in the process of reaching for the release and just about to pull it when the weaklink blew.
So what fucking moronic place did you put the release such that you had to "reach for" it?Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
(What a loss to the towing community that would be.) But you don't seem to have any problem with your buddy Rooney, God's Special Little Messenger, telling all individual pilots...If procedures were amended to "insist" on stronger weaklinks I would simply stop towing.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308Jim Rooney - 2007/07/19 14:50:52 UTC
And yes, get behind me with a "strong link" and I will not tow you.
...what they can and can't use on their gliders.Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC
A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
Yeah, note the way the weak link ALWAYS keeps the glider from smashing in - just like it did for Marc.Steve Davy - 2011/08/31 08:19:18 UTC
Hang Glider Lock-Out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnrh9-pOiq4
MorphFX - 2011/03/20
A hang glider pilot learning to aerotow starts a mild PIO that leads into a lock-out.
dead
02-00319
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7523/15601000807_705ab49977_o.png
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5606/15600335029_3c234e6828_o.png
14-03708
http://www.kitestrings.org/post6995.html#p6995
Millions. Until you're sick to death of arguing about it.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC
Oh how many times I have to hear this stuff.
But they're totally incompatible with God's Honest Truth so you're having NONE OF IT! Good on ya, Jim! You're making God very proud!I've had these exact same arguments for years and years and years.
Yeah, the Flight Park Mafia must be getting a bit behind with its brainwashing programs.Nothing about them changes except the new faces spouting them.
NO!!! What assholes! When they OBVIOUSLY should only listen to that which supports YOUR *OPINION*.It's the same as arguing with the rookie suffering from intermediate syndrome.
They've already made up their mind and only hear that which supports their opinion.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1238Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.
Lauren Tjaden - 2006/02/21 20:37:39 UTC
I thought I should post this since the phone keeps ringing with friends worried about Jim and wanting information. Here is what I know. Yes, the Jim in the article is OUR Jim, Jim Rooney. It was a tandem hang gliding accident, and it involved a power line. I have no more information about the accident itself. The passenger apparently was burned and is hospitalized, but is not seriously injured. Jim sustained a brain injury. He was and is heavily sedated, which means the doctors don't know and can't test for how serious the brain injury is. He is in critical but stable condition.
George Whitehill - 1981/05
Just doing a hang check is not enough. Don't get me wrong, a hang check is a very important step that should be done prior to every launch. A hang check shows the pilot that he/she is the correct height above the bar. It also assures the pilot that harness lines and straps are untangled.
The point I'm trying to make is that every pilot should make a SECOND check to be very certain of this integral part of every flight. In many flying situations a hang check is performed and then is followed by a time interval prior to actual launch. In this time interval the pilot may unconsciously unhook to adjust or check something and then forget to hook in again. This has happened many times!
If, just before committing to a launch, a second check is done EVERY TIME and this is made a HABIT, this tragic mistake could be eliminated. Habit is the key word here. This practice MUST be subconscious on the part of the pilot. As we know, there are many things on the pilot's mind before launch. Especially in a competition or if conditions are radical the flyer may be thinking about so many other things that something as simple as remembering to hook in is forgotten. Relying on memory won't work as well as a deeply ingrained subconscious habit.
In the new USHGA rating system, for each flight of each task "the pilot must demonstrate a method of establishing that he/she is hooked in, just prior to launch." The purpose here is obvious.
Yeah Jim, they're MANUFACTURED. By the Cortland Line Company - specifically for the purpose of serving as the ideal weak link for all solo hang gliders with flying weight from 165 to 360 pounds. One or two point bridles.Nobody's talking about 130lb weaklinks? (oh please)
Many reasons.
Couple of 'em for ya... they're manufactured, cheap and identifiable.
From hundreds of yards away!Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC
I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.
You mean the plane that wouldn't exist unless I paid for it? The plane I'm paying to get me and my glider to where I wanna go? That plane?See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please.
Yeah, motherfucker? But you don't have any problem whatsoever dictating your shoddy safety margins for MY PLANE?Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins...
That's odd.I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch.
'Cause you don't seem to have any problem whatsoever diving your passenger into the powerlines so you can have a chance at saving your own incompetent, useless, cowardly goddam ass.The Press - 2006/03/15
Extreme Air tandem gliding pilot James (Jim) Rooney safely clipped his passenger into the glider before departing from the Coronet Peak launch site, near Queenstown, CAA sports and recreation manager Rex Kenny said yesterday.
However, he took off without attaching himself.
In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.
Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.
But if it's STANDARD gear...So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you.
...everything's fine.Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
Yeah, I remember the kinds of stupid Nazis that were saying that forty years ago. You'd have fit right in.Love it or leave it. I don't care.
So please, find me something... that you didn't make...
Yeah Jim, you LOVE innovation. Just not anything an actual person can come up with...Jim Rooney - 2010/12/18 20:12:54 UTC
I love innovation.
Just something that comes from a fishing line company....that I can go out and buy from a store...
So that you can cut a length of 130, tie a Fisherman's Knot to form a loop, install the loop onto a bridle with the knot centered in a Double Lark's Head so it's "hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation", assume that it blows at 260 pounds ("about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider"), and tell everyone and his dog that it puts him at 1.0 Gs - the RECOMMENDED strength for a hang glider weak link....that's rated and quality controlled...
When 130 pound Greenspot has such a sterling track record for the one size fits all mission....that fits your desire for a "non one size fits all" model...
Now obviously the loop of 130 blows at the ideal point halfway between a Falcon 3 145 minimum (165) and a T2 maximum (360) - 262.5 pounds flying weight. The TYPICAL glider. So the G rating - before you throw in the issue of one or two point bridle - has got an acceptable deviation of plus or minus 37 percent....and *maybe* we can talk.
Yeah, that's because hang gliding takes all the people too stupid to do anything else and trains them to fly ultralights up and down all day long. The problem is that they all have egos in inverse proportion to their cranial capacities and think that this ability automatically makes them all qualified engineers and gives them unlimited authority and powers as regulators.But you see... I'm the guy you've got to convince.
(or whoever your tug pilot may be... but we all tend to have a similar opinion about this)
You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.
So you were LYING to support the fiction you want people to believe.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC
I've seen too many people walk the "strong link" road only to find out the reality of things.
So why should ANYONE ever believe ANYTHING you EVER say?I don't know if that's the one he got locked up for, but I know the one he got locked up for was not his last.
I believe the other one(s) was younger.
I didn't have the stomach to delve into further detail.
He has been banned from every flying site he's ever set foot at and some he hasn't.
Nobody swims in this river without using our Great White Shark repellent. We've been running this operation for twenty years, we've had a hundred thousand swimmers, and we've never had a Great White Shark attack. (Helluva lot of crocodile attacks however. The shark repellent seems to attract the Salties in droves.)You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.
"light" weaklink issues?
"I had to land"... boo hoo.
May you rot in Hell for six eternities. And then may you rot for twelve eternities in the Hell to which the regular Hell sends all the real assholes.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be.
It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.
http://ozreport.com/9.011Oh, I thought of an other one... I smashed into the earth after my weaklink let go cuz I fly as badly as I tow, and I'm only still here cuz my weaklink didn't let me pile in harder.
Shitty competition pilot.Davis Straub - 2005/01/13
Tom Lanning had four launches, and two broken weaklinks and a broken base tube. He made it just outside the start circle.
Shitty flight park operator with shitty student.Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/13 19:47:26 UTC
The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.
Shitty excuse for a human being.Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC
I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.
And get to give it another couple of shots that day...In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.
Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.
...instead of being hospitalized, but not seriously injured. But, who knows? She probably would've locked out, had her bent pin release jam when she finished reaching for it, and piled in harder.The passenger apparently was burned and is hospitalized, but is not seriously injured.
You mean against your extensive database of hard scientific evidence? Like:Your anecdotal opinion is supposed to sway me?
?I've seen too many people walk the "strong link" road only to find out the reality of things.
But WE'RE the one's who actually EXPERIENCE the tows, stalls, and crashes.You forget, every tow flight you take requires a tug pilot... we see EVERY tow.
Whatever it is it's WAY too fucking many.We know who the rockstars are and who the muppets are.
Do you have any idea how few of us there are?
Not for a nanosecond. But all talk and no brain doesn't necessarily produce positive results.You think we don't talk?
There it is, Zack. It's all about their OPINION. Great smoking gun moment.I'll take our opinion over yours any day of the week.
He have doesn't have a freakin' clue just how badly he just shot himself and his fellow dickheads in the foot.Tad Eareckson
2011/04/20 18:54:37 UTC
Hang gliding has gotta stop being opinion based aviation.
2011/06/19 22:36:56 UTC
Oh good. You're gonna make up your OPINION based upon other people's OPINIONS. Glad we don't have a bunch of boring engineering standards to sort through.
2011/07/18 19:07:51 UTC
Some more good news is that this has zilch to do with the points of views of anybody but Sir Isaac Newton. Hang gliding is the only branch of aviation that's opinion based. As soon as we start doing it by the numbers - the way everyone else does - we're gonna start seeing a lot less death and destruction and getting a lot more airtime and having a lot more fun.
2011/08/19 14:45:06 UTC
Depends heavily upon whom you're talking to in this science free, opinion based sport.
I would be too right now after hearing from millions of people millions of times that I didn't know what I was talking about.Ok, I'm tired of this.
I think he's got all the people with IQs of sixty and up. It's the other 99 percent that's gonna be a tough sell.I'm not really sure who you're trying to convince.
I wouldn't either if I were a total moron.Again, I don't care to argue this stuff.
Not the ones that reveal you to be the total fraud you are.I'll answer actual questions...
THE answers? That's just a wee bit presumptuous, don't ya think?...if you're keen to actually hear the answers...
Yeah. When everything's opinion based anyway, just how far are you expecting to get?...but arguing with me? Really? Have fun with that.
I'm still waiting to hear Ridgely's "thinking" on using the same loop of 130 pound Greenspot (260 pound direct load - according to the late Chad Elchin) as a lockout protector for 200 and 350 pound gliders.Gimme a call when you think of something that we haven't already been through years ago... cuz to date, you have yet to come up with anything new.
Yeah. You've heard it all a million times before.Well, maybe it's new to you I guess. It's old as dirt to me though.
Yeah. MAJOR damage on this one. We can make sure that the crap Jim's been spouting will haunt him for the rest of his hopefully short and tragic life.Steve Davy - 2011/08/31 10:11:32 UTC
Zack figured it out. Well done Zack! Enjoy your vacation.
Yeah douchebag. It's SO OBVIOUS that Jim knows what he's talking about and Zack is clueless.Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC
Well actually he didn't. But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
And if you want to buy a car with seatbelts, feel free to get it from the factory Ralph Nader built.Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...
Now just how sporting is that? Next thing we know you'll be wanting to eliminate spot landings from the rating requirements.Zack C - 2011/08/31 17:38:50 UTC
Marc,To me, that is the problem. Not only does it take time to reach for a release, you can't fight a lockout with one hand. I stack the deck in my favor by refusing to use a release I have to reach for.Marc:
I was actually in the process of reaching for the release...
If you'd just get off of all this 1.5 G crap you'd have an instant hands free release.Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC
It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.
During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?
Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release
But at least one person who's had his microphone cut is. If Marc:No one here is advocating that.Marc:
If procedures were amended to "insist" on stronger weaklinks I would simply stop towing.
We NEED a minimum, Zack. They've got one for sailplanes - 0.8 G. That's dangerously low - even for them - but at least they've got SOMETHING.I'm advocating the opposite - that we don't insist on anything, other than perhaps staying within USHPA's SOPs (which allow up to 2 Gs).
Like, in the non hang gliding sense of the word "standard", Lookout and bent pin releases.Jim,Surely since you guys have arrived at the 130 lb loop as the ultimate weak link you must have tried stronger links before and decided against them because of all the carnage that resulted. Otherwise, saying 130 lb is best is just as much 'theory' as saying something stronger is.Jim Rooney:
You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.
But regardless, when I learned to fly at Lookout, they suggested two loops of 130 for heavier pilots. (They also allow you to tow with other 'non-standard gear'.)
Did you visit John Simon in the hospital after you Ridgely assholes got him so hardwired about standup spot landings that he flew into a taxiway sign and broke both arms?And not everyone tows at flight parks. At our local club, I use a 1.3 G weak link and the tug uses a ~600 lb one. I'm quite happy with that arrangement.How can you reconcile the above two quotes? Have you ever visited someone put in a hospital because they used too strong a weak link?Jim Rooney:
Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.
Bill and Mike were totally screwed by the time the weak link blew. The only two things that might have done them any good at that point would have been a parachute or a tug with a lot more power than the one they had could've delivered. Jeremiah Thompson / Arlan Birkett is a MUCH better example.A sudden loss of line tension will result in an increase of the glider's angle of attack, which may cause a stall. Near the ground this could be fatal. Bill Bennett and Mike Del Signore were killed this way. Yes, there were other factors in that incident (there usually are), but it doesn't change the fact that it would never have happened if the weak link had held.Jim Rooney:
"light" weaklink issues?
"I had to land"... boo hoo.
Date, name, flying weight, site?I know someone who broke a wrist after a weak link broke upon leaving the cart. He had to maneuver to avoid landing on the cart and was thus unable to set up for a proper landing. He stayed prone and one side of the base tube hit first with his hands still on it. Blame it on the pilot, but what percentage of the flying population would have fared better?
No, just impossible to answer without sounding like a total douchebag.The Cortland stuff is available in different breaking strengths, including 200 lbs.Jim Rooney:
So please, find me something... that you didn't make... that I can go out and buy from a store... that's rated and quality controlled... that fits your desire for a "non one size fits all" model, and *maybe* we can talk.
Also, Stuart Caruk sells line calibrated to various strengths:
http://www.towmeup.com/weaklink.html
You may have to order it, but I suspect most flight parks order their Cortland anyway.My questions weren't 'actual'?Jim Rooney:
I'll answer actual questions if you're keen to actually hear the answers, but arguing with me?
Good one.I'm not trying to sway you...I'm giving you the opportunity to sway me.Jim Rooney:
Your anecdotal opinion is supposed to sway me?
I once shared your position and am open to reverting back to it, but it's going to take a lot more than asserting it's correct because 'we've already thought about that'.Jim Rooney:
They've already made up their mind and only hear that which supports their opinion.
Joe Faust - 2011/08/31 18:07:45 UTC
Been following the thread and don't recall if the following question has been faced:
Has the tow line torque been studied and measured for hang glider towing operations? The line untensed as base; then upon tensing, the line develops some torque; without swivel the torque is there.
What significance would line torque be at release-- intentional or not, at weak link break? Bille made a quick comment to one of mine in the thread surrounding the occasion of wrap of weak link.
Listening. I do not have answers or links on this question.
Yeah, we'll need to work on that problem a bit.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 19:49:08 UTC
Zach,
I'm not trying to sway you...
See, that's the thing here... you're trying to sway... you believe this is a discussion where one side "sways" the other. Argument isn't the right word as it's a bit harsh cuz you're being quite civil (thank you).
Betchya didn't see THAT coming.It's just not the case...
This is going to be a bit harsh, but I honestly don't care what you think.
You're not the one making the decisions here.
Donnell Hewett - 1982/09
Skyting is designed to give the pilot more control over his flight than any other member of the flight crew.
We need to take back control of this sport and make these stupid arrogant assholes understand that a tug driver is just another crappy piece of tow equipment. Their sole reason for being is to serve US in our objective of getting to altitude. That's the job WE'RE paying THEM to do. They're NOT the Pilots In Command of these flights any more than a goddam truck tow driver is the Pilot In Command of any of THOSE operations.See if you can convince a tug pilot to tow you, with whatever gear you like, then you're sweet.
But we're the ones you need to convince, not the other way around.
So if anyone's trying to "sway" anyone, you need to convince me.
And like I said, I'm over it.
Except when it DOESN'T. Then the focus is all on cover-up.Joe,
I have no idea. NASA's team was busy, so we went with what we had. Any "engineering" that's gone into all this may be "crude", but it's sure been "practical". It works.
And when you do...The onus is on you to show me a better way.
...you can go fuck yourself anyway. 'Cause your straight pin release is "untested" and "unproven".A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
Fuck you.But bear in mind... you need to show a higher bar.
And fuck whatever bitch failed to drown you at birth.So much of these discussions boil down to pointing out flaws in what we do now, not showing better ways.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230No system is perfect, so pointing out flaws is easy and can always be accomplished.
Coming up with something better, well, that's a hard nut to crack.
Many have tried, and I'll tell ya straight from the start, it's the little things you don't think about that get ya, not the obvious ones.
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC
Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.
And when we don't try...Please also realize when you "try", you're experimenting with your life.
...we risk dying about fifteen different time proven stupid ways every time we go up.Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
Oh how PROFOUND. Dickhead.Oh how often the gravity of that escapes people.
OF COURSE THEY HAVEN'T, JOE! Don't you think that if somebody had come up with something better everybody would be using it already? Don't you think that if it had been conclusively demonstrated on the ground AND in the air that bent pin releases weld themselves shut under load that everyone and his freakin' dog would've IMMEDIATELY gone with straight pins?Joe Faust - 2011/08/31 22:44:12 UTC
Thanks for your time and attention on the questions, Jim. Appreciated.
I will do some due diligence to see if anyone has faced the questions.
Yeah, let's make seat belts with wider, thicker, stronger webbing so when we send kids onto the highway with absolute shit for steering, braking and transmission systems they'll be less likely to be killed when they plow into trees and stall out on railroad tracks.Maybe line torque in various towing scenes, line torque with connected mixed lines, etc. has been carefully studied; some of what I might find might bring on matter that could help set a higher bar. The wrap at weak-link break and the various release-recoil reports bother me; and I suspect line torque in mixed-line assemblies may be part of what might be in any design toward a higher bar for HG towing. I will bring items forward, if found; maybe with something ...you or others could also move toward a higher bar. The change of conditions of lines used (tow line, weak-link, bridle) over time and use and storage might affect immediate line torque and performance.
I suspect releasing and weak-link breaking experiments could be done to a significant extent without risking human life. I have a tall pecan tree in my rear yard and some water bags; perhaps shock and recoil of mixed lines could be done with these... to complement what others may have found.
Knowing the immediate weak link's remaining integrity and strength would be neat.
Smart weak-link system futurism, as earlier post in this thread noted, is of interest.
No-knot weak links interests me; I'd like to see the systems not have to deal with the knot variations and the shock history at the knot.
Dialing a weak-link's precise G rating for the immediate tow attracts my attention.
Specifying the lines used in a set of experiments would be baseline, as each line will have its line-torque character.
Thanks Jim, for bringing up the term "higher bar" to this old high jumper.
Reminds me of the tens of thousands of times I aimed to clear higher bars. And this just reminded me of Quicksilver HG designer Bob Lovejoy ; we high jumped against one another in high school and then later I and my wife flew his first Quicksilver.
Lift,
Joe
That's EXACTLY how important weak links are. Make them all 1.5 and then start worrying about REAL issues.Ake Larsson - 2010/02/13 16:31:31 UTC
In the my part of the world (flatland Sweden) where you have to tow to get some airtime no one uses weaklinks, I belive it is the same in Finland. Even most of the beginner training is done on tow in Sweden and whitout a weaklink. Play the %, a weaklink might save you one serious accident in a hundred years but will give you a lot of smaller accidents when it breakes.
The engineering task is ten year old kid stuff - use a straight pin instead of a bent one, put the lever where your hand is, use a weak link to protect the glider instead of preventing lockouts... The task is getting you fucking assholes to get your stupid shoddy shit out of the air and start using sane equipment and procedures.Jim Rooney - 2011/09/01 00:46:07 UTC
No worries Joe.
Seeking a better solution is not a bad idea. I'm not sure many people out there fully appreciate what a task it truly is... but that's not to say that everyone doesn't.
And never EVER test anything on the ground. Just follow Flight Park Mafia protocol - slap together whatever you feel like, declare it the pinnacle of human engineering, stamp out ten thousand copies, throw it in the air with anyone stupid enough to buy, and don't tell anyone when it starts failing left and right.I'm not kidding when I point out that once you start testing, you are indeed testing with your life on the line. Before you're testing however, there's a lot less at stake.
Yeah. Fuck theory. We don't need no steenking THEORY.So have at it... just remember that the line between theory and practice is a monumental one.
Yeah Jim.Good luck.
Luck is what Flight Park Mafia aviation is all about.Zack C - 2011/08/31 02:45:17 UTC
But what if this same incident happened when you were fifty feet lower? Jim says you're stacking the deck in your favor using a lighter weak link, but I'd rather not have to rely on luck to save me.
Steve Davy - 2011/09/01 01:03:57 UTChttp://www.energykitesystems.net/Lift/hgh/TadEareckson/mousetraps.pdf~18. Construction - Shear Links
#01. Objective
A properly constructed Shear Link will maintain its integrity to its breaking point, failing instantly and cleanly.
Right Bill, you shouldn't even look to see what the fuck he's talking about. You should just get one and use it. Moron.William Olive - 2011/09/01 01:22:08 UTC
Don't bother going there until you have used them.
No, but it was about four or five years ago when I came up with it.This isn't a new idea.
"We" who? I'd be astonished if you ever used anything that didn't come off a very particular spool of fishing line.We used shear links in the past...
What exactly is that reason? Somebody locked out and the link held? Somebody stalled when it didn't hold? Somebody broke a glider 'cause the "pressure" got too high?...and there's a reason we don't use them now.
Work to what? Prevent lockouts, stalls, and broken gliders? Break before you can get into too much trouble?String links work.
Bullshit. There is NOTHING "SAFE" about a weak link failure. They break for one of two reasons...String links fail safe...
- Name something that anyone who wasn't a total idiot has used for a weak link that gets STRONGER when it's degraded (disregarding, of course, the fact that ALL weak links get stronger when smoothly loaded)....(ie anything that degrades them makes them weaker).
- Funny the way in REAL aviation that a degraded weak link is actually considered DANGEROUS.Tost Flugzeuggerätebau
- Use only the weak links stipulated in your aircraft TCDS or aircraft manual.
- Checking the cable preamble is mandatory according to SBO (German Gliding Operation Regulations); this includes the inspection of weak links.
- Replace the weak link immediately in the case of visible damage.
- We recommend that the weak link insert are replaced after 200 starts: AN INSERT EXCHANGED IN TIME IS ALWAYS SAFER AND CHEAPER THAN AN ABORTED LAUNCH.
- Always use the protective steel sleeve.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726Associated Press - 2011/07/17
Hollywood, Maryland
Police announced Sunday that 55-year-old James Michael Dayton of Mechanicsville was killed Friday when the glider he was riding in crashed into trees near the airport in Hollywood.
Authorities say the pilot was 53-year-old Nicholas John Mirales of Prince Frederick. Mirales was in critical condition when he was flown from the crash scene.
A National Transportation Safety Board spokesman says the Slingsby 49B glider crashed shortly after takeoff when it became disconnected from its towing plane. The NTSB is expected to release a preliminary report of the accident within ten days of the crash.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14221William Olive - 2005/02/11 08:59:57 UTC
I give 'em the rope if they drop a tip (seriously drop a tip), or take off stalled. You will NEVER be thanked for it, for often they will bend some tube.
And you just can't figure out why glider pilots aren't lining up to shake your hand after you keep them safe by crashing them, can you? How 'bout you do your fucking job, worry about your own safety, and let us do and worry about ours? Asshole.William Olive - 2008/12/24 23:46:36 UTC
I've seen a few given the rope by alert tug pilots, early on when things were going wrong, but way before it got really ugly. Invariably the HG pilot thinks "What the hell, I would have got that back. Now I've got a bent upright."
The next one to come up to the tuggie and say "Thanks for saving my life." will be the first.
Thanks for the plug, Bill, but jeez... Ten year old kid common sense stuff - ALL of it.Bill Cummings - 2011/08/31 01:09:33 UTC
Tad was proved correct: Re personal pilot accident report.Tad's photos show where equipment can fail to release which made me say, "Holy excrement! I never thought that would snag!"Tad Eareckson - 2010/12/14 23:22:29 UTC
So they just keep on doing things the way they've always done things 'cause that's the way everybody's always done things - for twenty years.
Fuck the damned knot. The goddam stupid weak link was about a foot longer than it needed to be. Yes, it caught on the knot. But there was plenty enough material for it to tie plenty of knots all by itself. If you throw rocks at Grizzly cubs and are a second and a half too late getting up the tree the reason you got killed is not because your running shoes weren't tied tightly enough.On the Oz Report there are pictures of a wrap where to me it looks like a weak-link whipped around a carabineer and hooked itself over the improper knot and didn't allow a Pro-Tow two point bridle to release.
This wasn't one little tiny deviation plus a little creep in the length of a weak-link loop. This was incompetence, gross negligence, arrogance, and stupidity of the most inexcusable kind.Just one little tiny deviation plus a little creep in the length of a weak-link loop can take the outcome from desirable to deadly in no time at all. ("Hey, what could possibly go wrong?")
Accident? If this stupidity had mangled or killed somebody it wouldn't have been any more an accident than was the Shane Smith fatality at the beginning of this year.Just where does an accident start.
It started nearly twenty years ago when the assholes that run this sport finished perfecting aerotowing. Same time they moved the primary release actuator off the basetube and onto the downtube.Does it start the night before a flying day when the pilot was making up weak-links spares for the next day of towing? Or does it start with the snag upon attempting to release the next day?
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534Were we rushing to make up weak-links for the next day and sloppily tied one too long which will enable it to wrap, capture, and fail to release?
Just one seemingly small deviation from the norm can set a new course of events for any of us.
Does that sound like the weak link was the result of a rush job the night before, that ONE was sloppily tied, just a small deviation from the norm? Don't you also have to sloppily CUT the Greenspot before you sloppily tie it to get something that stupidly overlength? I got news for ya. When the Flight Park Mafia is running the show slop and deviation IS the norm.Lauren Tjaden - 2011/07/29 15:16:29 UTC
Secondly, although the weak link wasn't tremendously large, in retrospect it could have been smaller. Apparently the longer the weak link the greater its propensity to wrap. I also included a photo showing the size of the weak link. (I removed it from the 'biner after taking the photos.) Just a reminder for folks to keep their weak links on the stingy side.
Starting to understand how a total shithead like Rooney can be considered to have a keen intellect by the morons who count him and Bo as friends?Apparently the longer the weak link the greater its propensity to wrap.
Paul Voight's "Whack Tape" comes to mind.All that said just to say this---and this is the start of my personal pre-hang gliding accident report...
...Before I get to the injury part of my accident report I want to let it be known that I am fully aware that there are brothers and sisters in my sport of hang gliding that are the type to yell, "Whack," when some pilot does poorly on their flare timing.
Isn't that what hang gliding is all about? Give people stupid dangerous equipment and procedures (half G weak links, Quest and Bailey releases, standup and spot landings), convince them they're required for their safety, and then talk about what crappy pilots they are for not being able to cope?I want to be clear that I think that anyone that can find any humor in some else's misfortune to be "Warped," or "Twisted."
Sorry. Hope that improves with time.Interesting point here: In 2009, 2.2 million nonfatal fall injuries among older adults were treated in emergency departments and more than 581,000 of these patients were hospitalized.
In an effort to not become an additional statistic with a broken hip I did my best to brake my fall and was successful in mitigating my potential injuries. I was able to brake my fall by abruptly encountering the left front corner of the washing machine with the right elbow's crazy bone area. Except for some extended numbness in my right pinky finger and the finger next to it I seem to have come out okay.
This is not what happened here and this is not why we have towing crashes.For those pilots that have a serious interest in safety I hope that this accident report is another shining example that proves that just the smallest change in your procedure or equipment that can develop into a serious equipment malfunction (In my case a wardrobe malfunction.) that can lead to bigger unforeseen consequences.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
http://ozreport.com/13.238Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC
Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033Adam Parer - 2009/11/25
Airborne Gulgong Classic
New South Wales
Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.
Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC
But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.
People elect to go up with a dozen or so obvious, known, stupid problems because they get away with it just about all the time, every couple of years things line up well enough for someone to get bit hard, the fatality report is written by the owner of the operation who sold him and sent him up with the junk and taught him the crap, then a couple of years later the same thing happens again.Marc Fink - 2011/08/31 08:11:05 UTC
I was actually in the process of reaching for the release and just about to pull it when the weaklink blew.
Yeah, we could NEVER use anything like that in Flight Park Mafia towing. 'Cause they're not cheap and you can't go out and buy them from a store.William Olive - 2008/12/28 02:58:54 UTC
I'm pretty sure you will see a weak link on the sailplane tow system, most likely a very expensive Tost one.
Interesting that you had the time to piss all over my Shear Links but didn't have the time either to read anything about them or tell God's Special Little Messenger he was full of shit with respect to weak links having a function as anything other than to prevent the load on the glider from exceeding the glider's structural limits.It's a myth that the weaklink is there to save you in a lockout. Its only job is to prevent the load on the glider from exceeding the glider's structural limits.
Billo
God's Special Little Messenger on bits of string and Tost sailplane weak links:Adi Branch - 2009/07/02 12:50:02 UTC
I have to chirp in on this.. I know I'm a noob and all that, but Tad seems to be talking sense to me. From what I can gather the US has some quite different (dated?) ways of doing things which it appears are not used here in the UK, and some of the reasons I've heard cited for not using these methods relate directly to accidents in the US.
For instance, the idea of tying your own weak link is absolute nuts to me, as is using a bit of string for the job! Over here it's aluminium only (sailplane style link) and if I turned up with a bit of tied string, I'd be shown the exit road.
I dunno... Maybe I'm missing something, but if someone (who appears to be knowledgeable in his field) is suggesting some aspects of towing methods are unsafe (to which as an outsider I agree with him), then why are there criticisms and not constructive arguments or additional input to rectify these issues?
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/25 20:49:28 UTC
One criteria is of course that they are recognizable... to me... not you.
But that's not it. They are kept because they have a huge track record. That's really hard to argue with.
I've yet to hear anyone successfully do so.
Plastic links...
"Manufactured by Bob" doesn't meet my criteria.
They are not manufactured to tolerances. They're not "manufactured" at all... They are a material that some guy found consistent enough to feel comfortable about. He cuts holes and tests, but it's still Bob in his backyard. He doesn't make the plastic, so he has no control over the quality of it.
That said, I'd feel a whole lot better about these than Tad's stuff.
Jim
Yeah, I got them mixed up.Tad Eareckson wrote:Jeremiah Thompson / Arlan Birkett is a MUCH better example.
I had to search my email archives for the original report and found it wasn't a weak link break but a premature release (defective Lookout model). It happened in March of '09 at Lookout. I was writing from memory...could have sworn it was a weak link break. Anyway, I've corrected it on Oz.Tad Eareckson wrote:Date, name, flying weight, site?
