http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2808
Weaklink Break
Davis Straub - 2006/06/15 12:46:29 UTC
The tug's weaklink breaks as I come off the cart.
http://ozreport.com/10.116#3
On the second day of the ECC competition just as I came off the cart the tow line went slack when it came detached from the tug (but not from me). You can see what happened then as Jim Rooney filmed it. You can find the results on video
here. Or even better in the key frames
here
Flying a foot or so off the ground on the base tube pushing out was pretty interesting, all with a good ending.
Davis Straub
http://ozreport.com
http://ozreport.com/worldrecordholder.php
The tug's weaklink breaks...
How do you know? How do you know the:
- tug driver didn't fix whatever was going on back there by giving you the rope?
- front end:
-- bridle didn't increase the safety of the towing operation?
-- of the towline didn't disintegrate and precipitate the inconvenience?
On the second day of the ECC competition...
...2006/06/05 - with four days left until the end of the comp and ten days prior to this post...
...just as I came off the cart the tow line went slack...
Whoa! Total loss of thrust just coming off the cart.
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
Pretty ugly feeling - I'd imagine.
...when it came detached from the tug...
Wow. And u$hPa less than three months ago...
http://www.ushpa.aero/advisory.asp?id=1
USHPA - Safety Advisory #1
USHGA - 2006/03/15
Should the tandem glider become unattached from the tug...
David G. Broyles, Chairman of Safety and Training Committee
Steve Kroop, Chairman of Tow Committee
Paul Voight, Chairman of Tandem Committee
...had a safety advisory on that very issue in response to an inconvenience precipitated double fatal at Hang Glide Chicago on 2005/09/03. Good thing you're bringing this up for discussion now to increase awareness of this issue.
...(but not from me).
Why not? What was STOPPING YOU from subsequently detaching it from your end?
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Davis Straub - 2013/03/10 14:09:22 UTC
I've had no problem releasing my barrel release hundreds of times.
In other words, on the occasions in which it would be important to release using the cheap bent pin shit you fly with, sell, mandate for use at u$hPa comps...
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg
...you might as well be using a combination padlock as your primary release. Reminds me of the hundreds of flights Rafi Lavin had skipping his stomp tests or the hundreds of flights Joe Julik had going upright on final with no problem.
You can see what happened then as Jim Rooney filmed it.
Any chance we can see the video Jim Rooney's wing camera was filming while he was trying to climb back up into his control frame after launching his 2006/02/21 tandem thrill ride at Coronet Peak with only his passenger hooked in?
You can find the results on video
here.
No we can't.
Flying a foot or so off the ground on the base tube pushing out was pretty interesting...
Yeah, that sounds really INTERESTING. And I just love INTERESTING flying just off the cart. I find it really odd that nobody ever ELECTS to do this kind of flying and nobody runs clinics...
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2016/10/22
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
11 Hang Gliding Special Skill Endorsements
-A. Special Skills attainable by Novice and above (H2-H5).
05. Aerotow (AT)
-f. Must demonstrate the ability to control the glider position within the "cone of safety" behind the aerotow vehicle. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.
...in order for pilots to master the relevant skills.
...all with a good ending.
So you're saying that this good ending was something of pleasant surprise / stroke of luck, right?
Notice, people of varying ages, the conspicuous total absence of any hint of a mention anywhere in the thread of the issue of having 250 feet of two thousand pound Spectra...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
...draped over one's basetube. Anybody having any trouble understanding why?
Acmeaviator - 2006/06/16 14:02:47 UTC
You the MAN! I like to think that I would react as smoothly and skillfully were I in that situation - truthfully I'd have most likely pounded in hard
What's the big fucking deal, Aviator? This sorta thing is a mere inconvenience that any halfway competent Two should be able to handle in his sleep.
Davis Straub - 2006/06/16 14:21:28 UTC
As soon as I saw that the rope was slack I pushed out because I assumed that I was going to go sliding in on my skids on the base tube. I've done this before.
And you've had hundreds of flights in which you've had no problem getting off tow with the cheap bent pin shit you use a release.
This turned out to be the right thing to do as it was also a flare as I had plenty of speed coming off the cart and it was just enough speed with just enough flare to get up on the downtubes and run it in.
So you got...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26854
Skids versus wheels
Andrew Stakhov - 2012/08/11 13:52:35 UTC
So I just came back from flying in Austria (awesome place btw). Stark difference I noticed is a large chunk of pilots choose to fly with skids instead of wheels. Conversations I had with pilots they say they actually work better in certain situations as they don't get plugged up like smaller wheels. Even larger heavier Atosses were all flying with skids. I was curious why they consistently chose to land on skids on those expensive machines and they were saying that it's just not worth the risk of a mistimed flare or wing hitting the ground... And those are all carbon frames etc.
...LUCKY, right? And in this instance:
http://ozreport.com/16.024
Upcoming shoulder surgery
Davis Straub - 2012/02/01 16:49:54 UTC
Cathedral City, California
I experienced a full tear of the tendon on September 22nd at the Santa Cruz Flats Race after I tripped while running out a landing on the third to last day.
you DIDN'T - despite the advantage of having had the benefits of being in a totally benign situation coming in for a normal with tons of setup time.
David Giles - 2006/06/16 15:20:02 UTC
Nice quick reflexes Davis!
- Yeah, truly masterful.
- And now YOU suck HIS dick, Davis.
This past weekend I had almost the exact same thing happen to me at Lookout, except that it was MY weaklink that broke coming off the cart.
- Wow! A serious incident like that and it didn't merit a sixteen post Davis Show thread? How come?
- What was wrong with it? Third tow without having replaced it so it was no longer up to factory specs?
I didn't feel like I could get upright in my harness fast enough...
Nah, you obviously wouldn't have the lightning quick reflexes of a Davis Straub.
...to pull off a flare (fairly new harness for me), so I just slid in on my belly.
What? You were landing in an area that didn't have large rocks strewn all over the place?
Not as pretty as your landing, but fortunately the ATOS slides in on the basetube quite nicely when the ground is reasonably smooth.
Something that almost never happens in hang gliding. Consider yourself extremely lucky.
David Giles - 2006/06/16 20:26:15 UTC
If you get the right frame, you can actually see the tow rope going slack, but still hanging in the air:
Christian Williams - 2006/06/16 20:33:53 UTC
What was the probable cause of the weaklink break?
Probably wasn't tied with the knot properly hidden from the main tension in the loop.
Bart Weghorst - 2006/06/16 20:49:25 UTC
Tug pilots pitch their prop for maximum thrust at towing speeds.
So when the tug gets close to the speed at which it normally climbs out, the prop suddenly becomes much more effective.
And there's NOTHING that blows hang gliding aerotow weak links like effective takeoff power. That stuff is nothing to mess around with.
This is when the accelleration is at it's maximum.
Unfortunately that's also when the glider just comes out of the cart.
Goddam right. Really gotta watch out for that instantaneous increase in the safety of the towing operation.
It is good skill if you can pull off a good landing at that time.
Think about it:
You're in the propwash, in groud effect and possibly also up several feet in the windgradient.
Let's take a look at the groud effect. Your wing flies more efficiently in groud effect and thus generates less drag / lessens towline tension. Tell me how that's an issue that should be included in your list.
Feet in the harness, sometimes VG on and some have no wheels.
But wheels or effective skids have never been considered in AT operations risk mitigation programs. Why do you think that is?
Good flying!
Really?
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
So if that miserable little cocksucker is right then how come nobody ever remarks about the excellent flying involved in staying centered behind the tug for the first fifty feet of climbout?
Davis Straub - 2006/06/17 02:32:58 UTC
The bridle may have just come undone. Don't really know if the weaklink broke or not.
So then how come you posted:
Davis Straub - 2006/06/15 12:46:29 UTC
The tug's weaklink breaks as I come off the cart.
I was the first tow of the day for this tug.
Who was the second tow and how come we didn't get a report?
Craig Williamson - 2006/06/17 04:50:39 UTC
I spoke to the tug pilot that towed you and asked him about the weeklink break he said it was not the weeklink but the tow line it had been tied and came untied this was not the tow pilots tow line and not his equipment that failed as you led me to believe in your original post /story about the incident when you said you asked for a different tug the next flight. for give me if this was not your intention and Irelise you were not aware of the cause at the time. But the tug pilot in question is very careful with his equipment and takes very good care of it the tug is one of the oldest tugs flyimg if not the oldest with the original engine. though it doesn't have the hours that many have because it is not used at a tow park
I spoke to the tug pilot...
So why aren't you NAMING the tug pilot? (Notice, people of varying ages, the way identities of tug drivers are all kept under tighter wraps than snitches in witness protection programs. (And like what do we know about the identity and/or qualifications of the driver...
KSNV-CNN-1-1916c
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5788/23461251751_e98b9c7500_o.png
2-2911
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5496/14022629055_b87e14eb3f_o.png
22-13529
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8823/17050092637_a6b3bc79a4_o.png
...in the most spectacular double fatal in the entire world history of hang gliding?) Why all this secrecy given that:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)
Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/01 03:46:29 UTC
Among ourselves, we agree (via the waiver) that we understand we're engaged in a risky sport that can cause serious injury or death. We each agree that we are personally and individually responsible for our own safety. If we have an accident and get hurt, we agree in advance that it is solely our own fault, no matter what the circumstances might be. We sign at the bottom saying that we fully understand these things, that we accept them, and that we know we are giving up the right to sue anybody if an accident happens.
Those are fundamental tenets of our sport. We are all individually responsible for ourselves and our safety. We need to see and avoid all other pilots, avoid crashing into people or property and use good judgment when flying. If someone doesn't agree with those principles, then they don't need to be involved in our sport.
...this was not the tow pilots tow line and not his equipment that failed...
Yeah it was. He was the Pilot In Command of everything back to and including the tow ring (and the glider too - if you listen to Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney). And it was his responsibility to fly in compliance with FAA aerotowing regulations - regardless of who owned that crap on the ground. And he blew it and his negligence could've gotten somebody killed in a worst case scenario. (Not to say that the dickhead who hooked that shit up shouldn't have been beaten to a bloody pulp.)
Davis Straub - 2006/06/17 12:43:23 UTC
he said it was not the weeklink but the tow line it had been tied and came untied this was not the tow pilots tow line
I don't understand the sentence above.
Really? I don't know what three point bridles and carabineers are.
I towed behind this tug later. No worries.
Yeah? Well this is what you wrote ORIGINALLY at:
http://ozreport.com/10.116
Weaklink Break
Bo was off first and I was a pilot or two behind him. Just as I came off the cart the rope detached from the tow plane (not one of the regular Dragonflys) and I was floating along one foot off the ground. It felt to me that I was in for a skidder. Then suddenly I popped up a couple of feet (prop wash?) and I could get up on the down tubes and run it in. I told them to give me any other tug, but that one.
Let's not address the problem. Let's just make sure we don't get behind him and let other flyers - possibly totally unaware of the incident - be exposed to the danger, risk getting an arm broken, gum up the launch lines a bit more.
When you have something like this happen to you, the first thing you want to avoid is it happening again, no matter what the actual or proximate cause.
Right. Avoid it happening again to YOU - with your superb flying skills, lightning fast reflexes, successful experience dealing with the situation. Fuck everybody else. Besides, the more gliders that get broken and/or injured during the comp the easier it is to get into first place.
Avoiding that tug for a while seemed prudent.
And what would've seemed prudent to a NON pigfucker would've been to identify the problem, fix it, call a short meeting to make sure people were properly clued in and alert to the issue.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC
You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.
I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.
Liar.
I wonder who was responsible for the tow line coming undone.
Still wondering. Blamed the tug driver, didn't bother to see if any Ridgely staffers shared the responsibility and that any other tugs might be problematic.
P.S. Note that none of the Ridgely staffers have engaged in the discussion three minutes and six seconds shy of two days into this discussion.
Craig Williamson - 2006/06/17 13:56:40 UTC
the tow line was provided by the tow park apparently it had been cut or broken previously and had been tied don't know who tied it
Great job...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC
See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.
...Highland Aerosports.
Davis Straub - 2006/06/17 14:24:18 UTC
Communication, what a difficult art.
[/img]
The tow line was provided by the tow park. Apparently it had been cut or broken previously and had been tied. I don't know who tied it.
I assume that you meant that the tow line had been "spliced" and that the splice had come undone.
What was stopping you from finding out at the time?
Craig Williamson - 2006/06/17 14:33:50 UTC
I would have spliced the tug pilot would have spliced he said tied not sure if he meant spliced and not sure who reconected it
How convenient.
Davis Straub - 2006/06/17 15:15:56 UTC
thanksagainshowingthedifficultyofcommunication
especiallywithoutpunctuationorcapitalization
dontmeantoberudebutiwasjusthavingahardtimefollowingwhatyouweresaying
That'sOK,Davis.LotsatimesittakesYEARStoreallyundestand...
http://ozreport.com/9.033
Why weaklinks?
Davis Straub - 2005/02/08
Competition pilots are driven to use strong links because breaking a weaklink causes them to go to the back of the line as well as the problems that come with broken weaklinks low. If we want to use weaklinks, we need to be sure that we are not penalized if our weaklink breaks.
...whatyou'resaying.
Jim Rooney - 2006/06/18 14:31:22 UTC
The tow line was two pieces of spectra spliced together. The splice didn't hold and the line seperated.
Great craftsmanship. Commensurate with your spelling proficiency.
If you're curious or unfamiliar with the types of splices used...
...you'll be welcome with open arms as a Highland Aerosports staffer.
...check out your bridal ends... the loops are formed by a splice. Normally splices involve a twisting weave to ensure the splice holds.
Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
There was question as to how much weave was used and how close of a weave, etc.
Why was that ever a question? These lines are commonly used in life-or-death applications and there's never been a shortage of detailed illustrated instructions for bulletproof application on manufacturers' websites.
They either switched out the line or knotted the line after it failed... probably both.
Maybe set fire to a bit of it. Who really knows for sure?
It was impressive to watch quick reactions have such a positive outcome... nice work Davis.
Suck my dick, you miserable little Industry scumbag.
Hang Gliding - 1975/09
The Tow Line
Harry Robb
Polyethylene or polypropylene, 12 strand, braided 3/8 inch line, 500 feet in length is used in competition. Lines for novice flyers should be about 150 feet long, and increased in length as experience is gained. According to the Kiting Handbook (Manned Kiting) by Dan Poynter, this size line has a tensile strength of 2025 pounds. Each end of the tow line is normally provided with a stainless steel screw-pin shackle with an approximate 3/16 inch shank which fits in the slot of the safety release hook. The screw pin of the shackle is inserted through a loop of the tow line at least 2 or 3 feet, providing sufficient friction to prevent disengagement. Although some flyers use only the loop of the tow line in the safety release, this practice is not recommended as it greatly accelerates the abrasion and fraying of the line. Once the line shows very many single strand breaks, its tensile strength is greatly decreased and should be discarded. No flight should ever be made with a knot in the tow line. Aside from the abrasion caused by the knot rubbing on itself, the tensile strength is decreased by as much as 50%. Lines require constant inspection - prior to the first flight of every day by every flyer. In a tournament, the Lineman Starter can inspect some portions of the line on each flight, and the Safety Inspector will inspect the entire line slowly, foot-by-foot, two or three times daily. The tow line is a life line and must be treated with utmost respect.
Look how far backwards u$hPa managed to go the forty years between that article and the extinction of Highland Aerosports at the end of the 2015 season. Decades of systematic persecution of accountability, competence, character where and when ever they reared their ugly heads.
