Among ourselves, we agree (via the waiver) that we understand we're engaged in a risky sport that can cause serious injury or death. We each agree that we are personally and individually responsible for our own safety. If we have an accident and get hurt, we agree in advance that it is solely our own fault, no matter what the circumstances might be. We sign at the bottom saying that we fully understand these things, that we accept them, and that we know we are giving up the right to sue anybody if an accident happens.
Those are fundamental tenets of our sport. We are all individually responsible for ourselves and our safety. We need to see and avoid all other pilots, avoid crashing into people or property and use good judgment when flying. If someone doesn't agree with those principles, then they don't need to be involved in our sport.
So I guess guys like...
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
Dr. Lionel D. Hewett - 1985/08
THE SKYTING CRITERIA
1. CONSTANT DIRECTION
The direction of the towing force must remain essentially constant throughout every phase of the towed flight.
2. CONSTANT TENSION
The tension in the towline must remain essentially constant throughout every phase of the towed flight.
5. GRADUAL TRANSITIONS
The transition to and from tow as well as any variations while on tow must be gradual in nature.
8. SAFE LEARNING METHOD
The system must include a method for safely learning to use it by gradually advancing from one level of experience to the next.
9. ADEQUATE POWER
The system must contain a source of power adequate to maintain a safe mode of flight while under tow.
10. CAPABLE CREW
The system must be operated by a crew which is adequate in number and competent in ability to see that it functions properly.
11. RELIABLE COMMUNICATIONS
The system must provide a means whereby the pilot can reliably communicate to the rest of the crew.
Doug Hildreth - 1991/06
Pilot with some tow experience was towing on a new glider which was a little small for him. Good launch, but at about fifty feet the glider nosed up, stalled, and the pilot released by letting go of the basetube with right hand. Glider did a wingover to the left and crashed into a field next to the tow road. Amazingly, there were minimal injuries.
Comment: This scenario has been reported numerous times. Obviously, the primary problem is the lack of pilot skill and experience in avoiding low-level, post-launch, nose-high stalls. The emphasis by countless reporters that the pilot lets go of the glider with his right hand to activate the release seems to indicate that we need a better hands-on way to release.
I know, I know, "If they would just do it right. Our current system is really okay." I'm just telling you what's going on in the real world. They are not doing it right and it's up to us to fix the problem. Think about it.
...Daniel F. Poynter, Bill Bennett, Tom Peghiny, Richard Johnson, Dr. Lionel D. Hewett, Doug Hildreth don't need to be involved in our sport.
Fulfill your childhood dream of bringing an aircraft to a dead stop on your feet in the center of a three foot diameter circle. Left hand on the control tube at shoulder or ear height for optimal pitch and roll control. Right hand touching nothing but air - the way it does when you're making the easy reach to your Industry Standard aerotow release. No problem whatsoever - pictures never lie. This is what "flying" is all about.
Fuck the Hang Gliding Spectacular. There was a period in the early Eighties in which I would've been in position to win the damned thing - IF the points were used to reward FLYING - airtime, passes, pylons - instead of minimal inches from the center of the bull's-eye.
Learned real quick - but the hard way - never to even think about compromising a landing 0.01 percent for the sake of trying to stomp some stupid Frisbee.
But if that's what floats your boat, people of varying ages, step right up. u$hPa's the organization of your dreams.
This last Saturday I did my first solo flight which was preceded by a tandem check flight around 12:30 with my instructor that was supposed to follow the solo flight plan, but I mentioned that I had never seen launch from above... Since it was active we found a thermal and I practiced sensing when I entered and exited, making adjustments to stay in it. A few minutes after launching we took a pass over launch (a first for me!) and headed back out front to practice some more thermaling. Ultimately I climbed to 4400 (launch is 3500 and I think they were expecting climbs to 4500 that day) before continuing with my solo flight plan. Nice and fun practice before my solo!
- So I guess all your Dockweiler flights were tandem.
- And your tandem instructor got to log all this as Pilot In Command on your dime. How nice for him.
- How DID we old-timers ever manage to survive our ascents to Three ratings from Day One, Flight One solo only? Note the way none of these Industry assholes has ever made any claims about how much of a safety enhancement tandem "instruction" has afforded us? They don't want anybody thinking about this issue too deeply.
The solo.
For whatever reason during the days leading up to my solo I started over thinking launching and began to become much more anxious about it than I expected, but only about the launch.
And what was your nightmare scenario?
I had taken a week off since my last lesson at the beach where I was signed off for my H2...
And what? Were all your previous flights tandem? At the beach? Thirty foot launch? A Two specifies a minimum of 25 flights and I'd assume that even the crappiest school US hang gliding has to offer would interpret that to mean SOLO. Or were all your Dockweiler straight out and upright sleds such nonevents that you don't consider them to be actual flights?
So let's take a look at the current Two flight flavor requirements under which he was supposed to have been signed off.
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2017/03/04
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
07. Novice Hang Gliding Rating (H2)
-B. Required Witnessed Tasks
01. Logged Requirements
-b. Must have logged a minimum of 25 flights with a required ability to demonstrate an appropriate landing approach.
02. Demonstrated Skills and Knowledge
-a. Demonstrates set-up and preflight of glider, harness, and reserve parachute.
-b. Gives a reliable analysis of general conditions of the site and self; and flight plan including flight path, areas to avoid in relation to the wind flow, and obstacles to stay clear of.
-c. With each flight, demonstrates method of establishing that pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
-d. Demonstrates flight with smooth variation in airspeed, from above minimum sink to fast flight, while maintaining a heading.
-e. Demonstrates flight showing ability to comfortably and precisely slow the glider to minimum sink and smoothly increase to normal airspeed while maintaining a heading. The pilot should not mush or stall the glider. These maneuvers should be practiced and observed with a minimum of 75 feet AGL in smooth conditions.
-f. While in preferred flying position, demonstrates flight(s) along a planned path alternating "S" turns of at least 90° change in heading. Flight heading need not exceed 45° from straight into wind. Turns must be smooth with controlled airspeed, ending in safe, stand-up landings on a heading.
-g. Demonstrates 180° turns in both directions, and at various speeds and bank angles.
-h. Explains how to safely execute a 360 degree turn, and describes the associated risk factors and decision making process.
-i. Demonstrates three consecutive landings that average less than 100' from a target (or optional landing task - see Addendum 1 - Optional Landing Task), safe, smooth, on feet and into the wind. The target must be sufficiently close to launch such that turns are required to set up an approach and avoid over-flying the target. The target should be at least 100' below the launch point.
-j. Demonstrates smooth entry to and exit from flying position without changes in pitch and roll.
-k. While in preferred flying position, demonstrates flight with smooth variation in airspeed, from above minimum sink to fast flight, while maintaining a heading.
-l. While in preferred flying position, demonstrates flight showing ability to comfortably and precisely slow the glider to minimum sink and smoothly increase airspeed to normal while maintaining a heading. The pilot should not mush or stall the glider. These maneuvers should be practiced and observed with a minimum of 75 feet AGL in smooth conditions.
so even if you're soaring the thirty foot bump there's no way to stay in compliance and complete the requirements. So if Nate's completed the requirements the more demanding and important flying ones have been done tandem at Kagel.
...and was starting to think too much time had gone by and I would already lose my skills.
How much skill is involved in running a glider off a steepish rounded knoll in smooth late afternoon air?
After setting up the tandem glider earlier in the day I had already forgotten all my worries and easily launched in a 15mph wind.
Pretty hard NOT to easily launch in a 15mph wind.
Breaking down the steps, doing the current step, and thinking through the next one really makes each part a non-issue.
- Good thing it wasn't an aerotow launch in which your skills will inevitably fail you. Always and only of course at a moment at which only a long track record Rooney Link will be able to save you. (Since, of course, this moment at which your skills will fail you will always coincide with the moment your tug pilot's skills will fail him.)
- So any thoughts on why Grebloville pilots from a virtually unlimited skills, rating, experience range are launching...
(That's both of your flying sites by the way.) But just keep using the same Grebloville procedures they and everyone else in that neck of the woods do. You're bound to get better results.
We got to the top of the mountain around 3:30 and set up. I got on the side wires and assisted other pilots launch.
Really? So why do you think your driver / wire guy for this flight got on the nose wires to assist you? Until you reached the point at which it became possible for you to actually NEED assistance anyway.
My instructor, an H2 with a few solos under his belt...
Astounding. A Two with a few "solos" under his belt...
Kagel Mountain Launch - (Saddle and Main Ramp) Intermediate or higher rating is required. Novice pilots may fly under the direct supervision of, or if signed off by an SHGA designated instructor. Proof of sign-off must be carried by the pilot. Sign-off may be revoked at the discretion of the Association.
...now qualifies as an instructor qualified to OK and supervise a Two without a few solos under his belt at a 2K+ inland mountain soaring site. Also qualifies to sign off a Two without a few solos under his belt as an effective Kagel Three who can fly unsupervised at this Three site in whatever conditions he feels like.
And it's pretty fucking obvious at this point that a flight is only perceived by the student as a flight if he does something more than what a clipped in sack of potatoes would have in the same circumstances.
So now, people of varying ages, we know what an official Windsports Certified Flight Instructor for a 2K+ inland mountain soaring site is. So then what's an official Windsports Certified Flight Instructor for a goddam thirty foot beach dune? If you do the arithmetic it's some asshole who just walked in from the street and has learned that the pointy end is supposed to face the ocean at the beginning and end of the flight.
And just how much more demanding than Kagel is Yosemite? Somebody tell me why it's safe for a new Two with zero high flights under his belt to authorize, supervise an afternoon thermal conditions flight at Kagel but not a morning sled at Yosemite.
At Yosemite I can name you two serious crashes - a launch and a landing. At Kagel offhand I can name you an unhooked launch, a fatal thermalling tumble, two fatal stunt landing attempts, and a stunt landing arm snapped in half. So where do we think we should be concentrating our regulation efforts?
Note that the "instructor" supervising Nate's solo can't be the same guy with whom he took the tandem 'cause a tandem guy has gotta be a Four.
Note also the conspicuous total absence of named individuals beyond the author himself - even when nothing bad has happened (yet). And this was most assuredly not the case in the first couple decades of the sport. Obviously some kind of really powerful and effective but really subtle indoctrination going on. As late as 2005/01/09 when Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey towed Robin Strid to his death on Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey's shit Industry Standard equipment at a comp we knew who the tug driver was - instantly. But 2016/05/21 when Jeff Bohl gets towed to his death at Quest on Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey's shit Industry Standard equipment at a comp in front of scores of witnesses... A year plus four months later and we don't have the slightest fucking clue who the driver was. We don't even have a partial list of candidates.
...the driver, and I waited around till the winds calmed to around 7-8mph. My instructor...
...launched and went straight to the landing field where he provided instruction over radio to the other H2 (who launched without clearance, so forgetful that guy!)
That's OK. The whole monopolized system's a useless pretentious joke anyway. As far as I'm concerned things would work much better if u$hPa sanctioned instruction and rating requirements were totally scrapped and individuals learned using resources of their own discretion.
After he landed I got the instruction to prepare to launch, I moved my glider over, did my hang check...
While the answer Larry Heidler would've given at the Crestline launch on 2016/06/29 if anyone had been around would've reflected the requisite degree of confidence. Likewise with Trey Higgins at Slide on 2015/06/26 and Jeff Bohl on 2016/05/21 at Quest. My take is that "I think so" is a much better response. It's at the very least an indication that some degree of thinking is occurring.
...but I told him that to be sure I'd actually have to get on launch to tell.
At which point you'll be confident that you're hooked in and otherwise totally good to go.
On launch I checked in with my instructor...
And your babysitter.
...got cleared for launch and did a hook in check.
Really? I don't clear anyone for launch until AFTER I see - or, if it's me I'm clearing, feel - the hook-in check.
I picked up the glider...
So how do you do a hook-in check BEFORE you pick up the glider?
...with the driver on the nose wires and it yawed over to the right something like 30 degrees from my course line.
Shouldn't your course line have been straight into the wind at that launch?
For some reason I thought "no my first solo flight should have a straight take off" so I moved it back to center but balancing the wing brought the nose back over to the right. Everything was smooth and balanced. "My first solo flight is going to be a crosswind takeoff" I said "clear" and my assistant moved out of the way...
- I think it would've been a good idea for you to have been worried.
- Funny, I'm always worried about my hook-in status until it's too late to do anything about it.
- Of course you weren't worried. If you'd been worried you'd have had your launch assistant on a sidewire where he could've helped you out if anything had started going awry. Gotta admire your self confidence.
- Punctuation needs work.
I cleared the terrain and turned towards my next target.
That first turn was probably a little strong and I hit some rising air (it's there waiting for me every tandem) which rolled me a little further (maybe, it was probably all me).
I went to trim and checked my airspeed (first time it was ever attached).
- How DID you ever manage to get along without it?
- Funny, you only mention checking your airspeed at that instant. So what were you doing the rest of the time - 'specially during the more critical phases? Flying by feel maybe?
On course to my target it struck me how much easier it was to handle my glider than that tandem beast.
- And the asshole hooked in with you.
- Confirmation that virtually all of his Two flying requirements have been demonstrated and signed off tandem at Kagel. Yech.
- How 'bout when you went prone from 04:06 to 06:05?
Did you notice any effect regarding ease of handling? I'm guessing it compromised you 'cause you only flew prone in the middle of the flight when you had max separation from the critical / dangerous / close to terrain stuff. That's kinda funny 'cause the designer of that particular aircraft says that he can't control it with his hands on the downtubes and will stay prone and belly in for a dangerous landing situation. But then again he probably never got the benefit of the excellent instruction you've had.
More than anything I was amazed by how calm and peaceful this is, simply amazing.
...see that the wind is only slightly cross, no big deal.
The wind is only SUBSTANTIALLY cross, about 45 degrees; fairly strong, strong enough to give you major problems when you point your glider and attempt to move it towards the breakdown area, I'd say ten easy; and smooth as glass. Would've made a foot landing a no brainer if you'd pointed into it.
With each turn I drift a little downwind, that's something I have to work on. I signal to my instructor by waving my legs...
...and drift a little to the inside and get a little PIO. My instructor warned me that the falcon 3's have that tendency, something else for me to work on.
Yeah, those Falcon Threes are real bitches when it comes to PIO. You should probably be looking into one of those other entry level gliders that doesn't have a PIO tendency.
Right. You FLARED - when your anonymous idiot excuse for an instructor yelled "OUT HARD!" - the entire two and a half inches of available positive control bar pitch range...
...(I had actually practiced this maneuver at the beach).
- Yeah. That was a MANEUVER. The ONLY one you practiced at the beach. Perish the thoughts that you might have been better served practicing flying prone as your glider was certified to be and working on actual turns and controlled landings.
Stick with these guys, they'll get you squared away right. And make sure you never learn the truth about the two Grebloville/Sylmar landing fatalities. (Hold that flare. Nothing bad can happen to you as long as you hold the flare.)
- So the ONLY input he gave you that had any bearing on your flight, decisions, performance was CRAP which further compromised the most critical and dangerous phase and caused you to mildly pancake in, right Nathan? I sure hope you thanked him appropriately, gave him a generous tip, and took him out to dinner.
The pilot who I helped with the assembly of his ATOS hours earlier walks over and recounts my whole flight from his perspective.
Well, I guess he found all aspects totally excellent - otherwise you'd be telling us what he said. Or maybe you're not telling us anything about what he said for political reasons.
After a few phone calls everything sinks in and I find my instructor. "Why the hell am I on the ground?!"
Because of all the really excellent tandem instruction you had leading up to and during your first solo.
A little about my training.
I'm learning with Windsports in southern California.
Big fuckin' surprise.
There are no small hills to use...
...and this is California and California has never heard of towing...
...so training takes place in two locations. The training hills are actually a...
...the...
...dune on the beach near LAX, you thought walking back up your nice green hills was hard, ugg, try sand!
Well, as long as you're getting everything you can out of it...
I lost some weight and didn't have to go do squats at the gym and I'm still dumping sand out of my shoes. The other location is the 3500 foot Kagel Mountain in Sylmar.
It's not 3500 feet over the LZ - which is the vertical figure that actually matters.
It varies by student but it took me 5 lessons at the beach to earn my H1.
How sure are you that you actually earned it?
Then off to the mountain to do tandem flights to work on turns, flight speeds, and landing approaches.
- Dockweiler is a soarable site.
13-094108
15-101816
01-001502
What's stopping you from working on turns and speeds at that resource? Besides Windsports I mean?
- Landing approaches? DBF? Downwind doesn't mean doing a bunch of crap downwind of the field, runway, LZ to kill excess altitude. Downwind means starting upwind of and off center from the runway and fairly low then flying downwind to check out the runway situation and assess groundspeed and track and adjust glide slope as necessary. Base is flying crosswind to line up with the runway. Final, lined up with the runway and into the wind as much as possible and adjust glide slope to arrive at or reasonably close to the near/downwind end of the runway. What you're doing isn't much of an approach and it will tend to get you fucked over if you ever find yourself in a tightish landing situation - à la 2017/06/10, McConnellsburg bailout, Tev Carrillo for a recent consequential example.
This took 4 tandem flights.
I remember a time when getting a Two took zero tandem flights and everything could be done on the dunes.
Then back to the beach to work on launches and landings and other H2 skills.
Maybe even flying prone with your hands on the control bar and turning. Just kidding. It's well under two hundred feet so don't even THINK about flying prone, let alone working on turns.
This took me another 7 lessons to get my H2. Then to graduate here it takes about 8 solo flight lessons over the radio.
Really? It only needs a Two with a few solos under his belt to be the guy who GIVES the solo flight lessons over the radio.
Which I am working on now.
I'll be back at it this weekend!
Great! And make sure to keep carefully following the radio guidance from your "instructor". You'll be fine.
The flight duration is 7:20, prone time is a second under two minutes or 27 percent of launch to pancake. So both of these shots are misrepresentations of what's mostly going on and there's a really conspicuous absence of any mention of going prone in the recounting - really conspicuous in light of all detailed descriptions of every other trivial event in this first high (radio controlled) solo.
So obviously what he wants us to see and himself to remember of this flight was a middle quarter of it when he was actually piloting his glider as it should and is designed to be piloted.
Isn't it remarkable that in a highly testosterone poisoned sport such as hang gliding there's never once been a documented instance of hazing at any school, club, flying site, tow operation, fly-in, competition? Nobody's ever been killed, injured, harmed, arrested, charged, sued, sanctioned, reprimanded, cautioned. Obviously 'cause of the stellar characters of all participants in purest of all flying disciplines.
The whole pile o' crap is nothing but institutionalized hazing and whatever other abuse can be mustered and/or concocted.
We can establish rules which we think will improve pilot safety, but our attorney is right. USHPA is not in the business of keeping pilots "safe" and it can't be.
Once you start down that path - and u$hPa started down that path virtually at the beginning of time - it's inevitable the top ranks will be totally filled with the most vile sociopaths society has to offer. And those at the top and in control will do everything they can to make things as miserable as possible for an aspiring pilot like this Grebloville victim to go up anywhere in the ranks.
Wanna fly:
- Torrey, Yosemite? Get back to me after you've demonstrated that you can pull off consistent no-steppers within under a wingspan of the old Frisbee in the middle of the LZ.
- an aerotow weak link that doesn't blow up in your face five feet off the cart in light morning conditions. Not until after you've been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who. Don't like it? Go to the tow park Tad runs - motherfucker. Keep making a stink about it? That'll be your only option.
Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney was pretty much textbook - 'cept he was so off the scale arrogant and stupid that he started believing his own bullshit and couldn't figure out when he needed to keep his mouth shut. And Newtonian physics finally caught up with him and defined limits for his more moderate sociopath colleagues.
And we're never gonna change any of this or live long enough to see it changed - for the better - to any measurable extent. You need badges, guns, prisons to make that work.
One more point that may not have been made before on this vile upright flying bullshit. (Better part of 22 hundred foot vertical on this one - at a site that's supposed to be a Three.) Justification: Someday you will inevitably miss the primary but, of course, will always at that point have the option of landing in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place. (But nothing else. Not a small patch of open ground onto which you'll be able to safely belly in. Just a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place which will require a precision spot no-stepper.)
Nobody teaches, requires, practices actual Restricted Landing Field approaches because hard ninety turns below two hundred feet virtually always result in fatal impacts while a precision spot no-steppers in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place is something any solid Two can pull off in his sleep. And the air in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place is always glassy smooth. Never any rotors, switches, thermals, strong gradients. Never anything in which it would be the least bit advantageous to be prone with both hands on the control bar for an instant or two.
But we've all gotta spend three weekends a month working on perfecting our flare timing to be able to have a fair shot at pulling off a crisp no stepper somewhere in the vicinity of the old Frisbee in the middle of the Happy Acres putting green primary in normal recreational flying conditions on the remaining weekend.
The person who LACKS the skill and judgment to get his glider down in the Hyner, Lockout, Sylmar primary is gonna then HAVE and/or DEVELOP the skill and judgment to pull off a precision spot no-steppers in the turbulent narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place? Oh, you missed the fifty acre meticulously groomed primary? No problem, just centerpunch that fifty foot stretch of rocky ditch over there on the lee side of the treeline - the way you've always practiced for. You'll be fine.
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. We don't trust our training of you to hit the fifty acre primary so that's why we're putting 98 percent of our training time and effort into you being able to consistently nail a no stepper within ten feet of a designated old Frisbee. And it would be totally insane to consider any option in between. (And never mind that we ourselves are unable to pull off what we're training you to do.)
---
2017/09/21 13:45:00 UTC
Heck of flight! That's a big time mountain site with mid-summer air...
Fuck yeah! Mid-summer air! Good thing he had the presence of mind to stay upright on the control tubes for almost all of the flight. Ya never know when you're gonna need the extra control authority that affords you. What a tragedy it is that Markus Schaedler insisted on flying prone all the time at that site until finally getting terminally bit. (Can't imagine why none of his Grebloville buddies ever made the slightest effort to get through to him - or ever even brought up the issue after the fact.)
...plus your crosswind launch technique is quite a skilled maneuver.
Kinda like nailing the old Frisbee in the middle of the LZ, landing in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place, snatching a goodie bag off a traffic cone while skimming two feet off the deck through the finish line at seventy. Keep up the great work. The more pilots we have executing quite skilled maneuvers on and/or close to the surface the better off the sport will be.
Where's the skill, challenge, fun, sense of adventure in something like that?
And you certainly need to be congratulated for taking the simple, virtually no-skill option of starting from back and to the right, accelerating on the plateau running into the wind, leaving the slope trim and level.
Jim Gaar - 2017/08/09 14:08:09 UTC
DAMN...sweet launch and way to stay on the DTs until you were comfy.
And it sure took a lot of guts to go prone for those two minutes after he'd gotten comfy after launch and before he got uncomfy again prior to landing.
Those 360s were great before you set down. Background applause well deserved!
Suck my dick, Rodie.
Lemme tell ya sumpin', Nathan. Getting compliments from this lying, incompetent son of bitch parasite who doesn't fly, has never really flown, gets his rocks off by hanging out on douchebag forums pretending to be a wise old guru by going along with all current popular sentiments is something you wanna avoid like the plague.
kukailimoku2 - 2017/08/09 17:49:41 UTC
+1 on the launch, great technique and done with power and confidence. Nice work
And BEAUTIFUL upright flying almost all the way down. Bummer about that unfortunate prone lapse about halfway through. But, hell, nobody's perfect.
Doug Marley - 2017/08/09 18:03:52 UTC
Congrats on your first solo!
Yeah that was his very first solo. Never been clipped into a glider alone before.
Nice flight! You'll be soaring solo in short order.
Might even be able to learn to fly prone for longer periods eventually - the way he was doing during his entire tandem thermal soaring flight about four hours before this one.
By the way, Nathan... You're getting all these great compliments on your excellent crosswind launching skills as demonstrated so beautifully in this video. This obviously wasn't something you just freestyled on the fly - a skill is only attained through competent instruction and considerable practice. So aren't you even gonna credit and thank Windsports for the excellent crosswind launch instruction and practice sessions? Show us a couple of video clips, give a few pointers to the less skilled amongst us highly likely to fuck up and pay a substantial price?
Or is the reason you're not even responding to any of the posts here is because you know that this:
was not a really good situation to have been in and one that you shouldn't have been in and can't afford to be in much in the future?
And if you think this was OK then show me one other video clip from the Kagel launch or anything the slightest bit comparable from an old pro or anyone else who feels that his launch was acceptable, a demonstration of superior skill.
And hey Jack Show dickheads... Apparently flying prone has become a Three level special skill - infinitely more demanding than the strong crosswind foot launch and 360s for which you're all oozing so much praise. So how come none of you are congratulating him for that two minute performance and encouraging him for more such efforts in the future?
Do a Google Images search for "hang gliding". You will find ZERO images that look like THIS:
You will find thousands of beautiful shots of hang gliders being flown the way hang gliders are intended, designed, certified to be, and are actually BEING flown.
And you will say, "Wow, that's so awesome! I gotta give that a try!" and quickly find an image that connects you to Windsports, Mission, Lockout, Fly High and immediately find yourself locked into...
...hazing, degradation configuration - the ugly stuff The Industry doesn't want anybody to see until after it's gotten its hands on the credit card.
Somebody find me another sport, discipline in which the instruction, training doesn't start off on Day One, Flight One working on getting the student, candidate to look, perform, equip to the greatest extent possible like the pros.
Also show me one clip of any halfway competent hang glider pilot going from prone to upright in any demanding and/or hazardous situation - that doesn't involve some insane landing surface which demands the glider being whipstalled to a dead stop - because of some advantage the configuration affords.
Once ANY student properly escapes from the grip of the hazing phase he's prone and on the basetube for life. (And Joe Julik is a great example of someone who never properly recovered from the hazing phase.)
P.S. If you didn't catch the edit note at the end of the previous post note that it's been amended with a series of 47 stills from the video.
...was not a really good situation to have been in and one that you shouldn't have been in and can't afford to be in much in the future?
That cross wind launch did not look like much of big deal to me. Don't you think that it is a good thing to be able to launch with a cross wind like that?
is the situation in which you want and NEED somebody on the nose. And I can't imagine a situation at Kagel or any other Grebloville site in which you'd want somebody on the nose instead of on a wing. Actually I can't imagine any Greblo launch situation in which you'd want somebody on your nose instead of fifteen feet behind you looking at your harness connection. (They'd get a lot more bang for their buck that way - seeing as how they've only got one individual who doesn't think that a hook-in check drastically increases your probability of launching unhooked.)
Good job. Now that you've safetied Nathan from getting nosed up and flipped onto his back as long as possible duck out and clear as quickly as possible. Just plain STUPID.
If ya wanna be of some possible USE get on his port/upwind sidewire and run with him until he's safely off. An old dune instructor is psychologically and physically incapable of NOT doing that. I've been on crew on ramps in which doing that will result in my instant death and my instinct is STILL to run with him until he's safely airborne.
And there are four responses to his post and all of them compliment him on the skill/execution of the launch.
- What skill? Running a bit sideways and keeping the glider reasonably level?
- We don't wanna be executing critical flight phases - launch, approach, landing - with skill as an important factor. Basic competence and judgment yes. Skill no.
Gymnastics routines require skill. And they fail all the fuckin' time and injuries are common. And when we watch the most skilled couple dozen gymnasts on the planet we see substantial failures all the fuckin' time, are thrilled when we see a performance in which there are only one or two minor failures, expect to see injuries that knock these world class elite athletes out of the competition in an environment padded to the hilt and with no large rocks strewn all over the place.
So if Nathan is actually performing a launch that requires skill he should be criticized - not complimented - for it.
Like just imagine if someone at Nathan's level were to show up at the head of the launch line with a Tad-O-Link.
Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition. Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.
Strictly for the best of the best, people who've been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.
This is my 3rd solo flight off of Kagel in Sylmar, Ca. This also ended up being my first soaring flight, lasting 49 minutes without my feet touching the ground!
00:00 - 3rd solo - 1st soaring flight. - Kagel Mtn. Sylmar, Ca. - Flight time: 49mins
01:03 - Not much experience prone, first several passes are kinda sloppy
01:51 - Come back ridge! I need you!
03:30 - LIFT!
07:20 - My launch buddy is in the air ahead.
08:22 - MCA (pushing out while turning to stall).
09:16 - Whoo!
10:46 - 14:30mins of ridge soaring. - Time to go do some 360s
11:49 - This is how I let my instructor know that I'm having fun.
13:23 - Got some air! - Time to go back and do some right turns.
15:13 - Got dumped out of that.
16:24 - Going up!
17:36 - At this point I realize I'm really enjoying this.
17:52 - This is my limit for now.
18:52 - Left turns go up, right turns go down.
19:04 - I figured out later that I push out unevenly on right 360s.
21:33 - I noticed the bright spot where my shadow should be.
22:37 - This is fun!
24:53 - Working on transitions
26:32 - Too low, time to go.
26:37 - I spent about 28mins thermaling!
26:56 - Attempt at an upright dive, only 28. Failed.
27:37 - Staging for landing.
29:16 - Some words of encouragement from the good pilots
Saturday 8/19 I went out for my 3rd solo flight and it ended up being my first soaring flight, lasting 49 minutes from foot up to foot down with a pretty good landing. Launch was about 5pm in "moderate turbulence" with wind speeds in low and high cycles from 11-13 to 15-17. I timed and chose the lighter cycle to launch in.
How come you didn't practice your crosswind launch skill by running off the slope at an angle? You practice your narrow-dry-riverbed-with-large-rocks-strewn-all-over-the-place landing on the beach and in the Sylmar Happy Acres putting green at an astronomically increased risk of damage and injury. So what's the point of doing the other end of the flight as safely as circumstances allow?
I haven't done much flying prone...
No shit. No Grebloville product ever has.
...(it was my choice to go prone)...
Amazing the Windsports staff permitted it.
...so when I got to the ridge I had crappy flying that I smoothed out over many passes.
Yeah, must be a real bitch when you suddenly find yourself in a configuration which allows you to control your aircraft after all that experience with your aircraft controlling you.
After a few minutes Tom, who assisted me with launch, joined me in the air while giving me plenty of breathing room.
And finally we have a partial name - though of course not of a Windsports staffer.
Sharing the sky with him added enjoyment to flight and gave me a chance to work on staying aware of where he was and being sure I checked my turns. (In all honesty I knew where he was about 50% percent of the time, he left the area a few times).
And the way things work out with these birds the time when you can't see the other glider is likely to be the time when the other glider can see you - and vice versa. And also, he's above you most of the time, so...
Passing each other and making eye contact at one point was a fun experience. After 14 and a half minutes of ridge soaring I managed not only to stay up but gain a little bit of altitude. The technical work and focus it took to do this was very satisfying.
Next step was to head down to the landmark they call the volcano to work on some 360s. I started with left 360s and managed to catch some lift and took it up to about level with launch (about 3,500 feet) before I drifted to my boundaries. I went back down a bit to work on right 360s, I gained very little and then got dumped. Generally I went up on left turns and down on right turns, I realized later in my flight that during right 360s I was pushing out unevenly, almost entirely with my right hand.
And here I was thinking that your Two instruction and requirements were supposed to cover properly coordinated turns in both directions.
I thermaled up to or above launch several times, I'm guessing the climbs were a little over 1,000 feet, the other pilot...
Tom. You've already given us his name, remember?
...suspected I got up to 3.8-3.9k. I don't have a vario...
You need to have a vario.
...so I don't really know. Near the top of one of these climbs I started laughing because I suddenly realized how freaking enjoyable this is!
- Yep. Slipping the surly bonds of Windsports.
- Got news for ya, Nate. All stages of advancement in hang gliding are SUPPOSED to be FUN. The reason that was a new and abrupt feeling for you is that you hadn't had any training geared for advancing you as a pilot. It's only when you allow yourself to be your instructor...
I also noticed that bright spot that shows up around your shadow... except the shadow was hardly visible.
Glory, anticorona, pilot's bow.
I pointed this out to myself on camera.
As I'm sure the story usually goes, eventually I got low and had to head to the LZ.
You can pretty substantially delay that process with a vario.
I spent about 28 minutes thermaling. On the way to the LZ I transitioned to upright...
Why? Were you expecting to hafta land in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place?
...and attempted an upright dive.
Well sure. How else do you expect to have your UD Special Skill signed off?
I failed, only reaching 28mph, but nailed it the next day.
Great! But really, why would anyone ever need to go any faster than 28 on a landing approach anyway? (Any thoughts on the Joe Julik fatality?)
Wanna see another example of a "pilot" unable to dive his glider much faster than 28?
Ever read your Owner's Manual? Vne is 48. Let's call stall 18. Ever consider the implications of having only the bottom third of your certified speed range available to you?
I went to staging, circled down and did my DBF approach rounding out to a nice and gentle 4 step moonwalking landing with a little flare (best landing yet). That felt really good.
I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.
That good?
My...
...still anonymous...
...instructor congratulated me saying that was the best student flight he had seen in a long time.
Meaning you've overcome a lot of what Windsports had been teaching you.
I was pleased and surprised that it lasted more than 45 minutes. I remember being on the ridge getting tired, hungry and thirsty... but it all went away at some point.
As I was moving my glider into the shade I got some words of encouragement from the other pilots: "You suck Nathan!"
The next day I did another flight but didn't launch until after 6 because the winds were unpredictable (to me) gusting to 22...
Wow! Just six under UD! That would certainly give one pause.
...I launched in 10mph. Unfortunately I didn't find much lift...
Big surprise.
...and only got a 10 minute flight but had another good landing and the flight was still very enjoyable.
Dontchya just love sled runs ending in good landings.
It's late Monday night right now and this flight still has me feeling good. I think I might like this hang gliding thing!
Wait until ya get to know the controllers of this sport and their enablers a little better.
Red Howard - 2017/08/23 00:36:23 UTC
Nate,
Sounds good, man! Now all the work starts to pay off for you. Fly high, fly long!
It's always a good idea to talk with other fliers there after you land, and get their take on the day and conditions.
And learn why you should ignore the hook-in check requirement for your rating and the preflight procedure in your owner's manual.
How high is Kagel? MSL? Launch to LZ?
You're incapable of using Google Earth?
Nate Hallahan - 2017/08/23 03:31:24 UTC
Hi Red,
Howard. Took us freakin' forever to get that nailed down and he doesn't want it known.
Kagel is 3,540 MSL. The distance from launch to the LZ is about 1.6 miles with the LZ at 1,365 MSL, giving a glide ratio of about 4:1 and the LZ is in direct line of sight from launch.
When tearing down my glider I ask anyone nearby how their flight and their landing went, which always ends up with a conversation about the conditions.
And never a conversation about why they're attempting the landing they always do.
I've read through your website before and I did make use of some of your free tools during this flight. Since my task were to circle and hold bank angles I didn't map out any thermals but later on I did start making adjustments to try to take advantage of the stronger lift.
Get a fuckin' vario.
Red Howard - 2017/08/23 04:49:22 UTC
Is that knee-hanger harness yours?
Nate Hallahan - 2017/08/23 05:30:40 UTC
Yes sir, do you have a suggestion?
Yeah, lose the knee hangers and convert it into a stirrup.
Red Howard - 2017/08/23 14:26:54 UTC
Actually, what you have there is rigged fairly well. You can tune it up a bit, if you want, for comfort on longer flights. Most HG pilots have a poor opinion of knee hangers, but that usually comes from improper rigging, not a real problem.
Naw, the REAL problem is that when you bend forward at the waist it pulls your feet off the ground. You can manage that by not bending forward at the waist but why would you want to with a stirrup as an option?
They can be fine, and yours looks about right. For comfort, you may wish to add a foot stirrup, but this is for comfort only, not anything to obsess about, especially after launch.
And all hang gliding is concerned about is foot launches and landings.
You certainly know, you do not need the stirrup to fly well.
Or, obviously, being prone with your hands on the control bar.
Anyway, hang in the shop for any harness tweaking; everything you will need to know is on my web page.
Along with some crap you wanna avoid like the plague.
Questions are welcome, of course.
Just don't expect any answers if you question any mainstream stuff.
Watch the video again, and notice the times when your head goes to one side, and the feet go to the opposite side. This is called "cross-controlling" around here, and it's a fairly common glitch.
Fuck that, Red.
- If you watch ANYONE flying for a while there will be times when he'll be pivoted under his suspension point to some extent. It can be at a point when he's intending to fly straight or initiate or maintain a turn and doesn't have shit to do with his understanding of and effectiveness in turning a glider. And natural selection will very quickly take care of anybody who launches off Kagel minus the brains to have sufficiently overcome any previous crap training in the turn department.
- If something were ACTUAL "cross-controlling" the aircraft would go right when the pilot intended to go left. Lotsa new students will do that 'cause turning a hang glider is a bit counterintuitive - your body's pointing right when you intend to turn left. I did that myself on probably my seventh ever hang glider flight with rather spectacular results in the soft sand. But it's a mistake one tends to only make ONCE.
- The fact that it's called "cross-controlling" around HERE points to a major glitch with HERE. This is supported by tow tension being referred to as "pressure", one point aerotowing being referred to as "pro towing" around HERE.
- Show me a two second clip in which Nathan's not making the glider go where he wants it to.
- Where the fuck were you when Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight was telling everyone around HERE that you can roll a glider to the left hands free by running and thus weight shifting to the left - but that the action was impossible to capture on video?
It weakens your turn authority, by a lot. The cure is simple, "lead with the feet" for all turns. To turn right, put your feet to the right first, keep them there, and bring your head and shoulders to the right also.
Eighteen days before he had the benefit of your ever so sage advice?
This will be a far stronger turn control move. For gentle turns, you may not need to move your head much, because your feet will do most of the turn command. As an instructor, I can tell you that it shows me a lack of HG Simulator time (also on my web page), before lessons. Sometimes, I tell ya, a guy can't GIVE it away.
And when we see him properly turning after he received your sage advice just as he was before it'll be all thanks to you.
Cheers,
Red
Get fucked.
Nate Hallahan - 2017/08/23 15:59:54 UTC
I've found prone to be fairly comfy, in this flight I spent a some time arching my back but learned that while relaxing the harness supports me pretty well and in a good position when moving around.
But make sure to spend as much time as possible at the critical points upright because of all the extra control authority that gives you.
At this stage I'll hold off on adding a stirrup just for the sake of avoiding complications.
Wanna avoid complications? Amend a stirrup and lose the hangers. Also get rid of that stupid backup loop.
Watch the video again...
You're absolutely right!
Yeah, when has Red ever NOT been absolutely right on anything.
The primary reason I record these flights is to analyze and look for things that can be improved.
Get a vario, start doing hook-in checks, further minimize upright time, land on your wheels.
There's so many things you won't notice or remember during the flight.
'Specially the ones that aren't actually happening.
At this point I hadn't flown prone for more than a sled run.
And didn't Windsports do a really great job of preparing you for the way gliders are intended to be flown and people actually fly them.
The next day's flight my turns were tightened up a bit better, but I see that it still happens, just not as much. I'll be making a conscious effort to improve that for my next flight!
If something ain't really broke...
As an instructor, I can tell you that it shows me a lack of HG Simulator time...
You called it. What they have here is a static control frame rigged to a beam on their gazebo, which is a good place to check adjustments but not great for simulation. One guy had a simulator in his garage nearby for parachute training but that's no longer available.
But still, you'll get so much more out of simulator time than you will out of actual flight time.
Thanks for the advice Red! I'll take all the help I can get!
No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.
...any help worth getting will be from Jack's Living Room.
who won't every experience it. (From one of your spin-off operations.)
...so be proud and feel fortunate!
Fortunate you've survived your Grebloville indoctrination up to this point.
Now I'm afraid I guess I get to be the wet-blanket on this stoke party...
- A wet blanket AND an incompetent Industry asshole? Bummer.
- How come, Ryan? If wet-blanketing regarding this flight is legitimately called for why is it you and you alone who has to deliver it? If that's the situation aren't you saying that the entire u$hPa system is majorly fucked up? And how come none of the products of you and/or your father are stepping up to the plate?
It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.
During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?
Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release
See?
...and the thoughts that follow are meant to HELP you enjoy this activity for a long, long lifetime.
- Like Ryan has ever had any actual thoughts.
- Since obviously you have had no competent instruction from your u$hPa certified Grebloville guys.
I'm not sure if it is your decision making, or your instructors... but reading your report there were some red flags for me, regarding safety and your progression.
- Yeah Ryan? Did you have any red flags for Jon Orders, Joe Julik, Zack Marzec, Kelly Harrison, Jeff Bohl? Or at least the kinds of dangerous shit they were doing?
- Just for you, Ryan?
I went out for my 3rd solo flight and it ended up being my first soaring flight, lasting 49 minutes from foot up to foot down with a pretty good landing. Launch was about 5pm in "moderate turbulence" with wind speeds in low and high cycles from 11-13 to 15-17. I timed and chose the lighter cycle to launch in.
I haven't done much flying prone (it was my choice to go prone) so when I got to the ridge I had crappy flying that I smoothed out over many passes.
My instructor congratulated me saying that was the best student flight he had seen in a long time.
Safety in hang gliding- or anything for that matter- is mostly about statistics and odds.
Nothing, of course, about a solid foundation in solid aeronautical theory - since hang gliding is all based on current popular opinions.
Flying always is a risk, but when that risk is minimized where possible, and actively managed when unavoidable, the reward of experiencing flight can be well-worth the risk. The level of risk is also hugely variable, for every pilot and on every day.
Catch that, people of varying ages?
Flying always is a risk, but when that risk is minimized where possible, and actively managed when unavoidable, the reward of experiencing flight can be well-worth the risk. The level of risk is also hugely variable, for every pilot and on every day.
This is gonna be pure unadulterated u$hPa approved RISK MANAGEMENT bullshit. Talk about your red flags. I'd wager the sport of hang gliding never once heard anything about risk management until after Tim Herr explained to u$hPa how and why it couldn't and shouldn't be in the SAFETY business.
Your story reads a bit like a seen-it-too-many-times-before accident report.
How the fuck would you know? Any accident report that comes into actual existence goes to Tim Herr who immediately shreds it.
Nick Wilson - 2017/08/13 - Locksley Airfield, Victoria
Mark Henline - 2017/09/04 - Lookout Golden
We don't know SHIT about either of those. All we know about them is that there are people who know about them who won't tell anybody SHIT.
And these motherfuckers will suppress even the fact that somebody's died if they get half a chance. Think Pat Denevan / Nancy Tachibana.
And since hang gliding has always been run by self regulating national monopolies things were suspect from the beginning of time and have only gotten steadily worse over the decades.
Inexperienced pilot on 3rd mountain solo launches into active conditions. Pilot had even less experience flying prone, yet went prone after launching. If that story ended with "pilot lost control and impacted hillside" would people be surprised by that conclusion, or would they have kind of a well-what-did-you-expect sort of reaction?
Being that John was still very new to flying in the prone position, I believe that he was likely not shifting his weight, but simply turning his body in the direction he wanted to turn.
Ryan? That is THE CLASSIC textbook fatality of a victim who was never taught how to roll control or otherwise competently fly a glider fatally slamming back into the slope. And, strangely, there seems to be zero record of Ryan participating in any remedial action or discussion.
Got that, Nathan? The safety solution to not flying a glider in a configuration in which it can be controlled is to keep flying it in a configuration in which it cannot be controlled. Gotta be very conservative in this sport, always err on the side of safety.
Luckily it sounds like things turned out ok- well even-
Yeah, he just totally lucked out on this one. For the better part of an hour. And cross-controlling most of the time. Totally amazing.
..."pilot lost control and impacted hillside"...
Do we see the SLIGHTEST indication of any loss of control in this near half hour video in this "moderate turbulence" and dangerous prone flying, motherfucker?
P.S. How come you're not saying anything about the cross-controlling Red so clearly identified? 'Cause it's total bullshit? And we know it is 'cause if it weren't you would've jumped all over it. So then if you're legitimately concerned about safety how come you're not making it clear to everybody that Red's full o' shit? Doesn't fall within the purview of risk management?
...but unluckily this can be one of the most dangerous aspects of all in aviation!
What does hang gliding have to do with aviation?
The old saying that aviation is unforgiving is a LIE...
If you teach them how to pull the glider with the harness they'll learn to steer the glider through weight shift simply by running toward their target.
As with many changes in avaition, change is approached with a bit of skepticism. Rightfully so. There's something to be said for "tried and true" methods... by strapping on somehting new, you become a test pilot. The unknown and unforseen become your greatest risk factors. It's up to each of us to individually asses the risks/rewards for ourselves.
How's your old avaition buddy doing these days, Ryan? I don't believe we've heard from him anywhere for quite some time.
...the hang gliding Industry's biggest threat and must be brutally suppressed when and wherever it rears its ugly head.
...that aviation...
Aviation.
...forgives capriciously. Some people can make a whole string of pretty MASSIVE mistakes, and all still ends well. Then someone else can make just one or two relatively small errors...
...like flying prone or using 150 pound test fishing line for a weak link...
...and get seriously injured or worse. It's really hit or miss, pardon the pun.
What pun?
One of the biggest dangers of all is what's called NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT, which is when a statistically poor odds choice...
...like flying prone with both hands on the control bar...
...turns out positive, we are more likely to repeat that choice... or maybe even push it a little further next time.
- Like flying prone with both hands on the control bar. You'd be amazed how many people in hang gliding are fatally crashing while prone with both hands on the control bar. Reminds me of all the automobile fatalities in which the drivers die with both hands on the steering wheel and the right foot on the brake pedal.
Joe Gregor - 2004/09
There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.
When will people ever LEARN?
- How 'bout when a Rooney Link breaks when it's SUPPOSED TO? Would that be a fair example?
You flew your 3rd mountain flight in moderately turbulent conditions. You had a wonderful flight and experience. Are you likely to accept flying in similar conditions another day?
Maybe even some of those more turbulent conditions which would allow him to get substantially over launch. The mere thought totally horrifies me.
Probably. Does your positive outcome last time mean you are likely to have a positive outcome next time? No. It's a single data point, it tells you what you did and how it ended, but nothing about what you could expect next time.
- And u$hPa shreds all the negative data points so this game can get really confusing.
- Bullshit, Ryan. We've got close to a half hour of video on that flight alone which covers all significant aspects. And we've got a zillion data points on what he was actually doing and NOT ONE of them can be pointed to as problematic.
...in moderately turbulent conditions??? You'd be goddam lucky if you got away with just a broken arm.
I am writing this because I...
...CAN. I'm a u$hPa mainstreamer so Jack lets me say anything I feel like and silences anyone who presents a serious threat to me and the lunatic rot I spew.
...do not want to see you get hurt.
Don't worry. If he ever gets seriously fucked up the local Grebloville guys are pretty good at suppressing such information.
I want you to having nothing but ENJOYMENT in hang gliding.
So stay on those control tubes for another year or two. Leave the prone stuff to those of us who've been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.
And not just you, but anyone and everyone else who might be reading this.
- I'm reading this, Ryan. And I came up in hang gliding around the time you were born and when everybody started flying prone Day One, Flight One.
- Again Ryan... How come you're the only one writing this? In "The worlds largest hang gliding community." no less.
And all of your instructor's students, too! It's a bit interesting he said that was the best student flight in a long time... is that because he's launching students into turbulent conditions very early in their flying careers???
Yeah. Very few of them even make it to the primary. Most of the luckier end of the spectrum just crash in the narrow dry riverbed with the large rocks strewn all over the place. Most of the others I'd rather not talk about.
Is that because he's allowing them to fly prone in these conditions, with very little experience flying prone to date (even in smooth conditions)?
Un fucking believable. We now need PERMISSION from our instructors to fly two thousand foot Three sites prone.
It sounds like you are a bright guy and have become a skilled pilot- probably better than an average 3-mountain-flight new pilot. But like I said, your story reads like an accident report...
And everything we've seen in his videos just confirms your impression. I was only able to watch it in ninety second segments. The emotional stress was almost more than I could handle.
...and the people in those reports just become another statistic in the "dangerous" history of hang gliding (where most of those statistics follow equally obviously avoidable situations had the deceased or those nearby paused to consider the circumstances).
Suck my dick. We no longer have statistics to analyze. The best we can do is go back to the Doug Hildreth stuff that everyone studiously ignored but hang gliding has subsequently been degraded by you dickheads and now there are different elements in play.
Whether I've opened your eyes or just made you think, thank you for reading through this, and at the very least considering these thoughts.
Which are, essentially, that the Windsports instructional program is fundamentally incompetent, right Ryan? Any thoughts on why none of the sonsabitches are here engaging you in this discussion? I know beyond any shadow of a reasonable doubt that if you were going after some product of mine like this I would be. But none of these guys even have names.
If you can and will take them to heart and embrace them, dude thank you and well done... that is a greater accomplishment in my book than even a first soaring flight!
- Let him worry about his own book, Ryan.
- And fuck all the other Grebloville victims - all the ones who don't post videos of themselves flying prone on The Jack Show anyway.
It's very hard to take other's opinions or experiences and incorporate it into your own, without having actually learned "the hard way" yourself.
- Nice work on the grammar.
- If hang gliding were a legitimate branch of aviation fuckin' opinions wouldn't enter into any discussions.
That's why so many people repeat the same mistakes again and again throughout history (in hang gliding, and everywhere else).
Do we see anything analogous in conventional aviation?
Anyways- congrats again on the awesome flight, and I am sorry if I killed your buzz. Better your buzz gets killed than....
Got that, Nathan? You're highly likely to get KILLED if you don't listen to Ryan and clean up your act accordingly.
Cheers dude, and welcome to the addiction we call a sport but it's more like a calling, a lifestyle, a drug... it's pure living!
Get in line with Ryan and you've got PURE LIVING - eternal life, for all intents and purposes. Thou shalt have no other Gods before Ryan.
And you've gotta get in line with Ryan FAST 'cause:
I went out for my 3rd solo flight and it ended up being my first soaring flight, lasting 49 minutes from foot up to foot down with a pretty good landing. Launch was about 5pm in "moderate turbulence" with wind speeds in low and high cycles from 11-13 to 15-17. I timed and chose the lighter cycle to launch in.
I haven't done much flying prone (it was my choice to go prone) so when I got to the ridge I had crappy flying that I smoothed out over many passes.
My instructor congratulated me saying that was the best student flight he had seen in a long time.
Notice that Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight points to not one single frame of you DOING anything the least bit dangerous (and totally ignores Red's cross-controlling bullshit)?
There are only about five tells in the video itself (ignore title and captions) that this is one of your early high flights - harness type, no vario, twenty-couple second delay in going prone, going to the downtubes to set up for a "safe" approach and landing while still at oxygen supplement altitude, observer stationed at the old Frisbee (traffic cone) in the middle of the LZ. Zero noteworthy deficiencies in your flying - you could've been flying regularly as the Three for the past year for all one could tell otherwise.
Nothing about the approach and/or landing 'cause there's absolutely nothing to for him to comment on and he's overjoyed 'cause you're on the downtubes ten minutes early.
But you're gonna die slamming into the slope at launch because of the "moderate (straight in) turbulence" or elsewhere on the mountain because of a combination of your prone flying and the "moderate turbulence". And anybody wanna identify a video clip of the glider kicked around, rolled, dumped at any point by any of this "moderate turbulence"?
So you do one or two more flights like this one, rack up another hour or two flying prone in "moderate turbulence" minus any of the life altering crashes Ryan's telling you and everyone you're bordering on. So what happens to Ryan's position at that point? Not that the little motherfucker ever had a ghost of one in the first place.
I hear your words and thank you for them, your point is well made. I've read many accident reports...
Where? About and by whom? Any thoughts about conflict of interest?
...tales of caution, and resources on risk management. Everything you've said lines up.
What would you expect?
I'd like to think I can evaluate risk correctly and exercise good judgement, but I know that I'm inexperienced and therefore have a limited ability to do so.
Why do you need ANY experience to fully understand the issues? Does one need to be or have been an astronaut to understand what went wrong with Challenger and/or Columbia?
I've studied a lot of material and even put together simulations but I found out on the training hill that knowledge does not equal skill/experience/technique, it just provides a reference.
How much skill/experience/technique is figuring into your equations? Show me some segments from your videos in which skill and technique are coming into play.
I think I should make some clarifications and provide a little more context about this flight and the flights after it.
How much more context do we need? I remember a time in hang gliding when we flew without cameras that recorded all the flights in thirty frame per second high resolution video.
To me this doesn't diminish or make anything you've said less important.
Yeah, the only direction to go is up.
Does it make things less dangerous? No, just slightly different dangerous.
In southern California there's very little in the way of training hills. There are coastal sites (smooth air and limited) and mountain sites (rough air).
Always?
Where I'm learning most of the training is done on the beach and tandem training is done on the mountain. You get your H2 and continue solo training, over radio, from the mountain. Since practically every site around here is a thermal site... we have to learn to fly in "moderate turbulence".
Really? You're getting thermal turbulence before midmorning, in the evenings, when it's majorly overcast? People never sink out when it's dead because the thermal activity is always strong enough to produce turbulence?
During the tandem flights (avoiding the most active part of the day) I've experienced a limited range of turbulence.
But never glass, of course. The range never extends down that far.
"Moderate turbulence" seems pretty subjective (which is why I wrap it in quotes), it could be that my idea of moderate is higher or lower than others. Putting it on a scale of smooth...
What's that?
...to the most turbulence I've experienced at noon during a tandem flight (before it actually gets strong), which is strong to me, this flight had "moderate turbulence" with winds predictably changing about 5mph over a minute and holding steady for several minutes at a time a little after 5pm. I am absolutely restricted from launching before 4pm...
By Windsports? The same guys who restrict people from flying prone?
...and was uncomfortable with conditions that early.
Good. If you're not doing anything that makes you a bit uncomfortable you're not likely to be learning anything of any value in terms of both your long term survival and enjoyment of the sport.
In my words I've had limited experience flying prone.
Read limited experience effectively controlling a glider.
The flights at the beach were not high enough to go prone.
Bullshit. Here's a video of a Dockweiler training sled:
All that upright flying 'cause you need it for landing and yet you roll in prone on the wheels just fine. Who'da thunk.
About a third of the previous two solos were prone, those included 90, 180, and 360 turns. I've flown prone in similar conditions tandem, but the experience is different. Therefore I don't have much experience prone, but I have some since the majority of my time has been upright.
How much prone time do you really need to get instinctive on turning a glider left or right?
It's a bit interesting he said that was the best student flight in a long time... is that because he's launching students into turbulent conditions very early in their flying careers??? Is that because he's allowing them to fly prone in these conditions, with very little experience flying prone to date (even in smooth conditions)?
Yes, and most of them don't make it far... It's a bit unnerving flying over their corpses littering the mountain side. Not only did I not die but I didn't even crash!
I like your tone here. There may be hope for you.
Okay, let's be realistic here.
Sorry, Ryan doesn't tolerate realism. Doesn't go over all that well on The Jack Show in general either, for that matter.
The lessons are tailored to the student's abilities and to work on skills suiting the conditions. Flight plan is thoroughly discussed and includes alternatives. He probably considered it a good student flight because I improved skills during the flight (such as prone flight), performed more items on the checklist than normal due to the extended flight, and encountered the expected lift while working on 360's and managed to stay in it.
- All without crashing even once into the mountainside. Amazing.
- Without a vario. You're wasting airtime.
Then finished it off with a good landing.
Hard not to finalling into a nice straight smooth seven.
I had another flight the very next day with the same flight plan. The truck gets to launch at 3pm, this time the wind hung around 15mph with gust up to 22mph over a few seconds and would hold for a few minutes at a time. I certainly couldn't time when a gust would happen.
Then you better hadn't plan on getting a lot of mountain launch thermal time over the course of your career.
Eventually the gust became less from 13-17 but still sudden and unpredictable to me.
To YOU.
- Try grass, leaves, ribbons down the slope.
- You SHOULD develop a feel for cycle length.
- If as you're launching in zero it instantly gusts to 22 what bad things are you expecting to happen?
- If you're worried about it instantly lulling to zero as your launching in 22 don't launch in 22. Launch when things are ramping up.
- What are you seeing other gliders doing at launch in similar conditions? What percentage of them are crashing?
- Which way will your glider go if you're doing an Upright Dive at 28 and the wind picks up to thirty?
I waited until 6pm when conditions became comfortable for me...
You need to get to a point when you only worry about what's comfortable for your glider.
...which happened to be a much smoother 11mph. Did I feel the need to launch in higher winds because the conditions worked so well for me the day before?
NEED to? You don't NEED to launch at all or anything. Wouldn't you rather be looking down at launch waiting for the wind to ease off instead of standing on it?
No, it was a different day and I didn't like the way it felt. I launched and went out to the ridge and made a few passes, but I didn't encounter much lift...
Big surprise.
...and went prone when it was clear the air was stable.
Good job. When it's not stable you wanna be upright and ready for anything Mother Nature can throw at you.
Did I try to work harder and really push it as I slowly got lower?
No, if you'd really wanted to stay up you'd have launched when the wind was decent.
No, I moved out front where the student house thermal is to continue work on my 360's. I encountered very little lift and eventually fell out of it.
Get a vario.
Did I try to push it because it looked like I still had the altitude to give it one last shot and soar as long as the day before? No, I headed to the LZ and had a very enjoyable flight and landing. The next flight was even shorter. I was actually supposed to fly in “moderate turbulence” again but waited longer than I needed to and launched in 8mph winds and took a short sled ride and had a good landing.
Way to move up the proficiency ladder, dude.
Fortunately for me I don't feel the need to push myself and break my own records at any cost.
Haven't heard anything about an actual cost. You should ALWAYS be pushing yourself. We're all human, we're always making small mistakes, and we should always be pushing to execute tasks as flawlessly as humanly possible. Or do you have some other goal in mind for your flying career?
But I do feel the need to improve and build.
Not terribly consistent with what you just said.
Maybe soon I will do this again but with more refined skill and better judgement when the conditions are right.
- The conditions WERE right.
- We need to be constantly training and prepared for circumstances when the conditions AREN'T right.
- We also need to be equipping for circumstances when the conditions aren't right, right? Otherwise why are you flying with a helmet and parachute? The last two fatalities at Quest were professional pilots - hang glider tandem aerotow and commercial passenger jet. Both of those motherfuckers died 'cause they equipped for circumstances when the conditions are right. But you already know that 'cause you've read many accident reports, tales of caution, resources on risk management and studied a lot of material and even put together simulations.
You seem to have a good attitude. A pilot with a good attitude will gain respect and more invites to fly more sites. Keep up the good work.
And an actual pilot who understands what a total load of crap this sport has become and tries to do anything about it will be pissed all over and permanently ostracized like no one would believe. So make sure you keep that good attitude.
Nate Hallahan - 2017/08/31 21:29:25 UTC
Thank you Flybop.
Airthug,
Hopefully my last post didn't come across as disrespectful or dismissive.
It did and should have. Ryan's an incompetent lying little shit in desperate need of permanent irreversible discrediting. And you nailed the little motherfucker really well with that one. Well enough for him to have realized he'd bitten off more that he could chew and needed to exit the discussion immediately. And he's participated in three other Jack Show discussions since - undoubtedly all more important than this one.
I really do value the input of anyone willing to point out anything unsafe...
Like Ryan himself. And ditto for his dickheaded father.
...so please continue to do so.
That post was from the end of last month. Don't hold your breath.
It's still early enough for me to remove bad habits and reinforce good ones.
Just resume flying upright and everything will be fine. Just be sure to confine your flights to smooth sled stuff - the kind of conditions for which the Industry "designs" its towing "equipment".
I'm sure it's pretty common for students to view their instructors as infallible gods, even if it leads them down a bad road.
Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
And where's Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney now? And try to find anybody saying anything positive about Mitch for that matter.
There are three different instructors here...
Whom you still decline to name.
...and they all have their own way of doing things. But they do discuss things with each other.
- Have they come to any consensus on what Joe Greblo's Four or Five Cs are?
I get what you're saying Christopher.
Please understand that I'm not advocating professional infalliblity. Not really sure where I mentioned that, but I can understand where you might have drawn that assumption. None the less, I simply refer to "us" as the "professional pilots" as a term to describe the pilots that do this for a living. Yes, we're just humans... bla bla bla... my point is that we do this a whole sh*tload more than the "average pilot"... and not just a little more... a LOT.
We discuss this stuff a lot more as well. We vet more ideas. This isn't just "neat stuff" to us... it's very real and we deal with it every day.
It's not "us" that has the track record... it's our process.
We're people just like anyone else. And that's the point. THIS is how we do it... normal, fallible humans... and it bloody well works.
So I don't give much credence to something that someone doesn't agree with about what we do for some theoretical reason.
Take this weaklink nonsense.
What do I "advocate"?
I don't advocate shit... I *USE* 130 test lb, greenspun cortland braided fishing line.
It is industry standard.
It is what *WE* use.
If someone's got a problem with it... we've got over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND TANDEM TOWS and COUNTLESS solo tows that argue otherwise. So they can politely get stuffed.
As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in reality... but does it work in theory?"
Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot
I know how that works.
- Wow, they must come up with lotsa really good stuff. Do they ever put any of it into print so that everyone could benefit from it? Wouldn't it be in their own interest to improve the safety of the sport overall?
I've observed what seems to me a high level of safety and consideration in the way that they do things.
With a totally gutted accident reporting system it seems to me that you can only guess at what a high level of safety is.
Safety and evaluation of conditions is a constant discussion.
So that's how we evolved from flying prone from two seconds after launch to three seconds before landing at the beach to flying two thousand foot mountains entirely upright.
There are several H4s that fly at this site with topless gliders that have the type of launches and landings that worked out this time. I watched one guy get tossed around like a leaf on a slow approach but still land safely. The group cheered but I watched my instructor walk over and give him a long talk.
- The only thing the crowd gives a rat's ass about is stopping on one's feet within half a wingspan of the old Frisbee in the middle of the LZ.
- So what's that saying about the integrity of the u$hPa Pilot Proficiency System?
I've heard him tell one pilot that she is flying a glider beyond her skill level, she has had many crashes.
Wild guess. Blown foot landings in the LZ.
Despite this very few take a step back.
And perish the thought that anyone consider going to wheel landings.
One former student says that these instructors will not sign you off prematurely. Here they require 40 hours of flight before an H3 sign off, more than what USHPA requires.
Four times the u$hPa requirement for a Three. Twenty times what it was when I got mine in 1982 when NOBODY flew upright. So were we 1982 high site qualified Threes having twenty times the crash rates of 2017 Grebloville Threes? I'm guessing not. But it's hard to tell fer sure as u$hPa immediately shreds all the data it gets now. So tell me how one avoids the obvious conclusion that 2017 Grebloville instruction sucks at a bare minimum twenty times as much as typical 1982 instruction.
And I can tell you in no uncertain terms that 1982 instruction sucked bigtime. But at least we didn't have any of today's dildos forcing us to fly upright. It was UNIMAGINABLE back then for anyone to fly so much as a thirty foot dune flight upright.
And does anybody think for a nanosecond that Windsports would be reluctant to use its political influence to make their forty hour minimum for a Three SOP for u$hPa ratings?
Thank you so very much, Nathan, for getting me really thinking about this issue - enough to do the math, connect the dots, produce the smoking gun. Forty hours to try to catch up with a two hour level proficiency. And that's:
- after:
-- 35 years of glider and glider equipment evolution
-- Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney fixed all of our aerotowing, foot landing, unhooked launch problems for us
- with:
-- essentially zero cost high quality video recording of any flight one cares to record
-- a global information / communications network that 1980s science fiction writers couldn't begin to imagine
Joe Greblo
- 2000 - Exceptional Service
- 2006 - Commendation
- 2008 - Letter of Appreciation
Keep up the great work Joe. You've now made it possible for us to accomplish in forty hours what we used to be able to do in two over a third of the century ago.
John Kelly Harrison - 55 - Nevada - 53375 - H5 - 1996/10/23 - Joe Greblo - PL TFL TPL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC - ADV INST, TAND INST
And nobody's ever printed a single word about why two hours was a dangerously low requirement to be met for qualification for Three level flying and site access or suggested remedial training programs for the old Two Hour guys to bring them up to proper/safe speed level.
I spent a long time at the beach perfecting small skills because they were not perfect...
Flare timing comes to immediate mind.
...I thought I was doing fine but my instructor was not satisfied.
Goddam right. Thinking you have your flare timing perfected is blindingly obvious evidence that you haven't.
And I think I will go back in the next few weeks even though I do not think anything is wrong, but I can bet there will be something to improve.
See above. And be sure to keep getting lotsa upright time. That'll go a long way to helping you get your flare timing perfected.
Because of this I have faith in my instructors...
The ones that take twice as long to teach their students the same stuff their regular u$hPa contemporaries do and twenty times as long as their 1982 predecessors.
...and we all know that even if they have confidence in me but something makes me uncomfortable I am to back off, and that is the right decision.
That's just more evidence that their instruction sucks. Three possibilities:
- They're failing to:
-- identify the actual threats of which you, their student, are aware
-- train you to discern between actual threats and nonissues
- All of the above.
You are obviously very safety oriented and wish to see others stay safe.
Failure to identify an actual threat. Confirmation.
You've probably also developed an expertise in safety and judgment.
Tell me how some asshole who tells students and the general hang gliding public that an input which will roll a glider one way will actually roll it the other can have developed any solid expertise in anything useful.
Since I am going to be at this site for a while and you know the conditions that exists at the site available to me, and hopefully the instructions don't seem so reckless as I think you thought, and you know a bit about the way I think... Do you have any additional thoughts, methods, techniques, or resources you would like to share to help me progress safely?
- That paragraph needs a lot of work.
- Fuck no. Ryan is u$hPa mainstream. u$hPa isn't and can't be in the safety business. So it's gotten into the risk management business.
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
Safety in hang gliding- or anything for that matter- is mostly about statistics and odds. Flying always is a risk, but when that risk is minimized where possible, and actively managed when unavoidable, the reward of experiencing flight can be well-worth the risk. The level of risk is also hugely variable, for every pilot and on every day.
Your story reads a bit like a seen-it-too-many-times-before accident report. Inexperienced pilot on 3rd mountain solo launches into active conditions. Pilot had even less experience flying prone, yet went prone after launching. If that story ended with "pilot lost control and impacted hillside" would people be surprised by that conclusion, or would they have kind of a well-what-did-you-expect sort of reaction?
See the difference?
- Common sense, consistent with Newtonian physics and fundamental established aeronautical theory, can be immediately put into practice for an immediate obvious payoff.
- Pretentious pseudo-intellectual babbling devoid of any hint of actual substance and of way less than zero use to anyone.
No further posts from Nathan on The Jack Show. Last active: 2017/09/15 16:54:15 UTC
