Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=59553
Tow Plane Operating Considerations

Michael Howard - 2019/05/01 11:38:23 UTC

The Aircraft

Tow planes are very specialized as they are designed for slow flight which makes them less desirable for general aviation/recreational use because most pilots want faster cruise speeds to fly cross country, so while there are a few exceptions, many tow plane owners mostly use their aircraft specifically for towing hang gliders. Since these planes are specialized they are also very expensive. The current price for a new Dragonfly from Pitman Air that is allowed to be used for towing is $53,452.80 plus $400.00 for the tow kit plus $400.00 for paint plus sales taxes. However there are a number of older tow planes in service that were grandfathered in to the FAA Light Sport rules in 2007, but those aircraft rarely appear on the market and because they are rare they hold their value, either way tow plane owners have a significant investment in their aircraft.

Maintenance and Condition Inspections

Tow planes are subjected to high frequency of take-offs and landings and are typically flown in much more challenging conditions (cross winds, thermal cycles etc.) compared to aircraft used for recreational purposes. This creates higher than normal stress and wear and tear to the airframe and undercarriage etc. Tow plane engines are run at full power for the take off and entire duration of the tow, which imposes higher than normal operating stress on the engine. Once the glider releases the tow line, the plane is descended rapidly to fetch the next hang glider. This means the engine is run at full power and then dropped to idle during the descent, therefore rapidly cooling the engine and causing significant and rapid temperature cycles which ultimately reducing engine life. 

There's extensive scheduled/routine maintenance required for the entire aircraft including replacing life limited parts, such as spark plugs, carburetor parts, fuel lines, hoses, fuel pump, cables, tires, brakes etc. plus the engine has a TBO (Time Between Overhaul) set at 300 hours which includes replacing the crankshaft and pistons etc. This means removing the engine and removing exhaust, radiator etc. and shipping he engine to a Rotax Repair facility and reinstalling the engine after rebuild.

The total cost is typically around $3500. Some aircraft owners carry a spare engine which is around $5500 without the gearbox and without electric starter kit etc. and not including sales tax and shipping.

Unscheduled maintenance may include a seized engine, damaged gearbox, failed stator or something less serious such as corroded exhaust or stone damaged propeller, the point is that maintenance costs vary and can be very significant.

In addition to scheduled and unscheduled maintenance, Tow planes require an annual condition inspection and 100 hour condition inspection, whichever comes first, which is only performed by persons holding an FAA Aircraft Mechanic (A&P/AI Mechanic - Airframe and Power-plant Mechanic with Inspector certificate) or FAA LSRM (Light Sport Repairman Maintenance) certificate.

Annual/100 Hour Condition Inspections costs start around $400 depending on the service provider, location, complexity of the aircraft and work needed which also depends on the condition and quality of records (logbook entries) and condition of the aircraft - more

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble

Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

Go fuck yourself, Mick.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/23.90
Gregg on aerotowing

Davis Straub - 2019/05/03 12:05:12 UTC

Gregg gets you up fast

Gregg Ludwig - 2019/05/03

I know that you are sometimes just "a regular competition pilot" (your words), but just wanted to mention that I hope you all will continue to use me for event aerotowing. The last few weeks have been really fun for me. It was a good crew of tug pilots as usual (and a great line up of pilots and support personnel).

I have some exciting things in the works to further improve the aerotow experience behind my trike. My trike will receive significant upgrades after this season that will result in even better climb performance. Good climb performance helps get quickly above 300' and above the turbulence from trees at Wilotree and also climb better with the high density altitude at Big Spring.

I know that you are sometimes just "a regular competition pilot"

Remind me to steer well clear of regular competition pilots.

...(your words)...

Davis's words tend to morph quite a bit.

...but just wanted to mention that I hope you all will continue to use me...

Don't worry, Davis has always been really great at using people.

It was a good crew of tug pilots as usual...

Isn't it always.

...(and a great line up of pilots...

Those aren't pilots. They're tug pilot passengers.

...and support personnel).

The folk who go around making sure everyone is using appropriate bridles and weak links. By the way... Just what is an appropriate weak link nowadays? And what's it supposed to doing for us?

I have some exciting things in the works to further improve the aerotow experience behind my trike.

Make things more convenient? Not sure I like the sound of where this is going.

My trike will receive significant upgrades after this season that will result in even better climb performance.

Why?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3661
Flying the 914 Dragonfly

Jim Rooney - 2008/12/06 20:01:49 UTC

You will only ever need full throttle for the first fifty feet of a tandem tow. Don't ever pull a solo at full throttle... they will not be able to climb with you. You can tow them at 28 mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weak links will go left and right.

What's the point? Better climb performance just translates to virtually certain inconveniences. Then you've just gotta get the gliders back on the carts with new appropriate weak links and start all over again.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

I don't tow solos under full power... you could't keep up with me if I did. I wouldn't be going faster horizontally, but my acceleration and climb rate would be so extreme that most pilots couldn't keep up the timing needed to make it work. (I think Bo's the only one I've successfully towed at full boost)

See? Solos just can't keep up with you, execute the timing needed to make it work. 'Cept for Bo of course. The timing he executes is absolutely phenomenal to behold.

And nobody else was ever able to duplicate it until...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).

Then everybody who told the tug pilot that they were doing that was suddenly able to.

Good climb performance helps get quickly above 300' and above the turbulence from trees at Wilotree and also climb better with the high density altitude at Big Spring.

Oh. Trees, turbulence.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim - Rooney - 2008/11/22 22:31:35 UTC

Nail on the head Brian!

The simple fact is this. The only reason anyone even gives Tad the time of day is that they want to believe him. Why? Because they don't like to be inconvenienced by a weaklink break. That's it.

Sure, everyone digs around for other reasons to believe, but at the heart of it, it's convenience.
No one is actually scared to fly with a standard weaklink. They may say they are, but deep down inside, they're not. BTW, this weaklink as a lifeline comment... any tow pilot that takes you over something you can't get out from should be shot. It is one of the cardinal rules of towing. Again, "I wana believe" rationalization.

Tad loves to speak of himself as a scientifically minded person. Yet he ignores a data pool that is at minimum three orders of magnitude higher than his. It is thus that I ignore him.

I imagine that could be really inconvenient for the glider with less power and an increase in the safety of the towing operation a bit lower.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

Which brings us to the reason to have a 914 in the first place... you need one.
Something made you get a 914 instead of a 582. 914s are horribly expensive to own and maintain. If you own one, you need it... it's a safety thing. Short runways, tall trees, whatever. You've got a 914 to increase your safety margin.

http://ozreport.com/20.102
The Quest Air Open Part 2

Davis Straub - 2016/05/22 02:26:08 UTC

The pilot's weak link broke at apparently the same time as tug pilot gave him the rope. The tug pilot gave the hang glider pilot the rope because the hang glider pilot's glider was pulling the tow plane's tail to the east forcing the tug toward trees that the tug with this drag would not be able to get above. All of the hang glider's undersurface was visible in the tug pilot's mirror.

But I guess that turbulence really isn't that much of an issue for weak links - as long as they're properly tied and well maintained...

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

Actually, that is our expectation of performance for weak links on hang gliders here at Cloud 9, too. Primarily, we want the weak link to fail as needed to protect the equipment, and not fail inadvertently or inconsistently. We want our weak links to break as early as possible in lockout situations, but be strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent weak link breaks from turbulence. It is the same expectation of performance that we have for the weak links we use for towing sailplanes.

Is that your expectation of performance of hang glider aerotowing weak links as well?

Oh, by the way...

Good climb performance helps get quickly above 300'...

Three hundred feet? Nah...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3622
Aero Towing Update

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/08 14:29:45 UTC

Glad you're ok Paul.
There's a saying with tug pilots... the first 500ft are MINE. Please please please do not change the way you fly the first 500ft for anything (or anyone). You will be asked many times to do so, always with good intentions. Don't do it. If they can't hang (and they can, even if they don't realize it), then that's their problem, not yours.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=9084
Aerotow problem/question:Properly washed, I think

Jim Gaar - 2008/10/28 15:55:22 UTC

We always told towed pilots that the first 500 feet belonged to the tug pilot. They have enough to do to keep themselves safe.

Jim Rooney - 2008/12/11 18:45:01 UTC

Yup, the first 500ft are mine. Try to keep up. Your tugger generally REALLY wants to help you, and will do all that he can to do so, but he's got trees to stay out of as well.

FIVE hundred feet. Everyone and his dog knows that all tugs are totally helpless with less than 425 feet of clearance over the treetops. Do make an effort to get your shit together on this, Gregg. We all play by the same rules...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.

...or we don't play.

Notice that never once in the entire history of modern hang glider aerotowing has there ever been a tug driver who didn't want all the fuckin' power he could get. And never once has either a tug or glider ender viewed extra horsepower as any kind of threat to either plane.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3661
Flying the 914 Dragonfly

Jim Rooney - 2008/12/06 20:01:49 UTC

Don't ever pull a solo at full throttle... they will not be able to climb with you. You can tow them at 28 mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weak links will go left and right.

Not a BREATH about increasing the threat to the glider - just inconveniences for both planes. Even though...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

You're 100% onto it... relying on the skill of the pilot is a numbers game that you'll lose at some point.

I find that so many people do not appreciate how fast and furious lockouts can happen.
They're exponential in nature.
Twice the time doesn't equate to twice the "bad"... it's four times the "bad"... then 16... it gets dramatic fast.

Is a weaklink going to save your ass? Who knows? But it's nice to stack the deck in your favour.

...lockout prevention through skill of the pilots at BOTH ENDS and lockout mitigation by a weak link of any strength is a total crap shoot.

When Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?

Jim Rooney - 2010/05/31 01:53:13 UTC

BTW, Steve Wendt is exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one that signed off my instructor rating.

...wants to keep his new scooter tow students safe he launches and pulls them at low power. Tug drivers...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3622
Aero Towing Update

Paul Tjaden - 2008/11/08 01:23:01 UTC

Well.....tonight, I believe that I was the "dope on the rope" only I was at the front end. I asked Peter Kane from Richmond to be my second victim and he stupidly agreed. A decision was made to once again use the "Falcon on wheels" that Rhett had flown the previous night. I assumed that Peter would use a V bridle to keep the bar pressure light but when I went out to hook on he said he wanted to use a pro tow bridle and that he felt confident that bar pressure would not be an issue. I decided to go ahead but was inwardly concerned that I needed to really keep the speed slow so as not to risk forcing Peter too high above me at low altitude on initial launch. Because of this, I hauled the tug off the ground before it was really ready to fly and I got behind the power curve. I heard the prop stall and felt the plane wallow as I clawed a few feet skyward. Lowering the nose a bit, I was able to get the wing flying again but the huge trees at the south end of the runway were fast approaching and I appeared to be just about level with their tops. I judged that Peter still had room to land straight ahead so I gave him the rope and then easily climbed out while watching Peter, indeed, stop well short of the trees.

Nah, fuck the pro toad on the Falcon...

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/08 14:29:45 UTC

Glad you're ok Paul.
There's a saying with tug pilots... the first 500ft are MINE. Please please please do not change the way you fly the first 500ft for anything (or anyone). You will be asked many times to do so, always with good intentions. Don't do it. If they can't hang (and they can, even if they don't realize it), then that's their problem, not yours.

Blast your plane into the air and don't worry about what's going on behind you. His problem, not yours. Don't even think about...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

...giving him the rope - which would most assuredly radically improve your situation (as it most assuredly did for Paul when he exercised the option) at the cost of a mere bit of inconvenience at worst for the glider.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

And lost or anemic power for the tug.
---
2019/05/04 12:00:00 UTC

And the reason you've never heard so much as a whisper from any tug driver about increasing the safety for the glider by reducing takeoff power and never will is 'cause that issue's just as lethal for them as it is for us. They're never in a million years gonna slightly crack open that can o' worms.

[<BS>]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=59617
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PydudYf-S60
$199 paragliding payout towing winch in action

The line break in the air is not dangerous, the dangerous part is you cannot release. It's just like a auto release, nothing dangerous at all.

Don't know why you guys worry about that stuff.

[Tad Eareckson]

Pure unadulterated Hewett - 'cept a much more elegant insanely underbuilt chunk o' hardware on the lower front end.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

And that's the best he can do even for his demo/advertising video.

The folk who attempt to tow efficiently and sustainably all soon realize that all the stuff to which the glider's connected needs to be powerful, brutally strong, competently engineered, and expensive. And the expense of trying to make due with cheap underbuilt crap is a thousand times more than what starting on Day One proper equipment would be. And that's assuming that it doesn't injure or kill somebody.

Fuckin' 914 Dragonfly is underbuilt and just adequately powered for its job. And those assholes use two thousand pound Spectra towlines.

Three hundred pound towline - and it blows in glassy smooth air at a low tow angle with the glider climbing slowly and everything going fine. I wonder what he's using as the focal point of his safe towing system.

Talks about five hundred pound line. I wouldn't tow up on a paraglider with anything that would blow at under two Gs. (And I wouldn't go up on a paraglider in thermal soaring conditions anyway.)

[Steve Davy]

The folk who attempt to tow efficiently and sustainably all soon realize that all the stuff to which the glider's connected needs to be powerful, brutally strong, competently engineered, and expensive.

That reminded me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd9QxRPb3hk
Ls-6 lifts rear end of car during auto-tow

[Tad Eareckson]

Obvious use of a Tad-O-Link. Did ya see just how badly the driver...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3380
Lauren and Paul in Zapata

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/07/21 14:27:04 UTC

Zapata has delivered as promised, day after day with howling winds and good lift, where flights of over 100 miles (and much more) are possible.

Yesterday I chased Paul again. The tow rope weak link broke when Paul locked out and the weak link he got from Tad did not break. Russell said it was about the worst he has ever had his tail pulled around. Anyhow, I would advise against those weak links, though Tad's barrel releases do seem better able to release under stress. After Russell got a new rope and Paul recovered, he was late leaving and got trapped under some cirrus.

...had his tail pulled around? And has anyone noticed that...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

The lockout Lauren mentioned was precipitated by my attempt to pull on more VG while on tow. I have done this before but this time the line wouldn't cleat properly and while I was fighting it, I got clobbered and rolled hard right in a split second. There was a very large noise and jerk as the relatively heavy weak link at the tug broke giving me the rope. I recovered quickly from the wingover and flew back to the field to drop the line and then relaunched after changing to a normal weak link. I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do. Had the tug's link not broken, things could have gotten very ugly very fast. I still don't like weak links breaking when they shouldn't, but the one I was using was way too strong.

...immediately after:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).

we totally ceased hearing incidents of Tad-O-Link induced killer lockouts and Dragonfly tail-pulling-around incidents?

How astronomically odd. One would've predicted that the rates of such near disasters and much worse would've immediately shot through the ceiling. Maybe we should all go to three G weak links to smooth things out even better than they are today.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=59602
A small business instructor responds

Swift - 2019/05/14 01:45:05 UTC

http://ozreport.com/7.110
FAA, Lookout and their Tugs

Jayne DePanfilis - 2003/04/23

The recent situation at Lookout Mountain Flight Park regarding the suspension of aerotow operations by an FAA field inspector from Atlanta helped to focus the FAA on the need to either issue a new Towing Exemption to the USHGA or to revise the current Towing Exemption held by the USHGA to allow for the use of heavier ultralights for the purpose of aerotow launching hang gliders.

The FAA understands the importance of aerotow instruction/flying for the survival and growth of our sport. The FAA indicated a desire to help the USHGA address the need to revise the Towing Exemption when USHGA representatives first met with them at the Spring BOD meeting in Ontario, California in February of 2002 to discuss Sport Pilot initiatives. The USHGA Sport Pilot Task Force, members of the Executive Committee, and Sue Gardner continued to address the need for an increased weight limit for the towing vehicles at the Fall USHGA BOD meeting held in Orlando last October.

The issue of primary importance during these discussions was the (excess) weight of the ultralights that are in use at flight parks for the safer conduct of aerotow operations. The FAA understands implicitly that the Bailey Moyes Dragon Fly Ultralights currently in use at LMFP is essential to most aerotow flight park operations. They know that the Dragon Fly has recently been certificated in Germany. They know that the USHGA considers it to be a "standard" for the implementation of safer aerotowing operations. The USHGA Sport Pilot Task Force provided the FAA with documentation supporting the use of these ultralights as early as the spring of 2002. This valuable information did not fall on deaf ears. The USHGA has been working very closely with Sue Gardner for more than one year now on these matters.

On Monday of this week I spoke directly with Sue Gardner, the FAA's Program Manager and Technical Expert for Sport Pilot, and I explained the situation at LMFP to her in great detail. Sue indicated to me that she intends to immediately move forward with the USHGA's request to increase the weight limit of the ultralight vehicles used to aerotow launch hang gliders. The request to increase the weight limit of the ultralights that are used to tow hang gliders was formally submitted to the FAA by me in December of last year. The request was drafted by Bill Bryden. The situation at Lookout these past two weeks has shown Sue that the USHGA needs "immediate relief" from the FAA regarding the need to increase the weight limits of these ultralights so they can be used without question to aerotow hang gliders.

It is my hope that the revision to the USHGA's current Towing Exemption can be made within the next two or three weeks. The current weight limit for these aircraft is 254 pounds. Discussions are currently underway to increase the weight limit to 496 pounds plus allowances for (more) weight similar to those that are provided to ultralights operating now under the EAA, USUA, or ASC exemption for two-place training in an ultralight. The two-place towing exemption maintained by the EAA, USUA and ASC includes allowances for a parachute system, floats, etc. Bill Bryden is currently negotiating this new weight limit with the FAA on behalf of the USHGA.

The USHGA knows that Sue Gardner is a friend to recreational aviators and while the USHGA recently recognized her with an exemplary service award, I would like to publicly thank her once again for understanding what the USHGA needs most from the FAA to ensure that we will be able to continue to conduct flight park operations, aerotow operations, in the safer manner to which we have become accustomed.

Yeah, HEAVIER more POWERFUL turbocharged 914 Dragonflies (Dragon Fly is one word, you moron) to do the job RIGHT!

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

Which brings us to the reason to have a 914 in the first place... you need one.
Something made you get a 914 instead of a 582. 914s are horribly expensive to own and maintain. If you own one, you need it... it's a safety thing. Short runways, tall trees, whatever. You've got a 914 to increase your safety margin.

Double the weight limit.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 18:54:27 UTC

I'm confused. I never said the tug's ass was endangered. That's why we use 3strand at the tug's end. Using 4 strand can rip things off (it's happened). When forces are achieved that do break a 3 strand, your tail gets yanked around very hard, which does have implications as to the flight characteristics and flightpath. AKA, I have no desire to allow you to have the ability to have that effect on me when I tow you... esp near the ground.

Aerotow instruction/flying necessary for...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

...the survival and growth of our sport. Bill Bryden...

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.

...to the rescue.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

And now the Dragonflies - which were necessary for the survival of...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/01 03:46:29 UTC

Among ourselves, we agree (via the waiver) that we understand we're engaged in a risky sport that can cause serious injury or death. We each agree that we are personally and individually responsible for our own safety. If we have an accident and get hurt, we agree in advance that it is solely our own fault, no matter what the circumstances might be. We sign at the bottom saying that we fully understand these things, that we accept them, and that we know we are giving up the right to sue anybody if an accident happens.

Those are fundamental tenets of our sport. We are all individually responsible for ourselves and our safety. We need to see and avoid all other pilots, avoid crashing into people or property and use good judgment when flying. If someone doesn't agree with those principles, then they don't need to be involved in our sport.

...our sport are rather rapidly going extinct. So what projections might we be able to draw from watching trends like this one?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

Which is another way of saying that every single crash in the entire history of modern aerotowing could've been prevented if only the Pilot In Command - the guy on the front end - had been competent enough to squeeze the lever on the joystick or stomp the foot pedal before whatever was going on back there got the passenger into too much trouble. Also that...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18777
Accident - Broken Jaw - Full Face HG Helmet

Keith Skiles - 2010/08/28 05:20:01 UTC

Last year, at LMFP I saw an incident in aerotow that resulted in a very significant impact with the ground on the chest and face. Resulted in a jaw broken in several places and IIRC some tears in the shoulder.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545
Cart stuck incidents

Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC

I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.

...you're a far superior tug pilot to all the ones whose passengers left the fields in ambulances, choppers, body bags. And that list conspicuously includes Bobby...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 08:24:31 UTC

Did I miss any?
Is it clear what I mean by "We"?
I didn't make the system up.
And I'm not so arrogant to think that my precious little ideas are going to magically revolutionise the industry.
There are far smarter people than me working this out.
I know, I've worked with them.
(Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit... for example.)

...Bailey who's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit and far smarter than you - as incomprehensible as that may be to any of us stupid non tug pilot muppets.

Steve Kroop...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.

...has for over thirteen years now had his name on a document...

http://www.ushpa.org/page/hg-tandem-aerotow-operations.aspx
HG Tandem Aerotow Operations

Should the tandem glider become unattached from the tug during this maneuver...

...that warns that a tandem glider may drop like a brick for 750 feet if it "becomes unattached" under less than ideal textbook circumstances. (And if he's such a good fucking friend of yours I find it a bit odd that he's never once offered a single public whisper of support for you on any issue in which you've come under fire.)

You're not saying, "Any fifteen percent competent tug pilot can fix whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope." It's first person singular 'cause you're such total hot shit - at least as good as and almost certainly better than anybody else any of us stupid muppets have ever heard of.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 18:54:27 UTC

I'm confused. I never said the tug's ass was endangered. That's why we use 3strand at the tug's end. Using 4 strand can rip things off (it's happened). When forces are achieved that do break a 3 strand, your tail gets yanked around very hard, which does have implications as to the flight characteristics and flightpath. AKA, I have no desire to allow you to have the ability to have that effect on me when I tow you... esp near the ground.

Which is another way of saying that you ACTUALLY CAN'T fix whatever's going on back there by giving us the rope. You're saying here that you can't react to a critical low level critical misalignment issue before a triple strand 130 pound Greenspot weak link does your job for you.

And you're also NOT SAYING that the four strand you and your moronic colleagues started out with was the slightest issue for the safety of the Dragonfly's launch. You assholes only shifted to three after finding out that a tow mast breakaway designed to blow at the same tension as a four strander...

http://ozreport.com/5.126
Flytec Dragonfly

USAFlytec - 2001/07/14

Steve Kroop - Russell Brown - Bob Lane - Jim Prahl - Campbell Bowen

The tail section of the Dragonfly is designed so that it can accept in-line as well as lateral loads. Furthermore the mast extension, which is part of the tow system, is designed to break away in the event of excessive in-line or lateral loads. The force required to cause a breakaway is roughly equivalent to the force required to break the double weaklink used on the tail bridle. More simply put, the mast would break away long before any structural damage to the aircraft would occur.

...is just as likely to blow as the four strander will. And that four strander was NEVER mentioned as an issue for safe Dragonfly control. It was ENTIRELY about...

http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Aerotow FAQ

Quest Air Hang Gliding

Weak Link

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.

IMPORTANT - It should never be assumed that the weak link will break in a lockout.
ALWAYS RELEASE THE TOWLINE before there is a problem.

...a good rule of thumb for breaking before the pressure of the towline could reach a level that compromised the HANDLING OF THE GLIDER while being strong enough to not break every time one flew into a bit of rough air. (And just how well did we find that to be working out in the REAL world?)

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27909
Dragonfly Accident at Lookout

Jim Rooney - 2012/06/09 03:05:22 UTC

BTW, you have no need or use of reminding me of the other tug pilot that we lost.
She was a friend of mine and an exceptionally close friend of my mates.
You will likewise not be able to inform me of anything regarding her accident.
Allow me to inform you.
She was a rookie and it was a rookie mistake made under duress and extremely low.

After dumping the tandem tow and climbing out to two hundred feet Keavy made a rookie mistake made under duress and extremely low. She wasn't under duress and extremely low with the tandem connected and her 914 Dragonfly tickling the soybeans with its wheels. She was just under duress and extremely low after executing a 270 and climbing to Chesapeake Bay Bridge center span level. Go figure.

And of course...

15-03805
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8575/16461636509_bc5610be13_o.png


http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7309/11414153476_3ca8cc4036_o.png
42-05328

...tug drivers never do anything wrong that will affect the safety of the glider.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1079
$15 pacifiers

Jim Rooney - 2005/09/22 14:05:50 UTC

Ok, as long as we're digging this deeply into it....

It is not merely a matter of inconvenience. I was there, and in my oppinion Steve came rather close to breaking his legs. I was getting ready to dial 911.

Sure, being on tow at the wrong time is an extremely bad thing. But don't tell us that being off tow at the wrong time is all sweet and wonderful. Yes, we prepare for it, but that doesn't make it a safe situation. It makes it a manageable situation. There are times where it's better to be on tow than off tow. Ask anyone that's dragged a dolly into the air.

Ok, as long as we're digging this deeply into it....

Yeah, let's dig into it a little more deeply. A bit odd that you don't seem to be participating in any of these discussions anymore - given your past insatiable passions for them. So is there something else out there similarly worthy of your talents that so desperately needs being kept on the right track? Or did you just find your efforts in hang gliding so exhausting as to burn you out for the remainder of your time on the planet? (Should be a lot longer now...

08-19
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5277/30076449505_1f6ed2f804_o.png


...that you're no longer flying anything.)

It is not merely a matter of inconvenience.

It's only a matter of inconvenience when a Standard Aerotow Weak Link...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

...blows on comp pilots six times in a row in light morning conditions with no hint of a suggestion that anyone on either end of the rope...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3661
Flying the 914 Dragonfly

Jim Rooney - 2008/12/06 20:01:49 UTC

Don't ever pull a solo at full throttle... they will not be able to climb with you. You can tow them at 28 mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weak links will go left and right.

...was doing the slightest thing wrong.

I was there...

- Well then... That should make you an automatic foremost expert on everything that happened.
- So then how come you didn't check out Steve's release, see if it was a viable option, make sure he had it properly configured?

...and in my oppinion...

For some know-it-all asshole whose foundation in aeronautics is based ENTIRELY on...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

So please, find me something... that you didn't make... that I can go out and buy from a store... that's rated and quality controlled... that fits your desire for a "non one size fits all" model, and *maybe* we can talk.
But you see... I'm the guy you've got to convince.
(or whoever your tug pilot may be... but we all tend to have a similar opinion about this)

You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.

"light" weaklink issues?
"I had to land"... boo hoo.
Oh, I thought of an other one... I smashed into the earth after my weaklink let go cuz I fly as badly as I tow, and I'm only still here cuz my weaklink didn't let me pile in harder.

Your anecdotal opinion is supposed to sway me?
You forget, every tow flight you take requires a tug pilot... we see EVERY tow.
We know who the rockstars are and who the muppets are.
Do you have any idea how few of us there are?
You think we don't talk?
I'll take our opinion over yours any day of the week.

...OPINION you sure do a shit job of spelling it.

Steve came rather close to breaking his legs. I was getting ready to dial 911.

Wow. So who was towing him and who cleared him to launch with such an insanely dangerous piece of equipment...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

...on his end?

Sure, being on tow at the wrong time is an extremely bad thing. But don't tell us that being off tow at the wrong time is all sweet and wonderful.

We don't have to. You assured us three times a day for about a decade that it is.

Yes, we prepare for it...

Of course we do...

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2016/10/22
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
11. Hang Gliding Special Skill Endorsements
-A. Special Skills attainable by Novice
05. Aerotow

-f. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.

Then we're good to go in any total and instantaneous loss of thrust situation - as long as it's above a thousand feet in smooth air and on the call of a tandem aerotow instructor hooked into the same plane.

...but that doesn't make it a safe situation.

Yes it does.

It makes it a manageable situation.

If it can be managed it's safe. And all AT rated pilots are trained how to manage it. Same way they are to pull off consistent no-stepper spot landings so they can safely manage landings in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place in XC conditions.

And I have no freakin' clue why you were thinking Steve was coming rather close to breaking his legs and getting ready to dial 911 in a totally manageable situation. On 2009/09/29 I watched Denis Scheele have an increase in the safety of the towing operation as he was coming off the cart on a demo Talon (with no wheels) and crunch a downtube in one of these manageable situations. So then why aren't you getting ready to dial 911 for every single Ridgely launch if any one of them can easily translate into a legs breaking manageable situation?

There are times where it's better to be on tow than off tow.

But only about 99.999 percent of them. That's why we all need to use a standard loop of precision fishing line which will break six times in a row in light morning conditions and may or may not blow us off tow when that one in a hundred thousand shot comes by.

Ask anyone that's dragged a dolly into the air.

- I don't talk to assholes who've dragged dollies into the air. Also don't talk to launch monkeys who've allowed those accidents waiting to happen to get hooked up. Same reason I don't talk to assholes who've launched unhooked 'cause they never give themselves false senses of security just prior to launch - you being a prime example.

- Oh. So you're saying that things could get really ugly for someone flying a Rooney Link with a cart he's dragged into the air.

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.

Thank you.

Astounding that this astronomically stupid egomaniacal parasite was allowed to reach the prominence he did. And you can be one hundred percent positive the Establishment which enabled, empowered, promoted him will never again - in whatever it has remaining of an existence - tolerate anyone else like him.

(Pagen was a twenty times the intelligence and much smoother version - and you don't hear anyone citing him nowadays. Donnell Hewett... Never heard of him before.)

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

And here I was thinking that...

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2019/05/21

A weak link connects the V-pull to the release, providing a safe limit on the tow force. If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Aerotow FAQ

Quest Air Hang Gliding

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider...

http://www.dennispagen.com/products/Towing/TowingAloft.htm
Dennis Pagen Books

Towing Aloft - 1998/01-2019/05

Weak links very clearly will provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns and the like for this form of towing.

- So it's really hard to imagine that there could possibly be all that much going on back there for long enough for you to be able to react to a situation. (And we've never heard you condemn any of these highly esteemed authorities as being totally full o' shit.)

- So then is it really worth the inconvenience of...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

...six totally unnecessary pops in a row in light morning conditions if the tuggie can fix whatever's going on back there by giving us the rope? Or is the problem that very few tug pilots are as superbly qualified as you are to recognize that there's something going on back there and squeeze the brake lever on the joystick as the one-size-fits-all response to whatever it is that's going on back there?

If that's in fact the case I'm having a really hard time understanding why...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Nobody's talking about 130lb weaklinks? (oh please)
Many reasons.
Couple of 'em for ya... they're manufactured, cheap and identifiable.

See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins... I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.

So please, find me something... that you didn't make... that I can go out and buy from a store... that's rated and quality controlled... that fits your desire for a "non one size fits all" model, and *maybe* we can talk.
But you see... I'm the guy you've got to convince.

...you should give the least flying fuck what we gliders are using on our end.

(or whoever your tug pilot may be... but we all tend to have a similar opinion about this)

Really? Then it sorta sounds like you're actually NOT God's special gift to aerotug pilots. So then wouldn't it make a lot more sense to just require Standard Aerotow Weak Link maxes for the total shit tug pilots like Keavy Nenninger? The ones prone to making rookie mistakes under duress and extremely low that you assholes are sending us up behind? (Like Keavy who immediately dumped the tandem ride when the beaten up piece o' junk Dragonfly you assholes sent her up on started disintegrating?)

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

Is a weaklink going to save your ass? Who knows? But it's nice to stack the deck in your favour.

Really? Then how can you make the claim that you can fix whatever's going on back there by giving us the rope? You don't know that popping off tow on the decision of a loop of precision fishing line will save us but some douchebag watching our reflection in a mirror 250 feet away, squeezing a lever regardless of the tension being pulled and the glider's situation, leaving the glider with an instantaneous total loss of thrust plus 250 of Spectra towline draped over its control bar will automatically be a good thing?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

William Olive - 2013/02/27 20:55:06 UTC

Like the rest of us, you have no idea what really happened on that tow.
We probably never will know.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/28 01:17:55 UTC

Well said Billo
I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.

Ah but hg'ers get so uppity when you tell them not to speculate.

Yeah, nobody will ever have the slightest fucking clue what really happened on that tow (despite the idiot tug driver having stupidly blurted out EXACTLY what happened...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flyhg/message/17223
Pilot's Hotline winter flying

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/03 13:41

Yesterday was a light and variable day with expected good lift. Zach was the second tow of the afternoon. We launched to the south into a nice straight in wind. A few seconds into the tow I hit strong lift.

Zach hit it and went high and to the right. The weak link broke at around 150 feet or so and Zach stalled and dropped a wing or did a wingover, I couldn't tell. The glider tumbled too low for a deployment.

...before his u$hPa / Flight Park Mafia handlers were able to start getting things under control). Well over half a dozen years later and still nobody anywhere has the slightest fucking clue what really happened or anything that might have been done differently to keep it from happening. (All we know is that right after that one we rather abruptly stopped hearing about Standard Aerotow Weak Links. (And a short time later about weak links of any description.)

So let's wind the clock back and make you Pilot In Command of that one. A tenth of a second before Zack's Standard Aerotow Weak Link would've increased the safety of the towing operation you fix whatever was going on back there by giving him the rope. Does Zack land smelling like a rose with a perfectly timed flare and get a relight after giving your rope back to you?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC

As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.

Yeah, let's hear a bit more of your ol' buddy Ryan - who's never uttered a single syllable, one way or another, on your abrupt and permanent disappearance from the world of aviation - has to say on some of this stuff...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Ryan Voight - 2016/04/12 15:19:18 UTC

Technically, it's a high relative nose angle to the horizon, but NOT a high AofA... while on tow... but when the tow force is reduced, disappears, whatever... then it's suddenly a VERY high AofA.

Stationary winch towing CAN BE a very safe and practical method of teaching- both the "low and slow" style that we tend to associate with the term scooter towing, and also the use of a stationary winch to get students higher in order to practice things like setting up approaches, transitions to/from prone, etc... But even though both of those uses of a stationary winch involve very different tow methodology... NEITHER should ever employ such a drastically high nose angle... because weaklinks break, releases can open unexpectedly or accidently, engines can stall, whatever... and expecting a new pilot (or even a very experienced one!) to make such a drastic correction to nose angle, reacting quickly and within a very short window before it's too late... is a recipe for accidents.

Sounds like your ol' buddy has a pretty good grip on what happened.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

Totally revolutionary thinking. Good thing we muppets have pros like Ryan around to enlighten us. (A vanishing breed though, going the way of the Sage Grouse.) It now seems pretty obvious now that Zack simply failed to react quickly enough in the very short window he had available on that one.

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

Thirdly, experienced pilots should be aware that towing only from the shoulders reduces the effective pull-in available to prevent an over-the-top lockout. Like many pilots, I prefer the freedom of towing from the shoulders, but I am aware that I must react quicker to pitch excursion. Sometimes reactions aren't quick enough and emergency procedures must be followed. It seems to me that we shouldn't be overly eager to encourage lower airtime pilots to adopt this more advanced method of aerotowing.

Seems obvious to me that we need to be stressing reaction time a lot more when we're qualifying pilots for this more advanced method of aerotowing. Funny that never in the fourteen plus years since that report has u$hPa ever put anything on the books...

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2016/10/22
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
11. Hang Gliding Special Skill Endorsements
-A. Special Skills attainable by Novice
05. Aerotow

-f. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.

...in the way of addressing the speed issue.