Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

2019/06/17 04:00:00 UTC

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/7230
Towing question

Martin Henry - 2009/06/26 06:06:59 UTC

PS... you got to be careful mentioning weak link strengths around the forum, it can spark a civil war

The war was started long before your post, it's over, our team won. We didn't get what we wanted - which was a sane and competent implementation of hang and para gliding weak links as overload protectors - PERIOD - but we changed the global landscape to the point that you towing-operation-safety-increaser motherfuckers will never again be able to open your stupid yaps on the issue.

There are TONS of Tad-O-Links in circulation now and there's not a slightly bowed downtube worth of the carnage that was promised as the price of trading off safety for convenience.

The focal point of a safe towing system and you can't tell us anything about strength, material, what it's supposed to be doing for us, why nobody's visiting anybody in any hospitals as consequences of using dramatically less safe weak links than the ones everyone and his dog was flying under a decade ago. Any thoughts on looking around for a new safe towing system focal point?

- Hook knife maybe? Razor-sharp cutting tool you can use to slash through your lines in an instant? At least nobody's ever been inconvenienced by one.

- Pilot? Nah, his skills will inevitably fail him. And in aerotowing he's not a pilot anyway. Passenger of the Pilot In Command of the Dragonfly - rights and responsibilities as a skydiver. (I figured that one was pretty well understood in a flying community.)

Delayed posting content here 'cause I was using a reply to this "Weak links" thread to prep the new:

http://www.kitestrings.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=101
CHGA AT Weak Link War

archive and managed to click "Submit" instead of "Preview".

Zack C - 2010/11/23 05:23:34 UTC

In September of 2010, hang gliding safety activist Tad Eareckson entered a discussion on the Houston Hang Gliding & Paragliding Association's discussion group that would result in his being banned from the group within two months. But despite the controversy over Tad's 'arrogance' and 'condescending tone,' I was impressed by his knowledge, logic, and respect for science, which included a great deal of his own research and experimentation. My attempts to carry out a rational discussion with him were continually sabotaged and eventually aborted by other group members, many with little interest in or comprehension of the discussion.

EXACTLY the same pattern.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

Nah. Not a coincidence. This bullshit is orchestrated at the top.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3671
Forum Rules and Etiquette

Matthew Graham - 2008/12/12 14:22:04 UTC

The forums are for reasoned and respectful discussion and debate. Profanity, links to adult web sites, engaging in flame wars and direct personal attacks are not permitted. Any person violating these simple rules of etiquette will be first given a warning. If there is a second violation after the warning, the person's privileges to post topics and to reply will be revoked for a period of at least three months. If the violator is re-instated onto the forum after the suspension period and then commits a third violation, that person's privileges to post topics and to reply will be revoked permanently.

As Tad has been previously warned for use of profanity and then continued to use profanity in posts to the Hang Gliding Forum, his privileges to post topics and to reply has been revoked for a period of at least three months effective today December 12, 2008. After a period of three months, he may contact any member of the CHGPA Board of Directors and request permission to regain posting privileges.

Matthew Graham
VP/CHGPA

And here's Matthew's entrance:

Matthew Graham - 2008/10/29 03:32:52 UTC

Tad,
YOU ARE THE WEAKEST LINK!
Goodbye.

into the "Weak link question" thread the little shit's gonna lock after he bans me for incivility (counterattacking him and his fellow douchebag saboteurs).

List of CHGA forum participants in the threads extinct prior to 2019:

2009/11/15 02:25:49 UTC - Kurt Hirrlinger
2012/01/18 00:27:47 UTC - Allen Sparks
2012/08/21 00:01:21 UTC - Chris McKee
2013/06/16 19:12:43 UTC - Janni Papakrivos
2014/02/07 17:02:37 UTC - John Claytor
2014/05/30 03:10:55 UTC - Marc Fink
2014/10/29 13:27:23 UTC - Shawn Ray
2015/03/13 23:10:56 UTC - Tim Hinkel
2015/07/17 23:35:48 UTC - Gary Devan
2015/08/02 01:02:32 UTC - Lauren Tjaden
2016/07/18 22:10:10 UTC - Jim Rooney
2017/05/13 14:38:01 UTC - Dan Tomlinson
2017/08/18 14:29:40 UTC - Hugh McElrath
2018/10/09 15:22:40 UTC - Matthew Graham
2018/12/29 03:31:21 UTC - David Churchill

Not to mention:

2016/03/04 00:05:16 UTC - Highland Aerosports

The time stamps are the last indications of pulses.

Allen, as we all know, later came around to the Dark Side. Last Kite Strings appearance:
2016/07/15 18:48:17 UTC

John Claytor...

John Claytor - 2007/05/25 12:03:13 UTC

here is some raw statistics: I am about 215, loaded up harness 40 and fly a glider that weighs 85, 340 pounds total. I use the same weak link material as every body else, towing off of the shoulders with a weak link on both sides, equaling four starnds.

I break a weak link about once every two years. a little frayed is better in my way of thinking because I like my weak links weak.

If you are in the moderate range and breaking weak links all of the time, I am sorr friend but the evidence would point to technique, not inferior link material. If you are breaking these all of the time, you probably owe your health and safety to the system thay you may feel is failing.
...
Actually I like the weak link a little frayed. And all of us should be ready for the weak link break during every second of every tow. Its part of the launch.

Didn't break when it was supposed to at Ridgely on 2014/06/02. Got a reasonable facsimile of a broken neck instead. Career ender for all intents and purposes.

Lauren...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Lauren Tjaden - 2011/08/01 02:01:06 UTC

For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.

I rarely break weak links -- in fact, I believe the last one was some two years ago, and I have never broken one on a tandem (probably because I am light and also because I change them whenever they show any signs of wear). They are a good thing to have, though!!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


Not so much for that guy, though!! Fuckin' idiot.

Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney...

08-19
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5277/30076449505_1f6ed2f804_o.png


http://www.glenorchyair.co.nz/about-us/staff
Glenorchy Air Staff: A family run business since 1992

http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48077012101_18b0b06c06_o.png


He has one major shitload of history that he can't afford to have very widely publicized now that he's in a respectable flavor of aviation in which he can no longer pass himself off as the world's greatest authority on everything. Let's see what we can do.

[Tad Eareckson]

Regarding the archive - for any other really anal types out there...

31 individual authors (including a shitload of Rooney wannabe clones). Here they are in decreasing order of posts:

2007/05/16 12:53:34 UTC - 132 - Tad Eareckson
2007/05/20 17:25:27 UTC - 058 - Brian Vant-Hull
2007/05/19 01:43:49 UTC - 042 - Jim Rooney
2008/11/03 19:29:05 UTC - 035 - Janni Papakrivos
2007/05/17 14:06:06 UTC - 030 - Marc Fink
2007/07/17 13:33:25 UTC - 028 - Gary Devan
2007/07/17 18:59:48 UTC - 015 - Matthew Graham
2007/05/16 23:15:19 UTC - 009 - Danny Brotto
2007/05/16 14:57:36 UTC - 007 - Chris McKee
2007/06/01 01:57:11 UTC - 007 - Hugh McElrath
2007/06/03 00:47:16 UTC - 007 - Jim Rowan
2007/07/23 22:56:56 UTC - 006 - Bacil Dickert
2007/05/31 18:07:25 UTC - 005 - Cragin Shelton
2008/10/28 02:03:57 UTC - 005 - Kirk Lewis
2008/10/28 02:09:26 UTC - 005 - Kevin Carter
2007/05/21 18:18:18 UTC - 003 - Dan Tomlinson
2008/11/16 23:36:25 UTC - 003 - Shawn Ray
2008/11/20 22:50:53 UTC - 003 - Lauren Tjaden
2007/05/25 12:03:13 UTC - 002 - John Claytor
2007/07/23 14:31:10 UTC - 002 - Steve Kinsley
2008/11/11 20:18:07 UTC - 002 - David Bodner
2008/11/23 07:36:09 UTC - 002 - David Churchill
2008/11/26 01:33:33 UTC - 002 - Gene Towns
2007/05/21 18:44:42 UTC - 001 - Mike Lee
2007/05/30 03:31:24 UTC - 001 - Kurt Hirrlinger
2008/10/30 04:33:48 UTC - 001 - Mark Cavanaugh
2008/10/30 20:38:14 UTC - 001 - Tim Hinkel
2008/11/15 13:42:14 UTC - 001 - Jeff Eggers
2008/11/30 19:24:09 UTC - 001 - Carlos Weill
2008/12/06 14:29:33 UTC - 001 - Paul Tjaden
2008/12/09 01:25:18 UTC - 001 - Allen Sparks

I get a total of 418 from the middle column. But the total posts count I get is 419. Killed most of yesterday trying to get those two figures to match and went half blind. A month of free access to Kite Strings to anyone who can put the issue to rest.
---
2019/09/06 21:00:00 UTC - Amendment

I've found some really important prequel stuff from 2005 and have amended the archive accordingly. 53 additional posts from four 2005 threads by eighteen authors - eleven of whom will reappear and seven of whom won't. New total: 471 or 472. New material ordered as above:

2005/03/05 02:24:13 UTC - 008 - Hugh McElrath
2005/03/05 16:44:12 UTC - 008 - Tad Eareckson
2005/03/05 17:11:22 UTC - 006 - Brian Vant-Hull
2005/08/25 13:18:56 UTC - 005 - Scott Wilkinson
2005/03/08 03:41:20 UTC - 004 - Jim Rooney
2005/08/25 13:36:00 UTC - 004 - Chris McKee
2005/08/26 18:40:26 UTC - 003 - Marc Fink
2005/03/05 00:37:37 UTC - 002 - Lauren Tjaden
2005/08/25 13:29:58 UTC - 002 - Matthew Graham
2005/08/25 13:51:22 UTC - 002 - Linda Baskerville
2005/08/25 16:53:03 UTC - 002 - Cragin Shelton
2005/03/05 18:20:47 UTC - 001 - Paul Adamez
2005/03/11 02:43:09 UTC - 001 - Steve Kinsley
2005/08/25 14:25:17 UTC - 001 - Dave Rice
2005/08/26 14:28:42 UTC - 001 - Daniel Broxterman
2005/08/26 17:55:48 UTC - 001 - Rance Rupp
2005/08/27 02:11:56 UTC - 001 - John Simon
2005/08/31 00:33:01 UTC - 001 - Dan Tomlinson
---
And speaking of corrections... One nice thing about having this archive is that I can go back and fix the typos and mistakes, clarify the language of my posts. Whereas in the bulk of this material the CHGA forum douchebags-in-good-standing can't 'cause the topics are locked.

But note that where I've gotten stuff wrong - and there's plenty I did from these discussions (like I still had Donnell up on a pedestal way beyond his actual merit back then) I'll never tweak the meaning, intent of the post. And in this case one is still free to check against the source material.
---
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=358
finally!

Lauren Tjaden - 2005/04/10 02:47:49 UTC

Pop! My weak link broke, and I involuntarily shuddered. The last time this happened, I found myself in a severe stall followed by an uncontrolled slipping dive, and brushed close to the ground before I recovered. But my visualization of what to do in this situation helped, because I pulled in so hard and fast Griffin's nose barely had time to rise. Hurray!

Soon I had a new weak link attached and ventured into the sky again. I had dreams of flying to Wallaby, but I found only rat-sh** lift, weak and broken, and never got about 2700.

Actually, there was one exception, when I flew into the nastiest thermal I have ever ridden. It screamed upwards at 700 fpm, but only for maybe a minute, and it pulled my pitch so high I dove sideways a couple of times. I have no idea of where it came from or went. The air was rough, but I have never been in anything like that demon thermal before. After 45 minutes of scratching, I decked it.

Conditions started to look better when Jamie called, needing a ride. Jamie is the guy who spent 9 hours or so on Wednesday picking up Paul, Jim, and I, plus hiking out my harness and glider with me for over a mile. It didn't seem fair to tell him it was too bad, I wanted to fly, but that hitchhiking might work. Daniel Broxterman's father, Bert, saved the day when I begged him to take our truck and go fetch Jamie.

The rest was easy. I towed into much smoother conditions, with soft thermals that often lifted as fast as 500 fpm. I found a trail of clouds to follow, and aimed for Wallaby. I flew by myself and listened to Griffin. I flew by the field that I got to on my little out and back, and then over Seminole glider port. I jogged sideways to another likely looking street, watching the miles tick off. I got there at over 5000 feet and managed a perfect landing in front of a zillion people. Woo hoo!

And guess what? ALEK flew there too -- his first XC! Wills Wing was having this huge party with a band and BBQ. We hung out and had cocktails with John Middleton, Bob, Raean and Fred P, Mike Barbor, etc. So many old friends. I met Linda S from NY, too. John, a pilot from NY who is doing the clinic this week with me, gave us a ride to Quest after an hour or two. I met Paul back at Quest but we both felt too whipped to go back to Wallaby and celebrate.

Paul flew a 70 mile triangle. This boy goes from strength to strength.

Pop! My weak link broke...

And we note you're not saying that anything was going on at the moment. Normal tow, everything's going just fine, you and your glider don't weigh shit (see below), and Pop! Your weak link breaks.

...and I involuntarily shuddered.

You SHUDDERED? In response to an INCREASE in the safety of the towing operation? A mere inconvenience at the very worst? Me... I always involuntarily shudder whenever I've made it all the way up to wave-off altitude. The thought of having just flown something that's just demonstrated pretty definitively that it WON'T break before I can get into too much trouble totally creeps me out. Same weak link that's killed folk like Mike Haas, Roy Messing, Steve Elliot; partially killed John Claytor. Sounds to me like you're making more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

The last time this happened...

Half an hour before? (And expecting different results.)

I found myself in a severe stall...

No you didn't. You found yourself in a mild inconvenience.

...followed by an uncontrolled slipping dive...

Good thing you weren't still in the severe stall. With an uncontrolled slipping dive you always have the option to control it.

...and brushed close to the ground before I recovered.

So you were just holding the bar out before that point? Then you figured it would be a good idea to recover?

But my visualization of what to do in this situation helped...

Gee, wish I'd known about visualization. Whenever I got stalled in Jockey's Ridge South Bowl trash I'd just stuff the bar. And I'd save the visualization part for when I was packing up the glider.

...because I pulled in so hard and fast Griffin's nose barely had time to rise.

The nose doesn't rise. Your angle of attack instantly goes way the fuck up due to the instantaneous increase in the safety of the towing operation...

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...



Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

...but your nose immediately starts DROPPING. (Idiot.)

Hurray!

Woohoo! You go girl!

Soon I had a new weak link attached and...

...decided to do the same thing over again expecting even better results. (See "(Idiot.)" above.)

...ventured into the sky again. I had dreams of flying to Wallaby, but I found only rat-sh** lift, weak and broken, and never got about 2700.

Aren't you gonna tell us about the flying technique you employed to prevent another increase in the safety of the towing operation?

Actually, there was one exception, when I flew into the nastiest thermal I have ever ridden. It screamed upwards at 700 fpm, but only for maybe a minute, and it pulled my pitch so high I dove sideways a couple of times. I have no idea of where it came from or went.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flyhg/message/17223
Pilot's Hotline winter flying

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/03 13:41

Yesterday was a light and variable day with expected good lift. Zach was the second tow of the afternoon. We launched to the south into a nice straight in wind. A few seconds into the tow I hit strong lift.

Zach hit it and went high and to the right. The weak link broke at around 150 feet or so and Zach stalled and dropped a wing or did a wingover, I couldn't tell. The glider tumbled too low for a deployment.

It came from the ground. That's where the air gets heated up due to the solar heating of the surface. AT pilots seem to have a huge degree of trouble understanding this concept and its implications.

The air was rough, but I have never been in anything like that demon thermal before. After 45 minutes of scratching, I decked it.

...Daniel Broxterman...Jamie...managed a perfect landing in front of a zillion people...ALEK...Wills Wing was having this huge party...John Middleton...Bob...Raean and Fred P...Mike Barbor, etc. So many old friends. I met Linda S from NY, too. John, a pilot from NY...Paul...

And all those fucking assholes were perfectly OK with what you were doing. We've got another half dozen years of this bullshit before:
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

Lauren Tjaden - 2003/12/14

This fall at Ridgely, I had a weak link break at maybe fifty feet. I thought I was going to have to land in the soybeans - the very tall soybeans - when I looked at my angle. But, my glider stalled quite dramatically almost instantly (hard not to stall when you have a break), and dove towards the ground (a bit disconcerting from so low).

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Lauren Tjaden - 2011/08/01 02:01:06 UTC

I rarely break weak links -- in fact, I believe the last one was some two years ago, and I have never broken one on a tandem (probably because I am light and also because I change them whenever they show any signs of wear). They are a good thing to have, though!!

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

William Olive - 2013/02/27 20:55:06 UTC

Like the rest of us, you have no idea what really happened on that tow.
We probably never will know.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/28 01:17:55 UTC

Well said Billo
I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.

Ah but hg'ers get so uppity when you tell them not to speculate.

If they're such a good thing to have, though!! then how come you change them whenever they show any signs of wear? Don't they just keep getting better and better at increasing the safety of the towing operation until they max it out in the manners you've frequently described?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 01:32:20 UTC

Btw, it's nothing to do with you "counting" on the weaklink breaking... Its about me not trusting you to hit the release.
If it were only about what you want, then you could use what you like.
You want the strongest weaklink you can have.
I want you to have the weakest one practical.. I don't care how much it inconveniences you.
I don't trust you as a rule. You Trust you , but I don't and shouldn't.

Aren't you really just trading off safety for convenience? To a much greater extent than we high hookup weight guys would be doing?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hhpa/message/9360
Hook knives and other inventions

Zack C - 2010/02/03 21:07

His main two points are that the standard weak link we use for aerotowing is too weak and that our releases suck. We've been discussing surface tow weak links, but I don't think he criticizes these (he does say it is not sensible that we use stronger weak links for surface towing than aerotowing).

I've had weak links break on aerotows for seemingly no reason a number of times. I feel that this is dangerous and am suspicious of the wisdom of using 130 lb Cortland Greenspot for every pilot in every configuration.

There's no way in hell that can make the slightest degree of sense. And if it's TOLERATED by the sport then you HAVE TO conclude that the entire sport is total crap. And it's not just tolerated - it's brutally defended and enforced. And watch the near universal response to the handful of folk so bold as to dissent.

Zack C - 2012/06/02 02:20:45 UTC

I just cannot fathom how our sport can be so screwed up.

Didn't take ya all that long to reach that conclusion, did it?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Brad Gryder - 2011/08/25 00:04:50 UTC

But in actual practice, especially at a busy flight park, the tug monkey has limited time to maintain his "Master" weak link at 100%, so it will degrade in strength until he finds time to replace it. Same is true for the busy tandem monkey, so it's a statistical game as to when the tug's weak link might eventually fail before the gilder's.

The rear monkey, keen on survival, is aware of this and is ready to accept it (the rope) when it happens.

The Tug Pilot is responsible for his weak link and must manage it accordingly. Same for the other end. They both must be prepared for the worst while hoping for better.

But in actual practice, especially at a busy flight park, the tug monkey has limited time to maintain his "Master" weak link at 100%, so it will degrade in strength until he finds time to replace it. Same is true for the busy tandem monkey, so it's a statistical game as to when the tug's weak link might eventually fail before the gilder's.

Yeah dickhead? Let's take a look at how things go over at an extraordinarily busy flight park when the fuckin' front ender monkeys are extraordinarily incompetent and negligent at doing their fuckin' jobs.

Participants...

- Davis Straub, who's been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who and was the beneficiary of one of these increases in the safety of the towing operation.

- At least two, maybe three tug drivers:

-- Bart Weghorst, who doesn't give a shit about breaking strength anymore, doesn't care what the numbers are, just wants his to break every once in a while. (Got some bad news for ya, Bart... Your weak link can only break once. Assuming you survive the increase in the safety of the towing operation better than Zack Marzec did you'll need to get another one to give it another try.

-- Jim Rooney, the most keenly intellectual tug pilot ever strapped himself in to the awesome full-on firebreathing monstrous glory that is the 914 . (Did a whole lot better strapping himself in to 914s than he did to hang gliders.)

-- Craig Williamson was from the Williamson clan. Father or uncle was John Williamson - and, having really read and thought about this one, I'm pretty sure it was John Williamson who was driving the Dragonfly that lost the rope in the incident discussed below. They were longtime friends of Bill Moyes and ran a private Dragonfly AT operation at their farm a bit north of Church Hill and a bit under sixteen miles NNW of Ridgely. Helped out with Ridgely comps. I liked Craig - talks a lot more competently than he writes. Can't say for sure whether or not he was ever a front ender.

- Several (other) wastes of space.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2808
Weaklink Break

Davis Straub - 2006/06/15 12:46:29 UTC

The tug's weaklink breaks as I come off the cart.

http://ozreport.com/10.116
East Coast Championship - Day/Task 1

Davis Straub - 2006/06/06 03:25:32 UTC

Bo was off first and I was a pilot or two behind him. Just as I came off the cart the rope detached from the tow plane (not one of the regular Dragonflys) and I was floating along one foot off the ground. It felt to me that I was in for a skidder. Then suddenly I popped up a couple of feet (prop wash?) and I could get up on the down tubes and run it in. I told them to give me any other tug, but that one.

On the second day of the ECC competition just as I came off the cart the tow line went slack when it came detached from the tug (but not from me). You can see what happened then as Jim Rooney filmed it. You can find the results on video here. Or even better in the key frames here.



Flying a foot or so off the ground on the base tube pushing out was pretty interesting, all with a good ending.

Acmeaviator - 2006/06/16 14:02:47 UTC

You the MAN! I like to think that I would react as smoothly and skillfully were I in that situation - truthfully I'd have most likely pounded in hard

David Giles - 2006/06/16 15:20:02 UTC

Nice quick reflexes Davis!

This past weekend I had almost the exact same thing happen to me at Lookout, except that it was MY weaklink that broke coming off the cart. I didn't feel like I could get upright in my harness fast enough to pull off a flare (fairly new harness for me), so I just slid in on my belly. Not as pretty as your landing, but fortunately the ATOS slides in on the basetube quite nicely when the ground is reasonably smooth.

Gerry Grossnegger - 2006/06/16 20:26:15 UTC

If you get the right frame, you can actually see the tow rope going slack, but still hanging in the air:

Christian Williams - 2006/06/16 20:33:53 UTC

What was the probable cause of the weaklink break?

Bart Weghorst - 2006/06/16 20:49:25 UTC

Tug pilots pitch their prop for maximum thrust at towing speeds.
So when the tug gets close to the speed at which it normally climbs out, the prop suddenly becomes much more effective.
This is when the accelleration is at it's maximum.
Unfortunately that's also when the glider just comes out of the cart.
It is good skill if you can pull off a good landing at that time.
Think about it:
You're in the propwash, in groud effect and possibly also up several feet in the windgradient.
Feet in the harness, sometimes VG on and some have no wheels.
Good flying!

Davis Straub - 2006/06/17 02:32:58 UTC

The bridle may have just come undone. Don't really know if the weaklink broke or not. I was the first tow of the day for this tug.

Craig Williamson - 2006/06/17 04:50:39 UTC

re; weaklink break

I spoke to the tug pilot that towed you and asked him about the weeklink break he said it was not the weeklink but the tow line it had been tied and came untied this was not the tow pilots tow line and not his equipment that failed as you led me to believe in your original post /story about the incident when you said you asked for a different tug the next flight. for give me if this was not your intention and Irelise you were not aware of the cause at the time. But the tug pilot in question is very careful with his equipment and takes very good care of it the tug is one of the oldest tugs flyimg if not the oldest with the original engine. though it doesn't have the hours that many have because it is not used at a tow park

Davis Straub - 2006/06/17 12:43:23 UTC

he said it was not the weeklink but the tow line it had been tied and came untied this was not the tow pilots tow line

I don't understand the sentence above.

I towed behind this tug later. No worries.

When you have something like this happen to you, the first thing you want to avoid is it happening again, no matter what the actual or proximate cause. Avoiding that tug for a while seemed prudent.

I wonder who was responsible for the tow line coming undone.

Craig Williamson - 2006/06/17 13:56:40 UTC

Post weaklink break

the tow line was provided by the tow park apparently it had been cut or broken previously and had been tied don't know who tied it

Davis Straub - 2006/06/17 14:24:18 UTC

Communication, what a difficult art.

The tow line was provided by the tow park. Apparently it had been cut or broken previously and had been tied. I don't know who tied it.

I assume that you meant that the tow line had been "spliced" and that the splice had come undone.

Thanks.

Craig Williamson - 2006/06/17 14:33:50 UTC

Post weaklnk break

I would have spliced the tug pilot would have spliced he said tied not sure if he meant spliced and not sure who reconected it

Davis Straub - 2006/06/17 15:15:56 UTC

thanksagainshowingthedifficultyofcommunication
especiallywithoutpunctuationorcapitalization
dontmeantoberudebutiwasjusthavingahardtimefollowingwhatyouweresaying

Steven Rickert - 2006/06/17 21:48:09 UTC

Post Weaklink Break

Perhaps someone has typoglycemia.
---
I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid. Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer inwaht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt.

Check out Wikepedia for hte flul oppo, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typoglycemia

Jim Rooney - 2006/06/18 14:31:22 UTC

The tow line was two pieces of spectra spliced together. The splice didn't hold and the line seperated.

If you're curious or unfamiliar with the types of splices used, check out your bridal ends... the loops are formed by a splice. Normally splices involve a twisting weave to ensure the splice holds. There was question as to how much weave was used and how close of a weave, etc.

They either switched out the line or knotted the line after it failed... probably both.
It was impressive to watch quick reactions have such a positive outcome... nice work Davis.

Funny that:

- you're nowhere to be found making everybody understand what a total nonevent this one was

- not one of the nine individuals in participating in this discussion dismisses this incident as a nonevent

- three of the nine individuals in participating in this discussion heap praises on Davis for exercising the masterful skill required to survive this increase in the safety of the towing operation unscathed

- while we have a report of a Davis Link putting its passenger in EXACTLY the same increased safety situation as Davis (note that the towline draped over the control bar is NEVER ONCE mentioned as a major potential issue by anyone (and also note that the dope with the rope has no means whatsoever of dumping it (which is probably WHY that elephant in the room his been handed an invisibility cloak))) it remains the total nonevent it always has been and always will be.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12682
Landing on your feet (for AEROTOW)- So Dangerous

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/06/29 14:26:26 UTC

OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!?
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!!

I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for sh*t.... LEARN TO LAND That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh???

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Brad Gryder - 2011/08/25 00:04:50 UTC

But in actual practice, especially at a busy flight park, the tug monkey has limited time to maintain his "Master" weak link at 100%, so it will degrade in strength until he finds time to replace it. Same is true for the busy tandem monkey, so it's a statistical game as to when the tug's weak link might eventually fail before the gilder's.

The rear monkey, keen on survival, is aware of this and is ready to accept it (the rope) when it happens.

The Tug Pilot is responsible for his weak link and must manage it accordingly. Same for the other end. They both must be prepared for the worst while hoping for better.

But in actual practice, especially at a busy flight park, the tug monkey has limited time to maintain his "Master" weak link at 100%, so it will degrade in strength until he finds time to replace it.

- Will it?

-- I make weak links that will never degrade unless they're pushed to the ragged edges of their ratings. And if you're making any facsimile of a half assed effort to comply with FAA regs and u$hPa SOPs - using a front end weak link ten or twenty percent heavier than the back (which none of you fuckin' douchebags make the slightest effort to actually do) it's impossible to stress the front end.

-- Tost makes weak links they recommend replacing after 200 pulls. And no Dragonfly ever has or ever will run 200 pulls in a day. Plus they don't present any data showing that a 201 pull weak link is two pounds weaker (safer) than a virgin one. So I think that's probably just ass covering.

-- I don't think any flight parks ever replace any front end weak links unless they show wear. And I've never seen a front end weak link:
--- that showed any signs of wear
--- being changed on a flight line

- I guess ya don't have time to refuel either. Just keep running the tug until the engine increases the safety of the towing operation and you deadstick it back to the runway for an uneventful landing by the fuel pump.

And of course there are NEVER any idle bodies hanging around the flight line capable of installing a new weak link. Never any cart monkeys not busy looking for inappropriate bridles and weak links, having opportunities to make sure the tug's using a suitably inappropriate weak link. Ditto for glider pilots baking in line while the downed Davis Linkers keep getting cuts back to the head of it.

Same is true for the busy tandem monkey, so it's a statistical game as to when the tug's weak link might eventually fail before the gilder's.

Sure. Everybody's got TONS of time for...

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble

Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.

...restaging, relaunches, refueling. towline retrievals, oil changes, extra maintenance groundings, engine rebuilds; nobody's got time to put a fresh loop of fishing line on the end of a bridle in the morning before taxiing out to the runway.

(Florida Ridge is still listing thirty bucks as the cost of getting a solo tow up to fifty feet.)

The rear monkey, keen on survival, is aware of this and is ready to accept it (the rope) when it happens.

Yeah...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

We've all signed waivers to that effect so you're good speaking for 100.00 percent of us.

The Tug Pilot is responsible for his weak link...

I wish just one of you motherfuckers would be held legally responsible for the carnage his shit excuse for a weak link has caused.

...and must manage it accordingly.

Whenever he finds the time to dedicate to this burdensome task.

Same for the other end. They both must be prepared for the worst while hoping for better.

- Ya know how you start preparing for the worst, douchebag? You preflight your goddam aircraft to make sure it's up to the task it's about to take on. You don't, yours isn't, you've got no fuckin' business being anywhere NEAR any flavor of aviation.

- Statistically the worst thing that can happen to a towed glider...

Ridgerodent:
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release."- Richard Johnson

...is a rope break rope break or a premature release. And then we've got:

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett

You're a flying bad pin man and I'm never again getting anywhere near assholes like you.

If there's the slightest possibility of a rope break or premature release in soaring conditions only a total moron would get on a cart - even if people DO get away with them unscathed 99.9 percent of the time.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2808
Weaklink Break

Davis Straub - 2006/06/15 12:46:29 UTC

The tug's weaklink breaks as I come off the cart.

http://ozreport.com/10.116
East Coast Championship - Day/Task 1

Davis Straub - 2006/06/06 03:25:32 UTC

Bo was off first and I was a pilot or two behind him. Just as I came off the cart the rope detached from the tow plane (not one of the regular Dragonflys) and I was floating along one foot off the ground. It felt to me that I was in for a skidder. Then suddenly I popped up a couple of feet (prop wash?) and I could get up on the down tubes and run it in. I told them to give me any other tug, but that one.

On the second day of the ECC competition just as I came off the cart the tow line went slack when it came detached from the tug (but not from me). You can see what happened then as Jim Rooney filmed it. You can find the results on video here. Or even better in the key frames here.



Flying a foot or so off the ground on the base tube pushing out was pretty interesting, all with a good ending.

The tug's weaklink breaks as I come off the cart.

Really? The way your Davis Link increases the safety of the towing operation as you come off the cart on this one?:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27425
Why we love wheels

Davis Straub - 2012/04/18 03:14:16 UTC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZbvzqjcowY

06-0700
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8502/28996306053_8daf5cca06_o.png

07-0701
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8630/28996305043_06aa4826fa_o.png

08-0706
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8479/28996303943_ca3a0be282_o.png


How come the 2006 edition is all about what a dangerous incompetent douchebag your tug driver was and the one a dozen years later (when you're launching off of concrete) is all about how great wheels are at increasing the safety of the towing operation right after your mandatory Davis Link increasing the safety of the towing operation?

Bo was off first...

Bo? THE Bo? The legendary Bo Hagewood...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

I don't tow solos under full power... you could't keep up with me if I did. I wouldn't be going faster horizontally, but my acceleration and climb rate would be so extreme that most pilots couldn't keep up the timing needed to make it work. (I think Bo's the only one I've successfully towed at full boost)

...who's the only pilot with the requisite timing to be able to handle the extreme acceleration and climb rate of Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's 914 at full boost?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Davis Straub - 2014/09/01 15:22:41 UTC

I can tell you that I fly with a 200lb weaklink on one side of my 750lb pro tow bridle. I am happy with it.

...and I was a pilot or two behind him. Just as I came off the cart the rope detached from the tow plane (not one of the regular Dragonflys) and I was floating along one foot off the ground.

- With no wheels or skids. What a total bitch that must have been.

- Floating along a foot off the ground? And here I was thinking that we're supposed to stay on the cart long enough to attain the airspeed necessary to deal with increases in the safety of the towing operation and other such emergencies. But what do I know? You're the one who's been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.

It felt to me that I was in for a skidder.

Any chance you could've managed another one of these?:


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


That would've been so much more entertaining.

Then suddenly I popped up a couple of feet (prop wash?)

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27494
The exciting bits

Jim Rooney - 2012/05/28 11:49:58 UTC

Guys
Your questions hold the answers.

What you're writing about and what your seeing are two very different things.
Your theories are what are doing you in.

What you're talking about is coming out of the cart too early and not having enough flying speed.
What you're watching is Davis coming out of the cart at Mach5.
He is absolutely no where near coming out too slow!

I've said it before, I'll say it a million times... a 582 tug is NOT the same thing as a 914.
Using 582 techniques on a 914 will put you in the shit.

All this "hang onto the cart till it's flying" stuff is fine for 582s. It is NOT for 914s.
Why?
In a word... propwash.

I'm not kidding.
It amazes me how people underappreciate the propwash. It's an afterthough... a footnote.
Let me tell ya guys... on a 914, it's the #1 factor when you leave that damn cart.
You SLAM into that propwash.

I'm towing out here in the desert at the moment. Out here, like it or not, you get to see the propwash. You see it in a big way. Even when we're towing on the pavement, you get to see it. It sucks and you know exactly where it is... because it's a big old cloud of dust and rocks. We insist on our passengers wearing glasses because of it (we provide them if they don't have their own).

Crosswinds of course make a huge difference. But again, we see the propwash... it's clear as day. Sometimes we can even steer around it (that's an other topic though).

The reason I make such a big deal about the difference between the 582s and the 914s is because behind a 582, you're still on the ground when you hit the propwash. You're rolling on the cart and you roll right on through it. No big deal.

So when you "wait till you're lifting the cart"... you're WELL BEYOND the propwash.
When you exit at Mach5, it's no big deal.

Now, when you do this behind a 914... it's a huge deal.
As I said, you slam into the prop wash.

And you're wondering why you're breaking weaklinks????
Are you kidding me?

Think about it... you're going a million miles an hour under huge (relatively speaking) line tension as you come blazing out of the cart struggling to "stay down"... as you slam into turbulent air. Hell yes you're going to break weaklinks. That's what they're there for!
You're subjecting them to massive loadings.
(The shock loading a weaklink sees as you hit the propwash is far greater than people appreciate)
That's why we have them... they're doing their job.

...and I could get up on the down tubes and run it in.

Such aeronautical brilliance. A muppet such as myself would NEVER have thought of flying into the prop wash to gain the airspeed I'd have had if I'd have stayed on the cart an extra 1.5 seconds and in order to be able to pull off a running landing.

I told them to give me any other tug, but that one.

And let the Hang 3 muppets deal with this asshole instead. Your concern for your fellow pilots is really touching, Davis.

On the second day of the ECC competition just as I came off the cart the tow line went slack when it came detached from the tug (but not from me).

But not from you? So how come you didn't just dump it?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1143
Death at Tocumwal

Davis Straub - 2006/01/24 12:27:32 UTC

Bill Moyes argues that you should not have to move your hand from the base bar to release. That is because your natural inclination is to continue to hold onto the base bar in tough conditions and to try to fly the glider when you should be releasing.

I guess it was because your natural inclination was to continue to hold onto the base bar in those tough conditions and to try to fly the glider when you should've been releasing.

Davis Straub - 2006/01/24 12:27:32 UTC

I'm willing to put the barrel release within a few inches of my hand.

You can see what happened then as Jim Rooney filmed it.

So Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney was neither flying a tug nor competing. Interesting. Guess he wasn't competing 'cause he didn't wanna totally humiliate all the top guns.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2808
Weaklink Break

Acmeaviator - 2006/06/16 14:02:47 UTC

You the MAN! I like to think that I would react as smoothly and skillfully were I in that situation...

Yeah, that was totally brilliant the way he got popped up a couple feet by a blast of prop wash and got enough airspeed to run out a landing. Hard for us mere mortals to imagine that level of performance.

...truthfully...

In stark contrast to what you wrote earlier in the sentence?

...I'd have most likely pounded in hard

And thanks bigtime for all the help you gave us when we were fighting tooth and nail to get those goddam Davis Links permanently out of circulation.

David Giles - 2006/06/16 15:20:02 UTC

Nice quick reflexes Davis!

Really astounding when you consider...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25015
Zippy pounds in

Davis Straub - 2011/09/02 18:37:09 UTC

Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.

...all that horrible permanent brain damage he sustained in junior high back in the Sixties.

This past weekend I had almost the exact same thing happen to me at Lookout, except that it was MY weaklink that broke coming off the cart.

Well then... It was just a routine inconvenience that happens all the fuckin' time. EXACT SAME THING? I don't think so. Davis experienced an extremely serious incident. All you had was a bit of inconvenience.

I didn't feel like I could get upright in my harness fast enough to pull off a flare...

And how could anyone POSSIBLY ever land a hang glider prone in his harness?

...(fairly new harness for me), so I just slid in on my belly.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

Not as pretty as your landing, but fortunately the ATOS slides in on the basetube quite nicely when the ground is reasonably smooth.

- And perish the thought that you should fly with and land using...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26854
Skids versus wheels

Andrew Stakhov - 2012/08/11 13:52:35 UTC

So I just came back from flying in Austria (awesome place btw). Stark difference I noticed is a large chunk of pilots choose to fly with skids instead of wheels. Conversations I had with pilots they say they actually work better in certain situations as they don't get plugged up like smaller wheels. Even larger heavier Atosses were all flying with skids. I was curious why they consistently chose to land on skids on those expensive machines and they were saying that it's just not worth the risk of a mistimed flare or wing hitting the ground... And those are all carbon frames etc.

...actual skids.

- But of course we virtually never land on reasonably smooth ground. About 95 percent of the time we land in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place.

Gerry Grossnegger - 2006/06/16 20:26:15 UTC

If you get the right frame, you can actually see the tow rope going slack, but still hanging in the air:

Oh please do take that photo down, Gerry. The sight of a tow rope going slack that close to the deck is almost more horror than I can take. The documentation of the carnage we experience as consequences of these types of incidents is totally overwhelming. Take this scenario for example:

17-1821
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/962/40373978690_9aef9ff7ca_o.png


Need one say any more?

Christian Williams - 2006/06/16 20:33:53 UTC

What was the probable cause of the weaklink break?

I think it was probably caused by the towline pressure rising to just over the maximum PSIs the weak link could withstand. But that's just theory.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

Doesn't necessarily hold when reality rears its ugly head.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2808
Weaklink Break

Bart Weghorst - 2006/06/16 20:49:25 UTC

Tug pilots pitch their prop for maximum thrust at towing speeds.
So when the tug gets close to the speed at which it normally climbs out, the prop suddenly becomes much more effective.
This is when the accelleration is at it's maximum.
Unfortunately that's also when the glider just comes out of the cart.
It is good skill if you can pull off a good landing at that time.
Think about it:
You're in the propwash, in groud effect and possibly also up several feet in the windgradient.
Feet in the harness, sometimes VG on and some have no wheels.
Good flying!

Tug pilots pitch their prop for maximum thrust at towing speeds.

- Big fuckin' surprise.

- Really? Isn't that just BEGGING...

Jerry Forburger - 1990/10

High line tensions reduce the pilot's ability to control the glider and we all know that the killer "lockout" is caused by high towline tension.

...for a lockout incident?

So when the tug gets close to the speed at which it normally climbs out, the prop suddenly becomes much more effective.

Nice to know that we have SOMETHING effective at that end of the rope.

This is when the accelleration is at it's maximum.
Unfortunately that's also when the glider just comes out of the cart.

Bullshit. (Two spelling mistakes in that (first) nine word sentence by the way, Bart. I'll let you slide on "it's" but not on the other one.)

I experimentally measured what was going on with towline tension at Ridgely a million years ago. Acceleration is the rate of increase in speed, it's directly proportional to rate of increase in the towline tension and in a controlled tow to altitude with no nasty turbulence issues that's ALWAYS gonna be when the cart first starts rolling. Every Iditarod dog musher knows this. When the glider's lifting out of the cart and the tug's lifting off the runway the rates of changes of speeds and tensions are smooth and gradual.

That's not necessarily when your Standard Aerotow Weak Link's gonna blow but that's likely to be what's most stressing and degrading your magic loop of long track record precision fishing line. (Note that Safe Working Loads are generally specified at around half of breaking strengths. (Also note the word SAFE in the previous sentence.))

But OK, let's take this whole statement:

Tug pilots pitch their prop for maximum thrust at towing speeds.
So when the tug gets close to the speed at which it normally climbs out, the prop suddenly becomes much more effective.
This is when the accelleration is at it's maximum.
Unfortunately that's also when the glider just comes out of the cart.
It is good skill if you can pull off a good landing at that time.
Think about it:
You're in the propwash, in groud effect and possibly also up several feet in the windgradient.
Feet in the harness, sometimes VG on and some have no wheels.

at face value. It's got bits of legitimacy here and there.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Bart Weghorst - 2011/08/28 20:29:27 UTC

Now I don't give a shit about breaking strength anymore. I really don't care what the numbers are. I just want my weaklink to break every once in a while.

So where's your weak link most likely to break every once in a while and what are the consequences most likely to be - asshole?

Feet in the harness, sometimes VG on and some have no wheels.

Fuck anybody who doesn't have wheels or reasonable facsimilies.

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

They get EXACTLY what they deserve. And show me the AT op that's made wheels mandatory and Standard Aerotow Weak Links optional.

Good flying!

Good freakin' LUCK. 'Cause that what you assholes are gonna need to get any.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2808
Weaklink Break

Davis Straub - 2006/06/17 02:32:58 UTC

The bridle may have just come undone. Don't really know if the weaklink broke or not. I was the first tow of the day for this tug.

Oh. The incident was 2006/06/05. And now - eleven days and seven posts later - we're just getting around to thinking about what it was that actually blew. Maybe the bridle - a component that ISN'T designed to break.

Craig Williamson - 2006/06/17 04:50:39 UTC

re; weaklink break

I spoke to the tug pilot that towed you and asked him about the weeklink break he said it was not the weeklink but the tow line it had been tied and came untied this was not the tow pilots tow line and not his equipment that failed as you led me to believe in your original post /story about the incident when you said you asked for a different tug the next flight. for give me if this was not your intention and Irelise you were not aware of the cause at the time. But the tug pilot in question is very careful with his equipment and takes very good care of it the tug is one of the oldest tugs flyimg if not the oldest with the original engine. though it doesn't have the hours that many have because it is not used at a tow park

- So if the tug driver (John Williamson) was so totally fucking blameless then how come he's not being identified?

- Yeah, when that towline was hooked up to his Dragonfly it was HIS fuckin' towline. He was the Pilot In Command and responsible for all the equipment with which he was taking off and landing. When he disconnected the line it reverted to being Highland Aerosports' towline. In a better world he should've been able to trust the Highland Aerosports motherfuckers but by that point even Yours Truly had long before started realizing that they couldn't be.

- Seems he was aware enough of the cause to start running his mouth about it.

- So if this very careful tug pilot in question is so careful with his equipment then how does he feel about flying with a tow mast breakaway designed to fail at the same tension as a Standard Tandem Aerotow Weak Link? And does he bother to put another weak link on the bridle BELOW the tow ring to prevent idiot bullshit like:

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

I witnessed a tug pilot descend low over trees. His towline hit the trees and caught. His weak link broke but the bridle whipped around the towline and held it fast. The pilot was saved by the fact that the towline broke!

from happening?

Davis Straub - 2006/06/17 12:43:23 UTC

he said it was not the weeklink but the tow line it had been tied and came untied this was not the tow pilots tow line

I don't understand the sentence above.

I towed behind this tug later. No worries.

Great, Davis. Whenever I tow behind a tug I worry about - and am prepared to handle - everything no matter who's driving. Everything other than some mindless front end entity fixing anything that's going on back there by giving me the rope, anyway. And since I couldn't do anything about that aspect I eventually decided it wasn't worth it.

When you have something like this happen to you, the first thing you want to avoid is it happening again...

- Something LIKE this? Would the success of a mandatory Davis Link be considered something like this?
- Hard to argue with that logic.
- The first thing you want to avoid is it happening again TO YOU. And fuck everybody else flying in the comp. That's their problem.

...no matter what the actual or proximate cause.

You probably don't wanna venture too far down the road, Davis.

And how 'bout when something like that happens to Zack Marzec?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


Entirely and solely because he was using one of your appropriate bridles in combination with one of your appropriate Davis Links? Do we want to do anything to avoid THAT happening again?

Avoiding that tug for a while seemed prudent.

- Yeah, sounds a lot like:

http://ozreport.com/9.009
2005 Worlds

Davis Straub - 2005/01/11

This type of release mechanism has been banned (at least for a short while) from the Worlds at Hay.

from you at the beginning of the previous year. Avoiding the tug for a while, banning this type of release mechanism (at least for a short while) from the Worlds at Hay. Be prudent for a while then you're good to go again.

Me? If I had to fly with you motherfuckers I wouldn't fly behind anybody BUT John Williamson. 'Cause I know that tug's gonna be the LEAST likely to go up with a sub normal weak link, bridle, towline. Like if I had to send someone about whom I gave a flying fuck up for a slope launched tandem thrill ride I'd pick Jon Orders - 'cause I know he's gonna be permanently TERRIFIED of ever pulling a rerun.

I wonder who was responsible for the tow line coming undone.

Me too. 'Cause we know that every motherfucker on the Highland Aerosports crew knows which motherfucker it was who botched the splice. And none of them had the decency/character to step up, apologize for his incompetence/carelessness and take any heat off of John.

When you have an aviation organization with nothing but total scumbags at the top that character will filter down and set the tone for the sport.

Craig Williamson - 2006/06/17 13:56:40 UTC

Post weaklink break

the tow line was provided by the tow park apparently it had been cut or broken previously and had been tied don't know who tied it

They do. And even if the don't they owe everybody a public apology. But all AT operators are perfect so we never hear anything actually happening.

Davis Straub - 2006/06/17 14:24:18 UTC

Communication, what a difficult art.

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

...a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line...

The tow line was provided by the tow park. Apparently it had been cut or broken previously and had been tied. I don't know who tied it.

I assume that you meant that the tow line had been "spliced" and that the splice had come undone.

Lemme do that a little better for ya, Davis:

I assume that you meant that the tow line had been "spliced" and that the "splice" had come undone.

Thanks.

Don't mention it.

Craig Williamson - 2006/06/17 14:33:50 UTC

Post weaklnk break

I would have spliced the tug pilot would have spliced he said tied not sure if he meant spliced and not sure who reconected it

The person who reconnected it knows who reconnected it.

Davis Straub - 2006/06/17 15:15:56 UTC

thanksagainshowingthedifficultyofcommunication
especiallywithoutpunctuationorcapitalization
dontmeantoberudebutiwasjusthavingahardtimefollowingwhatyouweresaying

Jim Rooney - 2006/06/18 14:31:22 UTC

The tow line was two pieces of spectra spliced together. The splice didn't hold and the line seperated.

And you were the one standing on the side of the runway filming the incident and we're just getting this definitive semiliterate statement on it from you now.

If you're curious or unfamiliar with the types of splices used, check out your bridal ends...

We're really great at splicing them. Just can't figure out how to spell them.

...the loops are formed by a splice. Normally splices involve a twisting weave to ensure the splice holds. There was question as to how much weave was used and how close of a weave, etc.

There are instructions for effecting these splices from manufacturers and sailing websites that have been around since the beginning of time. RTFM and then there won't be any questions. But nobody's gonna tell you douchebags how to do ANYTHING.

They either switched out the line or knotted the line after it failed... probably both.

Funny "THEY" can't be bothered to tell us what THEY did.

It was impressive to watch quick reactions have such a positive outcome... nice work Davis.

And now you should suck Rooney's dick a little, Davis.

And if I were getting compliments like that for bullshit like that Hang 0.7 level response to the situation I'd be very publicly dismissing them. But... End of thread.

[Steve Davy]

http://www.kitestrings.org/viewtopic.php?p=11560#p11560
CHGA AT Weak Link War

I'm locking this topic but only because it's intended to be an archive. We can discuss it at our "Weak links" thread and/or elsewhere on the forum.

You can't fix stupid. You can try, but you cannot fix stupid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaVg_bzK3Aw