http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csDRdqMH3Kk
The flight that almost killed me
John Heiney
That you were able to able to hold on in that situation is nothing short of stupendous. Glad you're still with us. Your continuing to make roll corrections to keep the wing level until the end is remarkable. You really kept your cool in a terrible situation.
Manufacturers decided some time ago to use an integral back-up strap, ostensibly for drag reduction. This idea completely ignores one of the two reasons for having a BU-strap. Reason #1. Main strap failure. Reason #2. Failure to hook in properly. If there is a separate BU, any sensible pilot will extend the BU too. One could conceivably hook in incorrectly to both, but a redundant BU at least doubles your chance of success.
The problem with the integral BU hang strap is that it looks like one hang strap. Newer pilots who are not familiar with the idea of a BU will extend the one strap when they really should use an additional BU extension, which would have saved the day in this case. I carry an extra-long hang loop in my harness with my extension loops, so I can add a separate BU when needed.
If manufacturers will revert back to the original logic of a separate BU strap, pilots' lives will be saved. No pilot flying for fun needs to reduce drag to this degree. Most pilots plow through the air head-up anyway making the idea of trying to hide the BU drag in the main ludicrous. Comp pilots will always trade safety for performance, but rec pilots should not be mislead into thinking we need this minuscule drag-reduction feature at the detriment of safety.
I know a guy who's main broke while he was looping. The separate BU saved him. I knew a guy who died because he didn't hook into his extension correctly around the time the first integral BUs were introduced. I'm sure that he would have extended the BU had there been a separate BU strap hanging there in front of his face while he was hooking in. That's why we need a separate BU.
The idea that hooking your harness into your glider before you climb in will prevent launching unhooked is a fallacy, because we humans are fallible. As long as there is a carabiner that can be unhooked, an unusual situation will arise when the pilot (a human being) will unhook and forget to hook back in. There is no foolproof way of preventing unhooked launches unless the harness does not detach from the glider.
The best way I have seen that reduces the likelihood of launching unhooked is "Marginal" Mark's method of lifting the glider until you feel the leg loops pull up on your legs, then launch in that condition. This also insures that you are in your leg loops. This method does take a fair amount of strength. If you are not strong enough to hold the glider up while you launch, you should at least do a quick lift to feel the leg loops tighten just before you go.
That you were able to able to hold on in that situation is nothing short of stupendous.
Bullshit. He supported his weight plus harness and parachute never pulling more than a bit over one G for fourteen seconds. Chris Gursky - Interlaken - 2018...
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...held on for two and a half times that - minus the parachute but in a more demanding configuration. And he tore a tendon just from holding on and we don't hear from Garck that he was stressed in the least.
Glad you're still with us.
Maybe you should publicly comment on the incidents resulting in participants not being still with us.
Your continuing to make roll corrections to keep the wing level until the end is remarkable.
What a stupid comment.
- If you're making roll corrections the wing isn't staying and you're not keeping it level. And it doesn't start or stay anything close to level.
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He steers it out for his second best landing option. (In the ocean with about four feet of water under him would've been better but that would've been a tough call to hafta make.)
I think this idiot is looking at the footage from this keel mounted camera, noting how nicely aligned with the frame the wings are staying...
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...not thinking about what's going on with the horizon.
- NOTHING he does in this video is remarkable. The modification which precipitated this moderate disaster and near fatality was shoddy, his ground handling and launch management and execution were crap, and his ridge soaring performance left something to be desired.
- He lucks out in having the separation hit him at an optimal enough point and in optimal enough circumstances and conditions that he's able to remain connected to the glider. And your making a statement like this is pissing all over the individuals who've made the same mistake and haven't been able to stay with the glider - through no further fault of their own.
The only thing moderately remarkable about this is that he posted the video, has treated it as a proper incident report, is engaging in full and honest discussion. And that SHOULDN'T be remarkable and decades ago wouldn't have been but in contemporary hang gliding culture dregs like Joe Greblo, Sam Kellner, Paul Tjaden, Pat Denevan, Kevin Kader are the norm.
What's remarkable in this sport is seeing people flying with solid gliders and equipment; preflighting, hook-in checking, launching, approaching, landing properly; functioning as competent pilots. And when I look at and read your crap I don't see it.
You really kept your cool in a terrible situation.
Rubbish. He did what he had to do as a consequence of not having done what he'd needed to do and was keeping the cool the situation permitted him - as was Lenami. She held on up to the point at which Jon's shoes separated from his feet. Where's the praise for her keeping her cool on her first (and last) hang gliding experience ever? Cite an example of a flyer at any level in the sport not keeping his cool in an emergency situation. We all try to respond with what we know or believe to be the best inputs all the way to recovery, landing, or impact.
P.S. Any comment on the degree of cool Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney was keeping as he dove himself and his glider and passenger into the powerlines in front of Coronet Peak on 2006/02/21? Why is this one worth commenting on while that one wasn't?
Manufacturers decided some time ago to use an integral back-up strap, ostensibly for drag reduction.
- Yeah. It reduces drag. I'm all in for ANYTHING that reduces drag without compromising anything that matters.
- I have an even better way to reduce drag. Don't incorporate a stupid backup strap.
- Stupid manufacturers. Their gliders just keep getting crappier and crappier with each passing year. (Note that it was Wills Wing - with no help from John Heiney - who first debunked the Comet era "floating crossbar" bullshit and promptly and permanently eliminated the extended keel pocket and related crap from all their designs.)
This idea completely ignores one of the two reasons for having a BU-strap. Reason #1. Main strap failure.
Yeah, that's a biggie. About thirty incidents a season reported in the US alone. And virtually all of them due to issues nearly impossible to detect on preflight.
Reason #2. Failure to hook in properly.
Bull fucking shit. The backup loop was/is a total cave to glider people stupidity. PERIOD. It doesn't solve problems - it creates them.
If there is a separate BU, any sensible pilot will extend the BU too.
A sensible pilot will remove anything that smacks of a backup. (Took me about a quarter century to overcome my indoctrination and become sensible.)
One could conceivably hook in incorrectly to both, but a redundant BU at least doubles your chance of success.
Bull fucking shit. Anyone who's incapable of properly hooking into a hang loop, checking his connection, verifying that he's connected in under two to four seconds prior to launch needs to find another hobby. An actual sensible pilot will never have the slightest need of or desire for a backup loop.
That's not to say that you won't get the rare fuckup like this one and that Garck was/is fundamentally incompetent as a pilot - but you don't retool the whole system for one of these one-in-a-million fuckup events. (And I believe that guestimate to be reasonably close to reality. But if I were forced to revise I'd start multiplying the million end.) He shitrigged his glider for long term regular use with what he had on hand, didn't review the magazine archives to educate himself about this known fatal issue that his shitrigged instructor didn't advise him about, came damned close to buying the farm.
This is a fairly good parallel to the Infallible Standard Aerotow Weak Link. Everybody's gotta fly with one a hundred percent of the time 'cause they're will be the odd one in a million event in which some incompetent fuckup might have been / be saved by one. And screw any and all downsides for everybody else.
TheFjordflier
WOW! That was too close. You unknowingly stacked the odds in your favour, plus some quick reactions. Glad you survived. Another location...probably another outcome. And a couple of seconds extra, looking at your connection during preflight wouldn't have harmed
Next time! Thanks for uploading the video.
You will never ever do this glitch again, believe me 
Nice flights.
Correct. He will NEVER make that mistake, or anything similar like a partial hook-in...
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...again. He's been educated - fourteen seconds of terror and some substantial injuries.
But also nobody who's seen that video will ever make that mistake. Which means that this issue can be totally dealt with through classroom EDUCATION - which is what you're supposed to be getting when you pay for u$hPa instruction and pilot rating.
Willy Dydo, Fly Away Hang Gliding - damn good bet. And we're gonna assume that it was 'cause that motherfucker hasn't bothered to participate in this rather intense global discussion of this incident which occurred about fourteen crowflight miles ESE from his training site (Elings Park). Hasn't taught him:
- to execute a hook-in check just prior to launch
- how to:
-- ground handle with a wire guy
-- assign position for wire crew
-- execute a foot launch into soarable ridge lift conditions
-- perfect his flare timing (we can very safely assume)
- not to fly with shitrigged equipment
And, John, I notice you're not addressing any of these issues.
The problem with the integral BU hang strap is that it looks like one hang strap.
- Here's a thought... Eliminate anything along the lines of the idiot fucking BU hang strap.
- The current Wills Wing kingpost suspension configuration is two straps supported from a bit up the kingpost by tangs bolted to its sides. It essentially IS one strap. There's ZILCH difference between this and a single double thickness nylon strap - one that will hold two hundred times the capacity of the glider instead of just one hundred times the capacity of the glider. The only reason they do it this way is so they can tell their idiot dealers and customers that their glider has a backup strap.
Fairly clever strategy - I must admit. Although the proper, ethical, decent thing to do would be for them to announce that they are reverting to their original policy of not shipping with backup straps 'cause they don't do anything beyond adding expense, weight, and drag and introducing problems. And while they're at it... Issue an advisory to remove all backup straps from all relevant currently flying Wills Wing gliders.
Newer pilots who are not familiar with the idea of a BU...
- Are in for a real treat if they start looking into all the idiot bullshit that goes on in this idiot sport.
- How 'bout newer pilots who are not familiar with the idea of a carabiner locking mechanism?
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What's that supposed to be doing for us? Cite from the entire history of the sport one situation in which the pilot was compromised for want of a locked carabiner or would've been compromised by an unlocked carabiner.
...will extend the one strap when they really should use an additional BU extension...
Something along the lines of...
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? Yeah, it just fills my heart with unmitigated joy whenever I see pilots making solid efforts to do things right.
...which would have saved the day in this case.
Yeah, let's all equip our gliders with proper backup loops so we can safely shitrig our primaries.
I carry an extra-long hang loop in my harness with my extension loops, so I can add a separate BU when needed.
Tell us about some of the times you've needed a backup loop, John. You're gonna blow your fuckin' glider apart a few dozen Gs before you're ever gonna need a backup loop. Me? I just preflight my suspension every time I fly so I can know I won't need the stupid backup.
If manufacturers will revert back to the original logic of a separate BU strap...
- There was never the SLIGHTEST degree of logic associated with a backup loop of any kind.
Mike Meier - 2005/08/~18
It shouldn't matter whether the backup is in front or behind, because it should be longer than the main such that it is always slack in flight. An argument could be made that IF the main hang loop broke, you'd rather have the backup in front because the most likely scenario in which you'd break the main would be pulling high positive G's, and in that case you'd rather have the pitch trim become more nose down than become more nose up, but on a Falcon 2 that's not really a consideration. As far as where the backup "usually" goes, we usually put it behind the main because that's usually where there's room for it. If the main is properly maintained, and periodically replaced, it is never going to fail anyway, so the backup is sort of pointless. Years ago we didn't even put backup hang loops on our gliders (there's no other component on your glider that is backed up, and there are plenty of other components that are more likely to fail, and where the failure would be just as serious), but for some reason the whole backup hang loop thing is a big psychological need for most pilots.
It was a total pander to the stupidity of the assholes who populate this sport.
- Tell us what the logic of the hang gliding aerotow weak link is. What's it supposed to be doing for us and what strength we should be using so that it works properly when we need it to and won't inconvenience us at an overly safe rate?
...pilots' lives will be saved.
Name one whose life was lost because he didn't have a "proper" backup configuration. Garck would've been an example but he wasn't even very badly injured. On the other hand I can name you a whole shitload of pilots who've been killed and seriously mangled 'cause they weren't hooked into ANYTHING at launch. I can name you two tandem thrill rider chicks who were dropped to their deaths 'cause they were launched like:
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Tell us what you've EVER done to help get that MAJOR killer and maimer issue addressed.
And I can also name several who were fine from the waist up but died 'cause they didn't have their leg loops. How come nobody advocates backup leg loops to increase our odds of survival? And if you're platform or dolly launching your leg loops won't matter until/unless you go upright for landing. Tow launch sites are virtually always ideal wheel landing sites. How come nobody advocates wheel landing in those environment as a safety measure to eliminate that means of killing oneself?
No pilot flying for fun needs to reduce drag to this degree.
There are two reasons to fly a hang glider:
- for fun
- to illegally rake in dough selling tandem thrill rides under the guise of providing instruction
Fuck the second so for the purpose of this discussion EVERYBODY who flies a hang glider does it for fun and fun alone.
- The more performance we have the more fun we have ('cept maybe on final in a tight field when we suddenly discover we have a tailwind). Check out Ryan's suspension:
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Don't see much flapping in the breeze there, do we? From the carabiner up anyway. He can't fly a racing pod 'cause he needs to ball up to get the speed he needs to initiate maneuvers.
- Sometimes we fuck up and get ourselves in situations in which we're not having fun and need every ounce of performance we can get to avoid going down in the trees (BTDT), water, powerlines.
So don't tell me that it's OK to add drag to all gliders for 100.000 percent of their flying time to up the odds of survival of someone who makes a critical mistake when shitrigging a critical system of his glider.
Also... Name one individual who thinks it's more fun to fly an extra parasitic drag glider.
Most pilots plow through the air head-up anyway...
- You mean like this?
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No wait... That's 'cause...
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...you have the skill to AT launch without an upper bridle attachment to trim the glider back down into certified configuration. Just like:
Plus you're using a very easily reachable release...
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...with a ball on it to make it...
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...even more easily reachable...
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...and a weak link which will infallibly and automatically release your glider from tow whenever the tow line tension exceeds the limit for safe operation.
- Let's take a look at this one:
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a bit under three seconds before things go seriously south. Is that what he's doing? Show us some shots to better illustrate your point.
- ALL pilots are gonna make temporary adjustments for comfort during intervals in which performance isn't an issue.
- We fly slowly / well under max L/D when we're milking lift. Both glider, by definition, and pilot, of necessity, are pitched up. But when we're flying down or up wind to the next thermal cloud we're all doing everything possible to minimize our profiles.
...making the idea of trying to hide the BU drag in the main ludicrous.
- How 'bout this...
http://chgpa.org
Capital Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association
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...stupid draggy crappy Flight Park Mafia excuse for an AT release? Is that enough drag to make it not ludicrous for you to go pro toad?
- Pretty hard to find a photo of you flying with either wheels or skids.
- The idea of reducing drag in ANY aircraft is NEVER ridiculous. What's fuckin' ridiculous is flying around for the entire life of the glider with a foot or two of slack webbing held perpendicular to and fluttering in the airflow for every glider on the planet because it will likely defuse a one-in-a-million shitrigged equipment induced fuckup like this one.
Comp pilots will always trade safety for performance...
Oh really? So an ultra clean carbon topless bladewing with a comparable racing pod is automatically more dangerous than a Falcon 2 with a cocoon? Do we have any data to support this assumption?
...but rec pilots...
What? Comp isn't rec? The comp pilots are doing this professionally? That's how they're earning their livings? Cleaning up with the big purses from national and world comps?
...should not be mislead into thinking we need this minuscule drag-reduction feature at the detriment of safety.
- Who's misleading them?
http://www.willswing.com/hang-gliders/sport-3/
Sport 3 - Wills Wing
Aerodynamic Refinements
The most significant aerodynamic revisions to the Sport 3 are a redesigned sail and stability system that together provide for a tighter-flatter sail and allow for lower sprog settings. This lower twist sail both significantly improves high speed performance and reduces pitch pressures at high speed. These changes also contribute to improved handling across the speed range and range of VG adjustment. The Sport 3 can also be configured with carbon fiber raked tips that increase the effective aspect ratio, reducing induced drag to further enhance low speed performance.
Don't even mention it. And everything they have on the issue in the fuckin' manual:
The main / backup hang loops. Verify that the main hang loop spreader bar is positioned just below the bottom surface.
By the way John... You lost the world consecutive loop record to Chad Elchin 'cause your glider was kingposted and his wasn't.
- Speaking of misleading recreational pilots... You wanna know what the single most devastating misinformation in the sport is?
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings
Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
Doing anything about that one?
I know a guy who's main broke while he was looping.
Which means he was flying with a main probably good for only three Gs max on a glider certified for six. Anybody besides me see a problem with that?
The separate BU saved him.
How? Shouldn't the separate BU have been hit with the same three Gs plus the jolt? Or was the backup in better shape than the primary? (Total fuckin' bullshit.)
And more total fuckin' bullshit... There was OBVIOUSLY something SERIOUSLY wrong with his main and he was OBVIOUSLY SERIOUSLY negligent in preflighting his wing - before going AEROBATIC no less. Anyone who ISN'T full o' shit is gonna tell us what the issue is. But you're presenting this incident as if everything was being done right and his main blew for no reason. It's deliberately misleading and bullshit like this intimidates the hell outta tons of Zero, One, Two, Three level pilots and helps cripple their endeavors to become competent and comfortable flying hang gliders.
I knew a guy who died because he didn't hook into his extension correctly around the time the first integral BUs were introduced. I'm sure that he would have extended the BU had there been a separate BU strap hanging there in front of his face while he was hooking in. That's why we need a separate BU.
Go fuck yourself. I knew a guy - briefly - who died on an earlier edition of the same model glider Garck was flying because he'd been instructed and signed off to Three level 100.00 percent in violation of u$hPa SOPs which mandate a hook-in check just prior to launch. It's a total no-brainer that this guy was instructed and flew likewise. And as far as I'm concerned this guy was dead for the purpose of the exercise every foot launch he ever made.
Also... You knew two guys from two serious incidents and you give us zero names.
The idea that hooking your harness into your glider before you climb in will prevent launching unhooked is a fallacy, because we humans are fallible.
So let's engineer our gliders and harnesses to provide maximum protection from every mistake every idiot who's ever proned out in a harness has ever made and ignore any and all possible and obvious downsides.
As long as there is a carabiner that can be unhooked, an unusual situation will arise when the pilot (a human being) will unhook and forget to hook back in.
'Specially if he's an Aussie Methodist total douchebag who can't conceive of a situation in which anyone in a harness could possibly not be safely connected to a glider with his leg loops engaged.
There is no foolproof way of preventing unhooked launches unless the harness does not detach from the glider.
And there's no way to transport a glider any range beyond walking distance unless the harness DOES detach from the glider. So let's not head much farther down that avenue.
But as far as I'm concerned the lift and tug hook-in check you're about to bring up COMBINED WITH the assumption that you are never hooked in and the appropriate fear level IS a totally foolproof way of preventing unhooked launches 'cause it takes the fool totally out of the equation. Only a totally fool...
http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=802
AL's Second flight at Packsaddle how it went
Rick Masters - 2011/10/19 22:47:17 UTC
At that moment, I would banish all concern about launching unhooked. I had taken care of it. It was done. It was out of my mind.
...EVER at ANY moment banishes all concern about launching unhooked. That's the one thing that every motherfucker who's ever been embarrassed, battered, mangled, killed launching unhooked has in common with every other motherfucker who's ever been embarrassed, battered, mangled, killed launching unhooked. They were all 100.00 percent positive that they were all 100.00 good to go.
The best way I have seen that reduces the likelihood of launching unhooked is "Marginal" Mark's method of lifting the glider until you feel the leg loops pull up on your legs...
- Oh, that's "Marginal" Mark's method.
-- Everybody knows who 'Marginal" Mark' is (Mark Lilledahl, San Francisco, Funston) so no need to elaborate further.
-- He:
--- was the first guy to come up with this idea somewhere back in the mid Seventies
--- has been a tireless advocate of the Marginal Mark Method over the decades and has undoubtedly saved untold scores of lives
- Is Marginal literate? Is there an article or post of his on any issue, hang gliding or not, anywhere? And how come he's not participating in this discussion?
- Name one:
-- instructor who conforms his program to Marginal's technique.
-- individual who's modified his procedures as a direct or indirect result of Marginal's influence. Yourself maybe?
- People with enough in the way of brains to incorporated this procedure generally also have enough in the way of brains to understand what a total load o' crap the backup loop is.
- Where can we go to find a video of you or one of your products executing this procedure? We notice you're saying ...The best way I have SEEN... while not saying you've ever once actually INCORPORATED it. And it's a total no-brainer that you HAVEN'T. And you're selling lessons and never teaching any of your students this procedure - or anything else that complies with u$hPa's near four decade old hook-in check requirement.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31781
Another hang check lesson
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http://www.energykitesystems.net/Lift/hgh/TadEareckson/FTHI.pdf
- Fuck you and the horse you rode in on for so conspicuously ignoring my decades of work and efforts on this issue. Also... Doug Hildreth plugged this issue in the magazine from 1980/11 through 1994/03, Dennis Pagen after an unhooked launch at Morningside put in a few words 1990/01 and on, Rob Kells put in a good passage diluted with a lot of politically correct crap 2005/12 after Bill Priday. Marginal Mark my ass.
...then launch in that condition.
Right. It's CRITICAL that you not only do the lift and tug within a couple seconds of commitment but that you also hold the suspension taut until your wing starts taking over the job.
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There's just no telling what could happen as you're starting your run.
This also insures that you are in your leg loops.
- At the expense of giving you a false sense of security.
- You actually only need one of them.
This method does take a fair amount of strength.
Yeah. And the hydraulic hoist you used to load the glider on your shoulders in the first place will be way back in the setup area. Pure unmitigated bullshit. I've heard two hundred percent of the moronic reasons why lift and tug is ineffective, not doable, dangerous, gives one a false sense of security but strength requirement is a new one and in a class all by itself. If you don't have the strength to lift 75 pounds of glider - the most you're ever gonna hafta do and then only in dead air - the few inches it takes to tighten your suspension then you have no fuckin' business foot launching.
Geometry which makes the procedure problematic to impossible in light or zero air - different and legitimate issue. But you doesn't mention it and that's more really excellent evidence that you don't teach or even make your students aware of it.
If you are not strong enough to hold the glider up while you launch, you should at least do a quick lift to feel the leg loops tighten just before you go.
It won't offer you the kind of bulletproof protection hold the glider up while you launch does - you could still be distracted, unhook, forget to hook back in while you're accelerating down the ramp - but it's certainly better than nothing.
This is currently - and will undoubtedly remain - the most extensive mainstream response to this incident. And I've been working on this dissection on and off since my previous post. What an incredible load o' crap.
Wilbur and Orville, Kitty Hawk, 116 years ago this morning. Look at how far backwards hang gliding's been able to take things over the course of a few decades.
