instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25435
Raunchy Day At The Ridge + Release Failure

Andrew Stakhov - 2012/03/05 21:35:14 UTC
Toronto

I would think that's an advantage of a LMFP type release where your hand is through the release loop.

By LMFP "TYPE" release do you mean something that doesn't lock up and disintegrate under some of the stress of a loop of 130 pound Greenspot - the way a Lookout ACTUAL release does?

When my lockouts started I didn't have to think - just jerk the hand and I was off. I did it fairly early, as I knew I was past the point of no return.

Oh. So you recognize this as a significant safety advantage.

But there's really not much of an issue with respect to controlling the glider...

Gregg McNamee - 1996/12

PRIMARY RELEASE CRITERIA

To actuate the primary release the pilot does not have to give up any control of the glider. (Common sense tells us that the last thing we want to do in an emergency situation is give up control of the glider in order to terminate the tow.)

If your system requires you to take your hand off the control bar to actuate the release it is not suitable.

...'cause you're pretty good at flying these things with one hand. But anyway...

So are you asking yourself why, after over twenty years, a basetube mounted actuator going to a release on the keel that doesn't lock up and disintegrate under light loading isn't universal equipment at all aerotow operations? And never has been and, at the current rate of research and development...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Paul Tjaden - 2011/07/30 15:33:54 UTC

Quest Air has been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly twenty years...

...never WILL BE?

It's interesting note regarding the protow being more stable on tow.

Yeah. Really interesting.

I should try it.

You should probably ask Holly Korzilius about her take on one versus two point towing stability first.

I know Terry flies a Sport 2 which many have said is twitchy on tow - I fly the same thing. I'll have a chance to compare that to my new T2C next month so I'll get a nice comparison on how both tow, and maybe try the protow while I'm at it.

Yeah. You should. It's what the pros use 'cause it's more stable. That's why they call it protow. They put the amateurs and beginners up on the unstable two point stuff until they've demonstrated that they're deserving of protow privileges.

Diev Hart - 2012/03/06 01:06:39 UTC
Santa Cruz

I think some pilots may wait too long to release, causing the release to have a lot of pressure on it from the side.

Right there (I think) is the main issue...some pilots think they can fix a bad thing and don't want to start over.
-
Lightspeed 4, Super Sport 153, SL200, U2 160, Predator 158
FL, CL, FSL, AWCL, RLF, AT, TFL, TUR, XC, MNTR

Right Diev.

Wills Wing

...there are a few important principles to observe. The first is that you should not make any change in hand position unless you are flying at or very near trim speed. At speeds faster than trim, you will be holding the bar in in pitch against substantial force, and if you let go to move your hand the glider will pitch up and roll towards your remaining hand. The second is that while moving either hand, you have no control over the glider.

It's just a bunch of stupid people who try to maintain control of the glider and just don't understand that the only time the Lockout Mountain Flight Park Release will work is before you really need it to.

Bill Bryden - 2000/02

Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.

And if you just release instantly every time there's a bit of misalignment you'll never get into a situation in which your Lockout Release gets a lot of pressure on it from the side.

And you should just tow in smooth air so you never get into that bit of misalignment which requires you to instantly blow tow so you don't risk going nearly upside down the next moment and end up glued to the tug with an overloaded Lockout Release.

Which idiots signed your AT rating and appointed you as Mentor?

By the way...

Casey Cox - 2012/03/05 21:15:05 UTC

I think some pilots may wait too long to release, causing the release to have a lot of pressure on it from the side.

...Casey...

It's PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to load ANY hang glider release ('cept for the Koch) from the SIDE - or from high or low. They're all harnessed, tied, or clipped to keels, carabiners, or harness tow loops and they're always perfectly aligned with the towline or bridle end connected to them. They're directly opposed to the tension that's pulling on them regardless of what the hell is happening with the glider.

THINK!!!

[Steve Davy]

Miguel - 2012/03/05 19:40:32 UTC

Tad will continue to be a footnote unless he stops striking out at others. His message is obscured by his aggression.

Not from my point of view. I have learned a bunch since finding Kitestrings. Lessons in common sense, decency, history, human nature and integrity. I've learned some stuff about hang gliding as well.

I also have learned much in this forum. I overlook and discount the bile and venom. Many folks see the bile and venom and click away, never to return. Do you think those that click away, leave with a good impression?

How could I know what impression folks that click away, never to return, leave with?

[Tad Eareckson]

Not from my point of view...

Thanks Steve.

I'm actually a pretty sorry excuse for a human being - but inside of a culture overwhelmingly populated and completely controlled by total crud it's real easy to look good.

Real happy to have you and a few other people here on the right wavelength making some positive changes on whatever scale we can.

[miguel]

Miguel - 2012/03/05 19:40:32 UTC

Tad will continue to be a footnote unless he stops striking out at others. His message is obscured by his aggression.

Not from my point of view. I have learned a bunch since finding Kitestrings. Lessons in common sense, decency, history, human nature and integrity. I've learned some stuff about hang gliding as well.

I also have learned much in this forum. I overlook and discount the bile and venom. Many folks see the bile and venom and click away, never to return. Do you think those that click away, leave with a good impression?

How could I know what impression folks that click away, never to return, leave with?

OK......

[Tad Eareckson]

miguel - 2012/03/07 15:56:07 UTC

I also have learned much in this forum.

You shouldn't have. You should have learned everything in this forum from:
- USHGA instructors, flight schools, magazines, textbooks, and advisories;
- glider and glider equipment manufacturer owners' manuals; and
- mainstream discussion groups.

Ever wonder why you haven't?

I overlook and discount the bile and venom.

Then you overlook the reasons that you've had to learn much from this forum instead of:
- USHGA instructors, flight schools, magazines, textbooks, and advisories;
- glider and glider equipment manufacturer owners' manuals; and
- mainstream discussion groups.

And if the material in this forum is critical life and death stuff - and I feel comfortable saying at least well over half of the people on the membership list know it is - then you should be pretty outraged that it isn't industry standard and only a small handful of people who stumble across this site can benefit.

Many folks see the bile and venom and click away, never to return.

- Maybe, probably. So?

- Did you see the explosion of bile and venom at the mere mention of my name on The Jack Show a couple weeks ago? Ya know what happened with the hit counters over here right afterwards?

- This forum was NOTHING when it started two Thanksgivings ago - just a conversation between Zack and me. Still doesn't have much in the way of active participation - but it's doing what was spelled out in the mission statement, it's growing (slowly), and it's a significant web presence.

- Compare/Contrast with The Bob Show - which is doing pretty much the opposite of its mission statement and probably will never go anywhere - especially not if I can do anything about it.

Do you think those that click away, leave with a good impression?

- Probablynotsowhat?

Nobody - 2011/07/18 11:04:14 UTC

Hello folks.
I'm new here, been reading post for hours, it's late and my eyes hurt now. Need to sleep.

Can't please everyone and I'm not here to win popularity contests.

- But WHEN one of those that clicks away has a friend who breaks an arm landing at the Happy Acres putting green in calm air, crashes after his 130 pound Greenspot blows, has his Lockout Release lock up when he really needs it not to, or runs off the ramp without his glider - or does one or more of those himself - the reason it happened and the really easy fix which would have prevented it from happening that he couldn't get from any other source will have been here. And all of that stuff has already happened - and I've got the documentation.

Zack C - 2011/08/26 00:20:56 UTC

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots...
...
Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing.

Wow. The irony. The arrogance. And people call Tad arrogant...I can see why you have so much contempt for this guy, Tad.

deltaman - 2012/02/16 08:14:22 UTC

Tad, I clearly understand your position, resentment, hate and your urge to use law to force better pratices...

These guys get it.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25435
Raunchy Day At The Ridge + Release Failure

Jonathan Boarini - 2012/03/05 18:27:46 UTC

I personally don't agree with the emphasis on not letting go of the bar to release. I've had numerous lockout situations where I've had to quickly release and the instant it took for me to do it with the normal bicycle release was a non issue, and that design seems to work perfectly under high loads.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26902
The climate continues

Jonathan Boarini - 2012/03/08 21:37:35 UTC

The theory of anthropogenic, carbon-induced global warming (or "climate change") has been thoroughly disproven. It can only be described as a hoax. Hansen is not a scientist, he's a political activist.

Ya gotta love the consistency.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25435
Raunchy Day At The Ridge + Release Failure

Terry Ryan - 2012/03/08 20:16:47 UTC

OK, here's a bit more info.

(BTW Hangskier, thanks for the link to OZ Report, bridle wrap.)

Yeah, who coulda seen something like that coming?

Did you go to the discussion at:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

and read the posts from Ridgerodent and Deltaman referencing my prior documentation on the issue?

I gotta admit, I love the simplicity of the Linknife.

Yeah...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=607
Understanding Tow Releases

Tad Eareckson - 2011/08/07 17:16:08 UTC

The reason that the Linknife is so widely glorified in hang gliding is because it's something simple enough for virtually all of the idiots who fly these things to fully and and immediately comprehend. And when you allow the idiots who fly these things make critical decisions regarding critical equipment it's all gonna boil down to "Simple - GOOD!!! Complex - BAD"!!!

...if it's SIMPLE it's just gotta be good!

Further investigation on my problem showed that ... under abnormally high pressure (on the release)...

Can you please DEFINE just what "abnormally high PRESSURE" is? Using actual numbers?

AND with a 6" radius 180 degree bend in my cable, I was NOT able to release (with a reasonably strong yank on the string loop).

Yeah. Pretty tough to see that one coming too.

If the cable was essentially straight, it worked fine, even with high pressure.

What if you didn't use cable? What if you used leechline and pulleys? Like on your VG system?

My particular release actuator mounts to the base bar and therefore bends/loops around to go up the downtube. I assume it's the added friction of the bend that makes it so difficult. I have since run some oil down the inside of the cable and will re-test in the morning.

I'll keep you all posted.
...
Follow up: I drizzled 3-in-1 oil down the inside of the cable, with the cable hanging vertical. The next morning, oil seeped out of the other (rope loop) end ... ALONG WITH TRACES OF RUST.

It never occurred to me that the cable was rusty inside. It appeared clean and perfect from the outside.

That's why it was so hard to pull when it had a bend in it ... when it required a little extra force.

Ever hear of a VG system seizing up because of rust?

Wow! The things you learn, eh !!

Yeah, absolutely incredible! Who'da thunk.

Check your equipment folks.

What are you using for a secondary? Just kidding.

Extremely bad equipment will fail under normal use.

You mean like...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

...your secondary?

But just mildly poor equipment will fail when under extra-ordinary stress. BUT THAT'S WHEN YOU NEED IT THE MOST.

Yeah. That's why just south of the border in the country from which you purchased that piece o' shit there's a regulation which states:

This release shall be operational with zero tow line force up to twice the rated breaking strength of the weak link.

Just how well do you think it complies?

Gentle breezes,
TR

Yeah, probably a real good idea to limit your towing to those conditions.

PS: Now that the cable is well lubed, it works like a charm. BUT...

PPS: I think I'm going to switch over to a SteevRelease.

http://www.skydogsports.com/release/

For 2 reasons.

1 - to get a new (low-friction) cable.
2 - I really like the business end, as opposed to the spinaker shackle.

Me too!!!

I think some pilots may wait too long to release, causing the release to have a lot of pressure on it from the side.

You don't hafta worry about it getting side loaded if you wait too long to release 'cause Steve built it so it's side loaded ALL THE TIME!!! Pure genius!!!

Thanks for all your input gents.

Except for Zack, of course. Why bother checking his link, listening to what he said, or acknowledging his existence?

Rate this post

Mostly clueless.

Jim Gaar - 2012/03/08 21:40:41 UTC

I had the same issue with my lanyard release Terry, BUT I discovered it on the ground and made the same adjustment that you did (removing the tight radius by resetting the placement of the cable ties).

However mine would seriously bind and it was NOT rusted inside.

What if you didn't use cable? What if you used leechline and pulleys? Like on your VG system?

So your release must have been plane stuck!

Oh good! A new and appropriate adverb I might be able to use sometime.

Thanks for the heads up.

Yeah, it's amazing what you can learn in the course of a nice, civilized Jack Show discussion.

The PeterB Linknife IS the bomb. One of the most fail proof (will Tad let me say that?)...

No, because it can be disabled by a little grass. And there's never been a report of the built in Schweizer style release on the Dragonfly failing.

...releases out there. Not perfect, but real close...

Yeah, make sure you say it's not PERFECT.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Jim Rooney - 2011/02/06 18:35:13 UTC

The minute someone starts telling me about their "perfect"system, I start walking away.

Whenever anybody spends months or years working his ass off to perfect something before presenting it to all you stupid douchebags all you stupid douchebags just start walking away.

By the way Jim...

- Nobody is having a problem with the RELEASE MECHANISM - which, in this discussion, is the spinnaker shackle.

- They're talking about problems with the ACTUATION SYSTEM - which, in this discussion, is the cable crap with two hand turns between the basetube and the keel mounted release.

- Peter uses uses a string lanyard to his Linknife in front of the bridle apex so he doesn't have any binding or rusting issues.

- But he ties the string to his shoulder so he can't get to it when the shit hits the fan without losing control of his glider and he's come reasonably close to killing himself as a consequence the one time he got airborne when they were keeping score.

- These guys want the fucking actuator on the fucking basetube. If they strap a lever on the downtube tight enough so that it doesn't spin around if/when somebody gets to it and there's not to much play in the cable it'll work.

- But the problem is...

There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.

...that people can't always get to it when the shit hits the fan.

- So will you shut the fuck up about the mechanism and start talking about the actuation system?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25435
Raunchy Day At The Ridge + Release Failure

Paul Edwards - 2012/03/09 01:42:32 UTC
Tennessee

I'm curious if anyone has more to say on the safety merits of pro-tow?

They're kinda like the merits of anything else that takes the glider out of the configuration for which it was designed and certified to be flown. If you wanna throw your upper speed range away on landing approach then fly upright with your hands on the downtubes. If you wanna throw your upper speed range away during takeoff and climbout then lose your upper attachment point and just tow from your shoulders. People usually don't have real serious problems doing either.

I tow with the Lookout release.

Don't you think - after everything we've been hearing and seeing recently - that "release" is a somewhat overly dignified term for the shit that Matt sells?

I find it a comforting thought that if things start to get squiffy I have the release already wrapped around my fingers and can release without letting go of the base bar.

Yeah. Just as long as you're not locking out and approaching two thirds of your 130 pound Greenspot capacity.

That said. I have wanted to try pro-tow for a while.

Sure. Lose your upper speed range and any hope of releasing with both hands on the basetube and put a couple of Weghorst releases in front of your face where you can easily see them.

Mike Bomstad

Everyone who lives dies, yet not everyone who dies, has lived. We take these risks not to escape life, but to prevent life escaping us.

Can't see anything wrong with that plan!

I dig the simplicity of the rig...

Me too! That's the FIRST THING we wanna consider when we're looking at aerotow releases. After we've determined that it's simple, and therefore deserving of our love, we can look it other issues - like load capacity and accessibility.

...and have heard many who prefer the technique for the control it gives.

Yeah, whenever you're considering hang gliding equipment you should really focus on the people who've had really good experiences with it.

Still though, if I get knocked off center at twenty feet and I'm screaming towards lockout I just don't like to think of letting go of the bar at that point to release.

I really wouldn't worry much about that. It's what the pros use and they have very few problems along those lines.

We've heard from a couple already and it's quite interesting. Care to add more? Anyone else have thoughts on this aspect?

Nah. Most of the people you really oughta be listening to are dead, everybody hates my guts and puts me on ignore lists (I was banned immediately after the second thread below and second place only has 68 percent of my score), and you're not listening to Zack either.

EDIT:
I did a google search on this site and came up with a couple of great threads directed at my question. I also realize this is ripe territory for trolls. Sorry.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16277
Towing: Pro-tow vs. Keel assisted
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Regarding that second thread... Is it great despite the troll - or because of him? Just curious.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25435
Raunchy Day At The Ridge + Release Failure

Outback - 2012/03/09 02:43:51 UTC
Norfolk, Virginia

I remember reading a few posts previously about LMFP type release being extremely difficult to pull under loads. Makes me nervous about flying with one, although I had a few of lockouts myself and didn't experience these problems.

This happened to me. Second flight on Sport 2 and did not release on first go after lockout. Was going for a mile but locked out around 2600. I could feel it going and by then the pressure started to build. You see me clearly in the video at 4:20 pull the LMFP release and nothing. The second time I really yanked it and it released. Not good though... I can't help think if I was close to the ground when lockout started, the three seconds that passed before it released the second time could be three seconds too late! I used the brake lever style release on the downtube and never had a problem but when I got my glider I also bought this new release.

4:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC1yrdDV4sI

26-41804
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2911/14840042073_792c31a351_o.png


http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3842/14633550919_57af1df255_o.png
32-42004

Yeah, for the purpose of the exercise, you got killed but good. And the assholes running the operation at Currituck who allowed you to go up with that piece of shit in the first place would've written the fatality report and talked about how you waited too long to release because you thought you could fix things and didn't wanna start over.

By the way...

Do you think there's the REMOTEST possibility that this is EXACTLY what was going on with this piece of shit during Roy Messing's 2009/08/31 fatal lockout at Whitewater?

Really appreciate the excellent documentation and video, dude. Maybe this'll help get Matt's and USHGA's asses get sued out of existence sometime. Think I'll try to find some of Roy's family and share this stuff with them.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25435
Raunchy Day At The Ridge + Release Failure

cliver - 2012/03/09 17:24:51 UTC
Toronto

Hey Terry

I think the SteevRelease is a better step - shackle releases are suspect...

And of course there's no reason whatsoever to question the performance of Steve's side loaded pin - 'cause he's a tug pilot.

I have seen shackles and cables bind under pressure for all sorts of reasons.

And Steve uses much better cables than Wallaby, Quest, and Lookout - so I can't see that we'd be having any problems along those lines.

It won't matter why when you need it.

Maybe we should look around and see if there's anything out there that doesn't bind under PRESSURE for any sorts of reasons.

We should all use a Linknife - just for the extra what if?

Where are you going to use it and how are you going to configure it? The problems in this discussion are all consequences of the actuation system and you're not addressing the actuation system.

I Protow just because it works for me BUT, low and slow it could be bad trying to release and having a hand off the bar

Don't worry...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
by Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny

You'll be fine.

I use two Protow releases...

Meaning bent pin shit. Under what pressure did you test them?

...I think I will get a Linknife as well.

Great. Do let us know how it works out.