Releases

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
Post Reply
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21242
Mouth Release - Where / How can I get one ???
Zack C - 2011/03/15 12:49:57 UTC
Houston

You beat me to it, Chad...I was about to post this exact topic. I currently use a Lookout release also but due to events I'll spare you all I may have to aerotow launch on foot rather than off a dolly in the near future and the Lookout release isn't going to cut it. Since foot launching involves transitioning hands a mouth release would be ideal.

I'd also like to use one for platform towing if this can be done...I'm not aware of any platform tow release that doesn't require the pilot to take a hand off the bar.

I suck mechanically, though, so I'd really like something off-the-shelf...
Brad Barkley - 2011/03/15 14:04:49 UTC
Frostburg

I could find only this:

http://ozreport.com/docs/squidlinks.htm
Where do you fly? Steve lives in DC and was using that thing every tow at Ridgely last I knew.
Al Dicken (aqua) - 2011/03/15 14:04:49 UTC
British Columbia

I thought about using a Linknife release with a short bungy, and holding a tab between the teeth. Just an idea, never tried it. As I have a truck driver / air brake license, the beauty of a system operating on the lack of pressure (etc) is interesting.

I use a Finsterwalder Koch 2-step release; a fine piece of equipment, but one needs to take a hand off the control frame to activate it.

The one release problem I had was with a different mechanical release and a dyslectic rookie (scooter) winch operator. I was signalling "less pressure! less pressure!" and he's giving more and more. There was alot of tension on the release, and it wouldn't let go. Three times I had to take my hand off the control frame trying to release. No fun, just about s--- myself! All the while I was swearing and yelling! A mouth release would have worked like a dream!
You could make the Linknife work - as long as you didn't do anything insane like using a bungee as a lanyard. Use Dacron (low stretch) leechline or better for this and all lanyards.

EXTREMELY disturbing about the Koch two stage. I guess you're right, Zack. You really CAN'T trust anyone in this sport - not even the Germans. I never load tested the thing myself. I knew it wasn't very mechanically efficient but it still looked like overkill. What tension were you pulling and what weak link were you using.

Mike, you better get in touch with that guy not a million miles away.
Dennis Wood (peanuts) - 2011/03/15 14:36:55 UTC
Suffolk, Virginia

looks like a way to get rid of my other two teeth. now if someone would just come up with a transportation aid, perhaps round and with the ability to rotate around a shaft or axle through its center...
You wanna good way to get rid of teeth? Talk to Holly and use and use one of those very very reliable bent pin releases Steve Wendt and Davis sell.

Well, she didn't actually lose any teeth but it took fifteen hours of surgery to replace and repair just about everything else in her face. Try giving it a shot with an open face helmet.

Best o' luck.
Chad May - 2011/03/15 14:39:01 UTC

I tried to contact the "squidlinks" guy... wrote him an email via Oz. He may have never got it... don't know what became of his effort.

Yeah, a "dead man's switch" as Red calls it, seems only logical. And we don't have enough hands as it is in HG. Feet are busy doing something else... kinda only leaves our mouth.

I wonder if on some planet, octopii have learned to fly... bet they don't have this problem... I can't believe I just wrote that... it rhymes anyway.

For all those who fear accidental release... my understanding is that you should always be prepared for this anyway. Or?

Now back to work.
I don't think Steve (Kinsley) has been on the Oz rag for half a dozen years. But if you get in touch with me I can probably put you in touch with him.

Yeah, it's a dead man's switch. It's beautiful.

Octopii... Yeah they got lotsa legs - but not that many "i"s.

Yeah, you SHOULD always be prepared for an "accidental" release.

But there's no more such thing as an "accidental" release as there is an "accident".

Or? Forget "or". Work on "even if". There can be situations in which you can be as bloody well "prepared" as possible and you're still gonna be dead. We killed two young pilots in 1996 that way - and didn't learn shit from either one. Keep fearing them and make sure you never have one - even if they're almost never BFDs.
Casey Cox - 2011/03/15 16:10:52 UTC

I don't know about safer. I would not like my head immobile.
The Herald on Sunday - 2009/01/10

Hurt hang glider pilot joked bravely with friends after a crash landing, unaware that his injuries were fatal.

But he began losing consciousness as he awaited the arrival of paramedics.

Aucklander Stephen Elliot, 48, was taking part in the Forbes Flatland Hang Gliding Championship in Sydney last Saturday (2009/01/03) when he landed (dolly launched) badly.

Elliot shattered four bones in his neck and damaged several blood vessels that supplied blood to the brain. He was flown to the Royal North Shore Hospital in Sydney and put into an induced coma but died on Monday.

Police said the Australian Transport Safety Bureau was investigating the accident.
If you really wanna get your head immobilized then use a Davis Release. Otherwise put up with two hundred feet's worth of not being able to look behind you like an owl. Then if you wanna look behind you like an owl lock it and spit out the trigger line.

Your head isn't immobile. You can look around as much as you need to. But you have to be the one to decide what your priorities are gonna be.
Zack C
Site Admin
Posts: 292
Joined: 2010/11/23 01:31:08 UTC

Re: Releases

Post by Zack C »

Tad Eareckson wrote:EXTREMELY disturbing about the Koch two stage.
He said "the one release problem I had was with a different mechanical release." I took this to mean he's only had one release problem ever and it wasn't with a Koch release. I asked on the original thread for clarification.

Zack
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Oops. I totally misread/blindspotted the first sentence of that paragraph. Deepest apologies to the Koch two stage and Fatherland. Thanks much for the catch.

I can now stop thinking about how to use a couple of trees, some rope, a winch, and a hydraulic cylinder to load test it and go back to assuming that the DHV or somebody did the job.

But I'd still like to see a more efficient version - the bridle connection points could/should be a lot closer to the pivot ends (fulcra) of the pins.
Zack C
Site Admin
Posts: 292
Joined: 2010/11/23 01:31:08 UTC

Re: Releases

Post by Zack C »

Tad Eareckson wrote:You could make the Linknife work - as long as you didn't do anything insane like using a bungee as a lanyard.
This would require jerking my head to release, right? Do you think it would work even for foot launching? I've never seen a Linknife configuration in person.

Also, can you give a brief description of your Remote Barrel Release? The first time you mentioned it I thought you were talking about your two-point release, but I see now it's a single-point release. I don't understand how it's triggered.

Thanks,
Zack
MikeLake
Posts: 65
Joined: 2011/02/24 20:07:11 UTC

Re: Releases

Post by MikeLake »

There are several flavours of the 'Koch type' but the genuine Koch is by far the best engineered I've seen. You could swing several bodies from one and it would release with minimal effort.

There are good clones and sh*t rig ones.
I use a clone that is even more clunky chunky than the real thing, but the actual release mechanism is precise and reliable.

I've been told of bad examples where the pins were bent nearly 90%. Relatively small amounts of friction would cause the rope to cling to the pin.
Other examples had levers that were a bit flexible and under load would hit the stop before release.

The rigid precise under over concept can suffer from sh*t rig builders just like any other release.

How hard is it to load up a release to see if it works? Why are some sh*t rig release builders unable to perform this simple test? It's not rocket science.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Stuff in your teeth tends not to be suitable for blowing a two point release.

One point stuff with leechline lanyards tends to be good for blowing secondary / one point releases only if you're dolly launching 'cause you get some major geometry problems foot launching.

The only good way to foot launch behind a tug with two hands on the control bar that I've seen or can envision is to go one point and use cable like the Russians and Paul Farina do. I wouldn't advise pursuing anything else.

If you're dolly launching the Linknife should work as a quick and cheap solution. The more perpendicular to the bridle assembly it is the more effective it's gonna be 'cause it will require less movement and cut more efficiently. Of course that means you maximize the length of bridle that's gotta feed through the tow ring but that's better than nothing and statistically shouldn't be a problem with a good bridle.

The Remote Barrel Release...

I NEVER liked the spinnaker shackle. In 1994 I didn't realize they had already been in use in Florida and was doing a major lightbulb thing at a display case at Annapolis Performance Sailing. I knew I was gonna take it home and make it work as an AT release but I wasn't happy with either the notch or the reverse taper - which is what was gonna kill Robin in a bit over a decade from then.

From the time I started using straight pin barrel releases as secondaries I really wanted to incorporate one as a primary but had the problem that the barrel needed to be pulled straight back opposite from the direction of the tension. After Robin I got to serious thinking and realized that all I had to do was build it off of a pulley.

After working with Steve on his multi-string concept in 2005 I realized I could use at my shoulder the mechanism I had at the keel and put the lanyard in my teeth. It's the same mechanism 'cept with an extended base so's you can minimize the bridle length. It's harder to make than the Four-String and it doesn't have the dead man's switch capability but there are no problems associated with setting somebody up with one.

BUT...

Don't start thinking of ANY of these options as patches for having your dollies confiscated. Lockouts can and frequently do hit so hard and fast that even with buttons under our fingers we humans can't process information and react quickly enough to get off before the horizon snaps to vertical. Anytime you hear someone talking about needing to train pilots to get off at the first sign of trouble you know you're listening to an idiot.

You can maybe do a little better if you just need to relax your bite on something but I doubt it would be enough of a difference to notice on a video.

Mike,
I've been told of bad examples where the pins were bent nearly 90%.
And this is a problem? I've always been under the impression that bent pins are more reliable and harder to hook up wrong.
Relatively small amounts of friction would cause the rope to cling to the pin.
Why not just reverse taper them the way we do with the spinnaker shackle gate? Then you could dispense with the friction altogether.
Other examples had levers that were a bit flexible and under load would hit the stop before release.
Why not just use bicycle brake actuators designed to be used on the curves of drop handlebars on the straight tubing of down and basetubes? Then you could have good stiff levers and still have them bottom out before making anything happen?
How hard is it to load up a release to see if it works? Why are some sh*t rig release builders unable to perform this simple test?
Ralph Sickinger - 2000/08/26 22:18:20 UTC UTC

I pulled on the release (hard), but nothing happened! After the second failed attempt to release, I thought about releasing from the secondary, but before I could move my hand the tug stalled and started to fall...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4049
Towing errata
Bill Bryden - 2004/04/01 16:20:18 UTC

Some aerotow releases, including a few models from prominent schools, have had problems releasing under high tensions. You must VERIFY through tests that a release will work for the tensions that could possibly be encountered. You better figure at least three hundred pounds to be modestly confident.

Maybe eight to ten years ago I got several comments from people saying a popular aerotow release (with a bicycle type brake lever) would fail to release at higher tensions. I called and talked to the producer sharing the people's experiences and concerns. I inquired to what tension their releases were tested but he refused to say, just aggressively stated they never had any problems with their releases, they were fine, goodbye, click. Another person tested one and found it started getting really hard to actuate in the range of only eighty to a hundred pounds as I vaguely recall. I noticed they did modify their design but I don't know if they ever really did any engineering tests on it. You should test the release yourself or have someone you trust do it. There is only one aerotow release manufacturer whose product I'd have reasonable confidence in without verifying it myself, the Wallaby release is not it.
Matt Taber - 2009/07/12

The primary release may fail at any time; this is why a secondary release (which is infinitely more likely to fail at any time - see below) must be used on all tows.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..
Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC
Cowboy Up Hang Gliding
Jackson Hole

Most of the time. But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
Why the fuck would anyone bother? You can kill as many people as you like with them and it makes ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE with respect to what you can sell - and that's the ONLY thing that matters.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21242
Mouth Release - Where / How can I get one ???
Dennis Wood - 2011/03/15 19:30:31 UTC

i heerd tell of folks what put the release lever down there on the base tube instead of up yonder on the downtube. and then there's BAD THAD...
And all this time I was thinking that it was a broken shift key. Looks like it was pure stupidity all along. Big surprise.
Jason Dyer - 2011/03/16 02:32:27 UTC
Alberta

I have complete plans for this release. I forget where I found them...
http://ozreport.com/10.061
Mouth piece release
Image
...but I'm pretty sure it's open source. Is this what your looking for? I can post the rest.

Image
CinCas - 2011/03/16 05:29:06 UTC

hahaha, that is so funny i can recognize buddy's carpet in this photo. If i remember correctly we made this release 4-5 years ago. bit bulky but worked ok just had some little issues in subzero conditions at first.

i'm attaching some photos with releases that i have. small one we bought from russian guy that had his add on internet.(not aeros), very neat, small releases made from aviation grade metal. here are some links to his website. check some of his other creations as well. cool stuff.

http://www.e1.ru/fun/photo/view_album.php?id=32439
http://www.deltazar.ru/image/tid/47
Image
Image
Chad May - 2011/03/16 06:06:06 UTC

thanks everyone
I'm glad for all the responses...
I hope we have more input.
I'll have more to say later (it's late).
Jim Gaar - 2011/03/16 14:02:35 UTC
Roeland Park, Kansas

All of our PL releases could be reached and activated without letting go of the CB.

Some were rope and our current one is an electric push button with pull string BU. We never had any issue with taking our hand off the CB with a PL as you rock back and lift off pretty easy and slow.

I like the idea of a mouth release as a total BU for FL behind a payout rig but that makes a lot of bridle parts and stuff to leave hanging ones chest!
So whose baby was this? I know bloody well it wasn't yours - you never had an original idea in your entire useless life. Hell, I'm amazed that you were even capable of taking advantage or someone else's original idea.
Chad May - 2011/03/17 04:29:29 UTC

Linas, aka CinCas, so kindly sold me a mouth release that he's not using, and he's sending this to me via mail.

And, Tad gave me a call and he's a wellspring of knowledge on towing... and someone willing to think outside the box.

I'll be sure to let you all know how this works for me. I have some ideas to try that I won't take time now, but maybe if I get to experiment I can share the results.

If I can't improve on current releases, then at least I can make releasing less intimidating. But, I do think we have much improvement still to make on towing technology. I just don't know much yet beyond that suspicion.

Sooooo.... flappy heights everyone!
1. Guard that thing with your life.
2. It's probably a pretty good mechanism but:
- test it to make sure that it easily functions to three hundred pounds
- rig it so's it's on one end of a bridle to cut the load in half
Zack C - 2011/03/17 04:38:34 UTC

Aqua,
What kind of release was it?
Jim,
Electric button? Sweet. Do you guys make these? Are they commercially available?
Told ya the solution for this would be electrical.
Al Dicken - 2011/03/17 13:51:44 UTC

The release that gave me the scare was actually a (sort of) copy of the Koch 2 release made by another pilot. The genuine Koch is a really precision DHV certified item. The quality of this unit is truly apparent. Yes, one needs to remove a hand from the bar to activate it, but it works!

I'm sure a mouth release would be safer, but would caution against experimenting with an unproven system. The Aeros release looks super-nice, but I need a 2-stage release for FL towing.

Electric? I'd have to see it proven fail-safe.
1. Yeah, if you wanna fuck up a good design from a good engineer just give it to a pilot to rework.

2. DHV certified? We don't need no steenking certification. We've got Head Trauma. And if Head Trauma pronounces something "very very reliable" it's "very very reliable" and it doesn't matter if it fails over half the time and kills someone every now and then. Certification is for fags.

3. Works? It couldn't possibly work. Head Trauma tells us that it's impossible to design a release that works. And it obviously doesn't 'cause - like He says - if it did everybody would be using it already.

4. What do they call them? Chest crushers?

5. YOU DON'T NEED TO CAUTION AGAINST EXPERIMENTING WITH AN "UNPROVEN" SYSTEM 'CAUSE YOU "EXPERIMENT" ON THE GROUND WHERE NOBODY CAN GET HURT. AFTER THAT IT'S PROVEN AND YOU CAN SEND IT INTO THE AIR WITH NO WORRIES.

6. Let's say an electric release CAN'T be proven failsafe. Let's say it only works four out of five times. BFD. Pull the manual release on the other side and you're no worse off than you'd have been otherwise.

7. Hang glider parachutes are anything BUT failsafe. But no one under broken spinning wreckage has ever wished he didn't have one to at least make an attempt.
Jim Gaar - 2011/03/17 14:31:06 UTC
and someone willing to think outside the box.
Thinks outside sumpthin for sure! :shock:

The electric button is a custom job but an easy one. It's just an old Cadillac electric door lock opener, attached to the release hook. Push to unlock and away you go! 8-)
1. What the fuck would somebody like you know about thinking?
2. How long since this technology started going up?
3. If the answer is more than a week how come we're just hearing about it now?

OOPS.

Never mind Zack. Just realized... This asshole isn't talking about a release to blow you off tow... He's talking about a release to blow you off the back of the truck. Jesus H. Christ.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

The following is intended for Zack regarding some AT equipment I'm setting him up with but I'm posting it here 'cause most of it's broadly applicable.

Got everything pretty much ready to go - a bit behind schedule. A few words on it...

The Barrel Releases are a pair. There are subtle (mirror image) differences between port (red) and starboard (green). They have top/bottom / inboard/outboard sides and the Pins are folded against the outboard side and swing outboard in a horizontal plane when released. See:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/

Secondary Bridle Assembly
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306152861/
Image

and ignore the Four-String or, in the Cache set:
READ ME - Secondary Bridle Assembly - Twin Barrels
where I faked it with Photoshop.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8313526097/
Image

I have colored tracer thread on the top run of leechline just aft of the Pin eye. Fold the Pin back against the side on which the thread is most visible. You can best see what I'm talking about with:

Barrel Release - Construction
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8307303546/
Image

...and...

Barrel Release - Construction - Port
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8307336598/
Image

Don't force the Barrel all the way fore when engaging a weak or Bridle Link. Leave some space as in:

Barrel Release - 400 - 1
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8323355616/
Image

Unless you prefer the Wichard 2470 snap shackles ($35 apiece) I'll ship with a pair of eight inch 220 KG stainless quick links ($5 apiece) to connect with the AT tow loops on your harness.

If the tow loop webbing is in the horizontal plane leave the Adjusters Lark's Headed onto the connectors.

If vertical and you're going to a:
- quick link eliminate the Lark's Head and just go through the eye;
- snap shackle tell me and I'll swap in Adjusters designed for that orientation.

The Bridle Links are Eight and Twelve, 288 and 432 pounds, one and two point respectively. As I've said before DO NOT use a Bridle Link in a two point configuration with the heat shrink Fairings on. Pull them and put them somewhere. If you're towing one point it's better to have them on 'cause they protect the stitching and make the unit easier to identify.

The Primary Bridle is ten feet long and constructed of about 24 feet of (I'm pretty sure but not positive 'cause they changed the weave since I picked up a small stash and I couldn't compare) eighth inch Samson AmSteel (Dyneema) line - 2500 pounds.

I couldn't find anything in which I could splice a triple overlap like I wanted to do (and was able using the two thousand pound Spectra they use at Ridgely) but I came up with a Plan B and I'm not sure that it's not the better way to go anyway. I brought the two ends as closely together as possible and covered the "joint" with an inch and a half of heat shrink to maintain something resembling uniform stiffness. The heat shrink can slide so should be checked periodically to ensure that it's centered over the joint

Nevertheless, although I've done my best to minimize the risk, as we've discussed, this thing is NOT designed to work with a "backup" release brought into play after a primary failure. Even if the bottom half were as perfect as the top there's always the possibility that it could wrap and that opens up all kinds of options for getting killed. And the bottom half is NOT as perfect as the top.

If I were flying with some piece of junk which was capable of failure (which I wouldn't) and experienced one I'd roll to blow the weak link if I were high enough. I can think of lotsa other tricks that would almost certainly work but could be catastrophic if they didn't. Don't forget that you have a parachute - I've been to one tow funeral that could very likely have been prevented if that option had been considered.

The Bridle is constructed such that the top and bottom eyes are perpendicular to each other. The top eye has installed in it a single loop weak link. The eye and weak link are in a horizontalish plane. The bottom eye has a sailmaker's thimble installed in it and is in a vertical plane. Both eyes are the same size and a Thimble can be popped in or out.

The weak link is formed of a 140 millimeter length of 200 pound Greenspot using a Fisherman's Knot. It's installed using a Double Lark's Head such that the Fisherman's Knot is centered on the top side. For a first / one time installation engage the weak link (Fisherman's Knot up) with the primary release, pay the Bridle out so's there's no twists, then bring the bottom end back without twisting it and engage the bottom eye (Thimble) with the Bridle Link.

With the exceptions of not releasing the bottom end first and not using the Bridle Link Fairings when flying two point nothing above is of much importance but just represents the optimal/smoothest way to configure.

Care and feeding...

Best not to demo the Barrel Releases under higher than normal tow tensions. They'll last forever using them just for normal tow tensions but the leechline at the front end tends to get beat up and fuzzed during recoil when you get ridiculous.

The base materials - Dacron and Dyneema - are all very UV resistant but the nylon stitching - which holds them together and defines the Bridle Links - isn't. Don't leave stuff baking in the sun in setup and breakdown areas. Keep your harness and this equipment stowed in the bag when not in use (which you should be and probably are doing anyway).
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/7.004
Death in the tow paddock
Davis Straub - 2003/01/05 07:00
Deniliquin, New South Wales

Hikobe Junko was killed today in the tow paddock after locking out during a car tow. She was on the left most car towing lane, about four lanes to the right of our aero towing lane. After locking out, she headed out of control toward our lane and almost hit Elsa Gleason who was helping Terry Presley to get ready to tow. She also almost hit Terry coming in 12 feet over him downwind.

She smashed into the ground next to our lane and could not be revived.

Car towing is relatively susceptible to lock out, but pilots who are carefully trained in the procedures know to pull the release and not try to save the tow. Save their life instead. It appears as though Hikobe did not pull her release when she got into trouble.

This kind of accident is quite rare, although getting off kilter on a car tow is not. Hitting a dust devil low has happened and I've witnessed the carnage that that can create. Pilots need to put small flags down the tow strip to check the wind.

Pilots also need to be trained to release as soon as anything goes wrong especially when they are low, as there is little time to fix the problem. Once you release you need to pull in immediately to reduce your angle of attack and build up speed in order to be able to get the glider under control and into the wind.

Our sympathies go out to Phil Pritchard and Hikobe's family.
http://ozreport.com/7.005
Correction re article on Hikobe
Davis Straub - 2003/01/06 23:00

Apparently she did not ever release. She was car towing and using a dollie. There may have been some cross wind from the right (she locked out to the left). When launching (half an hour before Hikobe) I experienced a bit of right hand side cross wind, and waited about 30 seconds until the wind died down and straightened up before launching. We had five wind streamers down the tow lane to indicate any disturbances, like thermals coming toward us.
Car towing is relatively susceptible to lock out...
Relative to what? Why? Do we get to hear anything about what was between the car and glider?
...but pilots who are carefully trained in the procedures know to pull the release and not try to save the tow. Save their life instead.
Right Davis, the problem was that she wasn't TRAINED to pull the release. She was so focused on and committed to saving the tow - even at the expense of her life - that she steadfastly REFUSED to even CONSIDER pulling the release - all the way to impact. What an idiot. Total Darwin material.

http://ozreport.com/pub/fingerlakesaccident.shtml
Image
Image

So why didn't you pull EITHER of your releases? Did you have a nice tow? Guess you weren't trained very well.
This kind of accident is quite rare...
Yeah, it's been almost three whole years - just six days short - since Mike Nooy was mostly killed a couple of lanes over on a surface tow at one of your little New South Wales funfests. And it will be another two whole years - plus four days - before Robin buys it at Hay. And then a year and ten days before James Simpson gets it at Tocumwal. After that just sixteen days short of three years before Steve Elliot at Forbes. Good thing these aren't quite common occurrences.
Hitting a dust devil low has happened...
So was there a dust devil?
...and I've witnessed the carnage that that can create.
Yeah, it's freakin' amazing how much carnage you've witnessed - and been responsible for.
Pilots need to put small flags down the tow strip to check the wind.
Maybe the meet organizers and tow operators should be responsible for that.
We had five wind streamers down the tow lane to indicate any disturbances, like thermals coming toward us.
So you HAD streamers. So either nobody bothered to look at or heed them or the issue is irrelevant.
Pilots also need to be trained to release as soon as anything goes wrong especially when they are low, as there is little time to fix the problem.
Right. Training is DEFINITELY the key here. And you should ALWAYS release as soon as ANYTHING goes wrong - especially when you're low. And there will NEVER be an immediately lethal compromise of control that will result from taking a hand off to hunt around for the release actuator. And as soon as you're off you're definitely gonna be able to fix whatever little problem you were having at the time - it's in the rulebook.
Bill Bryden - 2000/02

The rapidity of the lockout was absolutely stunning to those observing the event. The glider went from being banked approximately 25 degrees and angled roughly 45 degrees to the towline, to being rolled over and pointed down in less than two to three seconds after the rollover.
If ONLY these people would listen to us when we're trying to train them.
Once you release you need to pull in immediately to reduce your angle of attack and build up speed in order to be able to get the glider under control and into the wind.
Yeah Hikobe, once you release don't forget to pull in immediately to reduce your angle of attack and build up speed in order to be able to get the glider under control and into the wind. Gotta get that speed built up.
Apparently she did not ever release. She was car towing and using a dollie.
What kind? Barbie? So what was she using for a release? Where was the actuator? What kind of bridle? Static or payout? How much tension? How much line was out? To what altitude did she max out? What was the tow angle? Was the bridle in contact with the basetube when things started going south? What was the glider and weak link rating? How much tow experience did she have? How many hours? What was her rating? What did witnesses say about the ribbons or air? If things sucked why did her driver start rolling? Why aren't we hearing all the weak link hysteria we will after Robin gets killed?

Aw, fuckit. That stuff's boring. What we'd all really like to have is a couple of dozen paragraphs describing who did what on today's task and some detailed track logs to illustrate things.
Steve Kinsley - 2003/01/05 14:37:59 UTC

I also think it is important to adjust the release line slack so that it requires a tug of less than a foot to effect a release. If you are in a turn and looking at a lock out, taking your hand off the bar and making some huge arm movement to get off is not something you want to do. At the same time, a short pull will often mean an inadvertent release when the bridle moves down - from in front of to below you. I have a handful of slack and release some as I climb out above the truck. If I remember. Oops. Dang.

Terry (Spencer - who survived an unhooked launch attempt at Dickey Ridge on an outing with Steve exactly sixteen months prior but will fatally crash at Quest sinking out at the Flytec Championship eleven days after this post) has his release line rigged so that a sideways pull automatically releases you. I think this is an excellent concept but I have to ask Terry to set it up for me every time.

For aero I think you folks who use two barrel releases instead of the bicycle brake could get in trouble if you hit something low. I know that the hand movement to get off isn't all that much but it is more than just swatting the release handle and requires some precision. I also think a lockout might be more likely towing from the pilot only.

If I have the energy, I think I will copy Tad's release. Check it out if you have the chance.
Marc Fink- 2003/01/05 22:26:51 UTC

Real hard to generalize about what the best towing/release method is. I just started towing off the shoulder straps last year with two barrel releases and so far have found the system to be easier to use with my Laminar - much less gear and strings flying around. Also, I find that generally tracking is easier going off the shoulders than with the two point (ie bicycle) so I don't agree that you're more likely to get into a lockout with the direct shoulder attachment points.
Hugh McElrath - 2003/01/06 03:09:10 UTC

I have the kind if primary release that is a loop of cord around my right hand - just takes an inch or so of inward sliding movement without removing my hand from the bar. Is that what you are talking about?
Steve Kinsley - 2003/01/06 14:59:36 UTC

I assume that is an aero release. Yes. I think that is good. Guess I should have added IMHO to my barrel release view. A lot of folks feel very comfortable with them and with towing only from the shoulders. Million years ago we towed out of a field near where some old codger named Lester Billings lived. Cosmos trike - shoulder tow. We all survived. But there were a lot of towing accidents nationally at that time and a guy named Donnell Hewett explained in a series of articles in the mag about why a two point system was better in terms of avoiding lock outs. A lot of us pretended to understand the physics. Anyway the "Skyting" bridle is pretty much what we use today - towing from the keel and the pilot.

That innovation seemed to reduce accidents. However, I think a much more important factor was a concurrent change in procedure/viewpoint. The dominant view at the time was that you tried as hard as you could to stay on tow. "The rope is your friend". All the hot shots stayed on tow. You might break a weak link but only wimps release. And then it changed. All of a sudden the dominant paradigm became "If you see anything at all you don't like, get off. Discuss it on the ground". An obvious improvement.
Real hard to generalize about what the best towing/release method is.
C'mon Marc...
- Put all the tension on the pilot. What are the chances he's ever gonna be in a situation in which he's gonna need to really stuff the bar?
- Use a bent pin for your release. If it made sense to use a straight one why isn't everyone doing it that way?
- Put the brake lever on your downtube 'cause that's where it fits best.
- Never put anything in your teeth. Only commie scumbags put things in their teeth.
- Always do whatever the pro's say - after all, they're the pros.

Corrections, Steve...

That brief introduction of aerotow to the DC area wasn't until 1986/08/01. (It got cut short on the first afternoon when Jon Leak's gas tank came loose and went through the prop (and pieces of the prop came loose and went through the wing).)

Donnell's first article was published in the 1981/04 magazine and the other three of the series were deliberately quashed until after Skyting caught on. They were resumed in 1983/08.

Donnell wasn't about two point. Virtually all towing prior was two point - 'cept the points were control frame apex and basetube. Donnell was about making the bottom point the pilot - which was good - and putting two thirds of the tow tension on him - which was pretty much useless.

The Norfolk Hang Gliding Club was the guys who got it a lot righter.

Yeah, EVERYBODY PRETENDED to understand the physics - but NOBODY actually did 'cause nobody actually read what he was saying and the alleged physics was bullshit. Donnell was also the patron saint of shitrigged releases, auto-correcting tow gliders, one handed emergency glider control, and three quarter G weak links.

Nobody uses the Skyting Bridle today - well, nobody who has the slightest grip on reality anyway. Peter Birren remains a huge fan however. Everybody goes either all pilot or fifty/fifty pilot and glider.
That innovation seemed to reduce accidents.
Seemed to? Real hard to say. The roll instability was dramatically reduced but the quality of the equipment was so abysmal that it probably more than compensated and the certifiably insane approach to weak links started crashing gliders left and right.
However, I think a much more important factor was a concurrent change in procedure/viewpoint. The dominant view at the time was that you tried as hard as you could to stay on tow. "The rope is your friend". All the hot shots stayed on tow. You might break a weak link but only wimps release. And then it changed. All of a sudden the dominant paradigm became "If you see anything at all you don't like, get off. Discuss it on the ground". An obvious improvement.
This pretty much simply didn't happen. Control frame towing was unstable as hell, everybody knew it, it was mostly done over water, there was a huge emphasis on keeping hands on the control bar and having the actuator right under one of them, and the available equipment - if not the tension distribution - was pretty good.

It WAS understood that you could easily be killed when something between you and the thing that was pulling you broke but after the Skyting newsletter circulated for a year or two everybody went irreversibly stupid on that issue.
An obvious improvement.
Not so much for Brad Anderson, Eric Aasletten, Bill Bennett, Mike Del Signore, Rob Richardson, Mike Haas, Arlan Birkett, Jeremiah Thompson, and Nuno Fontes.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21377
AT several Questions
Antoine Saraf - 2011/03/30 13:33:54 UTC

Hi,
need some answers please:

-Are carabineers still used at the end of the tow line or perclude cause they are more likely snagged than the rings ?
posted in 2008: http://ozreport.com/1209046540

-Locking or not (carabineers)? (front wire wrapping ?) Which size? pics?

-Does snag exist with a 1m long pro tow briddle (4mm Vectran)

-Why are the briddle sold with pro tow so long ?

I can AT tandem with V-briddle:
-I use a 4mm spliced Vectran (Polyester THT) (1668kg) but I read that "thinner" should be better as they don't wrap around the ring so likely. How thick ?
-Which risk using a 2,5mm Vectran briddle (580kg) ?
-I've got more than 1 foot as the forward point on the keel where is attached the release and have very light bar pressure. Is there a pb with ?

Thanks++
Davis Straub - 2011/03/30 14:57:43 UTC

1) Yes.

2) Not locking. Quite small, cheap. I will look for my pictures.

3) Unlikely. Sometimes they use leaders. They dispensed with this this year in Forbes after only doing it once the year before. Never used at Quest Air. Some pilots want to use leaders (with rings at the end).

4) The Protow bridles that I sell don't seem to be very long. How long is long?

5) I have never heard any discussion about whether thinner or thicker bridles wrap easier or not. The thinner bridles that I sell are not for tandem use. I also recommend changing the thin bridles at least once a year as they wear out quicker. They are designed for competition pilots and are not meant to last forever. Different gliders and hang points require different forward position for the point where you pull from on the keel. If you experience very light bar pressures on tow, you can just move back the point on the keel.
Antoine Saraf - 2011/03/30 15:20:27 UTC

Thanks Davis,

On your website you can find at the end the evocation of thinner Spectra more suitable than Vectran...

http://ozreport.com/1209046540
I sell a bridle made from very thin Spectra or Vectran. Jim prefers the thicker Spectra, thinking that it is less likely to wrap around the ring. Our experience with the thin Vectran or Spectra is that it has not wrapped around the carabineer or ring.
Is this really confirmed ?

On the same text, just above:
Jim discussed with me the bridles that he made from hollow spectra. He said that one doesn't want to have a build up of a bump on the spectra material where it is spliced (see the HGFA accident report linked to earlier). What he did to avoid this is splice the spectra line all the way back to the splice on the non released side. This meant that there was no "bump" where the splice ended where it went through the carabineer, as that part of the bridle never went through the carabineer.
What was exactly the matter? I didn't refind the accident report

The snag in Forbes with pro tow: Do you know which kind of briddle? (spectra?), how long it was and if it was a big ring or carabineers?

Carabineers on the tow line: are they the same that we can buy everywhere as keychains !!?

Is it really necessary to turn it in the right way: narrow side at the end as it's written in the same text above?

Thanks++
Hey Antoine,

Go to:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

Page 3, Post 31.

What does John say?

So how come you're talking to an asshole like Davis on a forum "moderated" by an asshole like Jack for assholes like Jack when someone who DOES know what the fuck he's talking about and is pretty widely acknowledged to know what the fuck he's talking about is desperately TRYING to help you over here?
-Does snag exist with a 1m long pro tow briddle (4mm Vectran)
Here, lemme quote from Murphy's Law for ya...
Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong.
OK, is there any part of that that you don't understand? GOOD.
-Why are the briddle sold with pro tow so long ?
Because the people who make them and sell them are total asshole who are totally incapable of understanding any part of Murphy's Law. Still with me?
-I use a 4mm spliced Vectran (Polyester THT) (1668kg) but I read that "thinner" should be better as they don't wrap around the ring so likely. How thick ?
Where did you read crap like that? From some asshole like Davis who sells thin bridles? Does that make the SLIGHTEST bit of sense to you? What do you think is more likely to tangle - a fishing line or a rope?

Lemme quote you from the USHGA Aerotowing Guidelines:
Bridle lines should be from 3/16 to 5/16 inches in diameter. Thinner lines tend to whip around more during release and can thus entangle the towline.
Is there some part of THAT that you don't understand?
-I've got more than 1 foot as the forward point on the keel where is attached the release and have very light bar pressure. Is there a pb with ?
Not unless so you release the bottom end first and the bridle - especially a thin bridle that some shithead like Davis sells you - ties itself to the tow ring. Then you're gonna be freakin' AMAZED how much bar pressure you're gonna have - for a short time anyway. (When was the last time you repacked your parachute? And, while I think of it, what's the French word for "parachute" anyway?)

Davis,
The Protow bridles that I sell don't seem to be very long.
I'm so happy to hear that they don't SEEM to be very long. Just how long are they and why?
How long is long?
If they're long enough so's you can tie an Overhand Knot they're too fucking long (moron).
I have never heard any discussion about whether thinner or thicker bridles wrap easier or not.
Of course you haven't, Davis. Every time anybody starts sounding halfway intelligent on a towing issue you lock the thread down and ban the person - just like Jack and Peter.
The thinner bridles that I sell are not for tandem use.
Cool. I'm so happy to know that you draw the line at killing people two at a time.
They are designed for competition pilots...
Yeah, you really wanna keep that drag down when people are going up behind Dragonflies. A millisecond per thousand feet really starts to add up - and that's a pretty significant issue when you've forced people onto weak links which blow every other tow.
I sell a bridle made from very thin Spectra or Vectran.
The operative words here being "I" and "SELL".
Our experience with the thin Vectran or Spectra is that it has not wrapped around the carabineer or ring.
1. Who exactly is "our"? How many people is that and how much experience?
2. Why don't we look at the experience of Head Trauma and his fellow shitheads?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC

Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.
But yours are thinner - so your failure rate is probably only 85 percent.

Antoine,
Is this really confirmed ?
Have you ever read about a failure on the Oz Report? Well, then OBVIOUSLY it's never happened.
What he did to avoid this is splice the spectra line all the way back to the splice on the non released side.
Yeah, "the non released side". Can't imagine why anyone would want to be able to be able to release BOTH sides. Well I couldn't imagine until Shane was slammed in two and a half months ago.
I didn't refind the accident report.
Yeah, it's pretty tough to refind accident reports in this sport. And when you do they're only about three sentences long and all about "pilot error" (pilot error, of course, never being defined as having bought equipment from some douchebag like Davis or Adam).
Do you know which kind of briddle? (spectra?), how long it was and if it was a big ring or carabineers?
Lemme take a wild guess... Something along the lines of:

http://ozreport.com/goodies.php
---
http://ozreport.com/12.082
Post Reply