miguel wrote:Good to see you back.
Good news on the big sharp rocks! A large bulldozer enlarged and massaged the launch area. No large sharp rocks anymoreNobody wrote:Thanks. Any news on the big sharp rocks from McClure? Mine are getting dull what with all the side wire grindings.
Thermal my ass. He let the bar out and ballooned.Steve Murillo - 2012/06/08 23:01:20 UTC
Manhattan Beach
No doubt the LZ is a challenge, but aren't they all, for various reasons? I'm comfortable with our LZ and the challenges it presents.
Invariably, we can expect to get popped by a thermal or two on final, depending on the time of day. Looks like Mikey got hit by a pretty good one.
At what point did that saying become obsolete?Speed is life, as we used to say.
1. There IS NO transition from flight to ground effect. As a matter of fact, you're flying a whole lot better in ground effect. (And that can be a bad thing for people who aim for spots in middles of fields.)Best we can do is keep the speed on through the transition from flight to ground effect, then bleed it off or run it out, depending on the situation.
Have you ever seen a clumsy deliberate wheel landing on soft grass with the pilot prone and with his hands on the basetube?Doug Martens - 2012/06/09 04:20:08 UTC
Reseda
It should have been a clumsy but safe wheel landing on soft grass.
WHAT thermal?When I watched him get lift from that thermal in slow motion it look liked he was towing up.
Got news for ya buddy...Mike Ivey - 2012/06/09 20:26:12 UTC
Sorry I'm just now getting around to replying to this thread. Typing is still a bit of a chore. Thanks everyone for the tips. I can't provide a final cause any better than most of the attempts here, but I hope I can provide a little insight into what I was thinking during the landing.
My first problem, which Joe Greblo...
Joe Greblo ain't the SOLUTION on this one. Think more Christian Thoreson.Tad Eareckson - 2012/06/06 16:29:57 UTC
And once again we have a glaring textbook illustration of why Joe Greblo's ace student George Stebbins is totally full of shit on this issue.
TURN ferchrisake dude. Being "too" high and "too" fast is NEVER a problem until very late in the game. Make a hard right and hard left....and Jim (from above) confirmed: right from the beginning when I turned to final, I was off my centerline. I was a little worried of overshooting due to my high speed at the time, so I didn't correct it early - I was thinking I might need to use the overshoot ramp. As a result the slight correction back to the right I did make was not enough to get me back on centerline.
Threat assessment.Glenn's point is pretty spot on. At no point during my approach did I really think about the windsock as a potential hazard, so I didn't take it into account when correcting my heading.
The windsock is lined up dead center off the end of a short runway and people aren't being taught a proper appreciation of runway. It's dangerous and the clock has just been reset for another one.A quick aside here: I don't think the windsock adds much additional danger to the LZ where it is now.
Bet it wouldn't have been a tiny fraction as ugly as the way things turned out as things were.Had the windsock not been there, I had roughly equal chances of running it out fine or going over the edge of the LZ into the wash (which would have been really ugly).
Did you really need to make a hand change on this one?Certainly a wide flat LZ would be preferable, but since we have to work with what we've got, I don't think moving the windsock would make a substantial difference in LZ safety.
When I made my hand change my heading was just to the right of the sock.
When I did my hand change the nose popped, though I'm not sure why at this point...
Tad Eareckson - 2012/05/30 03:57:28 UTC
I'm ONLY interested in strategies for not hitting poles. And my call is that if/when we get a good report we're gonna find that Mike:
- was coming into a very wheel friendly putting green;
- was in reasonably good control of the situation before he went upright;
- lost control of the situation upon and as a result of going upright; and
- would be flying next weekend with the same downtubes if he had stayed prone all the way in.
He was coming into a very wheel friendly putting green, was in reasonably good control of the situation before he went upright, lost control of the situation upon and as a result of going upright, and would have been flying the next weekend with the same downtubes if he had stayed prone all the way in.miguel - 2012/06/05 17:13:42 UTC
I see one hand up and one hand down. I see the other hand come up in a controlled manner; Glider does not deviate off course. I think he hit the post for reasons other than loss of control due to being upright.
NO. There WAS NO turbulence, there WAS NO thermal. You were going fast, the glider wants to pitch up, you let it pitch up because it's about thirty times harder to hold the bar back when you're upright than it is when you're prone.I didn't think I caused it directly, maybe turbulence hit at the same time as the hand change - which lead to a delay in my correcting it?
Why did you need to get your fucking feet under you?Although watching the video again, it looks like I pushed out a little bit as I approached the rise, possibly to get some room to get my feet under me?
And gearing yourself for a landing with which required a strong flare when there was ABSOLUTELY NO NEED for a landing which required a strong flare was the FIRST of a series of errors.I can't really remember pushing out intentionally, but it does look like I pushed out a little right before the nose popped. Regardless, the nose pop was accompanied by a rising right wing, which put my heading directly in line with the sock. At this point I was more worried about getting the nose back down to keep from overshooting into the wash so I focused on that, not correcting the turn. After getting the wing back level, I thought I could get it down in time to stop the glider before hitting the windsock (this was the first time I really registered it).
The lack of a strong flare was the last of a series of errors.
Let's not forget the brainwashing that started on Day One at the training hill.I may have been able to stop the glider quicker had I flared hard as soon as my feet touched. But I don't think a good flare alone would have 'fixed' this landing. There were several other mistakes - both in judgement and execution - that caused the crash.
You're not doing fine now. Your brain is still locked into this stupid on-your-feet-at-all-costs landing bullshit. You're a high risk for another arm break.Anyway, I'm doing fine now.
Yeah. Pay attention close attention everyone's transition and flare time. You'll get these landings perfected in no time.Arm is in a sling for at least six more weeks, but otherwise I'm fine. Going to try to make it out to the LZ on Sunday if I can drive out, so hopefully I'll see y'all there.
Steve Davy - 2011/08/10 01:32:55 UTC
OK my turn. Each and every pilot should make his own (hopefully educated) decision regarding the installation and use of wheels.
Wouldn't it be great if pilots could do that without having to face a social stigma?
And hopefully also due to an understanding of how insanely difficult and dangerous standup landings are.Brad Gryder - 2012/06/10 14:13:35 UTC
The "wheels only" HG population is growing due to aging and aerotowing.
Did you make them fully aware of this:All of my students who elected to go for the "wheels only" option were made fully aware of the dangers and limitations of that decision.
statistic and fully explain to them why that's the case?Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC
Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
What percentage of them DO ever go XC?"Don't worry, I don't plan on going XC", was a common response.
1. Absolute BULLSHIT.Eventually though, they do all end up in some strange field some day, usually inverted, but finally fully educated on the matter.
...what percentage come down in places that aren't easily and safely wheel landable?Zack C - 2012/03/29 04:49:14 UTC
Conventional hang gliding wisdom says that you need to develop good foot landing skills because otherwise you'd be severely restricting the places at which you could fly (and XC would be out of the question). Tad has gotten me to question much of hang gliding's conventional wisdom. So far in my hang gliding career, I've landed in 27 LZs. Two were at lakes where I landed on floats...the rest were all places I foot landed. Sixteen were at mountain/hill sites. Three were at the end of XC flights (i.e., not predesignated). Locations ranged from SoCal to Florida, Mexico to Utah. I would not hesitate to land in ANY of them with 8" pneumatic tires. In fact, after last weekend I wouldn't hesitate to land in the vast majority of them with my minuscule plastic wheels. Even tall grass may not be an issue...I think you could do a hard push out and belly flop just fine in tall grass without any wheels. So far, the warnings I've been hearing throughout my career appear to be unfounded.
Like Tad said...it's tough to find a video of someone landing in a place that isn't wheel landable.
Yeah.The dangers of "wheels only" hang gliding should now be included in the Hang 1 and/or Hang 2 curriculum.
Right.Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
The chances of somebody getting seriously injured gearing for a totally unnecessary standup landing at the primary putting green are HUNDREDS of times greater than the chances of him getting hurt at an XC field for want of practice of standup landings.Anything is better than learning through the School of Hard Knocks.
Which is another way of saying that if you DON'T make it out to where Rick landed you're coming down on dangerous terrain.IF you make it out to where Rick landed, there are wheel-landable-areas.
And hang gliding releases are not designed to release. And hang gliding weak links aren't designed to protect the glider from overload. Those are choices the industry and culture have made.Hang gliding harnesses are not designed to be belly-landed.
1. Lotsa people who don't CHOOSE to do it end up doing it anyway.I won't choose to do it unless I have no other safe choices, like landing on my feet.
Seems to be something missing there.If you read this and quote it within five minutes
Yes, new users are in the 'newly registered user' group until they've made five posts. I didn't realize posts from members of that group required moderator approval. I've removed spark from the group so it should no longer be an issue for him. I also reduced the required number of posts to leave the group to two.Tad Eareckson wrote:Sorry there was a delay between your submission of your post and its appearance. We've got an anti-spam setting such that your posts are requiring approval and I can't figure out how to switch it off for you. I suspect after several posts it will deactivate but maybe Zack can speed things up.
They're programmed - as was I - from Day One, Flight One to never under any circumstances even consider it as an option.Hesekiel - 2012/06/12 09:18:58 UTC
Dangers of 'wheels only'
I am a "wheels only" pilot too, and fly exclusively with the powered harness. Tis true, there are dangers, and I had my share of knocks when I started. But done right, it seems to me a safer way to launch and land. It's so easy that it seems like cheating. To see it check 'FLPHG wheel launch' on youtube. Surprises me that not more people are doing it.
