http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..
deltaman - 2011/02/25 18:33:03 UTC
You are low just after AT take off and the tug just break its weaklink and loose the tow rope. So, now, as the hangglider pilot you have to release quickly before the rope possibly hook on anything on the ground, but there is no tension anymore..
Now my question:
Is it possible to release with a barrels (protow release) without any tension except the weight of a part of the tow rope ?..
Here's the problem, Delta...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death
Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/13 19:47:26 UTC
The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.
You may already be dead at this point. (Two people were killed instantly on that one.)
In REAL aviation they REQUIRE a MINIMUM rating on the back end weak link which is HIGHER than shitheads like Jim Rooney "ALLOW" and they REQUIRE the tug end weak link to be stronger than the back end weak link.
Anybody with half a brain or better knows that a hang glider weak link much under one and a half Gs is dangerous as hell but there are only about half a dozen aerotow pilots with half a brain or better so damn near everyone uses a single loops of 130 pound Greenspot on a bridle end - like the one you have in your pictures - 'cause every other clueless asshole uses a single loops of 130 pound Greenspot on a bridle end.
Questions... Why are you using:
- a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot on a bridle end and at what G rating does that put you?
- that particular G rating?
...
Yeah. I thought so.
But when I tell Jim Rooney to go fuck himself and hook up behind him with a one and a half G weak link - which I HAVE DONE - his weak link is still lighter than mine when it's fresh and neither he nor any of the other shitheads at Ridgely give a rat's ass about their weak link so even the 130 pound Greenspot morons end up with the towline not infrequently.
Yeah, you SHOULD be prepared to get and deal with the rope for three reasons...
- The tug may experience an emergency which necessitates him dumping you instantly and without warning to keep him from being killed.
- The towline may fail.
- The front end weak link may fail.
But while there may be a good excuse for One, there's almost no excuse for Two, and there's no fucking excuse whatsoever for Three.
Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC
Cowboy Up Hang Gliding
Jackson Hole
Most of the time. But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
Well DUH! What the hell did you expect it to do? It was bent before you connected. Did you expect it to get straighter during the tow?
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc.
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
10. Hang Gliding Aerotow Ratings
-B. Aero Vehicle Requirements
06. A release must be placed at the hang glider end of the tow line within easy reach of the pilot. This release shall be operational with zero tow line force up to twice the rated breaking strength of the weak link.
But why bother making the slightest effort to adhering to hang gliding "regulations" anyway? After all - it's HANG GLIDING dude! Just do whatever the fuck you want.
Do you use this same piece o' shit release for tandem? (Rhetorical question.)
Yeah, don't worry. No stress 'cause you're high. And no fucking way this is gonna happen when you're low. (Something to do with the Van Allen Belt.)
deltaman - 2011/02/25 19:10:48 UTC
Thanks for replying.
But except for the defect of the release..
Aside from that bit of unpleasantness during Act III, Scene 2, Mrs. Lincoln...
Is the weight of a small part of the tow rope enough to use barrels with ONE hand. In france we don't use a carrabiner on the tow rope (that is an interesting weight in this case) just a ring..
WHY THE HELL ARE YOU *STILL* MORE CONCERNED ABOUT DUMPING A *SLACK* LINE UNDER *NO* TENSION WHEN YOU *JUST HEARD* THAT THE SHITRIGGED "RELEASE" YOU'RE USING WILL WELD ITSELF SHUT UNDER *NORMAL* TENSION???
Steven Leiler (kermit) - 2011/02/25 19:19:29 UTC
Durham, Connecticut
The weight of the rope would be more than enough to pull out the pin if everything is working properly.
Going somewhere with this?
Never mind, Delta. The rest of these people are total morons too.
Dennis Wood - 2011/02/25 19:20:43 UTC
Suffolk, Virginia
what is the vid supposed to be demonstrating? i'm confused, again...
Oh, peanuts... You? Confused?
Nibs - 2011/02/25 19:22:53 UTC
Atlanta
This exact scenario happened to me on my first solo aerotow. The tug engine sputtered so the pilot gave me the rope at about 100' or so. I thought I must have broken a weak link but then I looked and saw that I still had the rope. The weight of the rope is not enough to make a barrel release work...
If you use a stupid, piece o' shit Bailey release - yeah.
...but it isn't that big of a deal.
Nah, no BFD whatsoever. As long as you don't have big P-factor spirals of towline coming at you - like Ollie Gregory did at the 2005 ECC - or the loose end of the towline ties itself to something on the ground - like it did for Shane Smith two and a half months ago.
I just grabbed the tow rope with one hand, held it steady, and pulled the barrel release with the other, problem solved. But no, I don't see how you could do it with one hand. Why would you need to do it with one hand though... it only takes about 1.5 seconds.
Yeah, Nibs. I drive my car and ride my bicycle under that assumption all the time. I can't possibly conceive of ANY situation in hang gliding when it wouldn't be perfectly OK to take both hands off the bar for a second and a half.
deltaman - 2011/02/25 19:42:48 UTC
Why I ask ? cause some french pilots aren't confident with this release for that..
I never had trouble.
A tow rope is maybe 20gr/m so 100 feet high represents 600gr (without carabiner). It's like more than 2 coke cans. It should be enough to release in tension...
What do you think?
Maybe you should be more concerned about "If" than "What do".
Craig Hassan - 2011/02/25 19:52:46 UTC
Ohio
I use a barrel on each shoulder. Easier to dump everything with the second barrel, than to pull out the hook knife and try to cut the line.
My primary barrel is pretty loose, and probably would work with just line tension. My secondary bridle would need help, like Nibs mentioned. Grab the rope, grab the barrel and pull them apart.
So why are you using a secondary barrel that's even crappier than your primary?
In any case I have always assume it will not work and have taken the necessary actions.
Instead of using something that isn't a piece o' shit that you can assume WILL work. (I admire your sense of sportsmanship.)
(scooter towing I went thru a lot of line breaks and such.)
Yeah, you might as well use shit towline and such so everything matches.
As I sit here going thru the motions in my head, it shouldn't take more than 4 or 5 seconds to grab the rope and pull.
Yeah, if a second and a half is no BFD four or five shouldn't be either. Hell, Todd did fine fucking around with his hook knife for forty-three over that lakebed a year ago. Why don't we use that as an acceptable standard? Oh hell, let's round it off to forty-five. Nah, make it an even one minute - easier to remember, same as our weak links.
That is if you have a little trouble finding it. My barrels are also on a short leash so they stay pretty close to the same place regardless if being pulled forwards or draping backwards. That way I can find them easy enough.
Yeah, and I put a string between my teeth so the issue of "finding it" doesn't enter into the equation. But I'm nowhere near as good a pilot as you are.
Nibs - 2011/02/25 19:58:26 UTC
The barrels I have are VERY hard to pull... there is no way even a full length tow rope is going to offer enough resistance to make the barrel release.
I did hear about a double-way release barrel a couple of years ago. You can push or pull the barrel to release. Not sure who makes them or if they are available but it would solve the problem.
Or you could just design - or copy a design of - a sane barrel release which requires virtually no pull whatsoever. But it's so much more fun to further shitrig the kind of crap you're using.
Craig Hassan - 2011/02/25 20:01:54 UTC
There are a bunch of different barrel releases. Some have thicker webbing, some thinner, some have bigger barrels bent pins, straight pins, etc...etc...
Yeah, everything's just random, there's no predictability to anything, so just slap together whatever shit you have lying around the garage, throw it up in the air, and see what does or doesn't happen.
So some may, and some may not release. As I mentioned, assume they won't and it'll only take you a few seconds to drop the line.
Yeah, it's not like a total douchebag like you can conceive of anything that you can assume will.
deltaman - 2011/02/25 20:08:26 UTC
yes chassan, for me it s not a pb. But I'd like french pilots use their own weaklink on their harness and not anymore on the line. They have to use a release with a briddle, barrels or whichard which can work with pull and push (I didn't know that a pro tow release like this could exist).
I build some barrels and I saw that the breadth of the loop is important to configure the effort to release..
Are you using bent pins? (Rhetorical.)
WHY? (Not rhetorical.)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8307303546/
Greg Pierson - 2011/02/27 20:13:11 UTC
Dunlap, California
Release that has never failed me
Platform and scooter tow experience. Not sure if these are still being made. Perhaps Mojo gear has a few.
Peter Birren are you still on this list?? Mid west tow master.
He designed and had them manufactured. Easy simple would be real hard to make it fail.
http://www.mojosgear.com/mojos/link-knife-release-p-1029.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Weaklinks
Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC
Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.
Define "failed".
Jim Rooney - 2011/02/27 20:21:36 UTC
Queenstown
Short answer, no.
The long answer's been covered here pretty well, so I'll just point up to Nib's post
I've used those push or pull barrel releases.
Personally, I don't like them... the one I had liked to jam.
Yeah?
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC
Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.
Since when did you start having a problem with shitrigged releases that like to jam? What makes these so unacceptable? None of your asshole friends sell them?
They're a great idea in theory, but I've yet to see one that I like in practice.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?
Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC
A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
You've seen them, motherfucker. You've just made sure that they don't make it into circulation.
I'm in the "not a big deal" camp, but for those not in that camp, I'll echo the link knife. Good stuff that.
Yeah, you're never in a "big deal" camp.
Jean-Joseph Coté - 2011/02/27 21:52:52 UTC
Lunenburg, Massachusetts
No stress because I was high.
Well sure, dude, it's always a good idea to take a few tokes first to mellow you out, just in case, y'know, things get gnarly up there... :lol:
(Yes, I know what you actually meant...)
Yeah, I know what he meant too. Boils down to pretty much the same thing: detachment from reality.
Steven Leiler - 2011/02/28 00:50:44 UTC
That's what I thought would happen, But I'm sure what happen to Nibs was very real
Red Howard - 2011/02/28 03:08:02 UTC
Utah
Greg,
Peter Birren's award-winning LinkKnife is still in production, and available direct from:
http://www.birrendesign.com/linknife.html
"NASA purchased Linknifes for use on the X-38 Space Station Lifeboat, using four on each craft to cut away the chutes if there's a problem. The head engineer was amazed that the Linknife weighs a mere 1/4 ounce and has no moving parts except for the sliding O-ring. It was also used to cut away the parachute on landing in Project Stardust."
P.S. Pete has published his new astronomy field guide, now, also.
http://www.birrendesign.com/astro.html
Yeah, Peter should spend a whole more time in space and a whole lot less time on the flight line. I'm still waiting to hear how a Linknife is anywhere near as good as this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8312399698/
...and why having to cut, replace, and tie a piece of string each flight is such a great thing.
Peter Birren - 2011/02/28 03:31:16 UTC
Elk Grove, Illinois
Hi, Greg. Hi, all.
Hi Peter! Go fuck yourself.
Yes, the Linknife will work with no tow tension. I had a static towline break once that left me with 30' of 3/16" poly, smaller and lighter than an aero towline. A quick snap of my wrist and the weaklink was cut. It takes a few more seconds to set up at launch, but it works at any angle... every time. I'd be happy to answer any questions.
Yeah Peter, I have a few questions.
- What's the glider gonna be doing while you're grabbing the lanyard and quickly snapping your wrist? An unplanned semi-loop at maybe two hundred feet?
- What happens when you start your unplanned semi-loop at maybe one hundred feet? Do you get a quick snap of your freakin' neck?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Weaklinks
Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC
I know about this type of accident because it happened to me, breaking four ribs and my larynx... and I was aerotowing using a dolly.
- How did you manage to fuck up a dolly launch that catastrophically?
The shit happened so fast there was no room for thought much less action.
- How do you know there was no room for thought when you've never actually tried it before?
- What if you had had a release that would've let you maintain your grip on the basetube? Would you have been worse off?
But I wasn't dragged because the weaklink did its job and broke immediately on impact.
- Is the "JOB" of the weak link to break on IMPACT and keep some moron from being dragged? Did you read that somewhere and - if so - can I get a reference?
- Wouldn't it have been better if you auto released as soon as your hand came off the basetube?
- Would you have broken four ribs and your larynx if you HAD been dragged instead of slamming into the glider and ground when the weak link blew?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/7066
AT SOPs - proposed revisions
Peter Birren - 2009/05/10 01:33:31 UTC
If you want a truly foolproof release, it's got to be one that eliminates the pilot from the equation with a release that operates automatically. Certain tradeoffs would have to be made, like limiting the top altitude of a surface-based tow or having it release within certain limits of pitch, but if you want to legislate safety.... See
http://www.birrendesign.com/LKOpinions.html for more details. I am not trying to push the automatic release, definitely not the way you're pushing your setup, but it works.
- How does an asshole who wants to ELIMINATE THE PILOT FROM THE EQUATION end up with a SAFETY award from a PILOT CONTROLLED organization?
- Brad Anderson and Eric Aasletten HAD pitch limiting auto-releases and BOTH of those KIDS *WERE* eliminated from the equation. Is that the objective for which we should be shooting?
- Yeah, I'll bet it works. Can you put out a recall and make it NOT work somehow?
- Dickhead. (Yeah, I know, that wasn't a question.)
- Peter ("Mid west tow master"? :-) I'll take it :-)
Yeah, Peter, you probably are. That WOULD explain a lot of things.
Adi Branch - 2011/02/28 08:40:15 UTC
UK
Imagine:
You are low just after AT take off and the tug just break its weaklink and loose the tow rope
prevention blah blah ;)
Yeah, Adi, I'm REALLY LIKING that approach. Too bad you always seem to hafta cross the Atlantic to find signs of intelligent life. (You never seem to get much crossing the Pacific.)
bisleybob - 2011/02/28 18:06:53 UTC
Norfolk
just get a koch release and be done with it ive had one now for 3 years and its the bees knees. i pro AT and statick winch with it. and with one press of the lever even with one little finger it will spit out the line under no tension as its spring loaded and can not in anyway fail EVER. to this end i dont even have a hook knife.
Craig Hassan - 2011/02/28 18:16:12 UTC
Nothing in aviation is fail proof. Maybe fault tolerant.
Right - asshole. If there was any such thing as bulletproof equipment why would everybody in the US be using cheap shitrigged garbage?
deltaman - 2011/02/28 18:37:35 UTC
bisleybob
Too heavy and too much drag for a racer.. sorry I'm hanged low on the base bar dont want to scratch it !
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306152861/
Never mind. I hate everybody and my posts are too long so you should just ignore this.
Where is your weaklink ? on the line again ? Don't want this anymore. I think that every pilot should be responsible of it own..
Why? Why not just put a Tost weak link on the end of the towline just like sailplanes have been doing for a million years instead of the idiot place you have yours?
bisleybob - 2011/02/28 19:47:29 UTC
each to their own and i respect your choice as i dont know your situation but the whole drag thing for me is a bit old and i dont believe in it that much. the savings of say no king post thinner lines are small enough that one poor descision in a flight matters more.
i find people who scratch around for minimal drag are often making up for bad flying. no one can be that perfect and constant in their flying where they consistantly loose to a competitor due to somthing so small. if this were true what would be the point in competing as equipment is more important than skill.
many of the best pilots win because of their skill. years of experience nothing less.
i know of pilots who fly kingposted 10 year old gliders in the same tatty gear they used in the 80s and the knock the ass of carbon laced racing boys with their streamlined everything.
i suppose in the top clas of world championships maybee its more of an issue.
but to the average pilot it would be like sticking slicks on a van.
my release system is tested proven and there is no recorded evidance of one ever failing, sticking jamming or hook knife intervention. it is so simple it cant fail. it weighs a few gramms which wont effect my wing loading at all. the winner of the loxley trophy (uk XC winching leugue) this year uses a similar type
If you can use something lighter, cleaner, cheaper, safer - win-win-win-win - why not?
the weak link is in line and properly rated and so is not a problem certailnly less of a problem than 40feet of dangling line at a 20feet break.
Define "properly rated". (If it's in the UK... not a snowball's chance in hell.)
happy flying i hope you find something that suits your purpose.
deltaman - 2011/02/28 20:03:42 UTC
;-)
Why manfred Ruhmer don't use any kingpost glider?
We race fast in competition and long distance. For sure drag becomes important cause after a transition if you are lower than the other, finally you lost the group and its dynamic and you become slower!!
Look at the design of the new harnesses. Every modification in manufacture find its source in competition experienced pilot. Sorry for you.. So I dont want a Koch.
20 feet break doesn't matter. The barrel release don t need lot of tension if it is properly build (thinner loop). Second, It should be enough to land without the rope come in tension..
Probably. (If you like doing "probably".)
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21377
AT several Questions
Davis Straub - 2011/04/01 21:32:37 UTC
Clip the carabineer at the end of the tow line to one ring. Put your protow (or whatever) through the other ring. Now the carabineer is three or four feet away from the wires and won't snag them.
GREAT, DAVIS!!! We've got the deadly problem of the carabiner snagging the wires that's plagued mankind for centuries TOTALLY LICKED!!! Now we can go back to totally ignoring issues like:
The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
...and...
But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force.
...and...
When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.
...and...
I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
...and...
The basebar hit the ground first, nose wires failed from the impact, and at the same time she was hitting face first.
...and...
Elliot shattered four bones in his neck and damaged several blood vessels that supplied blood to the brain. He was flown to the Royal North Shore Hospital in Sydney and put into an induced coma but died on Monday.
) 
Good luck if it does. No 911 calls allowed. My friend was lucky, the nurse on hand convinced the owner not to move him, this after he snatched and threw her phone away. 