You are NEVER hooked in.

[Tad Eareckson]

Oh. I was a bit surprised that Jackass woulda been meticulous enough to have done the requisite homework.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26688
DO or DIE (HOOK-IN)

Alan Wengren - 2012/07/20 17:22:11 UTC



SEE? This is why you always see me in the shout box saying *HOOK IN* and *HANG CHECK*

He DID hook in and doing your worse than useless goddam idiot hang check doesn't do a goddam thing to catch that problem. In fact...

1991/05/17 - Lynn Smith - 37 - Novice - 70 flights, 11 mountain flights - Pacific Windcraft Vision - Lookout Mountain, Georgia

After two prior flights that day, the pilot returned for his twelfth flight at this site. Winds were light. The pilot hooked in and did a hang check. The straps were not straight, so he unhooked, straightened them and rehooked. Reportedly a least three different hang checks were done with at least one unhook. The pilot launched, popped the nose slightly, dove to recover, and about halfway through the pullout, after about ten seconds of flight, the pilot fell from the glider. Fall was over a hundred feet. He was killed on impact, with major head, face, and chest injuries. The carabiner was found intact and functional. The gate was not locked. Both hang straps on the glider were normal.

...you can do your goddam idiot hang checks all day long and they won't catch that problem.

And that ramp, by the way Alan, is where YOU did your first and twelfth mountain flights a bit over eighteen years later. And I find it REAL interesting that you both weren't familiar with this option for killing yourself and taught how to deal with it.

Well, given how much time I spent talking to at Lookout while you were training with those assholes and how much time we spent talking on the phone later that year and noting how much NOTHING sank through I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have made any difference if your training hadn't totally sucked.

Please don't get yourself into this situation, Life is too short as it is.

Yeah, keep doing those hang checks. There's no such thing as too many hang checks.

MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY .... going doooooown

Paul Hurless - 2012/07/20 17:29:14 UTC

Don't fly a bag and you won't get into that situation.

Idiot.

Alan Wengren - 2012/07/20 17:29:41 UTC

OH YES YOU CAN!

Dustin George - 2012/07/20 17:30:14 UTC
Front Royal, Virginia

Wow, is that on paragliding or hang gliding harness?

What's it matter?

Ya... that looks terrifying. Good way to ruin a perfectly good time.

Do send my regards to Steve Wendt and tell him what a great job he's doing alerting you to these kinds of issues in the course of his world renowned training program.

Jesse Yoder - 2012/07/20 17:42:51 UTC
Arlington, Virginia

I was on a hundred foot training hill and neglected to lock my biner and flew like that once. Noticed on landing and gulped good. Always lock your biner.

Yeah. There's no way to avoid a partial hook-in unless you use a locking carabiner and lock it.

Manta_Dreaming - 2012/07/20 18:51:58 UTC

Have you considered using a carabiner with a longer throat, so that it would be more difficult to have the strap slip out the gate?

Just an added layer of protection. Good to hear you had a nice flight

JUST FULLY ENGAGE THE FUCKIN' CARABINER FERCHRISAKE.

Alan Wengren - 2012/07/20 19:05:41 UTC

This was not my flight. I just downloaded the pic but it can happen the same no matter what your flying.

The more people see this the more they will think about it and hopefully this can help save lives since a lot of pilots get distracted before their flights.

Sure Alan.

Same way if I show people photos like:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8331326948/

and
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8312399698/


I can get you assholes to stop using bent pin releases.

And if I show people videos like:

http://vimeo.com/16572582

password - red
2-112
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7600/28811055456_925c8abb66_o.png


and:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHWbu0su1fA


I can get you assholes to start doing hook-in checks.

This was not a case of a short or a long biner, this was a case that the pilot clearly DID NOT screw the lock up onto the threads to lock the clip shut.

Idiot.

again, distraction.

Bullshit. Assembly error, no preflight.

Manta_Dreaming - 2012/07/20 19:52:31 UTC

I agree with you one hundred percent on visual inspection PRIOR to flight.

None of the total morons in this idiot thread has said a single word about a visual inspection.

I do think the length of the carabiner throat would make a difference - I'm speaking of the length of the top part of the throat. If the strap is always under tension it would be less likely to slip out the throat if the top part were longer.

Yeah, let's not talk about fully engaging the carabiner and listening for the click. Let's talk about better ways to do things wrong. Let's talk about aborting unhooked launch runs, throwing the parachute with one hand while you're dangling from the basetube by the other, using the weak link as an instant hands free release, recovering from weak link failures, cutting your bridle with your hook knife, and letting go of the downtubes before you break your arms after flaring your standup landing a second too late.

Paul Hurless - 2012/07/20 19:07:06 UTC

The carabiner in the picture looks like a non-screw lock type.

It's not an autolocker - it's a screw locker.

That type of strap hang-up is why you should always use a screw-lock type for flying a HG. The PG's do things a little differently.

Bullshit. That type of strap hang-up is why you should always fully engage and check your carabiner.

Mike Bastan - 2012/07/20 19:21:10 UTC
Los Angeles

What I'm wondering is why (s)he spent the time taking this photo rather than immediately fixing the problem.

What I'm wondering is why you're not realizing that this photo was staged and taken by two people at launch.

Christopher LeFay - 2012/07/20 20:22:29 UTC

Ever heard eyewitness testimony?

Ever heard of anybody looking at a partially engaged carabiner without getting a strong feeling that something's not quite right?

I wouldn't bet my life on it.

But you'd have no problem whatsoever betting your life on a downtube mounted release lever, a shoulder mounted bent pin, and a loop of 130 pound test fishing line no matter how many people you hear about getting crashed and killed by that crap.

Touch everything.

Yeah, that'll make everything just fine.

At what point in your ancestry did the mutation which wiped out common sense kick in?

Casey Cox - 2012/07/21 02:23:10 UTC

That biner looks aluminum. I've always heard HG should insure to have steel. Why are bags different? The less weight of a glider?

- Whenever you've got a GLIDER - hang or para - suspended from YOU, carabiner failure will be way down on your list of concerns.

- Paragliders suspend the pilot using twice as many carabiners as we do.

- ANY climbing carabiner in good shape - aluminum or steel - will trash the glider LONG before the glider will trash it.

- Yeah, there have been some fatigue, cracking corrosion problems with aluminum carabiners and people went berserk - but they were total nonissues compared to all the big killer items we have that nobody ever does shit about. Fly with:
- an aluminum carabiner? ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FREAKING MIND?!?!?!
- Industry Standard aerotow equipment? Hey! I was in line before you were!

Gary (positiveg) - 2012/07/21 02:28:47 UTC
Perth

A safer method !!

Here down under in Australia we use a different system for hooking in which in theory "nearly" guarantees that you are always hooked in.

Who's "we"? Everybody? How 'bout this guy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mX2HNwVr9g
Hang Gliding Fail
andyh0p - 2011/04/24 - dead
03-0325 - 06-0511
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/13512258445_6b5a3662d0_o.png

http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/12931220073_1609b59b17_o.png
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52378864885_3b8ca2da8c_o.png

http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52378864870_2129572e3a_o.png
18-0919 - 21-1025

He's from Perth. Didn't get the message?

Once the glider is set up we attach our harness at that time.
We NEVER !!! get into the harness and then proceed to the glider to then hook in thats a mistake looking for a place to happen.

Never?

If anyone sees anyone else walking around in their harness they will be told but no one does it anyway

Right. One wonders just a bit why a procedure so wonderful, effective, universally applicable, and widely embraced needs the slightest bit of peer pressure to make it more widely embraced.

Of course we always do a hang check prior to launch...

- OF COURSE you always do.
- How long prior to launch? Every fifteen minutes - whether you need to or not?

...but if you forget that part at least you can be confident that your carrabiner is attached.

And in this game...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25550
Failure to hook in.

Christian Williams - 2011/10/25 03:59:58 UTC

What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.

...you want as much confidence as you can get.

Hope this is of use
Gary

Yeah, it actually was of use. 'Cause now I realize that this is quite analogous to the aerotowing issue.

Lookout Mountain Flight Park - 2009/07/12

If properly used, there is a minimum of three ways to release from the towline. Do not depend on any of these ways by themselves and fly with a back up. The first release is the primary release which under certain situations may fail, second, is the secondary release that works most of the time, if all is set up correctly, and third, the weak link which will break under the right load. You should also fly with a hook knife that will allow you to cut the line if need be.

Instead of having a well thought out, clean, bulletproof primary defense you have a crappy cumbersome strategies which is known to fail and/or be inoperable in lotsa circumstances so you back it up with one or two other crappy cumbersome strategy which are known to fail and/or be inoperable in lotsa circumstances.

And whenever anybody hands you something elegant and brutally effective on a silver platter you instantly either go deaf, dumb, and blind or start coming up with moronic reasons why it won't work and should never be incorporated.

[miguel]

Yeah, having screwed that pooch ONCE on the dunes during a quick hook-in in high winds and discovered discovering my little faux pas after a hook-in check, launch, few passes, and landing, I'm a HUGE fan of turning and inspecting - AS AN ELEMENT OF MY *PREFLIGHT*.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26691
Hooking in Down under :)

Gary (positiveg) - 2012/07/21 03:41:38 UTC

Just another thought

I think the method described should definetly be used on all Tandam flights.
The existing method is seriously flawed with the results speaking for themselves.

Ryan Voight - 2012/07/21 15:46:44 UTC

One comment on the "Aussie method"... It doesn't really SOLVE the problem, it just shifts where/how someone can screw up.

If you only ever have your harness on when it's already connected to the glider, this builds a reliance. "If I have my harness on, I must be hooked in". If for whatever reason you later unhook, or on one day you put the harness on first, now this method can work against you.

Agreed. It's an absolutely one hundred percent certifiably insane strategy.

It's no worse than putting your harness on then hooking in... but I don't find it any better either. It solves one dependency with another.

Conditioning yourself to assume that "If I have my harness on, I must be hooked in." is a thousand times worse than anything else.

I say do what you like, what works best for you, what you'll remember to do... but don't think this method is foolproof either.

Yeah Ryan, ignore the fuckin' SOPs and tell everyone to do what works for them. Unless standup landings don't work for them. And then you're gonna use your authority as an instructor to disallow the wheel landing option permitted under the SOPs and teach everybody to perfect their standup landings at one of your clinics.

I think the method described should definetly be used on all Tandam flights.

You obviously don't do tandem flights very often. Good luck putting a passenger into a stirrup, knee hanger, or cocoon harness while it is connected to the glider

I'm sure you have good intentions... but people really need to refrain from speaking to things of which they lack knowledge/experience (please).

So maybe you should shut the fuck up on anything having to do with towing.

Dave Boggs - 2012/07/21 16:25:36 UTC

"IF" you always hook the harness to the glider before you get into the harness,
and you never unhook the harness while in it ,
Reliance ?

Build glider ,do equipment check,
Unpack harness clip into glider, lock carabiner ,check equipment ,chute pins, lines checkglider one last time
Get into harness ,check leg loops to insure no nut crushing will occur after launch, do pull thru to check that you didnt twist some line and everything is straight
"If I have my harness on, I must be hooked in" Because I never unhook it while in it,so I must be hooked in, because when I unhook it ,I only do that when Im not wearing the harness.

Fly.
Land
Get out of harness
Get beer
Unhook harness and pack up
disassemble glider.

Learn to write a sentence. Then maybe you'll be able to read sentences other people are writing and get something out of them which punches a few holes in your cherished religious beliefs.

Ryan Voight - 2012/07/18 13:57:28 UTC

I'm the Safety Officer (and Regional Director) here in Utah, and I can't begin to tell you how unpopular it makes me.

And then you lose some more popularity amongst the fraction of a percent of people who know what the fuck their talking about. But no BFD with respect to that demographic.

Luckily I have the disposition for it, 'cause I don't give a $h!t what people think about me...

And also don't give a shit about the possibility that the people who think you're an asshole may have a few valid points.

...but it seems few have this character flaw.

Certainly not the few individuals who have not yet perfected their standup landings.

The way I see it, I have plenty of friends... but not enough flying sites. If I have to lose a friend to keep a flying site, I will. I don't want to... but I will...

Don't worry Ryan. People of the caliber of you, Rooney, Jack, and Davis will always have plenty of friends.

It's kind of funny, but being as vocal as I am about people doing stupid stuff, I have MADE as many friends as I may have lost (maybe more). People seem to respect standing up for your values/beliefs, even if they don't necessarily agree, or are to shy to do the same.

Yeah Ryan.

HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

And I've always really admired the way you've stood up for those principles wherever you see them undermined, abused, destroyed. Asshole.

See attached SOP 12-07...

A few highlights:

A. Conduct demonstrating a lack of judgment and maturity commensurate with the rating, certification or appointment.

G. Any actions that jeopardize a flying site, including but not limited to using a site for instruction or tandem flights without securing landowner permission where such permission may be required.

Ryan Voight - 2012/07/18 14:07:36 UTC

How can you pick-and-choose which rules should be enforced and which to push aside?

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

I say do what you like, what works best for you, what you'll remember to do...

Fuck you.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26557
Failure to hook in 6/29/12

Dan Harding - 2012/07/21 15:18:23 UTC

Wow !!! Nine pages so far, and this is my second post to this thread.

All topics - unhooked launches, landings, releases, weak links - in which the tiny minority of people capable of thinking are handing out the solutions but are being ignored, overwhelmed, sabotaged by the morons go on for volumes, peter out, and then re-ignite after the next near or actual disaster.

I'll keep this short.

How 'bout not posting at all? Just kidding, I need the amusement.

Something that I have not seen posted yet, and if it was I missed it, is this.

Maybe from this point in time forward, Instructors should teach students how to launch with out being clipped in...

WHAT? Damn near all of them are doing that already. Paul and Ryan Voight, Steve Wendt, Jim Rooney, Richard Hays, Matt Taber, Joe Greblo, Greg DeWolf, Andy Beem, Rob McKenzie, Jeff Hunt, Donnell Hewett, Mike Robertson, Dennis Pagen, Bill Bryden, Greg Black, Wills Wing... Name someone who ISN'T teaching students how to launch without hooking in.

...as in, "OH SHIT NOW WHAT DO I DO"

Oh. Yeah, if you're gonna be teaching people how to launch without being hooked in you should probably be teaching them what to do afterwards. It's pretty obvious that what they've been doing on their own in the past really sucks for the most part.

On some launches the hillside is just to steep or maybe its a cliff, if that is the case the only option is to pull oneself into the controll frame and fly the wing.

DAMN!!! If only Bill Priday had known that! And THIS:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1166
Thoughts on responsibility...

Scott Wilkinson - 2005/10/05 14:10:56 UTC

We visited Steve Wendt yesterday, who was visibly choked up over Bill's death. For Steve, it all comes down to one thing: you've got to hook in. Period.

is all his instructor was teaching him.

On other launches the hillside is less-dangerous, so the best option is to let go of the glider, and maybe get a few bruises or scrapes from falling down.

Yeah, we should probably make five of those exercises on a shallow dune mandatory for a Hang Two rating.

The point is to recognize that you have launched with out being clipped in and make a decision very quickly as to "WHAT TO DO"

Yeah, I think that the more confident people feel about their chances of survival are just after launching unhooked the more confident they'll be in themselves just before launching unhooked.

so anyway there is another two cents worth.

Solid as usual. Lotsa bang for the buck. Keep it coming.

Ooh! And we should probably have tandem pilots practice wrapping their legs around twenty-something year old chicks. Win/Win!

michael170 - 2012/07/21 20:55:40 UTC

That's Brilliant! I'll run that by Pat Denevan next time I see him, as I'm sure he will appreciate the wisdom in such a tactic. Certainly he'll want to include these techniques in his training and instructor certification program.

Allen Sparks - 2012/07/21 21:14:54 UTC

As training to prepare for FTHI, pilots should visualize themselves hanging by one hand over jagged rocks while trying to deploy their reserve.
An alternative technique is to visualize yourself plummeting headfirst into rocks, just prior to launch.
Do a hook-in check, just after you visualize yourself smashing into rocks, just prior to launch.

Are you TOTALLY INSANE?!?!?!

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13132
Unhooked Death Again - Change our Methods Now?

Quinn Cornwell - 2009/01/24 19:57:03 UTC
Safety Officer
Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association of Canada

No, don't think about the jagged boulders. That'll mess with your head. Don't ever tell pilots to think about "oh, if you screw this up, you'll crash and burn into those jagged rocks down there, so make sure you don't screw this up". This sort of psychology is detrimental. It's good to be conscience of the dangers in hang gliding, pointing this out right before you start running is just plain stupid.

No, don't think about the jagged boulders. That'll mess with your head. Don't ever tell pilots to think about "Oh, if you screw this up, you'll crash and burn into those jagged rocks down there, so make sure you don't screw this up." This sort of psychology is detrimental. It's good to be conscious of the dangers in hang gliding but pointing this out right before someone starts running is just plain stupid.

This has worked for me.

That'll work for ANYBODY.

Rob Kells - 2005/12

Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.

1. NOBODY who's been afraid of smashing into the jagged rocks just prior to launch ever has.

2. If you're afraid of smashing into the jagged rocks just prior to EVERY launch you NEVER will. You will automatically do SOMETHING to make sure there's no possibility of that happening.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26691
Hooking in Down under :)

Dave Boggs - 2012/07/22 00:59:07 UTC

My way , I will never worry about launching unhooked

How very odd. My way, I ALWAYS worry about launching unhooked.

and more than once being the last off the hill using some numpty wuffo to wire me off,like he would be any help with a equipment check

Right. Some numpty wuffo would NEVER be able to spot a dangling carabiner - or an unbuckled helmet. You generally need at least a solid Hang Three for that level of expertise. Preferably four or five of them - based on the results we've had at places like McConnellsburg, Whitwell, and Hearne.

Dan Harding - 2012/07/22 12:50:36 UTC

The point of my post was to get pilots to realize that they are unhooked as they are launching and make a quick deceision as , "what do I do now"

And the point of all the posts of the people with IQs HIGHER than that of a bowling pin is to get pilots to realize that they are unhooked BEFORE they are launching and make a quick decision along the lines of "I should probably hook in before I launch."

Total fucking moron.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26691
Hooking in Down under :)

Dan Harding - 2012/07/22 12:50:36 UTC

The point of my post was to get pilots to realize that they are unhooked as they are launching and make a quick deceision as , "what do I do now"

Hey Dan...

You're dangling from your basetube with hundred thousand dollars in your pocket five seconds after launching from Mingus.

I have my time machine and I hit pause.

For ten bucks I'll hit rewind and inform the guy sitting on the rock to your left in time to alert you that you're unhooked two steps into your launch run.

For the whole wad I'll hit rewind and inform the guy sitting on the rock to your right in time to alert you that you're unhooked two seconds before you'd be moving your foot in the original cut.

Pick one.

What should the focus of this discussion be?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26691
Hooking in Down under :)

Ryan Voight - 2012/07/22 00:06:00 UTC

I find it MUCH easier to put my cocoon on BEFORE hooking in. You can do it any way you like. I hold the biner, put each leg loop on, then slide the rest over my head like a shirt. I never let go of the biner, so I know my lines are straight. I hook in, walk through, and do my seatbelt. As long as I know my hang-height is good, I remove the need for a wuffo-hang-check.

But not for a "pilot" hang check?

What the hell difference does it make who's holding your nose when you check your clearance?

I very much prefer self-sufficiency. In my opinion a "good" system is one that works in many diverse situations.

Except for hook-in checks. It's beyond me why anyone would think one of those would be important.

Sometimes, top landing while it's windy, I want to unhook before walking my glider anywhere. If I decide to fly again, now I have my harness on AND I'm not hooked in.

Like I said, do what you like... But don't think ANYTHING is foolproof!

You miserable little motherfucker. I just figured out what you're doing and I feel SO STUPID for taking this long.

- I don't think there's a SINGLE SOLITARY INSTANCE of you either mentioning anything remotely resembling a hook-in check or acknowledging anything anybody else says about anything remotely resembling a hook-in check.

- That's USHGA policy and you're a USHGA stooge.

- Just like your asshole father who USHGA had star in this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW8qZESnFvQ


propaganda film designed to eradicate the memory of the hook-in check regulation and stated intent.

- For the benefit of any new readers who don't know what's going on... USHGA's gotten a lot of people killed by failing to enforce its rating requirement regulations and is terrified of having its useless ass sued out of existence so it's trying to pretend that the regulations never existed.

It's so fuckin' obvious now. I hope you rot in hell.

fly,surf,&ski - 2012/07/22 04:58:20 UTC
Torrey Pines

Sometimes, top landing while it's windy, I want to unhook before walking my glider anywhere. If I decide to fly again, now I have my harness on AND I'm not hooked in.

Ryan I like this example. The first thing I always do when I land is to unhook from the glider. The reason being I don't want to have anything to do with being hooked into the glider if for some reason it were to get away from me...

(My home site has not always been a nice smooth coastal site like TPG, which still happens to produce ROTOR on the stronger days.)

I can also think of quite a few places where I would NOT want to hook into my glider till I was standing ON LAUNCH due to gusty cross wind, rotor, dust devils, etc.

Two places that come to mind personally: Makapuu, Hawaii and Frisco Peak, Utah. Try the "aussie method" there and let me know how it works out...

(At Makapu'u the local pilots will make you unhook the harness while walking to launch.)

Anyway even though I don't use it (I use one final visual check along with lifting the glider just prior to starting my launch run) I personally see nothing wrong with the "aussie method", just that I agree with Ryan that it does have some limitations...

Yeah, like if you've done all the previous launches of your career assuming that if you're standing under a glider you're hooked in because you always connect your harness to your glider before climbing into it and then go to Makapu'u.

Manta_Dreaming - 2012/07/22 06:15:29 UTC

Where's that video of that glider and attached pilot being tossed backwards by a dust devil ripping through the setup area?

Right here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3QcMB2owFc

09-12006


But if you're an Aussie Methodist you need very expensive special glasses to make it visible.

Grant Bond - 2012/07/22 10:10:30 UTC
Perth

Now look what you started Gary
Hey Cav man, only know of this one from Gero, Oz. He is the only person I've ever seen that unhooks, he was ok luckily.
Great vid, such pretty colours

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mX2HNwVr9g
Hang Gliding Fail
andyh0p - 2011/04/24 - dead
03-0325 - 06-0511
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/13512258445_6b5a3662d0_o.png

http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/12931220073_1609b59b17_o.png
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52378864885_3b8ca2da8c_o.png

http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52378864870_2129572e3a_o.png
18-0919 - 21-1025

Mike Lake - 2012/07/22 09:44:31 UTC
UK

I worry about launching unhooked all the time and the closer I get to actually committing aviation the more worried I get.
Anyone who has a 'system' in place that removes this worry is likely to launch unhooked.
It matters not what you do in the run up to launch as this can be some time before the only bit that really matters, the point of launch.

If you clip in before climbing into your harness and dismiss the possibility of ever launching unhooked what happens the one time you unclip to adjust a camera (for example)?
Ya ya I know, but I simply do not believe people are so disciplined they never ever do this (perhaps when no one is looking). Any system is 100% foolproof until it isn't.

The best system is the "I don't want to die system" the one that makes you paranoid enough to check you are clipped in just before your best chance of the day of killing yourself.

A bit like the FINAL check before pulling out into a stream of fast moving traffic earlier checks really have no bearing.

Make sure you REALLY don't acknowledge this one, Ryan.

JJ Coté - 2012/07/22 11:35:01 UTC

If you clip in before climbing into your harness and dismiss the possibility of ever launching unhooked what happens the one time you unclip to adjust a camera (for example)?

Never never never never never never never never. Worst thing you can do. No matter whether you hook the harness before you put it on or not, don't EVER do this.

Yeah, except the record shows in no uncertain terms that your fellow cult members DO. And there's no fuckin' way people with functional brains are gonna sign on to your idiot cult anyway.

From what I can tell, most FTHI incidents involve somebody who was hooked in at some point and then unhooked.

Get fucked. Just one of many areas where you don't have a goddam clue what you're talking about.

It's amusing that the two camps here both dismiss the other as not being foolproof, and saying that the other one can put you in a hazardous position.

Yeah, two camps. Hook-in checkers don't exist.

I mean, I'm a hook-in-first guy, but that doesn't mean that I hook my harness in first and then just go on faith that I'm hooked in without any additional checks, and nobody advocates that.

No, damn near everyone advocates additional preflight checks.

But by the same token, putting all of the faith into a check just before yelling "Clear!" works fine until you're dealing with tricky launch conditions and forget to do that.

All my faith is put into having no faith at all that I've done a previous check that I'm hooked in and having no faith at all that I'll that I'll check just before yelling "Clear!" The sickening fear that that lack of faith elicits ensures that I'll always check just before yelling "Clear!"

And moving to launch while hooked in can be dangerous in some cases? Where I fly, there's at least one site where if I were trying to lift my glider up to feel the tug on my leg loops, that would be more hazardous (for me, at least), and I'd be inviting a blown launch.

I've got no problem whatsoever with you inviting a blown launch.

Manta_Dreaming - 2012/07/22 18:30:20 UTC

This is a perfect illustration of why you always launch into the wind - so if you are unhooked your glider will return to the launch site and save you the trouble of chasing it for miles.

I so do love it when these guys get their gliders back quickly and in good shape.

http://vimeo.com/16572582

password - red
2-112
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7600/28811055456_925c8abb66_o.png


I just can't get enough of these videos.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26688
DO or DIE (HOOK-IN)

Alex - 2012/07/22 19:53:22 UTC

Can you say Launch Police, what an excellent way to start fist fights or better still, lawsuits.

And yet standard aerotow weak link police would've had the Gestapo turning green with envy.

The Aussie method has never been big here in NA, though there's obviously a push from some pilots who feel that it's 'their way or no way'.

And then there's the odd individual who feels that...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26557
Failure to hook in 6/29/12

Allen Sparks - 2012/07/13 12:41:24 UTC

As an USHPA observer, I will not sign off for a USHPA rating until the pilot has demonstrated that they are doing hook-in checks consistently, just prior to launch, on every flight I observe.

...black and white rating requirements should actually be adhered to.

Despite this allegedly horrifying fact, FTHI are extremely rare in NA.

BULLSHIT. Unhooked launch FATALITIES are extremely rare EVERYWHERE. Inconsequential unhooked launches are common as dirt.

Obviously (and it is obvious) other methods work just as well as the Aussie method.

ANY method which doesn't condition people to assume they're hooked in at the instant of launch works better than that insanity.

PS

Problems with Aussie method:

1 not 100 % foolproof

Sure it is. Just ask any Aussie Methodist.

2 lack of flexibility, flexibility is a good thing when you have a myriad of variables that can change in a blink of an eye.

A good Aussie Methodist will ignore those variables whenever they're pointed out in a discussion.

3 sets up the wrong mental state for the pilot, they rely on a pre-set configuration of their equipment rather than paying attention to what they should be doing (in plain site and out of mind phenomenon).

And exactly when does that mental state issue become most critical?

4 other problems surface like failure to attach leg strap or biner not actually locked or set properly.

- You need to miss TWO leg loops before it's an issue.
- Name somebody who got so much as scratched because his carabiner wasn't locked.
- Gee, you've got to preflight your system. Bummer.

5 needless duplication, a proper hang check makes the Aussie method totally unnecessary.

A fucking proper hang check is just as deadly as the fucking Aussie Method.

I am not against the Aussie method (far too inflexible for my liking)...

Sounds to me like you're against it.

...but I am against pilots who assume that it's their way or no way, that's just plain BS.

Make an argument against this:

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

REGULATION.

Check List Method is much more effective:

Bullshit.

I believe in and use the Check List Method which covers all aspects of pre-launch and launch activity.

I believe that all aspects of prelaunch activity is totally irrelevant to the unhooked launch issue.

The Check List method keeps me 100% focused on what I should be doing to fly safely...

The checklist method keeps EVERYONE one hundred percent focused on what they should be doing to fly safely - until there's a distraction.

...it gives me absolute flexibility...

Name ONE THING that actually mattered that you caught with your goddam checklist that you wouldn't have caught without your goddam checklist.

...and is 100% effective when combined with a hang check.

Yeah. There's NO POSSIBLE WAY anyone can launch unhooked after using a checklist and doing a hang check.

Asshole.

JJ Coté - 2012/07/22 20:52:12 UTC

I'm trying to find anything accurate in this post, and the only thing I'm coming up with is that the Aussie method is not popular in NA.

Some of its popularity in Australia can be attributed to vigilante thuggery.

Alan Wengren - 2012/07/23 04:25:23 UTC

Aussie Method or NA Method, doesn't matter.

Exactly what is the NORTH AMERICAN method, Alan? What are the regulations specified by USHGA and HPAC?

If your head is on straight and your thinking about your preflight, hang check, hooking-in and flying then it won't matter how you hook in or what method you use,... you'll be safe to go.

Yeah.

Luen Miller - 1994/09

The second pilot was distracted by backing off launch to get his helmet, which he had forgotten. While doing so he thought of a pilot who launched unhooked at Lookout Mountain as a result of the distraction of retrieving his helmet. Our pilot then proceeded to launch unhooked.

Right.

Any asshole who thinks he'll be safe to go has no fuckin' business flying these things.

If your worried that one method is going to save your butt and the other won't then you need to stay on the ground, simple.

That would be a totally excellent place for your butt.

There's no excuse for not making a complete preflight of your wing and gear before every flight.

Aside from operating in the real world and being human, no.

This includes preflight of your Harness, Chute, Chute Storage area, Straps, Belts, Chute Pull Handle, Release Mechanisms, Biner, Zippers and everything on that harness or connected to it... even stitching!. Check helmets, goggles, chin straps and strap locking devices for the helmet and then of course move on to the wing, and if I missed something here then check that too!. I'm tired right now.

OK. Add radio, cell phone, camera, gloves, water, hook knife, and tree rescue kit to chute storage area, chute pull handle, zippers, helmet, chin strap, goggles, and release mechanisms. Once those are taken care of you can start relaxing, secure in the knowledge that your chances of launching unhooked are now very remote.

If you act like a professional pilot and make a solid routine then you should be fine to fly.

- You mean a professional pilot like Dennis Pagen, Steve Parson, Jim Rooney, Kevin Rooke, or Jon Orders?
- Yeah, if you've got a solid routine that you've just followed you SHOULD be fine to fly.

If you have any distractions or get pulled off to the side answering someones questions about their wing or something totally different during your pre-flight then you need to start over from the beginning of either your gear checking stage or if you were checking your wing... depending on what you were checking... start over.= for that section. (Harness, Helmet, Wing)

Yeah, start checking all that useless bullshit all over again. You don't know what might have happened to your harness stitching while you were pulled off to the side answering someone's questions about his wing - like another five reasons why one shouldn't perform a sidewire load test.

There's no excuse for someone to forget to hook in.

There are scores of really good reasons people forget to hook in. There's only one reason people, like you, refuse to do hook-in checks - astronomical stupidity.

yes we all know this right? Well hanging a harness in the wing first is not going to save you anymore then getting in a harness, walking around and then hooking in.

All that does (hooking the harness to a wing first) will give them a false sense of security because now they feel they have more mobility to play around, talking, getting more distracted or whatever and forget those very important items on a checklist... instead of having their head on straight and making a legit pre-flight they'll forget about it and think since their harness is already connected then everything is good to go. WRONG!.

Oh. That gives people a false sense of security but this statement:

If you act like a professional pilot and make a solid routine then you should be fine to fly.

doesn't?

If you can, Have a check list written out at home where you can think about making a routine by actually laying out your gear and even your wing if you have too and put that on a 5x7 card or even the back of a business card so you can have it with you before you fly.

What's on:
- yours?
- yours that will be of any value in addressing this issue?

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=821
Fatal hang gliding accident

Sam Kellner - 2011/11/07 02:47:58 UTC

Preflight, Hangcheck, Know you're hooked in.

Something along the lines of that?

If you can have one other person with you who you can trust to be your second set of eyes and both of you can go over the routine and check off the task as you go. But for god sakes folks, no matter how you hook up your harness, make sure when you set out to start your preflight you have your heads clear and distant from others who may distract you!

The unhooked launch issue doesn't have shit to do with preflight or distractions, Alan. People launch unhooked 'cause they never do hook-in checks.

And for those who are not flying? or are onlookers (pilots or friends)?? Stay away from the pilot, his ground crew or both who are in pre-flight mode!

Yeah, if you're not flying your observations and input can only be a detriment. Our pilots and crews can always be assumed to really have their shit together.

The pre-flight should be the last stage before a pilot hooks in his/her wing and should be done all at once. (preflight, Hook-In, Hang Check, Recheck, lift the wing, have ground crew if needed and then CLEAR when it's right to fly.

Yeah, for the love of God, NEVER under ANY circumstances make any effort to verify the connection after you've lifted the glider. What would be the point of that?

Don't preflight, and then hook your harness up, or walk around in it then go get a hamburger or talk with people waiting for changes,... NO!,.. and then say Oh I guess I'll fly now it seems OK. and then hook in and launch! don't be a fool. Be a professional and think about how a simple mistake can and will kill you.

Idiot.

It's happened way too many times already from this same kind of thing.

Idiot.

Bottom line? Get your head on straight and your thinking straight and treat this sport with respect Don't get stupid and forget the most important things during your preflights and again perform your preflight right before you fly without any distractions and you'll be flying for a very long time to come.

Idiot.

Think about it... Really think about this...

Good job, Alan. I think that people will really take your message to heart and from this point on we should be seeing a lot more people behaving like professional pilots and a lot fewer unhooked launches.

... matter of fact, Sleep on it.

I have... I REALLY have. And I have no idea how I managed to stay awake reading through your post as well as I did.

Robert Seckold - 2012/07/23 05:32:09 UTC
Australia

I just like to keep it simple. Relying on my memory, check lists, buddies etc for the one mistake that will kill me, not hooking in, is not the way I want to do things.

Didn't hear you say anything about about fear and hook-in checks.

Leg Loops, chin straps or any number of other mistakes are dangerous enough but at least you have a eighty to ninety percent chance of surviving them, not hooking in you don't.

HOLY SHIT!!! I've only got a ten to twenty percent chance of dying because of an unbuckled chin strap! Dude! I think I've been narrowing my focus at launch on my hook-in status WAY too much. Thanks for the heads up on that one!

Ya know, Robert... I'd say unhooked launches get survived about eighty to ninety percent of the time.

- The fatal ones GET reported - whether the relevant pilots, launch crews, schools, clubs, or national organizations want them to be or not. We hear about one hundred percent of those.

- Back in the days before USHGA got its incident report suppression machinery really geared up we used to read stuff like this:

Doug Hildreth - 1988/11

Failure to hook in. There were seven of them last year. One was a fatality.

in the magazine.

And you've gotta be a total moron not to realize...

Doug Hildreth - 1981/04

Failure to Hook In: Only three reports were filed of pilots who failed to hook in, but rumor and word of mouth convinced me there were many more.

that the bulk of the inconsequential ones are being ignored, not reported, covered up.

- If you just read the posts...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17820
Launching unhooked with scooter tow

Mark Dowsett - 2009/11/14 00:00:30 UTC

I must admit... this has happened to us three times this year. We've just started scooter towing and it's surprisingly easy to do.

...and watch the videos...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL00UefQqZA


...it's pretty obvious that the fatals are just fairly rare manifestations of the failure to hook-in factories like Lookout, Blue Sky, Windsports.

There has been at least one unhooked launch around the world for the last eight years I have been flying of people using the American method. I have not heard of one Australian unhooked launch in those eight years...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18695
How could this accident happen?

William Olive - 2010/01/28 04:50:53 UTC

Phil Beck did this twice (or was that three times?) in a day at Hexham (Victoria) one time while foot launch aerotow testing gliders. Of course, with a swag of gliders to test fly, Phil would unclip from the glider he'd just landed, then clip into the next one to be tested.

Except, at least twice, he didn't clip in.

That's at least two from ONE person in ONE afternoon.

This one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mX2HNwVr9g
Hang Gliding Fail
andyh0p - 2011/04/24 - dead
03-0325 - 06-0511
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http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/12931220073_1609b59b17_o.png
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52378864885_3b8ca2da8c_o.png

http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52378864870_2129572e3a_o.png
18-0919 - 21-1025

had 40881 hits on it last I checked. And you haven't seen it or followed any of the discussions that reference it?

...this pretty much sums it up for me.

That pretty much sums you - and your fellow Aussie Methodist cult members - up for me.

Anything that doesn't mesh with the assumptions of your religion gets chucked. Incident reports, videos, Aussie hostile environments and conditions, hook-in checker success rates, logical arguments... Not admitted to your perception of reality.

Jerry Furnell - 2012/07/23 10:56:05 UTC

Two pre-flights for me.
First is a major service... done when I've finished setting up.
The second one is a quickie when I hook in.

And nothing twenty minutes later when you launch.

The hardest part is having the discipline to do this when you are late on launch and in a hurry to get in the good air with your mates who are skying out.

Mental distraction is the enemy. Calm deliberation is your friend.

Yeah, there's no possible way calm deliberation about what you're gonna do when the next cycle comes in is gonna get you in trouble.

Asshole.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26691
Hooking in Down under :)

JJ Coté - 2012/07/22 11:35:01 UTC

It's amusing that the two camps here both dismiss the other as not being foolproof, and saying that the other one can put you in a hazardous position. I mean, I'm a hook-in-first guy, but that doesn't mean that I hook my harness in first and then just go on faith that I'm hooked in without any additional checks, and nobody advocates that. But by the same token, putting all of the faith into a check just before yelling "Clear!" works fine until you're dealing with tricky launch conditions and forget to do that.

I don't recall ANYONE advocating ANYTHING like that EITHER, asshole. Lemme try to 'splain to you how to do this right. You won't ever be able to get it but maybe somebody a bit less dense will have a shot.

1. WHEN you connect your harness to your glider, whether you're in it or not, VERIFY that the carabiner is fully engaged and closed - EVERY time. Assembly and preflight done.

2. WHEN you enter your harness, whether or not it's connected to your glider, VERIFY that you have your leg loops - EVERY time. Assembly and preflight done.

3. Move to launch.

4. Assume that your carabiner is only partially engaged. That will make you THINK about whether or not you waited until you heard it click. DO NOT turn around and inspect it UNLESS you have some reason to think you might not have heard it click.

5. Assume that you've missed your leg loops. That will make you THINK about whether or not you were careful getting into the harness and checking. If the glider's down at this point go ahead and touch them before you pick it back up if it makes you feel better 'cause there's virtually no risk cost or risk involved in doing so.

6. Assume that you're NOT HOOKED IN. Go on FAITH that you're NOT HOOKED IN. That will scare the crap out of you and:
- make you:
-- THINK about whether or not you:
--- unhooked to adjust your camera since your initial hook in and preflight
--- fully engaged your carabiner
- one hundred percent guarantee that you'll do a hook-in check JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH - just like it says in the fucking REGULATIONS.

And moving to launch while hooked in can be dangerous in some cases?

Any asshole who needs to to put a question mark after that sentence needs to have his rating revoked. And the asshole who signed his rating needs to have his rating revoked. In some cases just standing at launch with a full crew can be dangerous for all concerned ferchrisake.

Where I fly, there's at least one site where if I were trying to lift my glider up to feel the tug on my leg loops, that would be more hazardous (for me, at least), and I'd be inviting a blown launch.

1. Do we get to know the name of the site or is that some big fucking secret?

2. Can we at least get a description of the site and the reason why it won't accommodate a launch crew.

3. If it's so fucking marginal that tensioning your suspension would invite a blown launch it sounds to me like you're inviting a blown launch anyway and maybe oughta have your rating revoked.

4. OK, let's assume that lifting your glider up to feel the tug on your leg loops would be hazardous (for you, at least) and you'd be inviting a blown launch. So there's no possible way you can comply with this:

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

condition of your rating? Bullshit.

P.S.

1. The trickier the launch launch conditions the more shitless I'm scared that I'm not hooked in and the more shitless I'm scared that I'm not hooked the greater the probability that I'm gonna check that I am.

2. You cite ONE instance of someone who did regular hook-in checks missing one because of tricky launch conditions.