Wherever you put the blame and whatever a pilot should or shouldn't do the fact remains that on an otherwise ordinary (or at least manageable) tow pilots have been injured, killed and gliders bent because of weak-link failures.
But virtually never GOOD pilots.
Others experience these link failures at a height that makes no difference and are perfectly ok, many however will still have taken part in the "will it break at the wrong time" lottery.
These events could be drastically reduced by the simple action of strengthening the weak-link a bit above the best guess value made and adopted some 30 years ago. Not doubled, tripled or removed altogether, just beefed up so these link breaks become a rarity.
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.
AT LEAST. Triple to be safe.
What problems would this introduce that aren't there already and how unsafe would things suddenly become due to this extra bag of shopping worth of weak-link strength?
The pilot will still have a release.
In this country getting sold a "release"...
GT Manufacturing Inc. (GT) and Lookout Mountain Flight Park Inc. (LMFP) make no claim of serviceability of this tow equipment. There is no product liability insurance covering this gear and we do not warrant this gear as suitable for towing anything.
...and actually having one are rarely the same thing.
When the sh** hits the fan what is the difference between some random link break (or not) and some other random link break (or not).
If you use 130 pound fishing line and use a release you can't get to...
I once locked out on an early laminarST aerotowing. went past vertical and past 45 degrees to the line of pull-- and the load forces were increasing dramatically. The weaklink blew and the glider stalled--needed every bit of the 250 ft agl to speed up and pull out. I'm alive because I didn't use a stronger one.
...you'll be able to pull out after a mere 250 feet.
If we use 150 we'll eat up 288 feet and kill Marc. And hang gliding would never be the same without Marc. It's just not worth making the change when we have a proven system with a long track record.
Most pilots will go through their whole flying career without ever experiencing a lockout (thankfully) but most will have suffered some if not many weak-link failures during that same period.
The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.
I get it.
It can be a pisser.
...in good soaring conditions. In safe flying conditions we've got much better track records.
The odds are that, if anything, it's the link that will get you.
As long as its purpose is to increase the safety of the towing operation, who cares?
My last weak link break was 2010 at the Mid West Comp. I've been using the same weak link since then.
Well that's just great Craig. So we really don't need to know:
- what you were using for a weak link
- your flying:
-- weight
-- configuration - one or two point
- the:
-- material and diameter of the bridle on which the weak link is installed
-- situation at the time of the break
- why you didn't/couldn't release to defuse the situation - if any - that necessitated the break
- if your stupid ass would've been killed had the blow occurred below a particular altitude
- how many times you've towed since the 2010 at the Midwest Comp
- in what conditions you've towed since the 2010 at the Midwest Comp
- the:
-- tugs behind which you've towed since the 2010 at the Midwest Comp
-- rates of climb at which you've been pulled up
- if there were any lighter gliders with inferior pilots breaking the same weak link you're using
So my suggestion is, don't break your weak link and it won't cause you any problems.
WHOA!!! Could you repeat that so I can make sure I get it down and can get the word out to other pilots?
Just stop breaking your weak links and you won't have any problems.
- And when you're skating on the river just don't break through the ice and you'll be fine.
- And as long as you're trained to stay inside the Cone of Safety and get off tow before there is a problem you'll never need a release that doesn't stink on ice.
- And when you're doing standup landings just don't blow your flare timing and you won't break any downtubes or arms.
- And as long as you're hooked in when you start your launch run nobody will hafta be bothered recovering your body from the slope below the escarpment and your glider from the trees down the ridge a quarter mile.
- And as long as you just listen to useless assholes like Craig talking about how they haven't had any problems with their standard aerotow weak links and bent pin releases you'll never worry about the worst case scenarios in which standard aerotow weak links and bent pin releases cripple and kill people.
Well, with that astute observation I guess everybody's pretty much on the same page with respect to this issue and we can put it behind us and shift our focus to the helmets and parachutes people who fail to heed Craig's sage advice are always needing and using.
Thinking of getting a Sport 2 135, I'm 5'11", weigh 170 but hook in around 195. So what would the pros and cons of being close to the max rating of the wing?
Well hangster, now that we FINALLY know what kind of glider you're talking about, we can give you a number specific intelligent answer to your stupid question - not that I think you're the least bit interested in one.
Your maximum certified operating weight is 254 for pounds (and you're gonna be flying real close to that), you wanna be at one and a half Gs, so you want to limit your towline tension (tension is the word we use for what your crowd refers to as pressure) to 381 pounds.
So if you put the weak link between the towline and your bridle (which you don't) you'd shoot for 381 pounds.
A weak link at the top end of a two point bridle would be 219.
If you're flying one point go with 191.
But if I were you I'd use the numbers for the 155, the next size up - 310, 465, 267, and 233.
- The 135 is proportionally stronger - and, I'm thinking, would actually be able to handle more pounds of loading.
- There's no certified glider on the planet that's gonna bend or break under a 465 pound pull.
- And I'm sure a really responsible pilot such as yourself would be using the best releases available - like the ones Joe Street and Antoine Saraf produce which will handle a couple of Gs - rather than any of the Rooney endorsed Industry Standard shit Wallaby, Quest, Lookout, Blue Sky, and Davis push out their asses.
Well done.
Words of wisdom indeed. Here's another one...
If you don't want to pay to have your crashed car fixed, don't crash your car.
It's that simple.
I'd have gone for something more along the lines of:
If you don't want to get rear-ended, never be the last car in line at a red traffic light.
Craig Hassan - 2012/08/17 10:43:10 UTC
Exactly. I don't want to pay to replace my down tubes, so I don't break them.
I don't want to tow twice, so I stay up on my first tow.
What amazing talents you have. I've always dreamed of being able to remain aloft indefinitely after the cirrus moves in and shuts everything down.
Stay focused, stay in position, and stay in control. This flying thing is easy when you do that.
Yeah, you just can't go wrong staying within the Cone of Safety.
Bill Bryden - 2000/02
Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.
Mike Lake - 2012/08/17 10:14:26 UTC
A perfect HG pilot, the first I've come across in nearly forty years.
I'm honoured and thrilled for sure.
Aw, c'mon Mike. The Jack Show is OOZING with perfect pilots.
OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!?
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!!
I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for sh*t.... LEARN TO LAND That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh???
It's run by and exclusively for them.
Hell, there are only about two or three of them with such shoddy preflight procedures that they feel it necessary to make sure they're hooked in within five seconds of launch.
Craig Hassan - 2012/08/17 12:47:39 UTC
Truly I'm not perfect. Sometimes I have to take a second tow!
But, of course, only when God's on his lunch break and can't respond to your call for something within glide range going up at 250 feet per minute.
Zack C - 2012/08/17 12:59:38 UTC
So my suggestion is, don't break your weak link and it won't cause you any problems.
Would you tell that to Jonny Durand, who (among others) broke at least one weak link at Big Spring?
Of course he would. He just has.
Even a 'perfect pilot' will break a five pound weak link.
No fuckin' way, dude.
Avianonline Limited - 2012
It is helpful for the pilot to be able to supply their own weak link in case there is a problem of a too strong weak link else where in the system. (Good pilots use very light or weak weak links as high loads should not occur with a good tow. Beginners might be tempted to use a heavy weak link after multiple weak link failures. This is extremely dangerous and it is highly recommended that you have your towing videoed and then correct the pilot error and do NOT change the weak link for a stronger one.)
The better the pilot the lighter the weak link he uses. I myself just put a loop of spider web on my protow bridle. I don't even position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation 'cause I want my safety margins to be as wide as possible.
If ANY pilot breaks ANY weak link it's pilot error and a frame by frame analysis of the video will ALWAYS reveal it.
I've had weak links break on aerotows for seemingly no reason a number of times. I feel that this is dangerous and am suspicious of the wisdom of using 130 lb Cortland Greenspot for every pilot in every configuration.
So even the people you want me to listen to you don't agree with 100%. Is there /anyone/ that agrees with you completely? Do you realize how difficult what you're asking me to do is? You're asking me, a not particularly experienced H3, to discard most of what I've been taught about weak links and the convention that has been accepted at pretty much all aerotow flight parks and competitions and trade it for a practice that very few are endorsing. It's very hard for me to believe that the convention is the convention only because everyone following it is an idiot. I'm going to try to get the other side of the story from those who advocate the 130 lb loops. Everyone here seems to use them only because they've been told to (myself included).
Allowing your intelligence and common sense to be totally neutralized...
Welcome to Wallaby Ranch, the first and largest Aerotow Hang Gliding Flight Park in the World! We're the aerotowing (or "AT") professionals; no-one knows AT like we do; it's all we do, and we do it everyday, year-round.
...by a bunch of total shitheads from Florida who claim to be experts on towing 'cause it's all they do - every day, year-round. Same mistake I made - the biggest, longest, and stupidest (though not the most consequential) of my flying career.
Craig Hassan - 2012/08/17 14:53:26 UTC
Would you tell that to Jonny Durand, who (among others) broke at least one weak link at Big Spring?
Yes
If you told that to me I'd tell you to go fuck yourself - which I'll do anyway. Go fuck yourself.
I "pro-tow"...
Of course you do. You're so good that there's no fuckin' way you're ever gonna be in a situation in which you need the extra speed range. Same way you're so fuckin' good that you're never gonna need more thrust than that permitted by a loop of 130 pound Greenspot.
Maybe you should get a glider only certified to three Gs. You're so good that you're never gonna need anything stronger and you could save a lot of tubing weight.
Sport 2 155, U2 160, and now a Climax 14. I've weighed between 195 and 230lbs over the past few years. I've towed behind The Dragon Fly (from 2 stroke to 4 stroke turbo, about 8 or 9 different ones.) Kolbs and a Challenger at Hang Glide Chicago, and a trike at our home field. I was towing behind the Challenger when I broke my last link. 4 minute tow to 900'
Let's make your hook-in weight 230 pounds and put you on the 68 pound Wills Wing U2 160 whose maximum certified flying weight is 328 pounds.
You're a pro so you fly protow.
You put a 130 pound standard aerotow weak link - just perfect for you for whatever weight and glider you're flying - on an end of a one point bridle.
Thus your maximum tow tension is 260 pounds.
Or 87 percent of your flying weight.
Or 79 percent of your flying weight.
Which is one percent short of the legal bottom limit for hang gliders mandated by the FAA effective 2004/09.
But anyway...
How come you're not advocating that 200 pound gliders use 87 pound Greenspot on the ends of their one point bridles so they'll be just as safe as you are?
The white and green line that most places use is fine for the weight ranges I have been and the gliders I have flown behind the tugs that have provided my tows.
Yeah, the sacred white and green line that most places use is fine for the weight ranges you have been and the gliders you have flown behind the tugs that have provided you tows. So we don't really need to know how it translates to tow tension in different configurations, understand the concept of Gs, consider lighter and heavier gliders, or think about worst case scenarios.
I can't say much more for anyone else.
- Then shut the fuck up.
- You...
Just stop breaking your weak links and you won't have any problems.
Never said that they were pilot error. I just said don't break them and you won't have an issue.
Yeah, that was a really useful statement.
Tom Noddy said "Bubbles will last forever if they don't break."
Heard him say that when I was about 7 or 8 and kind of liked it.
I can tell.
As far as the video.
Obviously an early morning tow. (Not much thermal activity yet I would guess) So the tow would have been a fairly smooth tow, or maybe there was some wind and mechanical turbulence. (The tuft on your nose wire doesn't seem to show much ground wind.)
I do see the tug move up a little, but not enough to warrant the large input you made. (Bar 18-20" forward, from abdomen to almost above your head.)
So if a tug DOES move up enough to warrant the large input he made, don't even bother. The tow's over. Just release or let the standard aerotow weak link blow, land, and get back in line.
The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.
I get it.
It can be a pisser.
And if you miss the soaring window, so what? The conditions will probably be good tomorrow or next weekend. The important thing is that you were saved from having made a twenty inch positive pitch control input.
So since you asked for it, my opinion is YOU did cause the weak link to break. Don't be angry...
Speaking for myself... WAY too late for that request.
...you asked for my opinion...
He didn't ask for your OPINION. He asked for you to point out the error.
...and I gave it.
Yeah, Craig. That's the function of the standard aerotow weak link. To determine that no pilot who makes a twenty inch positive pitch control movement be permitted to remain on tow.
Never said that they were pilot error. I just said don't break them and you won't have an issue.
I'm afraid your point is lost on me, then. Did you have one, or was the statement meant purely in jest?
It's CRAIG. What's it matter?
Obviously an early morning tow. (Not much thermal activity yet I would guess) So the tow would have been a fairly smooth tow, or maybe there was some wind and mechanical turbulence.
It was actually around 3:30 PM. Thermal and mechanical turbulence (it was ridge soarable). After the break the tug pilot commented (as a possible explanation) that conditions were rowdy.
I do see the tug move up a little, but not enough to warrant the large input you made.
The GoPro's wide angle distorts distances. I've found tug movements are greatly understated in shots like this. But what the tug is doing in the video, or whether the input was warranted, isn't important...what's important is if an input like this could ever be warranted in some set of circumstances.
Not in the air in which Craig tows. It's always glassy smooth until he gets to release altitude. Then and only then does he command thermal activity to begin.
So since you asked for it, my opinion is YOU did cause the weak link to break.
I agree. That's why that was the last time I flew with 130 pound line. Inputs like the one exhibited in the video are common in rowdy conditions. I no longer worry about being dumped because of them.
Zack C - 2010/12/09 04:21:04 UTC
I think you've got me checkmated. No matter what I say you have a response and at this point I've got nothing left...I have no choice but to accept your position. I've seen so much fallacy from the people that push the universal 130 pound loop that I no longer doubt there isn't a good reason we use them. My hope for weaker links was aborting lockouts in the event of a release failure, but my thinking now is that if a lockout occurs low enough to end in a ground impact, it's likely this will occur before tension increases enough to break a 130 pound loop, and 130 pound loops are at risk of breaking at dangerous times. So yeah, having a better release is a much better idea.
This is hang gliding, Michael. You're not supposed to use or understand logic.
You had a thing and it broke needlessly.
You didn't want the thing to break needlessly.
You replaced the thing with a stronger thing.
Now the thing doesn't break needlessly.
I'm sorry, you just don't understand the "purpose" of a hang gliding weak link.
The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.
The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.
And, based on several decades of experience and hundreds of thousands of tows conducted by numerous aerotow operators across the county, the de facto standard has become use of a 260 pound weak link made as a loop of 130 pound Greenspot IGFA Dacron braided fishing line attached to one end of the pilot's V-bridle.
And you just don't mess with several decades of experience and hundreds of thousands of tows conducted by numerous aerotow operators across the county.
Kinsley Sykes - 2012/08/17 17:09:23 UTC
And now the thing might not break when you need it to...
Tost Flugzeuggerätebau
Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
He NEEDS it to break before his aircraft is overloaded. It WILL do that. But the aerotow situations which, in the absence of weak links...
In the my part of the world (flatland Sweden) where you have to tow to get some airtime no one uses weak links, I believe it is the same in Finland. Even most of the beginner training is done on tow in Sweden and without a weak link. Play the percentage, a weak link might save you one serious accident in a hundred years but will give you a lot of smaller accidents when it breaks.
...would result in an overload before a release could be used to separate the planes are virtually nonexistent. Notice nobody in this idiot discussion is talking about all the times he was really happy about his standard aerotow weak link blowing?
Given the choice, I'd rather it break when I don't need it...
Given the choice, I'd also rather you continue flying on Flight Park Mafia equipment, training, and theory. I just love it when assholes like you take themselves out of the gene pool and leave me with lotsa juicy mouthwatering data.
...than not break when I do...
While you're white-knuckling the basetube, praying for your Rooney Link to break before you can get into any more trouble, and thinking that the lever on your downtube might as well be on Mars.
...but I really don't want to open this can of worms..
Nah, you REALLY DON'T, motherfucker. 'Cause with THREE people in that discussion who know what the hell they're talking about (a new world record) you're gonna get your balls handed to you on a platter.
A weaklink break should be a non-event...
Yeah, it SHOULD BE a nonevent.
- Skyting Theory has been telling us for over thirty years it SHOULD BE a nonevent.
- Dr. Trisa Tilletti's expectation is that it will be a nonevent. Except during tandem training simulation - then they wanna be up high and in smooth air to make sure it's a nonevent.
- The USHGA fatality reports always make sure that weak link breaks are nonevents in the chain of problems which preceded the plummets.
I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.
...we always seem to have lots of events when these crappy little pieces of fishing line disintegrate.
...should all be nonevents. And lotsa times they are. But in aviation you've gotta do a lot of worrying about nonevents which become events one out of every ten or hundred thousand flights.
...if it's an event, I'd say the problem is with the pilot not the "thing"
So far I've only had negative experiences with weak links. One broke while aerotowing just as I was coming off the cart. Flared immediately and put my feet down only to find the cart still directly below me. My leg went through the two front parallel bars forcing me to let the glider drop onto the control frame in order to prevent my leg from being snapped.
SUPER! Then you'd say that we only need to worry about pilots that aren't perfect all the time. I sure am happy to know that that takes you out of the equation. Now I can just worry about me - I totally suck at just about everything I do.
Craig Hassan - 2012/08/17 17:33
In rowdy (booming or turbulent) air, a sharp pitch up is even more likely to break a link.
Yes Craig. That's exactly right.
- And what:
-- kind of air:
-- do most of us favor when we're thinking about heading to the airport?
-- are people looking for when competition venues are being considered?
-- happens to a glider when a weak link blows after a sharp pitch-up - regardless of whether it's due to pilot error...
What happened to him is not too unusual or mysterious. He encountered so much lift that although he was pulling in the base bar as far as he could, he did not have enough pitch-down control to get the nose down and return to proper position behind the tug. This situation is known as an over-the-top lockout.
I am personally familiar with such a problem, because it happened to me at a meet in Texas. Soon after lift-off the trike tug and I were hit by the mother of all thermals. Since I was much lighter, I rocketed up well above the tug, while the very experienced tug pilot, Neal Harris, said he was also lifted more than he had ever been in his heavy trike.
I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed. I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees.
I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending.
...getting slammed by something?
- And which G rating weak link is more likely to break after a sharp - or smooth - pitch-up: 0.8 or 1.5?
Partly because most tug pilots will be flying a little faster. The faster you go the less pitch up is required to break a link.
No shit.
Again Zack, your decision, but I see fault in your technique, not equipment.
Nah, there's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with ANY of our aerotow equipment. If there were we'd all be using something better.
And Zack shoulda CERTAINLY known enough to make only the most gradual of control inputs towing with a standard aerotow weak link - which is also the standard aerotow weak link for a 165 pound Falcon 3 145.
So what happened to this post? Who deleted it and why?
You had a thing and it broke needlessly.
You didn't want the thing to break needlessly.
You replaced the thing with a stronger thing.
Now the thing doesn't break needlessly.
Concise, logical and absolutely the correct thing to do.
I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
...we'd replace all of our bent pin releases with straight pin releases and use tug end weak links heavier than glider end weak links. Where would it all end?
However, if you had added ...
"And remove the pilot's release at the same time"
frankly, that would have been sh**.
...
But the gentleman quoted above didn't add that line so a pilot at the top end with his beefed up weak-link AND a release is going to suffer ... what?
I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.
- Being grounded until he conforms to the wishes of the Sacred Cult of International Dragonfly Drivers.
Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC
The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope.
- Risking getting a 250 foot length of Spectra draped over his basetube with the former front end tied to fence or treetop.
Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.
- Getting blacklisted by every Flight Park Mafia franchise in the country.
Is he not a perfect pilot able to release before he gets into trouble or does that logic not work at the top?
Nah, that's PERFECT logic. If Craig can stay focused enough to keep within half a degree of dead center of the Cone of Safety and never blow a loop of 130 pound Greenspot in any kind of air it shouldn't be much of a problem for any of the rest of us.
Surely a lockout can only be due to a crap pilot and is basically a non event.
Only if you use the standard aerotow weak link developed by the professionals at Wallaby which, if you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon)...
If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.
...will break before you can get into too much trouble.
(No of course not)
And I don't even know why somebody as good as Craig is flies with a release.
Lockout Mountain Flight Park - 2009/07/12
If properly used, there is a minimum of three ways to release from the towline. Do not depend on any of these ways by themselves and fly with a back up. The first release is the primary release which under certain situations may fail, second, is the secondary release that works most of the time, if all is set up correctly, and third, the weak link which will break under the right load. You should also fly with a hook knife that will allow you to cut the line if need be.
Why not just fly with a hook knife?
Paul Edwards - 2012/08/17 19:22:25 UTC
Tennessee
Can someone help 'dumb it down' for me?
Yes:
Tost Flugzeuggerätebau
Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
That's ALL you need to know about weak links. Anything more and you're heading down the rabbit hole.
I cannot exactly follow the debate... too many words and not always on the point.
Just figure out which people have triple digit IQs and focus on what they're saying.
As far as I can tell, the two sides of the debate are...
There IS no DEBATE here. There's no DEBATE between evolutionary biology and creationism.
1. Weak links should break during lockout, or other extreme towing circumstances, thus saving the pilot's bacon.
Yeah. They SHOULD. That's...
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
We want our weak links to break as early as possible in lockout situations, but be strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent weak link breaks from turbulence. It is the same expectation of performance that we have for the weak links we use for towing sailplanes.
...Dr. Trisa Tilletti's desire and expectation. But do I really need to again rattle of the list of smashed pilots who've proven beyond any shadow of a reasonable doubt that they DON'T?
Sure, a weak link that is weak enough to break during lockout may also break at random, unpredictable times but that is ok with me because I feel safer overall knowing that I have the weak link as a backup release mechanism.
- Meaning they have no confidence whatsoever in the Industry Standard piece of shit that their flight park sold them...
Lockout Mountain Flight Park - 2009/07/12
There is no product liability insurance covering this gear and we do not warrant this gear as suitable for towing anything.
...under the pretense that it was a release.
- Yes. They FEEL safeR. Meaning they don't feel - and ARE NOT - SAFE.
- They are ALWAYS afraid that their releases will be inaccessible and/or inoperable in a lockout and that their weak links will dump them into a stall. They're afraid that their standard aerotow releases won't work and their standard aerotow weak links will.
and on the other side
Consistent with the way things have always worked in sailplaning...
2. Weak links should never break unless the glider and/or tug...
Fuck the tug.
- His job is to get us safely to release altitude and part of that job is to keep his fucking weak link heavier than our fucking weak links.
- And we're allowed to have two G fucking weak links.
- And if he's endangered by a situation he's got a BUILT IN release system and lever on his joystick or pedal under his foot which WILL WORK - in stark contrast to the slap-on shit they sell and force the gliders to fly with.
- Also note that they don't fly with electronics which kill their engines when they get kicked around in turbulence, make abrupt authoritative control inputs, and climb steeply.
...is about to fail structurally. This is because a weak link that is any weaker may break at random, unpredictable times and that is very dangerous.
The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.
Is there really any DEBATE on this issue?
Zack C - 2012/08/17 19:25:23 UTC
Zack, let me see if I understand your logic.
I started using a stronger link because I had finally arrived at an understanding of what a weak link is for and what it can and cannot do. It just so happened the break on video occurred around the same time.
And now the thing might not break when you need it to...
Not a chance. It only needs to break before the glider, and the glider will never be anywhere near stressed with the weak link I'm using.
If you think the weak link might 'need' to break under some other circumstances, please tell us when a weak link should break...
If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), before you can get into too much trouble.
...and how you determine the breaking strength that will ensure it does in those circumstances.
Quest Air
A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 pound braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 pounds strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.
Kinsley Sykes - 2012/08/17 20:29:21 UTC
Zack - I choose not to get on the Tad part 2 merry-go-round. But please enjoy yourself.
Fuck you, you halfwitted cowardly little shit.
And lemme tell ya sumpin', Kinsley...
Steve Davy - 2011/08/31 10:11:32 UTC
Zack figured it out. Well done Zack! Enjoy your vacation.
Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC
Well actually he didn't. But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).
Davis Straub - 2012/08/13 18:08:42 UTC
Used to do 130 lbs. Now do 200 lbs.
After nearly twenty years of this lunatic bullshit the fucking morons who've been running the tow parks are starting to get on the T** at K*** S****** merry-go-round. And, the web being the web, the history of what was going on is gonna be a lot harder to bury than it was for the days of the Brooks and Lake Bridles.
That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh??? 
