Worlds organization critique - a response
Lessee... How many:Davis Straub - 2005/01/25
The Worlds should have been an aerotow meet only. There were very few car towers, but because of them the meet organization was dramatically affected for the worse. One of the meet organizers was car towing.
- car towing:
-- weak link failures did you have?
-- towlines did you lose?
-- release failures did you have?
-- lockouts did you have?
- fatal car towing lockouts did you have?
- competition days were scrubbed as a consequence of car towing fatalities?
Nah. Hard to imagine the competition going off any more smoothly than this one did.I don't feel that the Worlds were that badly organized...
Expectations of weak links which break as early as possible in lockout situations but are strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks from turbulence, gliders and towlines raining out of the sky because a weak link which breaks as early as possible in lockout situations but is strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks from turbulence exists only in the fevered imaginations of total idiots, dangerously unstable launch dollies, people slamming into runways 'cause their Industry Standard releases stink on ice and don't work even when/if you can get to them......but then I have a lot of experience in Australia, so I have some idea of what to expect and have a reasonable level of expectations.
If first you don't succeed flush the standards down the toilet.
Don't worry, Davis. The shittier competence levels, procedures, and equipment the more people will accept straight and level weak link failures, inaccessible and locked up releases, crashes, injuries, and fatalities as routine at all aerotowing operations on all sides of all borders.There are undoubtedly different expectations created by cultural differences.
Why?Putting on a Worlds is a lot different than putting on a Nationals. Meet organizers have to be sensitive to those differences and not just rely on their own instincts for what has worked well in the past. They need to listen carefully to CIVL officials and other team leaders.
http://ozreport.com/9.031
Worlds - Rohan speaks
We've got tug drivers to dictate to everybody how things are gonna be run. That's what we pay them for, isn't it?Rohan Holtkamp - 2005/02/06
The tug pilots wanted 80 kilogram weaklinks on the pilot end and that is EXACTLY what they got.
Yeah.They need to be very flexible and make changes quickly.
Right after several more decades of experience and several more hundreds of thousands of tows conducted by numerous aerotow operators across the county.Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
Based on several decades of experience and hundreds of thousands of tows conducted by numerous aerotow operators across the county, the de facto standard has become use of a 260 lb. weak link made as a loop of 130 lb. green spot IGFA Dacron braided fishing line attached to one end of the pilot's V-bridle.
http://ozreport.com/9.031
Worlds - Rohan speaks
Davis Straub - 2005/02/06
Rohan defends his organization against my defense of his organization.
Rohan Holtkamp (comments below in blue) at Dynamic Flight responds to my defense of the Worlds organization from a critique by Angelo.
Weaklinks are normally seen as a pilot responsibility (although sometimes the meet organizers have taken over that function - search the Oz Report for "joke weaklinks").
- 80 kilograms. 176 pounds. For yours truly 0.55 Gs. Fifty pounds over normal steady state 914 Dragonfly tow tension. A quarter G under the FAA minimum, a third what I want, a quarter of what I'm allowed to have.The tug pilots wanted 80 kilogram weaklinks on the pilot end and that is EXACTLY what they got.
- Fuck you, Rohan.
-- WE pay for those goddam Dragonflies and they exist ONLY to serve US. It's not the other way around.
-- If you'd have been worth shit as an organizer you'd have told Bill Moyes, Bobby Bender Bailey, and any other of those arrogant morons to either show up prepared to pull five hundred pounds or to go fuck themselves.
-- WHEN they refused you shoulda announced that you were scrubbing the meet if possible or resigning if not 'cause you had no competent drivers available to get the gliders safely off the ground.
-- Then you shoulda made as much stink as possible with the goddam national hang gliding organizations, CIVL, and the FAI.
- What put Robin out of control to begin with was a foot launch in which he left the ground dragging a tip.
-- Even with the crap carts available NOBODY else foot launched and NOBODY else had a dangerous low level control issue (not precipitated by a Local Rules precision weak link failure) anywhere close to takeoff.
-- A two G weak link has NEVER presented a threat to ANY tug equipped with a release which comes anywhere close to compliance with USHGA regulations.
-- An out of control glider has NEVER presented a threat to ANY tug equipped with a release which comes anywhere close to compliance with USHGA regulations either - but has the potential to pull the tug's tail around a bit.
-- How many of the shitheads comprising the tug fleet refused to tow foot launchers?
But, weaklinks really are a collective issue, because they affect the safety of tug pilots and other competitors. As Robin's death showed, one pilot's mistakes can affect everyone.
- Twisted, near ninety pounds under what they allow for tandem.The white material broke at 95 kg untwisted. 135 kg twisted. That's what the pilots ended up towing with!
- Still crap. Every single aerotow launch of that meet subjected the glider to a high risk of crashing because of the "safety" measures the Bailey-Moyes assholes were shoving down everyone's throats.
Why?Test this yourself, you should have a few in your harness still.
It's totally impossible to derive any useful information whatsoever from bench testing. The proper procedure is to just declare a weak link to be any rating you want it to be and tell people that it's optimized to break as early as possible in lockout situations, but be strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks from turbulence.Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
USHGA Towing Committee Chairman
We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.
Ya know what sailplanes do, douchebag? They get Tost weak link assemblies for both ends of the towline and leave them there forever.We are missing nearly four hundred assemblies, so on average each aerotower should have three to four.
First, the rules should allow pilots who break weaklink under five hundred feet to come back and launch again at the front of the line. This may seem unfair, but we need this to discourage pilots from eliminating weaklinks.
Fuck you and fuck Florida.Yes I agree. We just copied the refly rules I experienced in Florida.
Second, for the good of the meets, the meet organization should include their weaklink (adjusted for pilot and glider weight) in the tow line at the pilot end.
My all up weight is 145 kilograms - asshole.This was provided from the first practice day, I personally helped prepare the weaklinks for 115 to 123 kg all up weight from this time.
They did this here after Robin's death, by putting a weaklink between two rings, hooking one ring to the pilot's tow bridle and the other to the tow rope. The pilot can have any weaklink that they want, but the meet organizers have their weaklinks also, on both ends of the tow line.
What's your goddam point?Robin chose to refuse ours before the tow.
I one hundred percent guarantee you that if he used your fucking weak link but refused to fly with a hook knife there'd have been volumes written about what an asshole he was for not flying with a hook knife and how critically important it is to have one every time you tow.
The Worlds should have been an aerotow meet only. There were very few car towers, but because of them the meet organization was dramatically affected for the worse. One of the meet organizers was car towing.
Of course it was. Once an organizer has seen to it that he's got tug drivers all united on the issue of eighty kilogram lockout preventers and tug protectors and all the gliders equipped with Industry Standard releases and dollies his job is done.Organising is done before the meet commences. My 'organising hat' was taken off as soon as the meet commenced.
It matters not a whit that the dollies are all unstable, gliders and towlines are raining out of the sky 'cause the weak links are inadequate on the back end and even more inadequate on the front end, the lockout preventers do absolutely nothing to prevent lockouts, and the Industry Standard releases had lethal accessibility, capacity, and functionality issues.
Once you've organized the perfect meet and the first glider hooks up for Task One that 'organising hat' comes off.
How much did three days of competition round aerotowing cost Robin?Some countries/pilots could not afford the aerotowing, me included.
What was the overall lost airtime cost to the competitors - many of whom had traveled with their gliders from halfway around the planet - of the two competition days being scrubbed as a consequence of Robin's three days of competition round aerotowing?
What strength weak link did your truck driver permit you to use?
I don't feel that the Worlds were that badly organized, but then I have a lot of experience in Australia, so I have some idea of what to expect and have a reasonable level of expectations. There are undoubtedly different expectations created by cultural differences.
Yeah, it's always a good idea to throw a fatal lockout on launch into the model upon which you're basing your expectations.Thank you. True.
Putting on a Worlds is a lot different than putting on a Nationals. Meet organizers have to be sensitive to those differences and not just rely on their own instincts for what has worked well in the past. They need to listen carefully to CIVL officials and other team leaders. They need to be very flexible and make changes quickly.
So you knew you were gonna kill somebody during the planning stages but figured that everyone else was gonna have enough fun to put the overall picture into the black.Every detail that ended up becoming a problem was already forseen.
Fishing line tier, wreckage clearer, family notifier, accident investigator, coverup designer...Concise job descriptions were written by the organisers (Sandra and I) to prevent the same old pitfalls seen time and again over the last sixteen years of 'comping'.
You found a functionally literate comp director? How? Who was it?The comp director would have had a far easier time if he had read the detail a little more carefully and did not ad-lib so much.
Goddam right it's gonna go on forever. You're gonna leave in place...(editor's note: I'll not leave my response until the next issue in this case, as this could go on forever (and there is more in the next issue).
http://ozreport.com/9.009
2005 Worlds
...the STANDARD spinnaker release found on bridle systems used at Lookout Mountain, Moyes, Wallaby Ranch, and Quest Air which finished Robin; continue...Davis Straub - 2005/01/11
The weaklink was caught on the release mechanism, a standard spinnaker release found on bridle systems used at Lookout Mountain, Moyes, Wallaby Ranch, and Quest Air.
This type of release mechanism has been banned (at least for a short while) from the Worlds at Hay.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap
...endorsing it; sabotaging and locking down any discussions...Davis Straub - 2011/07/30 19:51:54 UTC
I'm very happy with the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27494
The exciting bits
Steve Davy - 2012/04/27 01:55:17 UTC
Why did you delete my post?
...about equipment that actually works; and promoting...Davis Straub - 2012/04/27 02:42:02 UTC
Tad's name.
http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules
...the standard aerotow weak link as a lockout preventer and primary release mechanism.Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC
Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.
Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
As long as you're being attacked by someone... What the hell.Since I was writing a defense of the Worlds organization against the attack from Angelo, I find it interesting that I'm being attacked by the side that I am defending.
That's supposed to be one word.None the less,
Pilot briefings like:1. There were problems with the radio pilot briefings...
The tug pilots wanted 80 kilogram weaklinks on the pilot end and that is EXACTLY what they got.
Did you have any ribbons at launch to avoid another Eric Aasletten / Mike Nooy rerun? Just kidding.2. The physical goal must be much closer to the GPS goal than 1.74 kilometers...
3. I specifically observed that there were no wind socks at the ends of the goal line on the last day (the only day that I officially made goal).
Maybe you should follow the fucking FAA regulations for weak links and otherwise leave the fucking responsibility for the fucking weak links to the fucking pilots fucking using them.4. At the Bogong Cup there were virtual goals and free drinks at goal.
5. Rohan seems to have misinterpreted my comment about gag weaklinks. This refers to a problem that Quest Air had the first year they ran their meet and refers in general to the problems that could arise (theoretically) when a meet organizer takes over this responsibility and the responsibility for weaklinks is now on his/her shoulders.
Stealing weak links from an aerotow operation is a lot like stealing Lyme Disease infected Deer Ticks from Shenandoah National Park.6. I didn't take any weaklinks from the Worlds. I certainly never had any to take. No pilot that I am aware of took any. Any insinuation that we (the pilots I know) stole any weaklinks deserves a formal apology.
Got that right, motherfucker.7. Later, when the meet organizers provided weaklinks that were actually attached to the tow line by the tow marshals then it didn't matter what the pilot's wanted.
What difference does it make? There's always a weak link on the Dragonfly that's gonna keep them down to dangerously low maximums anyway.If they wanted to be hooked to the tow line, they had to hook to the weaklink on the tow line.
Big fuckin' deal. Someone who shows up at a flight line unprepared to fly needs to learn that he needs to be prepared to fly when he shows up at a flight line.8. Tow line marshals were very reluctant to provide weaklinks (until the big change after Robin's death) insisting that pilots were responsible for their own weaklinks and they could only have one of the precious meet supplied weaklinks if they absolutely needed it just before they launched.
Yeah. That's why I have some major problems with Rohan.Other than that, it looks like Rohan and I agree.)
