Odd day with nice air, and unexpectedly ratty air at times.
A friend on the ground indicated wind had shifted due north which meant landing cross-field...
No. That meant that the wind had shifted due north. How you reacted to that information was up to you.
...which isn't quite the nice uphill that the normal approach is for the site.
1. I'm not all that impressed with what the Woodstock crowd considers a "normal" approach. Hardly anyone seems to have much regard for the real estate in the downwind/downhill end of that pasture or practice for short field landings.
2. So maybe the nice uphill was a more important consideration than the crosswind.
3. And maybe you can have your cake and eat it too. Come in at the north extremity of the field, track the treeline southeast/clockwise, turn onto final low from the southern extremity. You'll land uphill and into the wind and have tons of runway left over in front of you.
4. The air's usually so fuckin' dead down there anyway that it really doesn't matter all that much which way you're pointed.
5. Or in a less luxurious field - split the difference between straight uphill and straight upwind.
6. Landing uphill - even with a substantial tailwind - is brain dead easy.
I decided to come up the south tree line and stayed too close to the trees. I should have been a glider span inside the treeline...
Or right over them but carrying a lot of speed - which you majorly weren't.
...but was worried about overshooting.
If you're worried about overshooting - which everybody should be - DON'T THROW AWAY THE FIRST HALF OF THE FIELD BEFORE YOU'VE STARTED AND ENTER IT AT ITS CREST!!! Think runaway truck ramp.
It would have been a non-event but just as I cleared the tree line to turn in on final...
1. You turned onto final at 2:56 - thirty five seconds before you fully stopped the glider. Tighten up your approach.
2. No. It wouldn't have been a nonevent. It would've been extremely dangerous 'cause what DID happen to you COULD HAVE happened to you. In fact it would've been more dangerous in the long run 'cause you wouldn't have had the excellent feedback you got as things were.
...I got wholloped and found myself getting flung all over the place.
Remember what I was saying about speed?
Just happened to find that dip in the trees to make it through. Could have been very bad.
Yes. Landing in the trees tends not to be that big a fucking deal. Clipping them at the edge of the field is a really good way to get killed.
I'm pretty sobered from the experience.
You're a Three. You shoulda been drilled so shit like that would never have happened well before your Two was signed off. (But I'll bet you got plenty of spot landing practice.)
But don't worry about it. You're still not doing hook-in checks so you were dead before you started anyway.
P.S. Snug your spreader bar up a bit more and get it level - it's really starting to bug me.
Like I said before, this glider will give you more reach to get to other LZs. Are there any others you guys can use? After watching you make approaches there, that LZ kinda gives me the creeps.
Did the thought of landing at Ridgely Airpark give you the creeps after carrier pilot John Simon flew into a taxiway sign and broke two arms? That wasn't my response.
Recommendations:
- Start doing some of your approaches where more of your legs on that approach are within/inside the treeline border of the LZ.
1. Fuck that. Nobody stays inside of the treeline approaching that field - or needs to. Stay right over the treeline and get your speed up on base.
2. Did you wanna say anything about his speed, the fact that he wasted half the field before he came into it, or his unhealthy fixation on the center? Just kidding.
- Get a drag chute. When you need it, that will bring your glide when you pull in closer to what you experienced with your Falcon. Then you won't have to cut it so close when coming in over the treeline.
1. Yes. Get a drag chute.
2. Anybody who needs a drag chute to stop in that field should be busted down to Hang One before he gets to the breakdown area.
I can't picture trying to put my Atos down in that field. At least not without a drag chute.
I can't believe you're saying that. The bulk of this idiot testosterone poisoned sport is geared From Day One, Flight One to train everyone to do a no-stepper inside the only survivable twenty-five foot radius circle in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place and now you're saying that the thought of coming down in this brain dead easy well grazed pasture is paralyzing you with fear?
I can put my HPAT 158 down in the first quarter of that field any day of the week in my sleep.
Glad you made it!! Oh... and congrats on getting to 4100.
2200 after you subtract out the top of the ridge where he started.
- Do whatever you need to to get uncomfortably low over the westernmost corner of the field and head back east over the treeline with a bit of speed. You can't get in much trouble because you're flying downwind, downhill, and fast.
- If you got dumped - which you wouldn't - it wouldn't matter. You'd just roll to the left/north and you'd be low with the whole goddam field in front of you.
- When you get to the southernmost extremity turn onto base. If you're still a bit high swing a bit wide and turn onto base. If you got dumped - which you wouldn't - it wouldn't matter. You'd just roll onto final.
- Build a bit more speed on base / over the treeline as you proceed to the easternmost extremity of the field / low point on the treeline. If you're still high when you get there overshoot a bit and 180 back.
- Snap onto final. If you still wanna kill altitude slip in by pulling in and rolling.
- Now you'll have tons of speed for control and to handle gradient and/or turbulence and you'll be almost down and looking up at a pretty substantial hill it'll take you five minutes to crest after you've landed.
You can keep getting away with the mediocre job you're doing in this video but you won't be learning anything about how to get into a tight field - and executing what I described is kinda fun.
wonderwind_flyer - 2012/10/14 16:09:35 UTC
NW Michigan
For many sites with uphill LZ geography it is often best to land uphill no matter what the wind direction is.
Told ya so, Jesse.
I assume the wind on this day was crossing from the north at the time of landing? Approximately how strong was it?
I very much doubt strong enough to have made a change in the final leg of the approach advisable.
I am also curious if higher performing gliders (Litespeed and T2C for example) have any extra challenges with the Woodstock LZ.
No. Again, for anybody who knows how a field should be approached, the place is brain dead easy.
I am asking these questions because I am planning to spend some time in Virginia this spring and Woodstock will probably be the place I'll fly most often.
It's a great site.
Thanks Much for sharing the videos ... it is always helpful to see footage of launches and landings of new flying sites.
Ryan Voight - 2012/10/14 16:35:37 UTC
That was exciting! Thanks for posting- a valuable lesson right there!
Only because the lessons he paid for leading up to his Hang 2 totally sucked.
A few questions, for the sake of learning...
- Have you thought about why the conditions were the way they were? You say it was an odd day with nice air, and then unexpectedly ratty at times. If you can put together some ideas, even after the fact, it will help you predict/identify days like this in the future.
To what end? So he can just choose perfect conditions and assume that he won't be hit by anything at any critical points in the day's activities and fly accordingly?
- After seeing the video of your approach, what (if anything) would you have done differently.
My vote is damn near everything.
I do not mean flying a different approach, although you might be doing that in the future.
Other than getting drunk and trying to take that icy curve at eighty, what would you have done differently during the drive back from the New Year's Eve party?
But I mean you have a plan- you're flying your approach, and you get hit... are you happy with how you reacted, or would you do something different if you could have that moment back?
I decided to come up the south tree line and stayed too close to the trees. I should have been a glider span inside the treeline...
Unexpected stuff will always happen, so learning how to best react and deal with that stuff is key.
Yeah Jesse... Listen to Ryan. If you're ever in a low level lockout...
It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.
Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release
...don't forget that your loop of 130 pound Greenspot makes a great instant hands free release.
And if you keep skipping hook-in checks...
Hang Gliding For Beginner Pilots - 1990
Lockout Mountain Flight Park
Grab onto the base tube, then throw your parachute with the other hand. As the parachute opens, it will pull you away from the glider. Let go and ride down under canopy.
And get yourself some good books on hang gliding. They're all loaded with lotsa really great tips like this.
If I did land in the trees, it would have been smart to choose the spot and pull in to plow into it and stick.
Yes, but this is pretty low priority on the list of things we need to be talking about (especially since you know it already).
Would be bad to hit and spin on the edge of the line and fall into the LZ. Is that the kind of stuff you mean?
Ryan Voight - 2012/10/15 03:45:43 UTC
That's one thought, for sure. And def worth considering in a situation like that. Mentally it's hard to let go of the idea that you can save a bad situation but like you say, clipping the edge of the trees and falling into the field is about as bad as it gets.
I'd say going through a program run by someone like Paul or Ryan Voight is a about as bad as it gets. That - for one thing - predisposes you to skipping hook in checks. And what can - and occasionally DOES - happen several seconds after a skipped hook-in check tends to be a lot worse than clipping a tree at the edge of a field.
From the security of my armchair it also looked like you could have been "on it" a little better when you got hit, too. There was a bit of a delay in your reaction, and your input response looked a little timid. Then you went around the far side of that taller tree versus rolling hard and getting in the field ASAP.
Yes.
Obviously, I wasn't there, and I don't know what you felt or thought at the time... that's why I ask if you had any thoughts like that after going back and watching the video?
CAL - 2012/10/15 13:41:59 UTC
I know you have a good feel, Ryan, for what the day will bring. I have been flying for several years now and don't think I have ever encountered the same conditions. I have a good idea what to expect and, as you said, still get surprised.
I used to think that Ryan was much too conservative. When he had an H2 clinic...
To get or for?
We watched several good thermal cycles come through, I felt Ryan should have sent them off much sooner. As it was they all had safe unsurprising...
...boring...
...conditions.
It wasn't till later I learned to appreciate his approach. I was at a site that I fly frequently. I waited till a good cycle came through, expecting a smooth launch. I made it through the run and as soon as I transitioned my left wing abruptly lifted.
Sounds like you violated Christopher's Five Second Rule. MUCH better to be upright with your hands on the downtubes - you've got a lot better roll authority that way.
From there I was in auto pilot and muscle memory took over. As I got the glider level and flew away safely from the terrain, that is when I realized the importance of Ryan's Conservative approach. If my reaction time would have been a fraction slower things would have turned out much differently, it is so important that the conditions match are experience level.
Make it an aerotow launch. You've got a Wallaby Release lever on your starboard downtube.
Matt Taber - 1990
One of the biggest dangers in towing is the lock-out. In a lock-out, the tension of the line overpowers the pilot's control authority, and the glider rolls hard to one side. If the pilot fails to correct, the glider may dive and roll to the ground.
Lockouts usually happen when a pilot allows the glider to roll too far off heading, so that the tow line is pulling the glider at a sharp angle.
Lockouts can be prevented by using good technique, light tow pressures, and appropriately-sized weak links--if you get too far off heading, and a lockout begins to develop, a proper weak link will break and release you from tow.
Think you're gonna live? Think you can afford to wait until your appropriately-sized weak link breaks as early as possible in your lockout situation? How 'bout...
LMFP Release
I sent 3 times this email to fly@hanglide.com without any answer !!! :
Hello
I recently purchased one of your Aerotow Primary Releases for use in aerotowing tandem gliders. We conduct a tandem aerotowing operation just south of Paris, France.
We have been having considerable trouble releasing when the line is under high tension. It takes considerable effort to pull the Rope-Loop release, often requiring two or three violent tugs on the loop.
...now?
What you just said was that you needed every ounce of your reaction speed and control authority to keep things out of the toilet. Throw in a towline which is gonna accelerate the roll and make it non recoverable and use a release that forces you to take a hand off the controls and/or won't work when you need it to.
Any comments on Donnell's Skyting theory and newsletter, Hang Gliding For Beginner Pilots, Towing Aloft, or Dr. Trisa Tilletti's Higher Education magazine article series?
It's a little hard to tell from a GoPro video, but it looked like a lot of the clouds had shredded edges. There were some pretty open areas of blue, but also some fairly large, dark-bottomed clouds too. And in this frame grab:
I might see a double-stacked lenticular cloud? Can't say for sure, as I wasn't there...
When it comes to reading conditions, there are signs all around, but you need to know what to look for and what they mean. This takes FAR longer than learning the mechanics of how to launch/fly/land a glider... but I'd say it is far more important to your safety over the long term.
Is that where we're having our problems, Ryan? People launching into stuff they can't handle or comes as a total surprise?
Jesse didn't come twenty percent of the way to killing himself on this one 'cause he was flying in conditions that were way over his head or somewhat insane. He came twenty percent of the way to killing himself 'cause he's got no fuckin' clue how to approach a field. And could've EASILY learned that in the classroom and should've been taught it before John signed his Two.
Best thing you can do is make every day a learning experience. What did you see, what did you expect, where were you right or wrong, figure out why for next time...
Wanna talk about the approach and speed?
After a while, between checking forecasts online and looking at the signs on launch, you'll find yourself being right more and more often... and if you have more accurate conditions readings, you can make better fly/no-fly decisions.
1. It was an EXCELLENT beautiful flying day. Anybody who would've broken down on launch woulda been a total moron.
2. If you're gonna stay home because the forecast indicates you might get bounced a little approaching a field you should probably stick to simulators.
3. What you see in the forecasts frequently bears virtually no similarity whatsoever to what you find by the time you've driven to Woodstock, shuttled vehicles, hiked in, set up, and waited for all the potatoes.
4. If there are a couple dozen gliders in the air on any given day the chances are pretty good that it's gonna be survivable at both ends of the flight.
5. We've had a few conditions based ugly ones at Woodstock - but not 'cause of any subtle little go / no go issues.
I agree with your assessment that you should have been "a glider span inside the field".
IF he was gonna come into the field along that route he should've been OVER the treeline with lotsa speed.
Why be that low over trees?
Why be that low and SLOW over the trees?
Why try to land the short axis of the field when the long axis is so much safer? I think HG pilots get hung-up on having a final approach into the wind.
Bull's-eye.
It's safer to take the long axis of a field that is somewhat into the wind. There is a procedure for this type of approach where you fly your desired line of flight on final with a crab angle into the wind. This is a great tool to have.
So how come he' has to hear this from you and wasn't tuned in when he was getting his Two?
Ryan Voight - 2012/10/15 18:28:27 UTC
Re: crosswind landing
Watch his ground track when he does turn in and land. He's still crosswind.
I don't see anything worth mentioning when he's on final.
That field has a slope to it...
Yeah, but not anywhere near the area where he's coming in - flat as a pancake for the purpose of the exercise.
...and it looks to me like he chose a line that compromised quarter crosswind, quarter length-ways-and-uphill.
He's flying straight into the wind on essentially flat ground.
Landing straight across a sloped hill can be tricky, with one wing tip very close to the ground.
Not the least bit relevant to this situation.
Landing downhill is trickier still.
Landing downhill is synonymous with crashing into the fence or treeline.
It looks, to me, that if he truly landed along the long-length of the field, he would have been 100% cross-wind...
The long axis of that field is Runway Thirty - and close to two thirds of that is fairly steeply uphill. Assuming he's landing straight into a north wind - which I am because it appears that he is - if he had come in on Thirty he'd have had a sixty degree right cross. 'Cept it would've been so dead in the first half of the field that he wouldn't have noticed.
...or possibly even had a tail?
No freakin' way.
Also- most sites where you're landing crosswind regularly, it's in smooth laminar air. Clearly, this was not the case on this day.
He gets kicked coming in slow right over the treeline - probably because of mechanical turbulence. There's zilch going on in the field after that.
Unless you're supremely confident in your landing abilities...
1. By which you mean FOOT landing abilities.
2. Anyone who's confident in his foot landing abilities is a total moron.
...(he's only had a couple flights on that glider), minimizing ground speed at the point of touchdown is a wise decision.
If he lands on the first half of Runway Thirty he's in dead air and he can flare the crap out of the glider and it won't matter - while he's going up the ground will be going up with him.
The uphill grade of that LZ is pretty steep. After I landed, some other pilots landed fine doing a more conventional approach up hill, though they landed diagonal up the field to minimize the crosswind.
Told ya so.
Part of the reason I did my approach like I did was that I was emulating an approach I'd seen an experienced pilot do on a similar day where it went north in that LZ late in the day. The last thirty minutes of my flight led me to believe the air was calm enough to make that a smart choice.
1. It was a waste of:
- available runway
- an opportunity to practice a good DBF approach pattern
2. It would've worked anyway if you'd come into the treeline with some speed.
Goes to show we have to be ready with a plan for the unexpected.
What's your plan for what you're gonna do when you start running off a ramp and find the glider riding up a lot higher than usual?
Nothing dramatic going on here. Just back on a double-surface wing after a month away with that fractured ankle. Got some wheels to work nicely with the VG rope on my Sensor 610 F3 152 and made the most of it on a very marginal Friday afternoon. Fun landing too.
I had two nice encounters with red-tail hawks that both showed me where the best lift was and neither had issues with me flying close. I do need to use a helmet or chin-guard mount to really capture these moments.
I always thought these wheels looked pretty odd and picked up this pair new for cheap and thought I'd pass them along to a new pilot. They are the precursor to the six and a quarter inch diameter Seedwings Europe streamline wheels that have since been superseded by the Raven Sports wheels.
I bought the eight by two inch pneumatic Finsterwalder wheels with the machined aluminum VG hubs from Wills Wing and was going to adapt them to my Sensor which has a one inch round control bar. But then I got to thinking that these wheels which have a flat tread should work fine as long as I land on our groomed grass surface and skim in cleanly.
I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.
No shit.
What I learned to keep my harness protected is to bend my knees and do a pushup off the control bar while I'm in ground effect. This reduces the contact area of the harness to a small section of apron below the main bridles. The other thing I learned is to pull in once the wheels touch and try to keep the glider balanced until it slows down and then let it settle onto the keel tip.
Get skid plates.
Yesterday, provided a nice soaring opportunity at Sylmar and I flew the Sensor with the six and a quarter inch wheels. It was forty degrees at 6K and I got an ice cream headache when I opened my visor. No more two-mile in T-shirt flying for a while. If I do any X/C on the Sensor while my ankle is still healing or tender, I will mount the eight inch pneumatics.
Landing clinics don't help in real world XC flying. I have had the wind do 180 degree fifteen mile per hour switches during my final legs. What landing clinic have you ever attended that's going to help? I saved that one by running like a motherfukker. And BTW - It was on large rocks on an ungroomed surface.
When I come in on many of these flights with sloppy landings, I am often physically and mentally exhausted. That means fatigued to the max. Many times I can't even lift my glider and harness, I'm so pooped.
This is the price of flying real XC. I have seen many a great pilot come in an land on record-setting flights and they literally just fly into the ground and pound in. I kid you not.
None of this is any excuse mind you. There has to be a methodology for preparing to land safely and cleanly while exhausted. This is NOT something I have worked on.
Jim Rooney's one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.
I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.
I like what Steve Pearson does when he comes in and may adapt something like that.
Be glad you don't fly XC where I do. It really sucks here in the LA Basin and I'm tired of all the hazards.
Then maybe you should fly XC a little less aggressively and gear your flights a little more towards identifying and staying in range of safe fields.
Look at your progression here, Jonathan. Flying XC *IS* cool and has it's rewards but if you're pushing so hard that you're getting tired of putting yourself in positions with narrow safety margins then you need to step back and look at what you're doing.
Unless you can keep the flying fun it's not worth it - and there's nothing fun about breaking toes and ankles in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place because your flare timing and execution were less than perfect.
- "Oh, that's so much more brainless than landing on your feet!"
- "That was beautiful!"
- "That was a GREAT landing, Rotor!"
- "Who cares if it's downwind!"
- "Ooh shit, that was awesome!"
I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.
Maybe a landing like that is enough fun to be worth trading a mile or so's worth of distance every now and then.
Mike Blankenhorn - 2012/10/29 02:41:06 UTC
Orange County
Despite myself I still had a fun day because I simply refuse to let things get to me though I had plenty of reason.
Upon discovery of a good size dent in my right leading edge, outside just where the sail edge meets the tube a couple of inches from the tip.
Sounds like something that can be very safely ignored.
I still flew ave S.
Successfully, I see.
Today I asked Greblo if I could use one of his gliders, which he kindly lent me to fly. After getting all my gear situated the hang loops turned out way too long so I shortened twice until acceptable.
Were you able to get through the flight with the main holding?
Now that I could finally launch I cleared launch help and then was waiting without assistance for a warm bubble and as a result of that delay I wound up with the left wing lifted into what we later determined was a half turtle.
1. Given the conditions people had been seeing and feeling, how unlikely was it that you'd get hit by something that put you out of control at launch?
2. Is there any possibility that you could've been hit by something like this at a critical moment during launch and left the top in the kind of shape that Eric Thorstenson did a bit under four months ago?
3. I guess at this point you've concluded that it was a bad idea to clear all of your help. So how responsible was your help in clearing when and because you cleared it?
I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.
...have been more fun if you had pulled off the standup landing?
Oh wait - I forgot. Everybody in Southern California always lands in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place. So you HAD to do a standup.
So how badly were you hurt as a result of not being able to pull off the standup in the narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place? More or less than you would've been if you'd stayed prone the whole way?
I did check the down tubes on Joe's glider BEFORE I went up to make sure they were not bent which I thought he had asked me to do...
1. What do you think he had asked you to do with respect to a sidewire load test?
2. Which do you think is more likely to kill you - a downtube bent so slightly that you need to check carefully to identify the issue or a sidewire with no obvious defects?
...but neglected to do a thorough check after because after all the times the glider came in contact with the ground were gentle, or so I thought (what could happen, right?).
So from this can we assume that Joe found a bend so slight that you didn't notice anything during breakdown?
Anyways in the mayhem of it all I did not treat the free borrowed glider with the proper respect I should have.
1. Oh well, Joe doesn't treat his students with the proper respect he should. If he did he wouldn't be teaching them to piss all over the USHGA rating requirement...
With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
...mandating a hook-in check JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH and wouldn't be brainwashing them with loads of crap about standup landings...
Christian Thoreson - 2004/10
Thus wheel landings, the safest and easiest way to consistently land a hang glider...
...being the only safe way to stop a glider.
2. You treated it as you would have your own glider.
After the minor hang loop irritation and then being blown over at launch I was thinking for a moment that maybe I am forcing the issue at this point and maybe I should just pack up...
You shouldn't have been.
...but tenacity prevailed only to sink out and then whack on landing.
Which you wouldn't have happened with a sane wheel landing - which, if Joe were halfway competent in the matter of threat prioritization, he'd have advised WAY ahead of carefully inspecting the goddam downtubes.
My apologies to Joe Greblo and thank you for lending me your glider, of course I will replace the downtube.
1. If it was bent so slightly that you didn't notice anything during breakdown and it was my glider I'd have straightened it, mentioned it, and told you not to worry about it.
2. Was it faired? What does it cost? Was the practice for landing in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place worth it?
On the upside, I did fly my approach with one hand on the base tube and one on the down tube...
despicable atrocity of a video and had ANOTHER of his students launch unhooked from a major league site four months and a day ago had absolutely no comment on it?
P.P.S.
Mike Blankenhorn - 86767 - H2 - 2008/09/03 - Rob McKenzie - FL
Tell Rob to go fuck himself for me too.
P.P.P.S. Notice that the only person who gave evidence of having understood the message of that article was a goddam Hang Two.
landing.
