You are NEVER hooked in.

[Tad Eareckson]

This is a McClure launch where the pilot is waiting through the excessive and turbulent conditions to launch into a lull.

Yeah. Excessive and turbulent conditions but no wire assistance whatsoever and at least two guys standing around at launch - one behind the camera and another with a bottle in his hand.

Back here we have got some ramps where we use and need seven man crews - nose, wings, and tail and backups at all positions other than the nose.

And I had a launch off the north McConnellsburg ramp on 1997/03/23 in which a surge came through and I had to clear my crew when their arms were raised as high as the they would go to ensure that they wouldn't continue along with me as I was going straight up.

And my day went a lot better than Bob Gillisse's would nine and a half months later after he scaled the back of that ramp to meet his three man crew and all concerned were assuming he had hooked in just behind it and done his usual fucking hang check.

Notice that the glider does not pop into the air like on laminar breeze launches.

Yeah. Obviously because of the severe gradient and gut wrenching, wing tearing turbulence.

The pilot has done an assisted hook in check...

Read hang check.

...in the relative calm behind the launch.

Fer sure. Nobody in his right mind would risk any kind of verification of his hook-in status in the howling gale tearing through at launch position. Excellent judgment. If he's not a Five already that demonstration of maturity should earn him one without any other check of his qualifications.

The pilot is fighting...

Gallantly and ferociously. Maintaining at all times the spine and stiff upper lip he needs to fight the temptation to ask for a little help on his wire - and knowing that to do so would earn him an indelible reputation as a faggot.

...to keep the angle of attack low to the oncoming wind to keep the glider under control.

Sorry, could you repeat that? My eyes were blinded be the tears of the emotion of admiration I'm feeling for Jimmy right now.

Launch is affected by watching the grass and bushes below launch.

Positively or negatively? Has anybody done any studies to determine how launch is affected by smoking weed?

When a short lull comes through, it's size and intensity will be indicated by the grass and bushes. A split second decision is made to launch and then you launch.

Yeah, I figure he has to hit a window of about three tenths of a second. Anything before or after would spell instant death - or worse.

No time for lift and tug.

OBVIOUSLY. That would be TOTALLY INSANE!!!

Lift and tug under these conditions?

An attack by rabid cougars - CERTAINLY preferable to a lift and tug under those conditions.

Why expose yourself to the danger of loosing control of the glider to determine something you already know?

Nah. Somebody with the cojones to handle launch conditions like those can CERTAINLY rely on his memory of the check he made in the relative calm behind the launch five minutes ago.

The pilot determined that he was hooked in before walking up to the launch point.

Yeah. Just like Bob Gillisse used to do before he figured out even better ways of getting around USHGA's deadly hook-in check requirement.

Out here, in reality, the launch process begins when after the pilot performs the hook in check and walks to the launch point.

Yep.

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=3355
Failure to hook in 6/29/12

Gregory Jones - 2012/06/30 03:51:41 UTC

I usually check again on launch, but also failed to do so. I was very lucky to come away from this incident with a few scrapes and bruises and no obvious damage to my glider. I honestly thought that I had my launch regiment dialed in and that I would never do this.

Jimmy, Gregory, Phill, George, Oscar, and the rest of the launch regiment.

Is USHPA's condition satisfied in the above example. Yes it is.

OF COURSE it is. But let's make it even better for the California launch regiment:

With each flight, demonstrates an assisted hook in check in the relative calm behind the launch before proceeding unassisted into the excessive and turbulent conditions to launch into a split second lull.

I expect you and Ann will come up with rebop and semantics to refute this.

Nah. We're both totally cool with this.

Conditions, not your dogma, determine when to launch.

With each flight, does whatever the fuck he feels like in the two or three hours prior to launch.

Why reinvent the wheel when we have a proven system that works and huge track record?

[miguel]

Humorous reply.

Definitely out of character.

The pilot is an advanced pilot and needs no wire crew. Most all of the locals here do not ever need wire crews. Even your friend Chris, whose abilities you doubt, does not need a wire crew. There are places around here that require wire crews. At one, they hold the glider down. All release at the same time and the glider shoots straight up. The place has not been flown in years.

The spectators have been around enough not to need to be tied down.

Again, there are situations where lift and tug is a detriment.

Is lift and tug a bad technique?
No, it is a good technique but is not the technique for all situations.

Your favorite video of Chris was taken during a morning speed run. There is a slight down to no wind during the speed runs.

If you come on a strong turbulent day, I will give you some cinder blocks to tie around your waist. Then you will not get blown away.

[Tad Eareckson]

Humorous reply.

Damn. I intended it to be really nasty.

Definitely out of character.

No, just misinterpreted.

The pilot is an advanced pilot and needs no wire crew.

Yeah. I was totally astounded by his standing-there-and-keeping-the-glider-level skills. NO WAY could a fifteen year old Kitty Hawk student on his first session handle something like that.

Most all of the locals here do not ever need wire crews.

- If those are considered extreme launch conditions I can see why not.

- And I'm absolutely positive that most all of the locals there do not ever need hook-in checks 'cause they've done hang checks in the relative calm behind the launch five minutes ago.

Even your friend Chris, whose abilities you doubt...

I have no doubt whatsoever in his "abilities" to launch, thermal, approach, land, or - most importantly - keep himself connected to his glider. (Certainly kicks the asses of Davis and a shitload of other top ranked dumb air jocks in that department.) But he doesn't know what a spreader bar is and if I see him at an aerotow operation he's gonna have bent pin releases and standard aerotow weak links on his shoulders. Those issues get him crossed off the competent pilots list.

...does not need a wire crew.

Likewise he doesn't "NEED" a parachute, helmet, wheels, shoes, or long pants. I've made zillions of launches with one or more people on my wires that I didn't NEED and I've gone on the wires of people who didn't NEED me. But it's a lot better to have somebody on a wire that you don't need than not have somebody on a wire that you DO need.

And I like having somebody out eight feet on a lever arm keeping my wing level so I don't hafta waste a lot of exertion doing it.

And I've had wire crew catch minor issues with my glider that I've missed and I've been on crews and caught minor and moderate issues that they've missed.

And there have been plenty of incidents in which wire crewmen have noticed dangling carabiners that of which the pilots were not aware. And it's pretty obvious to me that there's no foot launch site on the planet where the locals have their shit together so well on that issue that they can afford to dispense with extra pairs of eyes - ESPECIALLY...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mX2HNwVr9g
Hang Gliding Fail
andyh0p - 2011/04/24 - dead
03-0325 - 06-0511
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/13512258445_6b5a3662d0_o.png

http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/12931220073_1609b59b17_o.png
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52378864885_3b8ca2da8c_o.png

http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52378864870_2129572e3a_o.png
18-0919 - 21-1025

...fuckin' idiot Australia.

There are places around here that require wire crews. At one, they hold the glider down.

Yeah, you certainly wouldn't want anybody to ever let a glider float up high enough to start tensioning the suspension. That would put the wing up into the turbulent jet stream layer.

All release at the same time and the glider shoots straight up. The place has not been flown in years.

Our local names for that site are High Rock and McConnellsburg and launches like that are pretty common.

The spectators have been around enough not to need to be tied down.

Our local name for spectators is wire crew.

Again, there are situations where lift and tug is a detriment.

Really? I still haven't heard you describe one.

No, it is a good technique but is not the technique for all situations.

See above.

Your favorite video of Chris was taken during a morning speed run. There is a slight down to no wind during the speed runs.

Not...

Chris

That's the most breeze we've had yet.

Glenn

Yep. Straight in too. Yeah.

...on this one - although I fail to see the relevance.

You're talking to somebody who over the better part of a couple of decades:

- flew a lot of foot launching at a lot of sites - tow, dune, training hill, open knoll, slot, ramp, cliff, butte;

- worked as a dune instructor for a long season;

- launched in all kinds of conditions - downwind, zero, straight in and brain dead easy, cross, turbulent, howling, zero to seven man crew, safely, marginally, unsuccessfully;

- taught, coached, assisted, witnessed all of the above; and

- NEVER - once he had been advised of the technique while his career was still in double digits - ONCE launched without tightening the suspension no more than two seconds prior.

So don't waste your breath telling me - or Steve Kinsley, Judy McCarty, Allen Sparks, Brad Gryder, Eric Hinrichs, Steve Davy, or Rob Kells - that there are situations in which lift and tug is inappropriate and/or dangerous. And especially don't waste your breath telling me that that wimp McClure launch of Jimmy's is one of them.

And I'm getting real tired of watching and presenting videos of Jimmy clearly showing him doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to verify his connection for fifty-eight seconds before running into the air and being told that he's operating within the letter and intent of the USHGA regulation requiring a hook-in check JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH.

This is pretty much the same bullshit that Dr. Trisa Tilletti pulls on the weak link issue.
- He:
-- hides from the AT pilot population the fact that the FAA has expanded the 0.8 G minimum regulation to cover hang gliders
-- declares the standard aerotow weak link to be 260 pounds - twice the strength he'd get if he bench tested it
-- tells everyone bench testing has no validity because physics on the ground is totally different from physics in the air
- Everybody gets to keeping on crashing just the way they were before the nasty regulation went into effect and people found out about it.

JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH means AT LAUNCH POSITION and JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH because that prevents unhooked launches. Doing fucking hang checks in the relative calm behind the launch five minutes ago CAUSES THEM.

[miguel]

Simply amazing how you can devine conditions at McClure, never having been there, from grainy videos.

The CIA is in dire need of your talents.

[Tad Eareckson]

I have fifty-five launch sites in my log and not one of them had a special air mixture that made it any different from another - and I get really tired of hearing from glider jockeys about how unique theirs are. And I notice that not even USHGA has site specific AWCL signoffs.

I can see ribbons on both sides of and below launch, see and hear fairly steady straight in wind, and see somebody standing on launch having no problems keeping his glider under control in nothing more than a bit of mild mechanical turbulence with no need to recruit for assistance either of the two people we know are standing there.

When Jimmy launches he moves ahead fast and smoothly without a lot of climb.

And I know what it's like to come off a dune, ramp, or butte and go straight up with the bar mostly stuffed to keep from going backwards. And I also know what it's like to get the shit kicked out of me by turbulence and be turned around, dumped, and damn near killed by a thermal blast.

This ain't rocket science, there's absolutely nothing stopping ANYONE in those circumstances from letting his glider float up to the stops other than his determination not to, and don't try to snow me.

And - for what it's worth - I have some old USHGA cards that say I know what I'm talking about.

P.S. I was launching and flying in a lot stronger air than Jimmy is on my fifth session as a Kitty Hawk student.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=3638
FTHI

NMERider - 2012/11/14 05:32:38 UTC

Hey Steve D,

Who are you and what inspired this thread?

Cheers,
JD

Steve D - 2012/11/14 08:25:12 UTC

Kunio's Kids:

Mark Johnson - 2008/08/31
Phoenix

As Mark Knight and I jumped in my truck to drive to the trail head, I could hear Kunio's kids crying, my heart sank even more, I felt sick.

Bille's Mother:

Bille Floyd - 2010/05/26

After hitting the ground I looked down at where my feet should be and knew it was Bad - then I looked back at my Mom and sighed. I wasn't going to be taking care of her any more.

Bill's Family and Friends:

Holly Korzilius - 2005/10/01

I don't know what else to say. I'm sitting here weeping for Bill. He was such a wonderful guy. So full of life and fun loving.

Steve Davy

Hey Jonathan...

What the hell difference does it make WHO Steve D is? Do you accept or reject messages based upon who's saying them?

Why do you need to ASK what the purpose of the thread is? Is it because it's been been four and a half months since you've had a local unhooked launch crash and seven and a half months since somebody fell a thousand feet from a glider a thousand miles to the north?

When people get mangled and killed falling from their gliders we always have these discussions, the people who know what they're talking about get almost totally ignored, the assholes working as instructors keep teaching people to do hang checks and assume that they're hooked in, and the senior assholes coaching at the Hang Three sites keep reinforcing that bullshit.

But - whether or not they do much good - it's a helluva lot better to get these discussions or monologues going in the months before somebody buys it rather than in the days afterwards.

[miguel]

Damn. I intended it to be really nasty.

I re-read it again.

funny with a touch of weak sauce.

Are you feeling under the weather?

I have fifty-five launch sites in my log and not one of them had a special air mixture that made it any different from another - and I get really tired of hearing from glider jockeys about how unique theirs are. And I notice that not even USHGA has site specific AWCL signoffs.

I can see ribbons on both sides of and below launch, see and hear fairly steady straight in wind, and see somebody standing on launch having no problems keeping his glider under control in nothing more than a bit of mild mechanical turbulence with no need to recruit for assistance either of the two people we know are standing there.

Damn dude, I am a'scared of you!



I think your crystal ball needs a tune up and an update.

You cannot see the conditions in front of the launch. You will need to pay for the deluxe upgrade no. dlx56b9d1 in order to see and comment on conditions in front of the launch.

Contact me with $147.94 and I will hook you up.

I see the pilot making constant corrections to keep the glider under control.

The launch sits in the back of a bowl. It is somewhat sheltered from the wind in certain conditions. The prevailing can be crossed and it will still appear straight according to the flags. It will be washing machine time in front of launch. Again, one must wait for a lull out front to launch.

When Jimmy launches he moves ahead "fast and smoothly" without a lot of climb.

Slight adjustment for you.

First of all, when you make up dismissive names for people, it diminishes your credibility. The name was on the original video.

Yep, he has launched into a hole and will slow down and shoot up once he hits the real air.
That is called launching into a lull.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rw6LrJuJuM


Check the launch of the pilot above. Is he moving "fast and smoothly"?
Nope, he pops up and makes forward progress SLOWLY. See anyone doing lift and tug on the actual launch?

Think it might add some un-needed excitement?

And I know what it's like to come off a dune, ramp, or butte and go straight up with the bar mostly stuffed to keep from going backwards. And I also know what it's like to get the shit kicked out of me by turbulence and be turned around, dumped, and damn near killed by a thermal blast.

This ain't rocket science, there's absolutely nothing stopping ANYONE in those circumstances from letting his glider float up to the stops other than his determination not to, and don't try to snow me.

And - for what it's worth - I've got some old USHGA cards that say I know what I'm talking about.

P.S. I was launching and flying in a lot stronger air than Jimmy is on my fifth session as a Kitty Hawk student.

http://airportjournals.com/wp-content/uploads/0312004_2.jpg

http://live.staticflickr.com/1568/26222318742_9b2f02beb3_o.jpg

Golly gee Chuck, I'm impressed. You da man!

[Tad Eareckson]

Are you feeling under the weather?

Chronically. Probably terminally.

You cannot see the conditions in front of the launch.

Nope. The camera's not pointed out in front of launch. But whatever they are I've seen them on plenty of my own launches.

I see the pilot making constant corrections to keep the glider under control.

So do I - just like I've seen first day students doing the same thing with the same effectiveness in the same conditions.

The launch sits in the back of a bowl. It is somewhat sheltered from the wind in certain conditions. The prevailing can be crossed and it will still appear straight according to the flags. It will be washing machine time in front of launch. Again, one must wait for a lull out front to launch.

1. A lull, of course, so short that if one took a second to tighten his suspension before committing his life wouldn't be worth a plugged nickel.

2. And, of course, standing on launch with suspension held tight would anger the gods and invite unimaginable mayhem.

3. Sounds a lot like the slot at Woodstock where I did most of my mountain flying - all of it preceded by a tightening of my suspension no more than two seconds prior to launch.

First of all, when you make up dismissive names for people, it diminishes your credibility.

0:29 - Somebody

Is that Jimmy?

0:32 - Glenn

Yeah, prob'ly.

0:34 - Somebody

Oh yeah.

And since when did "Jimmy" become a dismissive name? (Didn't somebody named Jimmy lead a bomber raid on Tokyo in 1942?)

That is called launching into a lull.

And had he not done that within the precise two second window he'd almost certainly found himself going backwards with the bar to his knees and probably upside down.

Check the launch of the pilot above.

There are two pilots above.

See anyone doing lift and tug on the actual launch?

1. I see two gliders launching with tight suspension.

2. I see zero reason for the second glider to not do a lift and tug at 3:33 - one second prior to his right foot moving. (I'm guessing his memory's a lot better than mine.)

Think it might add some un-needed excitement?

No. I think it has a lot of potential for subtracting some unneeded and unwanted excitement. (Tad Hurst (no relation) comes to mind.)

Golly gee Chuck, I'm impressed.

Why? I haven't described doing anything that's necessarily beyond the capabilities of a solid Hang 2.0.

You da man!

I must be. I seem to be one of no more than a dozen pilots on the planet to have preceded more than half a dozen flights with lifts and tugs and lived to tell about them.

[miguel]

The pilot's name is not Jimmy. Jimmy was probably around in the launch area. The pilot's name was in the title or description of the video.

The pilot is a long time H4 and was making the corrections you have to make when it is turbulent on launch. The high flag does not indicate what the wing is experiencing. Neither does the low flag. The air that the wing is experiencing is NOT laminar.

[Tad Eareckson]

Jimmy was probably around in the launch area.

Why would someone use such a dismissive name for a pilot? The guy must be a real asshole. (Probably verifies that he's hooked in just prior to launch, possibly even uses wire crew and lands on wheels.)

The pilot is a long time H4...

So am I. And I can't remember whether or not I'm hooked, hold my glider level, prevent myself from being flipped, resist getting locked out, or time my flare in light switchy air any better than a very low time H2.

The high flag does not indicate what the wing is experiencing...

I know. I can see what the wing is experiencing. It doesn't cause me any more feeling of dread than it does any of the three people I know are present in the immediate vicinity and there's nothing that precludes its pilot from tensioning the suspension at pretty much any point he might choose.

These two launches:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEhuBU64t18


assisted, in light laminar air, DO cause me feelings of dread - especially the first one.

If you wanna start making a case that a lift and tug would spell almost certain death on a particular launch then don't use as an example one in which there's a bored looking flyer standing around a few yards from the glider with a bottle in his hand.