Near to completion of this hatchet job I discovered I'd already chewed the post up pretty good on The Bob Show a couple of Julys ago and said a lot of the same things but...
- The work was mostly done.
- This one REALLY pisses me off.
- Maybe a couple of new thoughts and a fair bit more viciousness.
- Can't hurt much to have it over here too.
Sooo...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13359
Today was a bad day!
Rob McKenzie - 2009/08/26 17:26:12 UTC
San Bernardino
I hesitate to even post. I have no intention to sway anyone to do what I do but will post only under the premise of FWIW.
I believe that if I fly long enough, numbers lead to an eventual failure to hook in. I'm human.
I do a hang check before nearly every flight. I do it without needing a nose or keel assist as I balance my weight over the basetube. I'm more likely to do a hang check if I don't need to trouble others for help. I probably miss the hang check about 1 in 1000 flights. I feel leg loops and look for height above basetube and twisting in lines during the hang check.
I have twice in the last 10,000 or so flights actually laid on the ground unhooked while doing my self hang check. So numbers indicate about 1 in 5000 chance of forgetting to hook in.
Multiply rate of failure to hook in by failure to hang check and I have perhaps a 1 in 5 million chance of launching unhooked. With 500 flights a year I have therefore about 1 failed hookin launch every 50,000 years. But it could be my next launch attempt.
I like variety. Sometimes AUSSIE and sometimes not. It helps to bring the thought process alive. Routine leads to boredom which leads to reactive thinking which IMO is a poor facsimile of true thinking.
I hesitate to even post.
And you hesitate even more to engage in any actual discussions - including/especially the ones that occur right after another near miss or destroyed life.
I have no intention to sway anyone to do what I do...
1. Flagrantly violate the letter and stated intent of the USHGA regulation designed to protect against unhooked launches.
2. That's OK, you've got all your thousands of students you can sway to flagrantly violate the letter and stated intent of the USHGA regulation designed to protect against unhooked launches.
3. So what you're saying is that you've got a system that's so superior to everything else - including what's on the books - that you're better off omitting the procedure that's on the books.
- So why aren't you lobbying USHGA to get it on the books?
- But you don't really give enough of a flying fuck about the lives of people other than your own students - including those of tandem passengers like Eleni Zeri, Lenami Godinez-Avila, and Rooney's unnamed surviving victim - to sway anyone to what you do.
4. Well, *I* give enough of a flying fuck about the lives of people I've never met and never will...
Helen McKerral - 2010/01/28 04:15:06 UTC
Hiya Tad,
I've been doing the lift and tug for some months now, after our discussion. It's good and it works.
...and...
Mark Johnson - 2008/08/31 17:22
As Mark Knight and I jumped in my truck to drive to the trail head, I could hear Kunio's kids crying, my heart sank even more, I felt sick.
...their kids to have the intention to sway them to do what I do - asshole.
...but will post only under the premise of FWIW.
It's worth shit. It's worth a lot of unhooked launches, a good many injuries, and an instant death every now and then.
I believe that if I fly long enough, numbers lead to an eventual failure to hook in. I'm human.
Now where have I heard something like that from some other useless douchebag of an instructor who lacks the brains and balls to engage and refuses to adhere to the JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH regulation?
Oh yeah...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26996
Critique my radial ramp launch
Tom Galvin - 2012/08/29 16:43:06 UTC
We are human, and can not do "always". I use the Aussie method, a self hang check, then a second party hang check, a hook-in check, and Dave Hopkin's rule of three. 3 mistakes between when the glider comes off the rack to launch, then it's time to put the glider away, since I am not focused on what I am doing.
Even with all that, I know that one day, I could still launch unhooked. I am human. I can only mitigate the risks, not eliminate them.
Seems like you get a lot of that sort of thing from the dregs who refuse to make any effort whatsoever to comply with the USHGA regulation.
I do a hang check before nearly every flight.
Lemme read the entire regulation to you:
With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
Notice that it DOESN'T say:
Do a hang check before nearly every flight.
I do it without needing a nose or keel assist as I balance my weight over the basetube.
And I preflight my connection while I'm hopping on one foot and flapping my arms like a chicken.
I'm more likely to do a hang check if I don't need to trouble others for help.
Great, Rob.
1. What does that tell you about your hook-in security that a walk-through check doesn't - easier, faster, better?
2. The less hassle, time, effort a check takes and the more critical and effective it is the more likely I am to do or repeat it. I'm guessing you're the precise opposite?
3. From gold to shit my ranking would be:
- lift and tug
- walk-through
- assisted hang check
- unassisted hang check
4. Do you also launch in dangerous gusty conditions without a crew because you're adverse to troubling others for help?
5. I'm guessing that since you're so good about not troubling others for help you're a bit resentful of others asking you for help.
6. And that kinda ties in with the fact that you haven't said a single goddam thing about others being on the lookout for people with dangling carabiners. Every man for himself.
I probably miss the hang check about 1 in 1000 flights.
I've got over sixteen hundred foot launches, use lift and tug to comply with USHGA regulations and keep myself alive, never came close to missing one, and - because I always have a HUGE fear of launching unhooked - have absolutely NO fear of missing one.
Rob Kells also used lift and tug and, at the end of 2005, had racked up about eight thousand launches without report of a miss.
I've never heard of a lift and tugger missing - and neither have YOU.
So fuck your 99.9 percent record. It totally sucks. Commercial aviation wouldn't wouldn't tolerate an efficiency record like that for a comparably critical check. ("Yeah, about once every thousand landings I forget to put the gear down.") Hell, even the Aussie Methodist morons have better batting averages than you do with respect to having their shit together at launch.
Thank you so very much for confirming that a hang check can NEVER become an automatic / muscle memory component of a launch sequence - the way lift and tug does.
I feel leg loops...
So do I - with a lot less effort, a lot closer to launch, and combined with my check that the carabiner's engaged.
...and look for height above basetube and twisting in lines during the hang check.
1. Fuck height above basetube and twisting in lines. Neither of those is a critical issue. At showtime they are - in fact - deadly distractions.
2. Aside from new glider harness combos... How many times have you checked your clearance and discovered it to be something other than what you expected?
I have twice in the last 10,000 or so flights actually laid on the ground unhooked while doing my self hang check.
You couldn't have figured out that you weren't hooked in without doing an idiot fucking hang check? A walk-through wouldn't work? Or do you feel you need the get your harness dusty as punishment for your oversight?
So numbers indicate about 1 in 5000 chance of forgetting to hook in.
YOUR numbers. Sample size of ONE.
And that ONE is a professional operating in overwhelmingly routine environments, situations, patterns. Pull you out of your comfort zone and subject you to some of the stresses that real world recreational pilots face - long layoffs, unfamiliarity with equipment, new environments, competition pressures - your numbers are going DOWN.
And forgetting to hook in ain't our only problem. Scores of people have remembered that they hooked in but forgotten that they subsequently unhooked.
Multiply rate of failure to hook in by failure to hang check and I have perhaps a 1 in 5 million chance of launching unhooked.
1. Well great then, Rob. You can therefore continue teaching all of your students to do hang checks every time at the back of the ramp and telling them that that approach will limit their chances of launching unhooked to one in five million.
2. But that's a pile of total crap 'cause anybody who's been in this sport for more than a week or two personally knows a shitload of flyers - none of them with flights numbering in the millions - who've been taught and used that approach and...
http://vimeo.com/16572582
password - red
2-112
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7600/28811055456_925c8abb66_o.png
...launched unhooked.
3. Your bullshit arithmetic doesn't take into account that the issues that precipitate a failure to hook in or re hook in are HIGHLY likely to be EXACTLY the same ones that precipitate a failure to hang check or re hang check. And if you ever bothered to look into the factors that precede just about all of these disasters you'd bloody well know that.
4. So go fuck yourself.
With 500 flights a year I have therefore about 1 failed hookin launch every 50,000 years.
Ya know how I do the math? I figure I have a ONE HUNDRED PERCENT chance of launching unhooked five seconds from now - not next weekend or twenty-five or fifty thousand years from now. So I NEVER forget to do my little check two seconds before I run off the ramp.
But it could be my next launch attempt.
I SO hope it gets recorded on video. That'll help me undo a tiny percentage of the damage you've done.
I like variety.
Me too, Rob.
Sometimes AUSSIE and sometimes not.
Sometimes I...
- fully engage the hang strap with the carabiner and sometimes I just catch the nose on the webbing and don't listen for the click before I go up for a few passes.
- put the starboard downtube/basetube junction pin in before moving to the ramp and sometimes have the control frame fall apart on me five yards short.
- maintain good speed until I'm safely away from the slope and sometimes I end up spending the night in the hospital and have a lot of trouble walking for a couple of weeks.
- listen to the guy on my left wing telling me he's got down and sometimes I spin back into the dune and trash a downtube.
- check the ribbons to make sure it hasn't just gone katabatic and sometimes I just assume that I'll be OK 'cause the three gliders who went off just before me were.
- clear my turns and sometimes I just assume that John's still way the hell over there and we'll both be fine.
It helps to bring the thought process alive.
It sure does, Rob. And there's nothing that helps bring the thought process alive quite like...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18876
Hang glider Crash
Allen Sparks - 2010/09/07 01:03:18 UTC
I have launched unhooked and experienced the horror of hanging by my fingers over jagged rocks...
...skipping the hook-in check and experiencing the horror of hanging by your fingers over jagged rocks. Unfortunately, for a lot of people at that point it's a bit too late to do any good.
So tell me sumpin' Rob... If you like variety so fuckin' much how come your procedures NEVER vary to include the one Rob Kells uses? Well... I guess you can't go TOTALLY nuts with this variety thing. There must be limits to everything - otherwise we're reduced to total anarchy.
Routine leads to boredom which leads to reactive thinking which IMO is a poor facsimile of true thinking.
1. Fuck your opinion.
2. Name ONE THING in aviation that's dependent upon TRUE THINKING.
3. If TRUE THINKING were a viable component of this sport explain to me why hang gliders - including yours - have backup loops.
4. Also explain to me standup landings, bent pin releases, standard aerotow weak links, Bobby Bailey's fucking genius when it comes to this shit, Jim Rooney's keen intellect, and how lift and tug increases the probability of an unhooked launch by...
http://www.rmhpa.org/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4258
HG accident in Vancouver
Tom Galvin - 2012/10/31 22:17:21 UTC
I teach hook-in checks. I don't teach lift and tug, as it gives a false sense of security.
...giving the pilot a false sense of security.
5. Do you advise students obviously incapable of true thinking - your...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25015
Zippy pounds in
Davis Straub - 2011/09/02 18:37:09 UTC
Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18695
How could this accident happen?
Davis Straub - 2010/01/28 06:10:17 UTC
I have tried to launch unhooked on aerotow and scooter tow.
...Davis Straub...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links
Kinsley Sykes - 2012/08/17 20:29:21 UTC
Zack - I choose not to get on the Tad part 2 merry-go-round. But please enjoy yourself.
...Kinsley Sykes types - not to pursue this sport because they're at disproportionate levels of risk?
6. Doesn't it get terribly boring for you to always check that your wings are level, your pitch is properly set, the ribbons are straight up the slope, and the traffic is clear before EVERY launch? Wouldn't it be a good idea to launch with a low wing, a high nose, the ribbons blowing sideways, and somebody coming in from the left and scraping the slope so that you break up the monotony, free yourself from the cycle of reactive thinking, and get some TRUE THINKING going on?
7. How much TRUE THINKING did you have to do before you concluded that lift and tug is so dangerous that you must never vary your routine enough to include it?
8. So what are you TRULY THINKING about in the time between your hang check and your run off the ramp? What profound discoveries have you made that are beyond the grasp of those of us who are always wasting our time with thoughts like:
- Holy shit it's a long way down to those rocks!
- Don't fuck this up Tad. Remember the time you didn't fully engage the carabiner?
- I wonder if I fully engaged the carabiner this time.
- Did you get your leg loops?
- Are you you SURE you got your leg loops?
- Better lift and tug again.
- You just lifted and tugged five seconds ago, you moron!
- Yeah, I know I'm a moron. That's why I'm gonna lift and tug again.
- OK, good cycle, lift and tug, trim, GO!
- Gawd I hope I'm hooked in!
So what are you thinking Rob?
- Wow! If I increase the camber a little bit on my midspan battens I can squeeze another half a glide point out of this sucker!!!
- What with the altered rain, temperature, and prevailing wind patterns in North Africa, if I can get to Algeria sometime within the next three weeks I should be able to add seventy-five miles to the world XC record in my sleep!!!
Why don't you write a book some day on all of the revelations you've had during your decades of ramp time? There's just gotta be Nobel in it for you.
9. You're totally full of shit, Rob.
- In REAL aviation - and even in hang gliding to some extent - safety is optimized by standardized and rigorously adhered to procedures: engineering, testing, certification, maintenance, checklists, preflight, taxiing, takeoff clearance, air traffic control, approach patterns... As anybody who's ever stuffed battens into a high performance wing can tell you, some of this is tedious. Tough shit.
- Boredom has NEVER ONCE been a factor in a foot launch hang gliding takeoff incident. Cite a survivor reporting that it was.
- HUGE factors in foot launch hang gliding takeoff incidents - including failure to hook in:
-- fear
-- comfort
-- complacency
-- rushes
-- delays
-- lack of wire crew
-- wire crew
-- fatigue
-- distraction
-- interruption
-- false memories
-- incomplete memories
-- equipment malfunctions
-- unfamiliar equipment
-- unfamiliar environments
-- marginal conditions
-- stellar conditions
I'd say if you had to generalize that boredom would be pretty much of the opposite of the factors which contribute to unhooked launches.
- Those few of us in this sport who actually ARE capable of TRUE THINKING do it BEFORE we get on the ramp. 'Cause we all realize that ramp is a REALLY BAD place to be THINKING too deeply and a REALLY GOOD place to be into...
Rob Kells - 2005/12
Always lift the glider vertically and feel the tug on the leg straps when the harness mains go tight, just before you start your launch run. I always use this test.
Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18876
Hang glider Crash
Helen McKerral - 2010/09/07 00:16:04 UTC
I've adopted the lift and tug but I'm an old dog learning a new trick and I still forget to do it some of the time. However, although I've found that it's very hard to remember to do if you try to remember 'L&T', if you change your mindset to, "I'm not hooked in", it's easier to recall. It would be easier if I had learned it from the start, so it was a physical muscle memory instilled from my first days on the training hill, just like the grapevine grip changing to bottle.
...reptilian brain fear/response stuff. And I haven't heard you say a single goddam thing about FEAR/RESPONSE 'cause you're TOTALLY VACANT in that department.
And Bob, in case I haven't said it lately...
http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=674
Nate's minor accident at Packsaddle
Bob Kuczewski - 2011/07/10 16:17:55 UTC
I'm sorry Tad, but Rob McKenzie is one of the top instructors that I've met. He's been my hang gliding instructor and paragliding instructor (signing off my P3 rating). Rob is pointing out an important aspect of the problem when he mentions that routine leads to boredom. That's part of the human element that you want to ignore by reasserting the regulation. If the regulation were so bulletproof, then why doesn't it work 100% of the time? The answer is the human element.
But my main point here is that Rob McKenzie is one of the best instructors in the country. We need more instructors like Rob McKenzie. If he flunks in your world, then that shows a big problem with your world.
You're totally full of shit too.
