Sorry Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney. I didn't quite follow that analysis of Antoine's take on the Zack Marzec negligent homicide. Could you go back over your take and dumb it down a bit for the benefit of some of us slower non professional types?
Davis Straub - 2003/03/04 02:07:45 UTC
Welcome to, and policies of, the Oz Report discussion group
The Oz Report forum is is not a campfire. It is not a place to hang out with your bud and have a beer while slurring your words. It is a serious forum for pilots who wish to write cogently and engage the intellect of others.
Unless:
- you're sucking Davis's dick several times a week; and
- your target is Tad or a Tad Clone.
It is not for everyone, and not everyone has something useful to contribute.
For the new pilots who come here in your blazing ignorance (and your burning desire for a hint of acceptance), I say, humility is a fine cloak for your obsessive egos. Lurk, listen, read (past issues - using the search function in the Oz Report itself and the other (non Google) search function in the forum), and, if you must, ask questions, without explaining to us first how you know everything already.
I value my reader's time. One way I do this is to discourage readers with nothing useful to contribute from contributing it on the forum. Please, don't post there unless you really have a contribution to make to your fellow pilots. I realize that the forum structure makes it easy to ignore others (unlike the mailing list format), but still, use good judgment.
If you can't, please take those low quality comments elsewhere where I'm sure that they will find a ready audience among those with too much time on their hands.
You may be able to get away with a comment like that with some of the Marc Fink caliber Davis Show scum but I'm pretty sure you've done some irreparable damage to yourself amongst the five or so percent of Davis Show readers capable of actual thought processes.
I think there's a fair chance that your credibility may have finally started descending into the toilet where it's belonged since the first time you opened your mouth on a hang gliding issue.
P.S. So Davis, what are you gonna do about this one? Enforce your imaginary policy or ignore it?
You always know you're doing a good job when you're getting attacked by these useless piece of shit blights on the gene pool, Antoine.
I think it would be a good tactical move at this point totally ignore them - treat them as the irrelevant nonentities they are now quickly becoming and just address the posts of the few actual humans Davis still tolerates in his cult.
P.S. The High Priests of the Cult of 130 Pound Greenspot are TOTALLY FUCKED at this point. They've painted themselves into corners and ANYTHING they say will blow up in their faces IMMEDIATELY.
All they have left in the way of strategies are to try to derail the conversation - the way Davis is doing - and address anybody who says anything hinting at rational thought with "Get fucked." These are desperate and pathetic efforts and I think even the walnut brained reader typical of hang gliding will see right through them and what's going on.
Keep up the good work. I think we're finally seeing the beginning of the disintegration of Hewett Theory hang glider towing.
If Rooney addresses you or a point you make ignore him. Don't acknowledge his presence or existence. Treat him as being beneath contempt - which he is and as he deserves.
I'm afraid I'm not. Unfortunately the only way you can get people's attention and a rational discussion going in this sport is to kill somebody popular with ratings, skills, and experience coming out of his ass - spectacularly and unambiguously.
This guy has done thousands of times more for the sport by killing himself than he could ever have dreamed of instructing and making cute videos.
I saw some of Zak videos and he seemed like the real deal, RIP.
Yeah. Almost all of these guys SEEM like the real deal - but they're not. Zack was a stupid little boy playing with firearms he didn't understand without having bothered to have read the owner's manual.
I hope that the discussion about safety and towing techniques that his untimely death has provoked may have some positive effect.
We were TRYING to have this discussion - AGAIN - at the end of last summer.
Back on Page 18 now with 73 posts and 5744 hits. Everything was carefully, excellently, fully explained, in the course of it there was an incident in which an understrength BHPA weak link blew and cost somebody a chopper ride, it was clear who the people who knew what they were talking about and the assholes were, and there was a link to this forum (in blatant violation of The Jack Show Mission Statement).
So where the fuck were YOU?
I have found particularly interesting the discussion about the correct body position relative to the control bar when in the doll and after leaving it.
Yeah, let's talk about dolly launching so we can get a really good understanding of what was going on with Zack's glider when it was smacking into a monster thermal at 150 feet.
I've been surprised by many taking about it in terms of having or not the right speed. In this case doesn't the speed depend exclusively on the tug speed?
No, you obviously don't understand this issue. When the glider's on the cart and in the period for a bit after it's lifted off it can go CONSIDERABLY faster than the tug. It can hit Mach 5 no problem whatsoever.
Something to note about leaving carts....
There is a drastic difference when being pulled by a 582 or a 914/912.
People have a tendency to leave the cart too soon when behind a 582. With the big tugs however, the problem is the opposite. This is especially obvious when you take someone that tows behind 582s and put them behind a 914.
It doesn't sound like a problem at first... more speed is good right? As with all things, yes but .... "to a point". See what happens behind a 914 if you use 582 technique is this....
You accelerate very rapidly of course and gain a lot of speed. I call it leaving the cart at Mach 5. No problem yet (well, there's a small one, but we'll get to that). As you leave the cart, the tug is already a good bit above you, so you ease off the bar pressure (you've got a ton at this point) and this is just about the same time you slam into the prop wash. Your weaklink lets go.
After a couple weaklink breaks in this manner, you start to wonder if Tad's right about these "weak" weaklinks. Nevermind that it's a technique problem not an equipment problem. Nevermind that using a stronglink greatly increases the chances that you will hurt yourself in a very bad way.
See, weaklinks don't care about speed. They care about load. Going Mach5 and easing off the pitch, even a little bit, greatly increases your load... remember that whole bit about windspeed being an exponential factor?
So there you are with in a highly loaded situation, and then you shockload the system by hitting the propwash. Not good.
Your weaklink is doing exactly what it should do.
Behind a 914, set the cart correctly, resist getting "pulled through" the bar by the tow force, and allow the glider to simply fly out of the cart. Don't pull in. Don't lock yourself to the cart. In short, don't use 582 technique. Consult an instructor (that's familiar with 914s) for a more detailed explanation than this.
Behind a 582, the problem is as stated before... people get antsy to get out of the cart. You do roll till you're practically lift the cart. It's a very different world.
Here's an excellent example of a glider foolishly/ridiculously exceeding the tug's speed and having his Rooney Link kick in to save him from having his wings torn off:
You just CAN'T allow yourself to fly faster than the tug. I just can't emphasize that point too much.
It seems to me that you need to have the right AOA (and position your body to achieve such AOA) to position yourself in the right place relative to the tug. I haven't aerotowed in a while but I was told that this position was slightly above the tug. So what are the more accepted procedures now?
EXACTLY THE SAME AS THEY WERE TWO MINUTES BEFORE ZACK TUMBLED.
Tommy.
First, I sent Steve a bunch of info offline. Hopefully it clears things up a bit for him.
Unfortunately, he's stumbled onto some of Tad's old rantings and got suckered in. So most of this was just the same old story of debunking Tad's lunacy... again .
See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.
Sure "there's always room for improvement", but you have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here.
There isn't going to be some "oh gee, why didn't I think of that?" moment. The obvious answers have already been explored... at length.
Anyway...
Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.
It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.
When you have a proven system that works you don't mess with it. You just accept that every once in a while you're gonna have a freak accident and kill somebody that you won't be able to write off as an incompetent asshole.
Is there any way to minimize the chances of a broken link low with a high AOA?
I got nuthin'. If anybody else has any ideas feel free to chirp in.
Hey! Wait a minute!
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
Unlike Spectra, polypro has some stretch to it under load--and can stretch up to 20% before breaking. It acts like a shock absorber to soften impact loads, which helps to prevent damage to the structure and hardware of the tow plane and sailplane and helps to avoid unnecessary weak link breaks.
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
A Spectra bridle has almost no stretch, so sharp, impact loads are transferred directly to the weak link, while a polypro bridle has a reasonable amount off stretch and can act as a shock absorber and reduce the intensity of the impact load.
Without shock absorption, a Spectra bridle acts somewhat like an impact wrench on the weak link.
Polypro towlines and bridles!!! Why didn't I think of that sooner! If ONLY we had had Zack up on the end of a giant rubber band this tragedy could've been EASILY avoided.
Really surprising, as a matter of fact...
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
Russell Brown, a founder of Quest Air in Florida and a well-known Dragonfly tug pilot, is also a sailplane pilot, tug pilot, and A&P mechanic for a large commercial sailplane towing operation in Florida. He told us that, like us, he has never seen a sailplane weak link break, either. Russell owned the first 914-powered Dragonfly ever made--he helped us build the second one, which we still fly. He is the one who, many years ago, showed us the method for making a WT weak link and suggested we use polypropylene rather than Spectra for hang glider V-bridles.
...that Paul didn't mention that in his excellent report. Probably so grief stricken that it slipped his mind.
Well, I'm sure they're getting their act together together now and replacing all that nasty impact wrench Spectra...
...with some nice Rooney Link friendly polypro. (A bit of a shame though that Russell only shared that wisdom with Trisa and let Zack slip through the cracks. Oh well, shit happens.)
I would assume that during competition most tows are done in very challenging conditions and they may have figured it out a way to minimize these problems.
Oh! Now that you mention it, here's another thought:
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).
But then you'd hafta walk up to the tug to tell the pilot you're doing that every flight so that's probably not a viable solution for recreational flying.
Does Aero towing (when using dolls)...
You should probably leave Ken and Barbie at home so you can focus on the flying a little better.
...practices are similar everywhere ?
Oh yeah. The Flight Park Mafia has made pretty sure of that.
If not, what are the tradeoffs of one method vs another?
In Flight Park Mafia towing you use insane "theory" and the shittiest equipment imaginable and already have a couple dozen extra ways to get killed built into the system before the cart starts rolling.
If, however...
Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC
Zack figured it out.
Well actually he didn't. But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...
...you go the tow park that Tad runs then he can minimize a lot of issues and TOTALLY ELIMINATE a lot of other ones - like the stupid shit that killed Zack with the folks who actually know what they're talking about nine days ago.
Geoffrey Chaney - 2013/02/11 12:20:37 UTC
New Port Richey, Florida
This tragic accident has givin me some pause to think about the dangers of areo towing.
Why?
Geoffrey Chaney - 91358 - H2 - 2012/03/14 - Jon Thompson - AT 360
Didn't the excellent instructional program you went through at Quest very thoroughly cover all the bases?
As a new H2 I am reluctant to go into much detail at this time, but I do believe there is something to be learned from every aviation accident.
Sorry...
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
Bullshit. The truth is the polar opposite - ESPECIALLY on this one. If there's anything to be learned from any of these fuckups it's only because your instruction and instructors totally sucked.
I am formulating some new rules for myself wich I will apply to launches in similar conditions and have to do with early release from the tow at low altitudes.
- Haven't you read:
-- the USHPA AT SOPs and Guidelines?
-- the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden?
-- Hang Gliding For Beginner Pilots, the Official Flight Training Manual of the USHGA?
-- Dr. Trisa Tilletti's Higher Education series of AT articles in the magazine?
-- Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's extensive posts on weak links, releases, and other AT issues?
- Just how well are you equipped to be able to execute an early release?
- Zack Marzec HAD an early release. That's what got him killed.
- So how well are you - and the asshole on the Dragonfly - equipped to protect against an early release?
I will post my thoughts for feedback from more advanced pilots when time allows...
Given the levels of experience involved in every aspect of the 2013/02/02 Quest clusterfuck that just killed Zack what makes you think you wanna be listening to feedback from more ADVANCED pilots? How could a miserable little Hang Two such as yourself do any worse?
Welcome to towing.
We've been doing this a long time and are quite familiar and comfortable with our processes.
What about stronger weaklinks and hand free releases?
Nothing?
Neither of which, I must remind you, have long track records.
If you didn't know, English isn't Deltaman's first language.
Which probably worked a lot to his advantage, in that it made it a lot harder for him to get brainwashed by all the crap that comes out of the US, Canada, the UK, Australia, and New Zealand.
Yeah. Just like the unhooked launch issue. Your options are:
- always do a hang check and always assume you're hooked in on launch
- never get in a harness unless it's connected to a glider and always assume you're hooked in on launch
And from this we can conclude that the obvious key element in preventing unhooked launches is to always assume you're hooked in on launch - since that's the element common to both.
But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...
Listening to the folks who actually know what they are talking about...
Wallaby Ranch - 2013/02/11
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots
Welcome to Wallaby Ranch, the first and largest Aerotow Hang Gliding Flight Park in the World! We're the aerotowing (or "AT") professionals; no-one knows AT like we do; it's all we do, and we do it everyday, year-round.
...and are more than happy to tell you they do. MUCH less mind numbing. And...
- If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.
- Remember: it is almost impossible to stall under aerotow. The induced thrust vector makes the glider trim at a higher attitude. It is OK to push way out; you will climb, not stall.
...so much more comforting and reassuring. Why would anyone wanna listen to anyone who tells them that hang glider towing is inherently dangerous and that making it safe requires solid equipment and a solid foundation in...
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 06:04:23 UTC
As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in reality... but does it work in theory?"
Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot
...theory?
Most of the folks who have been towing for decades have worked this stuff out.
By towing HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of tows of gliders of all weights and descriptions on 130 pound Greenspot, calling it whatever breaking strength was most convenient to them, crashing gliders left and right, establishing a HUGE track record, and only deviating from the "norm" when they were physically incapable of...
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).
...getting anything airborne.
The reason for the vehemence of the response is they pile on to any AT accident, with no knowledge of the cause...
Yesterday was a light and variable day with expected good lift. Zach was the second tow of the afternoon. We launched to the south into a nice straight in wind. A few seconds into the tow I hit strong lift.
Zach hit it and went high and to the right. The weak link broke at around 150 feet or so and Zach stalled and dropped a wing or did a wingover, I couldn't tell. The glider tumbled too low for a deployment.
Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC
When the lift/turbulence was encountered, the weak link on the tow line broke as the nose of the glider pitched up quickly to a very high angle of attack. Apparently, the glider stalled or possibly did a short tail slide and then stalled and then nosed down and tumbled. Eye witnesses said the glider tumbled twice and then struck the ground with the base tube low.
...with NO knowledge of the cause. Do continue...
...and trot out the, if only he had a strong weaklink, nothing would have happened.
You're right. As it was the weak link he was using was WAY too strong. If it had been twenty pounds lighter it would've made Zack's go / no go decision for him before the glider pitched up that high and he would've only tumbled ONCE before striking the ground with the basetube low.
It's fine to want to work on better solutions to make us all safer by improving technology...
Which assholes like you ignore and piss all over because none of it has huge track records.
...it's ugly and inhuman to use the death of a really nice guy to advance your point...
FUCK HIM. This sport REEKS with really nice guys who never seem to be around in the discussion after someone's crushed to lifeless pulp on the shit equipment they sell, endorse, use, or tolerate. The really nice guys in this sport are NOT really nice guys.
Rob Kells, for example, was a really nice guy and a friend to every pilot he met because he used sleazy language like:
Always use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less.
...instead of defining an APPROPRIATE weak link for his glider models. If he had done that then maybe that would've forced the Moyes pigfuckers to define appropriate weak links for THEIR gliders, this standard aerotow weak link bullshit - which Wills Wing is now officially backing - would've gone down the toilet, and Zack would've been able to DECIDE FOR HIMSELF whether or not that was the right instant to pop off tow.
But he didn't do that 'cause then he'd have started making enemies of the assholes in this sport and this sport is goddam near ALL assholes.
...in case it wasn't obvious I agree with Bart and Jim...
No, it was entirely obvious. All three of you stupid motherfuckers are from about the same layer of the gene pool.
...and no it's not a lack of english comprehension - he said there would have been a different outcome with a stronger weaklink.
Yeah, what an asshole. 180, 260, 300, 450, 600... The tow's gonna go pretty much the same.
So lemme get this straight, Kinsley...
Most of the folks who have been towing for decades have worked this stuff out.
And have concluded that a single precision loop of 130 pound Greenspot is the PERFECT weak link for all solo gliders - from under 200 to over 350 pounds.
But...
...he said there would have been a different outcome with a stronger weaklink.
You jump on Antoine for saying that different strength weak links produce different outcomes in flight.
I'm having a REAL hard time following your logic here, dude. Wanna elaborate a bit?
If you want to be taken sympathetically I suggest using a different tone.
Lessee...
Antoine's doing a solid technical discussion, Jim Love-It-Or-Leave-It Rooney and Bart No-Stress-Because-I-Was-High Weghorst tell him - with absolutely no comment on the substance of what he's saying - to "get fucked", and you suggest ANTOINE us a different tone?
If you didn't know, English isn't Deltaman's first language.
Of course not... it's Asshole-ese.
Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals. I just buried my friend and you're seizing the moment to preach your bullshit? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!
OH! He was a FRIEND of yours? I had a real good feeling that if we ever crossed paths at an AT operation we'd despise each other. Glad to see my instincts were spot on.
I can barely stand these pompus asswipes on a normal day.
You are SO FUCKED on this one, Jim.
Antoine,
Keep ignoring Rooney, Bart, Davis. Those guys are - along with Zack Marzec - nonentities. They're all sinking in their own excrement right now. Don't even dignify them parting glances. Just stay on topic with the issues.
