The purpose of a weak link is solely to prevent the tow force from increasing to a point that the glider can be stressed close to or beyond its structural limits. Lockouts can and do occur without increasing tow tension up until the point where the glider is radically diverging from the direction of tow. At this point tension rises dramatically and something will give - preferably the weak link. Given that a certified glider will take 6-10G positive a 1.5G weak link as opposed to a standard 1G weak link should not significantly increase the risk of structural failure. It will however significantly decrease the probability of an unwanted weak link break.
Jim's response...
Yeah, I've read that drivel before.
It's a load of shit.
So, do you think it drivel and a load of shit?
Davis Straub - 2013/04/10 13:00:34 UTC
Ah, 2011.
- Yeah Davis, concussions play absolute havoc with long term memory.
- So what's changed in Rooney's position in the period since?
I agree with Rohan.
Bullshit.
- Rohan's saying:
The purpose of a weak link is solely to prevent the tow force from increasing to a point that the glider can be stressed close to or beyond its structural limits.
You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.
Having trouble keeping track of and coordinating all the misrepresentations, distortions, and lies?
I don't know exactly what Jim is objecting to.
- Same thing you are. Any hint of the reality that this "standard aerotow weak link" lockout protector you stupid evil motherfuckers have been forcing down everyone's throat for decades has been crashing gliders at ridiculous rates and endangering and ending lives.
- Why don't you unlock some Davis Show threads and get Rooney to explain what he's objecting to? I can really use the quotes.
Davis doesn't do direct responses. Anything that appears to be one is a miscalculation on his part.
Reading this and other posts it would appear Jim disagrees with all of it, calls it 'drivel' and assures us that anyone who disagrees must be an armchair pilot.
So we have one group of experts saying one thing and another saying the opposite. Both can't be right.
Well, hang gliding is an opinion driven branch of aviation so it's really hard to say for sure.
I believe you now tow with a stronger weak-link than what is considered 'normal'. Why?
Davis Straub - 2013/04/10 13:59:43 UTC
I think that the argument could use a bit more thought and clarification.
Gee, and here I was thinking that every position you back requires less thought and more obfuscation.
I tow with the weaklink material that I got originally from David Glover and that is/was used for tandem tows at Wallaby Ranch.
Sounds awfully dangerous then, for either a solo or a tandem - maybe both.
It is my understanding that it is 200 pound test line (see above).
Reminds me of all the assholes who buy your bent pin "releases" with the understanding...
The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
I am more than happy to have a stronger weaklink and often fly with the string used for weaklinks used at Wallaby Ranch for tandem flights (orange string - 200 lbs). We used these with Russell Brown's (tug owner and pilot) approval at Zapata after we kept breaking weaklink in light conditions in morning flights.
...shit.
So what was his "THINKING" behind using 130 pound Greenspot for all one and two point solo gliders - irrespective of flying weights, max certified operating weights, and FAA aerotowing regulations?
I have changed the weaklink once since then.
Why? Doesn't a 200 just start getting closer to the perfect aerotow weak link as it starts getting chewed up a little?
I don't know if there is a real disagreement between Rohan and Jim.
Yeah, I've read that drivel before.
It's a load of shit.
Of course not. How could anybody ever get an impression like that?
Both would agree that the weaklink is there for "safety" purposes.
Really? Rooney says:
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC
The "purpose" of a weaklink is not in question. Your semantics are.
The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.
in all aviation the pilot is usually the weakest link.....
The purpose of a weak link is solely to prevent the tow force from increasing to a point that the glider can be stressed close to or beyond its structural limits. Lockouts can and do occur without increasing tow tension up until the point where the glider is radically diverging from the direction of tow. At this point tension rises dramatically and something will give - preferably the weak link. Given that a certified glider will take 6-10G positive a 1.5G weak link as opposed to a standard 1G weak link should not significantly increase the risk of structural failure. It will however significantly decrease the probability of an unwanted weak link break.
Consider a standard tow force of up to 0.8G. A 1G weak link gives a 25% strength margin. A 1.5G weak link gives 88% strength margin or 300+% more than for the 1G link. At weak link break a 1G link will give a total glider load of 2G, a 1.5G weak link a total load of 2.5G or 25% more. The stronger weak link therefore gives a 300+% increase in strength margin for a 25% increase in ultimate load.
I use a stronger weak link for the simple reason that low level weak link breaks are dangerous as the glider may not recover from the probable ensuing stall prior to hitting the ground. They are also dangerous in tailwind launch conditions although you should never take of tailwind in anything stronger than you are willing to land in. In my opinion these problems presents a far bigger risk than that of structural failure. In my experience weak link breaks cause numerous problems, whereas thanks to the quality of today's gliders structural failure is almost unheard of. Yeah, I do know of on incident where a pilot locked out and was pulled through a previously straightened down tube leading to partial structural failure - the pilot was OK. In the event of a lock out I plan to release, and release early, because I know that by the time my weak link breaks (no matter how weak) the glider is likely to be diverging from the tow direction in a steep bank and dive. If my release fails the weak link will still break before the glider. This being said it is still far preferable to use low tow tension, headwind launch, and a standard weak link.
1 The bridle set up is the pilots responsibility - after all they depend on it
2 The weak link forms an integral part of the bridle set up. It should be made and tested by the pilot. If the knot comes undone then the pilot should learn to tie a better one. The weak link will only break at a consistent load if the string snaps, not if the knot comes undone.
3 Higher climb rates and heavier glider/pilot combinations will inevitably need stronger weak links. One size weak link does does not fit all. A 1G weak link for a heavy pilot may well represent 1.5G for a light one. If they keep breaking make them stronger. Alternatively reduce tug climb rate to decrease tension or fly a lighter glider ;-)
4 Experience has shown that different batches of weak link line from the same manufacturer break at quite different loads. Test each batch yourself using exactly the set up you use in the glider. Use your personally tested stuff exclusively.
5 The way the weak link is set up does influence its breaking load. The knot is the weakest point and decreases the strength of the line to ~50-70% of its un-knotted strength. Different types of knots weaken the line to different degrees. Because of this it is important to tie the same knot/s every time and position the knot/s consistently. If the knot is under tension a given number of strands of weak link will be weaker than if the knot is not under tension (i.e. excluded from the tension strands). It really doesn't matter what type of knot you tie (provided it doesn't come undone) or where you position it provided you are consistent and you test your system as in 4 above.
6 Have a bridle system that is as foolproof as possible. Remember nothing is absolutely foolproof because fools are just too damn ingenious. A system that only requires a snap hook to be attached to the tow line is almost foolproof. The pilot can then personally check his/her system during their preflight.
7 Make sure all your stuff is good stuff. Check you stuff works. Personally put your own stuff together. Check you have put all your stuff together right - remember glider, harness and tow bridle are all essential elements of your stuff.
8 Accept that tug pilots come in all flavours - the good, the bad and the ugly. So do tow pilots. Do your part right and make their job easy. If you feel they could give a better tow give them the feedback they need to do this. Diplomacy may be required. Remember hooking onto tow is an article of faith on both ends of the line.
9 None of this is rocket science. It is basic physics combined with elementary mechanics. It applies to all aerotowing and to towing in general. If things go wrong analyse why and fix the problem. Develop the most foolproof system possible. Do it the same way all the time, every time. Remember Murphy's extended law which states: "If anything can go wrong it will go wrong. It will also be the worst possible thing that could go wrong and will inevitably occur at the worst possible moment". Also remember Sod's law which simply states: "Murphy was an optimist"
10 Follow 1-9 then relax and enjoy stress reduced towing.
...and in it the word "safety" appears NOWHERE.
And former USHGA Towing Committee Chairman and Quest Air Troll Steve Kroop says:
Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster.
Seems like a lot of leeway for disagreement to me.
At least I think that they would.
I think - and reality proves - otherwise.
I want a weaklink that is weak enough to break long before the glider is stressed to the maximum, one that will break instantly if I plow in, but one that won't break under normal line slack and recovery.
Can't you just save us all a lot of bandwidth and express that in Gs? Then EVERYONE will know EXACTLY what rating WILL break:
- long before the glider is stressed to the maximum; and
- instantly if they plow in
but WON'T break:
- under normal line slack and recovery.
I'm thinking that 1.17 Gs should do the trick. What do you think?
As long as the tow pilot is comfortable with my weaklink...
Yeah, we DEFINITELY don't want something that will cause the tow pilot the LEAST bit of DISCOMFORT as...
Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC
Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke.
...the glider for which he's responsible is popping off into a fatal whipstall.
I'll go with a bit stronger one.
Why do we need to be concerned with the tow pilot's comfort level with your weak link if it's no more than he tows for tandem?
I had extensive conversations with Mark Frutiger, manager at Quest Air, the other day and I got the impression that he isn't too concerned from the tug pilot's end...
Great news. I'd really hate to think that he was concerned about anything all this time after Zack Marzec slammed in.
...as he has his three strands of 130 lb on his V-bridle.
Well there ya go then.
- He's using a three-strander to protect the tow mast breakaway which is set to blow at the strength of the four-strander they decided was the right weak link for tandems which is the same as the orange stuff you're using.
- So the tow pilot isn't really THE LEAST concerned about what you use because YOU'LL be the one landing with the rope.
What is your exact position?
Tost Flugzeuggerätebau
Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
Upping the values to a point where a weak-link break becomes a rare occurrence rather than an acceptable occupational hazard is an extremely sensible move.
That thousands of people over the course of hundreds of thousands of flights have been forbidden by assholes like him and his buddies to make.
I think you have increased your chances of keeping healthy...
Not necessarily. That bent pin piece of shit he's got on his shoulder...
I think an argument can be made for both the stronger or weaker weak link.
Not by anyone who has a fucking clue what he's talking about. In sailplaning the manufacturer specifies a weak link rating which never strays too far from 1.3 Gs surface and 1.4 aero.
In January I had one break off the cart and it resulted in a shoulder injury.
- Whoa! Dude! Good thing it:
-- very clearly provided protection from an excessive angle of attack, high bank turn, and the like for that form of towing.
-- increased the safety of the towing operation.
-- *saved* your ass. You still piled into the earth despite the weak link helping you... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability.
-- protected your aircraft against overloading.
- You haven't told us your flying weight, glider capacity, bridle configuration, or weak link rating or material. But it's a no brainer that it was a Marzec Link and it blew at around half a G.
- GOOD. We really need to keep natural selection working in the hang gliding gene pool as much as possible.
In Zack's case, I think...
Bullshit.
...a stronger weak link would not of been an advantage.
How much of a DISADVANTAGE would it have been? How much WORSE could it have made the outcome?
Ideally pinning off would have been the best coarse...
- He GOT pinned off - and very clearly provided protection from a high angle of attack for that form of towing.
- The best COURSE was to continue the tow to workable altitude 'cause that's the only reason we have gliders, tugs, and flight parks.
- If this had been a SAILPLANE operation...
Dr. Trisa Tilletti 1
You and I have flown sailplanes for almost as long as we have flown hang gliders. We own two sailplanes and have two airplanes that we use for towing full-size sailplanes. In all the time that we have flown and towed sailplanes, we have not experienced or even seen a sailplane weak link break.
Dr. Trisa Tilletti 2
It's not that it doesn't happen, but it is a rare occurrence. Russell Brown, a founder of Quest Air in Florida and a well-known Dragonfly tug pilot, is also a sailplane pilot, tug pilot, and A&P mechanic for a large commercial sailplane towing operation in Florida. He told us that, like us, he has never seen a sailplane weak link break, either.
...this WOULD NOT have happened 'cause in REAL aviation you don't have total assholes flying with the expectation that their weak links break as early as possible in lockout situations.
...but things probably happened to fast for that to happen...
Bull fucking shit. Read Mark Frutiger's account.
Both planes knew exactly what they were dealing with, the one who was relying on the piece of shit fishing line to transmit his thrust had 250 feet worth of advance notice, and neither one considered the situation problematic enough to abort.
And it WASN'T problematic until the focal point of their safe towing system kicked in and took over as Pilot In Command of Zack's glider.
...and being so low...
150 feet ain't all that fucking low. It was high enough for a tailslide, whipstall, and two complete tumble rotations.
...I'd of probably tried to ride it out.
EVERYBODY would HAVE - in hopes that there'd be plenty more where that one came from 'cause big fat thermals are the reason we tow.
Not really sure which route is the best coarse.
- It's COURSE. COARSE is the way a Raven sounds.
- Duh.
- Then shut the fuck up 'cause we've got WAY too many people who have no freakin' clue what they're talking about weighing in on this incident. Even Mike Bomstad has demonstrated enough common sense to remain totally absent from the discussions this time.
- Wanna say anything about the fact that Zack was being pro toad? Just kidding.
Well said Billo
I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.
Ah but hg'ers get so uppity when you tell them not to speculate.
However, there is one thing that is a stonewall guarantee.
All of the public discussion of this incident will occur in the lower ranks while the big flight park operators, Towing Committee members, and USHGA officials will remain as silent as undiscovered tombs.
Zack's flight changed from one flight mode to a completely different flight mode...
Cinderblock.
...in an instant. The chances of the two paths then merging back together and giving the exact same result are minuscule.
Yeah, but with a stronglink he might have gotten even MORE killed.
How likely is it that his glider would have entered a hammerhead stall had his weak-link held?
Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.
The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".
The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.
I get it.
It can be a pisser.
But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.
If you speculate as to the possible outcome without a weak-link failure you must include scenarios where he survived because his flight would have been a completely different one.
Therefore the point at which Zack's situation became unsurvivable was when his weak-link failed. All other options open to him were removed in that instant.
I don't think this is stretching the imagination too much.
If these assholes were capable of grasping that kind of logic they'd have gotten it already.
Hey Kinsley, haven't heard anything from you for a while. Any comments on the way the discussion is going. Or...
Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC
Well actually he didn't. But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...
...are you still totally cool with listening to the folks who actually know what they're talking about - but aren't saying anything beyond expressing their contempt for the people who fly hang gliders and ordering them not to speculate?
Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.
It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.
Ok, keyboard in hand.
I've got a bit of time, but I'm not going to write a dissertation... so either choose to try to understand what I'm saying, or (as is most often the case) don't.
I don't care.
Here's a little bit of bitter reality that ya'll get to understand straight off. I won't be sugar coating it, sorry.
You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.
I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.
And yes. It is my call. PERIOD.
On tow, I am the PIC.
Now, that cuts hard against every fiber of every HG pilot on the planet and I get that.
Absolutely no HG pilot likes hearing it. Not me, not no one. BUT... sorry, that's the way it is.
Accept it and move on.
Not only can you not change it, it's the law... in the very literal sense.
So, you're quite right in your thinking in your example. The person you have to convince is me (or whoever your tuggie is).
I've had this conversation with many people.
We've had various outcomes.
I can tell you what my general ideas and rules are, but you do not need to agree with them nor do you get to dictate anything to me... if I'm not happy, you ain't getting towed by me. Why I'm not happy doesn't matter. It's my call, and if I'm having so much as a bad hair day, then tough. You can go get someone else. I won't be offended. Each tuggie is different, and I've had someone ask me to tow them with some stuff that I wasn't happy with and I told him point blank... go ask the other guy, maybe he'll do it.
I can tell you that for me, you're going to have a hell of a time convincing me to tow you with *anything* home-made.
"But I love my mouth release! It's super-delux-safe"... that's great, but guess what?
I've towed at places that use different weak links than greenspot. They're usually some other form of fishing line. Up in Nelson (New Zealand), they don't have greenspot, so they found a similar weight fishing line. They replace their link every single tow btw... every one, without question or exception... that's just what the owner wants and demands. Fine by me. If it wasn't, then I wouldn't tow for them and I wouldn't be towed by them. That's his place and he gets to make that call. Pretty simple.
Up at Morningside, they're using that new orange weaklink. It's a bit stronger and it has to be sewn or glued so it doesn't slip when unloaded.
If you're within the FAA specs and you're using something manufactured, then you're going to have a far better time convincing me to tow you.
My general rule is "no funky shit". I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots. Have I towed a few test pilots? Yup. Have I towed them in anything but very controlled conditions? Nope. It's a damn high bar. I've told more to piss off than I've told yes. I'll give you an example... I towed a guy with the early version of the new Lookout release. But the Tad-o-link? Nope.
So I hope that sheds some light on the situation.
But again, every tuggie's different and every situation is different.
What doesn't change however is that it's my call, not yours.
And it's my job to be the "bad guy" sometimes.
Sorry. It's just the way it is.
If the All Knowing and All Powerful Tug Pilot is the Pilot In Command of both aircraft in a towing operation and determines:
- what conditions he will and won't fly in
- who he will and won't tow
- what towing equipment he will and won't allow
- what weak link configuration he will and won't allow (FAA aerotowing regulations be damned)
shouldn't the motherfucker be held totally accountable if his passenger is killed in the course of that towing operation?
Doesn't it work something like that in REAL aviation, for the captain of a ship, for the driver of a car? Or is this game of yours all rights and privileges - and ZERO ACCOUNTABILITY?
Tell me how Mark Frutiger...
Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC
Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke. I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again. I did not see the entry to the tumble, but I did see two revolutions of a forward tumble before kicking the tug around to land. The thermal was still active in the area that I had just launched from so I did a go round and landed on a runway 90 degrees cross to the direction we were towing in.
Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/09 02:31:37 UTC
The turbulance level was strong, among the strongest thermal activity I've felt leaving the field. I've encountered stronger mechanical mixing, but the vertical velocity this time was very strong.
...knowingly and deliberately flies a plane for which he is Pilot In Command and has no ability to climb or maintain altitude on its own during takeoff:
- into some of the strongest thermal activity he's felt leaving the field
- with a connection he EXPECTS will fail
and consequently drops that plane with its paying passenger a hundred and fifty feet to a fatal impact with the runway - gets to walk with no accountability whatsoever.
All "Aerotowing Concern" posts subsequent to Mike's 2013/04/11 11:39:23 UTC - quoted and commented on two posts back - have vanished from the Jack Show thread and forum.
--- http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern
SlingBlade - 2013/04/13 06:16:49 UTC
Clearly there is a lack of information... we don't know for sure what happened.
Yeah, an advanced tandem aerotow instructor is pro toad up into a monster thermal on a Rooney Link at or off the bottom of the FAA legal/safety range which the flight park operator had condemned five years earlier as dangerous, the Rooney Link popped while the glider was standing on it's tail, the glider tailslid, whipstalled, and tumbled twice before crashing, and the pilot was shortly thereafter found on the runway under the wreckage conscious but dying.
Could've been a drug overdose, SARS, meteorite strike, or an attack by a Black Bear, Florida Panther, Alligator, or Burmese Python. The professionals are all stymied, the body was interred before any thought to fly in Crack Hang Gliding Accident Investigator Martin Henry, and we'll probably never no what really happened.
But to the new guy asking how best to avoid this:
1. When you are aerotowing, especially close to the ground...
...or, in this case, at 150 feet...
...you need to be ready for a weak link break at all times.
And NEVER EVER consider using a Tad-O-Link which protects your aircraft against overloading and is totally fuckin' useless as a lockout preventer.
As soon it breaks you need to pull in aggressively.
You had a thing and it broke needlessly.
You didn't want the thing to break needlessly.
You replaced the thing with a stronger thing.
Now the thing doesn't break needlessly.
...didn't break needlessly? Just kidding.
This needs to become a second nature, automatic reaction. The faster you pull in the less chance there is that you will stall.
And since this is aerotowing - not free flying - no matter what you're hit with, you'll ALWAYS be able to prevent a stall. It's impossible for anything bad to happen to you as long as you react properly and immediately. Mother Nature's bitch who's got nuthin' on really competent pilots who've been properly trained.
2. If you hit a thermal you should pull in some, and be ready in case the weak link breaks.
And you'll always be just fine. If you release yourself or...
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered - I was probably at a twenty-degree bank - so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver. I cleared the buildings, but came very close to the ground at the bottom of the wingover. I leveled out and landed.
Analyzing my incident made me realize that had I released earlier I probably would have hit the ground at high speed at a steep angle. The result may have been similar to that of the pilot in Germany. The normal procedure for a tow pilot, when the hang glider gets too high, is to release in order to avoid the forces from the glider pulling the tug nose-down into a dangerous dive. However Neal kept me on line until I had enough ground clearance, and I believe he saved me from injury by doing so. I gave him a heart-felt thank you.
...your tug driver makes a good decision in the interest of your safety you're fucked. But if it's just a Rooney Link pop it'll increase the safety of the towing operation - and you'll be JUST FINE.
3. If you have sprogs and are afraid of tumbling don't turn them way down.
Yeah. If your sprogs are dialed way up it'll be impossible for the glider to tumble after a tailslide and whipstall. Best play it safe.
If there is anything especially dangerous about aerotow it is how crucial the first few seconds of your flight are...
And, every now and then, up to 150 feet - or whatever it takes to get a parachute out and opened in response to a tumble.
...and how easy it is to get complacent.
Complacent enough to be pro toad with a Rooney Link, inaccessible bent pin releases, a Dragonfly tow mast breakaway, and a driver ready to fix whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope.
You need to think through all the scenarios and what you are going to do in your head before you launch, and have your head in the game.
Yeah Ground. All the survivable scenarios anyway.
But for the love o' God don't think about what REALLY happened to Zack Marzec because then you might get the impression that the pigfuckers who've been controlling this decades long clusterfuck really don't have a goddam clue what they're doing or talking about and are WAY more interested in keeping their asses covered than cleaning up their acts to eliminate the possibility of you getting killed the same way this advanced tandem aerotow instructor pro toad just did.
Not to downplay how important the above is, but even if you failed to react in a timely fashion it is extraordinarily rare for people to tumble.
And you'll be just fine as long as you just STALL back into the runway - like Brad Anderson, Eric Aasletten, Mike Del Signore, Bill Bennett, Frank Spears, Jamie Alexander, Mike Haas, Jeremiah Thompson, and Arlan Birkett did.
That was really the unusual thing about this accident, from what I've heard. I've seen people break weak links close to the ground, be slow to react and stall, but still pull it off in ground effect.
Anybody who is truly a good pilot, in any form of aviation, knows that the knowledge, skills, and judgement you have in your head, learned from thorough instruction from a good instructor with a good curriculum, are the best pieces of equipment you can fly with. Good equipment is important, the best equipment is a well-trained brain.
Well-trained brain, no problem.
(Hey Tracy! Really been enjoying your "Higher Education" articles in the magazine. When's the next one coming out?)
Mike Lake - 2013/04/13 10:00:08 UTC
1. When you are aerotowing, especially close to the ground, you need to be ready for a weak link break at all times. As soon it breaks you need to pull in aggressively. This needs to become a second nature, automatic reaction. The faster you pull in the less chance there is that you will stall.
Sound advice of course however, "...the less chance there is that you will stall" is the point where luck starts to come into the equation.
We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.
If we don't have someone stall back into the runway every now and then the sport will totally lose it's attraction and people like Ground will start getting into scratching paragliders low in gnarly thermal conditions.
2. If you hit a thermal you should pull in some, and be ready in case the weak link breaks.
Again, sound advice, but I bet Zack would have wished he had taken the second option and not had his weak-link break at all.
Sorry... Wished he had not had his weak link break AT ALL?!
Oh bullshit! The conditions and equipment change with each tow. We adapt and fly on, lesson learned each time.
Weak-links break! They are supposed to...we are ready for that. It's what we do.
Not really following you here.
Not to downplay how important the above... I've seen people break weak links close to the ground, be slow to react and stall, but still pull it off in ground effect.
"...but still pull it off..." That luck thing again.
Everyone who lives dies, yet not everyone who dies, has lived.
We take these risks not to escape life, but to prevent life escaping us.
HANG GLIDERS ARE *NOT* STALL-PROOF AIRCRAFT. They can and do get stalled and dumped in thermal conditions in free flight (damn near got killed that way at Jockey's Ridge on 1984/07/05) and they get stalled and dumped REAL easy in thermal conditions when a Rooney Link pops...
Donnell Hewett - 1981/10
Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation"...
...when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation.
That makes me wonder if there are a perfect set of conditions were you could stall and tumble... but I think they are very unlikely.
WHO GIVES A FLYING FUCK WHETHER OR NOT THE GLIDER TUMBLES? How far can a glider fall in a stall before it recovers - and how far do you need to fall to get killed?
I had a bad release one time that kept opening and had quite a few low releases until I was able to figure out how to get it fixed.
Wanna tell us what the release was, what criminally negligent dickhead sold it to you, what the problem was, and how you got it fixed?
I got plenty of practice dealing with it. As long as I reacted quickly, and was careful not to push out a lot when low to the ground, I never felt I was anywhere close to a stall.
Great!
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
Then there probably wasn't any possibility of you having a serious problem. With a release AND a Rooney Link ready to go off at random the safety of your towing operation must've been increased twice as much as everybody else's!
Weak links are going to break...
Yeah. It's not like in sailplaning...
Dr. Trisa Tilletti 1
You and I have flown sailplanes for almost as long as we have flown hang gliders. We own two sailplanes and have two airplanes that we use for towing full-size sailplanes. In all the time that we have flown and towed sailplanes, we have not experienced or even seen a sailplane weak link break.
Dr. Trisa Tilletti 2
It's not that it doesn't happen, but it is a rare occurrence. Russell Brown, a founder of Quest Air in Florida and a well-known Dragonfly tug pilot, is also a sailplane pilot, tug pilot, and A&P mechanic for a large commercial sailplane towing operation in Florida. He told us that, like us, he has never seen a sailplane weak link break, either.
...where they DON'T.
...releases may accidentally release.
Not mine - motherfucker.
You have to expect it to happen every time you launch.
Yeah. Exactly like you have to expect to go off unhooked every time you foot launch. But you ALWAYS take actions to make sure that it NEVER happens 'cause you can get seriously fucked up if it does.
Fundamentally we...
Define "WE" - motherfucker.
...require weak links not just for our safety but that of the tug.
Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster.
... NOT there for ANYONE'S safety. They're ONLY there to protect the equipment from OVERLOAD.
-- And it's damn near physically impossible to overload anything in the critical takeoff phase.
-- And if you DO manage to effect an overload situation in the critical takeoff phase to the point that the weak link is required to kick in don't expect:
--- it to do so before you hit the ground
--- to live very long if it kicks in while you're still in the air
-- And don't count on great results from a weak link terminated lockout - regardless of the strength - unless you're REALLY HIGH.
- Fuck the goddam tug.
-- The fuckin' goddam tugs have ZERO concern for our safety and they're so excellent at worrying about nothing but their own that they don't need any help from us.
-- These off the scale stupid motherfuckers need to figure out how to configure their OWN weak links...
Towing Aloft - 1998/01
I witnessed a tug pilot descend low over trees. His towline hit the trees and caught. His weak link broke but the bridle whipped around the towline and held it fast. The pilot was saved by the fact that the towline broke!
...to work on the once a decade occasions when they need them before they start involving themselves in other people's problems.
-- Name ONE INCIDENT in which a tug was spared from a crash by a Rooney Link.
- "WE" don't REQUIRE weak links.
-- "WE" - USHGA - deleted all mention of weak links, even as recommendations - from the SOPs five days after Zack Marzec's killed him.
-- The fuckin' FAA requires weak links - to make sure that planes on both ends of the aerotow operation don't get ripped apart and the glider doesn't get left with the rope.
-- The FAA specifies a range of 0.8 to 2.0 times the max certified operating weight of the glider.
-- Assuming that they know what they're talking about... What number inside that range might you pick as optimal?
The weak link must break before the tug or glider get into such an extreme position...
A Rooney Link on a two point bridle will transmits 226 pounds of towline tension.
-- What's the most severe bank angle a glider can roll with a 226 pound sideways pull on it?
-- What happens to a Dragonfly with 226 pounds pulling straight down on the tip of it's tail?
-- Why would anyone on either end of the towline not release five minutes before things got that tits up?
...that something critical breaks...
Tell me what it is that breaks (besides fuckin' idiot Bobby Bailey's fuckin' idiot tow mast breakaway) on a tug or glider with a six hundred pound up, down, left, right perpendicular pull.
...or a release at that point stalls one or both no matter the inputs of the pilots.
Yeah. Let's use Rooney links to prevent gliders...
Maybe you can get some benifit by tweaking its strength...
- FROM WHAT TO WHAT?
- Anybody who "TWEAKS" weak link strength is a total fucking moron. If you have something that breaks when you don't want it to start off by doubling it.
...but I don't think it will reduce risk much.
You don't think - PERIOD.
If there are some rare freak conditions out there that was bad for this weak link...
The turbulance level was strong, among the strongest thermal activity I've felt leaving the field. I've encountered stronger mechanical mixing, but the vertical velocity this time was very strong.
Freak conditions. Who'da thunk?
...who is to say that a different weak link would not have its own set of freak conditions that are equally dangerous?
Yeah, a different weak link might possibly have gotten him equally killed for different reasons...
Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.
...some obvious, some not. The general consensus is the age old adage...
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC
The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".
..."Err on the side of caution."
But the "other side"... the not cautions one...
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC
But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
...is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger. Better to be be dead because of a KNOWN issue...
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
...than in a hospital - or worse - because you strayed from something with a huge track record. No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.
Best not to play with it.
Based on your track record, Sling, I have every confidence in your response, reaction time, and ability to handle ANY SITUATION which might arise as a consequence of a Rooney Link pop. Promise to put my mind at rest by changing NOTHING in your approach to aerotowing. And do what you can to keep your friends on the tried and true path as well.
I'm guessing Zack Marzec was operating at no less than 125 - and it didn't do him any good.
Adi Branch - 2013/04/13 14:57:32 UTC
UK
The problem with aerotowing is that there is a point in your training where you know how to aerotow well, but are not yet instinctive enough to know what to do when you get into trouble low down.
My instincts told me, long before I ever got behind a tug, that:
- if you don't have a release that allows you to blow tow with both hands on the basetube your likelihood of being killed on tow goes up by a factor of twenty
- it's extremely unsettling to have you're towline suddenly disappear when you're climbing
- being pulled through the control frame to the point that the bar trims at your chest for want of a bridle attachment on the keel is unlikely to make any situation you might encounter much better.
Unfortunately, this point is in your first two or three solos... it is extremely risky, but we all have to go through it.
Unfortunately, Adi...
- All towed hang gliders are roll unstable.
- When you're aerotowed you're on a short fixed line behind a driver who can do little to nothing to adjust tension/speed enough to help you out when the shit hits the fan.
- If you get hit by the right shit you can be on your ear in a heartbeat and - I don't give a rat's ass who you are or how you're equipped - totally fucked without a lot of air between you and the runway.
Having said that, once you get past this stage, you're fine.
If you have learnt to fly via aerotow from the beginning, then you will be far far better behind the tug than an long term pilot who just decided to give it a go by doing a short conversion course.
Yeah. The brainwashing is so much more effective.
YouTube is littered with examples of long time experienced foot launch pilots aerotowing VERY badly after a short conversion course.
...getting tossed around like leaves and dumped like bricks when Mother Nature gets bored with what we're doing.
However, go to an aerotow park and watch a student who learnt from day one behind a tug, the difference is plain and clear to see. Why? Simple... they learn via a strict tandem course, rather than just jumping into a trolley and hoping for the best.
This is rubbish.
- None of us first wavers started hang gliding by aerotowing.
- Until people started in the early Eighties routing tow tension through the pilot - rather than the bottom of the control frame - about the only people towing to any extent were doing it over water.
- Our first aerotows were foot launched one pointers behind fast tugs and we tended to do as well as the equipment allowed.
- Staying centered behind a tug ain't rocket science.
- Until you guys start:
-- equipping all of your solo gliders like this:
British Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association Technical Manual - 2003/04
On tow the Pilot in Command must have his hand actually on the release at all times. 'Near' the release is not close enough! When you have two hands completely full of locked-out glider, taking one off to go looking for the release guarantees that your situation is going to get worse before it gets better.
with something that actually works when you squeeze or pull it;
I didn't post this info when this thread was 'live' as at the time an accident report was pending.
On the 12th August a new(ish) pilot took off on tow, his weak-link snapped, the glider's nose dropped and with no height to recover he hit the ground.
Now you can dress this incident up as much as you like but what put the guy in hospital was his 'safety device'.
If the weak-link had held he would have had a post flight briefing instead of a trip in a helicopter.
It is true the guy made some mistakes and was not a perfect pilot.
The weak-link sure taught him a lesson, perhaps we should also have given him a good kicking while he was on the ground waiting for the air ambulance.
A stronger weak-link, by that I mean one not teetering on the edge breaking under normal flight conditions, would drastically reduce the above risk.
This, the same risk we all (with current thinking) subject ourselves to on EVERY take off as we fly through the "Cone of Danger"
(smartarse comment acknowledged).
Now, this same guy in all probability will go through his whole flying career without suffering a lockout, he may well experience the onset of a lockout and of course release, as we are all trained to do.
At this onset why would the guy (with a stronger link) wait for his weak-link to break instead of releasing?
If he does wait he can be just as upside down with a weaker link than one that has given him the luxury of a reduced risk on every takeoff he has ever made.
One day we will look back and wonder why we endure this unnecessary risk at such a critical time, just like we now look back and wonder why we thought towing from the middle of the base bar was such a good idea, 'cos that's how everyone does it.
...up to something sane; and
-- shooting a few of your BHPA officials
please refrain from handing out AT recommendations to anybody else.
For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.
...Lauren Tjaden.
And up at Kitty Hawk they've got top notch tandem aerotow instructors like Zack Marzec.
And people like that can really show you how to handle a weak link break. The important points are to...
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2012/06/20
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
12. Hang Gliding Aerotow
-A. Aerotow
05. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.
...have it at high altitude and in smooth air on a two point glider.
Lemme tell ya a few things, Ground...
- These motherfuckers KNOW that one point towing is more dangerous because they:
-- start students two point
-- refer to it as "pro" towing
- Paul Tjaden KNOWS that Rooney Links are DANGEROUS and so stated on the afternoon of 2008/06/02 right after one dumped Lauren when she was straight, level, and smooth taking off from Ridgely.
- Quest has no fuckin' clue as to the strengths of their tandem weak links, tug weak links, and tow mast breakaway and are telling people total rot about their solo weak link strengths and functions.
- The aerotow equipment they sell is dangerous junk. They've seen reports of it killing people, had personal lethal failures at altitude, and done NOTHING to fix any problems or get anything out of circulation.
- An incident virtually identical to this one - minus the Rooney Link pop and fatal impact - was experienced and reported by Dennis Pagen in the 2005/01 issue of Hang Gliding - and no one from the Accident Review Committee, Towing Committee, Kitty Hawk, Quest, or Ridgely made any hint of a disagreement with his interpretation and conclusion that he'd have been totally fucked if he had popped off or been popped off prior to maxing out as much as possible.
- There have been four digits worth of posts pulling tens of thousands of hits in various threads about this incident by people who:
-- are lying
-- are totally clueless
-- are partially clueless
-- know what the fuck they're talking about
and representatives from Quest have - other than to report the simple and obvious facts of the tow - have been TOTALLY ABSENT from any of the conversations. That is NOT the behavior of ANYONE with ANY INTEREST in alerting people to any dangers and/or preventing a rerun. That is the behavior of people strictly interested in covering their asses - their students, customers, patrons, and sport be damned.
