instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

SlingBlade - 2013/04/13 17:14:11 UTC

So reading through the thread...

Reading through that thread you're not gonna be hearing from a key player whom your Friendly Neighborhood "Moderator" banned at 2009/11/10 00:45:32 UTC - immediately after he once again attacked the aerotow parks with their shit equipment and Rooney Link compensators.

...some people think...

But the vast majority of the assholes Jack cultivates over there are completely incapable of doing so.

...this accident...

What accident?

...may have been caused by a weak link that was too strong...

You mean THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlIGsgNFRWM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTKIAvqd7GI

04-2301
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5535/14077566935_0a5d82d279_o.png

08-2323
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5553/14097605903_0e4c69be73_o.png

21-2900
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5156/14074342991_52404ffb88_o.png

22-2907
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7345/14077539605_d356a1f6fd_o.png


...weak link? The one that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 16:45:39 UTC

I am more than happy to have a stronger weaklink and often fly with the string used for weaklinks used at Wallaby Ranch for tandem flights (orange string - 200 lbs). We used these with Russell Brown's (tug owner and pilot) approval at Zapata after we kept breaking weaklink in light conditions in morning flights.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/08 03:16:54 UTC

Just cause we were breaking them apparently a little too easily at Zapata, which is actually hard to understand since the conditions are always pretty mild there, but the last one broke right off launch.

...Tug Pilot, Tug Owner, Quest Air Owner Russell Brown said to go ahead and double up because they couldn't get any gliders airborne in light morning conditions? It may have been too strong?

Yeah, I agree with that. I think that if Zack had been using something lighter he'd have ended that day in great shape.

...and some people think it may have been caused by one not strong enough.

Yeah, they might have a point too...

This guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm-YPa_Gvdw

10-03323
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2928/14397296584_1d0e5e389b_o.png


goes up like a fuckin' rocket - with a dangerous weak link that completely fails to very clearly provide protection from a high angle of attack for that form of towing - and doesn't whipstall.

Obviously there are trade offs.

Let's take a look at them...

Rooney Link:
- blows at random
- cause of 99.9 percent of aerotow incidents
- at or off the bottom of the FAA legal range
- gliders forced to use them by flight parks, tug drivers, and meet heads

1.5 G weak link:
- never breaks

No one has said how strong the weak link was.

Bullshit.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC
A standard 130 pound test weak link was being used.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:56:42 UTC
A standard 130 pound test weak link was being used.

How 'bout doing your fucking homework before babbling more rot about this incident onto the web?

Maybe know one knows.

The ONLY way we wouldn't know EXACTLY what the weak link he was using would've been if one of the Quest assholes got to his soon to be lifeless body, removed the blown weak link from the bridle, and swallowed the evidence. And I doubt anyone was real keen to pull a stunt like that - given what happened at the Mount Woodside LZ a year minus two weeks ago and the repercussions from that stunt.

High AoA during a weak link break...

The pitch attitude and climb rate were high prior to the pop. The angle of attack wasn't - UNTIL the pop.

...and/or not pulling in quickly will definitely cause a stall.

Fuck that. He IMMEDIATELY stuffed the bar to his knees when he got popped - as would have ANY solid Hang One and up.

Plenty of people have made this mistake and recovered.

BULLSHIT. NOBODY fails to react INSTANTLY to getting popped - on or off tow. His relevant mistakes were made before he got on the cart. Once he hit the lift he was just a fucked passenger.

Zack was very unlucky.

People make their own luck in this game - most successfully by eliminating as much of it as possible from the equations. Zack was a Darwin case.

Davis Straub - 2013/04/13 18:40:20 UTC

Likely to be 156 lbs.

Fuck you, Davis. The people who do competent testing on your chintzy fishing line all hit around 130.

Mike Lake - 2013/04/13 19:50:19 UTC

SlingBlade - 2013/04/13 17:14:11 UTC

...some people think this accident may have been caused by a weak link that was too strong, and some people think it may have been caused by one not strong enough.

Regardless.
We know for sure it was thermic, the weak-link failed and the glider had to recover from an excessive angle of attack by diving hard towards the ground.

Yeah, it did it's job a bit too well.

This excessive angle of attack 'materialised' the moment he went from powered flight to non powered flight in an entirely predictable way.
I find it exasperating that some do not see this as the defining moment in this tragedy.

You gotta consider the magnitude of the disinformation campaign.

Pilots want to tow up in thermic conditions and don't want it to take all day.
A weak-link with this capability already puts us past the point of no return.

SlingBlade - 2013/04/13 17:14:11 UTC

Plenty of people have made this mistake and recovered. Zack was very unlucky.

Exactly!! That luck thing again.
How about we remove some of that luck element, give the control back to the pilot and give him a fighting chance?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 01:32:20 UTC

Btw, it's nothing to do with you "counting" on the weaklink breaking... Its about me not trusting you to hit the release.
If it were only about what you want, then you could use what you like.
You want the strongest weaklink you can have.
I want you to have the weakest one practical.. I don't care how much it inconveniences you.
I don't trust you as a rule. You Trust you , but I don't and shouldn't.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

michael170 - 2013/04/14 18:26:14 UTC

SlingBlade - 2013/04/13 12:47:47 UTC

I had a bad release one time that kept opening and had quite a few low releases until I was able to figure out how to get it fixed.

What kind of release was it that "kept opening"? How did you get it fixed?

I'll take a shot at that one...

It was a Quallaby spinnaker shackle piece of shit with too little cable play and/or too much cable binding.

If you use the spinnaker shackle in something akin to the configuration for which it was DESIGNED - with a...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8305428629/


...leechline lanyard - these are total nonissues. The mechanism is either closed or open. But turn Bobby loose with it for a few minutes...

This insecure closing issue was the catalyst for the 1999/02/27 Rob Richardson tandem crash fatality. (The coup de grâce was the tug driver making a good decision in the interest of his safety.)

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

Hey Sling, lemme try this.

Sailplane weak links are all manufacturer specified - max certified operating weight times 1.3 and 1.4 for surface and aero respectively. For all intents and purposes, they...

Dr. Trisa Tilletti 1 - 2012/06

You and I have flown sailplanes for almost as long as we have flown hang gliders. We own two sailplanes and have two airplanes that we use for towing full-size sailplanes. In all the time that we have flown and towed sailplanes, we have not experienced or even seen a sailplane weak link break.

Dr. Trisa Tilletti 2 - 2012/06

It's not that it doesn't happen, but it is a rare occurrence. Russell Brown, a founder of Quest Air in Florida and a well-known Dragonfly tug pilot, is also a sailplane pilot, tug pilot, and A&P mechanic for a large commercial sailplane towing operation in Florida. He told us that, like us, he has never seen a sailplane weak link break, either. Russell owned the first 914-powered Dragonfly ever made--he helped us build the second one, which we still fly.

- NEVER break, and
- are NEVER *NEEDED* to break.

What that means is that if they were all using fifteen G weak links it would make no difference whatsoever.

Along those lines, we all fly with parachutes but - with the main exception aerobatics junkies and a midair and tumble here and there - we never use them. I'd guess 0.2 percent or less for non aero. For the vast majority of us they're expensive ballast and wasted time and effort in drill and repacking clinics.

IF every pilot could figure on one accidental deployment in the course of his career it would be totally insane for anyone to fly with a parachute - because the chance of an individual getting seriously fucked up or killed because of one would far outweigh the chance of one preventing the individual from getting seriously fucked up or killed.

And even though accidental deployments are easily one hundred percent preventable - if you look at the total picture there's still so much carnage resulting from accidental deployments and such a high failure rate on deliberate deployments that they really don't do us much/any good on the average.

Back to weak links...

YES. Sailplanes have one advantage over all but a few hang gliders:
- ALL of their releases WORK and can be blown with no control compromise
and another over ALL hang gliders:
- they're roll stable and, for all intents and purposes, don't lock out.

The people who aren't on equal footing with sailplanes on the first issue are in those positions ENTIRELY BY CHOICE. And I can say with one hundred percent certainty that you're one of them because you:
- have never entered any discussions about releases; and
- are interested in the Rooney Link as a lockout protector.

On the other issue, the one we can't prevent and can only manage, or try to, we few who've equipped ourselves with bulletproof releases have a HUGE advantage of you assholes who put your release actuators within easy reach. There is only one documented low level lockout crash (fatal) of an aerotower who had a release which allowed him to blow tow with both hands on the basetube. And the piece of crap that he was using is well documented to have shit load capacity and require several pulls or not work at all inside the relevant timeframe.

The good news for you easy reach guys is that low level lockouts are EXTREMELY rare and mostly avoidable - but that's the issue that scares the crap out of you and the one you're hoping to address with a Rooney Link.

Rooney Links - for all but the very lightest gliders out there - are so close to normal tow tension that they go off AT RANDOM. Do we really need to show you any more videos and accounts of them blowing as people come off carts or twenty feet up in calm air?

And, since, if the pilot's doing his job, lockouts happen in response to gliders getting kicked - something that can happen ON OR...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yFUkMBhXEg

04-1409
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3903/14555125331_c930110666_o.png


...OFF TOW - and there's very seldom that much of a tension increase until the glider's already on its ear, a Rooney Link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_n5B3-MIC4

05-1318

07-1522

11-1814

12-1915


...can't do you much good.

And you need to understand that ONCE the glider's on its ear the tension's gonna build up and build up FAST...

deltaman - 2012/05/25 19:45:39 UTC

I miss opportunity to be aerotowed in my mountains but 2 months ago we spent 4 days teaching AT to 12 pilots in 2 points. All had 190kg weaklink (220kg on tug side).
One of them oscillate and start to lockout. I said by radio : (time to) release, he did it (JoeStreet release), but 1ms to late.. the weaklink was just blowed.
and no unexpected wl failure in 90 AT.
I'm confident in this way to think wl..

...so the difference between the three quarters G, which blows at random, and one and a half G, which NEVER blows, tends to be totally negligible.

Note that THIS:

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

Actually, that is our expectation of performance for weak links on hang gliders here at Cloud 9, too. Primarily, we want the weak link to fail as needed to protect the equipment, and not fail inadvertently or inconsistently. We want our weak links to break as early as possible in lockout situations, but be strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent weak link breaks from turbulence. It is the same expectation of performance that we have for the weak links we use for towing sailplanes.

is a total load of crap. The tension fluctuations you get in towing through typical turbulence on good thermal days are:
- HUGE
- up to only the tiniest fraction of what would start making your glider feel uncomfortable about its structural integrity
- WAY beyond the zero pounds needed to be pulling when your glider can go into a lethal lockout

The situation in which a glider's gonna be locked out at just the right bank angle with and just the right angle of attack and just the right altitude for a Rooney Link to be of ANY advantage over something twice as heavy is statistically nonexistent.

The situations in which a Rooney Link - which we've documented and established blows at random - can blow and crash you, seriously fuck you up, or kill you are NOT statistically nonexistent.

I have every confidence that you're a perfect pilot and perfect pilots CAN eliminate, minimize, and mitigate a lot of the risks of Rooney Link pops. But anybody who thinks that there's nothing he can't handle with - or without - the complication of a pop when leaving the downwind end of a runway on a string behind another aircraft and come out smelling like a rose is just BEGGING for a lesson in reality from Mother Nature.

And anybody who thinks he can handle anything with a release actuator within easy reach, like yours is, or with a release actuator within easy reach while being pro toad, like Zack Marzec, is too delusional to be worth talking to.

So you're maintaining this fantasy, with zilch in the way of supporting evidence, that by using a Rooney Link at or off the bottom of the legal range that blows at random that one day everything will line up just right to put you in a lethal low level lockout situation and just right for a perfectly timed pop to do the job that you won't be able able to do with the shit equipment you've elected to use.

And this imaginary risk management comes at a REAL cost of random pops and the resultant:
- lost soaring time for the perpetrator and everyone in line behind him
- relight gas, engine maintenance, landing wear and tear
- runway time and abuse
- risks associated with:
-- fatigue and overheating
-- forced/emergency glider landings
-- tug landings
-- relight takeoff engine failure and lockout
-- thermal induced whipstall

In other words...

If you can make a case that there will be a benefit of a value of Positive One for a three quarters G weak link pop the offset in expense and risk to both parties is Negative One Thousand.

The glider's situation VIRTUALLY always worsens at the moment of a pop.

And while the effect of a pop ALWAYS improves the tug's IMMEDIATE situation you need to include in the equation the risk involved in the go-around, approach, landing, and relight. So the overall effect leaves the tug WAY in the red.

And you need to run this math yourself because 99 percent of tug drivers have less than five percent of the intelligence to do it for themselves.

Weak links that pop...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.

...DO NOT increase the safety of the towing operation for ANYONE. They, in fact, do the PRECISE OPPOSITE.

If you want to make things as safe as possible for:
- YOURSELF, use a:
-- two point bridle so you have maximum control to stay in proper position
-- release that allows you to blow tow with both hands on the basetube
-- one and a half G weak link that will never break and necessitate additional landings and takeoffs
- YOUR TUG, use a:
-- two point bridle so you have maximum control to stay in proper position
-- release that allows you to blow tow with both hands on the basetube
-- one and a half G weak link that will never break and necessitate additional landings and takeoffs

If you need...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face

Mitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16 UTC
Quest Air

We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.

...additional risk to get your rocks off in this sport have some concern for the tug who might not and save the stupid stuff for after you've been waved off at altitude.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

SlingBlade - 2013/04/15 00:37:08 UTC

It was a standard bicycle release I bought from the flight park.

(Toldyaso, Michael.)

Oh! It was a STANDARD bicycle release.

- Who made it a STANDARD?

- What...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4049
Towing errata

Bill Bryden - 2004/04/01 16:20:18 UTC

Some aerotow releases, including a few models from prominent schools, have had problems releasing under high tensions. You must VERIFY through tests that a release will work for the tensions that could possibly be encountered. You better figure at least three hundred pounds to be modestly confident.

Maybe eight to ten years ago I got several comments from people saying a popular aerotow release (with a bicycle type brake lever) would fail to release at higher tensions. I called and talked to the producer sharing the people's experiences and concerns. I inquired to what tension their releases were tested but he refused to say, just aggressively stated they never had any problems with their releases, they were fine, goodbye, click. Another person tested one and found it started getting really hard to actuate in the range of only eighty to a hundred pounds as I vaguely recall. I noticed they did modify their design but I don't know if they ever really did any engineering tests on it. You should test the release yourself or have someone you trust do it. There is only one aerotow release manufacturer whose product I'd have reasonable confidence in without verifying it myself, the Wallaby release is not it.

...STANDARDS does it meet?

I think it may have been a combination of things.

Essentially just one - it's a total piece of crap coat-hangered together by a total asshole who really never gave a flying fuck about the guys on the back end of the string.

The flight park guys worked on it...

Really great that you had real professionals on the job. So how come the pigfuckers didn't make sure this hardware they've been perfecting for twenty years could hold you on tow...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

...before they let you go up on it?

...it would seem to hold up to plenty of tension...

How the fuck would you know? You're a Rooney Link junkie and that means the most tension it could possibly ever see is 130 pounds.

...then it would pop open.

Good thing it was designed by a fucking genius. Anything less and it would've popped open at just half Rooney Link.

We adjusted the tension screw.

The screw adjusts freeplay - not tension. You can't afford to have ANY tension on the spinnaker shackle spring latch. And that makes the whole cable / bicycle brake lever assembly crap a really bad idea.

I think they may have shortened the length of the release wire.

Shortening the cable would've aggravated the problem.

They also suggested I change the way the release was mounted so that it looped back, sort of down the keel, and then back towards the release.

What a total piece of crap.

It's been rock solid since then... but it seems they can be tricky to get there.

Just what we need. A mission critical piece of hardware that:
- works when you need it not to
- doesn't work when you need it to
- requires critical adjustment and mounting to give you any hope

I've heard some people say they prefer the two point release systems...

That IS a two point system - asshole.

...for just this reason.

Right. It's an overbuilt, under-engineered, draggy piece of junk with zilch reliability so people go with one point systems which they can't use in emergencies EITHER and gives them no hope of keeping the nose down to something survivable in a Zack Marzec scenario.

But it's what I trained on and got used to...

Why don't you get yourself an early Seventies glider with no reflex bridle or washout tips and train on it so you can get used to full luff dives?

...and I don't really care about the drag so I'm sticking with it.

And you also don't give a flying fuck about the people that piece of shit has killed or the reasons they went down so - by all means - stick with it and keep using a Rooney Link and counting on it to do what it DIDN'T FOR Roy Messing and not to do what it DID TO Zack Marzec.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

One more point on this, Sling...

Seventy-two days ago a professional advanced tandem aerotow instructor launched at Quest in very benign weather conditions with light winds and blue skies on a glider that was in good airworthy condition and ended up fatally smashed up back on the runway in well under a minute.

The professionals at Quest have been perfecting aerotowing for twenty years and are - indisputably - the best of the best. These are the people to whom the rest of the world - including USHGA Towing Committee Chairmen Dr. Trisa Tilletti - looks for answers to anything and everything about aerotowing.

Take a look at the résumé of one of their key staffers:

The word most often associated with Bobby Bailey is genius. He's a gifted tow pilot, regarded as one of the best if not the best in the world. He's a gifted aircraft designer as well, building his first hang glider at the age of 18. He designed the Moyes-Bailey Dragonfly tug that sets the standard for towing hang glider pilots worldwide, and in 1995, received a Presidential Citation from the United States Hang Gliding Association - its highest honor - for his history of contribution to the sport of hang gliding through the development and promotion of aerotowing technology.

In 2003, he was inducted into the Rogallo Foundation Hall of Fame for his contribution for the betterment of safety, progress, recognition, promotion, growth and development of low speed flight and the design and development of the Moyes Bailey tug. In 2008, his homebuilt glider won the Red Bull Flugtag in Tampa.

Currently, he is partners with Bill Moyes in Liteflite and spends his winters in Australia.

And he's only had ONE GUY lock out on one of his jammed release mechanisms and die behind him!

And then you've got people like Lauren Tjaden who - on a lockout drill on her final qualifying tandem rating flight - was able to pry her glider loose from tow after failures of BOTH main and backup release systems and quickly get the ensuing wingovers under control. Just imagine how good she is at dealing with weak link blows.

How can you hope to beat talent like that?

And yet with all that genius, talent, and experience on hand they still, after almost two and a half months of exhaustive focus on this tragedy, have NO IDEA why it happened - beyond having eliminated the airworthiness of the glider as a possible issue.

We don't know if the:
- the thermal that was reported to have broken off and lifted the tug and glider had any bearing on the events
- pilot:
-- failed to properly respond to any conditions he may have encountered
-- had some medical crisis which caused him to lose control of the situation
- glider would have benefited from a two point bridle
- releases failed when the pilot attempted to abort the tow
- weak link was too:
-- heavy to very clearly provide protection from excessive angles of attack for this form of towing
-- light to meet our expectation of being reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks from turbulence

And five days following this tragedy USHGA - on the recommendation of its Chief Safety Officer, Tim Herr, and with the cooperation of its Towing Committee Chairmen, Dr. Trisa Tilletti - wisely and prudently deleted all the aerotow equipment guidelines:

USHPA Aerotow Equipment Guidelines

1. The tow vehicle must have a rated thrust of at least 250 lbs.

2. The tow line connection to the towing vehicle must be arranged so as to not hinder the control system of the towing vehicle.

3. A pilot operational release must connect the tow line to the towing vehicle. This release must be operational with zero tow line force up to twice the rated breaking strength of the weak link.

4. Weak links must be used in accordance with 14 CFR 91.309(a)(3). USHPA recommends that a nominal 1G (combined operating weight of the glider and pilot) weak link be used, when placed at one end of a hang glider pilot's V-bridle; or about 1.5-2G if placed at the apex of the tow bridle or directly in-line with the tow rope. The actual strength of the weak link used by the hang glider pilot must be appropriate for the operation and have a breaking strength between 80% and 200% MCOW (max. cert. operating weight) of the glider, in terms of direct towline tension. The weak link used at the tow plane end of the towline must be stronger, but not more than 25% stronger, than the strength of the weak link used at the glider end of the towline.

5. A release must be placed at the hang glider end of the tow line within easy reach of the pilot. This release shall be operational with zero tow line force up to twice the rated breaking strength of the weak link.

6. The purpose of the weak link is to protect the tow equipment, and may not prevent lockouts or other abnormal flight conditions.

from its Standard Operating Procedures.

From this we can infer that:

- A tug with the capability of delivering 250 pounds of thrust may be capable of towing gliders at dangerously high rates of climb that threaten the glider's weak link.

- It may be better for the tug to have the towline connection to be arranged so as to hinder its control system to prevent its pilot from quickly and effectively executing an improper decision. (That would make perfect sense since the gliders are equipped with:
-- bridles which prevent their pilots from flying at too low an angle of attack
-- releases which prevent their pilots from aborting tows
-- and fishing line which prevents their pilots from continuing tows

- A tug release that allows dumping of a slack line or at twice weak link strength may have too much performance range.

- Gliders should use weak links under eighty percent of flying weight to even more very clearly provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns, and the like for this form of towing.

- Tug weak links should be lighter than glider weak links to reduce the likelihood of a tug snagging a towline in the trees or on a fence.

- The release on the glider end should:
-- have very low capacity so as to not encourage the deadly use of stronglinks
-- be placed in a location very difficult to reach to minimize the possibility of a deadly premature release in a monster thermal

- That using the weak link to protect the equipment is a very bad idea for hang gliding and we're much better off using something very light so we can operate it as an instant hands free release.

So anyway...

SlingBlade - 2013/04/13 12:47:47 UTC

I say less chance only because of reports like this, where someone very experience stalled. That makes me wonder if there are a perfect set of conditions were you could stall and tumble... but I think they are very unlikely.

I had a bad release one time that kept opening and had quite a few low releases until I was able to figure out how to get it fixed. I got plenty of practice dealing with it. As long as I reacted quickly, and was careful not to push out a lot when low to the ground, I never felt I was anywhere close to a stall.

Weak links are going to break, releases may accidentally release. You have to expect it to happen every time you launch. Fundamentally we require weak links not just for our safety but that of the tug. The weak link must break before the tug or glider get into such an extreme position that something critical breaks or a release at that point stalls one or both no matter the inputs of the pilots. Maybe you can get some benifit by tweaking its strength, but I don't think it will reduce risk much. If there are some rare freak conditions out there that was bad for this weak link, who is to say that a different weak link would not have its own set of freak conditions that are equally dangerous?

I don't know why GroundEffect bothered to bring this issue up or why any of you muppets are trying to address it.

Since absolutely nothing is currently understood, there's apparently little hope that anything ever will be, no advisories or recommendations have been circulated by hang gliding professionals or officials or the FAA, and we've got scores of uppity hang glider pilots clouding and distorting the issues with their speculation and blatant insubordination it seems to me that any recommendation to do ANYTHING in response to this tragedy is totally irresponsible as it may and probably will be INCREASING the likelihood of a similar tragedy.

So just change or don't change some or all of your equipment and/or procedures however you please, don't advise anything to anybody else, and fly fly fly!

[miguel]

Nice summation.

[groundeffect]

Well said Tad. Lots of energy went into this. Too bad the big dogs slept through it.

[groundeffect]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

I don't know why GroundEffect bothered to bring this issue up or why any of you muppets are trying to address it.

Since absolutely nothing is currently understood, there's apparently little hope that anything ever will be, no advisories or recommendations have been circulated by hang gliding professionals or officials or the FAA, and we've got scores of uppity hang glider pilots clouding and distorting the issues with their speculation and blatant insubordination it seems to me that any recommendation to do ANYTHING in response to this tragedy is totally irresponsible as it may and probably will be INCREASING the likelihood of a similar tragedy.

So just change or don't change some or all of your equipment and/or procedures however you please, don't advise anything to anybody else, and fly fly fly!

I'm glad that I did. It opened my eyes and a few others as well.

[Tad Eareckson]

Nice summation.

Thanks. These motherfuckers have made it SO EASY.

We're the experts, we know what we're doing, we've been perfecting this stuff for twenty years, come on down and fly, bring the kids, no, we have no idea why this hotshot skygod fell out of the air on a pleasant Saturday afternoon and died - but, don't worry, you probably won't.

They have totally painted themselves into a corner / are up to their necks in quicksand.

Options...

1. Admit the obvious and say that:
- one point towing is dangerous
- Rooney Links are dangerous
- the combination of the two with a bit of thermal mixed in is deadly
and fix the fuckin' problems.

2. Inexplicable freak accident. No idea how to address it. OK, who's up?

Downsides...

Option One:
- need to admit that:
-- you didn't have a fuckin' clue what you were doing or talking about the previous couple of decades
-- wack jobs like Tad DID have fuckin' clues what they were doing and talking about the previous couple of decades
-- you've crashed and killed people needlessly
- reveal yourselves to be incompetent liars and frauds
- open yourselves up to liability issues

Option Two:
- can no longer represent yourselves as responsible expert professionals who can instruct and take people for safe rides
- can't fix the problems because doing so would be admissions that you DID know what the problems were
- keep exposing yourselves, customers, and patrons to potentially deadly rides
- force yourselves to blatantly lie the rest of your careers and keep covering fundamental lies with other lies
- open yourselves up to HUGE liability issues and Sixty Minutes guest spots down the road

Gonna be fun to keep watching this Ponzi scheme.

Well said Tad.

Thanks. Was terrified we had lost you.

Lots of energy went into this.

Nearly a third of a century of entrenched Hewett based religious lunacy to gut and feed to the crows.

- You don't need an expensive controlled tension payout winch. Just use some of this nylon parachute cord as a towline. That's nice and stretchy so it'll do the same job.

- If you run this two to one pulley system bridle to the pilot and glider you can't lock out - the system's auto-correcting. So you really don't need a release you can blow with two hands on the basetube. Just take your hands off the basetube and the glider will come back by itself.

- You don't need a high quality, carefully maintained and inspected towline to keep you from popping off and whipstalling. Just use this little piece of fishing line. It'll pop before your nose can get high enough to permit the glider to stall.

- Still worried about locking out and having to take your hands off the basetube to release? Chill out, man. The fishing line ALSO pops you off at the first hint of a lockout. But really... With the Hewett Bridle lockouts really aren't problems.

Too bad the big dogs slept through it.

The BIG dogs are NOT sleeping through this. They're watching me like hawks.

- I say we need better, clearly defined, and strictly enforced equipment standards. - They change the word "Requirements" in the SOPs to "Guidelines".

- I bench test 130 pound Greenspot weak links and publish the data showing them to blow at 130 pounds. - They publish an article in the magazine declaring them to be 260 pounds and stating that bench tests are invalid because fishing line breaks at higher strengths at higher altitude.

- I develop releases that can blow the glider off tow with both hands on the basetube. - They teach people to stay straight behind the tug where it's impossible to lock out so you're fine with a brake lever on the downtube.

- I say light weak links can trigger lethal whipstalls. - They say they can be inconvenient, but never a concern with respect to stalls.

- I see Zack Marzec whipstall and tumble to his death and say toldyaso. - They delete all the equipment Guidelines from the SOPs.

I think I'll write a recommendation that tug pilots must be prohibited from drinking cyanide laced Kool-Aid prior to taxiing out to the flight line.

I'm glad that I did.

Ditto. We DESPERATELY need to keep these discussions alive.

It opened my eyes...

Not a very pretty sight, is it? You might want to close them for a while to give you a chance to properly acclimate.

...and a few others as well.

We make a little progress each time. On this one we managed to elevate Kinsley Sykes from totally fuckin' clueless to very confused and disturbed. If Davis hadn't locked the threads down there's a possibility that we could've brought him around - something I never before dreamt possible. I think after another fatal whipstall and a moderate amount of work we'll have him.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

Mike Lake - 2013/04/15 20:10:03 UTC

You're a pretty tolerant guy SlingBlade.

No more than any other red blooded American pilot who thrives on risk.

I don't think I would treat that incident quite so casually.

It takes a while to get used to doing things over here. But you eventually get used to shit like this - or get kicked out of the sport.

What if you had bought a new motorbike with a front brake that didn't work?
Would you be satisfied because after a few trips back & forth to the dealer (a dealer quite happy for you to test it) it was fixed and during that time there were no issues because you didn't have to make an emergency stop or go down any big hills?

Unfair comparison.

- Motorbikes have brake systems engineered and built into the vehicle - like our VG systems.

- Hang gliders have the release system designed by a fucking genius, velcroed onto the downtube, and left there until it acrues a long track record.

Some equipment including releases and side wires must work faultlessly out of the box.

Bullshit. You can't use a bent pin barrel release, Rooney Link, and hook knife to back up a sidewire that doesn't work.

A release is a bit of critical kit with few functions.
It is not THAT difficult to manufacture one that releases or doesn't release according to what the pilot wants and be as reliable as the brake on a new motorbike.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.

I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.

The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.

That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.

Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.

Don't you think that if it were really possible to manufacture something like that somebody would have by now and we'd all be using it already?

Tow pilots have enough on their plate with the stuff they have no control of without having to deal with stuff they do (or should) have control of.

The LAST thing the people who run these operations want the glider people to have is control of their situations.