Quest Friday, shoulder towing
Fuck you, Lauren.Lauren Tjaden - 2005/03/05 00:37:37 UTC
He was outclimbing you. Under right of way rules you're OBLIGATED to get the fuck out of his way.Today I experienced a lovely flight, a little 40 minute number to 3100, flown after 3 PM, when the thermals had lost some of their sharp edges. I was brave enough and smart enough not to run when other pilots came in on my tail. Once I got scared enough I let another pilot take my thermal, but I at least stayed on the outside of the circle and came back in after he got higher than I was, instead of punishing myself by marching off to another area in a huff.
I wonder just what it is that makes you think you've ever been entitled to any pride in this sport.When it's blue, you gotta give up your pride!
No doubt whatsoever. You've always been unparalleled in your abilities to get along with people. Unfortunately the sport has always been in desperate need of people skilled in demolishing assholes like you and the assholes you get along with so beautifully.Actually I am just learning a bit about how to fly politely in company.
Lemme tell ya sumpin', Lauren...Landing was interesting with many pilots plummeting from the sky at the same moment, complicated by a small, tempting -- but ultimately unworkable -- thermal, three to four hundred feet over the LZ. Ah, that is what the tug plane is for; you can always try again if it is too challenging and you are in danger pushing it.
Launching behind a tug is inherently dangerous - especially in thermal conditions and if you don't know what you're doing and are using crap equipment. And you don't know what you're doing and are using crap equipment. So you may wanna think about accepting a little more danger pushing things after a successful (not to be confused with safe) tow.
Nah Lauren...After landing, it was time to confront my third challenge for the last two weeks. The challenges were: (number 1) I had to go XC at least once, (number 2) try to get my 4, and (number 3, the one that I hadn't done) tow off my shoulders. It is amazing what a woosie I am.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3695
good day until the wreck
You're a real fighter. Get that glider foot landed no matter how unnecessary for the surface and regardless of the cost. People like you are inspirations to people like Shannon.Lauren Tjaden - 2008/12/31 04:29:12 UTC
very light conditions at quest. me, paul, dustin, carl and jamie were going to fly out and back but not high enough so we flew around the patch. i worked small lift using carl's tips...he is english where conditions are weak, and is 2nd in world.
came in with no wind after an hour and had right wing drop. instead of wrestling gilder straight i tried to flare while desperately trying to straighten.
bad bad whack. horrible pain, i could not move. screaming with pain, literally. took a very long time to get me out and to the hospital. got very good drugs.
turned out to be badly dislocated shoulder. they had to knock me out to put it back in but it was so bad i kept waking up and screaming. finally they got it done but then they had a hard time waking me back up. drugs were so wierd by the end i could not leave for hours, i'd just start bawling for no reason.
Did you read in the 2005/01 issue of the magazine Dennis Pagen's report on the fatality of a German one point aerotower and the near fatal one point aerotow Dennis experienced on a Texas competition round behind Neal Harris under nearly identical circumstances for nearly identical reasons. Shoulda got it in the mail two months and a few days ago. (Just kidding.)Worry worry worry but I was damned if I was going to put it off.
Yeah. REGULARLY.Zach and Paul explained that I couldn't jam the bar out in front of me like I do when I launch regularly...
You mean the way Zack Marzec got popped up and stalled, fell to the ground, writhed in pain, and then died in the ambulance after he towed shoulders only and his Lauren Link very clearly provided protection from an excessive angle of attack a wee bit over fifteen weeks ago at Quest?...that I might pop up and stall my glider (and fall to the ground and writhe in pain and then die)...
Did you ever try developing enough of a feel for glider response to get you to the point at which you could do stuff like PULL IN when the glider was high and/or slow - regardless of where the bar was in relation to your body?...but that I must allow myself to be pulled though the control frame a bit and then hold my arms rigid.
Zach kept saying, no, more forward, no, more than that, when I asked if my body was forward enough. Finally I just said, OK, I am launching. He said later my pitch was perfect but I was petrified for a couple of seconds wondering if I got it right.
All of us first wavers were introduced to aerotowing solo, foot launch, and one point behind tugs that needed to fly a lot faster than hang gliders - especially mid Eighties hang gliders - liked to fly. And I don't remember any of us worrying about or having to be told where to hold the fuckin' bar - we all just flew the fuckin' gliders.
And you're a goddam Four now. Well, you got Steve Kroop to sign your ticket anyway.
No shit.The tow was uneventful but the bar pressure was lots more, and I already fly with half VG so I don't feel I can increase it. It was harder to follow the plane when I got high on it.
Really? So if a particular mode of flying is more DIFFICULT wouldn't that also make it more DANGEROUS when the shit hits the fan?Zach pointed out later I could just stay a little low. Actually I think it will be fine since I am strong, but it will be more difficult to tow in midday conditions, because of the bar pressure.
What if you put all the crap IN your downtube?But I sure liked the clean configuration and it is much less drag. Really so much less crap hanging off my down tube.
My system was internal before Ridgely opened and bungee powered early in the 2001 season - which is well before you guys graced the hang gliding scene. And you're running your idiot mouth like it doesn't exist.
Fuck Paul. He's got no goddam business setting goals for anybody else while he's flying bent pin barrel releases and Rooney Links.So Paul just told me he has three more goals for my next two weeks. COOL! It is very constructive for me to have these things to aim for.
No thanks.Come see us soon.
Save it.Love
Lauren
Fuck you, Hugh.Hugh McElrath - 2005/03/05 02:24:13 UTC
2005/02Lauren,
I just read something in the USHGA mag about towing configurations...
Aerotow Release Attachment Points for Wills Wing Gliders
Rob Kells
http://www.willswing.com/articles/Article.asp?reqArticleName=AerotowRelease
HE mentioned lockout ONCE:...and they mentioned greater risk of a lockout when towing from the shoulders.
And that's bullshit 'cause lockouts - by definition - are IMPOSSIBLE to correct.Towing without a top release will cause the base tube to be positioned much further back during tow, the glider will have increased pitch pressure, and lockouts are much more difficult to correct.
Who gives a flying fuck? The folk down there are all total assholes.What do the folks down there say?
No matter how you tow - two point or one - ALL the force is on the glider. If you don't believe me try towing one point with a rig to cut through your suspension when you get to a couple hundred feet. The person under the glider isn't providing enough resistance to tow tension to be worth mentioning.Lauren Tjaden - 2005/03/05 13:25:42 UTC
My understand is that since all the tow forces are on you (when towing from the shoulders), not you and your glider combined...
If it's a LOCKOUT it's IMPOSSIBLE to recover. See above....that in a lockout it might be more difficult to recover...
Bullshit....since your shoulders will be pulled in the direction of the plane more strongly...
- If you're competent to be pulled behind a tug the only thing that can lock you out is a thermal blast.
- If you get blasted sufficiently there's not a goddam thing you're gonna be able to do to prevent a lockout. Just try not to be low when it happens and equip yourself so that YOU - not your fucking fishing line - can effect a separation in time to limit the altitude loss to something survivable.
- Fuck your experience. Tell me why you need ANY "experience" to understand these issues....(someone please correct me if I am wrong, since I have limited experience with this, to say the least).
- Why the hell wasn't this covered in ground school? How come we've got total idiots soliciting opinions from other total idiots?
Oh REALLY!!!Also, the bar position is further back so you have less leverage to push it back into position than if it was further ahead of you.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png
So you're saying that if you were ever in a situation in which your life was dependent upon getting the bar fully stuffed you just might be shit outta luck.
Like maybe if you were towing out of Quest with a Quest Link to very clearly provide protection from an excessive angle of attack and got blasted by a monster thermal at 150 feet you might not be able to hold your nose down...
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg
...to a survivable attitude?
Yep...On the plus side, you have less drag and less hassle in the air stowing your tow bridle.
http://ozreport.com/goodies.php
It is small and easily stored. If you can't store it during flight, it is the most aerodynamic one available. The bridle is thin and gets out of your way right away. Easily stored. Also creates less drag if you don't put it away.Oz Report's Useful Goodies
Pro tow Mini Barrel Release and 750 lb bridle, $40.
If you want two mini barrel releases (one on each side), order two of these (you'll have an extra bridle). Bridle is 750 pound Spectra.
This release won't accidently open by hitting your base tube, if you connect it to your chest tabs. It is small and easily stored. If you can't store it during flight, it is the most aerodynamic one available. The bridle is thin and gets out of your way right away. Easily stored. Also creates less drag if you don't put it away. Much stronger than your weaklink. I change bridles about once a year after about fifty tows. I switch the ends after twenty five tows.
And you have no idea just how much I value the FEELINGS of some stupid twit with a grand total of a single one point tow in sled conditions who has no ability to learn a single goddam thing from relevant and recent fatality reports.I also feel it may be easier to pin off in case of a lockout...
"I'm SO SORRY about running over those kids on the sidewalk while I was texting about dinner plans. But as you can plainly see, officer, the steering wheel WAS very close to my center of gravity at all times."...because you have a bailey (for me, two of them, one on each side) and they are much closer to your center of gravity.
"Obviously ma'am. There was nothing you could've done to prevent this bit of unpleasantness. Here's your license and registration. Have a good day."
No shit, Lauren.Reaching that handle way out to the side can be challenging in a hard turn.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!
If you read a few fatality reports...Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less)...
...you might even get the impression that reaching that handle way out to the side can be totally defeating when you really need to be flying the fucking glider. But that's not gonna deter you one tiny little bit from configuring like that for you and your passengers.Joe Gregor - 2004/09
There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.
Yeah...The bailey is right there.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link
Right. And if you can fight a lockout with one hand just as effectively as you can with two hands that's plenty good enough.Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC
I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
Meaning the opinions of the assholes who have the most experience trying to swat downtube mounted Quallaby release levers and grab shoulder mounted bent pin release barrels.I would welcome hearing more expert opinions, as well.
I got news for ya, Lauren. There are two groups of people whose opinions you really wanna be paying attention to...
- There's a VERY long list of people who ain't around no more 'cause their release actuators were on their downtubes or near their centers of gravity. But they ain't around no more so you'll just hafta guess about their opinions were or became two seconds prior to impact.
- Then there are a very few people with functional brains who don't give flying fucks about experts and their goddam opinions 'cause they have common sense going for them and can do the freakin' math. And some of this group have done the freakin' math and the engineering to mitigate or eliminate some of the problems.
But you're not really interested in learning anything from those groups. You're just interested in hanging out with the Kool Kids and engaging in the same useless idiot conversations we've been listening to for decades.
Fuck you, Hugh.Hugh McElrath - 2005/03/05 16:10:16 UTC
Lauren "thinking". Right.Hmmm... thanks for the thoughtful reply.
After...Since I don't use a bicycle brake handle but a loop around my palm, I have even less problem pinning off than with a bailey (which I have for backup).
4:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC1yrdDV4sI
...the third or fourth pull anyway.
But that's really not all that much of an advantage because if it were:That may actually be the tie-breaker for me: right now, I can pin off without removing my hand from its position on the base tube.
- the SOPS would make such a configuration mandatory
- Ridgely would have the equipment available for sale
- it would be mentioned in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden
Those couldn't possibly be significant issues. Bailey's have been Industry Standard equipment for a quarter century and if there were a significantly better solution we'd all be using it already.Towing from the shoulders I would have to find one of two bailey's possibly with a gloved hand (have to look down with the chin guard of my helmet in the way, too).
And everybody DO make sure to totally ignore the development Steve Kinsley's gonna announce...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=233
AT releases
...six days from the beginning and three days from the conclusion of this idiot discussion.Steve Kinsley - 2005/03/11 02:43:09 UTC
Winter boredom and the Oz Report (Robin Strid - 2005/01/09) resulted in my invention of "the squid" AT shoulder release. This is a two ring (or 3 - haven't decided which is better) where the final loop runs through a grommet and you hold it in your teeth. Want off? Open your mouth. When you are a hundred feet up and presumably out of danger you slide a barrel (the body of the squid) over the loop which crimps it at the grommet and you have a standard barrel release. I can hold on with my teeth all the way and not use the slider/keeper but gotta be sure I have fresh polident.
Tried it at Manquin and down in Florida. Seems to work fine. (Flew with a standard barrel on the other side just in case.) Also gets a lot of laughs. Show it to you.
Which convenience is more likely to get you killed:Roger the hassle of retrieving the tow bridle...
- skipping the preflight checks before you plop your glider on the dolly?
- flying with a one point bridle?
Here's an idea for that one, Hugh. Let Tad spend a couple of weeks custom building a top notch two point system into your U2, don't get around to paying him for so much as materials, then let him get a "two month suspension" for battling and demolishing Rooney and his adoring zombies on the forum....and the drag of the release.
Don't worry about it. Just focus a bit more on paragliding.Decisions, decisions...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4829
Daniels 4/18 and/or 4/19
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4830Ann Dunlap - 2011/04/18 23:23:27 UTC
uplandann - Harrisonburg
Will post a more detailed report later. Hugh suffered a broken leg as he was landing his PG in the main LZ. sometime around 2pm. The wind velocity was not an issue at all as it was SSE at about 5mph at the LZ. I watched his landing as far as I could until his glider was obscured by the hill, and then heard him hit the ground hard.
I reminded him to lay still. I called 911 and the ambulance arrived very shortly. He was airlifted to UVA shortly after.
He was conscious and very calm and coherent the whole time. I spoke with his wife Sallie to let her know what happened and where he is.
Send your prayers for his speedy recovery.
Hugh
Hugh McElrath - 2011/04/20 01:07:27 UTC
I was observing Ann Dunlap on hang gliding yesterday at Daniels. She had her first soaring flight! I launched my paraglider after she landed. Had a good flight, got to 600 over.Came out to land after 25 minutes. LZ was light but not scary. At 20 feet the glider surged in front of me and I pounded in hard. I broke both legs at boot top with open fracture of tibia on right.Broke right wrist and shattered L1 vertebra. Ann handled the emergency superbly. ER squad immediately ordered a helicopter. I am in UVA hospital. Nine hours to reconstruct vertebra and reduce open fracture. Just had filter installed in vena cava to prevent blood clots from invading lungs. Further surgeries coming for both legs and wrist. I can wiggle my toes!! Thanks for all the good wishes - Hugh (scribe -Sallie)
Fuck you, Brian.Brian Vant-Hull - 2005/03/05 17:11:22 UTC
No you haven't. You've used your BACKUP release after your Lockout primary remained welded shut despite your best efforts - which is why Ridgely stopped selling Lockout primaries.You have the secondary release in conventional towing anyway (yes, I've used it)...
The math on this one ain't all that tough, Brian....and not that much more to stow, though I may be wrong.
When everyone's flying with Rooney Links why bother with ANY safety issues?I guess for competition you may worry about a little extra drag, but otherwise why bother with the extra safety issues?
Fuck you, Paul.Paul Adamez - 2005/03/05 18:20:47 UTC
Glen Burnie, Maryland
The spinnaker shackle doesn't fail. The Industry Standard actuation "system" does.My biggest concern with the V bridle is if my Spinniker release fails...
If you pull it while the top end is connected it's a primary....and I use my secondary...
Well that's just YOUR concern. I'm sure that if that were an ACTUAL issue The Industry would be making everyone aware of it and providing primary systems which didn't fail so frequently that it's not even worthy of mention when they do....and the bridle gets hung up on the caribiner on the end of the tow line. Now I am being towed straight from the hang loops, or keel, with no way of releasing, in a very bad tow configuration. Not good.
If you get too far out of whack...I've been giving thought about going with the Pro Tow, especially with all the discussion on the OZ Report, but am concerned too about any increased lock out tendencies with this method. With the Pro Tow I may be more apt to release sooner if I get too out of wack...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap
...your weak link will blow.Lauren Tjaden - 2011/08/01 02:01:06 UTC
For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.
Bull fucking shit. Everybody and his goddam dog knows EXACTLY the instant a tow becomes unsustainable. Everything else is equipment and reaction time. And the former is something people can actually do something about - but virtually never actually bother to. It's just so much easier to hope:...and not try to wrestle with the situation, which may be a good thing.
- nothing bad will happen down low
- if something bad happens down low the Rooney Link:
-- will increase the safety of the towing operation
-- won't decrease the safety of the towing operation
Fuck you, Jim.Jim Rooney - 2005/03/08 03:41:20 UTC
Nowhere near the quality of Dr. Trisa Tilletti's fourteen page article on weak links in the 2012/06 issue, was it? (I'm guessing you were totally satisfied with that one 'cause I didn't hear you objecting to anything said or omitted.)There's a bit of a distinction to note here. One that is not mentioned in the USHGA article.
Or what Rob refers to as...There are two ways to use a 3 point towing system.
...a TWO point system.Towing from only the shoulder attachments without a top release is generally referred to as "Pro tow". The Sport 2, U2s and Talons may be "Pro towed" without a top release, however this method is not as easy as using a two point release as described above.
Undoubtedly.The top towpoint can either be on the keel or on your carabiner. The differnece between these is important.
Yeah?The method described in the magazine is a keel mount.
Bullshit.U2 145, 160
- On pilot's hang loop or carabiner - Set VG to 1/2
Talon 140, 150, 160
- On pilot's hang loop or carabiner - Set VG to 1/2
Note: The higher the top tow point the better. If the glider is equipped with a DHV (longer than Wills Wing standard length by 8 inches) it is better to tie the release to the keel rather than attach it to the hang loop.
Bullshit. You put a sideways pull on a glider it trims accordingly. It rolls opposite.Since the tow forces act both on the CG and the glider, your gliders nose gets pulled through turns.
No shit. Who do you think needs to be told that?You can also reduce pitch preassure by moving the tow point further up the keel.
Right. All the forces go to the "CG" and stop there. It's not like the glider feels any tension transmitted through the suspension.Towing off the carabiner is very different in that all tow forces act on the CG.
Bullshit. It's a smooth gradient - from just above the pilot to the carabiner to the top of the suspension to as far forward on the keel as it's advisable to go.The important distinction here is that it will "feel" like towing off the keel, but it acts like towing off the shoulders.
Bullshit. Physics is way out of your league. Stay the fuck out of it.It feels like towing off the keel because your bar position is similar and the tow force is split between you and your hang strap. This is different from keel towing since the other half of that tow force is not acting on the glider.
And I notice you don't have any problem with the concept of a lockout being CORRECTABLE.The comment in the magazine is that the pro tow method makes lockouts harder to correct.
Bullshit.This is in no small part due to the tow forces in a keel tow setup are trying to pull your nose out of a lockout.
Bullshit.This is not true in a carabiner tow setup.
It's transmitted through your harness and suspension. That doesn't mean you feel it. What feels it is the glider. And the glider always feels one hundred percent of it. And it always knows exactly how much and from what direction and reacts accordingly.The difference between the carabiner tow and a two point shoulder tow is that the tow force is no longer split. You get it all. This changes your bar position and you feel all the tow force.
All tow forces are routed to the keel no matter what you do.This is not pitch preassure, just pulling preassure. The difference in how your glider flies is none. All tow forces are still routed through the CG.
- Bullshit. There's no tendency for the glider to tumble until the attachment keel point is moved forward from the hang point.Something of note between the keel tow and carabiner tow... in the rare event of becoming stuck on the top towpoint only (primary fails to release, secondary releases the shoulders but not the bridal), the carabiner tow will still be pulling of the CG if you're towing off the carabiner, the keel tow will be trying to tumble you.
- The higher above the pilot the more he's fucked control-wise.
- There's no need or excuse for flying with a primary that has the slightest probability of failure. That issue is one hundred percent preventable.
Bullshit. There's a right way to do this and a whole shitload of shoddy and dangerous compromises. And any "advantages" accrued from going suboptimal are so negligible they don't merit discussion.In the end, it's all a matter of tradeoffs.
None of the crap YOU Industry motherfuckers makes available is failsafe. But towing equipment has been engineered to the point at which posts about it would be as rare as posts on problems with VG systems.None of the systems are failsafe and each has its stronger and weaker points.
Fuck you and your two cents. And I'll really be looking forward to your unhooked launch a couple weeks shy of a year from now - Mister Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney.$.02USD
Jim
