I could be a lot more forgiving of Majo's instructor. I'm guessing he doesn't feel great about what happened and recognizes the mistakes he made and won't be repeating them. And it's a good bet that he didn't get on a forum to dump on the pilot and defend what he did and push it as Standard Operating Procedure.
Compare/Contrast with Quest, Davis, Rooney, Trisa, USHGA... Freak accident, no way of knowing what really happened, the whole business about using a weak link only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding, back to business as usual.
Serious negligence on maybe just one flight resulting in very serious but non career ending injuries versus deliberate cold-blooded calculated endless serial killing - not to mention the continued vicious attacks on everyone in the emperor-has-no-clothes crowd.
instructors and other qualified pilot fiends
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Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 9161
- Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 9161
- Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC
Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends
Oops.
http://mydreamsmypassions.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/warrior-spirit/
Warrior Spirit | My dreams, my passions
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30128
The history of my accident learning to fly
Anyway... Still not a fan of gut based aviation decisions. One shouldn't be scrubbing a flight because of gut feelings. One should be scrubbing it because it's blowing fifteen ninety degrees cross from the left and there are a bunch of posts ninety degrees cross to the right.
In this case the gut feeling was a symptom of the launch conditions. Cut out the middleman. You can't and won't learn anything useful from that strategy.
It's total fucking lunacy to tell people to research the schools/instructors and choose wisely. If they were capable of choosing wisely they wouldn't need schools/instructors.
And by the way, Jack...
Your 35 year hang gliding career ended sixteen days ago. You don't fly anymore so you're now an armchair/keyboard pilot and your advice now means absolutely NOTHING. Majo's an active pilot so it's actually YOU who should be taking advice from HER.
And it's not like you launched unhooked, stalled into the ground after a Rooney Link pop, or snapped an arm or two on a late flare and are in a six month recovery period before you can fly again. In any of those cases your advice would be much more valuable than folk who hadn't recently piled in. No, you've just decided to hang it up on your own terms - so shut the fuck up and stop using bandwidth that Paul Hurless could put to excellent use.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Totally sucked cause I didn't demolish myself prior to the discussion?
- lifting and trimming the glider in pitch and roll prior to launch
- a hook-in check which all you motherfuckers absolutely refuse to do
- acceleration down the ramp/slope while trying to control the glider and adjust the trim while upright with hands on the downtubes
- rotating to prone, kicking into the harness, transitioning hands to the basetube before optimal control is attainable
All that shit disappears with the machinery you add to safely pull a glider off a dolly or blast it into the air off a platform.
And lemme tell ya sumpin' else... One of the best performing soaring birds on the planet notoriously sucks at foot landings and would take wheels in a New York minute if that option were available.
- Towing Aloft?
- Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots?
- Hang Gliding For Beginner Pilots?
- Dr. Trisa Tilletti's "Higher Education" series of magazine articles?
How much stupider were you when you finished?
0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus
THIS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfidzEZt2mE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_iXlVKrE-w
is about as complex as one can possibly get - and also about as safe as one can possibly get.
Unless, that is...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul5l0NmcAuo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u51qpPLz5U0
07-0913
11-1118
http://vimeo.com/17743952
password - red
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/435/19224482318_2da3f48afe_o.png
How 'bout Zack Marzec? Think he'd have independently concluded that a loop of 130 pound fishing line would be the perfect string to put on his bridle to increase the safety of his towing operation and keep him from getting into too much trouble?
Felix is getting that crap from her blog:Tad Eareckson - 2013/10/17 00:12:47 UTC
Where are you getting this crap?
http://mydreamsmypassions.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/warrior-spirit/
Warrior Spirit | My dreams, my passions
Should've checked it but got a bit disorganized/distracted because it was...Majo Gularte - 2013/10/16
After midday and having flown several times on trike with our instructor, we continue training... I think everything pointed to we should not continue, but no one paid any attention to the signs, not even me, I was just a student eager to fly.
It was my second tow of the day, I had my doubts to take off, something told me I shouldn't, when I mentioned my insecurity, my instructor told me: it's nothing! Don't worry, go...!
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30128
The history of my accident learning to fly
...coming up mostly empty over the course of a bunch of early attempts.Christopher Albers - 2013/10/16 12:21:55 UTC
I couldn't get much of anything on that page to load, pictures or text. All I got was the homepage with small paragraph. Anyone else have that problem?
Anyway... Still not a fan of gut based aviation decisions. One shouldn't be scrubbing a flight because of gut feelings. One should be scrubbing it because it's blowing fifteen ninety degrees cross from the left and there are a bunch of posts ninety degrees cross to the right.
In this case the gut feeling was a symptom of the launch conditions. Cut out the middleman. You can't and won't learn anything useful from that strategy.
Careful, Majo. Any time you're finding yourself in alignment with that total fucking asshole there should be some alarm bells going off.2013/10/16 15:21:14 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jim Gaar
2013/10/16 17:52:56 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Majo Gularte
It's not.Jack Barth - 2013/10/16 15:35:54 UTC
Dreams
I once had the same Dream as you. Really I had dreams of flying high above others when I was young. Fortunately I made it through training without incident.
I had two young babies to consider and probably shouldn't have chased the dream, but I did. After 35yrs I look back and reflect how satisfied the experience has been. I'm sorry your attempt to fly like a bird went wrong. You provide inspiration by continuing your quest for freedom of flight. Glad your recovery is complete.
Who are you recommending? Schools/Instructors are all really great at teaching what they're really great at teaching. Ridgely teaches one way to hide the knot in a loop of 130 pound Greenspot so that it breaks consistently at 260 pounds, Cloud 9 teaches another way to hide the knot in a loop of 130 pound Greenspot so that it breaks consistently at 260 pounds. They're both totally full of shit on multiple levels and their graduates will all sing the highest praises of their abilities to teach people how to hide the knot in a loop of 130 pound Greenspot so that it breaks consistently at 260 pounds.I think a lesson you provide for newbies is research the schools/instructors and choose wisely.
It's total fucking lunacy to tell people to research the schools/instructors and choose wisely. If they were capable of choosing wisely they wouldn't need schools/instructors.
Yeah, that's almost as important as choosing your school/instructor wisely.I would also say to listen to your heart...
What were the hearts of Mark Frutiger and Zack Marzec telling them when the former was blasted up in that monster thermal? How 'bout John Woiwode's, Chris Muller's, Eric Mies's? You start looking at the sport's major catastrophes and typically the statistic is having a super day and is feeling just fine two seconds before the horror starts kicking in. Lotsa times if people had been feeling anything the least bit amiss they wouldn't keep doing what they were doing....but mine told me not to fly several times during my training.
Yeah? Well human aviation is no way in hell a natural thing - especially for someone at the level Majo is.It's a natural thing.
Some more.Found the video after writing this and things were put into perspective. Again very glad you've healed and thanks for sharing.
Fly Safe and Enjoy
And by the way, Jack...
Your 35 year hang gliding career ended sixteen days ago. You don't fly anymore so you're now an armchair/keyboard pilot and your advice now means absolutely NOTHING. Majo's an active pilot so it's actually YOU who should be taking advice from HER.
And it's not like you launched unhooked, stalled into the ground after a Rooney Link pop, or snapped an arm or two on a late flare and are in a six month recovery period before you can fly again. In any of those cases your advice would be much more valuable than folk who hadn't recently piled in. No, you've just decided to hang it up on your own terms - so shut the fuck up and stop using bandwidth that Paul Hurless could put to excellent use.
Yeah. Too bad this is hang gliding instead of Afghanistan.piano_man - 2013/10/16 15:42:28 UTC
Georgia
You are a true warrior.
So what did you think of my "Aerotow release options?" thread?That video clip was heart wrenching. It's great that you've been able to recover, put it behind you and share it with the rest of us.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Totally sucked cause I didn't demolish myself prior to the discussion?
It is. So why was she foot launch towing? No fuckin' way that would've happened if she'd been dolly launching.Remember towing is not the only way to get airborne and I would consider towing on foot a pretty advanced skill.
Super. Davis prefers "pro towing" over "three point" and is happy to have a relatively weak weak link - never having had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.I've towed but learned and prefer to foot launch off of the mountain.
Bullshit. In a mountain launch there's:Less components to the launch sequence...
- lifting and trimming the glider in pitch and roll prior to launch
- a hook-in check which all you motherfuckers absolutely refuse to do
- acceleration down the ramp/slope while trying to control the glider and adjust the trim while upright with hands on the downtubes
- rotating to prone, kicking into the harness, transitioning hands to the basetube before optimal control is attainable
All that shit disappears with the machinery you add to safely pull a glider off a dolly or blast it into the air off a platform.
Right. After the bird drives his four-wheeler to and up the mountain, hikes his wings to the setup area, stuffs the quills, wiggles into his body coating, and gets a couple of other birds to keep his wings under control in the breeze. What a load of crap....plus it's more like how a bird flies "take off and land on your feet".
And lemme tell ya sumpin' else... One of the best performing soaring birds on the planet notoriously sucks at foot landings and would take wheels in a New York minute if that option were available.
I got my signoff after doing no tandems with him - or anyone else.Now that I haven't towed in seven years or so I am wanting to get back to it. I got my sign off from Malcolm at Wallaby after doing one tandem with him.
What did you read?I read up a bit...
- Towing Aloft?
- Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots?
- Hang Gliding For Beginner Pilots?
- Dr. Trisa Tilletti's "Higher Education" series of magazine articles?
How much stupider were you when you finished?
Did you watch any videos like this:...and hung out a couple of days to observe the towing operation before my first tow...
0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus
So you're now probably at least as well qualified to deal with a Zack Marzec scenario as Zack Marzec was....but having a few hundred mountain flights - in large part - enabled me to be signed off for aero tow after just one flight.
Good idea. Let's throw her off a mountain now.Majo, get this book (Training Manual) if you don't have it already - see link below. Consider learning to foot launch - Mountain Launch - first.
Fuck what you or anyone BELIEVES. It's a no brainer that when somebody starts off a sentence about hang gliding with "I believe..." or "In my opinion..." he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about and is probably dead wrong.I believe...
She WAS foot launching - that's largely what got her demolished....it's simpler and therefore safer and in the big picture MUCH better to learn how to foot launch as your first skill.
THIS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfidzEZt2mE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_iXlVKrE-w
is about as complex as one can possibly get - and also about as safe as one can possibly get.
Unless, that is...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul5l0NmcAuo
In aviation convenience is a synonym for lower fatality rates. And unless the designer is a total moron (think Peter Birren, two to one bridle, apex release, infallible weak link, Pitch and Lockout Limiter) system complexity ALWAYS reduces demands on the pilot. Try taking the dollies out of an aerotow operation and watching twenty launches.Towing Aloft - 1998/01
The more convenient the tow system, the more complicated it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u51qpPLz5U0
07-0913
11-1118
http://vimeo.com/17743952
password - red
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/435/19224482318_2da3f48afe_o.png
Bullshit. Even the way Steve Wendt does things with his scooter tow approach required skills are pretty close to minimal.Then add towing and other skills.
Yes.After you're a mountain pilot then go to Wallaby and get your AT sign-off. It's just my opinion...
Did you read Wallaby's Aerotow Primer? Did it make sense?...but that's how I did it and I wouldn't change a thing.
She sure kicks Brian Horgan's ass.btw, your English is superb.
It'll be crap.piano_man - 2013/10/16 15:54:09 UTC
Just to be clear, you will still need a good school/instructor to be your coach and mentor in learning how to fly a hang glider safely. The book will serve as a useful tool to help speed things up a bit and perhaps deepen your knowledge.
Then start making lists of all the flat out contradictions.Just like any course you may take at a school, there's the book the teacher and the classroom. Get the book, read it, read it again.
Bill Priday found the one individual who all you Jack and Davis Show assholes agree is God's gift to hang gliding instruction. How much deader could he possibly be if he'd acquired all the equipment he needed and taught himself totally isolated from hang gliding culture?Find a good instructor and fly.
How 'bout Zack Marzec? Think he'd have independently concluded that a loop of 130 pound fishing line would be the perfect string to put on his bridle to increase the safety of his towing operation and keep him from getting into too much trouble?
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 9161
- Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC
Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30128
The history of my accident learning to fly
...by such ample voluptuous breasts - but that goes without saying. That's why every man on The Jack Show contacted you, conveyed his position, and authorized you to speak on his behalf.
The sentiments from the women among "us" were a bit more mixed - although the returns were equally positively unanimous amongst the lesbian contingent.
But, what the fuck, The Jack Show is a "band of BROTHERS" so who really gives a rat's ass?
Asshole.
The history of my accident learning to fly
And, of course...Dan Johnson - 2013/10/16 17:34:57 UTC
There is not a man among us that isn't touched by such a tremendous heart!
...by such ample voluptuous breasts - but that goes without saying. That's why every man on The Jack Show contacted you, conveyed his position, and authorized you to speak on his behalf.
The sentiments from the women among "us" were a bit more mixed - although the returns were equally positively unanimous amongst the lesbian contingent.
But, what the fuck, The Jack Show is a "band of BROTHERS" so who really gives a rat's ass?
California? That's the state where YOU live, right Dan? San Andreas isn't it? The epicenter of California's big tectonic cleavage issue?It's not only possible, but probable! Just let us know! You may want to consider foot launch training in California.
Do you have some particular place in mind? Maybe you could meet her down there and walk her through some of the ropes.I do not know of many Spanish language teachers here, but what about South America?
Asshole.
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Steve Davy
- Posts: 1338
- Joined: 2011/07/18 10:37:38 UTC
Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends
So could I, but I'm not very forgiving when it comes to stuff this stupid. Majo's crash is the most insanely moronic hang glider crash I've ever seen, and I hold her instructor one hundred percent responsible.Tad Eareckson wrote:I could be a lot more forgiving of Majo's instructor.
1. What happened? Are you kidding me?I'm guessing he doesn't feel great about what happened...
2. Good. I hope it haunts him for the rest of his life.
That total shit for brains shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a hang glider ever again....and recognizes the mistakes he made and won't be repeating them.
I'm not comparing her crash with anything else, just looking at it for what it is, and that's way off the scale stupidity.Compare/Contrast with...
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Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 9161
- Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC
Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends
Doesn't hold a candle to Zack Marzec's - especially when you consider that it would be a cold day in Hell before Majo's operation would set somebody up like that again while Quest and its untold scores of clones and clonelets continued throwing pro toads back up on standard aerotow weak links into monster thermal / dust devil potential air without interruption.Majo's crash is the most insanely moronic hang glider crash I've ever seen...
No more than one percent disagreement there....and I hold her instructor one hundred percent responsible.
OK. What happened as a direct consequence of their multiple and massive pooch screws.1. What happened? Are you kidding me?
If he's a person with any decency it will. If he's a Rooney caliber piece o' shit it was forgotten before the sirens faded from earshot.2. Good. I hope it haunts him for the rest of his life.
Maybe. But basing things only on what we know he's so far down the list from scum like:That total shit for brains shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a hang glider ever again.
http://www.rmhpa.org/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4258
HG accident in Vancouver
And...Tom Galvin - 2012/10/31 22:17:21 UTC
I teach hook-in checks. I don't teach lift and tug, as it gives a false sense of security.
...remember the monumental amount work that Bob put in to sabotage every single fix I attempted to implement?Steve Davy - 2012/07/12 00:54:02 UTC
You've got Terry's blood on your hands Bob, I hope you rot in Hell.
Yeah...I'm not comparing her crash with anything else...
...you are.Majo's crash is the most insanely moronic hang glider crash I've ever seen...
Welcome to hang gliding....just looking at it for what it is, and that's way off the scale stupidity.
Majo's coming back into the sport. This Matt Taber victim:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545
Cart stuck incidents
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18777Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC
I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.
Accident - Broken Jaw - Full Face HG Helmet
isn't. Neither is this:Keith Skiles - 2010/08/28 05:20:01 UTC
Last year, at LMFP I saw an incident in aerotow that resulted in a very significant impact with the ground on the chest and face. Resulted in a jaw broken in several places and IIRC some tears in the shoulder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM
Mark Knight casualty.
Majo's perpetrator isn't - as far as we know - evil. He didn't deliberately dial in a fifteen mile per hour crosswind and set the posts within striking range.
I'd have Mark Knight banned from being anywhere near a hang glider for life and fuckin' Matt Taber SO deserves to be stood up in front of a wall.
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Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 9161
- Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC
Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends
http://ozreport.com/17.208
Bad instructor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM
shows what an OUTSTANDING instructor Mark Knight is - always making sure that his students know to use a standard weak link like we would for aerotow (in this particular case it's 130 greenline, 130 pound test) - but how crappy this student is in properly managing the inconvenience which is the byproduct of the resulting increase in the safety of the towing operation.
So Davis... What's THIS:
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1149
Team Challenge: Daily Update Thread
Oh, right...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17820
Launching unhooked with scooter tow
http://ozreport.com/forum/files/copy_2_of_imgp1239_197.jpg
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7220/13949046702_ccfa0fafab_o.png
http://www.thekiteboarder.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/opener-532x800.jpg
...most of the time so teaching hook-in checks would just be a distraction...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18695
How could this accident happen?
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=587
Holly's Accident
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30912
Death at Quest Air
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30128
The history of my accident learning to fly
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1166
Thoughts on responsibility...
- How 'bout a well groomed grass strip?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3725/9665623251_612b921d70_o.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG
Wouldn't it be better to have a few trees around if you're gonna be whipstalling and locking out pro toads on regular bases? A lot of people have survived some pretty nasty falls...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbaNQO4AXng
...that were arrested by them.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?
http://www.willswing.com/articles/Article.asp?reqArticleName=scooter
Scooter Towing, an Easy Way To Learn To FLY!
But, I guess all you professional pilots...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
054-03623
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2925/14422539820_074cff03b7_o.png
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTKIAvqd7GI
0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27yFcEMpfMk
10-2017
11-2201
12-2303
15-2421
...be safely done in?
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26429
Pro Tow vs Three Point
- Oh. That's your FEELING. Over forty thousand tows now and we're still going by your FEELINGS. You just have a FEELING that Majo would've been better off with a portion of the tow force pulling the nose down. But who really knows for sure?
- And after TRAINING people can go just to the pilot because their responses will be fast and decisive enough to keep things under control just fine. So Zack Marzec wouldn't have been any better off with a two point bridle...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26429
Pro Tow vs Three Point
Bad instructor
Whereas THIS video:Davis Straub - 2013/10/18 16:32:36 UTC
Breaking both arms (Salama, Baja Verapaz, Guatemala)
http://mydreamsmypassions.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/warrior-spirit/
Warrior Spirit | My dreams, my passions
The video accompanying the article shows just how bad the instruction was.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIHfVnuNX0Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM
shows what an OUTSTANDING instructor Mark Knight is - always making sure that his students know to use a standard weak link like we would for aerotow (in this particular case it's 130 greenline, 130 pound test) - but how crappy this student is in properly managing the inconvenience which is the byproduct of the resulting increase in the safety of the towing operation.
So Davis... What's THIS:
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1149
Team Challenge: Daily Update Thread
say about the quality of the instruction?Holly Korzilius - 2005/10/01 18:19:55 UTC
Incident at 2005 Team Challenge
I don't have many details at this point, but I just got a call from Scott Wilkinson. Bill Priday launched from Whitwell without hooking in. Scott indicated there was about a hundred foot drop off from launch. Bill's status is unknown at this time. Please pray for him!
I will provide updates as I get them from Scott.
Oh, right...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17820
Launching unhooked with scooter tow
This is tow instruction and unhooked launches on flat ground tend not to be big fucking deals...Davis Straub - 2009/11/11 14:57:45 UTC
You land in the sand on your stomach
http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3729/13148945555_cea849a8eb_o.png
What happens when you try to launch unhooked when scooter towing? Not much. Apparently in this case the tow instructor didn't notice that the student was not hooked in, even though the instructor was using a turn around pulley and was sitting on the scooter next to the student.
http://ozreport.com/forum/files/copy_2_of_imgp1239_197.jpg
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7220/13949046702_ccfa0fafab_o.png
http://www.thekiteboarder.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/opener-532x800.jpg
...most of the time so teaching hook-in checks would just be a distraction...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18695
How could this accident happen?
...from the really important stuff like flare timing.Davis Straub - 2010/01/28 06:10:17 UTC
I have tried to launch unhooked on aerotow and scooter tow.
Steve Wendt <<blueskyhg>> writes:
But after you've signed them off on their Threes...What a shame. It breaks my heart to see students going through this type of trauma.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=587
Holly's Accident
...it's not so bad.Scott Wilkinson - 2005/05/30 03:16:49 UTC
From what Steve told me, she experienced oscillations shortly after takeoff which quickly became severe. At an altitude somewhere between fifty and a hundred feet (We don't know for sure) there was a lockout situation with the glider at a near ninety degree angle. When a line broke (I don't know which one), Holly's glider recoiled backwards, almost fully inverted, then partially recovered in a dive toward the ground.
Steve saw Holly pulling in for speed. He speculated had she been ten to twenty feet higher, she might have made it... and ten to twenty feet lower, she could have died. Whatever the case, she hit the ground hard at something less than a vertical angle. Her Charly Insider full-face helmet was broken through in two places (the chin and next to her eye), and Steve believes the breaks absorbed some of the impact and probably saved her life.
Really? You don't need to see her foot launching with her hands on the downtubes instead of prone off a dolly with her hands on the basetube? Don't you launch all your truck and aero tows with platforms and dollies with the pilots prone and their hands on the basetube? Isn't that a lot easier/safer?Just seeing the trees in the background shaking is all I need to know and see.
But she'd have been just as fucked - probably even more - coming off a dolly, right?It was way too windy to scooter tow train.
What about your advanced students and regulars? Will you allow them to fly in conditions like THESE:I wouldn't allow students to fly in those conditions.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30912
Death at Quest Air
Paul Tjaden - 2008/04/12 12:40:28 UTC
Weather conditions were very benign with light winds and blue skies and the glider was in good airworthy condition.
- NO SHIT. Lemme write that down.Also, the training environment isn't a safe one if that is even possible. You can't train students with fences and poles anywhere near where a student could possibly go.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30128
The history of my accident learning to fly
Any more words of wisdom we muppets can take away from your expert analysis here?Brad Barkley - 2013/10/16 13:38:11 UTC
There you can take scooter tow lessons with Steve Wendt, who is acknowledged as the master of the scooter tow method.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1166
Thoughts on responsibility...
Was that how you covered the hook-in issue with Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney before you signed his ticket and sent him down to Queenstown to do tandem rides?Scott Wilkinson - 2005/10/05 14:10:56 UTC
We visited Steve Wendt yesterday, who was visibly choked up over Bill's death. For Steve, it all comes down to one thing: you've got to hook in. Period.
- How 'bout a well groomed grass strip?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3725/9665623251_612b921d70_o.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG
Wouldn't it be better to have a few trees around if you're gonna be whipstalling and locking out pro toads on regular bases? A lot of people have survived some pretty nasty falls...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbaNQO4AXng
...that were arrested by them.
Really? When was the last time you made a public comment on a serious incident? Hell, when was the last time you made a public comment on an incident that COULD have been serious if it had happened twenty feet lower?I've been watching for years now...
Yeah, I have a hard time with some of this stuff too. For instance......and I still can't understand many of the decisions that are made in this sport.
What's the thinking about the purpose of this standard weak link like we would for aerotow? What's it supposed to do for us...Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03But with the towline we use a standard weak link like we would for aerotow... Uh... This... In this particular case it's 130 greenline, 130 pound test.Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03
NEVER CUT THE POWER...
Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?
...and does anybody have any good examples of it doing it?Jim Rooney - 2010/05/31 01:53:13 UTC
BTW, Steve Wendt is exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one that signed off my instructor rating.
Not with you, Rooney, Kitty Hawk, Quest, Ridgely anyway - motherfucker.Sometimes the best lesson you can teach is not to fly.
Yeah, they don't start having barely incidents on any scale until they start applying the crap you're teaching...We have surpassed 40,000 scooter training tows now with barely an incident.
http://www.willswing.com/articles/Article.asp?reqArticleName=scooter
Scooter Towing, an Easy Way To Learn To FLY!
...and equipping them with out in the REAL world.Once they have mastered the release and small turns Steve switches to a 125cc scooter.
Yeah, the PROBLEM with that is that SOARING - with is really the only point to learning to fly hang gliders - can ONLY be done in EXTREMELY QUESTIONABLE conditions and all that crap goes down the toilet when the shit hits the fan, people get killed, we have rerun discussions that go on for hundreds of posts until Davis and Jack lock them down - and your useless fucking ass is ALWAYS conspicuously absent.I attribute it to always using a turn around pulley so that each and every launch can be meticulously watched and controlled, teaching in light to no winds only, using large slow gliders, and definitely using good judgment to not fly when conditions are at all questionable.
But, I guess all you professional pilots...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
...are on the same page with all this stuff so as long as you've got Rooney keeping us in line there really wouldn't be any point to you stepping in and saying all the same things.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC
Argue all you like about the "true" purpose of a weaklink... but it's only you that's arguing.
I find no disagreement in the professional community as to such.
I only find a disconnect when they're talking to the general public, and it always boils down to semantics.
See, we're not confused.
You're searching for an argument and only finding it within yourself.
This btw is one of the main reasons that most of the professionals do not bother with the forums.
Cuz it's generally a bitchfest around here.
Instead of looking for an argument, you may consider listening instead.
Yeah? So what kinds of conditions can Flight Park Mafia aerotowing...Scooter tow training simply can not be done safely in windy conditions.
054-03623
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2925/14422539820_074cff03b7_o.png
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTKIAvqd7GI
0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27yFcEMpfMk
10-2017
11-2201
12-2303
15-2421
...be safely done in?
- A TWO point bridle? One that splits the tow tension between the pilot and glider? Sorry Steve...I also feel that during training a two point bridle should be used, not directly to just the pilot.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26429
Pro Tow vs Three Point
That's OBVIOUSLY a THREE point bridle - the left half of the pilot, the right half of the pilot, and the glider.Davis Straub - 2012/06/26 00:06:02 UTC
Why is pro-tow sometimes thought of as single point towing when it is clear to me that there are two points? Does this mean that towing from your keel or carabiner and your shoulders is a two point tow?
There seems to actually be only one point that you are towed from, the end of the tow line, then the tow forces are split up to two or three places.
If you towed from a single point on your harness (in the center, presumably) would that be a one point tow or half a point tow?
Is this just an example of our failure to communicate?
- Oh. That's your FEELING. Over forty thousand tows now and we're still going by your FEELINGS. You just have a FEELING that Majo would've been better off with a portion of the tow force pulling the nose down. But who really knows for sure?
- And after TRAINING people can go just to the pilot because their responses will be fast and decisive enough to keep things under control just fine. So Zack Marzec wouldn't have been any better off with a two point bridle...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26429
Pro Tow vs Three Point
...because not only had he COMPLETED the training - he was actually DOING the training. And, hell, this is just a matter of feelings anyway.Davis Straub - 2012/06/21 16:17:23 UTC
It's pretty simple really. You'll have to pull in a lot more and maybe even push the bar way back. This will most likely lead to PIO's. Which you then get a chance to learn how to deal with.
Have you tried protow on scooter tow? You might try that first.
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 9161
- Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC
Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends
http://ozreport.com/17.208
Bad instructor
http://vimeo.com/68791399
162-20727
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8576/16673571861_3962427127_o.png
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line
- Majo got demolished about as much as the situation would allow.
- Lin - for the purpose of the exercise - got totally fuckin' killed.
- Majo may have well been a one time catastrophic lapse.
- Lin was Mission Standard Operating Procedure.
- It's highly unlikely that Majo's instructor(s) told her what an asshole she was for popping the nose and not holding the correction.
- Mission totally:
-- dumped on Lin for connecting his three-string wrong
-- took a walk on the fact that they didn't:
--- bother checking his connection
--- even have anything on their end to connect wrong
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25180
Recommended schools/instructors in the SF Bay Area
Bad instructor
Davis Straub - 2013/10/18 16:32:36 UTC
Breaking both arms (Salama, Baja Verapaz, Guatemala)
http://mydreamsmypassions.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/warrior-spirit/
Warrior Spirit | My dreams, my passions
The video accompanying the article shows just how bad the instruction was.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIHfVnuNX0Y
But...Steve Wendt - 2013/10/18
What a shame. It breaks my heart to see students going through this type of trauma. Just seeing the trees in the background shaking is all I need to know and see. It was way too windy to scooter tow train. I wouldn't allow students to fly in those conditions. Also, the training environment isn't a safe one if that is even possible. You can't train students with fences and poles anywhere near where a student could possibly go.
I've been watching for years now, and I still can't understand many of the decisions that are made in this sport. Sometimes the best lesson you can teach is not to fly.
We have surpassed 40,000 scooter training tows now with barely an incident. I attribute it to always using a turn around pulley so that each and every launch can be meticulously watched and controlled, teaching in light to no winds only, using large slow gliders, and definitely using good judgment to not fly when conditions are at all questionable. Scooter tow training simply can not be done safely in windy conditions. I also feel that during training a two point bridle should be used, not directly to just the pilot.
http://vimeo.com/68791399
162-20727
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8576/16673571861_3962427127_o.png
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line
I don't hear a lot of you establishment shits talking too much about what an atrocity was committed by Mission. Yeah, Majo got demolished as the consequence of the stupid shit perpetrated by her instructor(s) and Lin came out smelling like a rose. But:Gordon Marshall - 2013/07/03 04:12:58 UTC
I am so incredibly angry with this video, the poor fellow towing is obviously a novice and is being taught how to tow with so many safety violations that the instructor should have his certification revoked.
- Majo got demolished about as much as the situation would allow.
- Lin - for the purpose of the exercise - got totally fuckin' killed.
- Majo may have well been a one time catastrophic lapse.
- Lin was Mission Standard Operating Procedure.
- It's highly unlikely that Majo's instructor(s) told her what an asshole she was for popping the nose and not holding the correction.
- Mission totally:
-- dumped on Lin for connecting his three-string wrong
-- took a walk on the fact that they didn't:
--- bother checking his connection
--- even have anything on their end to connect wrong
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25180
Recommended schools/instructors in the SF Bay Area
Greg Laabs (OverloadUT) - 2012/02/14 23:37:27 UTC
Novato, California
Hi guys!
My Hang Gliding Training Manual came today which I will begin studying immediately. I also have a bit of spare cash, so I think it's about time I schedule at least my first hands-on lesson.
So my next big question is what school or what instructor I should train with. I've read some advice about being sure to do research on your instructor and asking other HG pilots for suggestions, so that's what I'm doing!
The two major schools I have found around here are Bay Area Hang Gliding and Mission Soaring.
I'd love to hear opinions or especially personal recommendations, either in reply to this thread or in PM if you prefer.
CAL - 2012/02/15 01:46:23 UTC
Ogden
welcome, i learned at Mission Soaring center, with Pat Denevan, they have a great shop probably the only one with a store that you can walk into, ask for Pat and tell him Cal sent you he will treat you well, he will set you up with anything related to hang gliding
Have fun !
Paul Hurless - 2012/02/15 02:06:50 UTC
John Fritsche - 2012/02/15 02:13:50 UTC
Lompoc
Mission Soaring has a solid 30-year (or more?) history. Full disclosure: I taught for MS for a year in 1991. The owner is very dedicated to excellent instruction and equipment. He does it right.
Terry Strahl - 2012/02/15 02:24:00 UTC
Mission is good ... if you have the cash and dont mind several instructors along the way.
Carmela Moreno - 2012/02/15 18:13:18 UTC
Bay Area
There are some top quality instructors in the BA. Whoever you choose you will not go wrong. Mission soaring might be a little further for instructions. most of the teaching is out at Hollister. There you have foot launch and scooter tow to choose from.
Manta_Dreaming - 2012/02/15 18:34:46 UTC
Mission Soaring Center - ask for Dave Yount.
MSC also has a towing rig that will tow you up to 1500 feet or so after you get your hang1.
Jason Boehm - 2013/09/27 23:11:06 UTC
I don't think any of the bay area guys will really steer you wrong
Un fucking believable. Guess it's a lot more socially acceptable to piss all over some little Podunk banana republic operation than to deal with the malignancy of our homegrown superpower sacred cows.Dan Johnson - 2013/09/28 03:47:49 UTC
True!
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 9161
- Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC
Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30128
The history of my accident learning to fly
Bad instructor
- strong crosswind (and you don't even mention that it's cross)
- fence posts in the crash zone
- use:
-- an easy floater trainer glider
-- a two point bridle (which you're biggest promoter calls a three point and denounces as dangerous) - based on your FEELINGS
Useless fuckin' opportunistic exploitive infomercial. Too bad we don't have a video of Holly Korzilius's little Blue Sky joy ride on 2005/05/29 and they didn't release the videos of Blue Sky products Bill Priday and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney launching their solo and tandem gliders unhooked.
The history of my accident learning to fly
http://ozreport.com/17.208Brad Barkley - 2013/10/16 13:38:11 UTC
There you can take scooter tow lessons with Steve Wendt, who is acknowledged as the master of the scooter tow method.
Bad instructor
What's the point of this rare post to which you're privileging us, Steve? What deep insights is the acknowledged master of the scooter tow method with over forty thousand tows and barely an incident treating us with that aren't fuckin' obvious to your average ten year old kid who's never been anywhere near a glider before?Steve Wendt - 2013/10/18
What a shame. It breaks my heart to see students going through this type of trauma. Just seeing the trees in the background shaking is all I need to know and see. It was way too windy to scooter tow train. I wouldn't allow students to fly in those conditions. Also, the training environment isn't a safe one if that is even possible. You can't train students with fences and poles anywhere near where a student could possibly go.
I've been watching for years now, and I still can't understand many of the decisions that are made in this sport. Sometimes the best lesson you can teach is not to fly.
We have surpassed 40,000 scooter training tows now with barely an incident. I attribute it to always using a turn around pulley so that each and every launch can be meticulously watched and controlled, teaching in light to no winds only, using large slow gliders, and definitely using good judgment to not fly when conditions are at all questionable. Scooter tow training simply can not be done safely in windy conditions. I also feel that during training a two point bridle should be used, not directly to just the pilot.
- strong crosswind (and you don't even mention that it's cross)
- fence posts in the crash zone
- use:
-- an easy floater trainer glider
-- a two point bridle (which you're biggest promoter calls a three point and denounces as dangerous) - based on your FEELINGS
Useless fuckin' opportunistic exploitive infomercial. Too bad we don't have a video of Holly Korzilius's little Blue Sky joy ride on 2005/05/29 and they didn't release the videos of Blue Sky products Bill Priday and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney launching their solo and tandem gliders unhooked.
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 9161
- Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC
Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends
http://ozreport.com/17.208
Bad instructor
http://mydreamsmypassions.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/warrior-spirit/
Warrior Spirit | My dreams, my passions
...Majo was FAR from being a Day One student. I'd guess she was probably around a 1.50 or 1.75.
And I've dolly launched in a lot stronger cross than that glider was feeling but I wouldn't be crazy about foot launch towing in it.
Majo couldn't afford to be going up with a possibility of coming down where she did - posts or no posts. If there was a possibility of her coming down there (and there obviously WAS) she shouldn't have been flown AT ALL.
- low powered winch
- turnaround pulley which conventional and hang gliders have been using since the beginning of time
- total crap masquerading as releases
- putting green the size of Nebraska
Anything over a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot on a solo glider is DEADLY...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
One point surface tow training isn't more DANGEROUS because Pat Denevan...
http://vimeo.com/68791399
162-20727
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8576/16673571861_3962427127_o.png
...uses one point surface tow training. The most Steve can say is that he also feels that during training a two point bridle should be used. But, hell, if Pat Denevan feels that during training a one point bridle can be used, that's perfectly OK as well
One point aerotowing isn't DANGEROUS for experienced pilots...
Holly Korzilius would've been just fine on one point...
http://www.ozreport.com/9.133
Lesson from an aerotow accident report
- first had a short clinic under supervised conditions in the evening air
- installed a proper weak link (you can't get into too much trouble with a proper or appropriate weak link)
And when Zack Marzec - a tandem aerotow instructor from the same hang gliding school managed by Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt for many years - has:
- undergone the short clinic under supervised conditions in the evening air
- installed a proper weak link
before being pro toad off the deck in normal recreational conditions and fails to handle them by effecting his reduced available effective pull-in more quickly and maintaining a pulse until the ambulance arrives at South Lake Hospital the Industry avoids discussing the issues that allowed things to happen like the plague and - as much as possible - the incident itself.
Bad instructor
So how often do you take stands on critical issues to help lessen the frequency of this type of trauma? And don't tell me that you're doing all you can with your own students because when they fuck up spectacularly - Holly Korzilius, Bill Priday, Jim Rooney - it's us muppets who are doing what we can to pick up the pieces.Steve Wendt - 2013/10/18
What a shame. It breaks my heart to see students going through this type of trauma.
That's cause you're an asshole. The wind STRENGTH wasn't the issue here. The issue was OVERWHELMINGLY *DIRECTION*. And the DIRECTION was ninety cross. And that was apparent from the yellow streamers on the end of the towline.Just seeing the trees in the background shaking is all I need to know and see.
BULLSHIT. It was too windy for your Day One crowd but...It was way too windy to scooter tow train.
http://mydreamsmypassions.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/warrior-spirit/
Warrior Spirit | My dreams, my passions
...Majo was FAR from being a Day One student. I'd guess she was probably around a 1.50 or 1.75.
Meaning that you WILL allow more advanced pilots to fly in those conditions. And since all good pilots are ALWAYS students (although advanced pilots should be learning less and less at increasing intervals and very little of any real importance as their training and experience go on) you're saying that you WILL allow students to fly in those conditions.I wouldn't allow students to fly in those conditions.
And I've dolly launched in a lot stronger cross than that glider was feeling but I wouldn't be crazy about foot launch towing in it.
BULLSHIT. Students at ALL levels are capable of locking out and slamming in so hard that it won't matter any what is or isn't in the crash zone. Think Mike Haas, Robin Strid, Steve Elliot, Roy Messing, John Seward, Terry Mason, Zack Marzec.Also, the training environment isn't a safe one if that is even possible. You can't train students with fences and poles anywhere near where a student could possibly go.
Majo couldn't afford to be going up with a possibility of coming down where she did - posts or no posts. If there was a possibility of her coming down there (and there obviously WAS) she shouldn't have been flown AT ALL.
And what have you contributed to the sport?I've been watching for years now...
- low powered winch
- turnaround pulley which conventional and hang gliders have been using since the beginning of time
- total crap masquerading as releases
- putting green the size of Nebraska
Did you understand the fourteen page article on 130 pound Greenspot fishing line Dr. Trisa Tilletti published in the 2012/06 issue of the magazine? I'm guessing you did 'cause a top notch professional such as yourself always prioritizes staying on top of all the advancements in the industry and you didn't raise any issues about it....and I still can't understand many of the decisions that are made in this sport.
The BEST lesson would be teaching the student what conditions start making the risk/reward ratio thing a bit iffy.Sometimes the best lesson you can teach is not to fly.
Look at the code these motherfuckers adhere to. NOTHING that's in use or practiced by mainstream hang gliding is DANGEROUS.We have surpassed 40,000 scooter training tows now with barely an incident. I attribute it to always using a turn around pulley so that each and every launch can be meticulously watched and controlled, teaching in light to no winds only, using large slow gliders, and definitely using good judgment to not fly when conditions are at all questionable. Scooter tow training simply can not be done safely in windy conditions. I also feel that during training a two point bridle should be used, not directly to just the pilot.
Anything over a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot on a solo glider is DEADLY...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
...to glider and tug alike. But when Morningside starts using 200...Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC
Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
...it's INSTANTLY reasonably safe and an accepted standard.Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC
The accepted standards and practices changed.
Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink.
One point surface tow training isn't more DANGEROUS because Pat Denevan...
http://vimeo.com/68791399
162-20727
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8576/16673571861_3962427127_o.png
...uses one point surface tow training. The most Steve can say is that he also feels that during training a two point bridle should be used. But, hell, if Pat Denevan feels that during training a one point bridle can be used, that's perfectly OK as well
One point aerotowing isn't DANGEROUS for experienced pilots...
It just reduces the effective pull-in available to prevent an over-the-top lockout - like the one Zack Marzec experienced. But most of the time you can handle it by effecting your reduced available effective pull-in more quickly and, if you can't, you'll still be OK if you follow emergency procedures - like maintaining a pulse until the ambulance arrives at South Lake Hospital.Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
Thirdly, experienced pilots should be aware that towing only from the shoulders reduces the effective pull-in available to prevent an over-the-top lockout. Like many pilots, I prefer the freedom of towing from the shoulders, but I am aware that I must react quicker to pitch excursion. Sometimes reactions aren't quick enough and emergency procedures must be followed. It seems to me that we shouldn't be overly eager to encourage lower airtime pilots to adopt this more advanced method of aerotowing.
Holly Korzilius would've been just fine on one point...
http://www.ozreport.com/9.133
Lesson from an aerotow accident report
...if she had just:USHGA Accident Report Summary
Pilot: Holly Korzilius
Reporter: Steve Wendt, USHGA Instructor # 19528
Date : 5/29/05
Summary: I observed the accident from a few hundred yards away, but could clearly see launch and the aero tow was coming towards my area so that I had a full view of the flight. I was at the wreckage in a few seconds and afterwards gathered the information that helps understand the results of some unfortunate poor decisions of the injured pilot.
The pilot launched at 12:15 while conditions were just starting to become thermally, with just a slight crosswind of maybe 20 degrees with winds of 8 to 12 mph NNW. The pilot had flown here via AT more than 50 times.
Holly immediately had control problems right off the dolly and completed 3 oscilations before it took her 90 degrees from the tow vehicle upon when the tug pilot hit the release and Holly continued turning away from the tow in a fairly violent exchange of force . Holly pulled in to have control speed and then began rounding out , but there was not enough altitude and she hit the ground before she could do so. She was barely 100 feet when she was locked out in a left hand turn. At that time, she was banked up over 60 degrees.
The basebar hit the ground first, nose wires failed from the impact, and at the same time she was hitting face first. She had a full face helmet, which helped reduce her facial injuries but could not totallly prevent them. The gliders wings were level with the ground when it made contact with the ground.
First aid was available quickly and EMT response was appropriate .
Now, why did Holly not have control? Holly has two gliders, a Moyes Sonic, and the Moyes Litesport that she was flying during the accident. She has flown here in much stronger conditions before. and has always flown safely , on both of her gliders, but usually chooses her Sonic if air is questionable, or if she hasn't flown in a while.
Holly for some reason chose to fly her Litesport, she has always towed it with proper releases and weak links and usually seeked advice from me when unsure of something.
This time she couldn't find her v-bridle top line with her weak link installed for her priimary keel release. She chose to tow anyway, and just go from the shoulders, which to my knowledge she had never done before, nor had she been trained to understand potential problems. This could have been done with a short clinic and if we thought it a possibility, been done under supervised conditions in the evening air. Our dollys have check lists for many things, one is that you have a proper weak link installed. She had no weak link as it was normally on the upper line that she couldn't find, and we can only assume that she didn't even consider the fact that she now didn't have a weak link.
These mistakes caused her to have too much bar pressure, farther in bar position, she was cross controlling, and had no weak link. She hadn't flown that glider in a while and changed these towing aspects that I believe all combined to make a violant combination. The pilot also stayed on tow too long. She should have released after the first, or even the second oscilation when she realized that things were not correct. Failing to do so put the glider in a locked out situation that she could no longer control.
- first had a short clinic under supervised conditions in the evening air
- installed a proper weak link (you can't get into too much trouble with a proper or appropriate weak link)
And when Zack Marzec - a tandem aerotow instructor from the same hang gliding school managed by Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt for many years - has:
- undergone the short clinic under supervised conditions in the evening air
- installed a proper weak link
before being pro toad off the deck in normal recreational conditions and fails to handle them by effecting his reduced available effective pull-in more quickly and maintaining a pulse until the ambulance arrives at South Lake Hospital the Industry avoids discussing the issues that allowed things to happen like the plague and - as much as possible - the incident itself.
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 9161
- Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC
Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34145
Fort Funston
- publishing fiction in hang SOPs, gliding magazines, textbooks, websites
- deleting SOPs following fatalities that occurred because the SOPs were violated
- falsifying, redacting, shredding crash reports
- suppressing information on and killing fixes
- scapegoating students and victims
- dumbing down standards to bring the existing crap equipment and procedures into compliance
- selling known defective tow equipment worldwide
- dumping tow tension on compromised gliders
- stating weak link strengths two to three times test values
- refusing to teach hook-in checks and attacking everyone who pushes for compliance
- hitting the gas on foot launch towers who haven't done hook-in checks
- locking down discussions as errors, incompetence, negligence, fixes start becoming obvious
- forcing extremely dangerous landing practices for rating advancement
- intimidating, killing flying careers of, and silencing reformers and whistleblowers
- allowing commercial operations with huge conflict of interest issues to arbitrarily write whatever dangerous policy suits them best
Nobody at Funston has ever been scratched as a consequence of anybody else's belligerent, illegal, asshole behavior. The rest of the sport is a bloodbath for all of the above and many similar reasons. And NOBODY is ever held the LEAST BIT ACCOUNTABLE. The scumbags responsible for just about all the carnage in this sport are a thousand times more likely to get awards as they are sanctions.
Fort Funston
Since when did killing another person in hang gliding become a big fucking deal?Graeme Henderson - 2013/10/16 02:55:08 UTC
It is a funny thing, but in a court of law a criminal can only be judged on the matter at hand, and evidence has to qualify to be admitted. I don't understand what the exact charge was here, nor have I been able to review the evidence, but it doesn't seem to be just. A life-time ban is an incredible punishment for any act, by any pilot, that did not kill another person.
- publishing fiction in hang SOPs, gliding magazines, textbooks, websites
- deleting SOPs following fatalities that occurred because the SOPs were violated
- falsifying, redacting, shredding crash reports
- suppressing information on and killing fixes
- scapegoating students and victims
- dumbing down standards to bring the existing crap equipment and procedures into compliance
- selling known defective tow equipment worldwide
- dumping tow tension on compromised gliders
- stating weak link strengths two to three times test values
- refusing to teach hook-in checks and attacking everyone who pushes for compliance
- hitting the gas on foot launch towers who haven't done hook-in checks
- locking down discussions as errors, incompetence, negligence, fixes start becoming obvious
- forcing extremely dangerous landing practices for rating advancement
- intimidating, killing flying careers of, and silencing reformers and whistleblowers
- allowing commercial operations with huge conflict of interest issues to arbitrarily write whatever dangerous policy suits them best
Nobody at Funston has ever been scratched as a consequence of anybody else's belligerent, illegal, asshole behavior. The rest of the sport is a bloodbath for all of the above and many similar reasons. And NOBODY is ever held the LEAST BIT ACCOUNTABLE. The scumbags responsible for just about all the carnage in this sport are a thousand times more likely to get awards as they are sanctions.