Is your answer ironic !?Tad Eareckson wrote:Right....instead of weight shift resulted in not being able to correct but was perhaps not the most severe issue. If you notice at about 45 seconds, the bottom portion of the bridle goes slack resulting in 100% of the tow force being applied to the glider.
25-04714
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7319/11414267393_23e21cf4b8_o.png
Fuck what the pilot does at 1:01. At a competent operation things would never have gotten anywhere near 0:49 - let alone beyond it.NMERider - 2013/12/16 18:29:57 UTC
Watch carefully and see what the pilot does at 1:01.
The result WOULD have been disastrous had this actually happened at low altitude - with or without a goddam tumble.The result could have been disastrous due to low altitude and the very high likelihood of a tumble.
- Do you know the tug driver or whether he has had any aerotow training? I'm guessing not.I don't know this pilot or whether he has had any aerobatic training...
...asshole?NMERider - 2009/10/01 22:31:04 UTC
IIRC - Tad has already worn out his welcome on the Oz Report over his AT release mechanism, and so it seems he has come here to preach his gospel of safety according to Tad. The prize of course will either be delivered by the HMS Beagle or can be found on the Gallapagos Islands.
The violent pitching could have been even more quickly suppressed by the runway if this had happened down where it mattered....but the violent pitching could have been quickly suppressed by rolling the glider.
Yeah, Jonathan? Do you think this video:I hope this video becomes a useful tool for aero-towing instructors and pilots everywhere.
Fuck Australia.This was in Australia.
Maybe the fuckin' trike got too high and hit him with the propwash - and/or vortices.seb - 2013/12/16 19:13:16 UTC
Alabama
Maybe he got too low and hit prop wash.
And here's what Davis says:Davis Straub - 2013/12/16 19:32:21 UTC
That's what it says.
That's a really great release Bobby, your buddies at Quest and Cloud 9, and you have been perfecting, promoting, mandating for twenty years, Davis.Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC
You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.
I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.
Well gee, Diev... Maybe he was using...Diev Hart - 2013/12/16 20:06:25 UTC
He should have released by the :47 mark.....not try to be superman (save a bad thing)...glad he had the alt under him and he was ok.....as we saw the weaklink would have held long enough for him to pound in had he been lower....PLEASE RELEASE AS SOON AS SOMETHING GOES WRONG.
one of those releases that has issues releasing under load and he was just waiting for the load to go down to something reasonable. Idiot.Diev Hart - 2011/07/14 17:19:12 UTC
I have had issues with them releasing under load. So I don't try to release it under a lot of load now.
- Oh my GOD! I forgot about the trike! Please let the trike be OK!Dave Pendzick - 2013/12/16 22:31:03 UTC
I wonder how that affected the trike?
What does where the tug was hanging out look like to you?Jason Boehm - 2013/12/16 22:49:54 UTC
i've never aerotowed a hangglider, but in the sailplane we "box the wake" and it looks to me like he hung out in the area that isn't too fun to hand out in.
And, obviously, there was nothing for the tug driver to learn.hopefully he has learned something......lots of things went wrong here
The concept of the bad pin man went out over thirty years ago when the Industry realized how convenient it was blaming everything on the dead guy.Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
Give Malcolm a buzz and ask him...yuvinb - 2013/12/16 23:09:05 UTC
I have very little experience with airtowing (just learned how last month in wallaby ranch)...
...why this guy's weak link didn't break before he got into too much trouble. And ask yourself about the legitimacy of anything you'd have learned from an asshole who publishes crap like this.Wallaby Ranch - 2013/12/17
If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.
What does it look like the tug was doing?...but it looks like this guy is all over the place, never once stable in a good position relative to the tow.
So should the tug have been totally stunned?I'm not surprised at all that it happened.
And I'm happy that you've had the training you needed to watch it and reach the conclusions you did.Who ever you are i'm happy you landed safely and shared this video with us.
Fuck you, Dennis.Dennis Wood - 2013/12/17 03:38:58 UTC UTC
Suffolk, Virginia
v-bridle could maybe adjusted some, but since it wasn't, ya gotta fly that thing. when it really hits the fan, is when the "rider" seems to take his concentration off the tug and go sightseeing...
Yeah Carole. That's what's happening. The drogue is kinking the line. Probably one of those lead drogues that were all the rage about five years ago.Carole Sherrington - 2013/12/17 13:25:26 UTC
You can see that just before everything goes pear shaped that the towline from pilot to drogue and the towline from drogue to tug are not in line. The drogue on the tow is putting in a distinct kink in the line.
You're not doing anything anywhere in the ballpark of thinking.The line leading from the pilot is diverging well to the right, causing a left roll input and the pilot isn't doing anything at all about it.
Hose-pipe in the harness moment I think.
Where's it recommended that the tug be flying? Anywhere the fuck he feels like as long as he's climbing to the agreed upon altitude?zamuro - 2013/12/17 16:46:14 UTC
New York
Yes, He seems to be flying right in the tug wake instead of being higher as it is recommended.
The "classic" lockout is just another of the many loads of total crap constituting Donnell Hewett's Skyting "Theory". His ASSUMPTION was - and IS - that tow tension pulling to a side would pull the pilot under the near wing and load it and thus autocorrect for roll and direction.Steve Seibel - 2013/12/17 17:37:10 UTC
I think not a lockout....
I'd say that this is not a "classic" lockout-- the towline doesn't appear to be pulling the pilot to the side against the down tube.
Bullshit. The idiot tug is obviously very high.At :50 the bank angle is past 45 degrees but the hang glider is not yet very far out of position behind the tug (in the left-right direction; he's obviously very low).
Yes, he is very totally locked out and the ride is over.The pilot is near centered on the bar. The towline is not pulling the pilot sideways against the down tube. And yet the hang glider is uncontrollably rolling to a very steep bank angle!
Bullshit. Whenever the glider's at a point at which the pilot lacks the control authority to bring it back it's a REAL lockout - regardless of what precipitated the situation and/or what else is going on.In a real lockout, the roll to a steep bank angle comes when the hang glider is well off the side, so that the towline leaves the pilot at a strong sideways angle and pulls his body toward the down tube.
Bullshit. Fuck his shoulder. He's making zilch effort to get his body over to under the right wing. He's got tons of potential roll control authority that he's not using.As a result the pilot has no "room" to correct-- even a relatively weak roll input puts his shoulder against the down tube.
Bullshit. The tow was over at 0:48. All he could do from that point on was resist and slow its progression.The next step in the progression of a real lockout is that the towline pulls the pilot's shoulder against the down tube even when the pilot exerts zero muscle force-- or the towline itself actually touches the lower front wire. At this point there is pretty much no possibility of recovery.
Show me a video of that happening.At 0:51 the glider's bank angle is near vertical. In a real lockout the towline would be and pulling the pilot hard against the right down tube so that he has no room to shift further right and stop the roll.
It doesn't matter. For the purpose of the exercise he was dead at 0:48. We really don't need to be discussing anything subsequent to that point. And we really need to be discussing the crap that brought us to that point.Yet the pilot appears to be roughly centered-- presumably, he is shifting right with his muscles, but feeling some tendency to "fall" to the left due to the apparent forces generated by sideslip. My experience is that these apparent forces due to sideslip are never very large-- and are usually overpowered by any sideways component in the pull of the towline on the pilot-- so it's hard to see how the pilot could be shifting to the right (pushing the bar to the left) very forcefully at this point. Maybe I'm missing something.
Who gives a rat's ass? This is a lot like one of those idiot Jack Show discussions on how to best abort a foot launch when you realize that your wing's risen beyond the point at which your suspension should've tightened.At what point, if any, does the V-bridle touch the front wires?
That's about right. So what? He's rolled to ninety. We can't afford to get into a situation in which we're rolled to ninety at an altitude at which it matters.I think not before 0:52, where the bank angle is already quite extreme.
Why:Why does the pilot's harness boot appear to be going to left of center?
Knock yourself out, Steve. We don't have a system wide problem with people unable to make their gliders go left and right on aerotow. In fact, a greater problem that we have with competent free flyers learning to aerotow is that they make their gliders go left and right much too effectively.On tow, I find that shifting with "loose arms", allowing the shoulders to do most of the moving while the toes seem to move much less, is effective. The same muscle inputs would cause cross-controlling (toes swing opposite direction shoulders are moving, hang strap doesn't move much) in free-flight but I've never found cross-controlling to be an issue on tow. Is the line pulling sideways on the pilot's shoulders strongly enough to actually swing the pilot's toes to the left, as seem by the camera? If so, is it necessary for the pilot to fight this tendency, or not? I've not found it necesary to exert a yaw torque on the base bar for any reason on tow.
- There's a limit to the number of idiots you can have at the ends of ropes before you can expect something bad to happen - and you're pushing things at ONE.I don't think that this is really a "classic" lockout, where the sideways pull of the towline on the pilot is a major factor interfering with the pilot's ability to bring the glider back into position. I think that this is just a roll induced by wake turbulence--because the glider is too low.
If you go into it with speed...PPS Going down into the wake may be a useful training experience in a sailplane-- but when intentionally entering the wake in a hang glider, I've experienced in inability to climb back out.
How 'bout we train people:I think we need to stay above the wake, always-- maybe at a safe altitude descend till you just START to feel it, for training purposes, and then climb back up and stay there!
No shit, Steve. Hang gliders are dangerously roll unstable to begin with and we usually get all the experience with marginal situations we need just trying to keep our margins as wide as possible at all times.Likewise I think the "boxing the wake" exercise puts us too far out position to be a good idea in a hang glider!
Any reaction to his total failure to discuss anything prior to 1:01?PPPS Ditto to NME's comment re the pilot not knowing or thinking to use a roll input to help control the rapid rise of the nose as the glider is trying to enter a loop 0:56-0:58...
Any comment on the tug driver's deafening silence on this one?My two cents...
I'm glad this video was posted.
Why? THIS:A real eye-opener!
Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/10 18:44:27 UTC
I watched the glider come almost straight down from about 250 feet. I saw that Jeremiah was doing the takeoff right from the start and I watched him get pretty low on the tow as the tug crossed the road at the end of the runway.
Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/13 19:47:26 UTC
The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.
wasn't worth your attention?Chicago Sun-Times - 2005/10/06
"They're 200 feet in the air, and while normally they would glide to the ground, this hang glider nose-dived to the ground," attorney Matthew Rundio said. "We need to find out why that happened."
Or learned that the first letters of the first words in sentences are supposed to be capitalized.Jason Boehm - 2013/12/17 17:48:52 UTC
as mentioned I've never towed a HG...
Why would you tow behind a driver who'd stay up and leave you in the wake with no ability to climb out? Wouldn't you expect that to be the same caliber of asshole who's quite content to have a tow mast breakaway protector lighter than your weak link and is always poised to fix whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope?...but if I were to tow a HG and found myself in the wake with an inability to climb out, my next move would probably be to pull in and get into "low tow"
It's a "cable release", Jonathan? Not a string lanyard?NMERider - 2013/12/17 18:04:14 UTC
The slack line is the cable release for the 3-ring circus.
- According to those who were there did the asshole on the trike perform flawlessly? I guess so since they were all undoubtedly buddies of the asshole on trike.The primary issue according to those who were there is that the new-ish pilot was loitering below the trike in the prop wash and that the tug pilot failed to give him the rope once things went all pear-shaped.
Can't really see a problem with that approach - 'specially since this is just a solo.Safety Notice
HG Tandem Aerotow Operations
Date of Notice:
2006/03/15
It was noticed over a number of years there have been a number of fatalities to participants in hang glider aerotow instruction. The president of the USHPA, therefore, formed an Ad Hoc Joint Committee of the chairs of Safety and Training, Tandem and Towing to investigate this, appointing the Chair of Safety and Training to preside. Tandem instructors, Matt Taber and David Glover were invited to participate.
This committee reviewed a number of possible causes for aerotow tandem fatalities. One particular possible cause stood out as predominate. This was the common belief that when a glider gets low on tow the pilot can safely push out and let the glider climb up to the level of the tow plane safely because the glider will not stall under tow.
This issue is so important that this committee and the towing committee have recommended that the following message be sent to all aerotow pilots and all Aero-Tug pilots with a particular emphasis to aerotow tandem pilots.
Experiences in hang glider tandem flight using aero-tow launch along with analysis of accidents and incidents that have occurred during such flight strongly suggest, for safety reasons, the following cautions be observed.
If the pilot of the tandem glider finds that he/she is too low behind the tug and slow enough that the glider will not climb without pushing out pass trim, then the pilot should pull in and release rather than trying to push out and climb to the tug altitude. Though pushing out to climb to the tug altitude has been a common practice usually accomplished without incident, there is a deep underlying danger in doing this. Should the tandem glider become unattached from the tug during this maneuver, the nose high attitude of the tandem glider attained while doing this will cause a very abrupt stall which will result in a much greater altitude loss than one would expect (possibly more than 750 ft.) The most extreme cases may result in structural failure of the glider.
Towing tandems requires extra awareness on the part of the tug pilots, particularly in the early part of the tow to help the tandem pilot avoid the development of critical situations. Prior to the start of the tow, proper tow speeds based on the gross weight of the tandem glider should be determined. Greater total weight will require correspondingly higher tow speeds. It is CRITICAL to understand that the towed hang glider is at risk when the tow is slow and the glider is low. When towing a tandem glider, the tug pilot should fly the appropriate airspeed to keep the tandem glider in the proper position and if there is any doubt the tug pilot should fly slightly faster and avoid flying slightly slow.. The tug pilot should avoid pulling up abruptly and leaving the tandem glider low. If the glider is low on tow, the tug pilot should attempt to speed up and to descend to the altitude of the towed glider, releasing the tow rope only as a last resort.
These points are crucial to the safety of aerotow tandem flight. However, this letter is addressed to all aerotow rated pilots and tug pilots, not just to tandem pilots. This is because in consulting with pilots about this issue, we found that this problem is exhibited under the same circumstances with solo gliders as well. Because of the lighter wing loading of the solo gliders, the reaction of a solo glider is not as severe, but can still be violent.
To insure that all AT rated tandem pilots are notified, we are asking that the AT-rated tandem pilots sign on to the USHPA web site (http://www.ushga.org) and fill out a form that states that they have read and understand the safety notice. If you are an AT-rated tandem pilot and do not have computer access (ie. no email address) you will be sent the form to fill out and sign, and a USHPA addressed, stamped envelope. Understand that we are not asking if you agree with the safety notice, but that you have read it and understand what it says. You will need to do this in order to have your tandem rating renewed.
Flying with a tandem passenger is a special privilege which the FAA allows us to grant to qualified pilots. These pilots are supposed to be highly skilled. We expect tandem flights to be safer than solo flights, not more dangerous. Safety records do not currently seem to support this expectation. We expect tandem flights under the rules of the USHPA to be conducted in such a way that this expectation is realized.
David G. Broyles, Chairman of Safety and Training Committee
Steve Kroop, Chairman of Tow Committee
Paul Voight, Chairman of Tandem Committee
Look motherfucker...Just in case pilots here have ADD, there was fatal towing accident last year that involved a tumble after the line broke low in a powerful thermal. More recently there was an AT tumble and the pilot failed to deploy but survived. Then there was the pilot in Israel who whip-stalled and tumbled his U2 after going full arm extension.
in the course of listing gliders that had had nasty experiences right after coming off tow - particularly at the discretion of a loop of fishing line or some stupid pigfucker who has no business being anywhere near this sport?Sam Kellner - 2012/07/03 02:25:58 UTC
No, you don't get an accident report.
How 'bout not signing off aerotow ratings without teaching people how to deal with some dickhead on a tug who outclimbs them and leaves them wallowing in his wake without a care in the world?I wish pilots would learn to either ball up and stuff the bar when going weightless and pitching over or would learn to roll the gilder into a steep bank when pulling up sharply at high-G force. Learn how to deal with a high-G pull-up by rolling into a bank and learn to deal with a weightless pitch-over by stuffing the bar and holding it then gradually letting it out as the glider recovers. Much has been written on these topics by better pilots than me but I just gave you the answers you need to work with.
- Who should Arlan Birkett and Zack Marzec have gotten with and what is it you think they could've done better after the fishing line popped?Please get with a qualified instructor or senior pilot who can personally coach you in these rescue maneuvers. It may just save your life or at least your bacon.
Don't you pretend that you don't know bloody goddam well that Zack Marzec was killed by the "standard aerotow weak link" that's been coerced and forced on hang glider culture by the tug driver cartel for decades, slimeball.NMERider - 2013/02/19 22:56:19 UTC
...and I don't want to die if I can avoid it based upon what I have gathered for myself from portions of this thread.
I can't speak for anyone else but my takeaway so far:
1 - If I am under aerotow while too low to safely deploy my reserve and the tug suddenly slows and climbs rapidly leaving the line slack I must make a conscious decision regarding just how much I am willing to push out and attempt to take up the slack and climb even with the tug. I must be cognitively aware of the risk of coming off of tow (for any reason) and possibly entering an accelerated stall too low to deploy with an upset or broken glider and possibly in proximity to the turbulence that may have thrust the tug upward.
2 - I will not expect a weak link system to save me from a lock-out.
3 - I will appreciate that it is the tug pilot's call as to the maximum breaking strength of any so-called weak link system and not mine.
4 - I will be prepared for a loss of towing thrust (for any reason) at any point during the tow operation.
- Where in the video did you see the PILOT descending? It appears to me that both aircraft are both constantly climbing up to the point of the lockout.Steve Seibel - 2013/12/17 18:14:58 UTC
I think we're all agreeing that the pilot descending into the wake was a major factor here... sobering to know how powerful it's effect can be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1LbRj-NN9UGreg Laabs - 2013/12/17 20:26:53 UTC
Novato
I would love a video of an experienced pilot demonstrating recovery techniques in-air with a narrated, well paced video.
John
- And then we have a certain vector...
Mitch Shipley
- So there's the addition of those two...
John
- Yep.
Mitch Shipley
- ...is you know... actually goes like this. The addition of the two is a vector like that.
- So... The angle of attack on tow is the angle between the force, the glider, and the wind. All that stuff.
- If you take this away that angle goes from there to now there and the...
- You're stalled. You're stalled.
- You know... You're plowing through the air. And no longer can you...
- So you immediately... When you lose this coforce you have to adjust the angle of attack, gain speed down...
- 'Cause you've got plenty of speed this way, right? 'Cause you're actually going up.
John
- Oh yeah... Like horizontally but it's quickly being dissipated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrusMitch Shipley
- You bet. It's like a parachute. So what you have to do is establish and angle of attack such that when you're going down...
- So... Immediately...
- And it's not a STUFF... It's a good... Put...
- Then you wait, gain some speed and if you're right down on the ground a little bit you push out and...
- But you have to... gain your speed - even if you're very close to the ground - push out and land.
Sheryl Zayas
- Hey Tyler. Say hi!
- Not gonna say hi?
- Zoe says hi.
- Whoa! God.
- Zoe stay here.
- Oh God! Did the line break or something?
Socrates Zayas
- just me: Weak Link Break, scary cause the wing didn't fly till about 24inches from the ground!
Those work for ya?Glenn Zapien
- Reminds me of wind shadow..
lockout - 2013/12/19 04:17:30 UTC
Australia
Pilot's perspective
I was the pilot in the 'lockout'.
Firstly, as it was my first aerotow without an instructor present and my first aerotow in twelve months since the aerotow course, I probably should have had a tow in calm conditions early morning or in the evening to familiarise myself again.
Secondly, as I had watched two weaklinks break before me, I made a bad decision to strengthen mine from the standard 1G to 1.5G. As you might have guessed, I changed it back for the next tow.
Thirdly, because there was a ground marshal with a radio, I for some reason deliberately chose not to lock-on my radio during the tow. My radio PTT switch is on my left shoulder and I have to take a hand off the control bar in order to operate it. Things got busy very quickly and I didn't get to communicate with the tug pilot (who didn't see what happened to me) when I needed to.
However, my main problem, which no one has alluded to because it is not obvious from the camera angle, is that when I wanted to release I couldn't see the release line. The release was tied high on my right shoulder strap and in theory all I had to do if I couldn't see it was to locate it by feel and pull it. However in such a situation (and I have gone over the video which was filmed in thirty frames per second), things were happening literally frame by frame, there is no time to work out whether the release is on the right shoulder or the left shoulder and then start feeling for it.
I didn't end up releasing before the (previously strengthened) weak link broke.
My towing inexperience caused me some indecision when the trike rose quickly in a thermal. This doesn't seem to show well on the video, but I remember the trike shooting up above my horizon reference. My indecision was because in all my previous tows it has been an effort in my slow glider to stay down at the tug level and not get above it, being below it was a novelty... forgot all about propwash.
As I watched two other pilots being towed up before my next tow, I also remembered the short positive weight shift inputs that I had been taught but had also forgotten about on that tow.
The glider had popped No. 3 + No. 4 batten tips on both sides and both No. 2 + No. 3 undersurface battens had come out on both sides... so I guess the wing had been working hard.
The next tow was good and at all times I knew exactly where the tow release was!!
Perspective from dope on rope.Pilot's perspective
Nah. You didn't start becoming anything resembling a pilot until after you'd popped off tow.I was the pilot in the 'lockout'.
Sold to you by whom?Firstly, as it was my first aerotow without an instructor present and my first aerotow in twelve months since the aerotow course...
Wouldn't have hurt. But I don't know why you were doing pretty much nothing in the way of roll control input.I probably should have had a tow in calm conditions early morning or in the evening to familiarise myself again.
Yeah, that was a TERRIBLE decision. You were watching the kind of equipment failure that killed on of our beloved tandem aerotow instructors at Quest early this year and you made an adjustment - reasonably consistent with...Secondly, as I had watched two weaklinks break before me, I made a bad decision to strengthen mine from the standard 1G to 1.5G.
...USHGA's recommendation - to reduce the likelihood of a recurrence.Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
As such, USHPA's 1G recommendation for weak link strength for a weak link on a V-bridle is considered a nominal 1G value, rather than an actual 1G value. Using the same ratio of 0.575 to 1, a nominal 1G weak link on the end of the V-bridle equates to about 1.74G of force on the towline.
Yeah, we might have guessed. The 1.5 didn't break when it was supposed to so you went back to a proven system that works and has an extremely long track record. So at what roll attitude should you be able to count on your 1.0 blowing in an identical situation?As you might have guessed, I changed it back for the next tow.
Oh. So even when things are going normally on the tow you can't afford to take a hand off the basetube to effect the easy reach to the PTT switch on your shoulder. I shouldn't have thought that would present the least of difficulties.Thirdly, because there was a ground marshal with a radio, I for some reason deliberately chose not to lock-on my radio during the tow. My radio PTT switch is on my left shoulder and I have to take a hand off the control bar in order to operate it.
WHY didn't the motherfucker see what happened to you? What was going on in front of him that demanded his undivided attention and prevented him from monitoring what was going on with the rusty novice behind him?Things got busy very quickly and I didn't get to communicate with the tug pilot (who didn't see what happened to me)...
Why did you NEED TO talk to some asshole on the ground? To ask him to relay a message to the asshole on the trike reminding him that he had a glider behind him and requesting that he monitor what was going on with it once in a while?...when I needed to.
No one at your operation or amongst any of the douchebags on your YouTube page and/or on the Jack and Davis Shows. But if you check over here starting at:However, my main problem, which no one has alluded to because it is not obvious from the camera angle, is that when I wanted to release I couldn't see the release line.
Who's theory? Donnell Hewett's maybe?The release was tied high on my right shoulder strap and in theory...
You got any clue just how many assholes that theory has gotten killed?...all I had to do if I couldn't see it was to locate it by feel and pull it.
And, of course...However in such a situation (and I have gone over the video which was filmed in thirty frames per second), things were happening literally frame by frame, there is no time to work out whether the release is on the right shoulder or the left shoulder and then start feeling for it.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391Paul Tjaden - 2005/03/05 13:26:19 UTC
I also feel it may be easier to pin off in case of a lockout because you have a Bailey (for me, two of them, one on each side) and they are much closer to your center of gravity. Reaching that handle way out to the side can be challenging in a hard turn. The Bailey is right there.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1143Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC
I got clobbered and rolled hard right in a split second. I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
Davis Straub - 2006/01/24 12:27:32 UTC
I'm willing to put the barrel release within a few inches of my hand.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed. I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees.
I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending.
By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered - I was probably at a twenty degree bank - so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed.
The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.
...you'd have been JUST FINE if you'd known where the lanyard was and had been able to nail it instantly on the first shot.Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC
Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.
Yep. Gotta watch out for those stronglinks.I didn't end up releasing before the (previously strengthened) weak link broke.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC
Oh how many times I have to hear this stuff.
I've had these exact same arguments for years and years and years.
Nothing about them changes except the new faces spouting them.
It's the same as arguing with the rookie suffering from intermediate syndrome.
They've already made up their mind and only hear that which supports their opinion.
Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.
They don't always break when they're supposed to - like...Jim Rooney - 2013/02/13 19:09:33 UTC
It was already worked out by the time I arrived.
The reason it sticks?
Trail and error.
Every now and then someone comes along with the "new" idea of a stronger weaklink. Eventually, they scare themselves with it and wind up back with one that has a very proven track record. I mean really... no exaggeration... hundreds of thousands of tows.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17166Joe Gregor - 2004/09
The pilot suffered fatal injuries due to blunt trauma. There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.
...the tried and true Rooney Link always does.Roy Messing, a student pilot on a Falcon, age 67
An eye witness reports:Approximately ten emergency vehicles were parked all over the runway.
The EMTs were carrying a (presumed) pilot out from under the wreckage of a hang glider next to the runway. They loaded the victim/stretcher into an ambulance, but didn't drive away. Stayed parked on the runway for at least a half an hour. I don't yet know what the outcome was.
Later heard that he was evacuated by helicopter because of a head injury.
Conditions: 9am local time, 55°F, sunny and clear, with little or no wind.
- Did the trike NEED to rise that quickly in the thermal? He couldn't have pulled in and smoothed things out a bit for whatever he was towing - assuming that he remembered he was towing something?My towing inexperience caused me some indecision when the trike rose quickly in a thermal.
It shows DRAMATICALLY on the video. And, yeah, we know the wide angle dumbs things down and makes them look a lot less nasty than they are.This doesn't seem to show well on the video, but I remember the trike shooting up above my horizon reference.
It's the glider's job to not get above the tug. It's the tug's job not to get above the glider. I should've realized he was going up in a thermal and given him a little more slack but he wasn't watching you when watching you most mattered and did NOTHING to help you out.My indecision was because in all my previous tows it has been an effort in my slow glider to stay down at the tug level and not get above it, being below it was a novelty... forgot all about propwash.
Too bad you didn't go for longer less effective weight shift inputs.As I watched two other pilots being towed up before my next tow, I also remembered the short positive weight shift inputs that I had been taught but had also forgotten about on that tow.
Like you knew exactly where the PTT switch was on that tow - but found it to be totally inaccessible/useless during the LEAST exciting stretches of the tow.The glider had popped No. 3 + No. 4 batten tips on both sides and both No. 2 + No. 3 undersurface battens had come out on both sides... so I guess the wing had been working hard.
The next tow was good and at all times I knew exactly where the tow release was!!
He's on the wrong board. But at least what you assholes have to offer will be consistent with his "training".piano_man - 2013/12/19 05:20:22 UTC
Georgia
Hey lockout,
Thanks for coming on board...
Sure. Someone like Bill Bennett, Arlan Birkett, Zack Marzec......and I sure am glad you made back to earth safely. Man, that looked wild. In addition to the points you've made; perhaps having another tandem with an instructor for a refresher - after twelve months - might have helped.
...Mitch Risk-Is-Part-Of-The-Attraction Shipley...Davis Straub - 2012/04/18 15:02:09 UTC
Mitch Shipley (T2C 144) crashed at launch after a weak link break. He tried to stretch out the downwind leg and then drug a tip turning it around and took out his keel (at least).
...Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney...The Press - 2006/03/15
The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) is urgently pushing for new hang-gliding industry standards after learning a hang-gliding pilot who suffered serious injuries in a crash three weeks ago had not clipped himself on to the glider.
Extreme Air tandem gliding pilot James (Jim) Rooney safely clipped his passenger into the glider before departing from the Coronet Peak launch site, near Queenstown, CAA sports and recreation manager Rex Kenny said yesterday.
However, he took off without attaching himself.
In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.
Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.
...Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Instructor Tjaden.Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
His landing approach to WHAT? A hard, short cropped, flat as a pool table patch of land the size off Nebraska?BTW, I thought your landing approach was pretty darn good especially under the circumstances.
With the same inaccessible release and radio and idiot tug driver and a much safer weak link. No testicular deficiency with this dude.And you got back on the horse that day, you da man.
Yeah Jonathan. The more idiots you pull in on The Jack Show the better assholes such as yourself are gonna look.NMERider - 2013/12/19 07:47:03 UTC
Welcome lockout! Better to call yourself 'lockout' than 'Auger In'
Like what? Know which shoulder your release "cable" is tied to, use a piece of fishing line you've just seen pop on a couple of gliders before you to function as an emergency release and pitch and lockout limiter, and go back up behind the same clueless tug driver who almost killed his muppet passenger?Thanks for the additional factual details that will help others to stay safe.
Yeah Jonathan - with BOTH hands on the basetube and bridle attachments on the pilot and keel. How much do you think can happen in the space of a single frame with ONE hand on the basetube and a bridle attachment only on the pilot - especially with the ground a few hundred feet closer and/or the air a little nastier?Yes, I know that a lot can happen in the space of a single frame.
Instead of backing off and getting yourself equipped with anything other than the cheap deadly junk you're using for tow equipment.Glad you got yourself sorted and had another go straight away.
Because...seb - 2013/12/19 14:33:03 UTC
Why not put your primary release in your hand so if you need to release just pull.
...there's really no need to. You can actually do it in a fraction of the space between two of those frames clicking at thirty per second and the glider will never notice.Viktor Moroz - 2013/02/09 17:26:52 UTC
Other thing I know: a lot of pilots are afraid to take away one hand form a bar while the bar pressure is scary high. They think the glider immediately will do something bad. It's a delusion. At least one second we have. It's more than enough to make a release and get back the hand on the bar.
Don't you think that if this actually offered any significant safety advantage that his excellent instructor would've already told him this and equipped him with the best hardware available? And, hell, he's back using a one G weak link. And we all know that if you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble. I'm not really seeing any point to this.No need to search where your release is because it connected by a strap to your fingers.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540Need to release just yank it.
Violently and repeatedly.deltaman - 2011/07/14 08:33:59 UTC
LMFP RELEASE
U$139.95
http://estore.hanglide.com/Aerotow_Primary_Release_p/14-9004.htm
After several dysfunctions encountered by tandem, using a V-bridle and a 145kg wl on the apex, so a maximum load of 83kg on this primary release, I sent 3 times this email to fly@hanglide.com (LMFP contact) without any answer !!! :I bought with a friend 2 of them. He recieved them and never sent me this you can't consult before to have paid :Hello
I recently purchased one of your Aerotow Primary Releases for use in aerotowing tandem gliders. We conduct a tandem aerotowing operation just south of Paris, France.
We have been having considerable trouble releasing when the line is under high tension. It takes considerable effort to pull the Rope-Loop release, often requiring two or three violent tugs on the loop. Obviously, this is a considerable safety concern.
One possible reason for the difficulty is the fact that there is some play in the barrel, which does not fit 100% snugly against the main block. When there is tension on the line, the release catch tilts the barrel very slightly, which may have the effect of increasing friction and causing the barrel to catch (there is very slight burring on the main release block as a result of this tendancy).
I would appreciate any feedback you may have on this problem. If this is not an isolated case, and is in fact a design flaw that you have rectified in subsequent models, I would like to know the procedure for acquiring the updated model. If it is simply a problem with this particular item then I would like to have it replaced.
I look forward to your reply.
RegardsIncredible ! That's for sure not the definition of a suitable and reliable release !!GT Manufacturing Inc. (GT) and Lookout Mountain Flight Park Inc. (LMFP) make no claim of serviceability of this tow equipment. There is no product liability insurance covering this gear and we do not warrant this gear as suitable for towing anything. We make no claim of serviceability in any way and recommend that you do not use this aerotow gear if you are not absolutely sure how to use it and or if you are unwilling to assume the risk. Towing and flying hang gliders is inherently dangerous.
If properly used, there is a minimum of three ways to release from the towline. Do not depend on any of these ways by themselves and fly with a back up. The first release is the primary release which under certain situations may fail, second, is the secondary release that works most of the time, if all is set up correctly, and third, the weak link which will break under the right load. You should also fly with a hook knife that will allow you to cut the line if need be.
GT and LMFP Inc. assume no liability for the function and serviceability of this equipment. If you are uncomfortable with the risk of using this tow gear you will need to get gear that you are comfortable with or do not tow. There is an inherent risk in towing hang gliders that you must assume if you want to use this gear and you want to tow. Learn and understand the risk and the use of this gear. Your safety depends on it.
The new GT aerotow release, new as of July 11th 2009, is designed to be used with a V bridle and a 13O-pound green stripe Dacron tournament fishing line weak link. At this time it is not recommended to use this release with a higher value weak link. We are confident that with an ultimate load of 130 pounds at the release point, the new GT aerotow release works better than all cable releases that we have experience with.
In France, this type of warning is worthless in terms of justice.
From here we have the image of a U.S. court where the issue of money is fundamental and can ruin your life.
The way to do of LMFP is totally unreasonable not to mention the fact that they did a version 2.0 and work on a v3.0 without making any safety advert for their customers !
From where I live, I already know 2 other US pilots who had trouble !!
Stop !
Yeah. If you need to blow a primary release with both hands on the basetube to keep from flipping upside down and it doesn't work you can go to your secondary barrel valve on your shoulder because by this time you'll already be...Then your barrel valve can be your secondary on your shoulder.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033Something so simple can make such a big difference.
Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC
I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
Fly well!
Seb
So?Diev Hart - 2013/12/19 14:53:56 UTC
I think the pitch motions would cause it to release (linkknife type?)...
Big Fuckin' Deal.lockout - 2013/12/19 04:17:30 UTC
Secondly, as I had watched two weaklinks break before me, I made a bad decision to strengthen mine from the standard 1G to 1.5G.
...causing a real problem? It's actually a...Charlie Schneider - 2011/07/26 23:53:51 UTC
I knew Eric and considered him a friend.
I was there when the accident happened.
I met Eric's dad at Pack to help spread Eric's ashes.
Eric was a very talented and special young man.
I miss Eric and think of him often even until this very day.
May God Bless Eric.
...state-of-the-art towing safety device.Peter Birren
2002 - Pat Denevan is using a "nose line" as an automatic release with great success... also see Dave Broyles' note below.
Just as long as...(I have the type I can loop on my thumb and slide my hand in to release (break handle type with no handle))
...you don't try to release it under load. And I can't imagine anybody would be stupid enough to try something like that - especially after having read the owner's manual.Diev Hart - 2011/07/14 17:19:12 UTC
I have had issues with them releasing under load. So I don't try to release it under a lot of load now.
Any time you see anything clunky looking on an aircraft you can be one hundred percent POSITIVE that it's the product of some low double digit IQ shithead like Bobby who really doesn't give a rat's ass about the glider or the person underneath it.Steve Seibel - 2013/12/19 18:27:53 UTC
Thanks for posting, Lockout. It may be clunky and uncool to fly around with extra hardware on your down tube...
Sure Steve. It sure SEEMS like that - to people who have their heads perpetually stuck way up their asses and can't be bothered to either think or read the accounts of lockout fatalities before USHGA finishes doctoring them....but it sure seems like the bicycle brake / spinnaker shackle release is the easiest to find and activate in a hurry.
Sure it does, aeroexperiments. Especially when you meticulously ignore all the work people who give flying fucks about what they're doing...Seems the best option for dealing with all possible situations...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306300488/John Glime - 2009/04/13 18:09:32 UTC
Salt Lake City
There is one person who has put more thought and time into releases than anyone. That person is Tad. He explains the pros and cons to every release out there. I gave you the link to more release information than the average person could ever digest, and I didn't get a thank you. Just you bitching that we aren't being constructive. What more could you want? He has created something that is a solution, but no one is using it... apparently you aren't interested either. So what gives??? What do you want us to tell you? Your concerns echo Tad's concerns, so why not use his system? Every other system out there has known flaws.
Fuck slack line. It's a virtual nonissue and it's not worth talking about until the sport gets it shit together on taut line....including needing to release a slack towline for some reason.
Yeah. You went up on stupid crap equipment...Though I had one experience where as the G's built quickly in a lockout, it took some real effort to raise my hand to the down tube to hit the release.
Yeah, go a head and touch it. Then continue deluding yourself into believing that...PS it's a great idea to touch each of your releases and say "I know where my releases are" as part of your preflight aerotow checklist, before you signal the tug to go.
...I'm not gonna fall totally out of range of it.Carlos Weill - 2008/11/30 19:24:09 UTC
On June of 2008 during a fast tow, I noticed I was getting out of alignment, but I was able to come back to it. The second time it happen I saw the tug line 45 deg off to the left and was not able to align the glider again I tried to release but my body was off centered and could not reach the release. I kept trying and was close to 90 deg. All these happen very quickly, as anyone that has experienced a lock out would tell you. I heard a snap, and then just like the sound of a WWII plane just shut down hurdling to the ground, only the ball of fire was missing. The tug weak link broke off at 1000ft, in less than a second the glider was at 500ft.
Really?Davis Straub - 2013/12/19 20:37:10 UTC
It's always there in the same spot and easy to get to:
http://ozreport.com/goodies.php
...you're very happy with the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now.Davis Straub - 2011/07/30 19:51:54 UTC
I'm very happy with the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now.
...they've been perfecting aerotowing for twenty years and yet they have...Paul Tjaden - 2011/07/30 15:33:54 UTC
Quest Air has been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly twenty years.
...no chance of getting to it when they really need to. And even when they have the luxury of tons of altitude and can actually get to it...Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC
I got clobbered and rolled hard right in a split second. I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
...it won't work if it has any pressure on it.Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
But of course the Quallaby/Davis stuff IS. People are CONSTANTLY raving about it.Years ago I aerotowed with the same setup used by Lockout. Common in Australia. Cane be used for car or aerotowing. Not a great system.
