instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30534
Training in Phoenix

Mike Bilyk - 2013/12/27 07:23:42 UTC

Tom, here's a few facts for you.

Oh good. FACTS on The Jack Show. This should be good.

I was there in the LZ listening to the whole thing play out between you and Mark. Guess you don't remember that one being crazy, delusional and who knows what else...

I don't know what else. I don't even know which party or parties you're accusing of making the whole thing crazy, delusional and who knows what else.

You are a PISS POOR pilot and run your mouth like you are some kind of expert, giving your horrible advise to anyone making yourself look like an even bigger jackass then you already are.

Has he ever given anybody horrible ADVISE in the course of signing him off for a discipline that's gotten his arm broken in four places and his hang gliding career ended?

You are in fact hurting the sport of hang gliding by talking and posting the garbage that you do.

- How? Hasn't virtually everyone on that forum been through an excellent USHGA certified instructional program in which he's learned the fundamentals such that he's able to distinguish garbage air, launch and landing situations, flying techniques, and advice?

- And I just ran a skim of your 67 posts to date and didn't notice you warning anyone of and debunking any of Tom's horrible advice.

- Why do you think the sport so pathetically corroded, rotten, weak that an individual can hurt it to any measurable extent by posting garbage? Would baseball be significantly hurt if some asshole got on a forum and advised gripping the bat at the thick end?

Sit back and learn a thing or two before you run your mouth.

And don't forget to go through the archives and take advantage of the wisdom of Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney - two of The Jack Show's most respected and highly regarded contributors.

I and A LOT of other people don't post much on here because of jackass' like yourself.

- The plural of "jackass" is NOT "jackass'".
- Interesting choice of a disparaging term for people on that forum.
- Given that this is a self regulated sport wouldn't jackasses posting there be the absolute BEST reason for a lot of people to post a lot?
- So what you're saying is that The Jack Show is dominated by jackasses. Big fucking surprise.
- And who would be most responsible for that state of affairs?

And here we are at the end of a post that started off with:

Tom, here's a few facts for you.

And, strangely, we don't seem to have heard any actual FACTS. For actual facts our best shot so far is:

Tom Emery - 2013/12/24 15:49:48 UTC
San Diego

Bought a hang glider from Mark at Sonora Wings. He was selling it for someone else. The glider had a frayed wire at the kingpost pulley. Had I not spotted this upon inspection he would have sold me the glider with an obvious problem.

He agreed to order a new wire (at no cost). Six weeks went by. I called him several times. He finally got the wire. Guess what? He ordered the wrong wire.

I'd had enough. I had Rob (High Adventure) order the right wire. It was ordered and installed in under a week. Then I had an issue with reimbursement from Mark.

And it's a real safe bet that THOSE are facts because neither Mark nor you - a witness to the interaction - has made the slightest hint of a challenge to that account.

Tad Eareckson - 2013/12/26 22:04:07 UTC

And I wonder who his instructor was/is.

Oops.

Michael Bilyk - 89463 - H4 - 2012/01/15 - Rob McKenzie - AT FL ST TFL 360 AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC - TAND INST

I already knew who his instructor was/is. No surprise there either.

Soarcerer - 2013/12/27 08:00:28 UTC

Hey Guys,

I'm really sorry I caused a ruckus, certainly didn't mean to.

You didn't cause ruckus. You asked some perfectly reasonable questions and got some responses.

I do understand that people are going to have a variety of opinions and experiences. I did ask, so I guess it's my fault for bringing people out.

Curse you for all eternity.

Compared to other forums I post on, people do seem to get along pretty well here from what I've seen, hoping that continues. One thing I'll always do is come to this forum and ask questions before trying a new area or school.

People getting along well is generally an indication of one of two things at opposite ends of the spectrum. Either the sport:
- and people in it have their shit totally together and are all on the same page; or
- is a fucking disaster area and the people who know that and are trying to do something about it have all been silenced.

If the former were the case it's unlikely that you'd have kicked off this topic because it wouldn't have made much difference which program you went through for the training you want.

Mark - I'll give you a call perhaps tomorrow.

Good luck, dude. We tried to warn you.

I did some scooter towing up to about a hundred feet in the Seattle area this past summer, really enjoyed the flying.

And thousands of people really enjoyed tandem flights in British Columbia with Jon Orders. That doesn't necessarily tell you anything really important.

I'd like to practice foot-launching because we have eleven hundred foot plus sites in the Seattle area, a couple of which are H2 sites but I feel that I need more practice. There are good hundred foot training hills in Spokane which I also trained on this past summer but those are shut down until about April. Perhaps maybe I should have mentioned this, but I'd love to find one to five hundred foot hills to train and launch from.

You can develop all the skills you need to safely fly a high site from a hundred foot hill or tow - given suitable conditions and a brain dead easy LZ. And if you're a Hang Two - which...

H2 in training

...you are - you should be fully prepared/qualified for high flights anyway.

I know there's one in Vegas but no instructor, any instructors here want to volunteer for Vegas over a weekend?

Probably not. But don't worry - there are plenty of really top notch people in that neck of the woods who'd really love to help you out. Just make sure to count your legs on the way in and match that on your way out to ensure you haven't left anything behind.

Thanks again for the replies.

Not all the replies are over there on The Jack Show.

[Steve Davy]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30534
Training in Phoenix

Mark Knight - 2013/12/27 16:10:39 UTC

Check out John Matylonek at Oregon Hang gliding.

OK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjzHl7SV-3E


John doesn't teach hook-in checks. Big fucking suprise!

I spent a day there a few years ago, and he has an awesome 60 to 100 foot training hill near Corvalis. He is also an excellent instructor.

He's an incompetent asshole just like you are, Mark.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30534
Training in Phoenix

Zeph - 2013/12/28 13:21:18 UTC
Iowa

I've had personal contact with Mark, and I'll vouch for his character. He has always been very helpful and professional. So here's a vote on Marks behalf...

I've had a lot of written correspondence with Mark - and with an eyewitness to the end of a standard aerotow weak link induced end to the hang gliding career of one of his victims.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TUGS/message/942
weak link material question

Mark Knight - 2008/04/21 21:45:52 UTC

Can someone tell me if they have seen or used the white line with the green stripe that they sell at Cableas Sporting goods for Aero-tow weak link.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TUGS/message/935

Tad Eareckson - 2008/04/23 11:06:57 UTC

If you must use the 130 pound Cortland Greenspot, a double loop on the end of the bridle is a lot better one-size-fits-all than a single.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TUGS/message/943

Mark Knight - 2008/04/25 15:05:46 UTC

One more question on weak link strength.
If we are using 130 lb test.
Does the weak link strength increase by multiples of 130 by the number of strands.

I have read moustraps. All info is good.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TUGS/message/946

Tad Eareckson - 2008/04/25 17:45:42 UTC

I get about 128 to 147 for a single loop, 200 for a double, and 359 for a triple.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Flyhg - 2011/08/28 12:26:18 UTC

I believe that the 1.5 G thing is something Tad made up.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32824
Weaklink testing

Mark Knight - 2013/07/04 13:47:57 UTC

My calculations and test suggest the 200 lb. is right for me. I weigh 185 pounds, fly a T2 154 (75 lbs), and my harness fully loaded is 35 pounds. Total all up flying weight is 185 + 75+ 35 = 295 lbs. Times 1.4 = 413. I use Pro tow barrel release so divide by 2 = 206.5. I feel the White and purple is a good fit for me.

If that motherfucker has a half ounce worth of character he ripped it off from somebody else.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30464
Brain Box and Helmet Articles.

Fred Wilson - 2013/12/13 18:39:00 UTC

Great (albeit long) article that came out this month from Outside magazine titled, "After The Crash."
This article is not meant to discuss the pro's or con's for helmet usage with flying, but just to keep us all a little more informed.

http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness/injury-prevention/After-the-Crash.html

For more on helmets, check out:

Building a Better Brain Bucket.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/snow-sports/snow-sport-helmets/Building-a-Better-Brain-Bucket.html

Dave Hopkins - 2013/12/13 23:30:28 UTC

This is a great article. A bit scary. It points out what I suspected about all traditional helmets using only EPS foam and a hard shell . These helmets are basically crap.
They are poorly designed and the helmet industry knows it but they have no good reason to do better because the ASTM standards are minimal crap and to make and advertise their helmets as better would open them to being sued and they would lose! so they only advertise style.
This means when it comes to really getting the best protection for our brains we need to do our own research. There is a company that are building helmet Linings that address all 4 types of impact > low and high impact , multiple impacts and rotational forces. Starting in 2014. We will have better helmets in the future. Obviously we are still learning how to build better helmets but it's a start.
Speaking of style , I've always suspected that those helmets with the long point backs could get driven into our spine if we get whacked by the nose.
This was the cause of the trauma to the UK pilot in a recent accident report. You could be next! Get rid of those things. Use faired helmets that have a wide back that would spread the force over the back . MY OPINION .

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27736
Increase in our USHpA dues

Mark G. Forbes - 2012/12/20 06:21:33 UTC

We're re-working the accident reporting system, but again it's a matter of getting the reports submitted and having a volunteer willing to do the detail work necessary to get them posted. There are also numerous legal issues associated with accident reports, which we're still wrestling with. It's a trade-off between informing our members so they can avoid those kinds of accidents in the future, and exposing ourselves to even more lawsuits by giving plaintiff's attorneys more ammunition to shoot at us.

Imagine a report that concludes, "If we'd had a procedure "x" in place, then it would have probably prevented this accident. And we're going to put that procedure in place at the next BOD meeting." Good info, and what we want to be able to convey. But what comes out at trial is, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client suffered injury because USHPA knew or should have known that a safety procedure was not in place, and was therefore negligent and at fault." We're constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention.

http://www.ushpa.aero/safety.asp
USHPA Safety Program

USHPA SAFETY AWARENESS CREDO

I promise to respect the choice to fly, conditions to fly, my equipment, & my responsibility to others.

To protect the sport, the places I fly, the freedoms I enjoy, & the people in this free-flight community.
I am a FOCUSED PILOT

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 08:24:31 UTC

Thought I already answered that one... instead of quoting myself (have a look back if you don't believe me), I'll just reiterate it.

I don't advocate anything.
I use what we use at the flight parks. It's time tested and proven... and works a hell of a lot better than all the other bullshit I've seen out there.

But...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.
Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink. They changed their tug's link and they don't just pass the stuff out either. If you'd like to know more about it... go ask them.

...now Morningside has decided they're happy with a weak link 54 percent heavier than what "we" use. So...

- What characteristics of the two hundred pound weak link do you think it was that brought Morningside the increased level of happiness they now enjoy?

- Why do you think it is that other aerotow operations don't share in the happiness that Morningside has decided upon?

- Why would anybody be happy with some bullshit out there that only works 46 percent as well as what we use?

- Do you think that...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

...a million convenience loving comp pilots with no concern for the safety of the tug pilots got to them somehow?

- I'm assuming Morningside was previously included in "we". What's its status now?

To what did they change their tug's weak link? Back up to the double loop they assumed blew at 1040 pounds towline and was a good rule of thumb for a tandem before they found that a tow mast breakaway designed to break away at the same tension as the double loop would break away at the same tension as the double loop?

Why do we need to go ask them? I was under the impression that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

...you were the go-to guy on aerotowing issues. What could they possibly understand that you don't? Or is this purely a subjective happiness Ginger / Mary Ann thing that really can't be defined?

If it's just a Ginger / Mary Ann thing how come the individual pilot can't decide what he's happy with?

130lb greenspot (greenspun?) cortland fishing line.

Which is it? I would've thunk that the go-to guy on aerotowing issues would be a lot more certain about the name of the material constituting the focal point of his safe towing system.

In stock at Quest, Highland, Eastern Shore, Kitty Hawk Kites, Florida Ridge, and I'm pretty sure Wallaby, Lookout and Morningside.

You think Morningside's still got it? They decided they were happy with the two hundred. And there are so many other operations totally enthralled with 130 because it's a proven system that works and has an extremely long track record. Seems to me like there'd have been a major redistribution of resources.

Not sure what Tracy up at Cloud Nine uses, but I'll put bets on the same.

I wouldn't be too hasty on that. Right after Zack Marzec's 130 increased the safety of the towing operation Trisa up at Cloud 9 deleted all references to weak link strength from the USHGA SOPs.

Did I miss any?

Well, now that you mention it... Mark Knight of Sonora Wings...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32824
Weaklink testing

Mark Knight - 2013/07/04 13:47:57 UTC

My calculations and test suggest the 200 lb. is right for me. I weigh 185 pounds, fly a T2 154 (75 lbs), and my harness fully loaded is 35 pounds. Total all up flying weight is 185 + 75+ 35 = 295 lbs. Times 1.4 = 413. I use Pro tow barrel release so divide by 2 = 206.5. I feel the White and purple is a good fit for me.

...has gone with what T** at K*** S****** advised him to early in 2008 and Quest...

Mark Dowsett - 2013/07/04 21:41:52 UTC

I left Quest with some of the towmeup.com material when I was there in April and they were going to do testing as well. I'm not sure what they are now using.

...seems to have gotten a bit tight lipped about what they're using.

Is it clear what I mean by "We"?

No, not in the least. The picture has been getting pretty fuzzy this past year or two.

I didn't make the system up.

Yeah, we know...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/13 19:09:33 UTC

It was already worked out by the time I arrived.

It was already made up - sorry, "worked out" - by the time you arrived.

And I'm not so arrogant...

Oh no. Really hard to imagine anyone...

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 19:22:18 UTC

Of course not... it's Asshole-ese.

Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals. I just buried my friend and you're seizing the moment to preach your bullshit? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!

I can barely stand these pompus asswipes on a normal day.

...thinking of you as the least bit arrogant.

...to think that my precious little ideas are going to magically revolutionise the industry.

So you have some precious little ideas that you think COULD magically revolutioniSe (with your pretentious little spelling of the word) The Industry. So you think that The Industry has some serious shortcomings - which, when The Industry is aviation - translate to needless crashes, injuries, deaths. But you haven't shared a whisper of what these precious little ideas are with the hang gliding public because you're much too humble. And you really despise...

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC

I just buried my friend and you want me to have a nice little discussion about pure speculation about his accident so that some dude that's got a pet project wants to push his theories?

Deltaman loves his mouth release.
BFD

I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.

AT isn't new. This stuff's been worked on and worked over for years and thousands upon thousands of tows. I love all these egomaniacs that jump up and decide that they're going to "fix" things, as if no one else has ever thought of this stuff?

But back to the root of my anger... speculation.
Much like confirmation bias, he's come here to shoehorn his pet little project into a discussion. Please take your snake oil and go elsewhere.

Tune him up?
Yeah, sorry... no.

...anyone who isn't as humble as you are and puts his precious little ideas for improving things up in the air and out for public scrutiny.

There are far smarter people than me working this out.

Working WHAT out? Are you telling us that after about a quarter century from the time the Dragonfly first got off the ground there's anything significant about aerotowing that hasn't been thoroughly worked out and perfected? What are our vulnerabilities? Shouldn't we muppets be informed of these totally unknown/unpredictable issues in the course of our training?

I know, I've worked with them.

Well if you're not all that smart - and, trust me, you're one of the most incredibly stupid pieces of shit I've ever gotten to know in this sport - how are you able to differentiate smart people from your fellow snake oil salesmen?

(Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit... for example.)

But Bobby...

http://ozreport.com/3.066
Weaklinks

Davis Straub - 1999/06/06

During the US Nationals I wrote a bit about weaklinks and the gag weaklinks that someone tied at Quest Air. A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.

...is totally incapable of understanding that a heavy glider weak link is totally incapable of overriding the strength of the tug's weak link and doesn't present more danger to the tug if the number of people under the glider is one instead of two. And those are concepts that you were able to grasp...

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

No, I'm not being nice. No, I do not feel the need to be nice. You're trying to convince people to be less safe. I don't want to be on the other end of the rope when someone listening to this drivel smashes in.

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Tad Eareckson - 2008/11/24 06:16:08 UTC

Would someone - Brian, Janni, Lauren, ANYONE - PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE explain to me how the tug's ass is endangered by a double loop ONLY when it's on a SOLO glider but not at all when it's on a TANDEM?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins... I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/20 22:25:38 UTC

Something to bear in mind... the tug's weaklink is three strand.
For clarity... A normal single loop weaklink would be considered two. A tandem double loop is considered four.
In the tandem setup, the "weaklink" in the system is at the tug end, not the glider.

...eventually. That makes you one of the smartest Dragonfly drivers I know.

And...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22212
So long guys

Rick Cavallaro - 2011/06/21 04:34:17 UTC

I couldn't agree more. I always felt Jim was one of the most intelligent and level headed posters here.

...you're telling us that you don't have enough of the deep respect from the hang gliding community you need for your ideas to revolutionize The Industry?

Hell, you've already revolutionized The Industry...

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.

It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

Ok, keyboard in hand.
I've got a bit of time, but I'm not going to write a dissertation... so either choose to try to understand what I'm saying, or (as is most often the case) don't.
I don't care.

Here's a little bit of bitter reality that ya'll get to understand straight off. I won't be sugar coating it, sorry.
You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.
I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.
And yes. It is my call. PERIOD.
On tow, I am the PIC.

Now, that cuts hard against every fiber of every HG pilot on the planet and I get that.
Absolutely no HG pilot likes hearing it. Not me, not no one. BUT... sorry, that's the way it is.
Accept it and move on.
Not only can you not change it, it's the law... in the very literal sense.

You've invented some total fiction about the goddam stupid gas driver being the Pilot In Command of the aircraft he's paid to haul up and all the useless twats in this sport let you get away with it. And if you can get away with something that outrageous and despicable exactly what twisted little ideas of yours are you afraid you won't be able to implement?

In the early Eighties...

Gil Dodgen - 1983/05

Editorial

A NOTE ON TOWING

The early days of hang gliding were marred by numerous towing accidents. During this period this aspect of our sport established a hopelessly bad reputation. And, indeed, last year, as you may have noted in Doug Hildreth's recent accident review, there was a towing fatality by a totally inexperienced Texas pilot.

Some time ago I received a series of four articles on a new towing system from Texas experimenter and inventor Donnell Hewitt. I ran the first in the series of four articles. Editors learn from experience and if I could roll back the calendar I would run all four at once in condensed form. In fact, what happened was that the first article - which made seemingly outrageous claims without outlining the actual technique or hardware - inflamed the then towing establishment. It seems that today's innovators become tomorrow's conservatives so I was bombarded with calls, some from the USHGA Board, telling me that this Mr. Hewitt was totally inexperienced, that he didn't know what he was talking about, and that I was contributing to the possible injury and death of unknown multitudes of innocent hang glider pilots.

I am not a tow pilot, and although Donnell's system made sense to me I was forced to discontinue the series. The essence of his system was a double bridle that connected to the glider and to the pilot. This system would thus pull the pilot back on line in the event that the glider was inadvertently turned off course from behind the vehicle. This would produce a self-correcting system avoiding the infamous "lockout" the factor which seemed to make towing so dangerous.

Well, it appears that Mr. Hewitt's system not only works but, as I've been told by pilots who have made literally thousands of land tows with it, it works beyond all the most optimistic expectations. One pilot told me, "It is virtually impossible to lock out even if one tries."

The possibilities are obviously incredible if a safe, standardized towing technique can be established. The sport of hang gliding at this point is essentially limited by the availability of flying sites. With land tow the entire country is opened up, and as we have seen by Willi Muller and Bruce Case's world class cross country flights over flat land, the potential is unlimited. In fact, there are certain safety advantages to flying over flat land. The turbulence created by jagged terrain is avoided and the dreaded downwind turn into the hill is eliminated.

In upcoming issues we will try to supply as much information as possible on this new aspect of the sport. Those with experience are invited to contact us about possible articles.

However, any new technique or equipment always produces unforseen problems. Towing must be approached with the most thoughtful and conservative attitude. As Garry Whitman pointed out to me recently, the only problem he has had has been with experienced pilots who won't listen to his instructions. And please remember, the equipment and methods described in this publication are based on the experience of the authors only and are not endorsed or recommended by the USHGA or Hang Gliding magazine.

With the kind permission of Donnell Hewitt we will publish the remaining three installments of his Skyting series in upcoming issues.

...Donnell Hewett - who had no clue as to what he was talking about - came up with a bunch of totally insane ideas...

- "center of mass" bridle which would pull the pilot back on line in the event that the glider was inadvertently turned off course and made it virtually impossible to lock out - even if one tried

- infallible one G weak link to prevent the lockouts the center of mass bridle missed and keep the glider from climbing hard into near stall situations

- reliable release within easy reach

...and with them revolutionized the industry and precipitated the injuries and deaths of known multitudes of idiot hang glider "pilots". And he was able to do pretty much all of that using a typewriter, paper, Xerox copier, envelopes, stamps to tell people stuff they wanted to hear. So I don't know what's holding you back from getting more of your precious little ideas circulated enough to revolutionize The Industry.

Hell, look what you were able to accomplish with landings:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.

Christopher LeFay - 2012/03/15 05:57:43 UTC

January's canonization of Rooney as the Patron Saint of Landing was maddening. He offered just what people wanted to hear: there is an ultimate, definitive answer to your landing problems, presented with absolute authority. Judgment problems? His answer is to remove judgment from the process - doggedly stripping out critical differences in gliders, loading, pilot, and conditions. This was just what people wanted - to be told a simple answer. In thanks, they deified him, carving his every utterance in Wiki-stone.

So c'mon, Jimmy. Tell us what some of your precious little ideas are.

You tell us:

And I'm not so arrogant to think that my precious little ideas are going to magically revolutionise the industry.
There are far smarter people than me working this out.
I know, I've worked with them.
(Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit... for example.)

So...

- Who are some of these people who are far smarter than you working this out?

- Why did they tell you they have no interest in you helping them work this out?

- If they're far smarter than you and have told you they have no interest in you helping them work this out why do you continue to cling to your precious little ideas?

- Are these people so much smarter than you that you're incapable of understanding why your precious little ideas suck?

- If you're not smart enough to understand why your precious little ideas suck then how good an idea is it for you to be inventing and dictating policy to us weekend warrior muppets while violating the crap out of FAA aerotowing regulations every time you go up with a glider behind you and condemning the statements and work of T** at K*** S******?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30564
Near miss incidents and accidents

Mikkel Krogh - 2013/12/30 10:43:53 UTC

A new group on Facebook related to hang gliding incidents and accidents only. The purpose is to provide a platform for fact based information, analyzing and discussing and most important of all: continuously learn from each other's mistakes, so we can make our sport even safer - especially for those with less experience.

Rules are defined and enforced to make sure learning is given absolute priority.

At the moment the group is open. By 1st of April it will be closed, so only members can see and create posts.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/hangglidingaccidents/
Hang gliding near miss incidents and accidents

A new group on Facebook related to hang gliding incidents and accidents only.

There's no such thing as a hang gliding accident.

The purpose is to provide a platform for fact based information, analyzing and discussing...

So the precise opposite of what the national organizations, magazines, clubs, commercial operations, mainstream forums are doing. Pretty fucking obviously 'cause you're starting this group instead of participating in an existing entity.

...and most important of all: continuously learn from each other's mistakes...

There is NOTHING to be learned from any of this shit. If someone screws a pooch and slams in somebody else did the exact same thing decades ago and the issue has been discussed ad nauseam. What we need to really look it are the instructors, organizations, policy makers and implementers.

...so we can make our sport even safer...

You have to really bend over backwards NOT to make this eternally degrading disaster area "even" safer. Making it more dangerous is what takes REAL creativity.

...especially for those with less experience.

Those with less experience are our easiest targets. After their first weekend at Lockout, Quest, Windsports you can pretty much write them off permanently.

Rules are defined and enforced to make sure learning is given absolute priority.

Again... Pretty much the precise opposite of Standard Operating Procedure.

At the moment the group is open.

Well let's not leave it open TOO long.

By 1st of April it will be closed, so only members can see and create posts.

SUPER IDEA, Mik! Only those people who get on board within this three month window should be able to contribute to and benefit from the collective wisdom here. And fuck all today's sixteen-year-olds who didn't get their shit together soon enough.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/hangglidingaccidents/
Hang gliding near miss incidents and accidents[/quote]

This group is about near miss incidents and accidents related to hang gliding. The purpose with this group is to provide a platform for:
- providing fact based information
- analyzing and discussion
- share learnings

The core values of this group include openness and mutual respect. Strict moderation is applied to ensure the following rules are complied with:
- information provided shall be based on fact
- providing information is always appreciated
- any statement must be based on facts and proper analysis
- any criticism must be constructive (it must be possible to learn from it)
- liability (guilt and blame) is not to be discussed (as only very little learning can be captured from it)

The core values of this group include openness and mutual respect.

- Are you sure? Do you think you have a good enough grip on who the membership is to know that those will be core values? I've been dealing with this sport for over a third of a century and I've found the precise opposite to be the case.

- Fuck MUTUAL RESPECT. The people in this sport deserving any respect can be counted on one's fingers and maybe a few of the toes on one foot. The absolute worst and most dangerous thing you can do in this sport is treat somebody with respect who merits the opposite. I one hundred percent guarantee you that you're gonna get assholes who deserve to be in prison for manslaughter in here using that "mutual respect" bullshit as cover and a base for launching attacks.

- any criticism must be constructive (it must be possible to learn from it)

If you're not calling pigfuckers like Dr. Trisa Tilletti and Sam Kellner pigfuckers you're wasting your time.

- liability (guilt and blame) is not to be discussed (as only very little learning can be captured from it)

Cool. So Steve Wendt can come in here after signing off a Three in blatant violation of the USHGA rating requirement which states:

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

have his student run off a cliff without his glider over eight years ago, continue violating the SOPs, maintain that he's doing everything right, and get a lifetime pass for his past, current, and future criminal negligence.

Anybody wanna discuss Jon Orders and the Vancouver Sun? He was supposed to have had a six day trial on two felony charges starting over two months ago on 2013/10/22 and nobody's heard of him since the end of April. Guess British Columbia didn't want any publicity that would reflect poorly on their tourist industry and the fine Canadian hang gliding organization training and qualifying the ride operators.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/11 18:59:06 UTC

Storm in a teacup.

I did a demo for someone that was listening to Tad's drivel one day.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJGUJO5BjnA


http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16384
Tow Release Malfunction

Jim Rooney - 2010/03/26 20:54:43 UTC

Bent pin releases are indeed very very reliable. But 100%? Nope. It's exceptionally rare, but they jam. All mechanical things do.

I had them hang a barrel release from the ceiling. From that release, I had a rope with a loop. The loop was just a few inches above the floor.
You stand on the loop, then activate the release.
Don't take my word for it, go try it.

Now, I pro tow with a 130lb weaklink.

Good.

I'm 160lbs soaking wet.

Either the same or close to what Zack Marzec was. That means in the same scenario you'll end up equally dead. Cool!

The protow cuts the force seen by either side of the bridal in 1/2, so I'm overloading the release with over 2X's it's achievable load.

You're "overloading" the release beyond the value of the piece of shit fishing line that dumped your idiot buddy into a fatal tailslide, whipstall, and tumble when he was trying to ride out a thermal and is illegally light for any glider with a max certified operating weight over 325 pounds by a factor of 1.23.

This same piece of shit release is used on the solo comp gliders Russell Brown tells to go to 400 pounds towline when he's unable to get them airborne at 260.

It's also used as a secondary for all tandem flights where it also sees half of 400 - around or off the bottom of the legal range - or 1.25 times your test load or 1.54 times Rooney Link.

And for most of the history of that bent pin piece of shit - before USHGA, Matt, Trisa gutted then deleted equipment requirements - it was legally required to be able to handle twice weak link. For me flying pro toad at the top of the legal range that would be 640 pounds direct load or four times what you delivered on your torture test.

I have no fear of bent pins.

Or:
- foot launching tandem gliders without out hook-in checks
- the Wallaby piece o' shit that killed Mike Haas
- the standard aerotow weak link that just whipstalled and killed your idiot buddy
- some idiot fucking tug driver like you or Corey Burk who thinks he can fix whatever's going on back there by giving the glider the rope
- ever being required to adhere to FAA aerotowing regulations or being held accountable for anything

You're an extremely brave and admirable person.

Why aren't straight pins used?

Because putting them into circulation would be an admission that Bobby and all the other assholes in The Industry are total douchebags incapable of understanding grade school level principles of science.

That's easy. They can't be used with anything but thin lines.
They also can't be made with anything but thin lines.

- And it's always preferable to go with fat heavy stuff in aeronautical applications.

- So tell me about some of the problems straight pinners are encountering because they can't be used or made with anything but thin lines.

- Really? Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt was able to incorporate heavy junk in and butcher the performance of the straight pin / fat tube garbage...



...he sells. And it looks like it would be pretty easy to stuff in a thick rope with no weak link on it so that should make you pretty happy.

Tad loves to forget that I've actually gotten one of his to jam.

- No. Tad loves to remember that you can and do fuck up anything and everything...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11288
*???tandems???*

Jim Rooney - 2009/03/29 20:32:51 UTC

Wow, didn't think I'd be taken as trying to hide anything...
No worries.... my info is all public knowledge.

Me... clip in failure 2006, Coronet Peak NZ. Extreme Air hang gliding.
(btw, everyone seems to miss the fact that it was _during_ my hang check). Yes, tandem. Passenger was fine, visited me in the hospital. Me? multiple injuries. Two and a half months in hospital.

...with which you come in contact.

- And some day Tad would LOVE to see you demonstrate how you can get the safety mechanisms of a Glock nine millimeter to fail by pointing a loaded one at your head and pulling the trigger.

NOTHING is perfect kids.

Right. Jim is able to install a cambered batten in a sail upside down and backwards so we're just as well off flying mid Seventies gliders that use battens that can be inserted with either end leading.

Straight pin releases can work...

Oh. They CAN work? Is there a single record of one them jamming in flight? Or on the ground on anyone whose sole purpose wasn't to sabotage it?

...but they're not the panacea that these guys are claiming.

And the T2C isn't the panacea that Wills Wing is claiming because Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney can launch them unhooked; oscillate, stall, tumble them; crash them on landing; overshoot fields with them. So we should trade them all in for paragliders. We should always do everything possible to minimize safety margins and performance capabilities.

But I digress... You were "calculating" that your test was simulating 640 pounds of towline tension instead of the 320 pounds it was 'cause you're totally incapable of handling grade school level logic and arithmetic. You multiplied by TWO when you should've multiplied by ONE.

So when you say:

There are far smarter people than me working this out.

that can be an accurate statement with the people you're talking about having IQs of about fifty - which is, in fact, the case.

And it wasn't any of those people far smarter than you working this out or Davis, Jim Gaar, or Brad Gryder who caught and called you on the glaring stupidity you were perpetrating on the readers. It was Zack C.

We know EXACTLY how smart the people "working this out" are based upon such indicators as:

- the appallingly shoddy work they did to begin with and the fact that the performance evolved backwards over time

- the facts that:

-- Dr. Trisa Tilletti can publish the crap they do on the Cone of Safety and wrapped and tied weak links in the national magazine and get away with it

-- nobody at any of the major operations has a fucking clue as to what actual weak link breaking strengths and towline tensions are

-- the pro toad / Rooney Link configuration that killed Zack Marzec on the afternoon of 2013/02/02 is perfectly safe and went right back up as soon as they could get what was left of him scraped off the runway

Wanna see what people with ACTUAL brains are able to accomplish in the space of a few years while you dregs are sitting around for decades with your heads up your asses talking about what geniuses you are and keeping homemade straight pin funky shit from getting airborne?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4boyXQuUIw


And many thanks to Peter Birren without whose X-Acto knife blades in a plastic tube none of that would've been possible.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=3840
[TIL] About Tad Eareckson

Orion Price - 2013/03/10 05:57:24 UTC
Northridge, California

(Today I learned) There is a guy who reads our forum every and does detailed analysis on all our comments. This guy has Rafferty amounts of extra time to just be an idiot and not fly/work/live.

In place of adding to our discourse he bought a website in which he makes comments about our comments. That's just weird.

And, of course, nobody on the Grebloville or any other websites makes comments about anyone else's comments. That would just be weird. Everybody just posts an original comment and never interacts with anyone else. That's totally normal.

Apparently we are all we are all suicidal idiots and destroying the sport. Also he apparently really doesn't like NME_RIDER/LA Glide. JD to him is apparently Satan with a glider and a youtube account.

Look at this shit. He literaly goes through every comment and makes his own comment on his own webside:

http://www.kitestrings.org/topic10-310.html

Yeah, did you actually READ that one? I've got three quotes from Satan with a glider and a YouTube account:

- one reporting on a guy horribly and critically injured as a result of a landing attempt in one of those boulder fields that's supposed to be a no brainer after you've perfected your flare timing before you get your Hang Two.

- two statements in alignment with my (and Steve Pearson's) position on landing - the latter one denouncing Rooney as being full of shit

I know that haters' gonna hate. But what is with weird antisocial behavior?

I dunno... Here's the last we ever heard of Tony Diablo:

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=3376
Status of Pilot Injured June 30th - Please pass this around!

NMERider - 2012/08/02 23:52:18 UTC

And the good news is that Diablo is heading for a rehab center in Ventura very soon.

So what kind of weird antisocial motherfucker has Rafferty amounts of extra time just to write a load of misleading and false crap about T** at K*** S****** and not enough to write a single comment about one of his flying buddies who's probably gonna spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair and a lot of pain and the circumstances which made that all possible?

Who has the time to not go flying, but to sit around and organize and edit weird videos (rafferty)? Who has the time to register websites and make their own PHPBB dedicated to every comment on the SHGA? Weirdos, Y U NO JUST FLY?

I so do wish you assholes had more than 0.1 percent of your posts interesting enough to be worth commenting on.

I ain't even mad. This is just FYI

So why did anybody NEED this information? I'm just an antisocial weirdo who doesn't fly and doesn't have anything legitimate to say. So what's you're point in starting this thread?

Bob Kuczewski - 2013/03/10 18:20:34 UTC

I first learned about Tad Eareckson when I was Regional Director and the USHPA Board circulated a letter he had written (with intention to send?) to the FAA about some dangerous practices in hang gliding.

The Board's knee-jerk response was to try to take some kind of legal action to silence Tad. I indicated that I thought we shouldn't be sending our lawyers in as our first response, and that maybe we should have someone talk with him first. So Dennis Pagen volunteered, and I believe the matter was settled without any serious damage to the sport.

A few years later (when I was starting the US Hawks Hang Gliding Association), I actually wrote to Tad inviting him to our forum because I wanted to incorporate diverse views in our new association. Tad joined us, and for a while things were fine. But over time, it became obvious to me that he was more interested in just bashing people than trying to actually solve problems in the sport of hang gliding. For a long time, I tried to show him kindness on our forum and I gave him a lot of slack with regard to his profanity and his comments that he wished certain people would crash and kill themselves. Eventually (and for reasons that I won't full disclose here), it became necessary to ask Tad to leave the US Hawks forum, and he is currently the only person who's been completely banned from the US Hawks.

Having said all of that, I have to add that Tad has an incredible amount of energy, and I think it would be great if the sport of hang gliding could figure out how to harness it. He's done extensive work on towing releases and he has a library of photographs related to releases. I think he brings an important perspective to the sport, but his personality is so toxic that it's very difficult to gain any benefit from it. Indeed, I consider it a failing on my part that I wasn't able to help Tad get past some of his "personality" issues and become a good contributing member on the US Hawks forum.

Fuck you, Bob. I consider it a failing on MY part that it took me as long as it did to realize what a sleazy, backstabbing motherfucker you really are.

Orion Price - 2013/03/11 02:28:41 UTC

Wow, you have a lot of time on your hands.

Yeah, you already made that point in Grebloville.

Keep on crusading!

For what? The sport's as good as it can possibly get. Or at least it will be...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31432
Free* weak link tensile testing.

Orion Price - 2013/03/16 00:31:26 UTC

I have a 10kN (2,200lbf) tensile tester at my disposal. Mail me your links, and I will test them.



The * after the "free" is a stipulation. Disclose all relevant information about the link, and let me publish the data for everyone to enjoy. That's it. All it costs you is a envelope. Want to try a different knot? What to try a new material? What happens when you use two links? What about old links? You will know. Tensile tests like this are much more telling than just a material's failure or ultimate point.

I'm a west coast foot launch guy, but I've got about 20 tows at enjoy field and whitewater combined. I've seen your guy's testing contraptions. I've also glossed over Tad's color ASCII text batshit insane manifesto. But I got turned off when it was clear he doesn't know the difference between acceleration, mass, and what forces are. Maybe my machine can paint a better picture for the tow world. Also in the background of that pic is a SEM, it will be interesting to see the failure up close.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress%E2%80%93strain_curve

Send them to:
OP C/O
SHGA
P.O. Box 922303
Sylmar, CA 91392

Also allow several weeks for processing. Label your links clearly.

...once we get all those weak link test results posted.

The truth is out there my friend.

Of course it is. Pagen, Davis, Rooney, Malcolm, Trisa, Matt, Manquin, Ridgely... What more could we really need?

Stay hungry.

Eat me.

I recently make a camera boom from some carbon fiber tubing. Do you have any ideas to get a good angle?

Yeah. Stick it up your ass.
- I never took anything remotely resembling a camera up on a glider at any point in my flying career which spanned over a quarter century.
- There's absolutely nothing here to indicate that this would be a good forum on which to pose that question.
- If you WERE gonna pose that question Zack is pretty obviously our top camera guy and the obvious person to go to for a comment.
- Zack's posted a lot on camera stuff over on The Jack Show where there's obviously a much greater pool of experience.
- And how come you didn't just ask Satan with a glider and a YouTube account back at Grebloville?
- The past tense of "make" is not "make".
- And why would you be interested in talking to me after all the unprovoked shit you started writing about me 20.5 hours ago in Grebloville?

Arg, I can't post the link because I'm new.

And you're gonna stay new, motherfucker.

Google: "Carbon rod gopro"

Google: "suck my dick"

Orion Price - 2013/03/11 02:34:19 UTC

Look at the timing on this. Just five minutes and thirty-eight seconds after your fake post over here.

Bob Kuczewski - 2013/03/10 18:20:34 UTC

I first learned about Tad Eareckson when ...
Eventually... it became necessary to ask Tad to leave the US Hawks forum, and he is currently the only person who's been completely banned from the US Hawks.

I can imagine...geez. He's written a 10 page treatise about this very thread we're in now.

So why did you go to the trouble to very conspicuously edit:

...(and for reasons that I won't full disclose here)...

out from Bob's thinly-disguised-as-a-positive-statement nasty attack on T** at K*** S******? Bob's done as much as he thinks he can get away with...

miguel - 2012/05/07 17:22:51 UTC

Very poor taste, Bob.

...to wallpaper his forum and mine with the "unrepentant child molester" thing. And you didn't have time to research that in those five minutes and thirty-eight seconds. Maybe you're a bit smarter than Bob? Smart enough to know that playing that card can very easily backfire?

Hi there Tad. I can feel you watching in.

Yeah OP, I'm still watching in, putting little puzzle pieces together, noting what you do and don't say and when you do and don't say it, documenting what sleazy tactics disingenuous assholes like you and Bob use so's I can portray your credibility for what it is any and every time the opportunity arises.

P.S. Although my first harness was a (Chris) Price stirrup I don't know that much about your father - but the facts that he raised you and hasn't very publicly and thoroughly denounced you both speak volumes.

[Tad Eareckson]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/hangglidingaccidents/
Hang gliding near miss incidents and accidents

Mikkel Krogh - 2013/12/23 14:52

This group is about near miss incidents and accidents related to hang gliding. The purpose with this group is to provide a platform for:
- providing fact based information
- analyzing and discussion
- share learnings

The core values of this group include openness and mutual respect. Strict moderation is applied to ensure the following rules are complied with:
- information provided shall be based on fact
- providing information is always appreciated
- any statement must be based on facts and proper analysis
- any criticism must be constructive (it must be possible to learn from it)
- liability (guilt and blame) is not to be discussed (as only very little learning can be captured from it)

Tad Eareckson - 2013/12/31 15:02

From The Jack Show:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30564
Near miss incidents and accidents

Mikkel Krogh - 2013/12/30 10:43:53 UTC

At the moment the group is open. By 1st of April it will be closed, so only members can see and create posts.

So what's the point of creating a resource dedicated to hang gliding safety education and then severely restricting both participation and access?

Mikkel Krogh - 2013/12/27 18:25

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn4cTQH743E


The video of this incident was published on the 16th of December 2013. It took place in Australia.
The pilot had not done an aerotow in 12 months and not before without an instructor.
The weak link had been reinforced (by 150% of normal).
The trike gets well above the horizon and the hang glider gets in the prop wash. The hang glider banks left. The pilot is able to level the wings by an input to the right. Shortly after, the wing banks to the left again. This time the pilot is not able to level the wings despite an input to the right and ends up in the lockout. The weak link breaks with the hang glider banking approximately 90 degrees. The roll continues and the hang glider is completely upside down. It accelerates and pitches up. The pilot does not pull in the base bar before reaching the maximum pitch-up. The hang glider pitches down violently. The pilot stretches his arms where the hang glider is pitched down.
The pilot was not able to see the release line when he got into problems and was therefore not able to release.

Mikkel Krogh - 2013/12/27 18:42

To learn more about aspects of the stall that follows the lockout:

http://www.facebook.com/notes/hang-gliding-near-miss-incidents-and-accidents/ryan-voights-comments-on-a-tumble-of-a-u2-in-israel-in-2012/1440580296157881
http://www.facebook.com/notes/hang-gliding-near-miss-incidents-and-accidents/ryan-voights-comments-www.facebook.com

Tad Eareckson - 2013/12/31 18:54

The weak link had been reinforced (by 150% of normal).

1. What's a "NORMAL" weak link?
- 100% of flying weight?
- The one that blew for no reason on two normally climbing gliders prior to this flight?
- Who defined 100% of flying weight as normal and what was his reasoning/justification?
- What's a "NORMAL" weak link supposed to for the pilot that an "abnormal" one won't?

2. On the afternoon of 2013/02/02 a tandem aerotow instructor took at Quest off on a dangerously compromised glider (no keel attachment, one point bridle pulling on the pilot only, nothing to keep the nose trimmed down, dangerously limited pitch control range) and when he got blasted be a thermal he knew he was getting by watching the tug he stuffed the bar as effectively as he could to ride out the surge. But his "NORMAL" weak link blew and his options for survival immediately dropped to ZERO.

3. A "NORMAL" weak link is the single most dangerous piece of crap you can install in a tow system. A competent pilot uses a one and a half to two G weak link to keep the total load on the glider from exceeding three Gs. And anything much under one and a half Gs is worse than no weak link at all.

The pilot was not able to see the release line when he got into problems and was therefore not able to release.

Plenty of people have been able to see release lines and pulls right in front their faces or elsewhere "within easy reach" and have been slammed in and killed just fine. I don't know how many more people we've gotta kill to get the point across that in real emergency situations a release actuator that requires a hand to come off the basetube and relinquish control might as well be on the moon.

Anybody who takes off with a release actuator on his downtube, shoulder, hip is gambling that nothing bad's gonna happen down low. If it does he's a passenger - quite often until the end of his association with hang gliders and life. And I'm not real interested in wasting my time talking to and about gamblers and passengers.

Until one gets a few fundamentals down - fundamentals that this sport had down forty years ago - it's totally pointless to talk about much else in towing.

Mikkel Krogh - 2013/12/28 11:43

From Southern hang gliding club:

In a recent accident the hang glider pilot, as a result of a base-bar collision during landing, swung through the control frame. His harness allowed him to move forward to the extent that his head was in front of the high aspect-ratio glider's nose plate, which his weight and momentum pulled down violently on to the back of his head / neck region. The pilot suffered serious injury.

BHPA safety Advisory:

http://www.bhpa.co.uk/pdf/safety_advisory/sa010.122013.pdf

Tad Eareckson - 2014/01/11 17:22

That tragedy was precipitated by a glider coming down where a small group of people were positioned and there are no procedures that can be written or adopted for safely landing gliders where small groups of people are positioned.

The BHPA Safety Advisory is a total crock and its author is an incompetent quack.

Whenever hands are removed from the basetube / placed on the downtubes control authority goes down the toilet and chances of crashing and serious injury - wrist, arm, shoulder, leg, head, neck - go through the ceiling.

Standup landing attempts in light, switchy, or turbulent air account for the overwhelming percentage of crashes in this sport. Wanna make it safer? Come in on wheels or skids and don't land in crappy environments that necessitate pulling off foot landings.

Mikkel Kroh - 2014/01/11 18:53

Hi Tad. Could I kindly ask you to remove this part of your comment: "BHPA Safety Advisory is a total crock and its author is an incompetent quack" from your post. Keep this one in your mind "any criticism must be constructive (it must be possible to learn from it)". Thank you. BR Mikkel

Tad Eareckson - 2014/01/11 21:39

Hi Mikkel,

I've been fighting this hang gliding competence / safety battle for a very long time and it's cost me big time - including my flying career. (I'm guessing there's no one else in this group who can make a claim like that.)

I agree that, for the most part, we shouldn't be dumping criticism on crash victims - particularly ones who've made a minor mistake or series of minor mistakes that have translated into consequences of anything like the magnitude that this one did. He already knows everything he did wrong and would do everything he could to turn the clock back to five or ten seconds prior to the end of that last approach. And I sure wish I could do that for him.

In any case, there's nothing really to be learned here. Hang gliders have been whacking and people - upright and prone but mostly upright - have been breaking necks and getting quaded and killed since the beginning of the sport. If things aren't very well under control in the final stages of landing the situation can get real ugly real fast and that's true of ANY fixed wing aircraft. Similar deal on launch.

Yes, you can kindly ask me to remove that part of my comment. But if I did the BHPA Safety Advisory would still be a total crock and its author would still be an incompetent quack - and fewer people would be aware of the threat they pose. Those understandings are the most constructive elements we can take away from this extremely unfortunate incident.

Read the Advisory:

It is believed that the best current method of minimising this danger is to ensure that landing approaches are flown on the uprights.

It is BELIEVED?! By whom? I don't believe it. Neither do some of the most highly skilled hang glider pilots on the planet - Steve Pearson and Mike Barber for example (whom, you might have noticed, haven't commented on this incident).

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.

I like what Steve Pearson does when he comes in and may adapt something like that.

Do you believe it? You wanna name a few people who believe it?

Action:
Hang Glider pilots should make landing approaches with their hands on the uprights and shoulders raised.

Where's the data that supports that recommendation? All landing that way does is crash gliders and dislocate shoulders and break downtubes, arms, and necks - and you don't see good skilled pilots landing that way. But Angus and one or two of his cronies are gonna ADVISE that 'cause that's what they BELIEVE - and it sounds good and that's the policy they've been backing and shoving down everyone's throats for decades and they're not gonna start admitting they've been wrong all along now.

Read:

http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28697
Weak links why do we use them. in paragliding.
Page 6
2010/02/11 14:25:49 UTC
Alan's letter and BHPA reply

and make a good case that Angus Pinkerton isn't an incompetent quack - at best.

If your goal here is to reduce the number of broken gliders, arms, necks you're gonna need to understand that problems never get fixed and things actually evolve backwards to the stupidity end of the scale because of highly incompetent and highly corrupt commercial operations and national organizations (USHGA, HPAC, BHPA, DHV, HGFA, NZHGPA...) with very strong interests making sure things never get fixed. And the worst possible thing we can do is treat these entities and the people controlling them with respect they no way in hell will ever deserve.

If your goal here ISN'T to reduce the number of broken gliders, arms, necks then you're wasting your, my, everybody else's time and I can go back to my little guerrilla operation (http://www.kitestrings.org) and keep saying what needs to be said and making occasional little dents.

OK, motherfucker. You deleted my last two posts and banned me without a further word. You just made an enemy for life - hopefully several.

(Lessee...

2008/12/12 - Capitol Hang Glider Association
2009/05/17 - Peter Birren Show
2009/11/10 - Jack Show
2010/02/24 - Paragliding Forum
2010/04/03 - Davis Show
2010/11/19 - Houston Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association
2011/12/14 - Bob Kuczewski Show
2012/11/01 - Rocky Mountain Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association
2014/01/11 - Mikkel Krogh Show

STILL not into double digits? And I'm not even sure I can even legitimately count that last punk operation.)

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30632
reinventing ultalight flying

Dave Hopkins - 2014/01/13 19:17:43 UTC

I have pondered how to make flying as easy and safe as possible .

And with all the effort you put into making crashing as easy and safe as possible. Where DO you find the time?

Realistically learning to foot launch, land and weight shift control is rather difficult for most people.

Nobody EVER learns to foot land safely.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

Read the threads and watch the videos.

It is supposed to be simple and cheap but it is real difficult and dangerous unless you are young and in good shape even then the success rate is low.

Foot landing is dangerous no matter who you are and serves no practical purpose. Foot launching is less dangerous 'cause you pick and, often, design the exact place, pick the moment and conditions, and use a crew for assistance and it serves a purpose of being able to exploit hills, dunes, mountains, ridges, cliffs, rough towing environments.

I've thought an easier type of wing would be a wire braced rigid wing with stick control , a cage, trike.

And I like your idea of eliminating the "r" from "ultralight". It's always to our advantage to simplify wherever possible.

You would be bungee launched and land on wheels. No running, flaring .

And, of course, no fuckin' way you could use that strategy on a conventional hang glider.

No prone flying head down close to the ground.

BULLSHIT. The danger posed by flying had down close to the ground - like birds, bats, flying squirrels, sugar gliders, pterodactyls, insects do - is nonexistent compared to flying upright.

After all, we are really into this for the flying who really gives a crap about foot launching weight shift control fly like a bird .

- No we are really into this so we can practice for landing in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place.
- I like flying like a bird. Being able to fly like a bird is a big reason a lot of people have been drawn to hang gliding.

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=743
2011 US Nationals, Big Spring, Texas

Rick Masters - 2011/08/05 23:18:20 UTC

Call me old-fashioned, I never towed. If I can't footlaunch off a mountain, I'm not interested.
Besides, what could be more boring than drifting over flat land?
But that's just me being a curmudgeon.
Have fun if you think that's what fun is.

-- Spoiled by Owens Valley

Fuck you, Rick.

High performance weight shift HGs are for a very few. A rigid with flaps and aerodynamic controls and real stability with the same or better performance could be flown by a wider range of pilots I think.

A solid Hang 2.0 could be much more easily trained to safely fly a T2C than foot land a Falcon 4.

A light weight ,easy to control ,easy to launch system that is physically easy to handle would give many more people success at this cheap light weight flying.

Hang gliders are a relative bitch to control but that issue is dwarfed by the ones of twisting the body in the control frame on one end of the scale and PIO on the other.

Maybe it's just because I am getting older plus I see lots of older people that would love to learn to fly but are not really physically able to do the whole foot launch deal.

That's why God gave us strings and wheels. Bummer that he failed to give 99 percent of the population enough in the way of brains to be able to use them.

Maybe I will build such a wing system and reinvent flying. Or at least finish my cage on my VR. I could put a cage on my B model and teach people on that.

Make sure you get permission...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.

...from Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney first. And make sure you get him to specify what you should be using for a weak link if he allows you to advance to that stage.

KSS

Definitely.