http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30603
Safety notice about blade wing basebar approaches
NMERider - 2014/01/08 01:20:11 UTC
The issue of body and hand positioning will never be settled on some 'one-size-fits-all' technique. Not in my book at any rate.
But in your book...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
NMERider - 2013/02/19 22:56:19 UTC
I will appreciate that it is the tug pilot's call as to the maximum breaking strength of any so-called weak link system and not mine.
...if a bunch of douchebag ultralight drivers...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC
I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.
...determine that the only thing they'll allow you up on is the same one-size-fits-all lockout protector...
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5529/14422573378_5385a9a99a_o.png
...that just killed one of their tandem aerotow instructor buddies that's totally cool - and fuck grade school arithmetic, common sense, and FAA aerotowing regulations.
I say, "To each, his own"...
You say "Whatever Davis and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney mandate."
...and "The right tool for the job".
Just as long as the pin's properly bent.
Have as many different arrows in your quiver or lures in your tackle box as the hunt may require.
And make sure your bows are all strung and lures are all tied on with 130 pound test fishing line because it's got a long track record and Rooney says it's time tested and proven and works a hell of a lot better than all the other bullshit he's seen out there.
Fuck you, Jonathan.
Steve Seibel - 2014/01/08 01:22:44 UTC
Guys and girls, let's collect some data.
Next time you are set up on a non-windy day--
Hook in and get some helpers to see if they can position the apex of the wing on your neck.
I'm guessing it is possible with in any harness even in a Sport 2 and certainly in anything an even slightly wider nose angle / narrower root chord than a Sport 2.
Get your helpers to take pictures to show why this is or is not possible in your glider/ harness combination.
And what are we gonna do with this data, Steve? Advise people whose necks are in range of the nose to crash less frequently and more carefully?
Comet - 2014/01/08 05:42:50 UTC
Was it not Davis Straub who hit his head so hard on the glider undersurface during a botched aerotow dolly takeoff that his head went through the sail?
Instead of into the keel where it belonged? Yes.
I nosed-in hard once (yeah, just once) and dented the keel with my helmet. Could have broken my neck, even without having the glider nose hit me in the back of the head.
Goddam right.
When you crash there's all kinds of ways you can get fucked up or killed. Nobody's talking about reengineering hang gliders for safer crash configurations and if we tried some stupid shit like that we'd probably increase crash and injury rates and severity due to inevitable weight, performance, handling compromises. Bowsprit gliders, suprone harnesses maybe - but neither of those are gonna happen to any greater extent than they are now.
There's no fixed wing aircraft that can handle dad, mom, and the kid at the landing touchdown point without a strong probability of something really ugly happening to one or more of the involved parties. Duh. And I can't think of any recommendations that aren't so blindingly obvious that mentioning them wouldn't be blindly stupid.
Clockboy - 2014/01/08 18:35:25 UTC
So Cal
Of course it would be horrible to fly the basetube into the ground while you're still fully proned out. I believe that's how Chris Muller fatally crashed, and he was a world class pilot at the top of his game.
Chris Muller fatally crashed flying at about 1.5 VNE trying to snatch a goodie bag off the top of a traffic cone. This activity was promoted by a culture that's so rabidly concerned about pilot safety that it won't permit anyone to tow up on anything heavier than 130 pound test fishing line.
Hot dogging is cool and I certainly admire those who do it well, but they know the risks.
Chris obviously didn't - until about a tenth of a second beyond the point at which his understanding could've done him some good.
For a safe conservative approach in light winds on a topless, I do prefer to be on the basetube with both hands, just like a dangerous hot dog approach.
Which is the polar opposite of the recommendation of the Pinkerton Douchebags.
The differences are in speed and body position. For a safe approach, fly a little fast for good control, but not that damn fast. I'd say a little above best glide.
OK. Now stop talking.
Even though I keep both hands on the basetube, I get upright early, well before turning onto final. That's especially important for backplate pods, but really for any harness type.
Why do you need to be upright?
The upright body position is relaxed, with feet trailing behind, maybe even dragging on the ground behind you as you skim along in ground effect. I've seen people sometimes try to get too upright, like they want their hips forward or something. That actually makes it harder to get your CG back when it's time to flare.
Why do you need to flare?
Just rock upright and relax, let your legs trail behind you.
I notice you didn't need to tell anyone to relax at any point in the fully prone phase.
Once on the deck, gradually let the bar out as you slow down. Then as soon as you reach trim speed, move both hands, one at a time as high up on the downtubes as you comfortably can without pulling or contorting, or doing anything that will upset the balance of the glider.
And, of course, there will be NO POSSIBILITY of Mother Nature doing anything that will upset the balance of the glider at this point because she recognizes your state of vulnerability and is deeply concerned about your wellbeing.
Then flare pretty quick after that.
And here's what Steve Pearson - also of So Cal - says on this issue:
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings
Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
Steve doesn't assume that Mother Nature won't be doing anything that will upset the balance of the glider and doesn't lock in to the goal of stopping on his feet.
Jim Rooney says flare one second after trim. My T2 timing seems to be about three seconds after trim.
Fuck you, your T2, and your three seconds. Jim Rooney says ONE second and he's a PROFESSIONAL PILOT who just *might* have an idea of how this stuff works. If he says punch it at one second you punch it at one second. If he says use the same fishing line on your 357 pound T2 154 that some little girl is using on her 165 pound Falcon 3 145 you fuckin' do it.
Gliders and states of tune vary, but this will give you an objective frame of reference and get you in the ballpark. So many people seem to be unaware of what hemisphere the ballpark is located in (you know who you are LOL).
What if you just flew it until it wouldn't anymore and let it roll in on the wheels?
My point is that being in an upright body position adds a lot of safety.
BULLSHIT. It does the precise opposite. How many tandems do you see landing upright and how many tandem landing crashes do hear about?
And being on the basetube, all the way until trim speed is reached, allows for a lot better control of the glider throughout the approach, and it allows you to be more sensitive to trim speed, which is the critical thing to timing your flare.
Oh! So being on the basetube all the way until trim speed is reached allows for a lot better control of the glider. And then after trim speed is reached and response starts getting mushy good control of the glider becomes much less of an issue so being up on the downtubes is highly unlikely to present any problems.
And lastly, be ready to run. Running should be in the front of your mind as you flare, not just an afterthought that you might pull out if you need it.
Any danger of tripping on one of those large rocks strewn all over the place in that narrow dry riverbed you're using as an LZ?
If you flare early or perfectly, you won't run. If you're a hair late, a couple steps makes all the difference.
The difference between what and what? A pretty much perfect foot landing and a light bonk with broken arm? Do we really wanna be trusting in our ability to execute the critical timing and the couple of steps when the stakes are that high for years worth of landings?
I'm not an instructor...
So what? Have you been reading the idiot crap that instructors are telling their students and posting? Did you read the advisory that came out of BHPA in response to this incident which is the opposite of what you're saying and most experienced and successful flyers are doing?
...so take all this with a grain of whatever.
Fuck taking stuff with grains. It either checks out on the numbers or it doesn't.
I recommend to anybody struggling with these issues to read Jim Rooney's stuff about landing if you haven't already.
Fuck Rooney and his stuff.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O
NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC
Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.
His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.
Christopher LeFay - 2012/03/15 05:57:43 UTC
January's canonization of Rooney as the Patron Saint of Landing was maddening. He offered just what people wanted to hear: there is an ultimate, definitive answer to your landing problems, presented with absolute authority. Judgment problems? His answer is to remove judgment from the process - doggedly stripping out critical differences in gliders, loading, pilot, and conditions. This was just what people wanted - to be told a simple answer. In thanks, they deified him, carving his every utterance in Wiki-stone.
He hasn't written a single word on landings than somebody else hadn't written at least thirty years ago.
Rooney doesn't do anything in the way of REAL hang glider flying. He's a malignant little coward who's only interested in self promotion and power.
REAL hang glider pilots tend not to fly tugs 'cause tugs are most needed when soaring conditions are totally awesome.
Anybody who flies a tug more than two or three weekends is the best tug pilot on the planet 'cause there's not much to it and after two or three weekends you've gotten as good as anybody can get. The challenge - and the danger - is ALL on the back end of the string.
Rooney does scooter tow instruction and tandem aerotow rides. He doesn't do foot launch tandem 'cause he knows he's too stupid to be able to figure out how make sure he's connected to his glider before he runs off the ramp and I think it's a pretty safe bet that nobody would hire him for foot launch tandem rides anyway.
He doesn't do XC - or any other kind of - competition because he'd get demolished. He'd finish in the bottom quarter - way behind a lot of the weekend warrior muppets he's always pissing all over - and the fake aura he's created for himself would be irreparably/irreversibly breeched.
Rooney's landings are all party tricks...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjHqdmUAAFo
[video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjHqdmUAAFo[/video]
...performed after scooter tow launches on putting greens in training conditions on lightly loaded gliders with a nearby windsock and lots of streamers around.
Look at his YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/j1mrooney/videos
to see what kind of flying he does.
01. Julia
- 1:56 - paraglider - tandem
02. QuadCam
- 1:19 - camera test in front yard
03. Trimmer Trick
- 0:27 - paraglider - tandem
04. An other landing example
- 0:28 - paraglider - tandem
05. Landing at FlightPark
- 0:29 - paraglider - tandem
06. Rescuing a 4x4
- 0:40 - car getting pulled out of river by truck
07. Soraya at Hensons Gap
- 0:11 - hang glider - ramp launch - somebody else
08. Hang gliding in Virginia
- 3:12 - hang glider - aerotow - tandem - sled - wheel landing
09. Towing Hang Gliders
- 1:55 - Dragonfly tow (as driver)
10. Hang Gliding in Virginia at Accomack County Airport
- 0:32 - hang glider - tandem - wheel landing gear
11. Virginia hang gliding at Accomack County Airport
- 0:33 - hang glider - tandem - wheel landing gear
12. Flying to work
- 2:35 - paraglider - solo - sled
13. Mathias Piano Man
- 0:33 - street musician
14. Landing with Sunnie at FlightPark
- 0:21 - paraglider - tandem - landing
15. Quickouts
- 0:21 - paraglider - tandem - landing - cutaway mechanisms
16. movie
- 2:19 - paraglider - tandem - tourist ride
17. aero
- 0:45 - paraglider - tandem - tourist ride
18. Afraid Of Heights
- 2:30 - paraglider - tandem - tourist ride
19. Soaring the peak
- 0:33 - paraglider - tandem - tourist ride
03 - 15.8% - non flying related
01 - 05.3% - Dragonfly
11 - 57.9% - para glider - all tandem
04 - 21.0% - hang glider - three tandem with full takeoff/landing gear, one somebody else
00 - 00.0% - hang glider - solo - Rooney
He's not gonna foot land REAL hang gliders after REAL flights in REAL conditions 'cause he'll inevitably bonk and someone will inevitably get it on video. And then...
.
With all that said, I'm sure I'll pound in next time.
Pre fucking cisely. You bloody well know that what you've just described is complex, demanding of a great deal of skill and judgment, dependent upon smooth air, and dangerous. You know that it's pretty much inevitable that you're gonna blow it now and then in the long run and that when you're most likely to blow it is gonna be when you can least afford to. And you know - just from listening to your fellow flyers - that your chances of getting seriously injured at some point as a result of this totally unnecessary stunt are pretty high.
And you're also taking a lot of the fun out of ALL of your flights by subjecting yourself to a lot of unnecessary stress and anxiety at their conclusions.
