instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30610
Carnage at Ed Levin - Oh My!
NMERider - 2014/01/08 03:05:20 UTC

Image
Image
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52357650792_27b50161cb_o.jpg

Don't Panic! The pilot was unhurt.
- What "pilot"?

- Looking at the photos it's a pretty good bet that about the only way the pilot would've been hurt would've been if the rescue had been as much of a clusterfuck as the flight was - which it was.
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/weird/Milpitas-Hang-Glider-Crashes-Into-Eucalyptus-Tree-239183901.html
Hang Glider Crashes Into Eucalyptus Tree | NBC Bay Area
Bay City News and NBC Bay Area Staff - 2014/01/08 01:59 UTC

Hang Glider Crashes Into Eucalyptus Tree

An errant hang glider pilot who became trapped in a fifty foot tree was rescued when a California Highway Patrol officer was lowered from a helicopter and brought the pilot down unhurt, authorities said, Tuesday, Jan. 7, 2014.

At 11:21 a.m. the Milpitas Fire Department responded to a call about a hang glider pilot trapped in a eucalyptus tree along a hillside at Ed Levin Park County in Milpitas, according to Milpitas spokesman Sean Simonson.

Firefighters arrived and saw the pilot stuck in the tree, which was about fifty feet high. A CHP rescue helicopter was dispatched and reached the scene at 12:30 p.m. A CHP officer was lowered by a line and reached the pilot, who was secured to the line and both were finally lowered to a road at the park. Paramedics who evaluated the pilot and found that the victim was not injured.

Rescuers say this was one of, if not the most, difficult rescues they have ever done.
Fuck them. I've done a lot more difficult and dangerous rescue than that near the top of a ridge way out on the end of an oak limb solo save for a bit of ground support. Ladder, ropes, pruning saw. "Pilot" and glider unscathed, minimal damage to the tree. (And fuck the idiot who signed that idiot off on his Two.)
Those who also responded to the emergency included two rangers from Santa Clara County Parks, a county sheriff's deputy, Rural Metro Ambulance and the San Jose Fire Department.
And Moe, Larry, and Curly.
Mike Jefferson - 2014/01/08 04:52:41 UTC

The rescue footage is spectacular! The helicopter guys were awesome. In fact, the guy who was dangling on the end of the string tried to sell me his Moyes hang glider after the rescue. I have to say the pictures were after the rescue. The glider was flat on top of the tree with no damage before the helicopter blew it around and the dangling dude cut the trailing edge.
-
USHPA 76175
http://www.sanfranciscohanggliding.com
Paraglider Collapse - 2014/01/08 06:32:07 UTC

REALLY STUPID to use a helicopter - the downwash could easily have dislodged the glider from the tree and sent the pilot crashing to the ground.
But hell, it's CHP - he's lucky they didn't shoot him out of the tree.
Ditto.
Erik Boehm - 2014/01/08 19:24:26 UTC

The stuff that happens at Ed Levin... just doesn't surprise me any more.

I still have trouble wrapping my head around how people miss the LZ at Ed Levin.

I never figured those trees as a hazard for anything more than a source of some rotor when the wind is blowing from a direction such that students shouldn't be flying anyway.

You shouldn't be launching in that direction, it's not in the path of any landing approach... avoiding a collision with those trees should be as easy as avoiding a collision with a hillside.

I know there is often some lift in that bowl (to the left of the road in the picture)... and I sometimes try to thermal low over that area, but I can't say I've ever worried about hitting those trees... and students shouldn't be trying that shit anyway - I am assuming it was a student, given the glider and the location just in front of the three hundred foot training hill - I suspect this person was working towards their H2, or had only recently obtained it.

I would very much like to get some more details.
And I'd like the video of Scott Howard whipstalling coming off tow that he promised he'd post after people got him home. Good freakin' luck.
Mike Jefferson - 2014/01/08 21:23:31 UTC

Eric your dead on. I have the video in my iPhone and put it in my Epics. I would like to get the pilots blessing to post it then I need someone to tell me how to convert it from my ipics on my mac. Anyone familiar with Macs out there?
Fuck the "pilot", his blessing, and this bullshit that we're not allowed to see photos, videos, reports and not allowed to discuss or speculate about anything because we might upset some goddam family member.
Brian Horgan - 2014/01/09 02:31:26 UTC

i hope the guy dont quit.
Me too. As long as he maintains his flying career he will have an opinion worth listening to.
Erik Boehm - 2014/01/10 07:25:34 UTC

Well, I've received some info via a private channel that says perhaps this guy is not cut out to fly.
I don't want to name names, but supposedly, this was not a student of MSC, in case that is what people were wondering.
Still no details on what actually happened immediately before hitting the trees.
Name names. The fact that the names involved in this one haven't spoken up is proof that they very richly deserve to be named.
Mike Jefferson - 2014/01/10 17:56:28 UTC

I was there. I watched it from the 150, I was first on the scene. The conditions were WSW and very light. The guy flew into a tree. Enough said about what caused the accident. No instructor can be blamed for that. The instructor who launched him is not responsible for a guy who land in a tree next to a huge LZ.
BULLSHIT.
Just like the guy who blew his launch the other day from the 1750 on the Sport 2, the observer that launched him was not responsible for the broken leading edge and control frame. Right?
Likely not. But the guy whose name is on his card may very well have something to answer for.
Brian Horgan - 2014/01/10 18:04:48 UTC

ill say it again.This puppy mill approach on teaching is what is causing this crap at a high rate.There are people who are not qualified to get a rating but have enough money to get it anyway.Money is more important than quality now.Its like we let anybody in,qualified or not.I dont know of any flight school that has a zero washout rate except hanggliding schools.

ok lets here the peanut gallery with all of its armchair pilots tell me how im wrong.Roast my nuts because i give a fuk.
Fuck you. What piloting skills does one need to agree or disagree with you?
Brian Horgan - 2014/01/10 18:09:03 UTC

wrong! the instructor IS AT FAULT.You guys know whos going to make it and whos not.LEARN to tell them they dont have it.Dont let money blind you if you instruct!.Thats why your a instructor,learn to instruct the people who dont have it,tell them im sorry i dont think your going to make it.Everybody is to fuking nice.
Mike Jefferson - 2014/01/10 18:12:33 UTC

And the accidents in Tres Pinos can all be prevented with better instruction. Like the guy who crashed because his release would't work.
His release would've worked just fine - in a non emergency situation anyway - if it had been configured properly.
We could show those instructors in Tres Pinos what a secondary release is.
Fuck secondary releases. There's no more excuse for going up with release that isn't 100.000 percent solid than there is for going up with an obviously frayed sidewire. And in real emergencies one seldom survives the easy reach to the primary anyway.
The we could teach the students and instructors how to use the hook knife that he had on his chest.
Yeah. Here's the best instructional video ever made on the subject:

1:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJGUJO5BjnA


Always make sure the glider's under control, air is smooth, and line tension is light and you have a couple thousand feet to work with.
Then we could teach the tow operators how to cut a tow line. Yea, with some training, Tres Pinos could be a safe place to learn hang gliding. I don't know a way to insure a new pilot won't fly into something like a tree, car or glider on the ground. I think that could still happen.
Then you shouldn't be instructing. If general aviation instructors can be sure their students won't fly into trees, cars, other aircraft on the ground or in the air then so can hang gliding instructors.
Mike Jefferson - 2014/01/10 18:20:22 UTC

I partly agree with you Noman. Maybe I was playing the mother hen a little there, protecting my fellow instructor.
Maybe you shouldn't have been.
Please don't hit me at the meeting tonight. Some people were not meant to fly and you can see it in all the lessons that lead up to this kind situation.
Then you don't put the student into an environment in which that kind of situation is a possibility.
Situational awareness, quick reflexes and good judgement should always be considered.

I will bring the rescue footage to the meeting tonight. The pilot doesn't want me to post it because he says he doesn't want it to affect the other pilots in any way.
Fuck him. No pilot ever became a worse pilot for reading a description of or watching a video of a pooch screw.
Its pretty cool how the helicopter pulls him free.
Maybe you could show us the clip of the dangle guy slicing up the sail.
Brian Horgan - 2014/01/10 18:49:48 UTC

Mike your one of the very few that i would let teach my kid how to fly.
I'd certainly be cool with letting Mike teach your kid how to fly. Can't imagine it would result in any damage to the gene pool.
My concern is that people are getting ratings to easily and money is the concern not ability.When ushpa took away the so program it crippled us putting out quality pilots.
But as long as these people who've bought ratings are flying - into trees, cars, parked gliders, whatever - they're all head and shoulders above any armchair pilot you wanna name.
Unwittingly they caused all of this in my opinion.They made our veterans null and void and left a void for people with money, as a concern, to take the rains.
Dave Hopkins - 2014/01/10 21:19:16 UTC

Obviously this student had a problem with target fixation or turning or speed control. I can not believe it did not show itself before he got to that level.

If someone crashes and you are instructing them you are at fault in some way. We have to operate that way. I don't think you should be sued or pay damages to them unless it is extreme but you are still at fault.
Define extreme. When one of Tom Galvin's victims kills himself launching minus a hook-in check because he's been taught that hook-in checks are dangerous because they give a false sense of security does he get to walk because this is how EVERYONE operates?
If we made a million $ teaching people to fly ,maybe then.
It can EASILY cost MANY millions when somebody is taught something poorly, not at all, wrong. So do it right or don't.
Your instruction was obviously poor . You did not give your student the skills to handle the situation. You allowed them to fly in conditions over their heads. Or you as an instructor are a bad judge of People developing flying skills You don't know the basics of teaching a human to fly or the basics of flying your self.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg
Image
We are going to make mistakes. We will not be perfect all he time but as in our flying we need to make them small mistakes and fix it before real accidents happen. THAT IS PART OF THE ART OF TEACHING. Guide the student to teach themselves . Understand why its wrong and get the results of doing it right. Some times you wonder if it's ever going to sink in but they stay low until they earn the right to go up.
WE must keep the bar high!
We can play this game quite perfectly enough to prevent crap like that.
rkswb - 2014/01/16 20:41:03 UTC
SF Bay Area

I find it interesting that despite that HG pilots seem to be extremely clear on the fact that flying is not a risk free sport, it's not just as obvious that an instructor can't eliminate all risk for the people who fly under his or her instruction. Yes, it behooves an instructor to use his or her best judgement to launch a student only when the student is ready for the task-at-hand, although conversely to eliminate all risk would mean to instruct students not to get involved in free flight at all.
Bullshit. Name a crash that occurred just because hang gliding is an inherently risky sport. Crashes ALWAYS happen because of one or more pooch screws by one or more individuals. Nobody with a halfway functional brain and a halfway acceptable level of competence stands or prones out at launch thinking that the next part of the day is gonna be a dice roll.
The point is that I'm trying to recognize that there is, for the benefit of both the individuals involved and the sport at large, some ambiguous and undefined "acceptable risk" when an instructor launches a student.
A one in a hundred thousand chance of a student ending up in the top of a eucalyptus tree is not an acceptable risk.
I don't know if we'll ever have the information to point to a root cause for this crash, but look at the bottom line: the pilot landed in the tree but didn't get hurt.
The bottom line is that the "pilot" missed untold wide open acreage of landing options and a lot of people have been killed as consequences of mistakes dwarfed by this one.
There's no reason to open up a criminal investigation.
There virtually never is. The Jeremiah Thompson / Arlan Birkett fatal was officially written off as "shit happens" despite several glaringly obvious and undeniable contributory violations of federal aviation regulations and USHGA SOPs. And when you get decades of operation free of criminal investigations and convictions the problems which kill people don't get fixed - they get incorporated as standard operating procedure.
Things can go wrong quickly in the air.
This shit very obviously didn't happen because something went wrong quickly in the air. And when a Zack Marzec DOES get killed because things went very quickly and very predictably in the air tell me what we do in the way of response.
I understand people will speculate on what happened...
Of course they will. What other options have they got when the student involved and the instructors who put him in that situation slam shut tighter than clams?
...and that the HG community wants to learn from every crash that occurs... but will people *please* hold off on the blame game?
- Who's the hang gliding "community"?

- I one hundred percent guarantee you that the higher up you go in the power structure of the hang gliding "community" the greater the desire is that NOTHING be learned from ANY crash that occurs.
The pilot will look at what he did wrong, and try to learn from what happened. The instructor will consider what he could have done, and try to learn from what happened. We on the internet can hopefully learn from their experiences by fostering an environment where the pilot and instructor feel open to sharing.
Fuck that. People have been flying hang gliders on a pretty significant scale for over four decades and the reporting has been going steadily downhill for at least the past three.

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1081
Platform towing /risk mitigation / accident
Sam Kellner - 2012/07/03 02:25:58 UTC

No, you don't get an accident report.
Get some criminal investigations going and get some fuckin' heads on fuckin' pikes if you wanna reverse the learning process to something positive.
It only works to the detriment of everyone to put them on the defensive by saying "I heard the pilot isn't cut out to fly"...
Tough shit. He SHOULD be on the defensive after parking a glider in a tree. And a pretty reasonable defense would be that his instruction sucked. I overshot a field on my third mountain flight 'cause it was a crappy dangerous field and my "instructor", Mark Airey, was/is a real asshole.
...or ardently blaming the unidentified instructor and painting him as a greedy asshole who cares more about money than his students' safety.
The fact that his instructor is still publicly unidentified and hasn't uttered a word about this situation lends a lot of credibility to that position.
Is that the kind of community that we want to be?
We don't wanna be a community. We wanna have checks and balances and accountability or all we're ever gonna have is conflict of interest and corruption. And good luck doing anything to make a positive change.
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1166
Too many death
Pa32xc - 2006/02/02 03:44:59 UTC

Why not standardize? If safety is important why haven't aerotow operations been standardized? One release, tow rope material, rope length, procedures, etc. I am new to aerotowing but it only makes sense to me that if as many variables as possible were reduced the accident rate would decrease.

I would be more comfortable using the same equipment and procedures no matter where I am flying. And I feel that with familiarity comes more predictability and hopefully fewer accidents where equipment and procedure are a contributing factor.

My $0.02.
Why not standardize?
Like in sailplaning?
If safety is important...
It's not.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25321
Stop the Stupids at the USHPA BOD meeting
Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/29 02:26:23 UTC

We can establish rules which we think will improve pilot safety, but our attorney is right. USHPA is not in the business of keeping pilots "safe" and it can't be. Stepping into that morass is a recipe for extinction of our association. I wish it were not so, but it is. We don't sell equipment, we don't offer instruction, and we don't assure pilots that they'll be safe.
The Industry long ago determined that ass covering takes precedent over every other consideration. Image
...why haven't aerotow operations been standardized?
http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules
Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC
Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
Focal point of a safe towing system. What more do you want?
One release...
Like we've got basically one VG system for built into all gliders that use them? A block and tackle system that pulls the cross spars junction back and routes down the downtube to a cleat on the basetube?
...tow rope material...
'Cause...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1143
Death at Tocumwal
Gregg Ludwig - 2006/01/22 18:15:15 UTC

I just can not understand why operators continue to use poly towlines (for aerotow ops) when spectra towlines are clearly superior. Poly is less expensive...but when considering the cost of a tow plane and HG and the advantages of spectra, a few dollars of savings is foolish.
...total idiots...
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

Those approaches to weak link design are very practical and are widely used for sailplanes. It is important to realize that most sailplane operations use polypro for the tow rope rather than Spectra. Unlike Spectra, polypro has some stretch to it under load--and can stretch up to 20% before breaking. It acts like a shock absorber to soften impact loads, which helps to prevent damage to the structure and hardware of the tow plane and sailplane and helps to avoid unnecessary weak link breaks.
...are allowed to make totally idiotic equipment choices to conform to their totally idiotic understandings of the physics of aeronautics.
...rope length...
250 feet.
...procedures...
http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=929
Training Manual Comments / Contribution
Bill Cummings - 2012/01/10 14:04:59 UTC

Tad's procedures for aerotowing should become part of any training manual.
Tad must have put hour upon hour of gathering together his written procedure.
...etc.
We're NEVER gonna make it to et cetera.
I am new to aerotowing but it only makes sense to me that if as many variables as possible were reduced the accident rate would decrease.
Yeah, you ARE new to aerotowing.
I would be more comfortable using the same equipment and procedures no matter where I am flying.
I think you're pretty good on this one:
- inaccessible releases with no load capacity
- long, thin, cheap, wrap prone bridles
- bent pin backup releases with short fat barrels you can't get a grip on
- Rooney links
All the good equipment is mercilessly driven out of the marketplace 'cause the junk merchants don't want anybody to be able to compare the crap they sell to anything decent.
And I feel that with familiarity comes more predictability and hopefully fewer accidents where equipment and procedure are a contributing factor.
Yeah, we can predict things alright - but it won't be fewer "accidents" attributable to shit equipment and procedures.
Pete Anderson - 2006/02/02 03:49:06 UTC

I try to find parallels between my skydiving and hanggliding addictions, whether it's promoting the sport or safety.
Pick one.
Every year the skydiving community has set one day aside as "Safety Day". The United States Parachute Association advertises this in their mag and everyone is aware of the day it's held.

People gather at each drop zone for this national event to discuss various situations that can be harmful, if not fatal, such as water and powerline landings. Every year when my membership runs out, the application on my renewal asks me if I participated in this annual event, and it also asks if I performed my emergency procedures conducted in a hanging harness at least once for the year. Safety Day has garnered the attention of all the major drop zones as well as the little ones.

In the following month, the mag publishes pictures, thoughts, and discussions that some of the drop zones had, highlighting different, thought provoking scenarios. Without a doubt, it generates a heightened awareness towards safety. This is all volunteer stuff. No cost and, in the overall scheme of things, priceless.
You got any evidence for that? Have you got people saying, "Boy, if it weren't for that Safety Day program I'd have..."?
The United States Hang Gliding/Paragliding Association can learn a lot about this organization that almost went bankrupt several years ago.
The best thing USHGA can do for hang gliding is get sued out of existence.
And the success of this organization is evident when you see movies like Drop Zone, Point Break, etc. Prior to the 90's, this sport was pretty obscure.

A huge step forward for our struggling Association, I believe, would be to establish a nationwide safety day.
We could practice hang checks, Aussie Methodism, reciting the Five Cs, helmet buckling, weak link failure response, no stepper spot landings...
This day would be one devoted to spending an entire day going through several emergency situations involving hanging in a simulator with a control frame with some poor shmuck getting twisted up and pushed around to simulate a tumble while practicing the "look," "reach," "pull," "throw" methods of chute deployments, followed by reeling in the bridle.
And then we could look at the situations in which parachutes are actually used and their success rates when the pilot does everything right.

And then we could focus on not doing the kind of stupid shit which puts people in situations in which their lives are dependent on successful parachute deployments.
Simulations of not being hooked in and attempting to climb into a control frame with full gear, to include a full camel back, radio, glider bag stashed, wearing gloves, jacket, full face helmet, would provide invaluable insight on the required strength needed to pull yourself up and inside the control frame. It's almost impossible!
Unless, of course...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30634
Exercises for HG fitness - which are best?
Todd Sheehan - 2014/01/14 14:46:58 UTC

I'm also a strong believer in adding pullups. If you can't do a pull-up (or 5) then you shouldn't be flying! If you forget to clip in, your arms are the only thing that's going to save you.
...you're capable of doing five pull-ups. Then it's a no brainer.

Any thoughts on using that time instead run hook-in check and launch practice on soccer field? I'm not really seeing how convincing people that climbing up into the control frame is pretty much impossible would do any good. We haven't had enough unhooked launch fatalities to have people convinced already? If they're too fucking stupid to be terrified of the unhooked launch itself what makes you think that:
- this exercise will drive a useful point home; and
- assholes of this caliber are worth getting through to?
Discussions on water and powerline landings would be made.
Why? What more needs to be said than "DON'T!"?
Sharing ideas regarding towing, lockouts...
We don't need IDEAS regarding towing and lockouts. We've got PHYSICS, FACTS, and DATA. And we're SUPPOSED TO HAVE instructional programs that have already addressed that shit.
...equipment failure...
If we have equipment that FAILS in circulation we're wasting the time we should be using to get it out of circulation talking about how to respond to the situations it causes.
...can all be addressed. And finally, the course would end in a parachute packing seminar.
Fuck parachute packing seminars. They're about as useful to hang gliding as CPR certification clinics.
There's a lot a similarities between two sports that are considered high risk.
The high risk aspects of hang gliding are virtually all institutionalized and deliberately engineered into the systems.
Maybe we can learn something here.
Bullshit. There was NOTHING to learn here (2006/01/19 - James Simpson) and never was. And the fact that it happened is proof that nothing WILL BE learned here or anywhere else.
PS: Don't ask me how to solve world hunger.
- Fewer people.
- How 'bout I ask you to understand what weak links and releases are and what's acceptable to go up with?
Davis Straub - 2006/02/02 04:01:10 UTC

I attempted to get the meet organizer to standardize on the Quest Air barrel release.
Yeah, whenever you've got some fucking sleazebag slapping together bent pin shit equipment it's a no brainer that he's gonna bust his ass to get it standardized.
She actually bought 50 of them, but didn't require this pilot or others to use them. I argued that she should.
Real bummer that...

http://ozreport.com/2013USNationalsrules.php
2013 US Nationals at Big Spring, Texas
2.0 EQUIPMENT

Appropriate aerotow bridles

Competitors must use appropriate aerotow bridles as determined by the Meet Director and Safety Director and their designated officials. Bridles must include secondary releases (as determined by the Safety Director). Bridles must be able to be connected to the tow line within two seconds. The only appropriate bridles can be found here: http://OzReport.com/9.039#0 and http://ozreport.com/9.041#2.

Pilots who have not already had their bridles inspected during the practice days must bring their bridles to the mandatory pilot safety briefing and have them reviewed. Pilots with inappropriate bridles may purchase appropriate bridles from the meet organizer.
...you didn't have unchecked power over THAT one, wasn't it?
I also have argued here for 150' spectra tow lines. Some like the idea, others don't.
I thought...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap
Davis Straub - 2011/07/30 19:51:54 UTC

I'm very happy with the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now.
...you were very happy with the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now. And Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) uses...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC

The tow line was approximately 250 feet long which is standard...
...250 feet.
Best practices is a very good idea.
Best practices to benefit WHOM and in WHAT WAYS?
Here is an example of a best practices document:

http://ozreport.com/9.216#0
http://ozreport.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=ozreport:tandem_aerotowing
It is repeated in the Members only section of the USHGA web site:
http://www.ushga.org/
Got any examples of stuff that isn't fucking obvious and doesn't totally suck?
Pa32xc - 2006/02/02 04:57:27 UTC

What are the reasons for best practice not to be adopted?
Davis Straub - 2006/02/02 05:42:55 UTC

No agreement on what the best practices actually are.
Yeah, Davis...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Davis Straub - 2013/02/13 15:45:22 UTC

IMHO aerotowing is relatively safe compared with foot launching. I would certainly like to make it safer. What we would all like to know is what could we do to make it safer.

We have no agreement that a stronger weaklink would make it safer (again, I fly with a slightly stronger weaklink).
Getting AGREEMENT on some of these issues can be a real bitch.

From that best practices document you just cited:

http://ozreport.com/9.216#0
Killing Ourselves
Davis Straub - 2005/10/23

With a weaklink break, like the one at Hang Glide Chicago that occurred, in this case, at the tug end, the tandem glider dives and is not able to recover in time.
it's pretty fucking obvious that a weak link break on a TANDEM glider being towed at a high angle of attack at HANG GLIDE CHICAGO can result in an unrecoverable fatal stall.

But when the weak link breaks on a SOLO glider being towed at a high angle of attack at QUEST AIR and an unrecoverable fatal stall WE HAVE NO AGREEMENT THAT A STRONGER WEAK LINK WOULD MAKE IT SAFER.

Reminds me a lot of the lethal threat to the tug presented by a double loop of 130 pound Greenspot on a solo glider bridle which becomes a total nonissue when used by a tandem.

Maybe we'd be able to reach AGREEMENTS on some of these obvious fucking issues if we eliminated as many total morons and lying pieces of shit as possible from the pool of policy makers.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1166
Too many death
Marc Fink - 2006/02/02 11:39:25 UTC

Standardization makes perfect sense--as long as every tug, engine, horsepower, line, release, conditions, towed glider and pilot skills can be held constant in all towing situations.
So Marc...

- How are we currently using different tugs, engines, horsepower ratings, towlines, releases, conditions, gliders, pilot skills to dial in optimal configurations?

- How are these individually optimized systems working out for people?

- What are the analogous strategies we see in sailplaning?

- But for the ONE COMPONENT that's SUPPOSED to be varied in proportion to glider capacity:

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules
Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC
Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
Go fuck yourself.
Christian Williams - 2006/02/02 17:49:58 UTC

Are there more fatalities, or more fatalities that we know about, analyse and debate? My sense is that high speed ground-skimming is out of fashion now, and that we know more about heavy-tandem angle of attack issues and towline choices now than before...
Bull fucking shit.
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson.
Robert V. Wills - 1979/03

1978/06/06 - John Walbert / Martha Galvis - Lahaina - Seagull III

Boat tow. New driver. Too fast. Splice in towline snapped at high angle of attack. Tandem flight. Both died.
Donnell Hewett - 1980/12

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation," and that "More people have been injured because of a weak link than saved by one." Well, I for one have been saved by a weak link and would not even consider towing without one. I want to know without a doubt (1) when I am pushing too hard, and (2) what will break when I push too hard, and (3) that no other damage need result because I push too hard.

Furthermore, I will not use a mechanical weak link no matter how elaborate or expensive because there is always the possibility that it may fail to operate properly. In skyting we use a simple and inexpensive strand of nylon fishing line which breaks at the desired tension limit. There is no possible way for it to jam and fail to release when the maximum tension is exceeded. Sure, it may get weaker through aging or wear and break too soon, but it cannot get stronger and fail to break. If it does break too soon, so what? We simply replace it with a fresh one.
...and maybe truck towing too after John W's crash.
Bullshit.

http://ozreport.com/9.191
John Woiwode's Lockout
John Woiwode - 2005/09/18

At about thirty feet, I drifted lightly to the right with a soft south push. It was a gentle deviation, so I applied a correction that stopped the right drift and eventually brought me back in line with the trailer. I was still climbing ok as the line paid out. It was at this time, lined up square with the road and climbing slowly, that I felt a distinct pull on the glider from the tow line, and a rapid acceleration. My fleeting thought at that moment was that I was ok for a bit because the glider was straight and in line with the tow vehicle. I noted that I was catching up to the vehicle/trailer.
He deliberately flew himself straight behind the tow vehicle in a crosswind. He flew himself into that lockout.
These accidents take us by surprise and challenge and revise our assumptions.
Not any of us who have fuckin' clues what we're doing and talking about.
It's painful.
That's the price of stupidity in aviation.
The question is, are we learning anything? I think so. That's good.
So tell me how come this guy:

37-23223
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9655904048_89cce6423a_o.png
Image

ain't around no more, nobody seems to understand just what went wrong, and there've been no advisories about reducing the chances of a rerun?
Brett - 2006/02/02 23:07:46 UTC

Davis quoted me the statistics regarding the number of tows per day at Wallaby and the number of accidents a while back and I would certainly agree things have improved a great deal...
Really?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17092
Crash at Questair
Alfie Norks - 2010/06/03 12:24:40 UTC
Brazil

Speedy recovery to the pilot in question.
It could have been worse. It could have happened at...the other place (but nothing happens there. Image) Image Good luck if it does. No 911 calls allowed. My friend was lucky, the nurse on hand convinced the owner not to move him, this after he snatched and threw her phone away. Image She was trying to dial 911. My friend suffered lower back injury.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20756
How is Zach Etheridge doing?
Bob Flynn - 2011/02/04 11:26:34 UTC

Lookout keeps this kind of stuff under their hat. You never hear of accidents there. But every time I go there, I hear about quite a few. Blown launches, tree landings, etc.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545
Cart stuck incidents
Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC

I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.
Just how much confidence do you have in the crash statistics you're getting out of these places?
...thanks to the work of many innovators over the years.
Name some.
Things like launch dollies, V bridles, and weak links have improved the safety of towing such that it's likely acceptable in moderate conditions, but I think rather than looking at external systems a focus on the control system is what is needed for further improvement.
- Launch dollies and platforms have been around since near the beginning of aviation.

- Bridles - what you refer to as "V bridles" - have been around as long as kites have for a very obvious reason.

- But Davis says...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Davis Straub - 2013/02/13 15:45:22 UTC

IMHO aerotowing is relatively safe compared with foot launching. I would certainly like to make it safer. What we would all like to know is what could we do to make it safer.

Protow only
...that two point bridles make towing more dangerous and nobody from the upper circles is saying that one point bridles can't be flown just as safely as two pointers - provided, of course, that one has learned how to do it in a short clinic.
I recall one disastrous year where we lost both the president and vice president of USHGA in a tandem towing accident...
- No you don't.

- The year was 1996. The date was 07/25.

- The crashees were Bill Bennett and Mike Del Signore. Bill was one of two Region 9 Directors, Mike was the major force behind establishing towing in Ohio but was never a USHGA official.

- What happened was not an accident. It was primarily a consequence of towing behind...
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
...a pin man who had no fuckin' clue what he was doing.
...and still think statistically towing has a higher accident rate than foot launching...
Bullshit.
...so there's room for improvement.
The room for improvement increases with each passing year as scum like Trisa, Matt, Davis, Rooney work their asses off to move things backwards.
Sailplanes for example tow directly from the glider - no need for elaborate systems to compensate.
We're part of the hang glider and the tow force is routed either all through us or half through us and half directly to or near the hang point.
Clearly with sufficient control nothing else is necessary. I recall early in my training I was so bad I let the glider get so far off station I could barely see the tug plane in the corner of the canopy and was in total panic. Finally the instructor took over. He simply pointed at the tug with the rudder and cross controlled with the stick. The glider came back behind the tug in the blink of an eye from a position my HG experience told me was totally unrecoverable. I was amazed at how effective the control was.
Nice not to be flying an inherently roll unstable system, isn't it?
I believe there are systems available now that would could give even flexwings HGs a greater level of control under tow.
There are:
- releases which allow you to blow tow with both hands on the basetube
- one and a half G weak links which don't blow at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation
Even the Cage paraglider I have flown has a control system that makes lockouts almost impossible. Perhaps more positive control would not see a reduction in towing accidents but it must at least be worth investigation.
How 'bout doing the obvious, easy, cheap fixes first before you start redesigning a weight shift control hang glider into a conventional sailplane?
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4592
Weaklinks
Tracy Tillman - 2005/02/08 19:16:10 UTC

The sailplane guys have been doing this for a long time, and there are many hang glider pilots and quite a few tug pilots who don't understand what the sailplane guys have learned over the years. It certainly would help if hang glider towing methods and training were standardized to the degree that they are in the sailplane world.
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2011/05
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
12. Hang Gliding Aerotow
-A. Aerotow

05. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.
Hey Trisa...

When the sailplane guys train and qualify pilots the purpose of the weak link pop simulation is to test/hone the student's ability to immediately set up the best possible landing approach - NOT to see if he's capable of shoving the nose down in response to a loss of airspeed / increase in angle. Most jerks off the street are capable of handling that one within their first ten or fifteen seconds of airtime.

And I'm wondering... Just how many of your tandem students failed to pull the bar in or shoved it the wrong way at that stage of training?

If it's ZERO - and it is - what's the point of including this bullshit in the SOPs? It OBVIOUSLY has NOTHING to do with setting up an emergency landing approach because you're specifying AT ALTITUDE and allowing all the way up to just shy of normal release altitude.
05. Demonstrates successful, confident, controlled launches and flight under tow to release at altitude with a tandem pilot, with a smooth release and turn to the right when transitioning to free flight. Must demonstrate proper directional and pitch control resulting in proper tracking of the aerotow vehicle in both straight and turning flight and appropriate maintenance of proper tow line tension and airspeed. Must perform and demonstrate proper technique for at least one normal and one crosswind takeoff (actual or simulated) with a tandem pilot. Must demonstrate the ability to control the glider position within the "cone of safety" behind the aerotow vehicle by performing "cross" and "diamond" maneuvers during tow at altitude with a tandem rated pilot who is experienced and proficient at performing those maneuvers. (Note: This checks for positive control and lockout prevention skills, somewhat like the "boxing the wake" maneuver used for sailplane aerotow check flights, but "boxing the wake" must not be performed by hang gliders on tow due to lack of 3-axis control.) The candidate must demonstrate the ability to recover from roll oscillations induced by the tandem pilot. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air. A minimum of 2 tandem flight demonstrations must be made to the rating official.

07. When tandem aerotow instruction is not available, solo-only aerotow instruction may be offered as an alternative. To receive an aerotow rating at the completion of solo-only aerotow instruction, the candidate must perform a minimum of 5 solo aerotow flights under the direct supervision of the rating official during which he/she must demonstrate successful, confident, controlled launches and flight under tow to release at altitude, with a smooth release and turn to the right when transitioning to free flight. He/she must demonstrate proper directional and pitch control resulting in proper tracking of the aerotow vehicle in both straight and turning flight and appropriate maintenance of proper tow line tension and airspeed. Additional instruction or mentorship should be provided to help the newly rated aerotow pilot gradually transition to towing in mid-day thermal/turbulent conditions.
Do the sailplane guys get to throw out a bunch of qualifications related to dual training just 'cause it's not available in their necks of the woods and get signed off on an identical rating?

I notice that you deleted this section:
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2012/06/20
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
12. Hang Gliding Aerotow
-C. Aerotow Equipment Guidelines

01. The tow vehicle must have a rated thrust of at least 250 lbs.

02. The tow line connection to the towing vehicle must be arranged so as to not hinder the control system of the towing vehicle.

03. A pilot operational release must connect the tow line to the towing vehicle. This release must be operational with zero tow line force up to twice the rated breaking strength of the weak link.

04. Weak links must be used in accordance with 14 CFR 91.309(a)(3). USHPA recommends that a nominal 1G (combined operating weight of the glider and pilot) weak link be used, when placed at one end of a hang glider pilot's V-bridle; or about 1.5-2G if placed at the apex of the tow bridle or directly in-line with the tow rope. The actual strength of the weak link used by the hang glider pilot must be appropriate for the operation and have a breaking strength between 80% and 200% MCOW (max. cert. operating weight) of the glider, in terms of direct towline tension. The weak link used at the tow plane end of the towline must be stronger, but not more than 25% stronger, than the strength of the weak link used at the glider end of the towline.

05. A release must be placed at the hang glider end of the tow line within easy reach of the pilot. This release shall be operational with zero tow line force up to twice the rated breaking strength of the weak link.

06. The purpose of the weak link is to protect the tow equipment, and may not prevent lockouts or other abnormal flight conditions.
from the SOPs five days after Zack Marzec was spit out of the center of the Cone of Safety and killed at Quest a bit shy of a year ago. Don't the sailplane guys have clear cut regulations for tugs, gliders, connections, releases, towlines, weak links? Or do they just have some asshole tug driver or meet head making up whatever rules he feels like and forcing people to use whatever crap he sells and feels like calling equipment?

Seems to me like the more control you shits manage to exert over this branch of the sport the less and less it resembles what the sailplane guys have been doing since the beginning of time.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1166
Too many death
Jim Rooney - 2014/01/25 21:55:10 UTC

Wow, here's an oldie.

I'll take a stab at it...
You've already taken three stabs at it. But eight years ago your keen intellect wasn't as finely honed as it is now, so feel free to fire away.
1.Dose the HG pilot and tug pilot...
Dose the tug pilot with enough arsenic to kill a Clydesdale twice over. (Great start there, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney.)
...have radio communications or at least from the HG pilot to the tug?
No.
Radios add a huge level of complexity.
HUGE. And complexity is always such a bad thing. I'm always amazed at how well most surface tow operations are able to handle it.
My first question would be why?
Maybe so the passenger behind you can make a request that you hold off a bit on fixing whatever's going on back there...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Give 'em the rope? When?
William Olive - 2005/02/11 08:59:57 UTC

I give 'em the rope if they drop a tip (seriously drop a tip), or take off stalled. You will NEVER be thanked for it, for often they will bend some tube.
...by giving him the rope.
The HG pilot's...
The hang glider PILOT?!?! There's no PILOT back there. YOU are the...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

I've got a bit of time, but I'm not going to write a dissertation... so either choose to try to understand what I'm saying, or (as is most often the case) don't.
I don't care.

Here's a little bit of bitter reality that ya'll get to understand straight off. I won't be sugar coating it, sorry.
You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.
I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.
And yes. It is my call. PERIOD.
On tow, I am the PIC.

Now, that cuts hard against every fiber of every HG pilot on the planet and I get that.
Absolutely no HG pilot likes hearing it. Not me, not no one. BUT... sorry, that's the way it is.
Accept it and move on.
Not only can you not change it, it's the law... in the very literal sense.
...Pilot In Command. Nobody can change it - it's the law... in the very literal sense. Just ask Dr. Trisa Tilletti - it's in his training syllabus.
...got enough to think about without a radio.
Definitely...

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus


Primarily how likely his Rooney Link is to be strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks from turbulence.
Adding a radio just increases his workload.
Yeah...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
Gets real busy back there sometimes.
If it were for safety reasons, this is the opposite of what you want.
Hell, we all have Rooney Links. The deck's really stacked in our favor. What's to worry about?
I tow with an airband radio so I can talk to the other planes out there (I tow a lot at airports).
Yeah.
The Press - 2006/03/15

The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) is urgently pushing for new hang-gliding industry standards after learning a hang-gliding pilot who suffered serious injuries in a crash three weeks ago had not clipped himself on to the glider.

Extreme Air tandem gliding pilot James (Jim) Rooney safely clipped his passenger into the glider before departing from the Coronet Peak launch site, near Queenstown, CAA sports and recreation manager Rex Kenny said yesterday.

However, he took off without attaching himself.

In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.

Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.
The foot launch tandem stuff didn't work out all that great.
In 9 years, I've had a total of one HG pilot talk to me while on tow. He's a tandem pilot and it's usually something along the lines of "hey, can we go a bit more north?".
- Since you're the Pilot In Command how come he's not asking you for permission to adjust his position within the Cone of Safety to compensate for turns, thermals, turbulence?

- Any chance Robin Strid would have been better off if he'd been able to talk to Bobby when he was welded to the towline because the focal point of his safe towing system was snagged on the gate of the release Bobby "designed"? Any chance he'd have been WORSE off?
If a HG pilot wants to go through the hassle and expense of getting on the airband frequency (including getting licensed to do so), I'll be happy to chat with ya. We won't have much to talk about, but hey, it's your dime.
That's OK. I can say everything I have to say to you here just fine.
2. Has the release mechanism being standardized ?
Yes and No.
Yes with regard what The Industry sells and allows in the air. No with regard to any expectation of safe functioning...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4049
Towing errata
Bill Bryden - 2004/04/01 16:20:18 UTC

Some aerotow releases, including a few models from prominent schools, have had problems releasing under high tensions. You must VERIFY through tests that a release will work for the tensions that could possibly be encountered. You better figure at least three hundred pounds to be modestly confident.

Maybe eight to ten years ago I got several comments from people saying a popular aerotow release (with a bicycle type brake lever) would fail to release at higher tensions. I called and talked to the producer sharing the people's experiences and concerns. I inquired to what tension their releases were tested but he refused to say, just aggressively stated they never had any problems with their releases, they were fine, goodbye, click. Another person tested one and found it started getting really hard to actuate in the range of only eighty to a hundred pounds as I vaguely recall. I noticed they did modify their design but I don't know if they ever really did any engineering tests on it. You should test the release yourself or have someone you trust do it. There is only one aerotow release manufacturer whose product I'd have reasonable confidence in without verifying it myself, the Wallaby release is not it.
...and pretense of compliance with any...
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2008/03
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
10. Hang Gliding Aerotow Ratings
-B. Aero Vehicle Requirements

06. A release must be placed at the hang glider end of the tow line within easy reach of the pilot. This release shall be operational with zero tow line force up to twice the rated breaking strength of the weak link.
...legal requirements.
There are a few very popular ones like the barrel...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..
Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.

No stress because I was high.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8331326948/
Image
...wichard...
http://ozreport.com/9.037
Recommendations based on Robin's accident
Rohan Holtkamp - 2005/02/14

Recommendation One:

Do not use a 'wishsard' or 'spinnaker' release directly connected to a string or rope. This type of metal release has a metal knob on the opening arm that a rope will catch on, even when the release is activated and open. You must have a metal ring on this type of release. The ring must be large enough to slide past the knob under all angles and situations.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318781297/
Image
Image
...and Lookout's bentpin top release.
Lockout Mountain Flight Park - 2009/07/12

We are confident that with an ultimate load of 130 pounds at the release point, the new GT aerotow release works better than all cable releases that we have experience with. We feel that this design has exceeded our expectations in all regards. We hope the GT barrel release exceeds your expectations as well!

GT Manufacturing Inc. (GT) and Lookout Mountain Flight Park Inc. (LMFP) make no claim of serviceability of this tow equipment. There is no product liability insurance covering this gear and we do not warrant this gear as suitable for towing anything. We make no claim of serviceability in any way and recommend that you do not use this aerotow gear if you are not absolutely sure how to use it and or if you are unwilling to assume the risk.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction
deltaman - 2011/07/14 08:33:59 UTC

LMFP RELEASE
U$139.95
http://estore.hanglide.com/Aerotow_Primary_Release_p/14-9004.htm

After several dysfunctions encountered by tandem, using a V-bridle and a 145kg wl on the apex, so a maximum load of 83kg on this primary release, I sent 3 times this email to fly@hanglide.com (LMFP contact) without any answer !!! :
Hello

I recently purchased one of your Aerotow Primary Releases for use in aerotowing tandem gliders. We conduct a tandem aerotowing operation just south of Paris, France.

We have been having considerable trouble releasing when the line is under high tension. It takes considerable effort to pull the Rope-Loop release, often requiring two or three violent tugs on the loop. Obviously, this is a considerable safety concern.

One possible reason for the difficulty is the fact that there is some play in the barrel, which does not fit 100% snugly against the main block. When there is tension on the line, the release catch tilts the barrel very slightly, which may have the effect of increasing friction and causing the barrel to catch (there is very slight burring on the main release block as a result of this tendancy).

I would appreciate any feedback you may have on this problem. If this is not an isolated case, and is in fact a design flaw that you have rectified in subsequent models, I would like to know the procedure for acquiring the updated model. If it is simply a problem with this particular item then I would like to have it replaced.

I look forward to your reply.

Regards
I bought with a friend 2 of them. He recieved them and never sent me this you can't consult before to have paid :
GT Manufacturing Inc. (GT) and Lookout Mountain Flight Park Inc. (LMFP) make no claim of serviceability of this tow equipment. There is no product liability insurance covering this gear and we do not warrant this gear as suitable for towing anything. We make no claim of serviceability in any way and recommend that you do not use this aerotow gear if you are not absolutely sure how to use it and or if you are unwilling to assume the risk. Towing and flying hang gliders is inherently dangerous.

If properly used, there is a minimum of three ways to release from the towline. Do not depend on any of these ways by themselves and fly with a back up. The first release is the primary release which under certain situations may fail, second, is the secondary release that works most of the time, if all is set up correctly, and third, the weak link which will break under the right load. You should also fly with a hook knife that will allow you to cut the line if need be.

GT and LMFP Inc. assume no liability for the function and serviceability of this equipment. If you are uncomfortable with the risk of using this tow gear you will need to get gear that you are comfortable with or do not tow. There is an inherent risk in towing hang gliders that you must assume if you want to use this gear and you want to tow. Learn and understand the risk and the use of this gear. Your safety depends on it.

The new GT aerotow release, new as of July 11th 2009, is designed to be used with a V bridle and a 13O-pound green stripe Dacron tournament fishing line weak link. At this time it is not recommended to use this release with a higher value weak link. We are confident that with an ultimate load of 130 pounds at the release point, the new GT aerotow release works better than all cable releases that we have experience with.
Incredible ! That's for sure not the definition of a suitable and reliable release !!

In France, this type of warning is worthless in terms of justice.
From here we have the image of a U.S. court where the issue of money is fundamental and can ruin your life.
The way to do of LMFP is totally unreasonable not to mention the fact that they did a version 2.0 and work on a v3.0 without making any safety advert for their customers !
From where I live, I already know 2 other US pilots who had trouble !!
Stop !
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1558/25912821781_ced007a9d6_o.jpg
Image

Yeah. All EXTREMELY popular. And yet...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?
Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.

I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.
So if these wonders of human engineering are all so very popular then why do you think you've seen so much "experimentation" with other approaches by individual weekend warrior types? Name ANY OTHER FLYING EQUIPMENT - stuff that goes up in the air - that's being developed by private amateur flyers. Sails, frame components, connecting hardware, harnesses, parachutes, helmets, wheels...? Also... Name ANY OTHER FLYING EQUIPMENT that's expected to fail in both emergency and routine situations and does so with such frequency that the failures aren't deemed worthy of reporting or advisories?
Many others have fallen by the way side.
"Many others" being Lockout Mountain Flight Park's spinnaker shackle based previous both-hands-on-the-basetube model...
Ralph Sickinger - 2000/08/26 22:18:20

Under sled conditions (2000/08/26 18:00 EDT), I decided to borrow Brian Vant-Hull's glider instead of setting up my own, since we both fly the same type of glider. Brian's release is a different style, but I tested it twice during preflight to make sure I was familiar with it. After towing to altitude, Sunny waved me off; I pulled on the release (hard), but nothing happened! After the second failed attempt to release, I thought about releasing from the secondary, but before I could move my hand the tug stalled and started to fall; Sunny had no choice but to gun the engine in attempt to regain flying speed, but this resulted in a sudden and severe pull on the harness and glider; I was only able to pull on the release again, while simultaneously praying for the weak link to break. The release finally opened, and I was free of the tug.
Brian Vant-Hull - 2000/08/28 22:49:13

I purchased my release (the one Ralph used) at Lookout Mountain over a year ago, but never had any problems until the Ridgely Fly-In, where the same thing happened. I pulled three or four times on the release, then finally went to the secondary, by which time I was high above the tug and Sunny (is there a connection here?) was frantically waving me off.
...that Ridgely stopped selling very early in its history, seen here at Whitewater:

http://forum.hanggliding.org/download/file.php?id=11565
Image
Image
http://forum.hanggliding.org/download/file.php?id=11566

on the basetube of the late former crop duster pilot Roy Messing shortly before his untimely and inexplicable fatal lockout crash thirteen days into his solo AT career. Lockout discontinued it upon developing...
The new GT aerotow release, new as of July 11th 2009, is designed to be used with a V bridle and a 13O-pound green stripe Dacron tournament fishing line weak link. At this time it is not recommended to use this release with a higher value weak link. We are confident that with an ultimate load of 130 pounds at the release point, the new GT aerotow release works better than all cable releases that we have experience with.
...what they were confident that with an ultimate load of 130 pounds at the release point works better than all cable releases that they have experience with - but, strangely don't use on their tandem gliders. For those they continue to use...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg65528o5-U

1-2602
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5549/13995699911_14ebe6da3f_o.png
Image

...the Wallaby Release that one of the coauthors of the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden, and many others have publicly denounced as a dangerous piece of shit.

So what's you're reasoning behind NOT mentioning Joe Street's release?:

http://www.getoffrelease.com/
Image

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29274
release
Zack C - 2013/06/15 23:43:24 UTC

I've been using one for nearly two years and consider it the best commercially available release. It took a little experimentation to get it set up optimally initially, and I think the spring is too heavy, but I see he now offers a lighter spring as an option.

Some additional comments from another pilot:
http://ozreport.com/16.19#1
http://vimeo.com/39629167

password - red

How 'bout the one point Russian bite controlled releases?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFiJDmAq_Ao

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JjtEnudT8Y


You've never heard of them before? They're not worth mentioning?
There's still a few experimental ones out there.
- Oh. There are STILL a few "experimental" ones out there? Meaning there used to be lots of them but natural selection is gradually weeding them out of the gene pool?

- What's an "experimental" release? One that...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16384
Tow Release Malfunction
Jim Rooney - 2010/03/26 20:54:43 UTC

Dude, quit bogarting that stuff ;)
How's it go? Never say never.

Bent pin releases are indeed very very reliable. But 100%? Nope. It's exceptionally rare, but they jam. All mechanical things do.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?
Jim Rooney - 2011/02/06 18:35:13 UTC

I don't really have anything against the Kotch release.
I think it's big, clunky and expensive, but I'm sure it works fine.
I'm also sure it has it's problems just like any other system. The minute someone starts telling me about their "perfect"system, I start walking away.
...hasn't locked up yet and thus proven it's up to Aerotow Industry standards and established a proper track record?
They tend to scare the crap out of me...
How very odd. Aren't the people who are actually developing and going up on these "experimental" releases obviously doing so because the releases you and your asshole buddies are providing them scare the crap out of them?

For example...

http://ozreport.com/9.009
2005 Worlds
Davis Straub - 2005/01/11

Rohan Holtkamp did an analysis of the accident, in particular the bridle and weaklink, which never broke. The weaklink was caught on the release mechanism, a standard spinnaker release found on bridle systems used at Lookout Mountain, Moyes, Wallaby Ranch, and Quest Air. The release clamp has an arm that is thicker at the release point and this held onto the weaklink which consisted of multiple loops of thick line.

This type of release mechanism has been banned (at least for a short while) from the Worlds at Hay.
An Industry Standard spinnaker shackle based aerotow release, such as is used in release systems by Lockout, Moyes, Wallaby, Quest, was found to have killed Robin Strid and the finding was never disputed by ANYONE - including Bill Moyes, Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey, Davis Straub, Steve Kroop, Russell Brown, Bo Hagewood, Trisa Tilletti, Dennis Excellent-Book Pagen, Bill Bryden, Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt, Adam Elchin, Sunny Venesky, Paulen Tjaden, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney.

Did banning it for a short while from the 2005 Worlds at Hay fix the problem? Or was the idea to ground them long enough for them to stop scaring the crap out of people?

What is it that you're seeing that's scaring the crap out of you that's not scaring the crap out of the people using them and others? Shouldn't somebody with an intellect as keen as yours and your vast amount of experience be able to look at these mechanisms and quickly identify any problems and explain the issues to us weekend warrior muppets?
...and I tend to refuse to tow people with them.
You TEND TO? But I thought...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?
Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
...you flat out refused to tow them across the board. Have you become less sure of yourself after an additional three years of experience?

How badly were you traumatized by the tragic and totally inexplicable death of your dear friend Zack Marzec at Quest less than a week shy of a year ago? He was using proven equipment with a huge track record and nobody worth listening to has even hinted at any possibility that there was anything wrong with the equipment or the response to the situation by either Zack Marzec or his tug pilot.

Given that this remains to this day a complete mystery is it possible that there was some unseen and unknowable flaw in the equipment that one or more of these "experimental" systems might not have? Is it this nagging doubt that's causing you to soften your position?
3. Are hook knifes mandatory!? (And a storage location)
Nope.
Hook knives NOT MANDATORY? ARE YOU COMPLETELY OUT OF YOUR MIND?! What are you gonna do when your very very reliable...

1:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJGUJO5BjnA


...bent pin release jams - as all mechanical things inevitably do?
4. Rope length? And rope type??
Spectra...
Spectra? So how come Bill Moyes and Bobby Bailey...

http://ozreport.com/9.009
2005 Worlds
Davis Straub - 2005/01/11

The rope length will be increased from 60 meters to 90 meters and from spectra to poly to increase the stretch in the rope and help out with the new weaker weak links.
...went to poly right after Robin was killed? Were they wrong? Have they stated they were wrong and taken a position on Spectra?
150ft.
Since when?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC

The tow aircraft was a Moyes Dragonfly with a 914 Rotax engine and was piloted by a highly experienced tow pilot. The tow line was approximately 250 feet long which is standard and Zach was using the "pro tow" method where the tow line is attached directly to a bridle on the pilot's harness and is not attached to the glider at all. A standard 130 pound test weak link was being used.
The Quest folk - who'd been perfecting aerotowing for twenty years - were using 250 at the time of Zack's death.
Again, best practice dominates.
So 150 suddenly dominates now? If they were using a towline length two thirds over what they should've been is it possible that they were also off by a factor of two thirds on the standard 130 pound test weak link?

If they reduced weak link strength to the same extent they reduced towline length they'd be using 78 pound test fishing line. That would be 0.6 Gs for Zack. Is that the new best practice to which everyone's standardizing?

Is Morningside standardizing to 0.6 Gs? Sounds to me like...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

The accepted standards and practices changed.
Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink.
...the accepted standards are going the other way by a very similar proportion. That would've been 1.6 Gs for Zack. Think he'd have been any worse off at 1.6 than he was at 1.0?
Nothing is in stone.
Really?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.
Sounds like 130 pound Greenspot has been pretty set in stone for a very long time. If the accepted standards are suddenly shifting around as much as they are isn't the inescapable conclusion that you and all your tug driver buddies are totally clueless and totally full of shit?
In general, the towing scene is pretty standard just due to evolution... that which works stays, that which doesn't fades away.
Right. Forty years ago there was this crappy argument that...
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson.
...rope breaks and premature releases were the primary DANGERS to towed hang gliders. And then, after less than seven years of evolution, Donnell Hewett figured out that if you used a rope which broke at no more than the flying weight of the glider it wouldn't be able to get out of control enough to progress into a lockout or dangerously high pitch attitude and upon the breakage the glider would be instantly returned to safe controlled free flight.

The old misconception faded away like a fly flattened by a cinder block and gliders crashed and pilots injured and killed as consequences of rope breaks and premature releases faded from the accident reports with similar speed.

And during the Dragonfly promo tour in 1991 ALL gliders were towed two point with panic snap mechanisms...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8319482072/
Image
Image
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8319484072/

...and cable lanyards with actuator loops on the basetube. And then Bobby figured out that this offered no real safety advantage and adopted bicycle brake lever actuators velcroed to downtubes and people immediately stopped dying as consequences of inaccessible releases and started dying because they:
- thought they could fix bad things and didn't want to start over
- made no effort to release
- just froze
There's been little tweaks here and there over the years, but not much has changed.
Right. Like after 130 pound fishing line was carefully determined using trail and error over quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows to be the ideal aerotow weak link material and Morningside tweaked it to 200.

And when Russell Brown found that he couldn't get any gliders airborne in light morning conditions using single loops of 130 pound Greenspot...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
...he tweaked them up to double loops.
What does change is the "random guy" operations out there slowly come to understand why we do things the way we do and usually wind up adopting the practices of the large operations.
Really, motherfucker? Cite some examples.
To them, things have "changed" or "improved".
Like Deltaman, for example...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Antoine Saraf - 2013/02/16 22:41:36 UTC

How is that possible to write so much ..and say NOTHING !?

One of the question asked several times was what he thinks Greenspot 'works' to do, but...
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

I'll answer actual questions if you're keen to actually hear the answers...
...he only answers "actual questions"

As far as I can see, his position can be boiled down to 'we use this because this is what we use.' And somehow asserting this constitutes 'refuting' something...
We've been doing it this way for a long time however and are happy when they "catch up".
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http://ozreport.com/pub/images/Jrs_2010.jpg
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Fuckin' asshole.
---
Edit - 2014/01/27 16:04:00 UTC
1.Dose the HG pilot and tug pilot have radio communications or at least from the HG pilot to the tug?
Oh. That was a direct quote from Ross Miller in the post immediately but a week prior.

- It's considered SOP and would help a great deal if when using direct/exact quotes you format like THIS:
I'll take a stab at it...
1.Dose the HG pilot and tug pilot have radio communications or at least from the HG pilot to the tug?
No.
- You're still a moron. You're constantly babbling on about your vast experience and high degree of professionalism but refering to the device that you had dangling behind your knees on your last foot launched tandem flight as a "caribiner" and the component of the tow system that runs between two attachment points and through the tow ring as a "bridal".
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1166
Too many death
Jim Rooney - 2014/01/25 21:55:10 UTC

In general, the towing scene is pretty standard just due to evolution... that which works stays, that which doesn't fades away.
Take the standard aerotow weak link for example - single loop of 130 pound Greenspot on one end of a one or two point bridle with the knot positioned so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.
Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlIGsgNFRWM


There is almost no other fishing line in use that protects your aircraft against overloading better. Steve Seibel...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links
Steve Seibel - 2012/08/18 16:22:36 UTC

Based on my cumulative experience so far I would opt for a SLIGHTLY weaker weak link (those loads got alarmingly high!).
...thinks it's slightly heavy, a million comp pilots...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up.
...think it's about half the strength it should be, and...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.
...all tug pilots think it's perfect. So on the average people think it works perfectly.

Looking at one of the more important functions of the weak link, to limit the severity of lockouts to a safe and manageable degree, we see that the standard aerotow weak link will...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Marc Fink - 2011/08/28 21:11:09 UTC

I once locked out on an early laminarST aerotowing. went past vertical and past 45 degrees to the line of pull-- and the load forces were increasing dramatically. The weaklink blew and the glider stalled--needed every bit of the 250 ft agl to speed up and pull out. I'm alive because I didn't use a stronger one.
...limit roll to a bit beyond vertical and altitude loss to 250 feet - both figures obviously well within the comfort levels of all student and rated AT pilots as no one is opting for lighter weak links or not hiding the knot from the main tension in the link as well is it is now.
Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Weak links very clearly will provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns and the like for this form of towing.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke.
Donnell Hewett - 1980/12

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation."
No problem whatsoever in that department. When your glider starts climbing at a high angle of attack...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545
Cart stuck incidents
Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC

I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18777
Accident - Broken Jaw - Full Face HG Helmet
Keith Skiles - 2010/08/28 05:20:01 UTC

Last year, at LMFP I saw an incident in aerotow that resulted in a very significant impact with the ground on the chest and face. Resulted in a jaw broken in several places and IIRC some tears in the shoulder.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 19:41:27 UTC

Yes, go read that incident report.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability. She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
That never goes well.
Yet people insist on doing it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTKIAvqd7GI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


...you can count on the standard aerotow weak link working.

Instant hands free release...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.

During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?

Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release Image
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3725/9665623251_612b921d70_o.png
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Drag protection...

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http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg
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http://ozreport.com/pub/images/Jrs_2010.jpg
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But the most important function of the weak link is to prevent the glider from getting so far out of whack that it...

http://ozreport.com/3.066
Weaklinks
Davis Straub - 1999/06/06

During the US Nationals I wrote a bit about weaklinks and the gag weaklinks that someone tied at Quest Air. A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.

The problem with strong links (neither Bobby Bailey nor I was aware at the time of the US Nationals that pilots were doing this) is that they endanger the tug pilot. If the hang glider pilot goes into a lock out, and doesn't break the weaklink (because there isn't one), they can stall the tug.
...endangers the tug pilot and stalls and crashes the tug. The standard solo aerotow weak link works superbly for this function on a solo - as does the standard tandem aerotow weak link on a tandem - except, of course, when the tug is in actual danger of stalling and crashing.

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http://ozreport.com/forum/files/1_214.jpg
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Then it doesn't work because the glider doesn't have time enough to achieve the 95 degree lockout roll...

32-42004
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...necessary to break the weak link. But hey...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 19:49:08 UTC

No system is perfect, so pointing out flaws is easy and can always be accomplished.
No system is perfect, so pointing out flaws is easy and can always be accomplished.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Picking up from:

http://www.kitestrings.org/post5611.html#p5611

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Zack C - 2013/02/13 15:02:38 UTC

Can you explain, then, exactly how we arrived at the current 130 lb weak link standard?
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/13 19:09:33 UTC

It was already worked out by the time I arrived.
The reason it sticks?
Trail and error.

Every now and then someone comes along with the "new" idea of a stronger weaklink. Eventually, they scare themselves with it and wind up back with one that has a very proven track record. I mean really... no exaggeration... hundreds of thousands of tows.

Say what you will, but if you want to argue with *that* much history, well, you better have one hell of an argument... which you don't.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35893
Fingers
Jim Rooney - 2014/01/28 10:32:59 UTC

The next bit that mucks things up is that so few out there, even people that can land well, weren't taught how to do so.
Some have worked it out, generally through a lot of trail and error, but they were never taught it.
The trouble with that is that they consequently don't know how to teach it.
Another great smoking gun moment.

EVERYTHING that is done, developed, taught in aviation has a foundation in THEORY. Even this total asshole...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1LbRj-NN9U


...is teaching Rooney Link recovery - glider straight and level, in control, climbing fine instantly stalled low by the abrupt increase in the safety of the towing operation - on a foundation of THEORY.

Foot landing threads are eternally wildly popular because:

- nobody can ever master foot landings to the point at which they're safe

- they never get nasty and violent because invalid OPINIONS are quickly debunked by rational explanations of the underlying theory

- the underlying theory is:

-- simple enough that it can be comprehended by the average twat who flies hang gliders

-- complicated enough that it's right at the limit of what can be comprehended by the average twat who flies hang gliders and thus refresher courses are in constant demand

Elements of landing theory:
- airspeed / angle of attack
- twist / washout - angle of attack decreases as one moves outboard
- stall
- airspeed versus groundspeed
- gradient
- ground effect
- rotor

Hang glider control and towing theory is far beyond the comprehension level of all but a tiny percentage of the participants of the sport and light years beyond the comprehension of the instructors, tow operators, tug drivers, elected leadership, appointed officials.

Elements:
- differential wire tension
- wing warping
- adverse yaw
- yaw stability
- tow force transmission
- roll instability / lockout
- function of the weak link
- difference between a release and a weak link
- understanding of:
-- how a locking or locked out glider responds to an attempt to fly with one hand
-- what happens to an out of control glider upon separation from tow

It wasn't until shortly before 1979/09/26 that somebody figured out that the lower bridle attachment needed to come off the basetube and go onto the pilot. And that somebody was Brian Pattenden - whom nobody had heard of before and hasn't been heard from since - and NOT John Dickenson, Francis Rogallo, Bill Moyes, Bill Bennett, Bob Trampenau, Peter Brock, Wills Wing, Dennis Pagen.

And unfortunately a physics professor with zilch in the way of understanding of high school physics also figured out a variation of the same thing a short time later and wrote a bunch of clueless hundred percent wrong accompanying crap which he presented - diligently, tirelessly, and with great success - as theory.

And this near total vacuum of sound theory was very shortly exploited by a veritable army of quacks, con artists, snake oil salesmen, thieves, sociopaths, serial killers who seized the high ground and began a coordinated defense of everyone and everything that held the slightest threat of sound theory.

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots
The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2014/01/29

Welcome to Wallaby Ranch, the first and largest Aerotow Hang Gliding Flight Park in the World! We're the aerotowing (or "AT") professionals; no-one knows AT like we do; it's all we do, and we do it everyday, year-round. This primer will teach you the basics of AT theory and technique. Our instructors have fine-tuned this system over the course of many years, while teaching thousands of people how to aerotow hang gliders. Careful study of this material will make your transition to AT faster, easier, less expensive, and safer. When done properly, AT is your gateway to longer, higher, hassle-free flights, and more airtime with less effort than ever before.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.

I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.

Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.

So, argue all you like.
I don't care.
I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.
I could be more political about it, but screw it... I'm not in the mood to put up with tender sensibilities... Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing. I've got thousands upon thousands of tows under my belt. I don't know everything, but I'll wager the house that I've got it sussed a bit better than an armchair warrior.
Trust us. We know what we're doing so you don't have to. Besides, know way in hell are you or will you ever be capable of understanding what we do.

Landing...

- Trail and error - stumbling-around-in-the-dark school of learning - can get you to the point of reasonable proficiency but you'll never be able to understand and teach it because you have no foundation in theory and your skills will die with you.

Towing...

- Trail and error - stumbling-around-in-the-dark school of learning - is the only way we chosen few of the priesthood were able to advance to the state of near perfection we've achieved to date and is the only way we'll be able to clear the hurdle to the final percentage point.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 06:04:23 UTC

Hahahaha.
That seriously made me chuckle.

I get what you're saying Christopher.
Please understand that I'm not advocating professional infalliblity. Not really sure where I mentioned that, but I can understand where you might have drawn that assumption. None the less, I simply refer to "us" as the "professional pilots" as a term to describe the pilots that do this for a living. Yes, we're just humans... bla bla bla... my point is that we do this a whole sh*tload more than the "average pilot"... and not just a little more... a LOT.

We discuss this stuff a lot more as well. We vet more ideas. This isn't just "neat stuff" to us... it's very real and we deal with it every day.

It's not "us" that has the track record... it's our process.
We're people just like anyone else. And that's the point. THIS is how we do it... normal, fallible humans... and it bloody well works.

So I don't give much credence to something that someone doesn't agree with about what we do for some theoretical reason.
Take your theory and shove it.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots
The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2014/01/29

Welcome to Wallaby Ranch, the first and largest Aerotow Hang Gliding Flight Park in the World! We're the aerotowing (or "AT") professionals; no-one knows AT like we do; it's all we do, and we do it everyday, year-round.
Wow Malcolm!

- So what are some of the things that you've learned about aerotowing from doing it every day, year round - rain, shine, thunderstorms, hurricanes - that you're not letting anybody know about?

- Aren't your earlier students a lot more likely to be killed than your later students since you were teaching them a lot of crap that was flat out wrong?

- Or maybe you're putting out advisories just to your old students. But what if your old students have passed on to others the dangerous misinformation you taught them? Shouldn't these advisories be totally public?

- So you're the first and largest Aerotow Hang Gliding Flight Park in the World! You've been doing this since 1991 - well over two decades ago - and no one knows AT like you do? Guess you guys totally suck at teaching this stuff.

- Is that the way the faculty of a high school biology department works? We've been teaching this shit for over two decades and no way in hell any of our students are ever gonna get it as well as we do?

- Is that why Tony Ameo got killed flying into a tree during an approach for a spot landing? 'Cause you guys hold back on the training a bit 'cause you don't want anyone to know AT like you do?

- Zack Marzec got killed at Quest up the road less that 22 miles away a wee bit under a year ago. Quest has no idea what went wrong or how to make things safer for the next guy. They don't know AT like you do and - since you had absolutely no comment on the incident, even to tell us muppets when we were obviously heading down the wrong speculative paths - it's a no brainer that you understood what went wrong and are holding out 'cause you don't want anyone to know AT like you do. Couldn't you just give us that much? Or would that totally blow everything that you know that no one else does?
This primer will teach you the basics of AT theory and technique.
- THEORY?!

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?
Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 06:04:23 UTC

It is industry standard.
It is what *WE* use.

If someone's got a problem with it... we've got over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND TANDEM TOWS and COUNTLESS solo tows that argue otherwise. So they can politely get stuffed.

As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in reality... but does it work in theory?"
Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot ;)
What the fuck good is THEORY?

- Oh. The BASICS. Good enough. We don't really need to know the stuff that you know like no one else does either 'cause:
-- it's a bunch of useless trivial crap; or
-- you don't really give a rat's ass if we go out and get crippled or killed 'cause we didn't the whole picture.
Our instructors have fine-tuned this system over the course of many years...
See? Trail and error. The theory stuff is a load of crap - just like I said.
...while teaching thousands of people how to aerotow hang gliders.
How many thousands? How does the fatality rate for the first thousand when you didn't have your shit together compare to that of the last thousand when you really had your shit together?
Careful study of this material will make your transition to AT faster, easier, less expensive, and safer.
Not as safe as you guys, of course, 'cause no one knows AT like you do.
When done properly, AT is your gateway to longer, higher, hassle-free flights, and more airtime with less effort than ever before.
C'mon. How 'bout letting us have the really good stuff? What'll it take? There's gotta be some dollar figure for which Coca-Cola will reveal its secret formula. And you don't really want the really good stuff to die with you, right?
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots
The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2014/01/29

Welcome to Wallaby Ranch, the first and largest Aerotow Hang Gliding Flight Park in the World! We're the aerotowing (or "AT") professionals; no-one knows AT like we do; it's all we do, and we do it everyday, year-round. This primer will teach you the basics of AT theory and technique. Our instructors have fine-tuned this system over the course of many years, while teaching thousands of people how to aerotow hang gliders. Careful study of this material will make your transition to AT faster, easier, less expensive, and safer. When done properly, AT is your gateway to longer, higher, hassle-free flights, and more airtime with less effort than ever before.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12403
weak link table
ian9toes - 2009/06/14 15:18:37 UTC
Gold Coast, Queensland

I strongly disagree with banning the one guy who has the most knowledge about safety issues involving what I believe is the most dangerous part of our sport. I hear someone dies every year from towing. I hope SG bites his tongue in the interest of public safety.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Steve Davy - 2011/08/31 10:11:32 UTC

Zack figured it out. Well done Zack! Enjoy your vacation.
Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC

Well actually he didn't. But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...
Kite Strings - 2014/01/29

Welcome to Kite Strings, the tow park Tad runs, last and smallest Aerotow Hang Gliding Flight Park in the World!

I'm a former aerotowing (or "AT") weekend warrior with 184 aerotows, between 1986/08/01 and 2008/10/12, under my belt - fewer than a major towpark does on a good weekend.

But I know AT a lot better than any of the assholes you're gonna find running these operations and writing texts and about as well as anyone on the planet because I understand the underlying theory and know the history behind how everything has gone down the sewer to the extent it has.

And since I've been persona non grata at just about every AT operation in North America north of the Rio Grande since going into whistleblower mode in the spring of 2009, running Kite Strings is just about all I do, damn near every day, year round.

Although I'm at or near the top of this game the reason is not because aerotowing is that difficult to thoroughly understand or that I'm all that smart. It's because there's been a massive global disinformation campaign orchestrated primarily by the US industry in the interest of ensuring that it never be held accountable for anything it ever does - regardless of how incompetent, unethical, negligent, illegal, outrageous it is.

Come over here and I'll be happy to teach you, for free, everything you need to know to become a safe competent AT pilot:
- hang glider towing theory
- inherent dangers/risks and how to avoid and manage them
- equipment options and issues
- takeoff, towing, flying, approaching, landing strategies and techniques
- incompetent motherfuckers you need to avoid like plutonium

Before I give you the nod you will understand everything you really need to know at least as well as I do and you may very well catch mistakes I've made and help me to become a better pilot, instructor, equipment designer - as other participants here have done before you.

And you'll be able to pass this knowledge and technology on to others who will hopefully have and implement some ideas of their own for advancing this branch of the sport and help make me obsolete.

But if you decide to go elsewhere just be aware that any instructor you work with whose goal isn't to send you on your way as good or a better pilot than he is is fucking you over. And anyone who tells you to just trust him on any issue and/or that something has been worked out through trail and error has no clue what he's talking about and is a motherfucker you need to avoid like plutonium - especially if there's any possibility of him ever being at the upwind end of your rope.
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36049
Tandem launch: Scared customer.
Jaco Herbst - 2014/01/31 8:54:31 UTC

I'm waiting for this customer to load up the launch video (taken from his iPhone by my gf).

This dude (25 years old) was petrified from the start and actually said he wants to quit (after hooked in and checked, minutes before take off).
I aborted the operation and advised him to ask his money back and to do this at a later stage (in future) when he feels up to it.
The site operator intervened and (seeing only $ signs) convinced him (the customer) to give it another go.
I was getting ready to fly solo but this bloke pleaded to take him up. See, I do this for a hobby and not for the dollars.

Look at the picture and see why I was right in my initial judgement BUT wrong in accepting to take this dude up.



What happened nest?
I have no fuckin' idea. I can't see anything.
P.S. I hope Jim (for one) can chime in here and list (alphabetically) what is wrong here.
---
EDIT - 2014/02/01 03:05:59 UTC:
1. next not nest, hence David's conclusion of a tree landing...lol
2. link open to public
Yep. Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney WOULD BE...
The Press - 2006/03/15

The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) is urgently pushing for new hang-gliding industry standards after learning a hang-gliding pilot who suffered serious injuries in a crash three weeks ago had not clipped himself on to the glider.

Extreme Air tandem gliding pilot James (Jim) Rooney safely clipped his passenger into the glider before departing from the Coronet Peak launch site, near Queenstown, CAA sports and recreation manager Rex Kenny said yesterday.

However, he took off without attaching himself.

In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.

Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.

It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?
Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.
...your go-to guy for issues regarding scared customers.
David Williamson - 2014/01/31 11:02:22 UTC

I can't view any photos but do you mean that you landed in a tree?
Beats hitting powerlines or slamming into runways as consequences of Rooney Links increasing the safety of the towing operation or having whatever was going on back there by your Pilot In Command giving you the rope.
Davis Straub - 2014/01/31 12:44:54 UTC

The video is private.
As is The Davis Show itself.
Jim Rooney - 2014/01/31 17:52:13 UTC

Ok, now I'm all sorts of curious :)
I can't see the photo/video either though... it says it's private.
I'm sure it's nothing with which you have no experience and/or you haven't perpetrated on many others.
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