That's OK. You're a pro. You can handle it. Just make your arms longer.
Weak link breaks before I go into total lockout.
Yeah, of course. That's what its purpose is. If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble. If it senses that you're not doing a good enough job controlling the glider it'll take over as Pilot In Command to make sure you never get into a situation a whole lot worse than THIS:
Proven system. I mean really, no exaggeration - hundreds of thousands of tows. And if it breaks at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation...
A mere inconvenience. This fishing line has a simply amazing amount of experience. I mean really, no exaggeration - hundreds of thousands of tows.
Great job landing. As long as you're upright and stay on your feet it doesn't matter if you touch down with no airspeed in a thirty degree roll and drop the nose into the dirt.
parallaxax - 1:07
Pilot-induced oscillation. Difficult not to be tempted to overcontrol.
Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm always fighting the impulse to roll back beyond the point at which I'm level and lined up behind the tug.
Maybe if you used a three point bridal - one the splits the tow pressure in half between you and you and the glider - you'd have better luck with that. But hell, you're the pro. What do I know?
jwm239
A good recovery after such a fast climb!
And a great landing! Did you see the way he spared no effort...
I got news for ya... When the planes are off the ground ALL aerotows are windy.
...or bar not pulled in enough?
0:18. Look at the bar position and arms extension. How much more can he pull in to get the nose and glider down using that idiot pro toad configuration?
parallaxax
Yeah, caught a bit of a gust there...
Yeah, that was your problem - a bit of a gust.
Good luck, dude. And make sure you keep that camera rolling.
Garrett Speeter - 2014/03/25 00:35:34 UTC
Fairbanks
Anyone have a pic of the truck towing loops on a WW Z5 harness handy?
I would appreciate it... Thanks
Matt Christensen - 2014/03/25 02:11:41 UTC
If you need some added, consider talking to Steve Wendt at Blue Sky. He does more truck towing than anyone...
Yeah. And when you do more truck towing than anyone else that automatically makes you a top notch manufacturer of truck towing equipment. Like when you do more XC flying than anyone else that automatically makes you a top notch electrical engineer in the instrument deck department.
Thanks, guys. Yeah, tipvortex clued me in with a PM. I forgot that was Tad's alias here. After a while I just ignored all his preaching and just hoped the FAA would do the same.
Looks like the straight pin would be OK. I may still send the 6 I ordered back to Blue Sky. The barrels vary in length between 35mm and 50mm and there isn't a twist to lay the webbing flat in the Lark's Head knot. Also the webbing is bulkier then needed. The manufacturing seems a little sloppy, unfortunately.
And you can get straight or bent pin style backup releases while you're there.
Garrett Speeter - 2014/03/25 03:03:43 UTC
Thanks guys!
Yep. Those are definitely the guys you wanna be talking to.
Mine doesn't have them. I wanted to see where/how they are attached so I can sew some on.
Sew them on YOURSELF? You can't just sew truck tow loops on yourself. You need someone who's done tens of thousands of truck tows to sew them on for you.
Dan Lukaszewicz - 2014/03/25 13:13:53 UTC
The truck tow loops are easy to miss. On the Z5 they are sewn on the piece of webbing that is in line with the lower parachute buckle.
I also tow with Steve Wendt at Blue Sky. Steve prefers to route the towing bridle through the truck tow loops and then connect to the beaner rather than using them like aerotow loops.
Yeah, if you just run the bridle to the loops your harness could get torn apart by the tremendous tow pressures. And running it up to the carabiner cuts the force squeezing your hips together in half.
Any excuse to put more useless crap into the airflow.
Had another "in the airport" flight at Ridgely this afternoon...
Yeah...
Lauren Tjaden - 2003/12/14
This fall at Ridgely, I had a weak link break at maybe fifty feet. I thought I was going to have to land in the soybeans - the very tall soybeans - when I looked at my angle. But, my glider stalled quite dramatically almost instantly (hard not to stall when you have a break), and dove towards the ground (a bit disconcerting from so low).
Lotsa those at Ridgely.
...and was lucky that both Jim Rooney and I experienced only adrenaline surges without incident.
Lucky for both you and Jim Rooney. For hang gliding... Not so much.
I'm certain that it would have been significantly different had Rooney waited any longer to cut me loose. Here's what I've re-learned:
When you're on tow and you realize the tug is headed in a direction that you can't follow, chances are that any last ditch corrections are just wasting precious time! -> RELEASE, don't wait for the weak link to break...
Don't WAIT for the weak link to break? What the fuck are you talking about? The weak link...
If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break...
12-10013
...before you can get into too much trouble.
...has already broken.
...or the tug pilot to solve the problem!
- The tug pilot was Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney - one of the best in the business. Nothing like that rookie Keavy Nenninger who killed herself over there making a rookie mistake three seasons back - or Mark Knight earlier this season. Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney...
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
...can fix whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope even faster than the Rooney Link or you can. Besides, he's the Pilot In Command of your glider...
Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.
It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.
...until he waves you off. You can't just release any time you feel like it.
You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver. Passengers and skydivers can't just jump out of planes whenever they feel like it. So just wait for Jim to wave you off or fix whatever's going on back there or the weak link your Pilot In Command mandates you use to increase the safety of the towing operation.
- And make sure your release actuator is within easy reach in case Jim gives you the nod. You certainly wouldn't want to introduce another negative issue into an emergency situation.
Plus, if you've experienced a reoccurring control issue during tows that haven't resulted in premature releases -> Do Not ignore them!
Why not? Aerotowing is pretty much universally recognized and accepted as a crap shoot. If you try to fix one problem another will inevitably pop up and neutralize your efforts.
These are problems that could bite-hard at the wrong time!
No shit.
For example, during the initial climb on multiple tows, I've had difficulty staying level with the tug. Stuffing the bar to drop down to the tug was not working.
Have you tried trimming your keel anchor point to bring your glider into something resembling certified configuration? Just kidding.
I found myself waiting for Rooney to climb instead of quickly dropping down to his altitude.
Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke.
...Frutiger on his last flight at Quest early last year when his weak ling got tired of waiting!
During this phase of trying to fly down to the tug, lateral control was compromised as I was pulling in hard and, as a result, pilot induced oscillations were the norm.
Have you tried trimming your bridle? Just kidding.
I can't definitely say that today's problem was solely due to lack of full pitch control, as crosswind turbulence may have contributed.
Bullshit. And DO try to avoid talking about crosswinds after the tug's lifted off and you're tracking behind it.
However, after today's short flight both Sunny and Adam agree that pitch control was most likely compromised by my hanging four to five inches too high in the control frame.
- And Sunny and/or Adam and/or whatever assholes they've currently got working the head of the launch line couldn't have diagnosed that the first time you got on a cart?
- Did they say anything about the trim? Just kidding.
Plus, not rotating my body to a "shoulders low and feet high" position during the tow was also affecting pitch control.
How 'bout the trim? Ya think maybe those two shits are bending over backwards to not say anything about trim because that would be an admission that pro toad bridles are dangerous as hell and that issue was one of the two that got their colleague needlessly killed at the flight park that's been perfecting aerotowing for twenty years and setting the safety model for everybody else on the planet?
What was comfortable for mountain flights may have been only marginally acceptable on tow.
I totally disagree. On mountain flights there's no Rooney Link to increase your safety or professional pilot to act as your Pilot In Command for the first couple thousand feet of climb. Mountain flying can only handle about ten percent of the compromises that aerotowing can.
Didn't fly with my cameras yesterday but here are two photos from an uneventful tow this April that highlight some of the issues in the early phase of the tow (just before releasing the cart and recovering from the first thermal/turbulance). During the tow we flew through several significant thermals with the first starting at the end of the runway. Based on my body position in the second photo (taken just after leaving the airport), I'm surprised that I made it up to Rooney's wave off at ~2.5 k.
Wow, those pictures tell the whole story. You are on tow, but it looks like you are fully upright and ready to flare for a landing. I can see why that would affect your pitch control on tow. I'm glad a scary incident turned out okay for everyone involved.
How 'bout the bridle, Brad?
Jim Messina - 2014/05/04 17:45:51 UTC
I'm glad to hear that nothing bad happened to you or Jim.
If they'd both been killed I'd have been putting flowers on Ward's grave twice a year for the rest of my life. (That offer's good for anyone who can take that piece of shit down with him.)
I would have to agree with Adam and Sunny on the height above the base tube and body position...
- Duh.
- And I guess you would also have to agree with them on not saying anything about the bridle.
...however sometimes shit happens that can't be explained.
Yeah, most of what happens in aerotowing is beyond the scope of Newtonian physics.
A perfect example is the cover of last month's magazine. Ben Dunn, a highly experienced tow pilot, found himself in a compromising position...
Really? You call THIS:
a compromising position? I call it an inconvenience. Surely Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney taught you that the worst thing that can happen to a glider once the tension has been dumped is an inconvenience. "Compromising position" just never even enters into the equation.
...on the initial climb out after launch.
Right after going up on a pro toad bridle that left him near totally stuffed...
...just getting off the cart, getting blasted up by a dust devil, making the easy reach...
07-300
...towards his bent pin wonder release, getting dumped...
Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03
NEVER CUT THE POWER...
Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually
...by his driver. Just can't be explained. That must be why there was no article inside the magazine attempting to explain it. Guy using Industry Standard pro equipment, release within easy release, doing everything right, flying behind a top notch tug pilot and he ends up in a compromising position which damn near pile drives his head into the runway.
Oh well, can't be explained so let's not worry about it and continue discussing Ward's height above the basetube and body position.
From the photos it appears you are using a 3 point tow bridal...
Fuckin' moron.
...which should help pitch control compared to a pro tow system.
Oh! So a three point bridal would help with pitch control compared to a pro toad "system". But obviously pitch control had absolutely nothing to do with Ben Dunn compromising position and that remains totally inexplicable.
The problem I am seeing is that your body position is not allowing the 3 point system to spread out vertically and therefore the tow force is concentrated mainly on you and not the glider.
The motherfucker isn't flying a 3 point system. He's not even flying a 2 point system. He's flying a 1.3 point system and pretending it's a 2 point system.
I think if the release was positioned higher near the keel rather than at the bottom of your long hang strap it could help spread the force out.
Ya THINK?!?!
Ya think he could do the fucking job right and anchor it all the way up on the proper trim position?
I could be wrong but that is what I am seeing.
James Messina - 35626 - H4 - 1995/10/28 - Thomas Johnson - AT FL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
Ward Odenwald III - 22070 - H3 - 1980/02/28 - Larry King - AT - OBS
Who are the assholes signing you assholes off on these ratings?
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2014/03/14
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
11. Hang Gliding Special Skill Endorsements
-D. Aerotow
The aerotow skill is a demonstration of the pilot's ability to launch and tow successfully and safely behind a flying tow vehicle. In order to receive the special skill, a pilot must pass the AT written exam and demonstrate the following to an Aerotow Official:
01. Demonstrates the assembly and preflight of the system, including inspection of the tow line, tow line connection, tow bridles and releases.
2. Demonstrates understanding of signals between tow vehicle pilot and glider pilot. Must demonstrate system set up and pre-flight, including a complete discussion of all those factors which are particular to the specific aerotow system used and those factors which are relevant to aerotowing in general. Must demonstrate complete understanding of both normal and emergency procedures, including checklists for normal procedures, indications of possible impending emergencies and how to properly execute emergency procedures.
You're SUPPOSED to KNOW this shit - not offer it as a fucking OPINION with the qualifier that you may be wrong. If you think you may be wrong you should turn in your card until you KNOW you're RIGHT.
Feedback from those with experience in these matters is welcome.
- What the fuck does EXPERIENCE in these matters have to do with anything? What is it that a halfway intelligent ten year old kid can't totally get after fifteen or twenty seconds worth of explanation?
- It was the motherfuckers with EXPERIENCE that signed this asshole's ticket, set this potentially lethal situation up, did shit about the problems that he was routinely experiencing.
Thanks for posting on this. I would expect that Sunny and Adam would have the most insight into this issue but I thought I would make two points anyway.
Then why did they let it happen? Sunny's a waste of space and Adam's a dreg.
The first is to repeat your point that releasing early is a good option.
Yep...
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
Analyzing my incident made me realize that had I released earlier I probably would have hit the ground at high speed at a steep angle. The result may have been similar to that of the pilot in Germany. The normal procedure for a tow pilot, when the hang glider gets too high, is to release in order to avoid the forces from the glider pulling the tug nose-down into a dangerous dive. However Neal kept me on line until I had enough ground clearance, and I believe he saved me from injury by doing so. I gave him a heart-felt thank you.
Really hard to go wrong releasing before or when there's a problem. When in doubt...
Lemme tell ya sumpin' Tom... With the crap he's flying he should've released before the cart started rolling.
One reason why I like towing is that you can land and go back up again right away.
Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
guys? These guys both involved in whipstall incidents for which there are simply no credible explanations?
...(aka a pro bridle).
AKA:
- pro tow bridle
- pro tow bridal
- two point bridle
- two point bridle
Virtually NEVER a ONE point or MARZEC bridle.
I believe the pro bridle makes it slightly more difficult to control the glider on tow because you get pulled through the control frame more than when I am not on tow.
- It makes it WAY EASIER to control the glider cause, since all the towline tension is transmitted through the "pilot", his effective weight / control authority increases... UNLESS - He get's into a situation in which he needs the top half of his glider's normally available speed range. Then he's fucked.
- Why the fuck, decade and a half after those sleazebags moved into Ridgely and you started flying there, are you talking about your goddam BELIEFS? Isn't there ANYONE in this flavor of the sport who knows what the fuck he's talking about and can make FACTUAL STATEMENTS?
So I have been on the fence about using that system - even though I must have close to 200 tows with that system without an issue.
Great, Tom! And Davis has been flying Davis Links since the beginning of time and...
I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.
...has never had a serious problem with them - just an inconvenience now and then. And that not only makes them not dangerous - that makes them so wonderful that he mandates that EVERYONE fly with them, mostly in violation of FAA regulations.
But maybe it helps keep my head down and therefore may also give me relatively more control than a 3-point tow system (since you look pretty vertical).
Bullshit. Anybody who feels as safe pro toad as he does two point is down the ladder from a total moron. Even a total moron intuitively knows the edge got WAY closer when he removed the upper attachment.
My recollection is that a couple of others have 3-point tow bridle and a single hang point harness like you. Do they have the same pitch up posture as your pictures show?
Who gives a fuck? He's got an obvious total shit system. And you assholes were never the least bit interested...
Felix Cantesanu - 2014/05/05 03:29:15 UTC
Baltimore
Ward, it's interesting to see on those pictures that while still on the cart, the tow line being already tensioned you are pretty much parallel to the keel, this looks right. On tow you're way upright, as if you rotated up for landing. You should be able to maintain that angle of your body parallel to the keel or even more head down throughout the tow. It makes sense that if you're hanging too high it's harder to push in for speed, however you might be pushing yourself upwards instead of forwards and so you get such a head high position, making much more difficult to control pitch and roll.
You SHOULD be close enough to your normal position relative to the basetube/glider that you can PULL in for speed. I think this is the first time ever in my decades of hang gliding that I've heard anybody talking about PUSHING in for speed. Figures it would be in aerotowing.
I stayed and went through a lot footage of my tows; I had a similar setup to yours for a little while (three point bridle attached to chest and carabiner) - the body's position on tow is parallel to the keel (just like on your first picture, that's why that looked right to me).
You've just got ONE chest and ONE carabiner, right? Why not call it a TWO point bridle?
After switching to the two point...
...suicide...
..."pro tow" I am still pretty much parallel to the keel, perhaps just a hair head lower and a bit more forward, a pretty small difference.
If I were you I'd keep the current tow setup, get a hang loop that drops you much closer to the control bar and see if that makes it easier to stay pulled in and remain parallel to the keel instead of pushed head up.
If he extends the hang loop to where it SHOULD BE he also drops the carabiner he's using as his release anchor point and he goes from towing 1.3 point to 1.2 or 1.1 point. Goddam right it'll make it easier to stay pulled in but he won't be doing anything pulled in. With the bar stuffed he'll be flying about trim. Can you think of any possible downsides to that?
Take this with a grain of salt, I'm no expert, just an observation.
And apparently you can't even NAME an "EXPERT" from whom he can get straight accurate information. How come:
- those fucking parasites at Ridgely who set him up for that incident aren't on that wire with some black and white statements?
- you're not referring him to the chapter in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden, that covers these issues?
- there's no relevant Higher Education article by Dr. Trisa Tilletti in the magazine?
Looking forward to sharing the cloud base air with you again soon.
Sure. Continue towing that configuration in good thermal conditions. What's the worst that could happen?
Peter Kane - 2014/05/05 21:46:29 UTC
You look head high in the cart. Your elbows are barely bent.
See above. How much bend do you see in Jonny Durand's elbows just coming off the cart?
3-21400
THIS:
8-63801
is as far back as he moves the bar to build the speed he needs for a loop:
9-64302
And here's a decent resolution shot of his bar position in normal free flight:
It looks like there isn't much VG line pulled and stowed either.
Fuck the VG line. Falcons tow just fine behind Dragonflies with almost no VG on. How 'bout dealing with the goddam fundamental issue. Guess that would be asking a bit much from a culture that can't figure out what one and two point bridles are.
So, I would get my head down when in the cart. This will give you much more control.
Until...
...you actually NEED it.
As far as pitch is concerned, you should have something around 1/2 VG pulled. You should only have about 2/4 lbs of effort in pitch when on tow.
Where should the fuckin' bar be when they're climbing out normally?
With little pitch effort you will be able to control roll much easier.
Yeah, just ask Holly Korzilius. No, better ask the eyewitnesses - she doesn't remember much of that tow.
Remember when making roll controls on tow (especially on a topless) don't wait for weight shift, bump the control bar hard and fast as soon as you recognize the need. If you weight shift and wait for the correction it's too late and you will need to make an opposite control input to get yourself in line again (PIO).
He HAS an AT rating and been getting to altitude successfully every once in a while.
Just my 2 cents worth, Peter
Yeah, there's lotsa that around. Really helpful of lotsa best case scenario situations.
...from the video he uploaded on the last full day of his life. Any comment?
Arms straight.
Zack's arms are pretty straight too but he's barely going Mach 4.5. Any comment?
Slider up.
Feet out.
Head's practically tangled up in the top bridal.
What's your rotten excuse for a head tangled up in? These assholes have managed to use the right BRIDLE ten out off eleven times... And yet that has ZERO effect on you.
Yeah, you look like you're landing.
Who trained him and signed him off?
Let's get you hanging in the simulator the next time you're out.
Has that simulator got a Zack Marzec mode you can tune it to? Even if we couldn't figure out what went wrong and how to respond it would be useful in getting through to Ward just how hopeless his situation would be.
I'm looking at the back of your harness and it's crunched up because you're not being pushed back by having your feet in it... which allows your slider to slide up... which helps you get upright... which is exactly what you don't want.
Yeah? Well what if he needs to land for some reason...
And... look at your harness on the cart... you're upright, slider back with the back of the harness crumpling... because your feet aren't in it.
I'm all for people being "prepared".
Yeah...
The Press - 2006/03/15
The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) is urgently pushing for new hang-gliding industry standards after learning a hang-gliding pilot who suffered serious injuries in a crash three weeks ago had not clipped himself on to the glider.
Extreme Air tandem gliding pilot James (Jim) Rooney safely clipped his passenger into the glider before departing from the Coronet Peak launch site, near Queenstown, CAA sports and recreation manager Rex Kenny said yesterday.
However, he took off without attaching himself.
In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.
Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.
Sure.
So if you off the scale stupid pigfuckers who can't even spell BRIDLE after spending twenty years perfecting aerotowing - let alone have the slightest clue what went wrong when...
Wow...
So you know what happened then?
OMG... thank you for your expert accident analysis. You better fly down to FL and let them know. I'm sure they'll be very thankful to have such a crack expert mind on the case analyzing an accident that you know nothing about. Far better data than the people that were actually there. In short... get fucked.
...one of your professional pilot buddies ate it bigtime then how are you gonna "prepare" people for the realities they face?
In the fifth post of this thread Jim Messina said...
...however sometimes shit happens that can't be explained. A perfect example is the cover of last month's magazine. Ben Dunn, a highly experienced tow pilot, found himself in a compromising position on the initial climb out after launch.
And I haven't heard ONE SYLLABLE's worth of a suggestion from any of you Industry motherfuckers on how to PREPARE for a scenario like that. Oh well, you're probably much too busy pretending to address trivial bullshit like this.
This is a good example of being over prepared.
Yes. He was OVER prepared. You Ridgely guys just did too good a job training and equipping him for aerotowing.
Your slider's up because you're not committed to being in the harness.
Maybe if you fucking douchebags would focus more on preparing him for AEROTOWING and less on preparing him for Rooney Link pops and landing in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place he'd me more committed to being in the harness.
You're hedging your bets in case you're off tow and low and have to land.
- How could he possibly be off tow and low and having to land? Isn't the usual flight plan to tow to twenty-five hundred feet? Surely you've perfected aerotowing to the extent that you can make that happen at least five out of six times.
- If he has to land why does he need to be out of his harness? You tandem assholes have probably had seventy thousand landings by now and never once has anybody been out of a harness or bent a downtube.
You want to be able to get your feet out. So you never really put them in. So they don't push the harness back. So it doesn't pull the slider back.
Once I realized how totally full of shit all you assholes were - and ARE - with your 130 pound Greenspot and started using an actual one and a half G weak link (on MY end anyway) I started launching zipped up in my pod. Seems to me like the Tad-O-Link was increasing the safety of the towing operation - PERIOD - a lot more than your bullshit fishing line was - and IS.
Now, yes, you want to be able to get your feet out... "in case".
In case WHAT? In case his Rooney Link unexpectedly pops and a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place suddenly opens up in front of him? I can name at least two ambulance rides that wouldn't have happened if nobody EVER foot landed at Ridgely. And any foot landing skills you assholes taught to Paul Vernon did NOTHING to prevent his brain from being turned to mush when he picked a wheat field to park in a couple ECCs ago.
But, there is such a thing as too much of a good thing.
Brian,
While I appreciate your quest for the perfect weaklink, didn't we cover this already? (Again?)
Are we to go down the road of debating the quality standards of greenspot again?
Ok, for review, it doesn't matter.
Why?
Because you have nothing else.
Do I have to review why we don't tow handmade gliders?
Listen we're all perfectly aware that greenspot is not laser calibrated to 130lbs. It's bloody fishing line. Get over it. Are you flying below your perfect numbers as a heavy guy. Yes. Yes you are. Get over it.
Why?
Because it's all you've got.
Why lower numbers? Because your choice is lower or higher... and higher is more dangerous than lower.
...for fishing line. The lower you get the more the safety of the towing operation is increased - PERIOD.
Do or do not. There is no try.
Oh thank you so much, unbelievably wise Jedi master.
But like I said... c'mon out and get hanging in the simulator.
It's no wonder to me now why you couldn't stay with the tow... the good news is that we should be able to sort this out pretty easily...
As you were SUPPOSED TO have BEFORE you signed him off?
I mean, if you were able to stay on for even as long as you did with *that* going on!?... then once we get you into position, towing should be a piece of cake for ya.
He's still suffering from the delusions that...
Had another "in the airport" flight at Ridgely this afternoon and was lucky that both Jim Rooney and I experienced only adrenaline surges without incident. I'm certain that it would have been significantly different had Rooney waited any longer to cut me loose.
...your pulse rate ramped up and things could've been problematic for the people on both ends of the string while he was using an Industry Standard...
For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.
...Rooney Link on his three point bridal. Aren't you gonna disabuse him of it?
Ward Odenwald - 2014/05/06 23:01:10 UTC
To everyone that has offered their input, both on and off the forum, THANKS!
Me TOO?! Thank you so VERY MUCH! I can't begin to tell you how much your gratitude means to me!
Your advice and perspectives have helped me, and hopefully others!
I can think of a few people it didn't get too quite in time.
The head high, elbows barely bend position at the start of the tow is a fundamental mistake that may have initiated or certainly exacerbated most or all of the control issues during the tow. Plus, not having my feet in the harness boot interfered or blocked my ability to rotate to a head down position once in the air. After working with Jim, Sunny and Adam to correct the issue(s), I'll post again with solutions.
Properly trimmed bridle? Just kidding.
There's one additional Safety Issue that I didn't consider until after my earlier post.
Properly trimmed bridle?
Given its significance, here it is.
Properly trimmed bridle?
When Jim gave me the rope we were approaching the south end of the runway with no more than two to four hundred feet of altitude.
There is no SOUTH end of the runway at Ridgely.
The tension release on the towline triggered a "gut response" of pulling in to gain airspeed and control.
That's not a "gut response". That's an advanced SKILL...
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2014/03/14
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
11. Hang Gliding Special Skill Endorsements
-D. Aerotow
05. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.
...you can only learn in tandem training with a tandem rated pilot running a simulation initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude, in smooth air. And very few candidates are able to really get it right in under fifteen or twenty repetitions.
Soon after, came the realization that I was flying away from LZ options so I turned back to the center of the airport and its flanking LZ fields. During the 180, I was totally focused...
...on getting back without wasting precious altitude.
As you should've been! And I certainly hope you were wearing your little red rubber USHGA "Focused Pilot" wristband.
This concern combined with the fact that my landing into the wind was most likely not an option consumed most or all of my thoughts.
That's OK. As long as you were maintaining a focus on something...
What I did not consider (or even look for) was the dangerous fact that I was now dragging a rather long rope that was looped over my control bar!
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
...had already fixed everything that was going on back there by giving you the rope.
- If being left with the rope were DANGEROUS would:
-- every Dragonfly operation in the country be violating the fuck out of FAA aerotowing regulations by pulling four strand tandems behind three strand tow mast breakaway protectors?
-- the wonderful folk at Ridgely have been violating the fuck out of FAA aerotowing regulations by pulling T** at K*** S****** with his mid safety range Tad-O-Link with the three strand tow mast breakaway protector?
-- Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner), after six consecutive Rooney Link pops in light morning conditions, tell all the competitors at Zapata...
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).
...to use four stranders behind his three strand tow mast breakaway protectors?
Get fuckin' REAL, dude.
The sensation of the towline tension release, when Jim cut me lose, was identical to that felt when a weak link breaks...
How would you know? Surely you've never been in a situation so dire that your life was dependent upon a Rooney Link pop.
...so my first and only thought...
...was that the separation was due to a snapped weak link. If the towline had snagged on anything during the short flight - Yikes!!
Bullshit. You STILL HAD your Rooney Link on your bridle. You could never have had more than about 250 pounds of towline tension pulling straight back on your basetube. What's the worst that could've happened?
To avoid this nightmare scenario - if you're low and the tug leaves you, PULL THE TOW RELEASE ASAP no matter what you may think triggered the separation!
Bent pin releases are indeed very very reliable. But 100%? Nope. It's exceptionally rare, but they jam. All mechanical things do.
It'll probably just fail. Just wait for your Rooney Link to pop. That's the one thing we have in our system that's one hundred percent guaranteed to break when it's supposed to.
If you get the rope up high, there's time to realize what happened...
I'm having a pretty hard time imagining not realizing that I've just been handed 250 feet of Spectra. But, of course, I fly with a three point bridal so I've never been as high over a Dragonfly as you apparently were.
...and reel it in or release it over the airfield, but down low, it's a huge potential/unthinkable danger if you don't immediately drop it.
Yeah. So maybe NOW you understand a little bit of why...
Tad,
I wonder if you did as much Highland bashing while you were a 'loyal' customer...or you displaying a cowardly nature by bashing after you were told you were no longer welcome there. If you acted there as you do here, perhaps they got tired of being told how to run their operation.
Just a guess but probably the trigger that got you booted is when you went to the FAA with your draft proposal for more regulation of the sport...yeah, that was a great idea on your part!
With your very high numbers on the ignore report, I'm surprised you haven't been booted from here like you have been from some Yahoo groups.
...I got tired of the way those Ridgely motherfuckers were flagrantly and callously violating USHGA and FAA regulations and endangering the fuck out of my life with every tow I ever took there.
Hi Ward, glad you are ok and thanks for sharing this near event.
Any interest in any of the people involved in this sewer - Keavy Nenninger, Zack Marzec, Mark Knight - who are NOT OK?
Jim Rooney has some excellent comments.
Goes without saying - asshole. He's always got excellent comments when his rigged systems have gotten him shielded from the half dozen people in the sport who know what's going on.
I remember looking at your pics from previous flights on this harness glider combo and thought I commented back then that you were too high above the bar (maybe I commented to someone offline).
I recall teaching everyone who ever came to Kitty Hawk for a bunny hill hop how the check clearance. How many years did it take you to develop and refine that expertise?
Anyway, looking at all of your photos from previous flights, you are head high and too far above the bar. I tow with one leg out of the harness until I feel good in the air.
Anybody who flies with the kind of crap you do behind a Dragonfly tow mast breakaway protector and the assholes they have strapped into them and feels good being in the air is a total moron.
Even in that attitude which is head up, my chest is still close to the bar. I'm convinced that 1) you are too high above the bar and 2) you may need to adjust your pitch on the harness to make it natural to be rotated down (versus in landing mode). Once you make the harness adjustment, you may find it uncomfortable at first, however, once used to flying in this attitude, you will find the glider is easier to fly both on and off tow. Can't wait to hear your feedback once you've made the changes.
How do those issues rank in relative to the bridle trim point?
Dan Tomlinson - 2014/05/07 15:50:53 UTC
Ward,
You've gotten a lot of great advice on the tow issues especially from Jim Rooney and Larry Bunner among others. I am sure that with their assistance you will get this worked out.
You rot in hell, Dan. And take your Rooney buddy at least with you.
I did notice that you also realized that there could have been an issue with the tow rope. I think I can add something constructive here.
Tie one around your fuckin' neck and suspend yourself from a tree with it?
Once the rope is no longer attached to the tug there isn't necessarily enough force on it to detach it from the hook on your release.
Why the fuck...
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2013/01/23
12. Standard Operating Procedure
10. Towing/Aerotowing Administration
09. Aerotow Pilot Appointment (ATP)
-B. Aerotow Equipment Guidelines
05. A release must be placed at the hang glider end of the tow line within easy reach of the pilot. This release shall be operational with zero tow line force up to twice the rated breaking strength of the weak link.
...not? This release SHALL be operational with zero tow line force but it's just a GUIDELINE so fuck it?
You can hit the release and it might still be attached.
But it wasn't designed by the assholes whose dicks your so addicted to sucking.
It's important to confirm that it's clear of your wing.
Yeah Dan, you make sure these guys listen to you, Cragin, Rooney and get things right.
Ward Odenwald - 2014/05/10 13:48:14 UTC
Yesterday, started with a series of focused/tough questions on what went wrong last Saturday and ended with the realization that Highland had just helped me become a better/safer pilot.
Bummer they never bothered BEFORE your clusterfuck. Even more of a bummer they didn't teach Keavy how not to make rookie mistakes before they checked her off for the Dragonfly.
From the morning simulator practice that highlighted both the obvious and more subtle issues to the last tow, where at ~1,500 feet Jim started a slow dance with the tug that quickly ramped up to a series of rapidly reversing sharp turns to determine just how much I had really learned. The day ended with Adam and Jim helping me understand the aerodynamics of what went wrong on the last turn...
Did they help you to understand:
- the aerodynamics of what went wrong on the last tow Zack Marzec ever took when he was pro toad into a monster thermal and his Rooney Link popped when he was standing on his tail?
- how:
-- they determined that a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot:
--- blew at 260 pounds?
--- would blow before the pressure of the towline would reach a level that compromised the handling of a glider?
--- was the:
---- upper limit of the stress to which it was advisable to subject a glider?
---- ideal weak link for all solo gliders?
-- a Rooney Link could prevent a glider from achieving a dangerously high angle of attack?
...and how I could have stayed longer on tow for perhaps one more "insane, holy shit" attempt to stay behind Jim.
ANY attempt to tow up behind any motherfucker who would make a statement like:
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
...is certifiably insane. Ditto for the assholes who trained him and signed him off. A REAL pilot would NEVER have anything to do with any of those off the scale stupid dickheads.
I highly recommend taking one of these tows to test just how good your technique is.
Great. Fuck you.
Plus, the excitement of staying on tow during one of Jim's turns coupled with the fact that the next one is going to be even more intense is an awesome experience!
So's a double tumble from a hundred and fifty feet that ends like THIS:
1. Start the tow with my chest close to the control bar, arms relaxed/not rigid and elbows below the control bar.
2. During the tow, with both feet in the harness, I found that I had to make multiple small harness adjustments to keep my chest down. I realized that I prefer watching the tug with my head up and that was most likely enhancing the chest up trend.
3. When I first realized that I was drifting away from center I would initiate a correction that was proportional to how quickly I was moving off target and the correction was held only until my glider started to respond. Most of the corrections were accomplished with small/brief inputs.
4. Both Jim and Adam emphasized that a turn or lateral correction should be accomplished by keeping your head/chest centered on the control bar and rotating your hips and legs in the direction that you want to go (the push/pull or shopping cart turn). By keeping my chest centered during the correction and applying just enough input to get the glider to respond, I found that pilot induced oscillation was no longer an issue.
Here's what DIDN'T help:
Continuing to tow off the carabiner instead of the proper point on the keel.
Note: The higher the top tow point the better. If the glider is equipped with a DHV (longer than Wills Wing standard length by 8 inches) it is better to tie the release to the keel rather than attach it to the hang loop.
It is NEVER a good idea to drop down below the keel on ANY GLIDER. And from you MIGHT infer that going down as far as possible - to your harness tow loops and nothing else - is THE WORST...
...POSSIBLE thing you can do. But you guys just have fun continuing to do it, referring to it as "pro tow", and pretending that it's something that can be taught and learned to do safely. I totally LIVE for reports of hang gliding people being killed in freak towing accidents.
All of these adjustments/improvements are fundamental to proper towing technique that, for unclear reasons, I drifted from.
You never had anything that mattered right TO BEGIN WITH. Read The Fucking Manual. And see if you can get the dickheads running your friendly neighborhood Wills Wing dealership over there to Read The Fucking Manual as well.
Bottom line, sloppy technique can result in unintended consequences!
At Ridgely you can have ZERO confidence in:
- being able to stay on tow
- not being left with the towline if you're blown off tow
- being able to safely get off tow using ANY of the crap they pass off as equipment
You don't have a snowball's chance in hell of EVER understanding - let alone practicing - the fundamentals of proper towing. All you're ever gonna be doing is getting away with stupid shit - and I wish you ZERO *LUCK* in doing so. I wish you the PRECISE and EXTREME OPPOSITE of luck.
Zack Marzec takes his girlfriend up with her helmet unbuckled and you assholes have a total shit fit. Zack Marzec goes up with a pro toad bridle and a Rooney Link and winds up dead and none of you assholes have any interest whatsoever in discussions and fixes. Go fuck yourselves.
It was a good day at Ridgely. The morning forecasts were accurate and by 12:30 the clouds looked great.
Jim Rooney towed me up at 1:15 and shortly after leaving the air park Jim entered a thermal that left me struggling to climb at his rate but that quickly reversed when he exited the thermal. As I watched Jim sink out, I was now trying to dive down to his level while listening to my vario scream. The weak link snapped within seconds leaving me with two options: return to the field and try again or search for the thermal that triggered the break.
As I turned back to the field, I saw John Middleton circling close to where I lost Jim. Without John's help, I would have most likely been on the ground in minutes.
After the first climb that took me above 4 K MSL just south of the field, I headed south passing just east of Denton. Flying fast through the down air and slowing up for zero sink, I was able to find three additional thermals that each took me above 3K MSL.
After leaving the last thermal near Federalsburg, I flew into a large area of down air that drove me down to an altitude that triggered my mental alarm of "find an LZ NOW" so I picked out a recently harvested field next to Route 404.
I got back to Ridgely just in time to watch Jim Messina make a textbook no wind landing flying his Litespeed. It was one of the softest returns to earth that I've witnessed.
In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.
He's an excellent tug pilot and made sure you had a "park provided" weak link (I think they are 130 pound Greenspot) and not something a lot higher than most folk care for.
...I was now trying to dive down to his level while listening to my vario scream. The weak link snapped within seconds leaving me with two options: return to the field and try again or search for the thermal that triggered the break.
WOW! That's a lot like what one of Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's good friends and tandem aerotow instructor colleagues was doing on his last flight at Quest (or anywhere else) a week shy of six months before YOUR flight. Differences:
- You had a one and a half point bridle, a half point more than he had.
- Zack was rated Four, a notch higher than you, and a professional pilot - which meant:
-- he was qualified to use a pro toad bridal
-- Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney would've been amazed if you'd argued with him about anything
- His thermal was a lot wider and the Dragonfly was still going up when his Rooney Link increased the safety of the towing operation
- You had:
-- plenty enough altitude to get a parachute out if you'd needed to
-- at least twice as many options as he did and ALL of yours were WAY the fuck better than ANY of his
As I turned back to the field, I saw John Middleton...
Second photo - upper left corner.
...circling close to where I lost Jim.
- Did YOU lose Jim? Or was it your 130 Greenspot Pilot In Command that the Ridgely douchebags sent you up with that lost Jim?
- Was your glider close to getting overstressed when your Pilot In Command lost Jim?
- Glider, tug, both out of control or danger of being put out of control?
- If that situation called for a termination of the tow how come neither of you human assholes effected or were gearing to effect it?
Without John's help, I would have most likely been on the ground in minutes.
So?
- It would've just been an inconvenience for you, whatever tug would've taken you up next, the cart monkey, the launch assistant, and everybody behind the point at which you'd have cut in line.
- There's never any risk associated with a landing or aerotow launch so your chances of leaving the field in an ambulance or body bag wouldn't double - as a non pilot asshole might assume.
- The cost of the relaunch would be subsidized by everyone who gets pulled up there.
- Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney would get to do more of the kind of flying - powered light sport - that's HIS primary choice.
- You could've gotten a new identical 130 pound Greenspot Pilot In Command, gone back up into identical air behind the same or an identical tug and hoped for better results. Nothing like the insanity of...
You had a thing and it broke needlessly.
You didn't want the thing to break needlessly.
You replaced the thing with a stronger thing.
Now the thing doesn't break needlessly.
...replacing a thing that broke needlessly with a thing that wouldn't break needlessly.
...I picked out a recently harvested field next to Route 404.
What? You couldn't find a field that HADN'T been harvested so's you could test your...
...standup landing skills? (Paul Vernon back flying yet? Haven't heard much about him since shortly after his little bonk a couple seasons ago.)
I got back to Ridgely just in time to watch Jim Messina make a textbook no wind landing flying his Lite speed. It was one of the softest returns to earth that I've witnessed.
January's canonization of Rooney as the Patron Saint of Landing was maddening. He offered just what people wanted to hear: there is an ultimate, definitive answer to your landing problems, presented with absolute authority. Judgment problems? His answer is to remove judgment from the process - doggedly stripping out critical differences in gliders, loading, pilot, and conditions. This was just what people wanted - to be told a simple answer. In thanks, they deified him, carving his every utterance in Wiki-stone.
...Patron Saint of Landing. Go figure.
So what percentage of the:
- hard landings you witness at Ridgely are wheel landings?
- foot landings you witness at Ridgely are necessary?
If you're seeing nothing but unnecessary foot landings at Ridgely and tons of them are hard - or worse - then how much good is all that practice for landing in unharvested wheat fields and narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place doing?
Is that not a bridle link on the left side of the photo? If it is then what's the point of having a weak link between the primary bridle end and thimble?
