Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Gordon Rigg - 2014/08/20 13:40:25 UTC
UK

The hang glider has a release.

Is the release certified...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8331326948/


...to handle load? Are there any totally fuckin' obvious ways...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318769461/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318781297/

...for it to hang up and kill somebody - again?

The tug has a release.

Yeah...

Bill Bryden - 1999/06

Rob Richardson, a dedicated instructor, died in an aerotowing accident at his flight park in Arizona. He was conducting an instructional tandem aerotow flight and was in the process of launching from a ground launch vehicle when the accident occurred.

Rob had started to launch once but a premature towline release terminated this effort after only a few meters into the launch roll-out. It is suspected the cart was rolled backwards a bit and the towline was reattached to begin the launch process again. During the tug's roll-out for the second launch attempt, the tug pilot observed the glider clear the runway dust and then begin a left bank with no immediate correction. At that point he noticed that the launch cart was hanging below the glider and immediately released his end of the 240 ft. towline. The tug never left the ground and tug pilot watched the glider continue a hard bank to the left achieving an altitude of approximately 25 feet. Impact was on the left wing and then the nose of the glider. Rob was killed immediately from severe neck and head trauma.

We know. He can fix whatever's going on back there by giving us the rope.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7509/15659143120_a9aae8f7bd_o.jpg

There is a weak link at the glider end that means the tow rope cannot pull enough to break the glider.

- Boy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


...does it.

- So is there anything the weak link at the glider needs to be...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...STRONG enough to prevent happening? Or is it just the case that the weaker it is the less risk of breaking the glider and thus the safer you are?

There is a weak link at the tug end that means the tow rope cannot possibly break the tug (for example if the rope catches when its landing).

Really?

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

I witnessed a tug pilot descend low over trees. His towline hit the trees and caught. His weak link broke but the bridle whipped around the towline and held it fast. The pilot was saved by the fact that the towline broke!

Are you absolutely sure about that?

With repeated uses a string weak link will get weaker until it breaks a quite a low load. So if yours has lasted 100 tows it probably started stronger than it needs to be.

- How strong does it NEED to be, motherfucker? I seem to have missed the part where anybody defined a need for STRENGTH and gave us some kind of number we could use. Or are you just fine with the universal Davis Link that breaks six times in a row in light morning conditions by coincidence?

- Tost recommends replacing inserts after two hundred launches. T** at K*** S****** advises that his Tad-O-Links never need to be replaced. If a string weak link degrades that fast is it really such a great weak link?

Many people tow with very strong weak links.

Well yeah, but most of them are either dead, in the hospital, or permanently scared out of hang gliding.

this might let you save a tow that gets further out of line vertically or horizontally...

And perish the thought that the human under the glider should be able to supersede the decision of a mandated loop of fishing line.

...however I personally believe it best to use a weaker link and have it break sometimes when I'd rather it didn't.

And I'm absolutely positive that if the late Zack Marzec were able to speak to us from beyond the grave he'd totally agree with you. He was getting out of line vertically but he was using fishing line with a longer track record than he'd have been able accrue in the course of ten thousand 27 year lifespans working on trying to save a bad thing 'cause he didn't wanna start over and it sometime broke when he'd rather it didn't. Just imagine how much worse the stall would've been if he'd been able to stay on an extra two or three seconds.

I also believe, after many winch tows, hundreds of car static line car tows and many hundreds of aerotows, that you should always be able to keep the glider at an attitude where you can successfully land after a weak link break.

Fuck your fifteen hundred tows of various flavors and your PERSONAL BELIEFS based upon them. Only total fucking morons base their threat assessments and decisions on their piddling personal experiences. "Well, I've been making the drives between home and work for three years and have never come remotely close to having a need for a seat belt or airbag. Thus it's a no brainer that these devices are totally useless."

If you winch/car tow too steep then you could be relying on the pull to get you through a situation where you are too steep to recover.

So that's obviously what Zack Marzec was doing. So that would be ENTIRELY a consequence of what Mark Frutiger was doing. So how come we haven't heard a single hint of criticism of what Mark Frutiger was doing?

You might get higher quicker but its not worth the risk.

- Is there any possible way Mother Nature can throw anything into the equation that totally fucks up your glassy smooth evening air model and assumptions?

- And getting HIGHER QUICKER?! The very IDEA scares the crap out of me. I so do love nice slow climbs through the kill zone when there are likely to be thermals breaking off.

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble

Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.

Two or three times per successful tow if necessary.

Sooner or later something will break right when your are too steep too close to the ground - car/winch/rope/release if not the weak link.

- Totally fuckin' inevitable. This WILL happen sooner or later. No question about it.

- So answer me this, douchebag...

Sailplanes use manufacturer specified weak links proportionally around twice the strength of mandated hang glider Davis Links. Their weak links NEVER break and, strangely, this bullshit you're predicting NEVER happens.

- Ya know what a WEAK LINK is, asshole? A WEAK LINK is a LINK that breaks before anything else in the system. If something else breaks before YOUR WEAK LINK then YOUR WEAK LINK wasn't a WEAK LINK.

The way out of most dangerous tow situations is to release before it gets too bad...

And chopping several hundred pounds of thrust totally, instantly, and irrevocably in most dangerous tow situations is...

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...



Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

...a really great way to kill yourself.

The easier your release system is to operate the better.

Well duh. Why do you think that here in the US we have a mandate that all releases be mounted within easy reach?


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg

01-001

04-200

07-300

10-307

15-413


Idiot.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Davis Straub - 2014/08/20 13:47:27 UTC

michael170 - 2014/08/20 07:06:28 UTC

Davis Straub - 2014/08/19 13:58:35 UTC

The point of the weaklink is to make aerotowing safer for the pilots.

How's that been working out so far?

Thankfully, quite well.

For which pilots?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18777
Accident - Broken Jaw - Full Face HG Helmet

Keith Skiles - 2010/08/28 05:20:01 UTC

Last year, at LMFP I saw an incident in aerotow that resulted in a very significant impact with the ground on the chest and face. Resulted in a jaw broken in several places and IIRC some tears in the shoulder.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545
Cart stuck incidents

Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC

I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.

09-1116
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8203/29011379445_8956477e20_o.png


If it's working out so great for the pilots then how come...

http://ozreport.com/rules.php
2014 Big Spring Nationals Rules

2014 Big Spring Nationals at Big Spring, Texas

2.0 EQUIPMENT

Weaklinks

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

...you're now well into your second decade of punishing comp pilots who aren't in line with your concept of the ideal appropriate weak link? Do you need to similarly punish your comp pilots for using undersized parachutes at your pecker measuring contests?

Do the tug pilots not have releases that can be used in emergency situations?

They also have a stronger weaklink at their end of the rope.

Stronger than what?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3648
Oh no! more on weak links

Carlos Weill - 2008/11/30 19:24:09 UTC

On June of 2008 during a fast tow, I noticed I was getting out of alignment, but I was able to come back to it. The second time it happen I saw the tug line 45 deg off to the left and was not able to align the glider again I tried to release but my body was off centered and could not reach the release. I kept trying and was close to 90 deg. All these happen very quickly, as anyone that has experienced a lock out would tell you. I heard a snap, and then just like the sound of a WWII plane just shut down hurdling to the ground, only the ball of fire was missing. The tug weak link broke off at 1000ft, in less than a second the glider was at 500ft.

Apparently nothing reliably stronger than a Davis Link.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

The lockout Lauren mentioned was precipitated by my attempt to pull on more VG while on tow. I have done this before but this time the line wouldn't cleat properly and while I was fighting it, I got clobbered and rolled hard right in a split second. There was a very large noise and jerk as the relatively heavy weak link at the tug broke giving me the rope. I recovered quickly from the wingover and flew back to the field to drop the line and then relaunched after changing to a normal weak link.

Not stronger than a 1.4 G solo Tad-O-Link dead center in the middle of the legal range.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 18:54:27 UTC

I'm confused. I never said the tug's ass was endangered. That's why we use 3strand at the tug's end. Using 4 strand can rip things off (it's happened).

http://ozreport.com/9.032
The Worlds - weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2005/02/07

For a couple of years I have flown with a doubled weaklink because, flying with a rigid wing glider, I have found that there is little reason to expect trouble on tow, except from a weaklink break.

Not stronger than your Atos weak link.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink.

Not stronger than the two hundred pound weak link Morningside decided they were happy with.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Lauren Tjaden - 2011/08/01 02:01:06 UTC

Also, a tandem weak link is doubled, due to the much greater tow forces on it due to its much greater weight. Technically the tow plane's weak link will break sooner than the tandem's will. Of course what happens in reality is not exactly what happens in principle -- though it WAS what happened in this case.

Not stronger than ANY tandem weak link and ALL tandem weak links are south of min legal.

There has been plenty of discussion of weaklinks here previously.

We're aware of that. There's also been tons of discussion there generated by global warming deniers. What's your fuckin' point?

I suggest reading Jim Rooney's posts.

Why? We totally destroyed any pretenses of competence and character he was attempting to maintain right after his idiot friend got splattered by his Bobby Link a bit over a year and a half ago. Can't you just point us to some of the pearls of wisdom...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Deltaman - 2013/02/16 22:41:36 UTC

How is that possible to write so much ..and say NOTHING !?

...that sprang forth from his internationally famous keen intellect? What does he know that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 06:15:12 UTC

You may not know, but Davis is a friend of mine.
We have discussed this many times in person. We are not in disagreement.

If you can not see that we're in agreement, perhaps I can clear things up for you. Or Davis can.
Either way, you're the one creating the drama.

...you don't? What can he explain that's too cerebral for you...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25015
Zippy pounds in

Davis Straub - 2011/09/02 18:37:09 UTC

Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.

...to fully comprehend? Is it just that neither one of you has the slightest fuckin' clue what he's talking about so you take turns running behind each other's skirts? If Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney is the ranking world authority on aerotow weak links then how come you're writing comp policy...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.

...and he's not?

If someone who's been...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/15 06:48:18 UTC

Davis has been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.

...at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who can't even comprehend the complexities and subtleties of aerotowing weak links as explained by Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/13 19:09:33 UTC

It was already worked out by the time I arrived.

...then what possible chances could any of us weekend warrior muppets have?

Jack and Davis Show douchebags have ALWAYS been...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

...focusing carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say, particularly Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. If they haven't gotten anything by now what's the point in asking them to keep doing the same thing and expecting better results? Seems to me that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/18 14:32:01 UTC

Overall this actually makes some sense...

...they're starting to have better success listening to people from Tad's Hole In The Ground. Ya think that's maybe in part 'cause they don't dodge questions, lateral to somebody else when the heat's turned up, are totally consistent in their responses which are totally consistent with reality?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC

Davis,

Your weak link comments are dead on. I have been reading the weak link discussion in the Oz Report with quiet amusement. Quiet, because weak links seem to be one of those hot button issues that brings out the argumentative nature of HG pilots and also invokes the "not designed here" mentality and I really did not want to get drawn into a debate. Amusement, because I find it odd that there was so much ink devoted to reinventing the wheel. Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition. Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/13 19:09:33 UTC

It was already worked out by the time I arrived.
The reason it sticks?
Trail and error.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 01:32:20 UTC

Btw, it's nothing to do with you "counting" on the weaklink breaking... Its about me not trusting you to hit the release.
If it were only about what you want, then you could use what you like.
You want the strongest weaklink you can have.
I want you to have the weakest one practical.. I don't care how much it inconveniences you.
I don't trust you as a rule. You Trust you , but I don't and shouldn't.

It's totally fucking obvious that it was we weekend warrior muppets were the guinea pigs for trail and error process zeroed in on 130 pound Greenspot as the ideal one-size-fits-all solo weak link before Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney arrived. The best of the best fly stronglinks which they never break and thus they're, in effect, flying without weak links. WE're the ones who:
- don't:
-- appreciate and can't stay inside of the Cone of Safety
-- understand the exponential nature of lockouts
- insist on doing Mach 5 takeoffs behind 914 Dragonflies
- think we can fix bad things and don't wanna start over
- fly with home made gear in midday conditions
- just freeze

So how come it's not we muppets who best understand the safety enhancements of the standard aerotow weak link better than anyone else? Aren't really crappy drivers much more appreciative of and knowledgeable about seatbelts, airbags, fire extinguishers, medevac choppers, shock trauma facilities than highly skilled and successful ones?

You're fuckin' TOAST, Davis. You've spent over a dozen years lying your way into a corner so deep and dark that any glimmer you might be able to detect is too faint to be worth mentioning. We fuckin' destroyed Rooney before you locked all the threads so we couldn't finish you off but now we're gonna do to you what we did to him. And it doesn't matter what you do or don't say. Any move you make or don't make will result in you being engulfed by flames. I just hope you keep drawing things out so we can make your demise as agonizing as possible for you and thus as enjoyable as possible for scores of other people - including a lot of people I don't even like very much.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Davis Straub - 2014/08/20 13:54:00 UTC

You are not going to break your glider or the tug.

Yeah, we know that. We went and read Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, just like you said, and he told us:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 06:40:02 UTC

Your glider will tear the rope apart before it breaks.
It will tear the topmast off the tug before it breaks.
Your glider is capable of amazing feats of strength... it is in no danger of folding up on you.

So we're now pretty confident that we're not gonna break our gliders. And I don't really give a flying fuck what happens to the tug - seeing as how, given that they've recently killed two people on Dragonflies and keep putting them up while making no efforts whatsoever to find and fix the problems, neither do they. So thanks, that was a good lead.

The weaklink is there to protect you and the tug pilot.

Well, I ALSO read:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

so I'm having a hard time understanding why the tug NEEDS protection. Hundred percent reliable tug pilots and releases. If you live in Albuquerque how close to you have to stay to a shark cage just to make sure?

And earlier you said:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Davis Straub - 2014/08/19 13:58:35 UTC

You also want the weak link to break if you, the hang glider pilot, get out of whack and put excessive force on the tow plane (to save the tug pilot).

So how come now it's also there to protect ME?

And WHAT'S IT SUPPOSED TO BE PROTECTING ME FROM and WHAT SHOULD I BE OPTIMALLY USING - POUNDS OR Gs - TO ACHIEVE THAT PROTECTION?

The only two things that scare me shitless on aerotow are stalls and lockouts 'cause I know from reading lotsa fatality reports that they can both overwhelm any control efforts of which any pilot is capable of effecting. So please tell me what weak link will work best to keep me safe from these phenomena and how to best tie them onto and end of my shoulder bridle.

On 2004/06/26 at Hang Glide Chicago Mike Haas was using a Davis Link to protect himself, his glider, the tug pilot and the tug. Neither the tug pilot nor his tug were in the SLIGHTEST danger at any time and Mike and his glider ended up totaled within a couple of seconds of the Davis Link kicking in. How come it didn't work? Do we still have the blown Davis Link to analyze and determine what the failure issue was? OP has a scanning electron microscope he's volunteered for such efforts.

How 'bout we do this experiment, Davis? One group of a hundred pilots with Davis Links, another with four leafed clovers and nothing in the system that blows under a thousand pounds. Fly them for a season. I'll bet anything you wanna name that the clover guys are gonna come out WAY ahead.

And you still haven't answered my question about why the Davis Link did absolutely nothing to protect either of these tugs:

http://ozreport.com/forum/files/2_264.jpg

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Brian Scharp - 2014/08/20 15:56:14 UTC

Gordon Rigg - 2014/08/20 13:40:25 UTC

Many people tow with very strong weak links. this might let you save a tow that gets further out of line vertically or horizontally, however I personally believe it best to use a weaker link and have it break sometimes when I'd rather it didn't.

I understand flying in such a way as to anticipate unexpectedly losing thrust...

So do the Towing and Safety and Training Committees:

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2014/03/14
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
11. Hang Gliding Special Skill Endorsements
-A. Special Skills attainable by Novice
-D. Aerotow

05. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.

...but what's the advantage of having it more likely to happen when you don't want it to?

Who the fuck are you to question the decision of a piece of fishing line with a track record of, quite literally, hundreds of thousands of tows?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Davis Straub - 2014/08/20 19:48:26 UTC

Many of us are now using 200 lb test line from Cortland.

Oh!

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 16:45:39 UTC

I am more than happy to have a stronger weaklink and often fly with the string used for weaklinks used at Wallaby Ranch for tandem flights (orange string - 200 lbs). We used these with Russell Brown's (tug owner and pilot) approval at Zapata after we kept breaking weaklink in light conditions in morning flights.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Davis Straub - 2013/02/13 15:45:22 UTC

We have no agreement that a stronger weaklink would make it safer (again, I fly with a slightly stronger weaklink).

Slightly stronger than the 130...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

For many years a number of us (US pilots) have felt that #8 bricklayers nylon line was not an appropriate material to use for weaklinks as it is not as consistent in its breaking strength (as far as we are concerned) as the Greenspot line used in the US. At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.

...you've been forcing thousands of flights up on for over a half dozen years. So...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Davis Straub - 2011/07/30 19:51:54 UTC

I'm very happy with the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now.

...are you slightly happier with this slightly stronger weak link? Do we need a new adverb? What do you call slightly happier than very happy?

So you would no longer agree...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15716
weak links

Davis Straub - 2009/04/26 22:05:31 UTC

Tad obviously completely lacks social intelligence and probably a few other forms of intelligence. Also, he obviously has other mental health issues.

Also his reasoning is circular and when cornered breaks out in outrageous jumps, pulling dead rabbits from flatten hats.

But on the reasonable level I think that we can all agree that weaklinks should be as strong as possible without compromising their function which is to keep the hang glider from being broken by tow forces (and therefore hurting the pilot).

Tad doesn't agree, but the rest of us no doubt do, that we are in a partnership with the tug pilot, and that he needs to be protected also, and therefore our weaklink has to be less than his.

I'll check my weaklinks once again, to see if they are about 1.5 G.

...that we are in a partnership with the tug pilot, and that he needs to be protected also, and therefore our weaklink has to be less than his? How come, Davis? Did your social intelligence and probably a few other forms of intelligence take some dips? Did you develop some other mental health issues? Think it was all those concussions? Genetic defects? Inbreeding? Combos?

I guess you're no longer worried about...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2808
Weaklink Break

Davis Straub - 2006/06/17 12:43:23 UTC



When you have something like this happen to you, the first thing you want to avoid is it happening again, no matter what the actual or proximate cause. Avoiding that tug for a while seemed prudent.

I wonder who was responsible for the tow line coming undone.

...being left with the towline under any circumstances - including a lot of less than ideal ones. And fuck FAA aerotowing regulations which mandate heavier front end weak links.

So who's "MANY of US"? The best of the best? The rock stars who've been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who?


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


http://ozreport.com/rules.php
2014 Big Spring Nationals Rules

2014 Big Spring Nationals at Big Spring, Texas

2.0 EQUIPMENT

Weaklinks

Pilots will be shown how to tie the weaklink so that it more likely breaks at its rating breaking strength.

How are you tying it?

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

Russell Brown, a founder of Quest Air in Florida and a well-known Dragonfly tug pilot, is also a sailplane pilot, tug pilot, and A&P mechanic for a large commercial sailplane towing operation in Florida. He told us that, like us, he has never seen a sailplane weak link break, either. Russell owned the first 914-powered Dragonfly ever made--he helped us build the second one, which we still fly. He is the one who, many years ago, showed us the method for making a WT weak link and suggested we use polypropylene rather than Spectra for hang glider V-bridles.

The way Russell does to position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation? Towline tension good to eight hundred pounds?

Previously used at Wallaby Ranch for tandem towing.

WHOA! DUDE!!

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

If tandem operators think that, practically, a 520 lb. double loop weak link is too much for a tandem, it is way too much for a solo pilot.

What do tandem operators "think" about that? How many tandem operators do you need to think something to make it way unacceptable for a solo pilot? I'm pretty sure that if you find one of them thinking something...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

But you see... I'm the guy you've got to convince.
(or whoever your tug pilot may be... but we all tend to have a similar opinion about this)

...it's pretty much a no brainer that they all are thinking the same thing.

We previously used 140 lb test Greenspot from Cortland.

No you didn't, motherfucker. There isn't and never has been 140 from Cortland. You used...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/09 12:32:57 UTC

one strand is 130 lb, two strands, (one loop), is more.

...130.

http://www.fishusa.com/product/Cortland-Dacron-Planer-Board-Line?utm_source=bing_ps&utm_medium=search&utm_campaign=bing_ps
http://www.cortlandline.com/sport-fishing/all-water/braided-line/dacron-trolling-line-igfa

There's no 140 listed in your links.

So can you tell us what - after quite literally, hundreds of thousands of tows worth of trail and error to ping in on 130 as the perfect solo aerotow weak link, the...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.
The law of the land at comps was 130lb greenspot or you don't tow. Seriously. It was announced before the comp that this would be the policy. Some guys went and made their case to the safety committee and were shut down. So yeah, sorry... suck it up.

...law of the land, the deal breaker that dwarfs damn near all other aerotowing considerations to the point of virtual nonexistence - it was that motivated "many of us" to go to that slightly stronger weak link? Did you wanna be a test pilot or sumpin'? Ya know, your good friend, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/13 19:09:33 UTC

Every now and then someone comes along with the "new" idea of a stronger weaklink. Eventually, they scare themselves with it and wind up back with one that has a very proven track record. I mean really... no exaggeration... hundreds of thousands of tows.

Say what you will, but if you want to argue with *that* much history, well, you better have one hell of an argument... which you don't.

It amuses me how many people want to be test pilots.
It amuses me even more that people...
A) Don't realize that "test pilot" is exactly what they're signing up for and B) actually testing something is a far more involved process than "I think I just try out my theory and see what happens".

Allow me to repeat... hundreds of thousands of tows.
Sure, there's other stuff out there too. Some of it even has a number of tows behind it... but hundreds of thousands is a very large number.

That's not "religion" my friend.
The shit works. It works in reality and it works consistently. It's not perfect, but Joe-Blow's pet theories have a very high bar to reach before they are given credence.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots.

...doesn't like people reinventing the wheel and doesn't like test pilots. Are you sure you can handle the contempt he'll have for you now?

Your Ponzi scheme is collapsing bigtime, Davis. The only thing that's been keeping it afloat for over two decades is the unfathomable stupidity of hang gliding culture. But even these dregs have their limits.

When Trisa published his article near twenty-seven months ago it was hugely important that 130 pound Greenspot was good to less than a pound plus or minus. But now you just decide you're gonna crank it up sixty pounds, fifty-four percent, for absolutely no hint of a stated reason. I don't think you could even dream of getting away with shit like that in a classroom of rather slow seven year old Sunday school kids.

I REALLY hate your fuckin' cowardly guts and every time you utter a single sentence on anything I'm gonna quote fifteen paragraphs of contradictions. History will NOT remember you kindly.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Davis Straub - 2014/08/19 13:58:35 UTC

The point of the weaklink is to make aerotowing safer for the pilots.

michael170 - 2014/08/20 06:24:46 UTC

How's that been working out so far?

Davis Straub - 2014/08/20 13:47:27 UTC

Thankfully, quite well.

michael170 - 2014/08/21 03:48:39 UTC

Davis Straub
Mitch Shipley (T2C 144) crashed at launch after a weak link break. He tried to stretch out the downwind leg and then drug a tip turning it around and took out his keel (at least).
-
Mike Van Kuiken
The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.
-
Mike Van Kuiken
As far as I know there were 3 witnesses, myself and 2 others, which all say the same thing. Jeremiah behind the controls from the start. They take off, get low on the tug weeklink breaks from the tow plane, one wing stalls out, glider rotates to an almost straight down attitude, picks up speed and impacts.
-
Keith Skiles
I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.
-
Keith Skiles
Last year, at LMFP I saw an incident in aerotow that resulted in a very significant impact with the ground on the chest and face. Resulted in a jaw broken in several places and IIRC some tears in the shoulder.
-
Davis Straub
Tom Lanning had four launches, and two broken weaklinks and a broken base tube. He made it just outside the start circle.
-
Tom Lanning
However, the meet directors are forcing us to use their weak links. They are rated about half the strength of what I currently use. (Wallaby/Quest style links.) That makes me a little nervous since a weak link break close to the ground can hurt.
-
Davis Straub
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.
-
Nic Welbourn
I friend of mine got bumped off tow low going through a thermal, he tried to hook that thermal but ended up landing on his face and breaking his neck.
The thermal ended up causing a weak link break of course.
-
Lauren Tjaden
This fall at Ridgely, I had a weak link break at maybe fifty feet. I thought I was going to have to land in the soybeans - the very tall soybeans - when I looked at my angle. But, my glider stalled quite dramatically almost instantly (hard not to stall when you have a break), and dove towards the ground (a bit disconcerting from so low).
-
Socrates Zayas
The cycle was nice, nothing out of the ordinary, but just as the tug flew over the fence line of the orchard the weak link broke. It was as if it didn't even break - Eric and I both thought it was a release malfunction. But Axo, Ralph, and I found the release and confirmed otherwise.
I was flying nice with good speed and climbing. I thought "Shit. It broke again. Damn, I don't want to land between those trees, they don't even have the keys to the gate anymore." So I turned to the right cross wind toward the RVs and campfire spot. Unfortunately just to the right of those things are 75-100 foot trees and I was just not anticipating the rotor.
-
BJ Herring-
Weak links were going like hotcakes so we doubled them up. On my Atos, I had my only break right as one hand let go of the cart so I held on like crazy to the other side and skidded to a stop.
-
Mark Frutiger
Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke. I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again. I did not see the entry to the tumble, but I did see two revolutions of a forward tumble before kicking the tug around to land.
-
USHPA - Safety Articles
Upon the breakage of the weak link, the glider whip stalled and then tumbled twice.

What color is the sky in your world, Davis?

Whatever...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15716
weak links

Davis Straub - 2009/04/26 22:15:56 UTC

Yup, at least 175 pounds- single loop of Cortland Greenspot 130 pounds test.

That was one end of the loop in a barrel release where the edges are a bit sharper than where I normally connect the weaklink loop with cloth loops at both ends.

I was jumping a bit so it is more than 175 pounds. Maybe 200+.

...he feels like it's most convenient for him to call it at any given moment.

Davis Straub - 2014/08/21 03:52:40 UTC

Davis Straub
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

See above.

You mean?:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Davis Straub - 2014/08/19 13:58:35 UTC

The point of the weaklink is to make aerotowing safer for the pilots.

Yeah, I saw that. I've been seeing that for a third of a century. But every scrap of actual data I've seen in the course of that period screams the polar opposite. And every single individual I've ever encountered who maintains that position has been a total moronic asshole - at best.

Davis Straub - 2014/08/21 04:00:54 UTC

Michael,

I see from the style of your arguments...

How can you see the "style" of his "arguments" when he hasn't made any? All I've seen are questions and quotes. If the sky looked green to you yesterday afternoon it's highly likely that the obvious mental health issue you have that causes you to perceive questions and quotes as arguments and the point of the weak link being to make aerotowing safer for the pilots is the one that's also distorting that perception.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25015
Zippy pounds in

Davis Straub - 2011/09/02 18:37:09 UTC

Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.

Have you considered shooting yourself through the heart and donating whatever's left of your brain to science so we can get a better grip on your sorts of problems? That would benefit hang gliding so much more than your active participation in it.

...that you were asking a rhetorical question and are not genuine in your query.

Wanna a nice genuine query?

How did you total fucking douchebags go from the 130 you found from the trails and errors of quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows to be the ideal universal aerotow release to suddenly finding yourselves to be happy with 200?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Davis Straub - 2011/07/30 19:51:54 UTC

I'm very happy with the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now.

Kinsley Sykes - 2011/07/30 21:09:42 UTC

Me too.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 06:25:28 UTC

I'm happy to know that I am in fact speaking with Steve, not Tad.
Tad makes my skin crawl.

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 14:13:55

As I pointed out in a link in this thread. I was very happy to have a nice weak link when that happened to me at Marty's place near Rochester, NY.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 16:45:39 UTC

I am more than happy to have a stronger weaklink and often fly with the string used for weaklinks used at Wallaby Ranch for tandem flights (orange string - 200 lbs). We used these with Russell Brown's (tug owner and pilot) approval at Zapata after we kept breaking weaklink in light conditions in morning flights.

Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 17:40:07 UTC

Yes, the weaklink at the tug end is stronger than the weaklink at the pilot end. But if the pilot uses a stronger weaklink then the tug pilot needs to make their weaklink stronger and they may not be happy to do so.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

I can tell you what my general ideas and rules are, but you do not need to agree with them nor do you get to dictate anything to me... if I'm not happy, you ain't getting towed by me. Why I'm not happy doesn't matter. It's my call, and if I'm having so much as a bad hair day, then tough. You can go get someone else. I won't be offended. Each tuggie is different, and I've had someone ask me to tow them with some stuff that I wasn't happy with and I told him point blank... go ask the other guy, maybe he'll do it.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC

See, most people are happy with how we do things. This isn't an issue for them. They just come out and fly. Thing's aren't perfect, but that's life... and life ain't perfect. You do what you can with what you've got and you move on.

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

The accepted standards and practices changed.

Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink. They changed their tug's link and they don't just pass the stuff out either. If you'd like to know more about it... go ask them.

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/11 02:21:14 UTC

If you're looking for a hard and fast rule that you can set your watch by, you're not going to get one. It's like defining "porn"... good luck with that.
At the end of the day, you've got to convince me, not the other way around.
If I'm not happy with your gear... for whatever reason... too bad.
I can give you a general idea of what I'm happy with and what I'm not, but i'll be damned if you're going to rock up and start demanding that I tow you because this or that. But that's how people that are picking a fight think. They're not looking for understanding, they're pushing their agenda. You are pushing an agenda. Push away pal. I couldn't care less if you like my answers or not.

I'm not really seeing the point of the weak link being to make aerotowing safer for the pilots. Looks to me that the point of the weak link is to make a small number of individuals happy for reasons they are totally incapable of explaining. Maybe you're putting happiness meters on your dicks but find that too embarrassing to talk about?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Gordon Rigg - 2014/08/21 07:54:46 UTC

If you are towing out of somewhere with nowhere to land forward after a low(ish) weak link break. In that situation is the tug pilot not risking his life with every launch? what happens when his engine stops?

If you are towing out of somewhere with nowhere to land forward after a low(ish) weak link break.

- That's not a sentence.

- This guy:

37-23223
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9655904048_89cce6423a_o.png


wasn't particularly lowish and had TONS of Quest Air Happy Acres putting green below and all around him when his Davis Link made the aerotowing safer for the pilots. He didn't survive the ambulance ride. If he'd been over a nice solid patch of forest there'd have been a pretty good possibility that he'd have been able to walk away.

- There's ALWAYS someplace to "land" forward. You might not like it or be able to survive it but what goes up...

In that situation is the tug pilot not risking his life with every launch?

- In what situation ISN'T a tug pilot risking his life with every launch? It's ALWAYS more dangerous to launch than to not launch. Two Highland Aerosports tug drivers have been killed since it was started up the 1999 Memorial Day weekend - Chad Elchin at Quest somewhere close to where Zack Marzec slammed in, Keavy Nenninger at Ridgely in a comparable location.

- Fuck the tug pilot.

- WE *PAY* the motherfucker to get us up to where we can work lift. Beyond staying in the position in which we need to be to accomplish what we want to accomplish and blowing off if we get the signal he's not our problem.

- Yeah. The tug pilot is well aware that having his engine stop is a really bad thing. So he optimizes his power system to never fail and - just to show his total contempt for the safety of the guy who's paying for the tow - optimizes the glider's power system to fail on every fourth flight. Notice the way on a typical towing weekend you'll have a dozen glider power failures and maybe a resulting crash or two while tug power failures are virtually nonexistent? In the injun country scenario you cited would you rather be on the tug with a well maintained Rotax or on the glider with a six-times-in-a-row Davis Link?

- Fuckin' Dragonfly jockeys apparently have zilch concern about risk as they seem quite content to fly a plane which has a control system defect which has killed two drivers in under two years.

- This guy:

Dick Reynolds - 1992/11
Rising Fawn

Four months have passed since my crash. Fortunately, I've regained control of the old brain, and would like to take this opportunity to pass on my experience in hopes that the rest of you might avoid a similar predicament.

Lookout Mountain Flight Park had acquired a new Moyes aerotug, and I was the aero-tow tug pilot -- claiming 200 plus tows to date. At 11:00 AM on May 17, 1992, I had decided to take two more tows and then call it quits for the day.

The conditions on this particular morning were very light -- great for towing. Takeoff went smoothly, with the glider getting off, then followed by the tug lifting off, thus increasing my angle of climb. My airspeed was pegged at four mph above stall. I took my eyes off the airspeed indicator to watch the hang glider's progress when the engine abruptly seized. I can distinctly remember taking my hand off the throttle to wave the hang glider off, and it was at that point that I fully realized there was no time! I pulled the tug's rope release and pushed the stick forward.

All this occurred somewhere around fifty feet. The combination of high nose angle plus the pull exerted by the climbing hang glider on the tug rope brought the tug plane to a screeching halt, so to speak. I believe my response time was less than one second, but this left the tug plane just hanging with very little elevator authority. The aircraft nose fell through the horizon into a thirty degree below attitude, with the ground rapidly rushing toward me. I attempted a nose-up input at approximately 25 to 30 feet, with no response. My feet, butt and gear impacted simultaneously.

I consider myself fortunate in that my friends were there to immobilize me. The doctors tell me that I'll be walking in a year or so, but that I shouldn't plan on winning any foot races.

I've spent a lot of time (sometimes it seems like that's all I've got!) talking with many knowledgeable individuals about this accident. I believe that tow pilot survivability can be improved as he/she passes through the "low and slow" envelope. From takeoff to a minimum safe altitude of approximately 150 feet, the tug will have to fly five or six mph faster. This will, of course, make it more difficult for the hang glider pilot, but will allow the tug more airspeed margin, thus abiding control as well as a lower nose-up climb attitude.

At the point the tug passes 150 feet, it may then be slowed to accommodate the hang glider. During this transition up to 150 feet, the tug pilot should be predisposed to release the tow rope at the slightest indication of trouble. By initiating this release, it could provide that "fraction of a second" that will give the tow pilot the "edge." The hang glider will have ample speed, and after releasing the tow rope at his end should enjoy a safe landing.

In summary, there is a risk envelope. Get safely above it.

...had his engine stop with lotsa nice runway in front of him that didn't do him any good.

- This guy:



...had his engine stop with lotsa nice runway in front of him that didn't do him any good.

what happens when his engine stops?

The aircraft loses the option of staying in the air. Its angle of attack WILL go way the fuck up and there's a high probability of a stall which can be real problematic if it's lowish. That's why - even on a by-definition lowish scooter tow with zero possibility of not having a great landing surface forward, backward, all around - Steve Wendt says:

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...



Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

And he's exceptionally knowledgeable...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?

Jim Rooney - 2010/05/31 01:53:13 UTC

BTW, Steve Wendt is exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one that signed off my instructor rating.

Hell, he's the one who signed off Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's instructor rating!

So when Davis Dead-On Straub says:

The point of the weaklink is to make aerotowing safer for the pilots.

in the same breath as telling us that he and many others just like him are scrapping the weak link that will make aerotowing safer for the pilots six times in a row in light morning conditions and have decided to be happy with one that makes THE TUG'S weak link THEIR weak link and is much less likely to and will hopefully NEVER make aerotowing safer for the pilots - especially the back end one who gets dumped with the towline - how can you not say that he's a lying sack o' shit?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Jim Gaar - 2014/08/21 12:35:49 UTC

Can't believe you fell for it!

Who fell for what?

I can't believe that I fell for the "standard aerotow weak link" bullshit that I did for as many years that I did.

On the first weekend of Ridgley's operation it was the exception when a glider got up behind the Dragonfly. On my first tow I was dead center, level, and steady in smooth air at 125 feet when I got dumped and, as in indirect consequence, badly crashed. That weekend I asked Chad why we didn't just beef them up. And he explained to me about how the hidden knot standard aerotow weak link were already loading the glider to 520 pounds and that was a lot of stress on the glider and I trusted him and bought it.

This was from the guy who at Ridgely less than 26 months later would set the still standing world record for consecutive loops. Gliders popping off and crashing just coming off the cart but we couldn't beef up the weak link because of the extra stress. I'm not sure whether he was lying to me or just another victim of the lie. But somewhere up the chain of command somebody lied to somebody. The standard aerotow weak link was NEVER used as a stress limiter - it was used because it blew at 260 pounds direct loading...

http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Quest Air Aerotow FAQ

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.

...and that was about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider - whether it was on the end of the towline or end of the bridle - and that was a good rule of thumb to keep the pressure of the towline down to the point at which it couldn't compromise the handling of the glider. And if it broke every time you flew into a bit of rough - or glassy smooth - air then tough shit. Deal with it, asshole.

This was a troll thread from the start...

Nah. It's a thread designed to attract, trap, and kill trolls. And as of your post we've got three of them right were we want them.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Gaar - 2013/02/13 17:57:05 UTC

Former Flight Park Manager

Because it has the best known and accountable safety record (in my personal books anyway).

You're not gonna survive this one, pigfucker.

Brad Barkley - 2014/08/21 13:35:09 UTC

Four trolls.

Yeah, the writing style is a "tad" bit familiar....either the dark lord of trolls himself, or one of his few minions.

The number of my few minions is growing.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC

As others have pointed out, they've used this fact intentionally to get off tow. It works.

You want MORE.
I want you to have less.
This is the fundamental disagreement.
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.

I'm sorry that you don't like that the tug pilot has the last word... but tough titties.
Don't like it?
Don't ask me to tow you.

Go troll somewhere else buddy.
I'm over this.

But that's not what Davis and "many of us" are now doing. They're doing just the opposite - big fucking time. NOBODY moved a pound in Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's direction. Davis and "many of us" moved up 54 percent in the Tad-O-Link direction. And I one hundred percent guarantee you that not one of them will ever move a pound back from that position.

And Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney is...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Oh how many times I have to hear this stuff.
I've had these exact same arguments for years and years and years.
Nothing about them changes except the new faces spouting them.

It's the same as arguing with the rookie suffering from intermediate syndrome.
They've already made up their mind and only hear that which supports their opinion.

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.

Nobody's talking about 130lb weaklinks? (oh please)
Many reasons.
Couple of 'em for ya... they're manufactured, cheap and identifiable.

See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins... I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.

So please, find me something... that you didn't make... that I can go out and buy from a store... that's rated and quality controlled... that fits your desire for a "non one size fits all" model, and *maybe* we can talk.
But you see... I'm the guy you've got to convince.
(or whoever your tug pilot may be... but we all tend to have a similar opinion about this)

You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.

"light" weaklink issues?
"I had to land"... boo hoo.
Oh, I thought of an other one... I smashed into the earth after my weaklink let go cuz I fly as badly as I tow, and I'm only still here cuz my weaklink didn't let me pile in harder.

Your anecdotal opinion is supposed to sway me?
You forget, every tow flight you take requires a tug pilot... we see EVERY tow.
We know who the rockstars are and who the muppets are.
Do you have any idea how few of us there are?
You think we don't talk?
I'll take our opinion over yours any day of the week.

Ok, I'm tired of this.
I'm not really sure who you're trying to convince.
Again, I don't care to argue this stuff.
I'll answer actual questions if you're keen to actually hear the answers, but arguing with me? Really? Have fun with that.

Gimme a call when you think of something that we haven't already been through years ago... cuz to date, you have yet to come up with anything new. Well, maybe it's new to you I guess. It's old as dirt to me though.

...PERMANENTLY FUCKED. There is no possible fucking way he can squirm and ooze his way out of the diarrhea he's created for himself and his douchebag cult members like Rodie and you. And he knows it. Numbers have been his enemy from birth and you'll never again hear him using any in a post.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

The accepted standards and practices changed.
I still won't tow people with doubled up weaklinks. You don't get to "make shit up". I don't "make shit up" for that matter either.

Of course not. He won't tow 130*4=520. But he WILL and DOES tow:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37786
Joe on plowing

Joe Schmucker - 2014/06/12 12:51:42 UTC

I use a 200lb three strand weak link or they break every time.

200*3=600.

And also now - although nobody's seemed to have noticed yet - you've got this can of worms to deal with.

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

What material should be used for weaklinks?

From section 3.4 of the 1999 HGFA Towing Manual:

Recommended breaking load of a weak link is 1g. - i.e. the combined weight of pilot, harness and glider (dependant on pilot weight - usually approximately 90 to 100 kg for solo operations; or approximately. 175 kg for tandem operations).
Each pilot should have his/her own weak link of appropriate strength.
It is recommended that a new weak link is used for every launch; or a fabric sheath is used to cover the weak link to protect it as it is dragged along the ground.
Testing weak links tied from "No 8" builders string line has shown that the type of knot used does not greatly affect the breaking strain of the weak link.

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.
Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle. The tow forces on the weaklink will be roughly divided in half by this placement. Pilots will be shown how to tie the weaklink so that it more likely breaks at its rating breaking strength.

For many years a number of us (US pilots) have felt that #8 bricklayers nylon line was not an appropriate material to use for weaklinks as it is not as consistent in its breaking strength (as far as we are concerned) as the Greenspot line used in the US. At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.
If the weaklink is at one end of the bridle then there is little to no reason to replace the weaklink after each flight. The weaklink should be replaced if it shows any signs of wear as its strength may be reduced. The weaklink is constructed using "fisherman's knots."
A single loop of weaklink is used at the end of the V-bridle or the end of the pro tow bridle.
Getting pilots into the air quickly is also safer as it reduces the stress that pilots feel on the ground and keeps them focused on their job which is to launch safely and without hassling the ground crew or themselves. When we look at safety we have to look at the whole system, not just one component of that system. One pilot may feel that one component is unsafe from his point of view and desire a different approach, but accommodating one pilot can reduce the overall safety of the system.

We've started with:

Recommended breaking load of a weak link is 1g.

which is just an Aussie regurgitation of Donnell's bullshit that...

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider.

...a one G weak link will keep you from getting into too much trouble (but just in case it doesn't...

http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Quest Air Aerotow FAQ

IMPORTANT - It should never be assumed that the weak link will break in a lockout.
ALWAYS RELEASE THE TOWLINE before there is a problem.

...you need to be really proactive and release as soon as possible after you get off the cart).

But then Davis, because...

Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line...

...to put all gliders at 1.0 Gs, writes the Aussie (and US) comp rules such that all gliders will be at 1.0 Gs by using 130 lb. braided Dacron line.

But then Peter Holloway comes along and decides that the glider will break up if the towline tension exceeds...

Michael Farren - 2014/08/19 00:23:01 UTC

The weak link is a safety release device on a hang glider tow line (normally a loop of kite string) that will break if the towing tension on the line exceeds a particular force. This is to stop any chance of the tow force rising to dangerous levels where structural failure of the glider might occurred during the tow. My Weak links were set to break at 200 lbs or there abouts (my clip in weight is also about 200 lbs).

Using a breaking strain value the same as the pilot clip in weight also makes it practical to easily test the accuracy of the breaking force on the weak link. Support the weak link overhead (tree) and it should just carry the pilots weight. A good bounce up or down while the pilot is swinging (feet down) on the weak link should see it break.

They normally fail at the knot so have a look at some good fishing type knots to get a consistent break force.

...pilot weight.

078-033002
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7432/14074344602_ac568c41da_o.png

083-033007
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5584/14463271511_1519557346_o.png

093-033320
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3847/14465479804_26d8820d90_o.png

098-033607
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2929/14280012000_324a187d20_o.png


And now Davis and "many of us" have decided that numbers really aren't all that important in keeping gliders and tugs from getting into too much trouble or being overloaded and weak link strength is really just a matter of what makes people happy.

So now we've got this totally insane situation in which Michael is using a precision two hundred pound weak link on the end of his towline and Davis and many of us have the exact same precision weak link on the ends of their pro toad bridles and EVERYBODY'S *HAPPY* and NOBODY is seeing ANYTHING WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE.

You douchebags have SO fucked yourselves and don't think for a nanosecond that I won't stop until I've driven this to the hilt.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Hey Brad...

Brad Barkley - 2014/08/21 13:35:09 UTC

Yeah, the writing style is a "tad" bit familiar....either the dark lord of trolls himself, or one of his few minions.

I just did a word count for everything michael170 has written in his five posts in this thread - 88 plus a .
- 17.6 words per post
- ten sentences
-- five questions
-- two statements of agreement
-- one:
--- statement of obvious fact with which nobody with a low double digit IQ or up has ever in the entire of hang gliding disagreed
--- referral to / endorsement of another contributor's post
--- thank you

Also gave Don Arsenault a .

I also did a word count on the other twenty posts from the two and a half plus day / 922 hit history of this thread for statements refuting, challenging, disagreeing with anything he's said. ZERO.

Not even so much as a "Sink This!" from some asshole like Chris Valley.

Maybe you could tell us what your definition of a troll is to help us all get on the same page, reach better understandings, fully realize the appropriate levels of respect each individual deserves.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Brad Barkley - 2014/08/21 13:35:09 UTC

Yeah, the writing style is a "tad" bit familiar....either the dark lord of trolls himself, or one of his few minions.

Lemme tell ya sumpin' else, pigfucker...

I've been in this sport for over 34 years. I outrank you in anything you wanna name and I've had experiences that none of you newcomer punks is ever gonna have. And within that timespan no one can cite one tiny scrap of evidence that I've ever posted so much as a punctuation mark without clearly identifying myself as "Tad Eareckson". I've been banned from:

2008/12/12 - Capitol Hang Glider Association
2009/05/17 - Peter Birren Show
2009/11/10 - Jack Show
2010/02/24 - Paragliding Forum
2010/04/03 - Davis Show
2010/11/19 - Houston Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association
2011/12/14 - Bob Kuczewski Show
2012/11/01 - Rocky Mountain Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association
2014/01/11 - Mikkel Krogh Show

Every single one of those bannings (well, actually CHGA was just a three month suspension that's gone on for the better part of seven years now - but what the hell) is a badge of honor. (Honor? Look it up.)

I'm not gonna dignify the kind of shit heap that welcomes or even tolerates scum like Davis, Rodie, and you with my respectful participation. I'm gonna say precisely what I want, when I want, and how I want here at Kite Strings. And I'm gonna get listened to and watch my numbers, respect, influence, possibly even membership and participation grow and the fear levels of the sleazy enemies of hang gliding like Davis, Rodie, and you keep increasing.

You are NOTHING.