Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Brian Scharp - 2014/08/21 14:29:00 UTC

Gordon Rigg - 2014/08/21 07:54:46 UTC

If you are towing out of somewhere with nowhere to land forward after a low(ish) weak link break. In that situation is the tug pilot not risking his life with every launch? what happens when his engine stops?

Yes, in that situation both pilots are putting themselves at risk by relying on not losing power. How would a weak link break - that you don't want - be an advantage?

Lets the tug fly out of the situation more safely and easily. DUH. The ignorance and stupidity of some of these Jack Show guys never ceases to amaze me.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Dennis Wood - 2014/08/21 17:24:34 UTC

Brad Barkley - 2014/08/21 13:35:09 UTC

Yeah, the writing style is a "tad" bit familiar....either the dark lord of trolls himself, or one of his few minions.

As a "professional" writer, one would have thought you'd have chosen a different word than "minions", perhaps like "minnows." On second thought, at least "minnows" have attended "school".....

- He's a professional...

http://www.hanggliding.org/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3910
Viewing profile

Location: Western Maryland
Occupation: fiction writer

...FICTION writer - as if you needed to go to his profile to figure that out.

- Yeah, he should've chosen a different word. The active folk at Kite Strings aren't my or anybody else's MINIONS. They're all capable of thinking for themselves, understanding the issues as well as or better than I do, and any one of them is quite capable of mopping the floor with your stupid asses without any help whatsoever from Yours Truly.

- They've also attended "school" - the kind of "school" that...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

Dennis Wood - 2009/04/12 13:52:58 UTC

probably obvious to everyone, but i'll say it anyway. just as we practice locating our reserve handles and even hanging for hours in our harnesses in the garage, maybe we should also have a tow release rigged up so as to while away the hours hang waiting, so that we can find it every time, even with someone messing with you. be familiar with what you got. as for the best type release, it ain't been made yet, or people wouldn't still be trying. but remember, the release is safety equipment of the first order. treat it as such.

...teaches students how and when to use a shift key.

Brad Barkley - 2014/08/21 18:03:02 UTC

Any of you twats wanna post anything of SUBSTANCE? Just kidding.

We have a really good chance to nail these assholes right know.

"I have a U2 160 and hook in at 160 - the bottom of the range - and tow two point. What weak link should I install at the top end of my bridle and why?"

Ask them that question. It doesn't matter if they answer it totally or partially correctly or incorrectly or dodge it. We already have 'em checkmated. They're totally fucked.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31738
Calculating weak link strength

Dave Gills - 2014/08/21 18:04:31 UTC
Grove City, Pennsylvania

Hook in weight + Weight of glider x 1.4 = weak link breaking strength.
For me...
175 + 50 x 1.4 = 315 lbs
If I use a weak link on the top (keel) when using a bridal then it is shared tension and divide by 2....Right?
Where does the 1.4 come from?
Does it vary depending on the skill of the pilot or the type of towing you are doing? (scooter, air or payout winch)
Sorry...2 questions in 1 day.
And I did try to search this topic.

- Well before you go about "calculating weak link strength" you need to know what the PURPOSE of the weak link is.

Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.

Looking at your questions it's obvious that you have no fuckin' clue. Once you understand what the purpose of the weak link is the logic for determining strength falls into place pretty easily.

- Did you check your owner's manual? Should be in there - just like for sailplanes. If it's not then write your manufacturer, ask him what the fuck it should be and why the fuck it's not in the fuckin' manual. And post all the correspondence on The Jack Show.

- The thread that was hanging out immediately below yours from the time you started until Davis bumped it with his ten miles south of useless crap at 2014/08/21 20:30:31 UTC it is called:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Wouldn't that maybe be a good place to ask around? You can find:
- some sensible and nonsensible statements on the purpose of the weak link
- what:
-- Davis and many of us are currently happy with
-- Michael Farren is using to make sure his glider doesn't get ripped apart
- a reference to how badly you can get fucked up by using a super safe weak link
- some:
-- blatherings by smartass twats who've never had anything of substance to say on anything
-- commentary on the Dark Lord of Trolls and His Minions

Don't we have enough bases covered for you there?

- How 'bout The Davis Show? Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney hasn't been banned from there quite yet, he has an extremely keen intellect, and he'll be more than happy to spend twenty pages telling you he just might know what he's talking about and regaling you with descriptions of track record lengths.

- Go to Quest's website. They've been perfecting aerotowing for twenty years and they certainly have the information you want posted. If not just contact Russell Brown, the Tjaden twins, or Bobby Bailey - who's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit.

- Anything wrong with the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden?

- What, the fourteen page Higher Education article by Dr. Trisa Tilletti on how to tie a loop of 130 pound Greenspot to put whatever your flying dead center on USHGA's recommendations wasn't enough for you?

- C'mon Davis. You've been dictating weak link strengths since the beginning of time for tens of thousands of flights. Help this guy out. Tell him what you're currently happy with.

- Hey Peter... You're registered on The Jack Show, right?

Hook in weight + Weight of glider...

Weak links have NOTHING to do with flying weights. If you're giving hook-in and glider weight you're thinking about trying to use your weak link as a pitch and lockout protector and emergency release. That kind of "thinking" has gotten a lot of people mangled and killed.

...x 1.4 = weak link breaking strength.

- No. The towline tension that translates to target weak link breaking strength.

- Dark Lord of Trolls here...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Flyhg - 2011/08/28 12:26:18 UTC

I believe that the 1.5 G thing is something Tad made up.

Everybody thinks mid range weak link strength is something Tad made up. So why don't you ask him?

175 + 50 x 1.4 = 315 lbs

I need to know your glider's maximum capacity - just like it says in the FAA regulations covering hang glider (and sailplane) aerotowing.

If I use a weak link on the top (keel) when using a bridal...

Do me a big favor and use a bridLE.

...then it is shared tension...

- Pressure.
- Yes. If it isn't shared - just like it is on the Dragonfly to put the thrust line where it should be - you're seriously decertifying your glider and setting yourself up with a good option for getting killed.

...and divide by 2....Right?

Wrong. You've got about a sixty degree bridle apex angle and thus a fifteen percent amplification of the split tension. 200 pound towline tension the weak link's feeling 115.

Where does the 1.4 come from?

- Where'd you get it from?

- It's the middle of the FAA legal range. I was its first pusher but that was back in the days before I realized that the FAA guys were also useless lying twats and that the bottom of their legal range was insanely dangerous. So now I bump it up to between 1.5 and 2.0 - depending upon what your glider capacity is and the release capacity.

Does it vary depending on the skill of the pilot...

Of course. If you're really good...

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3746/13864051003_a820bcf2b8_o.png


http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9655904048_89cce6423a_o.png
37-23223

...you can use a much heavier weak link which will allow you to get into a much steeper climb than the safe stuff that Bill Cummings uses. Then when it breaks you'll be able to respond optimally to keep things safely together.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


Or maybe it works the other way around. Really crappy pilots on the heavy stuff and the ones with the best training on the light ones. I can never remember. Talk to Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney.

...or the type of towing you are doing? (scooter, air or payout winch)

No, the function of the weak link is ONLY to protect the glider from being overloaded and it has shit to do with pilot skill, flavor of towing, or the comfort level of the fuckin' idiot douchebag on the Dragonfly.

Sorry...2 questions in 1 day.
And I did try to search this topic.

Try these locked topics on The Davis Show:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Lemme tell ya sumpin', Dave...

Hang gliding's a bit into its fourth decade of practical aerotowing. And the fact that you can't go to scores of sources for an answer to something like this and get the same, consistent, logical answer - just like you've been able to do in sailplaning since the beginning of time - should scare you shitless about getting involved in towing.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

michael170 - 2014/08/21 22:50:43 UTC

I keep a bottle of Champagne on the shelf. I'll be uncorking that the next time one of you idiots splatters himself on the runway or below the ramp.

Just "A" bottle? I keep a couple of cases to get me though the first week of celebration.

2014/08/22 00:03:16 UTC - Sink This! -- Paul Hurless

Knew we could count on ya, Paul. Thanks. I always feel like we've missed something until you've clicked that button.

Davis Straub - 2014/08/21 22:59:05 UTC

He only disgraces himself further. Perhaps a complete lack of self awareness. A bad brain wiring job.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25015
Zippy pounds in

Davis Straub - 2011/09/02 18:37:09 UTC

Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.

Highest sorta compliment you can get. Along the lines of being called a liar and dictator by Bob.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31738
Calculating weak link strength

Jim Gaar - 2014/08/21 18:12:50 UTC

I believe if you can find the FAA's calculation method you will find your answer.

Well yeah, that would definitely work... But that's for sailplanes and if you really wanna do the job right you need to get ahold of the data from the hundreds of thousands of weak link test flights major tow parks were doing to work things out before Jims Gaar and Rooney arrived. Pay particular attention to the final four or five years when they'd narrowed things down to 120, 130, and 140 pound Greenspot. And try to get the coroners' reports from when they were still tinkering with 150 and 160.

I AT'd for years with 130 lb test kite string. NEVER had any problems.

NOBODY's ever had any problems with 130...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13689
eating dirt

Jim Gaar - 2009/09/18 19:23:44 UTC

Hell I've literally shoved the control frame out in front of me to avoid a whack when it got a little ahead of me in a light DW landing, similar to when I've had to slide it in on my belly (did that once after a weaklink brake coming off a launch cart.

Something that - by definition - INCREASES the safety of the towing operation can't possibly DECREASE the safety of the towing operation.

- It's a proven system that works and has an incredibly long track record.

- Being ON tow is ALWAYS a hundred times more dangerous than being OFF tow so any time it breaks your safety margins instantly get much wider - at the expense of a bit of inconvenience.

- If you get:

-- your face smashed in or your neck broken in the course of that inconvenience it's only because you're a shit pilot and it's a damn good thing your Rooney Link broke when it did 'cause if it hadn't you'd have been hurt or killed a lot worse.

-- locked out and slammed in on tow using a:
--- 130 pound Greenspot standard aerotow weak link it's because you thought you could fix a bad thing and didn't wanna start over
--- 135 pound Greenspot stronglink it's because you traded safety off for more convenience

NOT good at all for truck/payout towing.

Of course not. If you use it for truck/payout towing it won't break when it's supposed to.

For that I use 205 Leech line.

Definitely. That WILL break when it's supposed to.

I hook in just over 200 pounds...

...and just under twelve IQ points...

...so my total package is near 300 total when I fly with my U2 145. YMMV...

Yeah, you're 315 so you probably wanna use 215.25 pound leechline to get the same top flight weak link performance that Rodie does.

Davis Straub - 2014/08/21 20:30:31 UTC

http://ozreport.com/9.050#7
http://ozreport.com/toc.php?title=Weaklinks%20-%20the%20HGFA%20rules&articles=12.081/2,9.050/7,9.049/1,9.035/5,3.136/2,3.066/3
http://ozreport.com/3.068#2

Yeah Dave, whenever you're given links by a deranged sociopath you wanna study them thoroughly as possible. And when you get through see if you can resolve what you've learned with:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Davis Straub - 2014/08/20 19:48:26 UTC

Many of us are now using 200 lb test line from Cortland.

Mike Badley - 2014/08/21 21:31:04 UTC
Sacramento

Empirically,
If you keep breaking weak links and you are shouting WHAT THE F$$*!! - then try the next size up until you get to "Hey Cooter, Nice tow!"

If you never break weak links and you sometimes WISH they would while you're pulling in for all your worth yelling SHiiiii... well, step down in size.

Yeah Dave, when you're pulling in for all your worth yelling SHiiiii... well, that's when you REALLY want your weak link to work...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMsIkAOeJ0I


...to increase the safety of the towing operation...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

Lauren Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:56:42 UTC
Groveland, Florida

I am posting the report my husband, Paul Tjaden, just wrote about Zach Marzec's death at Quest. It is a great tragedy to lose someone so young and vital. We are sick about it, and our hearts go out to his friends, family and loved ones.

Donnell Hewett - 1980/12

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation."

C'mon - any Hill-billy knows this stuff.

ALL hillbillies know that!

Why are you looking at 'manuals'?

Well, they don't have it in the manuals, but you CAN go to their website:

http://www.willswing.com/articles/ArticleList.asp#AerotowRelease
Aerotow Release Attachment Points for Wills Wing Gliders

Always use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less.

And that's TOTALLY consistent with the advice you're getting there on The Jack Show - so you obviously don't need any help from...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

...the Dark Lord of Trolls - or any of his Minions.

Mike Badley - 2014/08/21 21:37:22 UTC

Dave Gills - 2014/08/21 18:04:31 UTC

If I use a weak link on the top (keel) when using a bridal then it is shared tension and divide by 2....Right?

Probably not the BEST location for that weak link.

But, yeah, your math is OK.

I would want it out on the tow line attached ahead of the release...

The RELEASE??? What do you need a release for? You already have a weak link that will work while you're pulling in for all your worth yelling SHiiiii... Focal point of a safe towing system.

...directly in line with the tow force of the winch.

Oh. He's towing off a winch! And here I was assuming that if he was talking about a keel attachment he'd be towing behind a tug.

Attached at the keel, you might not have a true half of the 'vector' of forces on the glider, could be considerably LESS than the forces acting on your hips...

And here I was thinking shoulders.

...just depends on the angles involved.

Right. The bridle pressure BELOW the tow ring can be ENTIRELY different from the bridle pressure ABOVE the tow ring. There are a lot of really good technical articles explaining the calculations needed to determine the precise figures based on vector angles. Mostly Navier-Stokes equations.

But hey.... I'm not a big Tow-Junky and I bet it works fine for those that have much more experience at it than me.

Nah, you're doing fine, Mike. Keep talking. What I'm REALLY enjoying is watching all the Jack Show douchebags - Jack and Davis in particular - not saying anything in response to this moronic lunatic deadly crap.

Dave Gills - 2014/08/21 21:40:21 UTC

Probably not the BEST location for that weak link. I would want it out on the tow line attached ahead of the release directly in line with the tow force of the winch. Attached at the keel, you might not have a true half of the 'vector' of forces on the glider, could be considerably LESS than the forces acting on your hips, just depends on the angles involved.

Good point...Noted
Exactly the kind of info I need

C'mon - any Hill-billy knows this stuff. Why are you looking at 'manuals'?

"Hold my beer whilst I try dis lil' green un..."

*Ping....SMACK*

Good luck, Dave. I'd have somebody PM you but this:
- is much too fun to watch
- seems to be the kind of crap you wanna hear anyway

Hey Kinsley...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/11 17:46:12 UTC

Because this has been beaten to death - google Tad Eareckson and try to read the mind-numbing BS. Most of the folks who have been towing for decades have worked this stuff out.

Mind-numbing BS? Worked this stuff out?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycepxaYKLHc


Another idiot Tad-O-Linker. Jeez... When will these morons ever learn!

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31749
Wild aerotow ride-

Let's see how long it takes for someone to comment that his weak link doesn't break when it's supposed to.

[Steve Davy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycepxaYKLHc
Near Death Experience Hanggliding close Crash

parallaxax - 2 days ago

If your weak link is the RIGHT size, it should break, that's the whole idea of having it. And yes....pilot induced oscillation is hard to control you have to get back to the centre of the glider and don't over control.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

michael170 - 2014/08/30 15:20:32 UTC

Weak link making the aerotowing safer for the pilots:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNCrD6Cnc48
hang glider crash

bisfal bisto - 2014/01/24
dead
019-0725
http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3854/14367992265_7f220637c2_o.png

Mike Bomstad - 2014/08/30 17:07:51 UTC

Pilot needs to make himself safer by landing better...

Oh, fer sure. And this is where the value of the Quest Link REALLY shines. What better motivation to make oneself safer by landing better than getting dumped into a stall at fifty as your weak link increases the safety of the towing operation? 'Specially when you trash a 120 dollar downtube to help get the point across / lessen your likelihood of forgetting.

weak link had nothing to do with it.

Nah. If he'd been able to tow up to a couple grand, boat around in thermals for a couple hours, start setting up from five hundred feet, practice an RLF approach he'd have gotten ABSOLUTELY NOTHING out of the exercise.

Both hand transitions were terrible...

Real asshole. Can't even handle the inconvenience of the safety of the towing operation being increased. Probably oughta...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12682
Landing on your feet (for AEROTOW)- So Dangerous

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/06/29 14:26:26 UTC

OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!?
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!!

I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for sh*t.... LEARN TO LAND That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh???

...stay home and play checkers. And you don't fuck up YOUR transitions...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoGv_5uGdNo


...anywhere NEAR as badly as this guy does. And you didn't even have YOUR weak link increase the safety of the towing operation.

And it doesn't bother you THE SLIGHTEST BIT that the Quest Link blew when the glider was in reasonably good position and totally under control and overrode the decisions of both the student and tug driver to continue the tow.

Total fuckin' idiot.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6408
Highland Towing Seminar and recognition for their efforts

Ward Odenwald - 2014/08/30 01:44:02 UTC

To enhance towing safety, Highland will present a seminar that covers the science and art of staying on tow in both smooth and thermic air...

Enhance towing safety by STAYING ON TOW?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

...at the beginning of the 2015 season (3rd or 4th Saturday of March).

Oh good...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6326
An OK Day at Ridgely

Matthew Graham - 2014/06/09 01:51:11 UTC

I got on the flight line at a little after 1pm behind Sammi. She had a sledder. Then the tandem glider called rank and went ahead of me. The tandem broke a weak link and it took a while to sort out a new weak link. I finally towed around 1:30 and also broke a link at 450'. Back to the end of the line. Actually, my wife Karen let my cut in front of her. Bertrand and Sammi towed again. Each having sledder. The cirrus had moved in and things did not look good. Again I arrived at the front of the line only to have the tandem call dibs. And then the tug needed gas. I thought I would never get into the air...

Nuthin' like the pros when you really wanna understand the science and art of staying on tow in both smooth and thermic air.

This learning event should be considered a "must attend" for all who fly at Highland or tow elsewhere!

Why? Aren't the vast majority of Ridgely flyers qualified by Ridgely with just about all the remainder by equally competent operations like Manquin, Kitty Hawk, Lockout, Quest?

- What critical information have they been holding back from everybody? Or have stunning new discoveries just been made in the science and art of aerotowing and they need a bit o' time to properly recalculate and recalibrate everything?

- How come they're not posting this information on their website now? If it's a "must attend" why have we gotta wait the better part of six months for this information? It's not really good enough to make a difference in a Zack Marzec situation? Or they're just hoping that nobody else will get killed before things suit their schedule?

Plus, in recognition of Highland's efforts to keep us safe...

Like Keavy Nenninger, Paul Vernon, John Claytor...

...and celebrate their Long-Standing support of Region 9 hang gliding...

They are fucking Region 9 hang gliding. They moved in and took it over.

...the MHGA invites everyone to a Highland PARTY on the afternoon/evening of Saturday October 18th (rain date Oct 25th).

I'll mark my calendar.

Lemme ask ya sumpin' Ward...

If these are such crack aerotowing safety people then how come they told me not to ever again bother showing up at "their" airport right after I started talking FAA? I'da thunk they'd have totally welcomed the extra scrutiny and posted the results with unabashed pride. You think they might've had a lot of shit to hide?

Fuck you, Ward.

[Steve Davy]

Total fuckin' idiot.

Bullshit. Mike has a long way to go in order to make it up to the level of a total fuckin' idiot.