Skyting demolition

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

W9GFO - 2014/08/27 22:09:40 UTC

A two line kite, if steered straight will rise up high almost overhead...

The better its performance (glide ratio) the steeper the tow angle it will be able to achieve.

...and the line tension will be low. Steer it so that it is lower and the line tension will increase while the kite speeds up. To keep the speed up, and thus the tension, you fly in figure eights.

This isn't a great analogy. I'm guessing that a two line kite can only be controlled in roll and I know it's essentially lockout proof.

- Wind speed is analogous to tug airspeed and you can vary what the kite's feeling by walking/running upwind or backing downwind.

- Above stall speed the faster / the more tension for any given angle of attack - which, on the kite, is fixed - flying straight towards the pull.

- If the glider:

-- is reasonably well lined up behind the tug and pulls in / decreases its angle of attack the tension IMMEDIATELY goes way the fuck down - and just the opposite for doing just the opposite

-- turns away from the tug you'll have a resultant from the old forward and new sideways vectors and the tension will go way the fuck up and keep going way the fuck up until something breaks

If you fly far to one side the tension will go low again just as it did when up high but this is only if you fly beyond the power window.

I'm lost here. But it doesn't matter 'cause with the hang glider the tension will be zero 'cause you'll have already blown whatever you were using for a weak link a long time ago - for aero, which is where this shit really matters, anyway.

I believe a hang glider in lockout behaves in a similar manner. The line tension increases during the lockout...

Yes.

...because the speed of the glider increases.

No. It's a direction thing.

If by chance the lockout could continue far enough into the wind I suppose the tension would decrease again but I doubt that is possible when being towed.

Lockouts don't continue "into the wind". They continue away from it.

Mike Lake - 2014/08/28 12:29:49 UTC

michael170 - 2014/08/25 02:14:43 UTC

Sure they do. Just read the Official Flight Training Manual of the U. S. Hang Gliding Association, Published by idiot Matt Taber if you don't believe me.

Despite the 'thumbs down' given to the above...

2014/08/25 02:52:28 UTC - Sink This! -- Paul Hurless
2014/08/25 19:19:46 UTC - Sink This! -- Sam Kellner
2014/08/25 11:47:41 UTC - Sink This! -- Christopher Albers

...michael170 makes a valid and disturbing point.

Getting 'thumbs downs' from those total fucking douchebags is ALWAYS confirmation that one is making a valid and disturbing point.

This seems to have been ignored so I will revive it here.

Lockouts can be prevented by using good technique, light tow pressures, and appropriately-sized weak links--if you get too far off heading, and a lockout begins to develop, a proper weak link will break and release you from tow.

Ignoring the fact that the term 'pressure' is only appropriate if you are squeezing something, not too much use if you are referring to a tow rope...

Don't EVER ignore the fact that the term 'pressure' is only appropriate if you are squeezing something. The millisecond that you see or hear it is the millisecond you know you're dealing with an asshole.

...it clearly states that a 'proper?' weak-link WILL break in a lockout ... and this is from the Official Flight Training Manual of the U. S. Hang Gliding Association!

And Peter Cheney is on this list (pcheney) and last posted just under two months ago. It would be so much fun to call him out and ask him to justify that atrocity of his and Matt's. And, come to think of it, Matt (LMFP) is registered as well and has posted once.

Doesn't anyone else find this disturbing?

No. On The Jack Show...

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HG ORG Mission Statement - Hang Gliding Wiki

HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

...they have much more serious issues to worry about.

This is widespread, incorrect and frankly dangerous information.

It's The Big Lie. Damn near all of the towing crashes - most assuredly including this one - we've had over the course of the third of a century's worth of Hewett based hang gliding can be attributed to it.

I can only hope the guy in the video didn't wait about too long expecting his weak-link to save him 'any time now'.

He had a placebo release. If he'd tried to use it he'd have had Jack Showers telling him he should've stayed on the downtubes and ridden it out.

P.S. I'd previously expressed a guess that the winch had been freewheeled near the onset of the course change. But a couple days ago it dawned on me that if that were the case it would be really tough to explain how the Quest Link had blown on impact. Great job guys - all around. And we REALLY appreciate your participation in this discussion.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Brian Scharp - 2014/08/28 16:23:11 UTC

Are you suggesting it's unreasonable to expect everyone to come to the opposite conclusion based on the chance they may have been following these discussions?

Mike Lake - 2014/08/28 16:56:18 UTC

Forgive me if I've misunderstood your comment.

The two 'sides' to this particular debate are 'A weak-link will protect you from a lockout' against 'A weak-link will not protect you from a lockout'.
These discussions are not new there has been an ongoing debate since about the mid '80s.

There's never been a debate. It's always been snake oil versus vaccination.

I don't think it's a question of conclusions and certainly any stance I have on this matter holds no weight. It's a question of what is right.

In hang gliding? Since when did people start giving a rat's ass about right and wrong?

What is your stance?

Brian Scharp - 2014/08/28 17:19:47 UTC

It's acknowledged that information in the manual is wrong...

Not by Matt Taber, Peter Cheney, Dennis Pagen, Quest, Wallaby, USHGA it hasn't.

...and has been discussed many times.

And things only start creeping towards reform after a popular charismatic young pro toad tandem aerotow instructor is killed by his Quest Link.

I'm not seeing anyone defending weak links preventing lock outs.

Whitewater is. Anybody and everybody who uses a 130 pound Greenspot "standard aerotow weak link" is using it as a pitch and lockout protector.

So if you wanted someone to have the correct information, they'd have to get it somewhere else.

http://www.kitestrings.org/topic6.html
Weak links
1256 posts, 37457 hits.

If the manual doesn't reflect reality, change it. It being the manual.

Leave it. Wait until that crap kills somebody who's family gives a rat's ass and help them sue Lookout, Matt, and USHGA out of existence.

Henrik - 2014/08/28 18:18:02 UTC
Denmark

What does "cross controlling" mean?

It means NOT controlling. It's a bullshit term. I despise it along with the assholes who use it.

If it means that your legs travel in the opposite direction of your upper body, how can you tell he is cross controlling from the video, as you can't see his legs?

It's a fun term for assholes to use.

The thing that strikes me as most odd is, that when he is about to enter the lock out he doesn't stay pulled all the way to the left but instead pulls and let go several times.

Some fuckin' idiot told him to use bump control input. They never taught him how to actually turn or correct a glider. They taught him not to hold turn input so he wouldn't overcontrol and lock the glider out.

Odakyu-sen - 2014/08/28 20:14:32 UTC
Auckland

Has anyone ever put a strain gauge on the line where the weak-link would be and measured the tension during a lock-out?

Has anybody put a speedometer on a car and noted the speed as it veers off the road and into a telephone pole?

That would surely put an end to the debate once and for all.

We've been locking people out and killing them on weak links barely heavy enough to get gliders airborne for a third of a century. NOTHING will put an end to this "DEBATE" - 'specially as long as we've got assholes dignifying the conflict with the term "DEBATE".

Tiberiu Szollosi - 2014/08/28 20:43:41 UTC

Yes it has been done , how do you think weak links were introduced to begin with !

To hang gliding? By a dangerous delusional Jesus freak who was never gonna let data, reality get in the way of his assumptions.

To conventional glider towing? To make sure that there was something cheap between the glider and what was pulling it that would break before anything expensive was towing it. It was the WEAK LINK which is why it was called the WEAK LINK. Try to absorb that idea and gimme a buzz if you need somebody to help walk you through the concept.

Anyway you can tow without them if you like

- Show me some videos of gliders using something better than placebo releases benefitting from weak links. Sailplanes never blow them and thus they're of no practical use. Likewise it's a good idea to fly with a parachute but if you're not a total idiot it will probably never come into play.

- No. For aerotowing anyway you CANNOT tow without them. There are very clear common sense regulations covering them, everybody just does whatever Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney tells them to and violates the fuck out of the regulations, and every now and then people die as a consequence.

Davis Straub - 2014/08/28 21:59:57 UTC

On a hang glider?

What the fuck are you talking about, asshole?

Diev Hart - 2014/08/28 23:35:11 UTC

I tried to stay out but I have to add something to this discussion....

Instead of subtracting - as per usual?

Weaklinks are ment to break from a QUICK change in tow force....

By what total morons? Weak links are MEANT TO and WILL break when the tension reaches their strength. Half a second or five minutes.

Most lockouts build force slow(ish) and do not start as a quick change in force...so the weaklinks won't save you from a lockout....they can if the force builds so high before you pound in to break them.....(but usually too late and you hit the ground).

Good. That occasionally generates interest in releases that don't stink on ice.

I locked out up high and tested this...once.....it broke when the nose of my glider was almost pointed down at the ground (much to late to save if low)....

Run a field test low - just to make sure.

Release early when ANY issue comes up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And if you're using a "release" from Lockout Mountain Flight Park...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction

Diev Hart - 2011/07/14 17:19:12 UTC

I have had issues with them releasing under load. So I don't try to release it under a lot of load now.

...don't try to release them under load.

michael170 - 2014/08/29 01:23:35 UTC

Brian Scharp - 2014/08/28 17:19:47 UTC

I'm not seeing anyone defending weak links preventing lock outs.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35257
The student on tow

Nic Welbourn - 2014/08/29 02:35:57 UTC

My experience in AT is limited (I no longer do it, margin for error too small for moi...

Try not using total shit for equipment.

...cost, travel, etc), but when I was getting my AT rating I locked out at about 500ft and indeed the weak link broke as I was almost pointing vertically down...

Big surprise.

...if it hadn't I imagine things wouldn't have turned out well...

If it had been low enough...

11-1814


12-1915

...your ass would've been dead. So all you're doing is rolling dice.

...the mild-mannered tug pilot said he's seen worse...

He was also a total fucking idiot for towing you on the junk you were fitted with.

...but he was about to release at his end when the weak link broke.

Oh. So you can use a RELEASE to terminate a bad tow? Who'da thunk?

It didn't prevent the lock-out from starting...

Or finishing.

...but sure arrested it once things were about to go critical.

Things had gone way the fuck beyond critical. You got killed.

The weak link appeared to save the glider and I suspect the pilot too.

What "PILOT"? Fuckin' dope on rope.

Does that count?

No way in hell.

01-1225
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7436/13700570583_049b5b7ded_o.png

02-1302
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7117/13700891354_b31d51ed74_o.png

03-1304
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2938/13700558193_0e0946218e_o.png


That's the same emergency release that'll increase the safety of the towing operation...

Donnell Hewett - 1980/12

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation."

...at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Mike Lake - 2014/08/29 09:38:36 UTC

Not really, what saved you was luck. The fact you were "almost pointing vertically down" would suggest you were already well past critical.
I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want to try this again a bit closer to the ground and gamble on the weak-link autosensing your new lower altitude and reacting accordingly.

It's a bit like flying with parachute that is known to open successfully only 'sometimes'. Better than nothing I suppose, except if the parachute goes off accidently a few times a year when you are otherwise having a perfectly safe flight.
I think most would re-examine their parachute strategy and its role as a lifesaver!

07-0520

21-0724

26-0902

34-1209

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Carole Sherrington - 2014/08/29 12:46:52 UTC

It's quite clear that the primary cause of the accident was the pilot's inexperience.

It's quite clear that the primary cause of the "accident" was that the guy on the dangerous end of the line wasn't a fucking pilot. He was a fucking student and a victim of total shit being passed off and sold as instruction.

He is holding the uprights too low for effective control when in the upright position.

There's no such thing as...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

... effective control holding the uprights in the upright position.

He fails to keep the glider pointed at the winch;

That was never a priority in his "training".

...although he makes half-hearted attempts at a left turn correction, it's ineffective because his weight shift is insufficient due to the inability to swing his upper body with his hands so low and that he's allowing his lower body to swivel around the hang point.. Then, "Fear dispels knowledge", occurs and he freezes, not releasing and not weight shifting.

Bullshit. His "instruction" one hundred percent sucked, there was no knowledge, he did what was in the realm of his understanding/capability all the way until impact, and he walked away. And you don't know that he wouldn't have been really fucked up trying if he'd made an effort to find and pry open that cheap piece of shit on his right hip posing as a release.

Meanwhile, the winchman is clearly thinking more of the cable rather than the life of his student. The winchman should have had that broken upright inserted into a suitable orifice....for starters.

Right after the permanent revocations of all of his ratings.

I'm guessing that this pilot was doing his elementary training straight off the winch rather than off a slope.

It's WISCONSIN. Duh.

Certainly, the pilot didn't seem to be at H1 or Elementary standard, and if that's really the case then he was being launched out of his zone of ability. IMHO

In your humble OPINION?

Brian Scharp - 2014/08/29 14:45:35 UTC

You should be able to tow up a sack of potatoes.

Nope. Roll instability. This guy WAS a sack of potatoes. We saw what happened.

Davis Straub - 2014/08/29 14:50:20 UTC

From the link to the Oz Report forum above: Jim Rooney - "The "purpose" of a weak link is to improve your odds of survival when things go wrong."

Absolutely astounding that anybody's still stupid enough to be quoting that douchebag

Didn't see anything about a weaklink preventing a lockout.

Bullshit. Whenever anyone spews that crap he's talking about lockout prevention.

It obviously didn't prevent one in this case. (He had a "1.5G" weaklink.)

Oh really. So how 'bout showing us your arithmetic on that one.

Davis Link - 130 pounds, feeling half the towline tension - 260 pounds. Flying weight therefore must be 173 pounds. That's a little better than half my flying weight - motherfucker.

Brian Scharp - 2014/08/29 15:23:34 UTC

Is the weak link strength known for this case?

Wills Wing - Scooter Tow Resources
http://www.willswing.com/learn/scooterTow/#video

Steve Wendt - 08:26

But with the towline we would use a standard weak link like we would for aerotow... Uh... This... In this particular case it's 130 greenline, 130 pound test.

Mike Lake - 2014/08/29 15:41:10 UTC

Are you implying (or do you think) that the 1.5G weak-link made a difference?

A lot closer to half that.

Brian Scharp - 2014/08/29 16:24:04 UTC

Joe's observations from:
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35257

Your control loss seems consistent with the bridle pushing against the right front flying wire. Trying to get out of a left turn might not even be possible when... 1) the right wing is being lifted from the nose wire; 2) when the high wing is under a large load and the glider is not allowed to adverse yaw to the left to allow a right turn, and 3) when the pilot is restricted from lowering the angle of attack because the nose is being lifted near the nose plate.

Joe's a total fucking moron. He doesn't have the slightest clue what's going on with that one.

Davis Straub - 2014/08/29 17:23:59 UTC

I'm not implying anything about the weaklink strength other than the weaklink didn't prevent a lock out.

Go...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

For many years a number of us (US pilots) have felt that #8 bricklayers nylon line was not an appropriate material to use for weaklinks as it is not as consistent in its breaking strength (as far as we are concerned) as the Greenspot line used in the US. At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.

...figure.

Davis Straub - 2014/08/29 17:26:54 UTC

I thought that I had made it clear that I want weaklinks and I want weaklinks to break to save the pilot's bacon.

And I want weak links to predict winners at the track. And I'm gonna get what I want out of weak links at exactly the same rate that you're gonna get what you want out of weak links. The only difference is that when my weak links fail to meet my expectations I won't be leaving the scene in a body bag.

I have also stated that you can not count on weaklinks to break in a lockout.

Fuck you, Davis. ANY weak link WILL *EVENTUALLY* break in a lockout - assuming you don't hit the ground first.

I have stated...

Anything and everything that's ever suited your twisted purposes at the time.

...that weaklinks don't prevent lockouts, and we again have plenty of documentary proof of this.

So can you think of anything that CAN be totally counted on to terminate a lockout at the earliest possible instant?

01-1225
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7436/13700570583_049b5b7ded_o.png

02-1302
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7117/13700891354_b31d51ed74_o.png

03-1304
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2938/13700558193_0e0946218e_o.png

25-32016
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5548/14306846174_185f09082e_o.png


http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5530/14120804830_2aabd74d25_o.png
09-10817

[<BS>]

Nope. Roll instability. This guy WAS a sack of potatoes. We saw what happened.

Exactly, the weak link didn't prevent his lockout either.

-if you get too far off heading, and a lockout begins to develop, a proper weak link will break and release you from tow.

[Steve Davy]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Davis Straub - 2014/08/29 14:50:20 UTC

It obviously didn't prevent one in this case. (He had a "1.5G" weaklink.)

I think Davis is referring to the Clown in "The student on tow" video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn4cTQH743E

[<BS>]

Davis Straub - 2014/08/29 14:50:20 UTC

It obviously didn't prevent one in this case. (He had a "1.5G" weaklink.)

I think Davis is referring to the Clown in "The student on tow" video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn4cTQH743E

Yes, in that case the number was mentioned in the link.
In this case I hadn't heard any numbers mentioned, and wanted to know. An answer is above. Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pkB7GIxTUU

[Tad Eareckson]

Yeah, should've picked up on that.

Three excuses...

- I get tired of carefully reading and analyzing posts of assholes whose sole purposes are to confuse and obfuscate.

- A couple of years ago the Towing Committee declared all Davis Links to put all gliders at one and a half Gs - up a third from when 1.0 was the ideal pitch and lockout protector.

- I'm very very very sick. Got a flu shot at my doctor's appointment half past Wednesday and almost IMMEDIATELY started crashing. Regular cough got a lot worse, throat sore from coughing a lot harder and more frequently, paralyzing headache, chills, fever cycling up to 103. Not really blaming the shot but I wonder if it triggered/catalyzed something else.

[<BS>]

Three excuses...

No need, get well.

[Steve Davy]

I want you to be taking good care of yourself now, Tad. Get well, and get well soon.

P.S. And I don't want to see you logged in here until you're feeling a lot better.