Skyting demolition

[Tad Eareckson]

Thanks. But if I don't log in every now and then the boredom will drive me a lot insaner a lot faster.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Davis Straub - 2014/08/29 14:50:20 UTC

From the link to the Oz Report forum above: Jim Rooney - "The "purpose" of a weak link is to improve your odds of survival when things go wrong."

So how come Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney isn't over on the Davis Show, where he's still a highly respected and valued participant, commenting on this thread, setting all of us muppets straight, explaining how after those hundreds of thousands of tows worth of trail and error to zero in on the single loop of 130 pound Greenspot as the perfect solo aerotow weak link all the sudden people are deciding they're happy with 200?

Didn't see anything about a weaklink preventing a lockout.

Name some things that can go wrong with a tow that can be defused by a weak link? If weak links don't do shit for low level lockout protection then what are they doing for us?

It obviously didn't prevent one in this case. (He had a "1.5G" weaklink.)

Revised take here...

The implication being that things would've gotten much less ugly with a nice safe Rooney Link. So...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death

Davis Straub - 2005/10/15 05:50:52 UTC

In the pre-Worlds in Forbes, NSW, Australia in the late nineties, those of us flying the Icaro 2000 Laminars got them just before the meet began after we has been in the country for a while. I had been flying a Moyes Extra Light, king posted glider.

On the first day towing the Laminar I believe I had nine tows, but maybe it was only seven. During those terrible tows I had at least three barrel rolls.

...what was it that you were using that permitted those barrel rolls? How come it didn't break when it was supposed to?

Mike Lake - 2014/08/29 15:41:10 UTC

Are you implying (or do you think) that the 1.5G weak-link made a difference?

Of course. If the glider flies into a barn forty miles away from the airport it was because the guy was using a 1.5 G Tad-O-Link.

Davis Straub - 2014/08/29 17:23:59 UTC

I'm not implying anything about the weaklink strength other than the weaklink didn't prevent a lock out.

But it probably would have if it had been a nice safe Davis Link. Fuck you, Davis. There were the usual idiot responses from the usual douchebags - Rooney, Cragin, Oakdude, Bill Cummings, Tormod Helgesen - which you allowed to stand totally unchallenged. Don't tell me you're not implying that weak links are good lockout protectors.

Davis Straub - 2014/08/29 17:26:54 UTC

I thought that I had made it clear...

Since when did you develop an interest in making things CLEAR? You won't even tell us what weak links you're mandating for the Nationals and what your "thinking" is behind the mystery number.

...that I want weaklinks and I want weaklinks to break to save the pilot's bacon.

What if the pilot doesn't have any bacon? How do they work for spinach?

I have also stated that you can not count on weaklinks to break in a lockout.

Sounds like a pretty crappy bacon saver to me. I don't like flying with stuff which can override my decision to stay on tow because it MIGHT work to save my "bacon".

I fly with a parachute. In a situation that requires its use it MIGHT work to keep me alive but the probability of it doing so is so crappy that I know I've gotta act like a goddam PILOT and not get into parachute situations. And that thing doesn't come out until/unless I tell it to. If there were a one in ten thousand chance that it would I wouldn't fly with one - 'specially after reading a few drowned-in-the-river / fried-in-the-powerlines fatality reports.

I have stated that weaklinks don't prevent lockouts, and we again have plenty of documentary proof of this.

What's your fuckin' point then? Just to hear yourself babble while you're pretending to be profound?

michael170 - 2014/08/30 10:55:30 UTC

A fine example of a weak link break saving a pilot's bacon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


Just imagine what could have happened if this guy had not had his bacon saved by what Davis wants.

We don't have to. Motherfucker would've locked out and died. We know from Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney that the purpose of the weak link is to increase the safety of the towing operation, PERIOD, so, without that increase, things would've been unimaginably ugly - by definition. Lucky he just got his arm broken in four places.

AndRand - 2014/08/30 10:59:48 UTC

Up on downtubes=push out with this height and airspeed???

Yeah, that's just fuckin' CRAZY! So...

- Who the hell trained/qualified him, signed him off?

- Why didn't this operation dolly launch him? Maybe he hadn't had time to develop prone, both-hands-on-the-basetube flying skills?

- How 'bout this:

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus


tandem aerotow instructor? Somebody quote me somebody calling him a douchebag. Is it OK as long as you pull out with the grass ringing your basetube?

An example of bad reactions - I would say better reactions save your bacon, weak-link is subsidiary. With better glider it could be much worse.

You mean like THIS:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


glider? So how come nobody ever alleged any deficiency in reactions for that guy at any point in his flying career - including that one?

- You're saying that this "weak link" only increases the safety of the towing operation for pilots who are doing things perfectly. And if you're not it can fuck you up bigtime. Doesn't that seem a bit backwards to you? Aren't all of our other "safety devices" - wheels, helmets, knee pads, gloves, parachutes - pretty much exclusively geared for fuckups?

Davis Straub - 2014/08/30 13:43:09 UTC

Who is Michael arguing with? Not me.

He's not arguing with you, Davis. There's really no way you can argue with some asshole who brings bacon into a discussion about weak links. The mission here is to humiliate, degrade, destroy you and eliminate you as at threat to hang gliding.

Is he really this clueless or deprived of social skills?

Probably...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25015
Zippy pounds in

Davis Straub - 2011/09/02 18:37:09 UTC

Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.

...had a lot of concussions in ninth grade football - but not the kind that changes your wiring for the better.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Carole Sherrington - 2014/08/29 12:46:52 UTC

Brian Scharp - 2014/08/29 14:45:35 UTC

You should be able to tow up a sack of potatoes.

So, what you're saying is that the pilot has less capability than a sack of potatoes?

This had precisely the same. But he was no way in hell any sort of pilot he was a student/victim of a really crappy operation - same one which fatally crashed a crop duster pilot in dead morning conditions five years ago yesterday.

The whole method of chest-mounted towlines came about because of the known directional stability issues using glider attached lines.

So far, fair enough.

It was believed, probably correctly...

Fuck BELIEFS and PROBABLIES. This is simple high school physics. Crunch the vectors, we know EXACTLY how the glider will respond and why.

...that having the line attached to the pilot improved initial stability...

Bullshit.
- It SUBSTANTIALLY *DECREASED* INstability - but a towed hang glider will ALWAYS be dangerously unstable.
- "INITIAL" stability? The system's either stable or it isn't.

...because any small displacement away from heading would cause the pilot to be weight shifted in a corrective manner.

Total fucking rot. If that had the least bit of validity then heels here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5dhm3TnwIU


would've been able to fly the tow hands off. But she stays clamped down on the basetube (with BOTH hands) and is almost CONSTANTLY executing short, fast, decisive, authoritative, substantial roll inputs to compensate for the roll instability. And can you envision what would happen if she doped off for a couple seconds?

A towline/bridle pull in any possible direction does the PRECISE OPPOSITE of what happens when the pilot displacement occurs as a consequence of pilot control input/effort (differential wire tension).

Compare/Contrast her control inputs when she's coming back down through the same air. (And imagine her holding the bar back a bit to achieve her towing airspeed to make things fair.)

However, once an angle of bank has developed and a heading away from the tow direction has set in, the rolling torque applied by the line tension, acting on the increased moment arm of a pilot in prone soon exceeds the rolling torque possible from weight shift...

Total bullshit. And if it WEREN'T total bullshit... Great stability system! Only works when you don't need it too!

...and THE ONLY way to recover is to have the tension of the towline removed...

AND, let's not forget, have plenty of air between you and the runway - a point perpetually beyond the grasp of bacon saver advocates.

...usually by releasing at the pilot end or the tug end.

That would be the tug end. The back end guys just use releases that only work when they don't need them to.

Very occasionally, the pilot can pull in, overfly the towline and thereby remove enough tension to be able to roll back onto heading.

Not on aero.

But if that goes pear-shaped then you've just got more speed to hurt yourself with.

How does that go so pear shaped that a good reserve of airspeed is a BAD thing?

As for a weak link saving the guy in question, well I think you're being argumentative for its own sake.

What?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Mike Lake - 2014/09/01 14:15:32 UTC

Davis Straub - 2014/08/29 17:23:59 UTC

I'm not implying anything about the weaklink strength other than the weaklink didn't prevent a lock out.

I did say:
"Are you implying (or do you think)..."

Reading the Oz thread in question.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35257
The student on tow
The 1.5G weak link is portrayed as bad and in some way responsible.

Do you think a 1.5G weak-link ok? Are you happy to fly with that value?

Don Arsenault - 2014/09/01 14:16:48 UTC

High tension winch towing is different then aerotowing, or truck towing.

High tension ANYTHING towing...

Jerry Forburger - 1990/10

High line tensions reduce the pilot's ability to control the glider and we all know that the killer "lockout" is caused by high towline tension.

...is a guaranteed killer lockout. That's why you always need to use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less.

There should be no weight shifting...

Yeah, autocorrecting. You'll find your tows will be much more problem free if you keep your hands off the bar.

...& you will definitely never over fly the tow line. Weight shifting on tow causes wild oscillations...

Overcontrol causes oscillations.

...while still moving in the direction of tow, that is until you cause a lockout.

Any chance a thermal blast can put you into a lockout?

On a smooth day, towing up a sack of potatoes is probably easier then a student. Potatoes don't tense up, weight shift, etc. fighting the tow.

Put a sack of potatoes and a GoPro on your glider and get back to us.

Mike Lake - 2014/09/01 14:50:31 UTC

Well I can say with some confidence that had this been me with a dopey winch-man and few options to release this particular sack of potatoes would be weight shifting for all he was worth.

Well yeah, but you didn't train under Mike Dead-Eye Robertson.

Don Arsenault - 2014/09/01 15:17:48 UTC

I'll steer the glider by moving the tow point, when the tension forces are greater than my body weight, and weight shift when they are less.
Yes, the winch man should have released tension, but sometimes stuff happens, after all winches are mechanical, and have mechanical issues, & they are operated by humans, who make mistakes on occasion.

Bullshit.
- Nobody's ever been slammed in because an evil winch just kept winding line.
- This "student", for the purpose of the exercise, was killed. And not as a consequence of a driver making "A MISTAKE".

Total incompetence/negligence. And what do you think about the fact that this thread is currently doing 75 posts and 3935 hits and nobody's heard a single word from Whitewater?

The pilot...

The WHAT?

...in control...

In WHAT?

...had lots of opportunity to release...

Bullshit. Whoever put him up on that crap should be shot.

...before the line ever jumped his wheel.

If he'd had any pretense of training for that exercise the line would've stayed centered the whole time.

I saw a pilot who simply froze.

Fuck you. He was reacting to the situation as best as he knew how all the way to impact.

Perhaps he should still be flying with a radio.

Perhaps he should've been taught to fly before he was sent up to fly.

A firm RELEASE, RELEASE, RELEASE! over the radio prob would have snapped him out of it.

Snapped him out of WHAT? That's about the most active frozen stiff I've seen in my entire life. Wanna talk about freezing how 'bout we take a look at the highly qualified professional operator at the OTHER end of the line.

I think...

DON'T. Thinking is an endeavor in which you're never gonna come out ahead.

...the main lesson here is not weight shifting, or weak links, it is that You, the pilot are the one in CONTROL.

Yes. You, The Pilot, are All Powerful. Mother Nature and tow forces tremble in your very presence.

If things start to go wrong on tow.... RELEASE!! That is in your control. It should be ur first priority!

Keep writing, Don. The more useless moronic drivel you spew on The Jack Show the better the hit counters over here are gonna look.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Davis Straub - 2014/09/01 15:22:41 UTC

Mike Lake - 2014/09/01 14:15:32 UTC

Do you think a 1.5G weak-link ok? Are you happy to fly with that value?

I have no idea.

Whoa! I'da thunk some arrogant douchebag who runs around all over the planet dictating what other people will fly would've had at least SOMETHING of an idea.

I can tell you that I fly with a 200lb weaklink on one side of my 750lb pro tow bridle.

You've got two hundred pound weak link. Who gives a flying fuck what your crappy pro toad bridle will hold?

I am happy with it.

How happy? How do the blow jobs you get from this fishing line compare to the ones you get from Paraglider Collapse?

I feel that my 140lb...

DO NOT let this motherfucker get away with rewriting history. It's goddam 130. By calling it 140 he makes himself look fourteen percent less of a lying asshole than he is.

...weaklink was too weak (broke too easily in circumstances where a weaklink break wasn't necessary to protect me).

Did you write that ass covering bullshit all by yourself or did you have USHGA's attorney do it for you?

I don't understand, Davis...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

Less than eighteen months ago you were HAPPY with 130. Really hard for me to believe that somebody who's spent most of his adult life aerotowing could've made a jump like that.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25015
Zippy pounds in

Davis Straub - 2011/09/02 18:37:09 UTC

Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.

Have anything comparable going on when you're doing shoe sizes?

What I want, of course, is a weaklink that breaks only when needed.

Meaning any time you're in an emergency situation - 'cause you have ZERO chance of prying your cheap bent pin crap open in a situation that requires you to be flying the glider.

I believe that there is a picture here of me showing where it is needed.

Yeah, here it is:


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


Wouldn't most SANE people have a much more conservative definition of "when needed"? Me personally... I'd have gone with something prior to the first frame. If it had only broken at the point at which I'd powerwhacked, torn my lip open, and narrowly missed breaking my fucking neck by centerpunching the keel with my helmet I'd have considered that it only broken way the fuck AFTER it was NEEDED.

But hey...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15716
weak links

Davis Straub - 2009/04/26 22:05:31 UTC

Tad obviously completely lacks social intelligence and probably a few other forms of intelligence. Also, he obviously has other mental health issues.

That's probably just me.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Brad Barkley - 2014/09/01 15:36:00 UTC

Mike Lake - 2014/08/26 14:43:32 UTC

Just to clarify a couple of points...

Understood. I took it as a given that if you are maintaining proper position , there will be no lockout.

Yep. Just stay in the center of that Cone of Safety, the way you were taught...

08-1806

09-1927

10-2017

11-2201

15-2421

17-2601


You'll be fine.

Brian Scharp - 2014/09/01 15:40:07 UTC

Carole Sherrington - 2014/08/29 12:46:52 UTC

So, what you're saying is that the pilot has less capability than a sack of potatoes?

No, I'm saying that if this statement were true, you could tow up a sack of potatoes until the weak link broke at the beginning of a lockout. This statement doesn't seem legit unless you define - begins to develop - as possibly never.

HANG GLIDING FOR BEGINNER PILOTS
By Peter Cheney
Published by Matt Taber
Official Flight Training Manual of the U. S. Hang Gliding Association

-if you get too far off heading, and a lockout begins to develop, a proper weak link will break and release you from tow.

The pilot should be more capable - of preventing a lockout - than a sack of potatoes. If you can't make a weak link - weak enough - to prevent a lockout...

You CAN - EASILY - by making it too weak to get the glider airborne, but that would be monumentally stupid. In the monumentally stupid AND insanely dangerous division using a weak link JUST BARELY capable of getting the glider airborne in order to try to use it as a pitch and lockout protector / emergency release has gotta take the cake.

...it's the function of the release.

The function of the vast majority of hang gliding towing releases is for the operator to be able to write "made no attempt to release, just froze" in the fatality report.

Mike Lake - 2014/09/01 16:05:54 UTC

The winch-man has at least equal...

...in this case, TOTAL...

...responsibility, after all, he has the throttle and the brake while the pilot has a (very small) steering wheel.

And no realistic possibility of releasing. But let's keep beating up on the guy anyway 'cause that'll make us all feel infinitely superior.

The pilot is NOT solely in control it's a team thing.

In which one team member can be killed by the other's incompetence/negligence in a heartbeat and the other team member is never at the slightest risk of being scratched and will be the expert talking to the cops and press and submitting the fatality report.

It is also a fact there are plenty of occasions when the winch-man is in a SUPERIOR position to avoid disaster because of his ability to EASE tension and not instantly kill it, as would be the case with a release (from either end).

Let's not forget the focal point of the safe towing system.

It is true winch-men are only human but then so is my bus driver and I don't expect him to drive me over a cliff edge too often!

For bus drivers we have standards, accountability, prosecutions.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Davis Straub - 2014/09/01 20:34:14 UTC

http://ozreport.com/3.050
Aerotowing in Australia

Yeah, the Dynamic flight crap.

Light weak links are dangerous as hell and are fuckin' useless as lockout protection so I fly at one and a half Gs. But use a standard weak link as a lockout protector anyway. Fuck those assholes.

Check out the whole article.

Yeah, Davis is in deep shit so he's using one of his usual tricks: Copy and paste a bunch of crap in into the discussion to conceal the fact that he's not actually saying anything.

DO NOT let this motherfucker get away with ANYTHING.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Mike Lake - 2014/09/02 00:20:27 UTC

Well, that clears it up for me.

Weak-links DO NOT prevent lockouts but may or may not break before the glider crashes into the ground, and even then you might already be upside down.

A weak-link break at any time CAN be a dangerous thing - as opposed to being a "non event", something a pilot should always be able to handle. If not, his flying skills can only be shit and he should stick to Monopoly.

Something more than a 1G weak-link is NOT a automatic recipe for disaster, in fact one 50% stronger offers advantages, not the least more flying time and cleaner underwear.

Welcome to the club of "loons", "weekend warriors", "strong link" idiots, "woodwork crawlers" and people who cannot possibility know shit because they do some other job in between flying days.
It is possible you don't qualify for all of the above?

Well, I'm still a bit confused. Davis first refers us to the wisdom of Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney:

Davis Straub - 2014/08/29 14:50:20 UTC

From the link to the Oz Report forum above: Jim Rooney - "The "purpose" of a weak link is to improve your odds of survival when things go wrong."

and then to the Dynamic Flight article - of which Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney states:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 08:34:12 UTC

Yeah, I've read that drivel before.
It's a load of shit.

But when Lord Jim makes that proclamation Davis allows it to stand without comment.

Pin the motherfucker down on something solid. Ask him what his point was in posting the article.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 23:18:54 UTC

Naw... You want me to make bold black and white statements so that you can have a go.
Unfortunately that's not what you're getting.
Some people listen with the intent of understanding.

Others do so with the intent of responding.

That's how these fuckin' parasites operate. Start forcing this one to write a sentence about weak links without using either of the terms "happy" or "bacon".

And get him to thank Paraglider Collapse for the blow job. I'm thinking PCs feelings must be seriously hurting at this point.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Davis Straub - 2014/09/02 01:36:33 UTC

The article was written in April, 1999.

1999? FASCINATING! So what's your fuckin' point? Has there been some fundamental change in the physics of towing hang gliders that's occurred in these past fifteen years? Or is it just some sort of shift regarding happiness amongst flyers?

michael170 - 2014/09/02 06:20:35 UTC

Davis Straub - 2014/09/01 20:34:14 UTC

http://ozreport.com/3.050
Aerotowing in Australia

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Davis Straub - 2014/08/20 13:47:27 UTC

I suggest reading Jim Rooney's posts.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 08:34:12 UTC

Yeah, I've read that drivel before.
It's a load of shit.

Jim Rooney says it's a load of shit. So why are you posting a load of shit here, Davis?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Tim Dyer - 2014/09/02 19:55:36 UTC

This being said it is still far preferable to use low tow tension, headwind launch, and a standard weak link.

The last sentence says a lot...

Sure does. Reveals Doctor James Freeman to be a total goddam douchebag. Pretty much totally contradicts everything else he's said - which was right. Sleazy cop-out to Hewett and The Industry.

...but should add "a wench man/woman you trust with your life".

I don't think there's such a thing as a wench man.

Talked to my doctor early this afternoon. I was beginning to suspect pneumonia and that was also his take. Go in tomorrow. I think/hope that it's bacterial and can be treated with antibiotics. (Sorry, nice microbes.)