instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24691
Landing on wheels

Al Hernandez - 2011/08/10 02:56:44 UTC

I land just fine. Flare or running it out is not a problem for me. The T2 154, which will be my next glider, may be another story. I may have to put it on wheels - it would be crazy not to have them. Since I will be on the heavy side, I will be coming in way too fast.

Hook-in weight - 185-285. I'm 285, add 30 pounds for the harness and parachute.

They don't make a topless for XL pilots and this was closest I could find for a high performance wing. I know I will come in fast because I flew a 170 Wills Wing that came in like a rocket with me on it in no wind conditions.

AL Hernandez - 2011/08/10 23:04:51 UTC

Mason (three-string) Release with a 600 pound weak link.

So we know his flying weight - after a seventy pound glider is thrown in - is about 385. Six hundred pound weak link - 1.56 Gs, almost half a G under the USHGA/FAA upper limit for aerotowed hang gliders and 0.16 Gs beyond the midpoint of the FAA's range specified for sailplanes.

Gerry Grossnegger - 2011/08/11 02:51:50 UTC

That's two or three times the strength you should be using! You'd better check that.

But Gerry wants to keep him REALLY safe by keeping him between 0.52 and 0.78 - both short of the FAA's minimum for sailplanes.

General guidelines is to use a "1G" weak link, with a breaking strength roughly equal to your all-up weight - you, glider, harness, etc.

Well yeah, Gerry. You sure don't wanna go against "General Guidelines" 'cause if there weren't a really good reason behind them they wouldn't be General Guidelines.

When we platform tow in rough air, and the consequences of a weak link break aren't great, we go as far as a 300 pound weak link. (Yeah, I know, bad!) But not double that!

- Who's "we", what does we weigh, and what's the maximum certified flying weight of we's glider?
- I fly at 320 pounds - so I'm still not up to General Guidelines.
- Don't you actually want your lockout protector to be LIGHTER in rough air 'cause in rough air you're more likely to lockout?
- How great are the consequences of a weak link break in smooth air?
- You're on a PAYOUT winch. How much does the goddam weak link matter anyway?
- Idiot.

Zack C - 2011/08/13 03:23:51 UTC

Just about all of us here in Houston use 600 pound weak links.

The purpose of the weak link is to prevent structural failure of the glider.

NO WAY!!!

The purpose of the weak link is to automatically release the glider from the tow line whenever the tow line tension exceeds the limits of safe operation.

In says so right in the HPAC's Towing Procedures Manual - which Gerry compiled and maintains. So HE'D be the one to know, right?

Two hundred pounds - VERY safe; three - bad, but a necessary evil in rough air 'cause the consequences of a weak link break aren't great in rough air; six - certain and instant DEATH. Just plain common sense.

A glider is not in danger of failing with a 600 pound weak link. The group here has been towing with these for decades and has never seen a structural failure.

Well yeah, but you can seriously lock out.

Why is a 1 G weak link recommended?

It just IS, OK?

http://hpac.ca/tow/HPAC_Tow_Manual.asp

Has been for thirty years. It automatically releases the glider from the tow line whenever the tow line tension exceeds the limits of safe operation. How difficult is that to understand?

We use stronger mainly because a weak link break at the wrong time can cause a stall near the ground.

Thanks goes to all contributors, especially:

Peter Birren (President of Reel Hang Glider Pilots Association and inventor of the Linknife Towing Release)
Don Hewett (Criteria for Safe and Efficient Towing)
Barry Morwick (Adventure At Altitude)
Michael Robertson (High Perspective Hang Gliding & Paragliding)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4593
Weaklinks

Peter Birren - 2005/02/08 19:22:49 UTC

What is the big issue? Re-launching? Oh, the wasted time! Oh, the hassle! Oh, the embarrassment! These are sure preferrable to Oh Shit!

And then the Davis Show thread goes instantly and permanently silent. 'Cause if ANYBODY says ANYTHING he's gonna look like the idiot he is and leave himself open to being cut to shreds. But General Guidelines are still gonna be to use a one G weak link. That'll NEVER change.

Subj: AT SOPs - proposed revisions
Date: 2009/03/04 17:22:24 UTC
From: Gerry@Scare.ca
To:-- TadErcksn

Can you send me a complete copy of the latest version?

I assume you don't mind if I use all or some of it in the Towing Procedures Manual, with credit of course?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20110723X95952&key=1

National Transportation Safety Board - 2011/08/02

NTSB Identification: ERA11FA413
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Saturday, July 23, 2011 in Ridgely, MD
Aircraft: MOYES DRAGONFLY, registration: N402HA
Injuries: 1 Fatal.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On July 23, 2011, about 0715 eastern daylight time, a Moyes Dragonfly airplane, N402HA, operated by Highland Aerosports, was substantially damaged when it impacted terrain at Ridgely Airpark (RJD), Ridgely, Maryland. The pilot was fatally injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 glider tow flight.

According to a flight instructor who was towed aloft by the airplane with his student in a tandem configured hang glider, it was "hot and sticky" that morning and he had briefed his student prior to the flight that it would take a longer ground roll than normal to takeoff. After they took off in tow, the flight instructor climbed the glider up to an altitude of about 15 feet above ground level (agl) behind the airplane. During the tow he observed that the airplane did not lift off until it was near the end of the grass runway. As the airplane reached the end of the runway, he saw the towline "release" from the airplane. He also observed that as the airplane reached an adjacent soybean field, that the airplane was "tickling the beans with its wheels". The flight instructor then continued straight ahead and executed a landing to that same soybean field. Then as he and his student were getting out of their harnesses. He heard the airplane above him. It was "really loud" and he wondered what the pilot was doing. Moments later he heard the airplane impact the ground behind him.

According to a witness, after the release, the airplane began to turn left while climbing until it had completed a 270 degree turn, and reached a peak altitude of approximately 200 feet agl. It then "dropped into a spin" and impacted the ground in an approximately 45 degree nose down attitude.

Examination of the airplane did not reveal any preimpact failures or anomalies with the airplane's engine or flight control system.

Instrumentation and portions of the airplane's structure were retained by the Safety Board for further examination.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/article_f4d66098-b7a6-11e0-818a-001a4bcf6878.html

2011/07/27

After releasing the glider, Nenninger banked the plane and it stalled and crashed.

Wrong.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/article_f4d66098-b7a6-11e0-818a-001a4bcf6878.html

2011/07/28

She turned around to check on the glider and her plane stalled, he said.

Wrong.

The pilot...

Keavy Nenninger

According to a flight instructor...

Whose name we still don't know.

During the tow he observed that the airplane did not lift off until it was near the end of the grass runway.

But the glider got airborne as normal/expected so we've got normal thrust / engine power / propeller function.
So an elevator control problem? Which is controlled by the stick which also controls the ailerons?

As the airplane reached the end of the runway, he saw the towline "release" from the airplane.

And at this point she definitely knows she's got a problem.

He also observed that as the airplane reached an adjacent soybean field, that the airplane was "tickling the beans with its wheels".

And so does the "flight instructor".

It was "really loud"...

Still got power/thrust.

...and he wondered what the pilot was doing.

Gaining as much altitude as possible for options for dealing with her crippled plane.

...and reached a peak altitude of approximately 200 feet agl.

Plenty high enough for the parachute.

It then "dropped into a spin"...

Control system failure.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4979
Very sad news from Ridgely : Keavy Nenninger

Ward Odenwald - 2011/07/25 02:53:43 UTC

When she wasn't towing us aloft, she was making sure that we had a safe start.

Did she make sure everybody:
- had the Quallaby release lever snugly velcroed to the starboard downtube?
- had replaced Versions 1.0 and 2.0 Lockout Releases with 2.1?
- knew the best way to pry open a Ridgely bent pin backup release and had a hook knife for when the pin folded in half?
- had a secondary bridle which wouldn't wrap at bottom of the primary?
- flew two point?
- understood the danger of releasing from the bottom first?
- understood that a weak link failure or premature release could be immediately fatal?
- had a nice fresh loop of 130 pound Greenspot on the end of his or her one or two point bridle?
- used weak links above and below and left and right of the tow ring?
- understood the purpose of the weak link?
- would always get away from the tug without the towline by keeping her weak link a hundred pounds over the glider's?
- could blow tow with BOTH hands on the basetube at all times?
- flew with wheels?
- knew enough to never get behind a Dragonfly with Rooney at the controls?

Just kidding.

[Zack C]

It is impossible to spot a rabbit hole, hard bump or rock etc. until passed the point of no return...

- Yeah, TOTALLY impossible. At 25 miles per hour groundspeed everything's just a blur - and the colors are all blue shifted because of the Doppler effect.

I think he has a point. I've nearly put my foot into rabbit holes just walking because I didn't notice them until I was practically over them.

Was Henry's son [...] deliberately rolling in with his hands on the basetube or rolling after blowing a foot landing attempt with his hands on the downtubes?

He was flying tandem with his hands on the basetube for an intentional wheel landing. The glider was equipped with large castering wheels typical for tandem gliders. The wheel didn't actually hit a hole...it hit a large ant hill...but I doubt it would have made much difference. He broke a wrist in the crash. The instructor was unharmed. Not sure about glider damage...I know the wheel that hit was sheared off. I actually have this incident on video (password = 'red', jump to 1:43 (sorry, don't have time to re-render/upload just the relevant part)):

http://vimeo.com/12402087

As long as you don't get hurt worse in the practice than you would have - minus the practice - in the sticky situation for which you were practicing.

I think that threat can be reasonably mitigated with decent wheels.

Some irony I'm sure you'll appreciate...one of the guys espousing foot landings in this discussion suffered a shoulder separation in a bad landing not long after this discussion. He doesn't fly with wheels.

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

I've nearly put my foot into rabbit holes just walking because I didn't notice them until I was practically over them.

OK, and I guess I'd rather be on foot than rolling if I were about to find one. But...

- I used to make a habit of landing in cow pastures 'cause I knew that I wasn't gonna hurt anything the cows hadn't already and the grass always short cropped, the visibility was good, and I never found anything more problematic than a fresh pie.

- If the grass is high enough to conceal something the something might not be your biggest problem.

- An intent to land on one's feet is no guarantee that one will.

- How hard is it to find something safely wheel landable on a typical XC?

He was flying tandem with his hands on the basetube for an intentional wheel landing.

I might well have broken a wrist in that situation myself but I'm guessing it was no longer terribly important for him to have his hand on anything at that point.

I think that threat can be reasonably mitigated with decent wheels.

So do I. But I also think you're gonna take out more downtubes in the long run.

Some irony I'm sure you'll appreciate...

Tell him to say hi to Sparky.

He doesn't fly with wheels.

- But I'll bet he uses backup suspension and a locking carabiner.
- Still?

[Tad Eareckson]

He also observed that as the airplane reached an adjacent soybean field, that the airplane was "tickling the beans with its wheels".

And if at this point she had cut power and ditched it's hard to imagine that she and the Dragonfly would've come out in worse shape than the way things turned out after the effort to gain altitude.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Steve Davy - 2011/08/23 08:19:57 UTC

Or is this real?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Lauren Tjaden - 2011/08/01 02:01:06 UTC

In general, the weak link on the glider end will break before the one on the plane. However, my glider's main weak link was wrapped in a huge bunch around the 'biner, therefore it did not break. I also had a secondary weak link on my shoulder (which does not take as much force), but the plane's link broke first. Really, it was just half a second (or less) until the break, and the backups worked as they should.

I just thought it was very interesting the way the line wrapped and thought it was a good reminder for all pilots who aerotow to keep their weak links short.

Also, a tandem weak link is doubled, due to the much greater tow forces on it due to its much greater weight. Technically the tow plane's weak link will break sooner than the tandem's will. Of course what happens in reality is not exactly what happens in principle -- though it WAS what happened in this case.

Had the plane's weak link not broken, I would have been left towing from my shoulders, which would have been okay. I could have released from my barrel release on my shoulders or Paul could have given me the rope. Had all else failed, I could have used my hook knife.

For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.

I rarely break weak links -- in fact, I believe the last one was some two years ago, and I have never broken one on a tandem (probably because I am light and also because I change them whenever they show any signs of wear). They are a good thing to have, though!!

This was a tandem flight! Is this how far we have come?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/23 13:25:00 UTC

And what is your issue?

Yeah, Rodent. This is Quest, Quest has perfected aerotowing, so what's your point?

Steve Davy - 2011/08/24 04:59:08 UTC

Issues, plural.

A TANDEM instructor writes:

For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.

Is that how it works? Is that what it says on the written test?

...but the plane's link broke first.

Why?

Paul could have given me the rope.

You got the rope anyway.

I rarely break weak links -- in fact, I believe the last one was some two years ago, and I have never broken one on a tandem.

Wasn't this a tandem flight?

I could have used my hook knife.

Jesus Christ!

Jim Gaar - 2011/08/24 16:18:17 UTC

Not sure what your issue is.

Jeez, Jim. I thought you were always dead sure of everything.

Not a joke, very real.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/24 16:26:09 UTC

Ridgerodent

Either you're new to this towing thing or you're trolling.

Yeah Rodent. You're questioning why a perfect aerotow operation uses a weak link which welds itself to the tow ring and pulls 250 feet of Spectra off the tug. Obviously you're new to towing 'cause you haven't gotten used to the way stupid dangerous incidents happen with a regularity that would drive Big Ben mad with envy.

The weather's bad here, so I'll have a go at this one (for now)...

Great Jim. As soon as Rodent or anyone else asks you a question that'll make you look like the stupid asshole you are if you answer it, you can pretend the weather just got nice and walk out of the conversation - the way you always do.

Is that how it works? Is that what it says on the written test?

Would you like to propose otherwise?

Dynamic Flight - 2005

The purpose of a weak link is solely to prevent the tow force from increasing to a point that the glider can be stressed close to or beyond its structural limits. Lockouts can and do occur without increasing tow tension up until the point where the glider is radically diverging from the direction of tow.

Yes, in fact, this *is* how it works.

- Just not for people like Bill Bennett, Mike Del Signore, Jamie Alexander, Frank Spears, Rob Richardson, Mike Haas, Holly Korzilius, Arlan Birkett, Jeremiah Thompson, Robin Strid, Roy Messing, and Steve Elliot.

- You didn't answer the question about whether that's what it says on the written test.

Why?

Because it did.

Oh really? The glider was in normal position and under normal tension at the top of a normal tow a second before the incident.

Plain and simple. Sometimes the mystic forces of the universe do strange and unusual things.

Yeah, if you violate the regulations and put a lighter weak link on the Dragonfly than you do on the glider sometimes the front weak link blows first. There's just no predicting these things.

You got the rope anyway.

So what?

So nothing - at 2500 feet. So that PROVES that safety regulations JUST DON'T MATTER.

Wasn't this a tandem flight?

Again, so what?
Tandem flights are somehow immune to the forces of physics?

Nah. They're just totally immune to safety regulations.

I don't really get what you're getting at here.

Big freakin' surprise. You don't really get that two plus two equals four.

But continue with the sensational tone and I doubt you're going to get a much more reasoned response.

Sensational tone. Ten year old kid common sense up against the Naked Emperor.
And this is The Davis Show. No way in hell you're gonna get a reasoned response of any kind under any circumstances.

Welcome to towing.

Got that right.

We've been doing this a long time and are quite familiar and comfortable with our processes.

And anybody who isn't can go fuck himself 'cause neither USHGA or the FAA is ever gonna do a goddam thing in the way of safety regulations enforcement.

Be nice and we can discuss it.

Yeah. Just talk about his keen intellect and kiss his ass a lot. He keeps a toilet paper dispenser clipped to his belt for just such occasions.

Be obnoxious and you can piss off.

Your choice.
Jim

My way or the highway. Asshole.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Steve Davy - 2011/08/24 21:49:56 UTC

Placement

Weak links are required at both ends of the tow line. Where bridles are considered extensions of the tow line weak links installed at both ends of the bridles satisfy this requirement.

Relative Strengths

Tow Line

For reasons of safety and convenience it is mandatory that the aft weak link(s) fail first so that the glider is not left with the tow line. A 250 foot tow line with the fore end tow ring trailing from a bridle routed over the basetube presents an absolutely lethal threat to a low flying glider.

Bridles

For the reason given below in the discussion of release actuation sequencing, when weak links are installed at the ends of two point bridles the lower must be at least 20 percent stronger than the upper. For example, when used in conjunction with a 1.4 G upper weak link one of a minimum of 1.68 Gs be employed below the tow ring. In the event that the bridle wraps the then directly loaded lower weak link will translate to slightly less than 1.0 Gs (0.97) and the glider will almost certainly separate even if the starting tension were no greater than normal.

http://energykitesystems.net/Lift/hgh/TadEareckson/ATGuidelines.pdf

Brad Gryder - 2011/08/25 00:04:50 UTC

But in actual practice, especially at a busy flight park, the tug monkey has limited time to maintain his "Master" weak link at 100%, so it will degrade in strength until he finds time to replace it. Same is true for the busy tandem monkey, so it's a statistical game as to when the tug's weak link might eventually fail before the gilder's.

The rear monkey, keen on survival, is aware of this and is ready to accept it (the rope) when it happens.

The Tug Pilot is responsible for his weak link and must manage it accordingly. Same for the other end. They both must be prepared for the worst while hoping for better.

But in actual practice, especially at a busy flight park, the tug monkey has limited time to maintain his "Master" weak link at 100%...

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble

Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.

- Right. At a busy flight park everybody's too busy relaunching gliders because of blown weak links just about every other tow to worry about replacing weak links with stuff that won't blow just about every other tow.

- At a busy flight park somebody can't swap out a weak link while somebody else is refueling?

- How much time, effort, and money does a busy flight park save when a glider has to try to drop the towline back on the runway?

- How much time, effort, and money does a busy flight park save when a glider drops the towline in a cornfield?

Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

- Use only the weak links stipulated in your aircraft TCDS or aircraft manual.

- Checking the cable preamble is mandatory according to SBO (German Gliding Operation Regulations); this includes the inspection of weak links.

- Replace the weak link immediately in the case of visible damage.

- We recommend that the weak link insert are replaced after 200 starts: AN INSERT EXCHANGED IN TIME IS ALWAYS SAFER AND CHEAPER THAN AN ABORTED LAUNCH.

- Always use the protective steel sleeve.

...so it will degrade in strength until he finds time to replace it.

- I fly with a weak link that blows at 473 pounds towline tension - half a G under the USHGA/FAA maximum.
- The tug is supposed to stay a hundred over that - 573 (and let's forget about tandem).
- Normal tow tension between a 914 Dragonfly and me is 125 pounds and I can almost always keep it under 225.
- The tug weak link isn't subjected to abrasion.
- So just how fast and why is it degrading in strength?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

Adi Branch - 2009/07/02 12:50:02 UTC

I have to chirp in on this.. I know I'm a noob and all that, but Tad seems to be talking sense to me. From what I can gather the US has some quite different (dated?) ways of doing things which it appears are not used here in the UK, and some of the reasons I've heard cited for not using these methods relate directly to accidents in the US.

For instance, the idea of tying your own weak link is absolute nuts to me, as is using a bit of string for the job! Over here it's aluminium only (sailplane style link) and if I turned up with a bit of tied string, I'd be shown the exit road.

- So use a Tost reserve insert so if the primary blows it doesn't matter.

Same is true for the busy tandem monkey, so it's a statistical game as to when the tug's weak link might eventually fail before the gilder's.

Yep, strictly a game of chance. You pay for your lift ticket, spin the cylinder, put the muzzle to the side of your head, and pull the trigger. It's not like you can expect anybody at a busy flight park to do his job, be concerned with your safety, and adhere to regulations.

The rear monkey, keen on survival, is aware of this and is ready to accept it (the rope) when it happens.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/13 19:47:26 UTC

The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.

Fer sure.

The Tug Pilot is responsible for his weak link and must manage it accordingly.

Wow. "Tug Pilot", "responsible", and "must" all in the same sentence. I don't think I've ever seen that before.

Same for the other end.

If the tug starts off with a weak link lighter than the glider's, how the hell is it possible for the glider to manage anything?

They both must be prepared for the worst while hoping for better.

Got news for ya, Brad. You combine a Mother Nature worst with tug driver negligence and in doesn't matter how well the glider is prepared. He's screwed so bad the only thing he can hope for is a quick painless death. That's why in REAL aviation...

A safety link is installed at the point of attachment of the towline to the towing aircraft with a breaking strength greater, but not more than 25 percent greater, than that of the safety link at the towed glider end of the towline and not greater than twice the maximum certificated operating weight of the glider.

Associated Press - 2011/07/17
Hollywood, Maryland

Police announced Sunday that 55-year-old James Michael Dayton of Mechanicsville was killed Friday when the glider he was riding in crashed into trees near the airport in Hollywood.

Authorities say the pilot was 53-year-old Nicholas John Mirales of Prince Frederick. Mirales was in critical condition when he was flown from the crash scene.

A National Transportation Safety Board spokesman says the Slingsby 49B glider crashed shortly after takeoff when it became disconnected from its towing plane. The NTSB is expected to release a preliminary report of the accident within ten days of the crash.

You prepare for the worst - by adhering to regulations - before you take off so you don't have to experience it in the air on your way back down to the ground.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Zack C - 2011/08/25 00:55:58 UTC

Would you like to propose otherwise?
Yes, in fact, this *is* how it works.

I'll let Steve Kroop propose otherwise:

Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster.
...
Weak links do NOT prevent lockouts and no amount of weak link rules will prevent lock outs
In the event of a lock out releases are there to save the pilot

This disagrees with Lauren's belief that the weak link protects a pilot that "gets too far out of whack".

I'm with Davis...the purpose of a weak link is

To break under load before the glider does.

Because it did.
Plain and simple. Sometimes the mystic forces of the universe do strange and unusual things.

There wouldn't be anything strange or unusual about the tug weak link breaking first if it's weaker than the glider's. As Ridgerodent previously pointed out, USHPA's aerotow SOPs specify that

The weak link at the tow plane end of the towline should break with a towline tension approximately 100 lbs. greater than the glider end.

He also asked for breaking strength numbers and never got them.

So what?

Ridgerodent addressed this one above. Not an issue at altitude, but near the ground...

Tandem flights are somehow immune to the forces of physics?

I think he was pointing out the discrepancy in Lauren's statement that she never had a weak link break on a tandem.

Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/25 04:12:33 UTC

An eminently qualified tandem pilot...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

Yeah, EMINENTLY qualified.

...reported a random incident...

Yeah - completely RANDOM. Who coulda seen that one coming?

...that we all could learn from

Not anyone with an IQ in the double digit range.

My response would be - "Thanks for letting us know that we have to be careful about how long our weaklinks are".

See above.

All the other crap you (ridgerodent) wrote is just noise.

Asshole.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

Ditto dude.

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.

Know it all... Yeah, I think I remember Paul Tjaden referring to you as "Mister Know-It-All" half a dozen years ago at Ridgely one night.

I mean seriously, this is our job.

Yep, good thing it's nothing that requires grade school equivalency.

We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

Well yeah. What is there possibly worth knowing that can't be learned by flying up and down all day every day.

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.

Yeah, you'd think. But that's before they figured in the ravages of fetal alcohol syndrome.

They *might* do well to listen.

Who's "THEY"? How come THEY'RE not listening? Figured out that you're totally full of shit?

Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.

Hope for at least some small segment of the species.

I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this?

- That was actually ZACK who "informed" you as to what Kroop has to say on this.

- Zack didn't actually inform you as to what Kroop has to say on this. Zack QUOTED Steve from within a post of Davis's on skysailingtowing - 2005/02/09.

Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him.

Yeah, figures. He got part of this right but he's a moron too.

Hey Steve! Aren't you gonna step in, help your GOOD FRIEND out, and tell us all why you were totally full of shit when you made those statement? Or are you just too good to waste your time in a public discussion in which you can be publicly cut to shreds?

We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON.

- Great. 'Cept I prefer seeing things in print instead of listening to some semiliterate lying brain damaged asshole tell us what he "remembers" him saying.

- But I'm not even hearing this semiliterate lying brain damaged asshole tell us what he "remembers" him saying.

And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.

Yeah, motherfucker? Here's the QUOTE:

Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster.
...
Weak links do NOT prevent lockouts and no amount of weak link rules will prevent lock outs
In the event of a lock out releases are there to save the pilot

What are we of the unwashed general public so laughably misunderstanding about it?

Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.

No, Tad didn't GET himself banned. Your douchebag friends didn't want anybody around who was smart enough to see the negligence and incompetence through all the bullshit.

So, argue all you like.
I don't care.

Of course you don't, Jim. You can do whatever the fuck you want 'cause you know there's nobody around who's gonna enforce anything or hold you accountable.

I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

Yeah Jim, a million times. And you're gonna win every one of them 'cause there's nothing to keep any of you assholes in check.

I could be more political about it...

Yeah, that would save you from being academic about it.

...but screw it... I'm not in the mood to put up with tender sensibilities... Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing.

Nah Jim, nobody's ever gonna inform you about ANYTHING. That walnut sized brain of yours was maxed out before you got halfway through kindergarten.

I've got thousands upon thousands of tows under my belt. I don't know everything...

Sure you do.

...but I'll wager the house that I've got it sussed a bit better than an armchair warrior.

Really? Under how much towline tension does a loop of 130 pound Greenspot on the end of a two point bridle blow?

Steve Davy - 2011/08/25 05:11:19 UTC

Are you taking any prescription medications? How is the weather? Got any time to read a little closer?

Fuck no. He's too busy ignoring questions and reality.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 05:23:34 UTC

Yeah, weather was kinda cool today... got some flying in actually.

Like I said... I've been through this a thousand times.

And - unlike a garden slug - have proven yourself totally incapable of learning ANYTHING.

You simply assuming that I've not read your posts doesn't make it so.

Yeah? You attributed one of Zack's posts to Rodent and haven't addressed the issue of why Steve Kroop has been telling you what he previously wrote was crap.

I just don't agree with you.
I don't have any desire to argue with you.
I can share what I know with you, but I have little interest in arguing about it.

And it's all just a matter of the opinions of the person with the most tows per weekend being right, right?

So, if you'd like to know, then I can maybe clear some shit up.

If you cleared up your shit there'd be nothing left.

But, if this is going to continue to be a bashup, I'll just go back to what I do and ya'll can have your nice misinformed arguments.

Oh, please don't deprive us of the dazzling light of your keen intellect and leave us in impenetrable and eternal darkness.

Ksykes hit it straight on the head.
Please take the cue.

Steve Davy - 2011/08/25 05:34:01 UTC

Please continue. I am all ears.
I have been trying to fault Tad's logic and so far been unsuccessful.

This is Flight Park Mafia you're talking to. We're not gonna be doing logic.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 05:37:34 UTC

I suspect you ARE Tad.

Steve Davy - 2011/08/25 05:40:20 UTC

No, but what he writes makes sense to me.
But thanks for the compliment.

Thanks for the compliment.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 05:42:28 UTC

I'm Member #78142

I used to be Member 32674. That's less than 42 percent of yours. I started towing nearly 22 years before you reared your ugly little head in this sport. (For what that's worth.)

To whom am I speaking?

What's it matter? You're not gonna answer any hard questions regardless of who's asking them.

I'm an instructor, so I can verify your name/number against the USHPA database.

Steve Davy - 2011/08/25 05:48:31 UTC

88875
Steve Davy

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 05:56:41 UTC

I've sent you a "pilot connect" message.
If you are Steve Davy, then you'll receive it.

If you're Steve, sorry to be a prick about this.. but since you seem to have read Tad's blatherings, then you will likely also be familiar with why I'm being a prick.

You're not a prick, Jim. You're an asshole.

Christopher LeFay - 2011/08/25 06:19:42 UTC

I'm an instructor, so I can verify your name/number against the USHPA database.

A privilege afforded anyone, instructor or no.

Speak to the message - not the messenger (that's what email is for). In this case, the message takes the form of a troll - which you feed and feed and feed and feed...

Don't know Jim very well, do ya Christopher? Jim NEVER speaks to messages.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 06:23:15 UTC

Too right Christopher.
I didn't realize that till after I sent it... which is what the email bit is about of course.
He can claim to be Steve, and maybe he is... but he can't read Steve's email unless he is.

Thus far, I am still awaiting a reply.
I was serious too... he sounds like Tad.

You're right too... at the end of the day, he's a Troll... just as Tad is a huge troll.

Yeah, anybody who challenges anybody in the Flight Park Mafia is a troll. And anybody with any ten year old kid common sense is a huge troll.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 06:25:28 UTC

Nope... drat... just a plain ole troll.
But, an outted troll.

BTW... we've taken this offline.

Keep it on line, Steve. We need to publicly destroy and humiliate this miserable little shit to the maximum extent possible.

I'm happy to know that I am in fact speaking with Steve, not Tad.
Tad makes my skin crawl.

Yeah, I'm hoping to educate a few more people to the extent that they also can make your skin crawl.

Hey Davis...

Davis Straub - 2011/07/31 17:55:25 UTC

To break under load before the glider does.

Haven't heard from ya in a while. Care to come back out from under your rock long enough to weigh in on this discussion?

Steve Davy - 2011/08/25

So, I'm a troll for pointing out obvious and predictable discrepancies in a rather simple operation. Pulling a glider into the air with a piece string.

It is a joke.

Bull's-eye. Naked emperor.
But this message has been deleted. I wonder by whom?
Looks like you win another one Jim - the only possible way you can.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 06:29:21 UTC

BTW... we've taken this offline.

Christopher LeFay - 2011/08/25 08:04:50 UTC

Ridgerodent:
So, I'm a troll for pointing out obvious and predictable discrepancies in a rather simple operation. Pulling a glider into the air with a piece string.

It is a joke.

But it doesn't get deleted before Christopher has time to harvest and quote it. Interesting that nobody's commented on the now very conspicuous absence.

It's the method - not the message - that places you under the bridge.

Right. Calling out of bunch of incestuous Ridgely and Quest "educated" douchebags who have no freakin' clue about the load at which what their little configurations of fishing line blow, how to arrange them to comply with regulations and not weld themselves to the tow ring, and even what the function of the weak link is and refuse to make the slightest pretense of either answering any questions or doing the decent thing and admitting that they have no freakin' clue makes Rodent a troll.

Provocation, incitement, transplanting a topic that has burnt itself out in attempt to fan the flame back to life - these are acts of a troll.

These are the acts of ANYONE who can't get straight answers to simple, basic, fundamental questions.

Rather than providing a well considered new perspective, a troll assumes the world just hasn't heard them yet - so yells louder.

Twenty freakin' years of this velcroed on cable, bent pin, 130 pound Greenspot, Dragonfly bullshit? And it's an ASSUMPTION that the world is deaf - and terminally stupid?

The less than well considered responses are no surprise, either - but rather the predictable reaction of those who tire of monologue presented as dialog. We will all be greater served by more humility and less contempt all the way around.

- Wouldn't we be well served by getting straight answers regardless of the attitude?
- The Flight Park Mafia reps in this discussion are worthy of nothing better than total contempt.

Tommy Thompson - 2011/08/25 10:54:12 UTC
Whitewater

the message takes the form of a troll - which you feed and feed and feed and feed...

IMO there has to be Ambiguities for this to happen.

AMBIGUITIES in hang gliding about weak links? NO WAY!!!

If USHPA sold SOP conforming weaklink material (solo, tandem, tug) at cost, it could help reduce misinterpretations...

Well SURE! That should be EASY.

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc.
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
10. Hang Gliding Aerotow Ratings
-B. Aero Vehicle Requirements

05. A weak link must be placed at both ends of the tow line. The weak link at the glider end must have a breaking strength that will break before the towline tension exceeds twice the weight of the hang glider pilot and glider combination. The weak link at the tow plane end of the towline should break with a towline tension approximately 100 pounds greater than the glider end.

Let's use Zack's Sport 2 155 solo as an example...
- 210 and 310 min and max flying weights, glider end weak link zero on the safe end to 620 on the dangerous.
- Tug end weak link a hundred pounds on the safe end to 720 on the dangerous.
- But it just says "should" for the tug. So what the fuck - zero to whatever the hell you feel like.

And for tandem... Hell, use whatever you feel like on the back 'cause the entire Flight Park Mafia uses lighter weak links at the front. So you're gonna get the rope no matter what - as Lauren and Paul recently demonstrated.

...and save the Pilot/instructor a few bucks(they can buy in bulk) at the same time.

Yeah. And when all the solo gliders are being allowed and forced to fly with 130 pound Greenspot you tend to go through thousand foot spools pretty fast - especially in conjunction with spinnaker shackles.

Or we could do it the way they do in REAL aviation...

Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

- Use only the weak links stipulated in your aircraft TCDS or aircraft manual.

http://www.energykitesystems.net/Lift/hgh/TadEareckson/Tostweaklinktable.pdf