Interesting. Please describe the other safety uses.
Geez... It:
- might not break before:
-- you:
--- get:
---- locked out
---- into a dangerously steep climb
---- pulled through the control frame
---- dragged
--- overload your bent pin release
--- tear the wings off your glider when you hit 914 propwash
--- pull the tug's tail around really hard
--- stall and crash the tug
- would:
-- have a very short track record
-- break before the Dragonfly's tow mast breakaway protector and leave you with the towline
-- make you a test pilot - and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney doesn't like test pilots
Watch just how many of these assholes aren't and won't be saying anything.
A pilots ability to control pitch plays a large roll in the G's applied to the gilders tow line, if a H2 pilot has not gained proper pitch control they'l pop 1G weaklinks each time they try to launch in conditions beyond their skill level, you could just put a 2G weaklink on him and chances are he could complete a mid-day tow, but should he be in them conditions without good pitch control? tow is only half the battle.
it's possible to give someone two or three tandems then tow them in the air solo, if you didn't use any weaklink, but should they be there?, you could give someone five or six tandems and a 2G could get them up, it's not until they gain good pitch control that 1G would work.
A H3 foot launch only pilot could aero-tow the first time without first doing a tandem, if no weak link was used, A H4 foot launch only pilot could complete his first aero-tow using a 2G weak link without first doing a tandem.
IMO there are other safety uses.
A pilots ability to control pitch...
And here I was thinking that newish victims of hang gliding training programs tended to really suck at...
...to control pitch? Isn't it mostly the responsibility of the high plane to get the fuck back down into position? Doesn't the tug have SOME responsibility - airspeed and power permitting - to adjust for a glider struggling to get down and ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of the responsibility no matter what...
...if a H2 pilot has not gained proper pitch control they'l pop 1G weaklinks...
One G, we've already established, being a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot on any one or two point bridle on ANY solo glider...
...each time they try to launch in conditions beyond their skill level...
Yeah, if you're gonna pull students who have shit pitch control in conditions which they can't handle at their skill levels you really wanna use "one G" weak links which will break every time to increase the safety of the towing operation. 'Cause when they're...
Donnell Hewett - 1980/12
Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation."
...climbing hard in near stall situations and the weak link breaks at the worst possible time due to the high Gs applied to the glider's towline they're all suddenly gonna develop totally awesome pitch control skills...
...you could just put a 2G weaklink on him and chances are he could complete a mid-day tow...
Oh. So despite the fact that he's a crappy Hang Two with shit pitch control abilities if you give him a weak link that's twice as dangerous as the standard one he's probably gonna be able to complete the tow to altitude in crappy conditions in one shot instead of repeatedly popping up and off into stalls just off the cart. Got it. (More of this crappy argument...
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
...that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.)
...but should he be in them conditions without good pitch control?
I dunno. He's not supposed to HAVE a Two unless he has excellent pitch and roll control. Ask the assholes who signed him off and are hooking him up in them conditions.
tow is only half the battle.
And coming off tow upon the call of a chintzy piece of fishing line or fuckin' moron of a tug driver at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation or upon the decision of the pilot in a lockout with chintzy bent pin release within easy reach is the other 95 percent.
it's possible to give someone two or three tandems then tow them in the air solo...
Is it possible to tow someone in the air solo without "GIVING" him two or three tandems?
...if you didn't use any weaklink...
You mean in even more blatant violation of FAA aerotowing regulations than usual? I dunno? Is it possible to tow someone solo without a helmet and/or parachute?
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
You and I have flown sailplanes for almost as long as we have flown hang gliders. We own two sailplanes and have two airplanes that we use for towing full-size sailplanes. In all the time that we have flown and towed sailplanes, we have not experienced or even seen a sailplane weak link break.
If you're using an overload protector and you never allow a tow to go so tits up that you need an overload protector than it's possible to tow someone without an overload protector.
...but should they be there?
Should pro toad Quest Linker Zack Marzec have been 250 feet behind Mark Frutiger right after the latter entered a monster thermal coming off the Quest runway at 15:20 on 2013/02/02? He got killed a lot worse than any of these Hang Twos in crappy air with crappy pitch control skills you're talking about. Name some people who don't think that was OK.
...it's not until they gain good pitch control that 1G would work.
OH! So the BETTER the pilot the LIGHTER the weak link he can get away with using. Funny...
Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition. Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.
Naw.
Davis has been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.
...of what I've always heard. Go figure.
A H3 foot launch only pilot could aero-tow the first time without first doing a tandem...
You mean the way EVERYONE did in the early days of hang glider aerotowing - foot launch and one point bridle - without one single consequential incident?
...if no weak link was used, A H4 foot launch only pilot could complete his first aero-tow using a 2G weak link without first doing a tandem.
How 'bout a three G weak link? How 'bout ten Gs? How 'bout with a ten foot diameter emergency parachute? If something doesn't and virtually never comes into play what's the point in assigning numbers to it?
IMO there are other safety uses.
Oh.
- So none of the above was opinion based. That's all established, universally accepted fact. Pretty fuckin' obviously 'cause so far not one individual has uttered one single syllable of objection to one single syllable of anything you've said. (And I note that Pat fuckin' Halfhill was logged in at 2014/11/08 15:19:00 UTC.)
- But beyond that you have OPINIONS about other issues that we're gonna need oyster knives to pry out of you.
So I don't really understand why these are just *YOUR* *OPINIONS*. You haven't discussed them with the any other aerotow professionals or Towing Committee members? They're not described and explained in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden or HANG GLIDING FOR BEGINNER PILOTS, the Official Flight Training Manual of the U. S. Hang Gliding Association.
This stuff is absolutely golden - what's being said and all the assholes who aren't saying anything. Keep him talking.
This thread (split from one topic to another) now has (only) seven original posts from only three participants - one fairly neutral, two friendlies, no enemies.
Bill Cummings, Mark G. Forbes, Sam Kellner, Jerry Forburger, Kinsley Sykes, and Davis are confirmed to have been logged in subsequent to Tommy's initial statement about Hang Twos flying at two Gs. It's a no brainer that Gerry Grossnegger has accessed and a good bet for Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney. If anyone sees him on please record the precise time and lemme know.
There has been ZERO reference to lockouts or any other conceivable increase in the safety of the towing operation - ONLY negative consequences of weak links kicking in. And we've got a statement from the neutral that more experienced/skilled pilots can handle LIGHTER weaklinks than total muppets and that heavier weak links pose zero risk to the latter.
This is fuckin' historic. This is our Berlin Wall crumbling down. The brick one was 1961/08/12 to 1989/11/09, twenty-eight and a quarter years, and ours was about 1981 to 2013, thirty-two.
During the US Nationals I wrote a bit about weaklinks and the gag weaklinks that someone tied at Quest Air. A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.
The problem with strong links (neither Bobby Bailey nor I was aware at the time of the US Nationals that pilots were doing this) is that they endanger the tug pilot. If the hang glider pilot goes into a lock out, and doesn't break the weaklink (because there isn't one), they can stall the tug.
The simple fact is this. The only reason anyone even gives Tad the time of day is that they want to believe him. Why? Because they don't like to be inconvenienced by a weaklink break. That's it.
Sure, everyone digs around for other reasons to believe, but at the heart of it, it's convenience.
No one is actually scared to fly with a standard weaklink. They may say they are, but deep down inside, they're not. BTW, this weaklink as a lifeline comment... any tow pilot that takes you over something you can't get out from should be shot. It is one of the cardinal rules of towing. Again, "I wana believe" rationalization.
Tad loves to speak of himself as a scientifically minded person. Yet he ignores a data pool that is at minimumthree orders of magnitude higher than his. It is thus that I ignore him.
Thought I already answered that one... instead of quoting myself (have a look back if you don't believe me), I'll just reiterate it.
I don't advocate anything.
I use what we use at the flight parks. It's time tested and proven... and works a hell of a lot better than all the other bullshit I've seen out there.
130lb greenspot (greenspun?) cortland fishing line.
In stock at Quest, Highland, Eastern Shore, Kitty Hawk Kites, Florida Ridge, and I'm pretty sure Wallaby, Lookout and Morningside.
Not sure what Tracy up at Cloud Nine uses, but I'll put bets on the same.
Did I miss any?
Is it clear what I mean by "We"?
I didn't make the system up.
And I'm not so arrogant to think that my precious little ideas are going to magically revolutionise the industry.
There are far smarter people than me working this out.
I know, I've worked with them.
(Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit... for example.)
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
Based on several decades of experience and hundreds of thousands of tows conducted by numerous aerotow operators across the county, the de facto standard has become use of a 260 lb. weak link made as a loop of 130 lb. green spot IGFA Dacron braided fishing line attached to one end of the pilot's V-bridle.
Because this has been beaten to death - google Tad Eareckson and try to read the mind-numbing BS. Most of the folks who have been towing for decades have worked this stuff out.
I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.
AT isn't new. This stuff's been worked on and worked over for years and thousands upon thousands of tows. I love all these egomaniacs that jump up and decide that they're going to "fix" things, as if no one else has ever thought of this stuff?
It was already worked out by the time I arrived.
The reason it sticks?
Trail and error.
Every now and then someone comes along with the "new" idea of a stronger weaklink. Eventually, they scare themselves with it and wind up back with one that has a very proven track record. I mean really... no exaggeration... hundreds of thousands of tows.
Say what you will, but if you want to argue with *that* much history, well, you better have one hell of an argument... which you don't.
It amuses me how many people want to be test pilots.
It amuses me even more that people...
A) Don't realize that "test pilot" is exactly what they're signing up for and B) actually testing something is a far more involved process than "I think I just try out my theory and see what happens".
Allow me to repeat... hundreds of thousands of tows.
Sure, there's other stuff out there too. Some of it even has a number of tows behind it... but hundreds of thousands is a very large number.
That's not "religion" my friend.
The shit works. It works in reality and it works consistently. It's not perfect, but Joe-Blow's pet theories have a very high bar to reach before they are given credence.
It's sad that Zach's gone.
Some (perhaps well-intended?) pilots seem to be promoting the old, tired, "better" weak links and "hands on bar" release ideas.
And now, guys, a few people suddenly decide for no stated reason or pretense of testing and trail and error whatsoever that they're happy with two hundred and a bit later every Hang Two and his fuckin' dog are slapping it on like there's no tomorrow.
And just how do you think that makes all those highly dedicated safety conscious individuals who spent decades, quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows worth of risking life, limb, and Dragonflies meticulously pinging in on 130 as the ideal one-size-fits-all solo pitch and lockout protector feel? All that work and collective wisdom pissed all over and flushed right down the toilet. Didn't even have the decency to notch up to 160 for a decade or so first.
I sure know how *I'D* feel in the face of an insult like that and what I'd do about it. So why do you think it is that we haven't heard one single murmur of protest from one single individual who was involved in the single most massive and unified movement to enhance safety in the entire history of the sport?
Hell, not even a single peep from a single one of the guys...
Unfortunately, many hang glider pilots do not appreciate or understand the significant risks repeatedly taken by tug pilots and aerotow club or flight park operators, on behalf of hang glider pilots so that the hang glider pilots can have safe tows and have fun. Most tow pilots experience many more tows under a much wider variety of conditions, pilots, and equipment, and than even the some of the most experienced and advanced hang glider pilots. It is interesting to note (or so it seems) that when hang glider pilots try being tow pilots, the most don't last long.
The sailplane guys have been doing this for a long time, and there are many hang glider pilots and quite a few tug pilots who don't understand what the sailplane guys have learned over the years. It certainly would help if hang glider towing methods and training were standardized to the degree that they are in the sailplane world. Maybe the Sport Pilot regs will eventually help hang gliding in this regard. It helps a lot when a hang glider pilot gets a little training in sailplanes, and even more so if they experience sailplane towing at different locations and encounter very similar systems and techniques.
Both sailplanes and aerotowed hang gliders use properly-rated weaklinks at both ends for a very good reason. It is not primarily to prevent a lock out. It is a fallicy to think that weak links will reliably prevent a lock out. In engineering terms, the weaklink is not a robust design--it will not break consistently in a wide variety of conditions. If it is a lower-rated weak link, it may or may not break prior to or during a lock out--and it is also more likely to break in the heavy turbulence experienced by advanced pilots. Therefore, an advanced hang glider pilot may opt for a stronger weaklink, with some additional risk. Conversely, use of a weaker link in turbulance may cause a premature weaklink break, which can also entail some risk. Therefore, the use of a stronger weak link may be warranted.
If an advanced pilot wishes to use a stronger weak link, the degree of extra strength must be limited. Primarily, the use of a weak link is to save the tug pilot's behind, by preventing structural and/or control failure--and it should also help to prevent structural and/or control failure of the vehicle being towed. Secondarily, a lower-rated weaklink may or may not help to prevent a full lockout--just don't count on it.
The following recommendations are based on our experience over the last 10 years. We use 4-stroke powered Dragonflies, and our spring/early summer air is very turbulent.
Whether pro-tow or 3 point tow, we use and recommend a single stand loop of 130 lb weaklink for general pilots, which is not pre-tied, but uses the 4/5-loop-then-tie method for attachment. Pre-tying is less robust, meaning it does not break as consistently as the 4/5-loop-then-tie method. We use a single strand of 150 lb weaklink, again not pre-tied, for heavier, more advanced pilots in very turbulent air. We use a double loop of 130-lb weaklink for tandems, Scot Maue (big, VERY big), and at the other end for the tug. Also, the hang glider pilot should only use one weaklink, at the upper attach point in a 3 point bridle system, to prevent tucking should the bridle release at the low end and snag the ring. We have had excellent results using that system.
A tug pilot and/or aerotow operator has every right to inspect the use and quality of the weaklink used by a hang glider pilot, and has a duty to him/her self and the hang glider pilot to make sure that it is not too strong for its primary purpose. Concurrently, the hang glider pilot has a duty to understand and respect the well-founded concerns of the tow pilot and/or aerotow operator.
Regards,
Tracy Tillman
Draachen Fliegen Soaring Club
Cloud 9 Field
11088 Coon Lake Rd. W.
Webberville, MI 48892
Nobody's talking about 130lb weaklinks? (oh please)
Many reasons.
Couple of 'em for ya... they're manufactured, cheap and identifiable.
See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins... I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.
...who are selflessly putting their asses on the line just so's we muppets can get our jollies on the weekends. Most peculiar.
He didn't used to be that bad. Something has happened / is happening to his wiring. Nevertheless, he's still making more sense than all the Davis/Rooney Linkers combined.
In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.
An eminently qualified tandem pilot reported a random incident that we all could learn from
My response would be - "Thanks for letting us know that we have to be careful about how long our weaklinks are".
All the other crap you (ridgerodent) wrote is just noise.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC
Ditto dude.
It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).
We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.
I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.
Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.
So, argue all you like.
I don't care.
I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.
I could be more political about it, but screw it... I'm not in the mood to put up with tender sensibilities... Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing. I've got thousands upon thousands of tows under my belt. I don't know everything, but I'll wager the house that I've got it sussed a bit better than an armchair warrior.
Steve Davy - 2011/08/31 10:11:32 UTC
Zack figured it out. Well done Zack! Enjoy your vacation.
Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC
Well actually he didn't. But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...
C'mon Jim.
I started campaigning for Tad-O-Links back in the Dark Ages when everyone and his fuckin' dog were rabid Rooney Linkers. I had total shit in the way of allies, got pissed all over by everyone, harassed, attacked, blacklisted out of the sport and harassed, attacked, and blacklisted out of damn near every glider forum on the planet. And now everyone and his fuckin' dog are going nuts with Tad-O-Links.
You started out as God's Gift to Aviation with people lined up as far as the eye could see to kiss your ass and suck your dick and do to me whatever you told them too.
And here we are.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC
Hi Tormod.
Oh, not at all.
I think what you're picking up on is my lack of willingness to discuss this with people that have already made up their minds.
Sorry for that, but it's just the nature of the beast.
I have no issue with discussing this with people that don't have an agenda.
I get very short with people that do however.
Am I "certain" about anything?
Nope.
However, some things get real obvious when you're doing them all the time. One is that weaklinks do in fact save people's asses.
You're 100% onto it... relying on the skill of the pilot is a numbers game that you'll lose at some point.
I find that so many people do not appreciate how fast and furious lockouts can happen.
They're exponential in nature.
Twice the time doesn't equate to twice the "bad"... it's four times the "bad"... then 16... it gets dramatic fast.
Is a weaklink going to save your ass? Who knows? But it's nice to stack the deck in your favour.
Now flip the argument and you start to see the devil.
A glider can take a whole shitload more force than a weaklink can.
So, if you're of the "sole purpose" cult, then you see no issue with a LOT stronger weaklink.
Well, it won't take long with that system before we've got a lot more dead pilots out there.
So they can stuff their philosophical purity bs... cuz I have no desire to tow someone to their death, no matter how willing they may be.
I'm not playing with this stuff in my head and just dismissing it. There's been a lot that's gone into this system.
I've seen too many people walk the "strong link" road only to find out the reality of things.
Fortunately, they've been unscathed, but there have been a lot of soiled underpants in the process.
I'm happy to discuss this stuff.
But I'm sick to death of arguing about it.
You were eternally sick to death of arguing against Tad-O-Links when there was virtually no threat to Rooney Links. But now that Rooney Links are totally going down the toilet and we're on the brink of a mass slaughter of hang glider pilots that will totally dwarf what we saw in the mid to late Seventies you're doing absolutely NOTHING. If you really believe in something then fight for it.
Or has this just been one big popularity contest for you all along?
You were obviously the same useless halfwitted slimy little shit as a kid that you are now and you figured a way to scam your way into a position in which you could be revered as a God in hang gliding.
Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
Joyride is over, PUNK. Notice how stuff like THIS:
I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot.
ain't happening nowhere no more? You'll never again have an ounce's worth of credibility in this sport or, hopefully, anywhere else. Hope you had fun while it lasted.
A 1G weaklink sounds like a test of sorts, like walking on thin ice. You can get further quicker on the thick stuff, but should you be there?
Thin ice either holds or it doesn't. You can increase your likelihood of staying dry by flattening yourself out and moving at a slow crawl but if your goal is to have fun ice skating there's not much justification for doing that.
Thick ice is as reliable as a highway. You can go as far and fast as you like. There's always a danger that you can be eaten by a Polar Bear but there are lotsa pretty good measures you can take to keep that from happening and hardly any of them involve breaking through the ice to escape - assuming you're not a seal, of course.
Also... You can get killed just as dead driving into a telephone pole at forty with twenty horses under the hood as you can with ten times that many. And you probably don't wanna be trying to get up to speed on an entrance ramp with the little engine running on fumes.
Tommy Thompson - 2014/11/09 13:06:20 UTC
Brianscharp, it only appears as a test because of the question asked, it operates more like a limit, at 1G your just in over your head, at 2G you can get way over your head.
Bullshit. Any weak link that's capable of getting you airborne is capable of accelerating you to the point at which you can get killed many times over. Goddam fuckin' Davis Link which may blow six times in a row in light morning conditions will deliver well over two hundred pounds of thrust to your glider. You can get extremely killed because it holds while you're locking out at five feet - à la Steve Elliot - or doesn't hold while you're rocketing up in a monster thermal at 150.
If you think your life may be dependent on quickly eliminating tension use a release that doesn't stink on ice and a weak link which won't dump you into a whipstall while you're rocketing up in a monster thermal or dust devil.
A one G weak link is the single most dangerous item you can install in a towing system. If you read the "thinking" behind that value...
Donnell Hewett - 1981/10
A properly designed weak link must be strong enough to permit a good rate of climb without breaking, and it must be weak enough to break before the glider gets out of control, stalls, or collapses.
...you find that the intent is to have it blow WHILE the glider is UNDER CONTROL. WHEN it breaks the glider is - BY DEFINITION - *NOT* UNDER CONTROL because the intent of the Pilot In Command has been overridden and the flight plan has just gone down the toilet. And Donnell sure picked a great rating to maximize the probability of that happening.
A two G weak link will ALWAYS blow before the glider collapses and, for all intents and purposes, NEVER blow while the glider is UNDER CONTROL.
I can tell you that I fly with a 200lb weaklink on one side of my 750lb pro tow bridle. I am happy with it.
You'll notice that, to date, we have ZERO reports of any two hundred pound weak links breaking. Everybody's suddenly happy with them for the sole reason that they don't break and thus they might as well be three or ten G weak links.
And I one hundred percent guarantee you that you will NEVER hear anyone say either:
- "Wow! There I was, thought I was gonna die. Thermal induced lockout at thirty feet. My two hundred pounder blew just as my control authority was in the toilet and just soon enough to allow me to get the glider straightened out and level and land on my feet smelling like a rose.
- "Wow! There I was, thought I was gonna die. Started going up like a rocket when I hit a monster thermal at seventy-five feet. My two hundred pounder blew just in time to prevent me from pitching up to a dangerous pitch attitude. Popped me off at twenty-five degrees positive - well inside the placard limitations. No stall, just a gentle dip of the nose and I landed on my feet smelling like a rose."
There's pilots that fly, and them that talk about it(I'm temp grounded)
And there's zero correlation regarding the accuracy and quality of the information coming from individuals in those two groups.
Brian Scharp - 2014/11/09 19:42:10 UTC
Thanks TommyT,
I'm glad the grounding is temporary.
So is it by having enough skill to overcome the limitations of the 1G, you're showing you may be ready for a 2G?
No. There's just so much skill one can develop in towing and there's not a goddam thing that a multi thousand hour Hang Five pilot can do while being pulled by a string that a competent 2.0 can't. If someone's attempting to twist his body in the control frame to effect roll control it's because his instructor totally sucked and he has no business being in the air in any situation in which he's got enough kinetic and/or potential energy to hurt himself.
I hope their releasing skills are ready.
There is no skill involved in blowing a release that doesn't stink on ice. Kinda like driving cars. Nobody in automotive history has ever been idolized for his panic braking skill and expertise.
Also there's no skill attainable that enables one to safely blow a release that...
05-215
07-300
08-301
09-304
11-311
15-413
...DOES stink on ice - unless you swallow crap like:
Sorry, but that's not the best answer. We don't live in a perfect world of quantum knowns and 100% reliabilities. Fine-tuning a weak link isn't going to get us but so far. There's also a way to swing your body way outside the control frame so it stays up there while you reach out with one hand and release. Come on - do some pushups this winter. See if you can advance up to some one-arm pushups.
There are pilots that fly with radios and talk about it at the same time. Quite a few even talk to themselves while flying.
And thus get even stupider than they were when they took off.
Sorry Tommy, lost me at "MY OPINION". Who gives a flying fuck about your goddam opinion? What qualifications do you have to hold the conceit that you have some special insights in hang glider towing that your personal belief system should carry any weight?
...the only place for 2G is at the tug end of the tow rope...
- The only LEGAL place for a two G weak link is at the tug end of the rope. The poorly written regulations state specify max two G and the tug's weak link has to be heavier than the glider's. Therefore the max the gilder can carry is something slightly under two.
- Have you ever once in your life seen a weak link at the tug end of the tow rope when the tug was a Dragonfly?
...if a pilot lack the skills to tow safely(1G window) they should work on your tow skills...
If he lacks the skill to tow at one G he lacks the skill to tow at ANY Gs - including zero.
...or tow in conditions within your skill level.
No shit.
decreasing the safety margin seems like a bad idea to me.
Wow! That certainly is profound! Is that an opinion you came up with all by yourself?
...for this topic a tandem 1G weaklink is 200lb,a tandem 2G would be the tug's 400lb weaklink only.
Yeah Tommy, for that topic anything you decide to pull out of your ass is anything you say it is.
A Falcon 3 Tandem has a max certified operating weight, which, legally and logically, is the only number we look at, of 571 pounds. All tandems fly with two point bridles. A two hundred pound weak link on a two point bridle translates to 348 towline or 0.61 Gs which isn't 1.00 Gs and isn't even CLOSE to the 0.80 legal minimum. To get up to two Gs you need 657 on the top end of that bridle. Make it 656 so's you can have 2.0 on the tug and squeak by legally.
Brian sometimes the extremes are easiest to see, Say a T2 Instructor has 12 tandems to do, but the winds are 15-20 with 30MPH gusts.
after breaking two 1G weaklinks...
And recovering and landing just fine 'cause any weak link break - by definition - increases the safety of the towing operation.
...he has two options, one would be to tow with only the tug's 2G weaklink...
- He DOES NOT have that option legally, motherfucker. Furthermore, that goddam Dragonfly tow mast breakaway - let alone the goddam idiotic tow mast breakaway protector - takes a two G tandem weak link so far out of the equation that it's totally moronic to be discussing this. You can't legally tow ANY tandem with a Dragonfly.
- The glider was totally UNDER CONTROL when those weak links blew. And at this point it's had TWO launches and landings in that crap with nothing to show for them beyond burned gas and wear and tear on the tug.
...the other is to send the people home, which is the right answer?
- What would be the answer if this were a slope launch?
- So bullshit like this is happening in real life?
decreasing the safety margin seems like a bad idea to me.
Unless it's dumbing the weak link down to Marzec level. Then it seems like a fucking FANTASTIC idea to you assholes.
Brian Scharp - 2014/11/10 01:02:30 UTC
I know that was just an example, but wouldn't it be even better if the Instructor were able to recognize unsafe conditions and send them home without even trying once? Since they tried twice, they must think it's doable.
It WAS doable. The tow was going fine. And the tug pilot was totally cool with the safety margins. And each and every one of those motherfuckers walks on water.
Maybe that Instructor just needs to work more on towing skills...
There's no such thing as towing skills. If there were we'd see videos of real towing aces like Davis...
Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.
They broke because they WERE DESIGNED TO BREAK WHILE THE GLIDER WAS UNDER CONTROL.
...and should keep trying with the 1G until they get it right.
You can try until hell freezes over and you won't get it right. A one G weak link is the equivalent of a dangerously frayed towline which is something that can kill you just as dead as a sidewire with a few broken strands. There is no way to get it right or make it safe because it totally overrides pilot - and driver - control.
There isn't a sailplane manufacturer on the planet who specifies a weak link under 1.3 Gs. And those things can get away with lighter weak links because they've got much better lift to drag ratios and control authority than we have.
Anybody who tows ANYTHING at under 1.3 Gs is incompetent. Anybody who tows a hang glider at under 1.5 Gs is an idiot. Anybody who tows a paraglider at under two Gs has a death wish.
You can't get things right in the air after you've left the ground with dangerous crap.
Tommy Thompson - 2014/11/10 01:15:00 UTC
Brian, I think the same is true for the solo HGing pilot.
Fer sure. And we should keep those guys under fifty feet for the first couple years 'cause much more than that and they'll be able to stuff the bar and dive it into the ground. Probably oughta take a look at new Cessna pilots too. Put them up with smaller engines to make it harder for them to fly into hillsides and cell phone towers really fast.
Just 'cause your glider can go eighty and pull six Gs doesn't mean you're obligated to go eighty and/or pull six Gs. The fact that your weak link will hold to two Gs doesn't obligate you to stay on tow to two Gs - it just gives you that option. Kinda the way although your speedometer may read up to 160 and your car may be capable of doing it there's no law that requires you to go 160 an a wet windy road at night. Try to get that concept through your thick fucking skull.
Still not ONE SINGLE MENTION of lockout, dangerous pitch attitude, or even any significant loss of control fixed or mitigated by a weak link of any strength or rating.
Relevant people who've been confirmed logged in subsequent to Tommy Thompson's bombshell post about Twos flying two G weak links who've rather conspicuously not commented:
Bill Cummings
Mark G. Forbes
Sam Kellner
Jerry Forburger
Kinsley Sykes
Davis Straub
Gregg Ludwig
Steve Forslund
Rolla Manning
Rob Clarkson
Oakdude / Bob Sponge / Paul Walsh
Brad Gryder
Mark Frutiger
Michael Bradford
Bart Doets
I haven't seen a trace of Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney - who's been a pretty much constant presence on The Davis Show since the beginning of time - in this period and I'm almost certain I was seeing him very shortly prior.
Last signs of digital life from that miserable little worm:
"The view from the other end of the rope" - three and a half months ago - was the last time he had anything to say about hang gliding. Guess he had everything spot on and there wasn't anything left to say. Does make ya wonder just a bit though...
It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things. The fanaticism makes it extremely hard to have a conversation about these things as they always degrade into arguments. So I save the actual conversations for when I'm talking with people in person.
...exactly what it is that the few anonymous people who are actually working on things are actually working on and why God's Gift to Aviation isn't keeping us updated on any of their progress or stumbling blocks they've encountered.
Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
Looks like that resource is history, Mitch. Who's your second choice? Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey? Steve Quietly-Amused Kroop? Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden?
See if you can advance up to some one-arm pushups.
