So, what you're saying is that the pilot has less capability than a sack of potatoes?
Brian Scharp - 2014/09/01 15:40:07 UTC
No, I'm saying that if this statement were true, you could tow up a sack of potatoes until the weak link broke at the beginning of a lockout. This statement doesn't seem legit unless you define - begins to develop - as possibly never.
HANG GLIDING FOR BEGINNER PILOTS
By Peter Cheney
Published by Matt Taber
Official Flight Training Manual of the U. S. Hang Gliding Association
...if you get too far off heading, and a lockout begins to develop, a proper weak link will break and release you from tow.
The pilot should be more capable - of preventing a lockout - than a sack of potatoes. If you can't make a weak link - weak enough - to prevent a lockout, it's the function of the release.
Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.
It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.
BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.
Here's a little bit of bitter reality that ya'll get to understand straight off. I won't be sugar coating it, sorry.
You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.
I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.
And yes. It is my call. PERIOD.
On tow, I am the PIC.
Now, that cuts hard against every fiber of every HG pilot on the planet and I get that.
Absolutely no HG pilot likes hearing it. Not me, not no one. BUT... sorry, that's the way it is.
Accept it and move on.
Not only can you not change it, it's the law... in the very literal sense.
Oh how I'm missing all of your Sacred Pronouncements. One more point on this crap...
A PASSENGER on a REAL plane with a REAL Pilot In Command - 'cept for a bit of CG alteration when he moves to the front or rear of the passenger compartment to take a leak - has ZERO effect on the control and operation of the plane.
Now that the accepted standards have changed a hang glider PILOT can deliver about 350 pounds of pull to the back end of that piece of crap you fly in just about any direction he feels like - left, right, up, down. We're PILOTS flying a three hundred pound extension of your plane and we definitely have a say about what's going on. We have the capability of killing your plane if you don't act like a goddam pilot.
You get some fuckin' idiot pro toad who tries to tow up in violent thermal conditions with one hand, a bent pin placebo release, and a mid legal range weak link that doesn't break when it's supposed to...
Zapata has delivered as promised, day after day with howling winds and good lift, where flights of over 100 miles (and much more) are possible.
Yesterday I chased Paul again. The tow rope weak link broke when Paul locked out and the weak link he got from Tad did not break. Russell said it was about the worst he has ever had his tail pulled around.
The lockout Lauren mentioned was precipitated by my attempt to pull on more VG while on tow. I have done this before but this time the line wouldn't cleat properly and while I was fighting it, I got clobbered and rolled hard right in a split second. There was a very large noise and jerk as the relatively heavy weak link at the tug broke giving me the rope. I recovered quickly from the wingover and flew back to the field to drop the line and then relaunched after changing to a normal weak link. I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do. Had the tug's link not broken, things could have gotten very ugly very fast. I still don't like weak links breaking when they shouldn't, but the one I was using was way too strong.
...he can get his tail pulled around almost as hard as he has before towing gliders using...
Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
...Industry Standard weak links.
Yeah, in actuality all you've gotta do is squeeze a lever but you fuckin' pansies have been have been wetting your pants for decades about the horrors...
Unfortunately, many hang glider pilots do not appreciate or understand the significant risks repeatedly taken by tug pilots and aerotow club or flight park operators, on behalf of hang glider pilots so that the hang glider pilots can have safe tows and have fun.
A tug pilot and/or aerotow operator has every right to inspect the use and quality of the weaklink used by a hang glider pilot, and has a duty to him/her self and the hang glider pilot to make sure that it is not too strong for its primary purpose. Concurrently, the hang glider pilot has a duty to understand and respect the well-founded concerns of the tow pilot and/or aerotow operator.
Nobody's talking about 130lb weaklinks? (oh please)
Many reasons.
Couple of 'em for ya... they're manufactured, cheap and identifiable.
See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins... I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.
...entailed in using anything heavier than a piece of fishing line which breaks six times in a row in light morning conditions on a glider with only one person under it.
Unfortunately, many hang glider pilots do not appreciate or understand the significant risks repeatedly taken by tug pilots and aerotow club or flight park operators, on behalf of hang glider pilots so that the hang glider pilots can have safe tows and have fun.
Probably because they're too used to seeing gliders getting driven and kicked into totally lethal roll attitudes...
...while the tugs continue on level as a stratus cloud without a care in the world.
Most tow pilots experience many more tows under a much wider variety of conditions, pilots, and equipment, and than even the some of the most experienced and advanced hang glider pilots.
- ALL tow drivers experience many more tows:
-- than any of the gliders they pull
-- with more different gliders and drivers than glider drivers experience different tugs and drivers
- NO tow drivers go up with:
-- power trains that may blow six times in a row in light morning conditions
-- bent pin crap "releases" within easy reach
-- towline attachments way the fuck below their centers of gravity and drag
- Your average Hang Three glider driver goes up in exactly the same thermal (read crap) conditions that the tugs do and they're INFINITELY more vulnerable to the effects than ANY tug is. No tug was ever correcting a bit of misalignment one moment...
Bill Bryden - 2000/02
Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.
...and nearly upside down the next. There never has been and never will be such a thing as a tug lockout.
- No tug has ever died because a glider fixed whatever was going on up front by giving it the rope or because a chintzy piece of fishing line on a bridle end vaporized at the worst possible time, when it was climbing hard in a near stall situation.
It is interesting to note (or so it seems) that when hang glider pilots try being tow pilots, the most don't last long.
- That's because it's SO MUCH scarier and more dangerous to be at the front end of the string than the back.
- Or so it seems?
- The reason hang glider pilots don't last long as tug drivers is because they almost immediately discover that during the best thermal conditions they're ever gonna see they're tied up pulling hang glider pilots into the air all afternoon. The people who tend to last years as tug drivers are fuckin' dregs like Tracy Tillman, Bo Hagewood, and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney who thrive on big engines to compensate for their little dicks and telling hang glider pilots what total pieces of amateur shit they are.
The sailplane guys have been doing this for a long time, and there are many hang glider pilots and quite a few tug pilots who don't understand what the sailplane guys have learned over the years.
Anybody who learns anything about glider towing over a period of years is a total fucking moron. There's not a single goddam thing involved in it that someone with a mid double digit IQ can't learn in a weekend or two. And you give me an example of one single issue to prove me wrong about that - motherfucker.
It certainly would help if hang glider towing methods and training were standardized to the degree that they are in the sailplane world.
You mean like equipping them with:
- releases that can be blown under load and without having to totally relinquish all control in the process
- calibrated weak links proportional to glider model max certified operating weight and rated to protect against overloading
- front end weak links reliably heavier than the back enders and in compliance with FAA aerotowing regulations
Or bullshit tandem Cone of Safety and weak link break recovery training?
Maybe the Sport Pilot regs will eventually help hang gliding in this regard.
Wanna know what's eventually gonna help get hang glider aerotowing more in line with what sailplanes are doing than anything else in its thirty year history? This pro toad Rooney Linking pin bender:
popping off tow at the worst possible time, when he was climbing hard in a near stall situation, and getting splattered all over the Quest runway.
It helps a lot when a hang glider pilot gets a little training in sailplanes, and even more so if they experience sailplane towing at different locations and encounter very similar systems and techniques.
Both sailplanes and aerotowed hang gliders use properly-rated weaklinks at both ends for a very good reason.
With sailplanes to protect against overloading and with hang gliders to increase the safety of the towing operation - PERIOD.
It is not primarily to prevent a lock out.
What then? A stall?
It is a fallicy...
...to spell fallacy with an "i".
...to think that weak links will reliably prevent a lock out.
Well fuck, what other Industry Standard equipment are we gonna be able to use to reliably prevent a lockout? Our releases are all either within easy reach or incapable of handling loads - or both.
In engineering terms...
Oh PLEASE don't hit us with ENGINEERING terms! I'm still trying to learn the proper way to spell "fallicy".
...the weaklink is not a robust design...
Robust. I don't know what that means. That must be the engineering term.
...it will not break consistently in a wide variety of conditions.
Sorry Tracy, I'm getting a wee bit confused with this concept of a non robust weak link failing to break consistently in a wide variety of conditions. Maybe you could write fourteen pages of total crap on the subject and get it published in the magazine.
What the fuck do you mean it won't break CONSISTENTLY in a wide variety of conditions - douchebag? If your fucking fishing line breaks at 250 pounds towline it'll break CONSISTENTLY at 250 pounds towline no matter what the fuck the "CONDITIONS" are. Or do you always fly with and watch a tension gauge and note breaking points to prove something different? Lying goddam motherfucker.
If it is a lower-rated weak link, it may or may not break prior to or during a lock out--and it is also more likely to break in the heavy turbulence experienced by advanced pilots.
Therefore, an advanced hang glider pilot may opt for a stronger weaklink, with some additional risk.
Well yeah, it might not break when it's supposed to in a lockout.
Might a lower rated weak link also break in perfectly smooth on an inexperienced pilot who lets his nose get a wee bit high, break at the worst possible time, when his glider's climbing hard in a near stall situation...
...and inconvenience him with an arm broken into four pieces?
Conversely, use of a weaker link in turbulance may cause a premature weaklink break, which can also entail some risk.
Bullshit. Just a bit o' inconvenience.
Therefore, the use of a stronger weak link may be warranted.
But won't a stronger weak link overload the glider and blow it up?
If an advanced pilot wishes to use a stronger weak link, the degree of extra strength must be limited. Primarily, the use of a weak link is to save the tug pilot's behind...
Is that what the sailplane guys have learned over the years? Does it say that somewhere in the FAA Glider Flying Handbook?
...by preventing structural and/or control failure--and it should also help to prevent structural and/or control failure of the vehicle being towed.
Steve Kroop - Russell Brown - Bob Lane - Jim Prahl - Campbell Bowen
The tail section of the Dragonfly is designed so that it can accept in-line as well as lateral loads. Furthermore the mast extension, which is part of the tow system, is designed to break away in the event of excessive in-line or lateral loads. The force required to cause a breakaway is roughly equivalent to the force required to break the double weaklink used on the tail bridle. More simply put, the mast would break away long before any structural damage to the aircraft would occur.
...when the structure is designed to fail at the same load as the weak link allows?
- What pound weak link should we use to prevent control failure? Something considerably under...
Secondarily, a lower-rated weaklink may or may not help to prevent a full lockout--just don't count on it.
How 'bout telling us something we CAN use to prevent a lockout - you duplicitous son of a bitch?
The following recommendations are based on our experience over the last 10 years.
Real quick learners, aren't you guys?
We use 4-stroke powered Dragonflies, and our spring/early summer air is very turbulent.
How 'bout moving your flying season to fall / early winter? Wouldn't that help a lot?
Whether pro-tow or 3 point tow, we use and recommend a single stand loop of 130 lb weaklink for general pilots, which is not pre-tied, but uses the 4/5-loop-then-tie method for attachment.
What other strengths were you using during the course of that ten year period that you're recommending against? Did you find that the 120 was breaking too often in heavy turbulence and the 140 could compromise control, produce dangerous lockouts, and cause structural damage?
Pre-tying is less robust, meaning it does not break as consistently as the 4/5-loop-then-tie method.
How do you know, pigfucker?
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.
You've never actually tested anything - or bothered to look at anybody else's test results.
We use a single strand of 150 lb weaklink, again not pre-tied, for heavier, more advanced pilots in very turbulent air.
Really? All the way up to 150? Don't you get a lot of structural damage and loss of control with something that high?
Tommy Thompson - 2014/11/07 01:33:34 UTC
Whitewater
I'v seen aero-tow sights where even H2 pilots are using 2G weaklinks because they don't want to risk ending up at the back of long line of gliders because of a weaklink break.
...two G weak links on Hang Twos? Shouldn't we have heard about a lot of structural damage and crashed gliders and tugs by now?
We use a double loop of 130-lb weaklink for tandems, Scot Maue (big, VERY big), and at the other end for the tug.
Sorry, I'm a bit confused here, Doctor Tracy. If primarily, the use of a weak link is to save the tug pilot's behind by preventing structural and/or control failure--and it should also help to prevent structural and/or control failure of the vehicle being towed, and the heaviest weak link you feel you can use on a solo is 150, then how can you justify using a double loop of 130 for a tandem? Does the tug pilot's behind automatically become more robust when it senses a tandem glider behind it? Is he more immune to structural and/or control failure with a tandem?
And how 'bout the tandem glider? It's stronger so you don't need to worry more about structural failure but since under tow you have only the same amount of muscle being used to control a solo isn't he totally fucked in that department?
Also, the hang glider pilot should only use one weaklink, at the upper attach point in a 3 point bridle system, to prevent tucking should the bridle release at the low end and snag the ring.
And you'd hafta to have an actual functional brain to use a heavier weak link on the bottom so that option's right out.
We have had excellent results using that system.
EXCELLENT!!! No gliders blown up and no possibility of control compromise! You guys have really nailed it. And it only took you ten years!
A tug pilot and/or aerotow operator has every right to inspect the use and quality of the weaklink used by a hang glider pilot, and has a duty to him/her self and the hang glider pilot to make sure that it is not too strong for its primary purpose.
But he's not gonna actually test it to find out its actual strength because...
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.
...with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.
Concurrently, the hang glider pilot has a duty to understand and respect the well-founded concerns of the tow pilot and/or aerotow operator.
Oh yeah. My respect for the well-founded concerns of the tow pilot and/or aerotow operator knows no bounds.
Regards,
Tracy Tillman
Draachen Fliegen Soaring Club
Cloud 9 Field
11088 Coon Lake Rd. W.
Webberville, MI 48892
Suck my dick, Tracy Tillman, Draachen Fliegen Soaring Club, Cloud 9 Field, 11088 Coon Lake Road West, Webberville, Michigan 48892.
Hang Glider Lock-Out! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnrh9-pOiq4
MorphFX - 2011/03/20
A hang glider pilot learning to aerotow starts a mild PIO that leads into a lock-out.
dead
2020/06/05 19:00:00 UTC
Huge expansion of this collection. Started off at 23 stills and stayed that way until now - 114. This was a really important smoking gun video - which, of course, is why it was taken down and why we want all these stills up.
Scene of the crime:
- Southern Hang Gliding Club Aerotow Group
- Plumpton
- 50°53'41.92" N 000°05'02.39" W - 00672 feet MSL
- glider and tug pilots conspicuously unidentified
We're launching/landing to the south and at around 084-10101 we're nicely zoomed in and seeing the American Express Community Stadium at Falmer and the Channel beyond Brighton on the horizon.
Mainstream discussion - the worlds largest hang gliding community only:
25 posts, nary a whisper about the obvious BHPA Tad-O-Link that almost got both planes killed. We don't know flying weight and there doesn't appear to be a Tost weak link at the back end but we do know that BHPA AT weak link maxes are pathetically and lethally safe. 281 pounds (125 decaNewtons) max for a solo AT (up to 150 KG hook-in) with no min. (A Standard Aerotow Weak Link pro toad is 260 pounds and that won't get a heavy solo off the ground in morning sled conditions.)
I think from 002-00220 we can call the release a Koch or knockoff - one stage.
- In that part of the world pretty much a no-brainer anyway.
- If it had been the ubiquitous US bent pin crap it would've been the weak link that would've blown first.
This tow isn't the least bit dangerous - as far as lockout is concerned. Clears the kill zone fine. Starts wallowing a bit about a dozen seconds after initiation, but is still in a good enough position to bring it back for another five or so.
And let's look at a few issues...
- Trike tug - read fast.
- Pro toad glider - read slow.
- The tug (Pilot In Command) ELECTS to tow the glider pro toad.
At 026-01508 the tug's CLEARLY outclimbing the glider. The glider starts getting in trouble, the tug does NOTHING to help him out. He's CLIMBING - he can ease off the gas, nose it down a bit no problem. This is a milder UK version of:
Release occurs between 060-03626 and 061-03627 - we can see the towline parachute pop forward. Note that at that stage the tug isn't fazed to the least extent.
Glider goes a slight degree of upside down during recovery.
Compare/Contrast landings of glider and tug - both in the same brain dead easy Happy Acres putting green LZ and conditions.
What we have covered in this article is practical information and knowledge gleaned from the real world of aerotowing, developed over decades and hundreds of thousands of tows by experts in the field. This information has practical external validity. Hopefully, someone will develop methods and technology that work better than what we are using as standard practice today. Like the methods and technology used today, it is unlikely that the new technology will be dictated onto us as a de jure standard. Rather, to become a de facto standard, that new technology will need to be made available in the marketplace, proven in the real world, and then embraced by our sport.
Or, Trisa, we could just kill some pro toad motherfucker as a sole consequence of the practical information and knowledge gleaned from the real world of aerotowing, developed over decades and hundreds of thousands of tows by experts in the field and having enormous practical external validity and have a whole shitload of people suddenly decide they're happy with something else radically different and start flying it in droves, at all levels, and immediately without the least concern about proving it in the real world.
I can hardly wait for another fourteen page Higher Education article on 200 pound Greenspot and how to tie it so that it breaks consistently in accordance with your revised expectations.
Am I "certain" about anything?
Nope.
However, some things get real obvious when you're doing them all the time. One is that weaklinks do in fact save people's asses.
You're 100% onto it... relying on the skill of the pilot is a numbers game that you'll lose at some point.
...WILL - WITHOUT QUESTION - at some point become totally useless to him. He'll be just another dope on a rope like the rest of us muppets. And since he flies fifty times as much as we muppets do this failure point is gonna come to him fifty times faster. So shouldn't he be using a much SAFER weak link than the rest of us?
Nobody's talking about 130lb weaklinks? (oh please)
Many reasons.
Couple of 'em for ya... they're manufactured, cheap and identifiable.
See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins... I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.
Just how fair is that to all the tug pilots who pull him? When this inevitable skills failure occurs isn't he 54 percent more likely to take his tug pilot down with him?
If there's some legitimacy to his being permitted to fly with a weak link 54 percent heavier than the ones he forces everybody else to fly with shouldn't he also be using a helmet that's 54 percent thinner and a parachute that's 54 percent smaller?
I hate getting "that" phone call. I got it this morning.
I'm considering becoming an asshole. With all the nice people dying, it just seems safer. So kiss my ass.
I met Zach up at Morningside.
Zach was hard not to like... and hard not to like instantly.
He will be sorely missed.
Yeah, recreational hang glider flying, Death of close friends is just a regular part of the job, something ya soon get used to or ya don't last. Real Battle of Britain up there. Glad we have leaders such as yourself up there on the front lines for us.
I know how people react when someone about whom they actually give flying fucks buy it and there's no semblance to that crap you wrote. That was for show while you were preoccupied with the same damage control / cover-up issues that Quest was.
And that's what you really needed to be preoccupied with. The crash that killed Zack Marzec also killed the reputation you had with all the Kinsley Sykes caliber morons in this sport as the undisputed authority on everything hang gliding. Took you about year and a half after that impact to realize that the best you'd be able to do for the rest of your career would be to shut the fuck up, log off, and hope nobody noticed.
As with many changes in avaition, change is approached with a bit of skepticism. Rightfully so. There's something to be said for "tried and true" methods... by strapping on somehting new, you become a test pilot. The unknown and unforseen become your greatest risk factors. It's up to each of us to individually asses the risks/rewards for ourselves.
I'm glad you're so convinced that you're right and the rest of us simpletons are just deluded. Brushing aside your arrogance for the moment....
Test Pilot Wanted
Cut it any way you like it...
It's a new system and no matter how happy you are with it, anyone flying with it is, by definition, a test pilot.
If someone were to show up with a glider that they built themselves, asking for a tow... it really wouldn't matter how well their glider was made would it? You're dealing with a much smaller part of the system, but are you not asking the same thing?
See, I'm not really concerned about how happy YOU are with your system. I'm not concerned with how much YOU think you've thought it through or how well YOU think it has been constucted. Just by coming out to the flight line, I already know that YOU are willing to bet your life on your equipment... just like anyone else that comes out for a tow is.
What you fail to accept is that YOU'RE not the only one involved. YOUR oppinion isn't the only one to be satisfied. You have a raft of people that need to be happy with your gear... Start with the people that run the tow operation (not just the tug pilot) and then add in the people that run the airport... the list grows pretty fast.
So, while you're happy to make these decisions for all these people without consulting them, perhaps other people aren't.
Here's what scares me....
"I didn't think of that"
Those unknowns. Those unexpected failure scenarios. Don't tell me you haven't had them... dig around enough on YOUR posts and you'll find "I didn't think...." Test pilot.
You've made no changes to your original design? Then why did you change it?
You want a reason NOT to go barrelling down an unproven path? SAMPLE SIZE.
See, but you know all this. You're just arguing. You've convinced yourself that you're right and are only chosing to highlight what helps your cause. This is what LAWERS do.
Of course, the problem here is that you LOVE to argue. You don't seem to have the ability to listen, but man can you talk. How do you expect people to listen to you when you won't listen to them?
So go ahead... there ya go... something to argue about... write me a two page article about how right you are. I know it's coming. Nothing will change the fact that you're chosing to be a test pilot.
Think about this...
Basically anything less than the cabling on your glider?
You've got to be kidding me!
Sure that makes it all fit into your definition of weaklinks having a "sole purpose".
That's what I mean about reality vs definitions.
You're making things less safe because your FLAWED definitions.
Go ahead and try to improve your release... whatever. Just don't tell me that weaklinks need to be stronger! That's just flat out ignorant.
Just because you think about something a lot or talk about something a LOT doesn't make you right... you can easily chase the wrong idea around for years.
Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC
No, I'm not being nice. No, I do not feel the need to be nice. You're trying to convince people to be less safe. I don't want to be on the other end of the rope when someone listening to this drivel smashes in.
I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.
Please tell me again what's wrong with the wheel? Why you keep trying to reinvent it?
Yes, please fall back on the "I'm just saying they could be stronger" bull when you've made it quite clear that anything lower than cable (1200lb) is acceptable.
The simple fact is that you're not improving the system.
You're trying to make it more convenient and trying to convince yourself that you should be towing with a stronger weaklink.
First, I sent Steve a bunch of info offline. Hopefully it clears things up a bit for him.
Unfortunately, he's stumbled onto some of Tad's old rantings and got suckered in. So most of this was just the same old story of debunking Tad's lunacy... again .
See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.
Sure "there's always room for improvement", but you have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here.
There isn't going to be some "oh gee, why didn't I think of that?" moment. The obvious answers have already been explored... at length.
Anyway...
Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.
It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.
It was already worked out by the time I arrived.
The reason it sticks?
Trail and error.
Every now and then someone comes along with the "new" idea of a stronger weaklink. Eventually, they scare themselves with it and wind up back with one that has a very proven track record. I mean really... no exaggeration... hundreds of thousands of tows.
Say what you will, but if you want to argue with *that* much history, well, you better have one hell of an argument... which you don't.
It amuses me how many people want to be test pilots.
It amuses me even more that people...
A) Don't realize that "test pilot" is exactly what they're signing up for and B) actually testing something is a far more involved process than "I think I just try out my theory and see what happens".
Allow me to repeat... hundreds of thousands of tows.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/15 06:48:18 UTC
So what?
You can scare yourself in a variety of ways.
In your book however, anything less than the cable strength of the glider is OK?
Yeah, sorry... nope. Not behind me at least... go be a test pilot behind someone else.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC
Ok, keyboard in hand.
I've got a bit of time, but I'm not going to write a dissertation... so either choose to try to understand what I'm saying, or (as is most often the case) don't.
I don't care.
Here's a little bit of bitter reality that ya'll get to understand straight off. I won't be sugar coating it, sorry.
You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.
I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.
And yes. It is my call. PERIOD.
On tow, I am the PIC.
Now, that cuts hard against every fiber of every HG pilot on the planet and I get that.
Absolutely no HG pilot likes hearing it. Not me, not no one. BUT... sorry, that's the way it is.
Accept it and move on.
Not only can you not change it, it's the law... in the very literal sense.
So, you're quite right in your thinking in your example. The person you have to convince is me (or whoever your tuggie is).
I've had this conversation with many people.
We've had various outcomes.
I can tell you what my general ideas and rules are, but you do not need to agree with them nor do you get to dictate anything to me... if I'm not happy, you ain't getting towed by me. Why I'm not happy doesn't matter. It's my call, and if I'm having so much as a bad hair day, then tough. You can go get someone else. I won't be offended. Each tuggie is different, and I've had someone ask me to tow them with some stuff that I wasn't happy with and I told him point blank... go ask the other guy, maybe he'll do it.
I can tell you that for me, you're going to have a hell of a time convincing me to tow you with *anything* home-made.
"But I love my mouth release! It's super-delux-safe"... that's great, but guess what?
I've towed at places that use different weak links than greenspot. They're usually some other form of fishing line. Up in Nelson (New Zealand), they don't have greenspot, so they found a similar weight fishing line. They replace their link every single tow btw... every one, without question or exception... that's just what the owner wants and demands. Fine by me. If it wasn't, then I wouldn't tow for them and I wouldn't be towed by them. That's his place and he gets to make that call. Pretty simple.
Up at Morningside, they're using that new orange weaklink. It's a bit stronger and it has to be sewn or glued so it doesn't slip when unloaded.
If you're within the FAA specs and you're using something manufactured, then you're going to have a far better time convincing me to tow you.
My general rule is "no funky shit". I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots. Have I towed a few test pilots? Yup. Have I towed them in anything but very controlled conditions? Nope. It's a damn high bar. I've told more to piss off than I've told yes. I'll give you an example... I towed a guy with the early version of the new Lookout release. But the Tad-o-link? Nope.
So I hope that sheds some light on the situation.
But again, every tuggie's different and every situation is different.
What doesn't change however is that it's my call, not yours.
And it's my job to be the "bad guy" sometimes.
Sorry. It's just the way it is.
My issues aren't with people using things other than 130lb greenspot, it's with "test pilots".
So now you have those test pilots that you hate so much coming outta your ass. We had a proven system that worked and then people suddenly started reinventing a perfectly good wheel.
Decades and quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows on 130 pound Greenspot, a HUGE track record and not one single incident, not so much as a scraped knee, ever attributed to it's use. Aspirin should have a track record like that.
And suddenly we have everybody and his dog going to two hundred for no stated reason whatsoever - 'cept POSSIBLY that it's less inconvenient (IF we can really even count that).
No testing program, trail and error period, qualified test pilots... Just suddenly a bunch of pilots deciding they were happy with it! Great! Let's start using it, throw it on a bunch of Twos, see what happens with it.
Less than two and a half years after a fourteen page article in the magazine on the wonders of 130 and here we are. Go figure.
Well, given your intense lifelong hatred of test pilots the next decade or two are gonna be pretty unpleasant for you - not to mention incredibly dangerous. Have you considered contacting USHGA and/or the FAA? That won't win you any popularity contests but I'm just not seeing any other options for someone as deeply dedicated to hang gliding safety as you are.
Must be totally agonizing for you watching what's going on and being cut loose by old friends like Davis. Good luck and the very best of wishes.
I hate getting "that" phone call. I got it this morning.
I'm considering becoming an asshole. With all the nice people dying, it just seems safer. So kiss my ass.
Hope you followed up on your option of becoming an asshole. That'll make the tidal wave of "those" phone calls you're on the brink of getting a lot easier to take. Try spending time with Davis, Steve Kroop, Bo Hagewood, Jim Gaar, Brad Gryder, Bart Weghorst, Ryan Voight, Tracy Tillman, Stuart Caruk to help accelerate you through the process.
Wow, there's just so much wrong here... I won't even bother.
And everything was absolutely perfect at Quest on the afternoon of 2013/02/02. And yet one of your tandem aerotow instructor pro toad Rooney Linker buddies ended up dead as a doornail. Got any thoughts on why?
A couple things to take note of though... notice how long the pilot held onto the tow before giving it up.
Notice how high he was and how not at all it mattered.
It's easy to sit back and say what he should have done...
The Press - 2006/03/15
The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) is urgently pushing for new hang-gliding industry standards after learning a hang-gliding pilot who suffered serious injuries in a crash three weeks ago had not clipped himself on to the glider.
Extreme Air tandem gliding pilot James (Jim) Rooney safely clipped his passenger into the glider before departing from the Coronet Peak launch site, near Queenstown, CAA sports and recreation manager Rex Kenny said yesterday.
However, he took off without attaching himself.
In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.
Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.
...but do realize that THIS is instinct.... when things go badly, you're brain locks up as well.
- I missed the part where things went badly. He took off, flew, and landed smelling like a rose. Then he went back up and did some more tows without any problems all the way up to release altitude.
- I also missed the part where his brain locked up.
- Your brain has been locked up since birth and before.
We all know "object fixation"... this is a slightly different but similar mental process.
Go fuck yourself - you smug arrogant little prick.
And yeah, notice how FAST it happens...
Yeah. About nine seconds.
Bill Bryden - 2000/02
Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.
Blindingly fast.
"all good... almost got it... almost... OH SHIT!"
Fuck you. He NEVER thought it was "all good" or that he almost had it and totally realized he was going into a lockout he realized would be of no consequence due to his altitude.
mapjim - 2011/03/24 21:09:25 UTC
One of his first tows, I believe.
Jim Rooney - 2011/03/24 21:23:26 UTC
On a topless? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
This one just keeps getting better!
To start with I have to mention that it is my opinion that when we start out on a line, whether it is surfing a wave, starting the roll down a trail on a mountain bike or launching a hang glider on a dolly, the start of the movement lacks good control until some speed is gathered to gain that control. At that point, the surfer, rider or pilot has the control to "fix" the track, make a correction and things work out fine. This was not the case on that day.
There are a couple of things that could have been changed and in hindsight; these may have avoided this incident. I felt that my angle of attack was too high, but thought that the powerful tug would pull me through the vulnerable phase of the roll without incident. Secondly, I should have waited for a wind cycle that was lesser in velocity and more from the direction that we were towing toward. Competitions don't really afford the time for a pilot to select a launch cycle or wait for conditions to improve.
At the instant that the roll commenced a gust of wind from the left occurred and lifted my left wing. I still had hold of the tubing in the cart as the left front wheel lifted. The dolly was going to the right. I must have released my hold on the left tubing to settle the cart level. At that point in time, my speed bar shifted to the right at about a 20 degree angle settling the inner portion of the speed bar onto the right chock and increasing the bank angle to the right as I was accelerating. The lowered position of my feet may have restricted my input of shifting my legs to the left to counteract the banking to the right. I pushed out to release myself and the glider from the cart. At this point the angle was increasing and the right wing tip hit the ground. My head was at about chest high, accelerating in what could be described as a low level lock-out, with no good control. I saw that I was going to hit the ground nearly head first and balled-up for impact. I hit hard, the weak-link broke and I broke the left down tube and the glider rolled on the right leading edge transitioning to the left leading edge before coming to rest kind of backward.
I impacted the ground on the right side of my helmet and right shoulder simultaneously, then sliding on my left side to a stop. I had pain in my right shoulder and collar bone, lower neck, left scapula and center of my back. I elected to just take it easy for a few days and I flew again the following Friday. I had intended to fly the task, but once I was in the air, it became apparent that I would not be fit for flight after up to three hours. I landed at the airport after 30 minutes. The next day (Saturday) I flew for about 40 minutes before the competition pilots would launch. Still pretty sore. The following Tuesday (6/10/14) I serious pain in my back at work and decided to go to the hospital for some test. At the hospital I had several x-rays and then a CT scan. They found that I did not have any fractures but I was complaining of the symptoms commensurate with a compressed or damaged disk. They prescribed muscle relaxer, opiate pain reliever and a steroid to reduce swelling. So far so good. I feel that this incident could have had a more serious outcome and I am glad that I was not injured any more than I was.
...get? You and your douchebag tug driver buddies towing pro toads on an improvised runway in a gusty fifteen plus ninety cross? Did John start flying again or was that the end of his career?
Jim Rooney - 2011/03/25 02:16:52 UTC
I would never tow anyone for their first tow on a topless.
But you'd have no problem pulling the crap like you assholes were doing at the last ECC.
I've been asked a number of times and all I can think is WTF???? Are you NUTS?!
Yeah, those fuckin' topless pilots are all a bunch of total morons. Chances of them surviving a first tow without tandem Cone of Safety training are about one in three.
You're going to go do something that you have no experience doing AND try to do it with the most difficult equipment available????
I guess not even the bent pin releases within easy reach you assholes sell...
I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
...will compensate for something like that.
People need to check their egos at the door.
Got yours checked, motherfucker? Haven't heard much out of you in a while.
Towing is serious shit and I don't give a shit how much time you've got on your little racecar... ya need to step back and learn on a Falcon.
Jim
How did any of us manage to get along and survive as long as we did before you came along with your supernaturally keen intellect and aptitude for aviation?
PS... so yeah, what Jackie said
2011/03/28 20:27:06 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Marco Weber
If you're gonna blow off tow which is worse? Rolled...
