Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39901
Coronet Peak

Davis Straub - 2014/11/10 17:11:04 UTC

Queenstown
(Coronet Peak, QLD, AU)
http://ozreport.com/GoogleMap.php?map&points=-44.928455,168.735988,Coronet+Peak,+QLD,%20AU

It's the NEW ZEALAND's South Island - you moron.

Google view here:
https://www.google.co.nz/maps/@-44.9288958,168.7354839,3a,90y,210.09h,90.32t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sgc5JFrCQKEMAAAQfCa9hKQ!2e0!3e11?hl=en

Thanks to Jim Rooney.

Yeah, thanks to Jim Rooney. The people down there where so overjoyed when he finally got out of the hospital that there was a big movement to rename it Rooney Peak.

Rodger Hoyt - 2014/11/11 07:32:27 UTC

Hmm, when it was hot in Australia this year, Davis touted it as undeniable evidence of global warming.

Yet I see plenty of snow in this panorama (even at takeoff level), yet no mention of global cooling.

I suppose the residents of the southern US states such as GA, TN, SC etc that got hit with up to a foot of snow on November 1st would have opinions as well.

Fuckin' asshole.

Davis Straub - 2014/11/11 16:15:15 UTC

A few years ago I was on the southern island in December.

The southern island of Australia? Tasmania?

It was freezing cold.

Jim Rooney - 2014/11/17 18:21:05 UTC

Hahahah.

Hahahah. Look what just crawled back out of the woodwork.

Um, snow is normal in alpine mountains in early spring ya know?

The alpine mountains of WHAT? Australia or New Zealand?

We've had snow on takeoff in January (mid Summer here). That's pretty unusual as we're normally flying in shorts and t-shirts in January.

Wanna know what ELSE is unusual?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39719
Building hang gliding back up

Tommy Thompson - 2014/11/07 01:33:34 UTC

I'v seen aero-tow sights where even H2 pilots are using 2G weaklinks because they don't want to risk ending up at the back of long line of gliders because of a weaklink break.

Any chance we can get a comment...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

Well, it won't take long with that system before we've got a lot more dead pilots out there.
So they can stuff their philosophical purity bs... cuz I have no desire to tow someone to their death, no matter how willing they may be.

I'm not playing with this stuff in my head and just dismissing it. There's been a lot that's gone into this system.

I've seen too many people walk the "strong link" road only to find out the reality of things.
Fortunately, they've been unscathed, but there have been a lot of soiled underpants in the process.

...on that? Maybe a projection on the number of deaths we can expect and when we should start expecting them?

I'm happy to discuss this stuff.
But I'm sick to death of arguing about it.

You could just discuss this stuff. You wouldn't hafta argue about it any more.

But then, this is New Zealand...

Oh, so it IS New Zealand. Not the South Island of Queensland, Australia?

...and we get some crazy weather here. Now, if you want to talk about something that is noticeable it's the ozone hole... that can be felt quite clearly here.

No, I'd MUCH rather talk about all those new Hang Twos flying two G weak links and how they've all managed to have been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.

Good fun.
Jim

Fuckin' worm.

BIG mistake, Jim. Should've AT LEAST waited until:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39857
How pilot proficiency relates to weaklink G rating

had dropped back a page or two so you could've pretended you hadn't seen it.

P.S. As long as you're doing imagery of Coronet Peak is there any chance you could post that video of you dangling from the basetube and diving your tandem glider and passenger into the powerlines? I think there are a lot of people who would find it very educational.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Marc Fink - 2007/05/19 12:58:31 UTC

Tad,

The simple fact is that hundreds of thousands of tows using weaklinks in their present configuration successfully bely your contentions that we're all crazy for towing that way.

Simply put, your statements are irresponsible and are based on your personal interpretations.

I am a tow operator--as well as a "towee." I also do aerotow tandems. Using greenline or similar line, which generally tests at 125 lbs +- 50 lbs is widely accepted because it simply works well and relatively predicatably for the enormous range of conditions and applications in towing. If this weren't true, then accident rates would be much higher and these kinds of weaklinks would have been abandoned along time ago.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

A 400 lb load limit for a solo tow is absurd.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Davis Straub - 2014/08/20 19:48:26 UTC

Many of us are now using 200 lb test line from Cortland.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Davis Straub - 2014/09/01 15:22:41 UTC

I can tell you that I fly with a 200lb weaklink on one side of my 750lb pro tow bridle. I am happy with it.

Miserable cowardly little piece o' shit.

[Tad Eareckson]

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

I witnessed a tug pilot descend low over trees. His towline hit the trees and caught. His weak link broke but the bridle whipped around the towline and held it fast. The pilot was saved by the fact that the towline broke!

http://ozreport.com/3.066
Weaklinks

Davis Straub - 1999/06/06

During the US Nationals I wrote a bit about weaklinks and the gag weaklinks that someone tied at Quest Air. A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.

The problem with strong links (neither Bobby Bailey nor I was aware at the time of the US Nationals that pilots were doing this) is that they endanger the tug pilot. If the hang glider pilot goes into a lock out, and doesn't break the weaklink (because there isn't one), they can stall the tug. I assume that Bobby Bailey won't hear about the use of strong links at the US Nationals until he reads it here.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/05/31 13:27:30 UTC

Wow... this thread is still going?
Hahahahaha... as if this is shocking?

Guys, take all your equations and stuff them. We all know bumbelbees don't fly right?

Any tug pilot will tell you that this is all bunk. Weaklinks don't "protect" you from lockout, but I'll be damned if I listen to someone tell me that they don't break during lockout.

Try to get behind me without a weaklink... try... I will not tow you.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/20 22:25:38 UTC

Something to bear in mind... the tug's weaklink is three strand.

For clarity... A normal single loop weaklink would be considered two. A tandem double loop is considered four.

In the tandem setup, the "weaklink" in the system is at the tug end, not the glider.

Ya'll seem to be missing this.
Once you go beyond three strand... you're not using a weaklink. If the weaklink goes, you're getting the rope.
Paul found this out the hard way in Texas.

Theory's wonderful and all, but reality is not forgiving.
Ask yourself... are you willing to bet your life on your theory?
Dress accordingly.

Keep fighting Janni. He'll never listen to you, but it's entertaining to watch

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Oh how many times I have to hear this stuff.
I've had these exact same arguments for years and years and years.
Nothing about them changes except the new faces spouting them.

It's the same as arguing with the rookie suffering from intermediate syndrome.
They've already made up their mind and only hear that which supports their opinion.

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.

Nobody's talking about 130lb weaklinks? (oh please)
Many reasons.
Couple of 'em for ya... they're manufactured, cheap and identifiable.

See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins... I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.

So please, find me something... that you didn't make... that I can go out and buy from a store... that's rated and quality controlled... that fits your desire for a "non one size fits all" model, and *maybe* we can talk.
But you see... I'm the guy you've got to convince.
(or whoever your tug pilot may be... but we all tend to have a similar opinion about this)

You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.

"light" weaklink issues?
"I had to land"... boo hoo.
Oh, I thought of an other one... I smashed into the earth after my weaklink let go cuz I fly as badly as I tow, and I'm only still here cuz my weaklink didn't let me pile in harder.

Your anecdotal opinion is supposed to sway me?
You forget, every tow flight you take requires a tug pilot... we see EVERY tow.
We know who the rockstars are and who the muppets are.
Do you have any idea how few of us there are?
You think we don't talk?
I'll take our opinion over yours any day of the week.

Ok, I'm tired of this.
I'm not really sure who you're trying to convince.
Again, I don't care to argue this stuff.
I'll answer actual questions if you're keen to actually hear the answers, but arguing with me? Really? Have fun with that.

Gimme a call when you think of something that we haven't already been through years ago... cuz to date, you have yet to come up with anything new. Well, maybe it's new to you I guess. It's old as dirt to me though.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Davis Straub - 2014/08/20 19:48:26 UTC

Many of us are now using 200 lb test line from Cortland.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Davis Straub - 2014/09/01 15:22:41 UTC

I can tell you that I fly with a 200lb weaklink on one side of my 750lb pro tow bridle. I am happy with it.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39719
Building hang gliding back up

Tommy Thompson - 2014/11/07 01:33:34 UTC

I'v seen aero-tow sights where even H2 pilots are using 2G weaklinks because they don't want to risk ending up at the back of long line of gliders because of a weaklink break.

You fucking tug drivers and aerotow operators are off the scale stupid clones, there isn't so much as a plant on the planet with less adaptive capability.

These "absurd" 200 pound weak links that many of us are now happy with WILL quickly push that damnable idiot 130 out of existence - along with the total crap about more skilled pilots being able to safely handle heavier ratings.

If you continue using your idiot fucking three strand tow mast breakaway protectors you will effectively be towing one hundred percent of your gliders without weak links.

If you get tired of losing towlines and go back to Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey's idiot fucking initial tandem weak link and tow mast breakaway concept it'll be a coin toss as to who ends up with the towline. You'll effectively be towing fifty percent of your gliders without weak links but since the blow tension will be the same anyway we might as well call it a hundred.

And regardless of what you do on the front end you're gonna stay with a double loop of 130 as your standard tandem aerotow weak link - even though it blows at the same tension as the 200 Greenspot. It looks and sounds like it's heavier and you'll continue to claim that it blows at whatever figure you feel is convenient. And if you put the same weak link on a five hundred pound tandem glider that you're handing to a two hundred pound little girl glider you're gonna look so stupid that even Juan Saa's eyebrows will be raised.

But lemme embarrass you with that anyway...

http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Quest Air Aerotow FAQ

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.

The strength of the perfect one-size-fits-all tandem aerotow weak link was derived solely from the strength of the perfect one-size-fits-all solo aerotow weak link. As we have recently discovered - after several decades of experience and quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows conducted by numerous aerotow operators across the county - that the perfect one-size-fits-all solo aerotow weak link is 54 percent heavier than was initially believed then how come the tandem weak link and...

http://ozreport.com/5.126
Flytec Dragonfly

USAFlytec - 2001/07/14

Steve Kroop - Russell Brown - Bob Lane - Jim Prahl - Campbell Bowen

The tail section of the Dragonfly is designed so that it can accept in-line as well as lateral loads. Furthermore the mast extension, which is part of the tow system, is designed to break away in the event of excessive in-line or lateral loads. The force required to cause a breakaway is roughly equivalent to the force required to break the double weaklink used on the tail bridle. More simply put, the mast would break away long before any structural damage to the aircraft would occur.

...all the crap up front that's based on it aren't being beefed up proportionally - and, preferably, in compliance with FAA aerotowing regulations?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31738
Calculating weak link strength

michael170 - 2014/12/07 03:49:36 UTC

Mike Badley - 2014/08/21 21:31:04 UTC

If you never break weak links and you sometimes WISH they would while you're pulling in for all your worth yelling SHiiiii... well, step down in size.

You're confusing the weak link with a release mechanism.

I suspect that you don't have a brain in your head.

2014/12/07 06:19:12 UTC - Sink This! -- Paul Hurless

Whatsamattah Paul? Found that if you post something with words in it you'll get your head blown off?

Jack Axaopoulos - 2014/12/08 02:20:42 UTC

Aaaand Warning #2.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/08 18:40:12 UTC

aaaaaaaand... here we go again.

What is going on with you?

Probably just doesn't like seeing total morons posting the kinds of idiot recommendations that get people killed.

Youre going to get banned.

Big surprise. And the percentage of Jack Show participants who know what an apostrophe is and how and where to use it will drop twenty percent.

Take a break.

Like this guy:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


- who undoubtedly subscribed to the kind of crap Mike wrote - did? Like the very long and conspicuous break you took...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12682
Landing on your feet (for AEROTOW)- So Dangerous

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/06/29 14:26:26 UTC

OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!?
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!!

I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for sh*t.... LEARN TO LAND That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh???

...while the discussion of that fatality was going on?

Fuck you, Jack.

[Tad Eareckson]

Discuss-- aerodynamics of extreme loadings on flex-wings
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32183

Gordon Rigg - 2014/12/17 09:50:37 UTC

The most radical lockout I had was high on the tow.

I doubt it. I'm guessing you mean after you'd gained a comfortable amount of altitude.

I was behind a fast trike. As I was reasonably high I spent longer trying to recover rather than releasing early as I would have if lower.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21313
Lockout

Jim Rooney - 2011/03/24 20:48:15 UTC

Wow, there's just so much wrong here... I won't even bother.


A couple things to take note of though... notice how long the pilot held onto the tow before giving it up. It's easy to sit back and say what he should have done... but do realize that THIS is instinct.... when things go badly, you're brain locks up as well.

We all know "object fixation"... this is a slightly different but similar mental process.

And yeah, notice how FAST it happens... "all good... almost got it... almost... OH shit!"

mapjim - 2011/03/24 21:09:25 UTC

One of his first tows, I believe.

Jim Rooney - 2011/03/24 21:23:26 UTC

On a topless? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
This one just keeps getting better!

After the release (or weak link break, not sure which) the G force certainly did not return to normal and I performed quite a radical wing over, loop type manoeuvre with loads of G. It took a few seconds to regain normal flight responses.

- Must've been using one of those Tad-O-Links that many of us in the US are now happy with - not one of those nice safe legal BHPA links which, if you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), will break before you can get into too much trouble. Serves you right - motherfucker. Wish you'd been lower, thought you could've fixed a bad thing and didn't wanna start over, and died - or, better yet, survived long enough for Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney to visit you in the hospital so you could begin to hear what Davis Linkers have been telling you all along.

- So you seem to be saying that the max G loading occurred WELL AFTER your reached the point at which either your dangerously understrength bullshit BHPA Link - quite probably sub US legal - blew or you would've expected it to blow. Correct me if I'm wrong.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links

Steve Seibel - 2012/08/18 16:22:36 UTC

Based on my cumulative experience so far I would opt for a SLIGHTLY weaker weak link (those loads got alarmingly high!).

Any comment, Steve? Not only is he not getting enough lockout protection from his BHPA mandated piece o' crap to be able to survive one down in the kill zone but it doesn't even limit the max Gs he's gonna experience.

Thank you Gordon. Small gold mine. Try to get it on video next time.

Somebody try to get his glider model and size, hook-in weight, and weak link strength. Wouldn't hurt to know one or two point as well. I'm guessing the former.
---
P.S. - 2014/12/17 13:33:00 UTC

Maybe we DO have a video of this one...

Hang Glider Lock-Out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnrh9-pOiq4
MorphFX - 2011/03/20
A hang glider pilot learning to aerotow starts a mild PIO that leads into a lock-out.
dead
02-00319
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7523/15601000807_705ab49977_o.png


http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5606/15600335029_3c234e6828_o.png
14-03708
http://www.kitestrings.org/post6995.html#p6995

Mike?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32183
Discuss-- aerodynamics of extreme loadings on flex-wings

Steve Seibel - 2014/12/16 17:23:24 UTC

Not to take this discussion in too many directions but--

Lockouts on tow are different-- the line pulls your body to the side but this force goes to the hang point and makes no roll torque. So you only have a few inches left to weight-shift before you are touching the down tube-- and then none at all. You aren't pulling hard with your muscles because you are already full over with no more room to go. Once your body is pressed against the control frame and you haven't stopped the roll, from that point on the tow line might as well be tied to the down tube-- things are going to keep getting more and more exciting till something breaks or releases! After release (or weak link break) the forces are like normal flight-- initially a high G-load because you are flying fast and steeply banked-- in the few lockouts I've developed that progressed to a very steep bank I never had the sense that the glider wasn't responding normally after release-- in cases of bad outcomes I think the ground just gets in the way too soon-- but maybe it's not always that simple?

Lockouts on tow...

I'd make a crack about lockouts OFF tow but...

04-1409
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3903/14555125331_c930110666_o.png


http://www.kitestrings.org/post6233.html#p6233

...the line pulls your body to the side but this force goes to the hang point and makes no roll torque.

Bullshit. You and your glider feel a sideways vector and trim to the resultant of gravity and the tow tention. The glider rolls in the direction...

10-1900
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7528/15787746292_f64cccaf31_o.png


...you wish it wouldn't. If it didn't we could all become really excellent tow pilots just by taking our hands off the basetube.

So you only have a few inches left to weight-shift before you are touching the down tube-- and then none at all.

Rubbish. The misaligned towline tension just overwhelms your control authority.

After release...

...if you have something you can actually blow in an emergency situation...

...(or weak link break)...

...if you're using some Industry Standard piece of shit within easy reach...

...the forces are like normal flight--

...assuming you haven't hit the ground yet...

...initially a high G-load because you are flying fast and steeply banked-- in the few lockouts I've developed that progressed to a very steep bank...

Because you're one of those assholes who flies with a brake lever within easy reach on the downtube.

...I never had the sense that the glider wasn't responding normally after release-- in cases of bad outcomes I think the ground just gets in the way too soon-- but maybe it's not always that simple?

No, that part you got right. And if you're LUCKY - like most people - your flying career will end before you get into a lockout situation low enough to matter.

Steve Seibel - 2014/12/17 17:01:38 UTC

Re lockouts on tow: I didn't mean to suggest that the G-load vanishes on line break/release.

"Lines" don't ever break on aerotow.

From wing's viewpoint, G-load/lift is generated by airspeed and angle-of-attack. In free flight, G-load and lift are essentially the same, or at least vary in lockstep. On tow, as the glider is banking away from the towplane, the towline absorbs much of the glider's lift...

The towline is Spectra and isn't absorbing anything. It's transmitting tension to the tug.

...and changes the acceleration resulting from a given lift force. The pilot doesn't feel a G-load corresponding to the full lift force that the wing is generating. The towline breaks, and suddenly you "feel" the full lift force/G-load that the wings were generating. Yowza! Yes indeed the glider can enter a wingover-- the nose will rise rapidly unless the bank angle is very steep, or beyond vertical (worst case!).

So how good an idea is it to push out in a lockout to use your weak link as an instant hands free release?

In fact in my experience I DON'T WANT to roll level too quick or the flight path would curve sharply upward due to all that excess airspeed and lift/G-load. Even with the bar "stuffed". Obviously I'd be thinking differently if I were about to hit the ground.

Bullshit...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.

During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?

Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release

You just fly away. Ryan and...

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC

As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.

You can tell me till you're blue in the face about situations where it theoretically won't let go or you can drone on and on about how "weaklinks only protect the glider" (which is BS btw)... and I can tell ya... I could give a crap, cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.

...Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney have both assured us that you just fly away.

So due to concerns about zoom-climbing into a loop, and desire to reduce G-load, and non-proximity of the ground, I'm sure I always stuffed the bar immediately after line break if not before, on the handful of lockouts I've exerienced.

How are you gonna stuff the bar AND blow your instant hands free release? Also...

03-02421
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7200/14097626583_03972773c6_o.png


What if you're a pro toad and have to keep the bar constantly stuffed just to stay level with the tug?

If this "locked-in" high-G spiral thing is real, a lockout on tow would seem as good a way as any to induce it.

Bullshit. If that were true we'd be seeing a lot of carnage from all these disciples of Ryan and Rooney...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

Ditto dude.

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.

I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.

Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.

So, argue all you like.
I don't care.
I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.
I could be more political about it, but screw it... I'm not in the mood to put up with tender sensibilities... Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing. I've got thousands upon thousands of tows under my belt. I don't know everything, but I'll wager the house that I've got it sussed a bit better than an armchair warrior.

...actuating their instant hands free releases in lockout emergencies. And now that so many of us have decided we're happy with 200 pound Greenspot...

Especially if the pilot doesn't pull in. But I don't think the dynamics would kick in until after the line breaks, freeing the flight path to curve as normal in response to the lift from the banked wing. See my earlier post for what I feel is happening before the line breaks.

This thread sure has morphed in many directions!

So how come when you hear all this total crap from all these Jack and Davis Show motherfuckers...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12682
Landing on your feet (for AEROTOW)- So Dangerous

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/06/29 14:26:26 UTC

OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!?
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!!

I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for sh*t.... LEARN TO LAND That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh???

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22233
Looking for pro-tow release

Zack C - 2011/06/16 03:14:35 UTC

I've never aerotowed pilot-only, but it is my understanding that this configuration pulls the pilot forward significantly, limiting the amount he can pull in further.

Davis Straub - 2011/06/16 05:11:44 UTC

Incorrect understanding.

...you just sit back and don't say anything?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32212
Landing a Sail-Plane Down-Wind

Tom Lyon - 2014/12/22 05:53:47 UTC

Landing downwind is certainly to be avoided in a sailplane if possible. However, it does have to be done sometimes, especially if the tow rope breaks at an altitude high enough to do a 180, but not high enough to come around and land into the wind, and the downwind landing is the best decision.

So you fly with a tow rope that breaks before your weak link? Or do you just not bother using a designated weak link?

If you're not using a weak link at the glider end you should really consider doing so. 'Cause while tow rope breaks can be extremely dangerous a weak link break is never anything more than an inconvenience and always increases the safety of the towing operation.

I've landed in a very mild downwind of 5 mph or so after a simulated rope break and didn't notice anything unusual.

Next time simulate a weak link break. Even more of a nonevent.

But in stronger winds, it gets a lot trickier. Obviously, airspeed is most important since the groundspeed could be wicked fast and confuse the pilot. But once on the ground in a downwind landing, it's very easy to lose control of the aircraft because the wind coming from behind the aircraft is hitting the control surfaces from the opposite direction. The controls "reverse" at some point if the wind is strong enough.

So, my instructor told me that the most important thing once you're on the ground is to get the sailplane stopped.

You needed to be told that by your instructor?

Once I'm fully on the ground but still going fast, I'm full on the brakes and the nose skid.

As opposed to on a hang glider on which you'd be stopped on your face with a broken downtube and dislocated shoulder.

I know of one accident where the instructor pulled the release to simulate a rope break during a biennial flight review (BFR), but the wind was really strong. The pilot got the glider turned around, but it was going to fast that they took out the fence at the opposite end of the runway.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 17:34:33 UTC

As I said, I've been through this a million freaking times.
Which is ok.
I don't mind clarifying it for people.

What I do mind is that when there is disagreement, it is generally NOT me that is wrong. Yet people persist in telling me bla bla bla. I don't care if people disagree with me... cuz I know they're wrong. It makes me sad.

Those people can get stuffed... they're wrong.

Remember, a weak link improves safety.
Say it over and over and over in your head until it sinks in.

Good thing they did that drill, wasn't it Tom? If they hadn't the pilot would never have known he wasn't really up to snuff on stopping it in those circumstances.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

Ditto for the instructor.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3661
Flying the 914 Dragonfly

Jim Rooney - 2008/12/06 20:01:49 UTC

You will only ever need full throttle for the first fifty feet of a tandem tow. Don't ever pull a solo at full throttle... they will not be able to climb with you. You can tow them at 28 mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weaklinks will go left and right.

You mean like?:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

Lessee...

- I measured the thrust pulling my max loaded HPAT 158 to be 125 pounds normal and 155 with the turbo kicked in. That's a 24 percent increase.

- And everybody has suddenly and inexplicably decided to be happier with the 200 pound Greenspot than with the beloved 130 standard. That's a 54 percent increase and the same as the standard double loop of 130 on the tandem. Same weak link on lighter and cleaner gliders. And pro toads get a 15 percent boost over gliders with SAFE bridles.

So I'm guessing 914s now CAN pull solos at full throttle without weak links going left and right. Another pearl of wisdom from Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney permanently down the toilet with its author.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.

"light" weaklink issues?
"I had to land"... boo hoo.
Oh, I thought of an other one... I smashed into the earth after my weaklink let go cuz I fly as badly as I tow, and I'm only still here cuz my weaklink didn't let me pile in harder.

Guess what, Jim...

I one hundred percent guarantee you that we will NEVER AGAIN hear about ANY kind of weak link incident. And here's the ironclad logic supporting that prediction:

- The aerotow industry, commercial hang gliding, USHGA *NEVER* admits it's been wrong about *ANYTHING* - hang checks, backup loops, locking carabiners, Dragonfly tow mast breakaway protectors, infallible standard aerotow weak links, instant hands free releases, tug drivers making good decisions in the interest of our safety, bent pin releases within easy reach, pro toad bridles, upright approaches, standup spot landings, narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place, Donnell Hewett, Dennis Pagen, focused pilots, you name it. Well... Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney - but that was a total no brainer.

- As blindingly obvious as it was that your idiot pro toad Rooney Linking buddy Zack Marzec was killed by a combination of his pro toad bridle and Rooney Link, the Industry had to invent the total bullshit cause of the fatality as being an invisible dust devil - while as quietly as possible multiplying the Rooney Link by a factor of 1.54.

- The new two hundred pound Happy Link will quickly drive the standard Rooney Link into total oblivion - if it hasn't already.

- Even if some new moron gets critically or fatally whip-inconvenienced back into the runway by his Rooney Link it will be 'cause of muppet error 'cause the old Industry Standard was also perfectly safe and people were also quite happy with it over the course of an incredibly long track record.

- If a glider with a Tad-O-Link behind a high tug goes totally upside down...

42-05328
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7309/11414153476_3ca8cc4036_o.png


http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7353/11414310093_ddeecbcbfa_o.png
47-05508

...it won't be 'cause of the Happy Link (or the tug). It'll be 'cause the glider driver was a total moron 'cause...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

The accepted standards and practices changed.

...the accepted standards and practices changed.

- Even if somebody locks out an slams in on a five hundred pound towline Tad-O-Link that doesn't break when it's supposed to it'll be pretty risky for someone to shoot his mouth off 'cause that'll draw attention to the fact that The Industry had already radically compromised the safety of the glider with the Happy Link.

- Also... You Industry pigfuckers were able to get away with your total bullshit about having "worked out" that 130 - which was just pulled out of Quallaby's ass - was the ideal one-size-fits-all aerotow weak link through "quite literally hundreds of thousand of tows" worth of "trail and error" 'cause the internet wasn't off the ground in the early Dragonfly years. With the new Happy Link we have excellent documentation and widespread knowledge that it was just a much heavier piece of fishing line that The Industry pulled out of its ass in blindingly obvious response to the Zack Marzec fatality.

P.S. Motherfucker...

The standard aerotow weak link, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Zack Marzec... Perfect fucking storm. Everything was just so stupid, vile, outrageous. And it all came together at once and blew up in everyone's faces. And the standard aerotow weak link, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Zack Marzec are gone, toast, history. In a sick kinda way you're a huge part of the single best thing that ever happened to the sport of hang gilding. And with a bit o' luck there'll be some major spillover effect for paragliding.

Good thing you pulled through after that unhooked launch. Now do the sport, gene pool, planet a big favor and kill yourself on another one - or, preferably, another Rooney Link induced inexplicable freak accident. (Thought it would be fun having you around to keep humiliating but you finally got smart enough to crawl under your rock and keep your fuckin' mouth shut so you've ceased being of any conceivable use.)

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC

Zach was conscious immediately after the accident but died in route to the hospital.

Beyond these facts anything else would be pure speculation. I have personally had numerous weak link breaks on tow, both low and high, after hitting turbulence and have never felt in danger of a tumble. I have witnessed countless others have weak link breaks with no serious problems. We train aero tow pilots how to handle this situation and I am certain that Zach had also encountered this situation many times before and knew how to react properly. Apparently, Zach simply hit strong low level turbulence, probably a dust devil that could not be seen due to the lack of dust in Florida, the nose went too high and he tumbled at a very low altitude.

Strong dust devils in Florida definitely do exist even though they are rare. My wife had a near miss when she encountered a severe dusty a couple years ago and I almost lost a brand new $18,000 ATOS VX when it was torn from its tie down and thrown upside down.

I wish I could shed more light on this accident but I am afraid this is all we know and probably will know. Zach was a great guy with an incredible outlook and zest for life. He will be sorely missed.

Well Paul, I think you CAN shed some more light on this "accident".

Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, endorsed by Quest...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

...for his solid comments based on hundred of hours and tows of experience and backed by his keen intellect and knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding and aerotowing in particular, tells us in no uncertain terms that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC

I'm not saying that you've claimed that a stronger weaklink allows for a greater AOA... I'm telling you that it does.
You know this.
I'll spell it out anyway...
Increases in AOA increase the load factor... push it beyond what the weaklink can stand and *POP*, you're off tow.
Increase the load factor that the weaklink can withstand and you increase the achievable AOA.

This ain't truck towing. There is no pressure limiting mechanism. Push out and you load the line. Push out hard and you'll break the weaklink... that's the whole idea.

You want to break off the towline? Push out... push out hard... it will break.
As others have pointed out, they've used this fact intentionally to get off tow. It works.

You want MORE.
I want you to have less.
This is the fundamental disagreement.
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.

I'm sorry that you don't like that the tug pilot has the last word... but tough titties.
Don't like it?
Don't ask me to tow you.

Go troll somewhere else buddy.
I'm over this.

...Zack's nose wouldn't have gone too high if he'd been using a safer weak link. Sure makes sense to me. Also Bob Kuczewski who has a Bachelor of Science degree in Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineering and has worked for two years at a commercial grade wind tunnel. So how come:

- a safer weak link wasn't on your list of zero recommendations to make such an incident more survivable?

- nobody from Quest came out onto the discussions to back your beloved friend Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney up on his position and recommendation?

Still using 130? If so, what would be the point in...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32824
Weaklink testing

Mark Dowsett - 2013/07/04 21:41:52 UTC

I left Quest with some of the towmeup.com material when I was there in April and they were going to do testing as well. I'm not sure what they are now using.

...testing material from Stuart Caruk? Right now he's only selling 250 and 300. Did he have something lighter than 130 previously? A bit hard to believe 'cause with Quest constantly working to perfect aerotowing he'd have had a huge market for it.

How come...

http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Quest Air Aerotow FAQ

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.

...you're no longer telling us what you're using? We've gotta come down to Quest to find out? You're putting all this enormous effort into perfecting aerotowing but you don't want anybody who isn't flying at Quest to benefit from it?

If you're using something safer than 130 how come you're not commenting on the 200 that so many of us are now happy with?

Davis Dead-On Straub was always...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Davis Straub - 2011/07/30 19:51:54 UTC

I'm very happy with the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now.

...VERY happy with the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) was doing it then - but now...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 16:45:39 UTC

I am more than happy to have a stronger weaklink and often fly with the string used for weaklinks used at Wallaby Ranch for tandem flights (orange string - 200 lbs). We used these with Russell Brown's (tug owner and pilot) approval at Zapata after we kept breaking weaklink in light conditions in morning flights.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Davis Straub - 2014/09/01 15:22:41 UTC

I can tell you that I fly with a 200lb weaklink on one side of my 750lb pro tow bridle. I am happy with it.

This is REALLY confusing for all us muppets. Please clarify and give us something to believe in again.

Can't even get a single comment from Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney any more. Guess he finally burned out on trying to keep us all safe. Guess somebody will hafta try to hook up behind his Dragonfly with a Tad-O-Link and see what he makes him dumb down to.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/7230
Towing question

Martin Henry - 2009/06/26 06:06:59 UTC

PS... you got to be careful mentioning weak link strengths around the forum, it can spark a civil war

Keeriste! Now ya mention weak link strengths anywhere and all ya hear are chirping crickets.