landing

[Tad Eareckson]

Jump to next post:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post7354.html#p7354

Revenge for Ignacio taking his video down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFr11s0FLD0
Hang glider crash.

94 stills that should illustrate everything of importance from the posted 4:06 length.

The figure after the hyphen represents:
- minutes - first digit
- seconds - next two digits
- frame - last two digits - 24 frames per second

Imageas are 800x450. The url gets you full resolution - 1920x1080.

Stay tuned to this post. I'll edit in comments as soon as possible and put a note at the end time stamping the amendment(s).
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Opening frame. Pod open.

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Bailout at left edge of frame.

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Landing field between right wing and downtube.

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Bailout immediately over right wing (inboard).

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Landing field in lower left corner of frame, bailout inside control frame.

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Uncleating VG line - from full probably.

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VG full off.

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Mike Harper - 2015/01/27 03:49:21 UTC

He was within reach of the bailout LZ almost the whole time. At :47 he is headed right for the strip. And they have cleared out a bunch of trees to make it easier.

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Mike Harper - 2015/01/27 03:49:21 UTC

The ridge he is by at 1:09 is what I consider last chance, still 500 AGL, and have gotten up from there. If not you have enough to make the bailout.

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Landing field immediately under right wing.

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Mike Harper - 2015/01/27 03:49:21 UTC

He could have made it up until 1:30 of the flight.

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Note the steady flow of traffic on Grand Avenue - posted speed limit 40 MPH.

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Check out the slope of the terrain this side of the road. Compare/Contrast with the flatness of the lake. (The bailout's the same as the landing field - fifty foot drop over its length.)

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Base.

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Mostly on final.

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Tailwire hooked.

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Tailwire unhooked.

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Control frame corner one frame shy of ground contact.

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Going for the right downtube.

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Nose planting.

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Notes amended - 2015/01/30 07:35:00 UTC
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Photos amended - 2015/01/30 15:45:00 UTC
25004 - 25006 - 25008 - 25010 - 25011

Jump to top:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post7350.html#p7350

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32369
Cross controlling bad approach & crash on a topless.

Dave Pendzick - 2015/01/27 12:05:29 UTC

I have seen this type of attitude in the Skydiving community with people who progress to faster higher performing parachutes without the proper skill level required.

I have seen people get banned from the dropzone & ridiculed by peers & this is not effective in changing their behavior or attitude. In fact it further reinforces their bad attitude as they become defensive, which Ignacio has already done.

The best way to deal with a situation like this is to offer advise, which they wont take, stay the fuck away from them in the sky, & watch the carnage unfold. You would be amazed what a few months in a hospital bed can do to change someone's attitude.

On hook-in checks...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4247
Hook in failure in New Zealand

Jim Rooney - 2006/09/24 21:19:29 UTC

There isn't one sure-fire answer.
If there was, we'd all be doing it already. This thread I think makes this obvious... every single thing people have put forth as "the way", someone else has show how it can fail. Every single one. Argue about the details, but every single one fails.

Argue if you will about the examples (whatever), the trick of it isn't the method to me, it's how using new things doesn't work (and actually causes problems) in strange ways (like when going back to "normal" flying after getting used to the new method/device).

Enough about what doesn't work though... what does?
Since we don't have a plug that only fits one way, we fall on lesser methods, but some are better than others...

In particular... Third Party Verification.
You won't save you, but your friends might.
Not always, but they're more reliable than you.

...for example. Or...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Oh how many times I have to hear this stuff.
I've had these exact same arguments for years and years and years.
Nothing about them changes except the new faces spouting them.

It's the same as arguing with the rookie suffering from intermediate syndrome.
They've already made up their mind and only hear that which supports their opinion.

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.

...Tad-O-Links.

Hopefully he doesn't die or get a site closed in the process.

Don't hold your breath waiting for either.

Jason Boehm - 2015/01/27 14:56:27 UTC

I looked at the video a couple times while it was up
I fly the same glider
I have flown Elisore A couple times

That glider can be landed in that field safely (and gently), but he was going the wrong way.....choosing to land downhill.....was not the proper choice

Duh.....

He was in range of the beach.

I foresee a serious injury for him unfortunatly

What's your record like on predicting serious injuries for individuals?

Brad Barkley - 2015/01/27 15:08:24 UTC

The scariest part of this is that he seems to think this "situation" just somehow happened to him, outside of any control or influence he might have had.

Like...

Jim Rooney - 2006/09/25 11:37:18 UTC

i've been preaching this stuff for a long time... that's the irony... i was one of those 'hang checks will save you' guys.
christ... my email was jim @hangcheck.com!
i was the religious finatic about checking.
i did do hookin checks (after hang checks)
i did all the stuff you guys are saying will save you

guess what?

all that stuff is good stuff to do... it helps with other problems. but it helps with other problems.

if you think that you're immune to omissions because you this, or you do that, then god help you.

His quote serves as a case study in the condition known as "Intermediate Syndrome."

Three Hundred Hour Intermediate Syndrome.

Erik Boehm - 2015/01/27 15:10:02 UTC

Not just downhill... but according to him, downhill and downwind.

According to the video negligible or no wind.

That makes it *really* stupid

I think it's *really* fucking stupid portraying him as...

I though I had a head wind to do the regular landing aproach but it was until my dive turn that i found out I was in a down wind situation

...having DELIBERATELY landing downhill and downwind.

So his other option was uphill and into the wind, which is pretty much the most favorable combination you can imagine (all else being equal)

No shit.

Jason Boehm - 2015/01/27 15:30:26 UTC

Dan Lukaszewicz - 2015/01/27 02:56:21 UTC

I was 10 seconds into the video and didn't think he would be walking away from the flight. I'm glad it worked out ok in the end. Let's hope his buddies see this video and stage an intervention before this guy gets hurt.

Yes- first few seconds there were several pitch oscillations in one 360, with the VG on too tight.......not a reassuring way to start the video

How 'bout the start of THIS:

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video?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32369
Cross controlling bad approach & crash on a topless.

Anthony Tagliaferro - 2015/01/27 16:18:26 UTC
Oakland

Found a video of him launching his glider-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfcqT7WgfZs


His skills are definitely lacking (started launch on flat part of hill...

So?

...-> transitioned hands while still running -> AOA too high -> fell into the glider). That glider is probably more than he can handle.

1. Obviously. No fuckin' way could/would he have done any of that on a Falcon.

2. Any comment on the fact that he didn't do a hook-in check until about four steps into his launch run?

Anthony Tagliaferro - 87955 - H3 - 2010/06/11 - Scott Seebass - FL FSL - OBS

Just kidding.

3. And it's perfectly OK that there's no wheels on the glider. If he gets quaded from a blown launch or landing it'll be entirely 'cause he was a crappy accident-waiting-to-happen pilot.

I think the thing that bothers me most about this whole Elsinore incident is that he didn't consult the locals before flying a sensitive site. A good site intro (if he was willing to listen!!) would have helped him out a lot in this case!

And if it HAD been the bailout he wouldn't have crash-landed a wingspan shy of the highway?

I had a lot of fun on my flight when I flew Elsinore- in large part because I knew what to look out for and where the bailouts were, thanks to a good site intro by a local.

I've got a bit of a problem talking about that launch as an issue regarding SKILLS. I've had Day One, Flight One students launch just as well as I or anyone else could. There's not that much to foot launching. Pointy end into the wind, wings level, nose down a bit, run until you can't anymore. That wasn't a crappy launch because of what he couldn't or lacked the skills to do. That was a crappy launch because of what he did and didn't do.

He's undoubtedly done perfect launches - 'cept, of course, for the hook-in check which his asshole instructor elects not to teach and require - many times before. Sinking a foul shot is a skill. If one's life depended on it there wouldn't be an NBA player anywhere who'd survive more than a couple weeks into a season. A foot launch is virtually all judgment, keeping one's brain engaged. And virtually anyone is capable of making perfect/excellent launches for every flight of a career - 'specially the ones in which his life IS dependent upon one.

Brad Barkley - 2015/01/27 16:43:16 UTC

That's just poor technique, no matter what glider he's flying.

Pretty much on the same page on this one - for something new and different.

Mike Bomstad - 2015/01/27 17:29:34 UTC

Re: Scary pilot

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/01/27 05:11:52 UTC

He's a H2, just over two years since he started flying. I've had a short email discussion with his instructor, and I called him on the phone this evening to tell him bluntly that if he keeps this up, he's going to die. We don't want that to happen. I hope he takes that advice to heart, gets back on a wing more suited to his current skill level, and goes back for some additional training. He has moved rapidly from a Falcon up to a topless, and he hasn't developed the skills to handle it safely.

We've already lost two pilots this year, and we're not even through January. Let's not lose any more. There's plenty of fun to be had on easy-to-fly wings while you build up your skills, and it's a lot more relaxing to fly when you know you can put it exactly where you want it every time.

Thanks Mark

Fuck that, Mark. Anybody who thinks he can or tries to put it exactly where he wants every time is an arrogant and clueless asshole. You put the goddam glider into a safe area and let IT decide exactly where it wants to land every time.

Doug Doerfler - 2015/01/27 20:07:12 UTC

Hey Mark, any discussions with the guy that sold him this glider?

To me the guy that sells a topless to an inexperienced...

...three hundred hour...

...pilot should take alot of the responsibility

So it would've been OK if someone had sold him a Falcon. Skipping hook-in checks, jumping into launches, flying wheel-less, landing in the wrong fields, coming in downwind... Not problems on Falcon.

Here's Allen landing his Falcon into the wind right on the numbers on the nice flat designated primary putting green:

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and DEMOLISHING his shoulder - simply because there's no landing gear on his aircraft. Are we going after whatever asshole dealer it was who sold him the Falcon or Wills Wing for marketing WHAT THEY KNOW...

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

is a dangerous defective product?

Allen, who'd launched unhooked twice and damn near killed himself once right at the beginning of his flying career, sold a previous Falcon to his longtime buddy Bille Floyd knowing goddam well that he never does hook-in checks. THIS:

http://ozreport.com/forum/files/copy_2_of_imgp1239_197.jpg
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http://www.thekiteboarder.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/opener-532x800.jpg

was the result of what was probably his second ever flight on the thing. Wanna argue that he had the training, experience, skills, judgment, maturity to be flying that glider? Wanna hold Allen accountable for selling it to him?

This "too much glider" thing is a load o' total crap. The Industry - USHGA, the manufacturers, schools, dealers, instructors - wants you to buy a Falcon, Sport 2, U2, and T2 and break as many downtubes as possible through the cycle. Mention of WHEELS...

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...is all but entirely absent from this discussion. Don't wanna go there fer sure. 'Cause all the cool guys have perfected their flare timing and don't use or need them. So we sure can't paint this guy as an irresponsible asshole using that particular brush. Good thing the tapes weren't started five minutes before launch. We could've torn him a new asshole for not having done a hang check and/or walking around in his harness.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32369
Cross controlling bad approach & crash on a topless.

AIRHEADSHORTCUT - 2015/01/27 21:41:09 UTC
Lake Elsinore

I'm not so sure about that. Certainly it is an ethical concern.

I think that he pilot is 100% responsible for his own safety, and for a favorable outcome of each flight as to not result in injury to himself, others (including spectators and other pilots). or harmful to the flying site.

So then why do we have certified instructors and a rating system?

Maybe not a favorable outcome. and incredibly lucky no one got hurt.

Right. Entirely luck. The glider would've probably been better off without him.

...but it seems the mistakes were made before he left his driveway:

Flying a new site, new LZ..maybe take the easy wing.

and more mistakes before he set up. Walk that new/unfamiliar LZ.

1. That wasn't the LZ.
2. What would he have learned from walking that field that wasn't fucking obvious well in advance from the air?

or before launching:..where's the Baiilout(s)?....how should I approach those?

Same way you do to writing, spelling, capitalization, punctuation, grammar, sentence structure. Hard to go wrong.

and then while flying...maintain safe gliding distance to LZs.

Double jeopardy. He thought that WAS the bailout and he DID maintain plenty safe gliding distance to it. You're piling on.

These are H2 Level, fundamental, concerns. And the pilot ratings should reflect the maturity and judgment that go along with the skills and experience.

So who signed his Two? If he wasn't up to snuff on Hang Two fundamentals how come Rob's getting a free pass on this?

Any yahoo...can clip into anything.. and run off a mountain.

Or...

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7570/15661252749_7fcfe6445a_o.jpg

Some have trouble doing it responsibly. It's not the wings fault..its not SmokinJoes fault ...its's not NME's fault for his videos.

The guy needs help to get his head out of his ass.

Compared to Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney how much?

The E-teamers are usually pretty good about helping with that.....maybe not in the best ways. Maybe (and its too bad this kid didn't destroy that glider) this will be a wake-up call.

Yeah, let's destroy a beautiful glider and throw thousands of dollars of materials, labor, craftsmanship, resources down the toilet to get a message - that he undoubtedly scored during the last hundred yards of that approach - across.

If not...we should help him with that.

Why? I thought that he pilot is 100% responsible for his own safety.

Doug Doerfler - 2015/01/27 22:29:56 UTC

I sold a T2 a couple years ago

There were at least three pilots that contacted me, that when I found out more about them I told them very clearly that I would not sell my glider to them

Nic Welbourn - 2015/01/27 23:00:14 UTC

This is something I might do, but where do you draw the line?
"Can you really handle this fast motorbike? Should I really sell this fast car to you? Have you driven a wingsuit before?" - the seller is not responsible.

This has nothing to do with the seller and everything to do with the pilot's attitude.

So is it OK to sell a glider at a garage sale to someone who's obviously planning to get it up by tying a rope to his trailer hitch and wrapping the other end around the basetube a couple times?

In any case, the pilot is clearly ACP material, which means he can fly anything on any day AND fingerbang at the same time.

Jack Barth - 2015/01/27 23:29:56 UTC

Had a fellow pilot sell a Supersport to someone that hadn't taken lessons and was told by this guy that he could do anything. He proceeded to show up at the E un announced for his first high altitude flight. He took off and immediately lost control of the wing eventually crashing into the side of the E. Absolutely scariest flight I've ever witnessed. He was not hurt, and he never showed up again. In this case the person selling the wing definitely bore some responsibility.

Goddam right.

It was clear that the seller was trying to recover his investment Asap. I previously owned the Supersport and it was not a docile airship.

It wasn't any kind of airship.

Dave Pendzick - 2015/01/28 00:10:53 UTC

Im sorry, but anyone stupid enough to hurl themselves off of a mountain with little to no instruction bears ALL responsibility & deserves everything coming to them. You seriously believe the shit coming out of your mouth!?!?! This is the fundamental reason our country is totally fucked. Frivolous law suits for fuck tards not willing to take responsibility for their own actions.

YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN SELF.

Get fucked, Dave.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9tALj1io0U


Who's fault is this????

Lotsa people's. What if he'd come down somewhere and done a Vic Morrow on some people of varying ages? How would the people there who could've physically prevented that guy from getting airborne have felt about themselves?

Whose fault was THIS?:

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http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

Name some people in this terminally fucked up sport who DON'T bear some responsibility for that dumb kid getting needlessly snuffed because he was flying with the crappiest equipment ever used in the post Wright Brothers history of aviation to get anything airborne.

fucking idiot....

Yeah. And what percentage of that fucking idiocy of that guy is Ignacio? I'd go for something in the one ballpark.

Mel Torres - 2015/01/28 00:37:55 UTC
Irvine

Just so you guys and gals know, He is only a hang 2...!

1. Those guys and gals couldn't be bothered to look up his rating the instant his first name became available less than a half hour after the first post in this thread?

2. Why the hell is somebody with three hundred hours still a goddam Two?

JJ Coté - 2015/01/28 01:24:22 UTC

The pilot may always bear the full responsibility, but it's still irresponsible to provide somebody with the means to hurt himself if you know that he's so inclined, either through intent or incompetence. If somebody shoots himself, it's his own fault, but if you know he's suicidal it's still irresponsible to hand him a loaded gun. Hang glider pilots in particular put a lot of stock in the notion that we watch out for each other.

Right. It's a NOTION. I remember a time when actual efforts were made - when Doug Hildreth was doing his job pretty damn well and before incident reporting and analysis devolved into the total crap we have today.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32369
Cross controlling bad approach & crash on a topless.

Mr Pou - 2015/01/28 01:45:08 UTC
SE Tennessee

Video removed by user.

Go to the top of this page.

smokenjoe50 - 2015/01/28 03:41:23 UTC

I'm sure there will be plenty of entertainment at demo days. AJX is a breading ground for fucktard pilots flying wings way above their skil level. The site is built for retards. Large grass LZ inclined just enough for auto landings. Steep launches for nose poping fun. Top all that off with a constant wind on launch and landing. Oh and dont forget the VASI on downwind for the pilot who can't figure out his approach. These pilots don't have a clue. Don't get me wrong there's about 2 dozen realy good pilots. As for the rest of them that's the only site they've ever flown and have no buisness flying anywhere else.

Fine. Then they really don't have any need for practicing for landings in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place, do they? This roughly describes an overwhelming percentage of hang glider flying and damn near all conventional aviation flying.

Matt Christensen - 2015/01/28 12:29:02 UTC

Those that don't believe the seller of a high performance glider has any responsibility to confirm the pilot is reasonably qualified, should remember that we are self regulated. If we want to remain as such, we had all better have an interest in the safety of our fellow pilots and the security of our sites.

Good freakin' luck...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27736
Increase in our USHpA dues

Mark G. Forbes - 2012/12/20 06:21:33 UTC

We're re-working the accident reporting system, but again it's a matter of getting the reports submitted and having a volunteer willing to do the detail work necessary to get them posted. There are also numerous legal issues associated with accident reports, which we're still wrestling with. It's a trade-off between informing our members so they can avoid those kinds of accidents in the future, and exposing ourselves to even more lawsuits by giving plaintiff's attorneys more ammunition to shoot at us.

Imagine a report that concludes, "If we'd had a procedure "x" in place, then it would have probably prevented this accident. And we're going to put that procedure in place at the next BOD meeting." Good info, and what we want to be able to convey. But what comes out at trial is, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client suffered injury because USHPA knew or should have known that a safety procedure was not in place, and was therefore negligent and at fault." We're constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention.

I one hundred percent guarantee you you'll be working in a direction 180 degrees from what the controlling interests of the sport are doing.

michael170 - 2015/01/29 10:10:04 UTC

Indeed!

Dave Pendzick - 2015/01/29 12:41:00 UTC

GET OUTA HERE.... He crashed using your recommended wheel landing technique!

1. Yeah, kinda like Bill Priday crashed using Steve Wendt's launching technique. A wheel landing technique presumes one is landing with wheels, a launching technique presumes one has a glider.

2. Using michael's recommended wheel landing technique even without wheels Ignacio and his glider came out smelling like roses. Using Joe Greblo's narrow-dry-riverbed-with-large-rocks-strewn-all-over-the-place at the Whitewater Happy Acres putting green Joe Julik died on impact. Motherfucker.

2015/01/29 16:29:34 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jack Barth

Brian Scharp - 2015/01/29 15:56:44 UTC

Is there a recommended wheel landing technique that doesn't include wheels?

It's The Jack Show. There's a recommended writing technique that doesn't include an engaged brain.

Eric Beckman - 2015/01/29 18:17:37 UTC

AndRand - 2015/01/29 19:25:33 UTC

You can also recommend proper style of doing loop which will not work 50' above ground.

Eric Mies'. And we all know how that one worked out.

Scot Huber - 2015/01/29 20:44:53 UTC
Santa Rosa

Although this landing approach was a bit scary, the pilot stayed with it and got it on the ground with no damage.

Holy shit. Somebody noticed.

If people weren't so critical and displayed a bit more comraderie maybe he would have been told at launch which field was the proper LZ.

Then he could've crash-landed downhill a wingspan shy of the highway in that one and not had all those bushes and rocks to dodge.

Although this is a public internet forum we should all try to bring some good will and brotherhood to it and to our sport and give our sky brothers and sisters the benefit of our hard earned wisdom without the negative BS.

I'll settle for accuracy, fairness, logic.

Ignacio, I moved up very quickly in the performance ladder also but found the LaMouette Topless I bought to handle way better then the Attack Duck sold to me by my instructors.

The one thing about a performance wing though is that it needs a larger area to land it.

Right. That's about it. It eats up a good bit more runway. Launching, handling... irrelevant.

My suggestion is that you get a drogue chute and practice with it to learn how much it will degrade your ground skim.

My suggestion is that you don't. And don't land in stupid places in which having a drag chute would be advantageous.

Deploying one in this LZ...

That wasn't an LZ.

...would have made your landing a lot less scary...

So would have...

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...finaling uphill.

...and you would have had enough area to perform a controlled flare...

There's no such thing as a controlled flare. You're whipstalling the fucking glider. You want control?

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Fly the fuckin' glider until it stops flying.

...even downhill and in a lite downwind.

Fuck downhill and don't worry too much about a light to moderate tailwind.

Don't take the negative comments too seriously most pilots are just suffering from no airtime.

They're not suffering from it anywhere near as much as I am - and I'm more on his side than just about anyone else.

Hope to get to fly with you sometime soon.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32369
Cross controlling bad approach & crash on a topless.

Tom Lyon - 2015/01/29 21:02:04 UTC

Matt Christensen - 2015/01/28 12:29:02 UTC

Those that don't believe the seller of a high performance glider has any responsibility to confirm the pilot is reasonably qualified, should remember that we are self regulated. If we want to remain as such, we had all better have an interest in the safety of our fellow pilots and the security of our sites.

I'm so glad you reminded us of this point. Not one of us has a legal "right" to fly. It's all by generous permission of the FAA and Part 103.

Not to mention of Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, the Torrey concessionaire, that ilk.

That thought may leave a bitter taste in the mouth of some...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

Ok, keyboard in hand.
I've got a bit of time, but I'm not going to write a dissertation... so either choose to try to understand what I'm saying, or (as is most often the case) don't.
I don't care.

Here's a little bit of bitter reality that ya'll get to understand straight off. I won't be sugar coating it, sorry.
You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.
I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.
And yes. It is my call. PERIOD.
On tow, I am the PIC.

Now, that cuts hard against every fiber of every HG pilot on the planet and I get that.
Absolutely no HG pilot likes hearing it. Not me, not no one. BUT... sorry, that's the way it is.
Accept it and move on.
Not only can you not change it, it's the law... in the very literal sense.

...but it's imperative that we all work together.

It's actually imperative that some of us work in violent opposition to most others of us.

I was so glad that this pilot was not injured, but it was pretty scary thinking of the other implications as well. When I fly, I am always conscious of how I am representing our sport and other pilots.

How very odd. When I fly I'm always conscious of how I'm representing myself and contrasting with this sport and the assholes infesting it.

Hey Tom...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30722
What happened to JD?

Tom Lyon - 2014/02/04 07:55:19 UTC

That's what I was referring to when I commented on turns near the ground elsewhere. I see so many landings where a low turn from base to final is just standard. And almost all of us have either seen, or know of someone who caught a wingtip or otherwise landed while in a turn. It's so dangerous.

In learning to fly the sailplanes, I had it drilled into me that below 200 feet, my options did not include anything more than maybe a very slight turn to avoid hitting an obstacle. Like 30 degrees from my heading may. A slight bank.

I see hang gliders make 90 degree turns from base to final at maybe 50' - 75' AGL fairly often. And I always cringe. Turns down low definitely appear to be something (from my very limited experience) that our sport needs to take more seriously in terms of avoidance.

42-23616
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You're not gonna say anything?

Accidents can happen to anyone.

ACCIDENTS can happen to NO ONE.

But I would never consider flying at a new site, that is someone else's home flying site (even if it's on public land), without a thorough briefing...

Sounds oxymoronic.

...by experienced locals, and their opinion that I can handle the challenges of their site based on my level of experience and the conditions. That's so fundamental and important.

Fine. I wanna know where the primary is and I don't need any more briefing from a bunch of hook-in check skipping flare timing perfectionists.

2015/01/29 21:33:01 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Paul Hurless

'Specially ones like that asshole.

Doug Doerfler - 2015/01/29 21:05:28 UTC

Come on Scott

did you notice him hit the ground with the corner of the control bar 100 feet before the final crash, its amazing it didn't all end right there

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But let's studiously and conspicuously ignore the fact that there was no wheel on the corner and he could've totally snapped his neck instead of harmlessly bouncing back into the air.

But as mentioned I am way more critical of the jerk that sold a topless to an H2...

...with four times the airtime needed for a Four...

...than I am of an H2 thinking he could fly it...especially given the sensitivity of the sites in California

He CAN fly it. His judgment sucks a bit but he most assuredly CAN fly it.

As a community we just can't be doing shit like that.

There's all kinds of shit your asshole "community" can't be doing but does anyway decade after decade with no glimmer of hope in sight.

Paul Hurless - 2015/01/29 21:19:16 UTC

Scot Huber - 2015/01/29 20:44:53 UTC

Although this landing approach was a bit scary, the pilot stayed with it and got it on the ground with no damage.
If people weren't so critical and displayed a bit more comraderie maybe he would have been told at launch which field was the proper LZ.

You must have missed this post by one of the local pilots. The incident pilot...

His name's Ignacio.

...has no one to blame but himself for his lack of site knowledge.

He has really excellent site knowledge now.

gluesniffer - 2015/01/29 21:20:56 UTC

So this pilot was getting attitude from the locals before his flight...

Where does it say that?

...and that is why he landed where and how he did?
The pilot obviously used skills to stay alive, but it was his poor judgment that got him into the predicament in the first place.

Paul Hurless - 2015/01/29 21:22:25 UTC

The pilot obviously used NO skills...

Bullshit.

...he was just a passenger along for the ride.

Like ALL aerotowers on Industry Standard equipment, 'specially the ones behind Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney?

He survived by pure luck.

Fuck you Paul.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32369
Cross controlling bad approach & crash on a topless.

NMERider - 2015/01/29 21:25:27 UTC

Scot,

The conversation started on Facebook and everyone was initially civil toward Ignacio AKA: Zopilote. Ignacio responded by taking everything personally as if we were attacking his manhood even though this was not the case. It was pretty obvious that he was soliciting praise for his perceived heroics and was not expecting such a backlash. He then went on the offensive and started making personal attacks against me specifically and the community in general.

He openly admitted that he was flying with a drag chute and made a conscious decision not to use it. He openly admitted that he was sick with the flu and that he knew better than to fly his T2C 144 while in his sickened condition. He did not admit that he still owns a terrific Falcon 3 195 that he could have easily and wisely substituted in place of the less forgiving T2C 144.

I have flown with Ignacio many times and he typically climbs to the top of the stack. His normal landing technique is often excellent. Nobody was questioning his skills (when not sick with flu). What we were questioning was his judgement. What we took offense to was his attitude. He has exhibited poor judgement and a very hazardous attitude. He has a chip on his shoulder and has something to prove. It is the man's attitude and judgement that are on trial here and not his manhood or his flying talent.

Any pilot regardless of who they may be needs to listen closely and not take personally, valid criticism from more experienced pilots against poor judgement and hazardous attitudes. That is what this is about. Unless there is a real change of judgement and attitude he will find himself with a rating reduction, injury or both.

The last time a certain friend of mine piled in to the side of a certain launch about 20' below a group of pilots and family, I personally reached out to our local RD and got his rating pulled down to H1. He was suspended from flying that site for a year pending self-improvement. I called him in his hospital room and told him that as his friend I was the one who busted him. I also told him that he was free to fly out in the desert sites all he wanted and I'd be happy to try and help him improve. He has improved a great deal and is working his way back up in hang ratings too.

In that case it was a combination of both poor skills and poor judgement. His attitude was positive. He was hooked on flying and overly enthusiastic. That's a different situation. He had nothing to prove. He just wanted to fly.

And yet a lot of what we've heard in the previous 83 posts here is that he's a totally clueless asshole inherently incapable of simultaneously walking and chewing gum on way too much glider.

smokenjoe50 - 2015/01/29 21:57:52 UTC

This was the pilots 3rd flight from Elsinore. He launched edwards twice and this was his first flight from the E. For those that don't know the 2 launches are a mile apart. They both use the same LZ.

Tom Lyon - 2015/01/30 04:30:31 UTC

My mistake on that. I was under the impression that he flew a new site without talking to the locals and that this contributed to not making the LZ.

I will say that I don't believe one should ever land out at someone else's site (if at all possible) unless you talk to them about it first. Fly straight to the LZ after launch and glide around above it if there is any doubt.

And then land on your feet 'cause it's OK to break an arm or neck for want of wheels no matter where you come down.

Flying sites are so sensitive. I'd hate to land on someone's property, even perfectly safely, and then have that landowner complain at the next city council meeting while I'm back home 100 miles away with the local pilots trying to iron that out and preserve their site.

[Tad Eareckson]

Nice landing, doofus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2CocdxEXCw
Thomas Shaffer - 2015/02/08
dead

Vicarious Icarus - 2015/02/08

Please post this on the SHGA forum under Safety and Incidents:
http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=3
When I watched it frame by frame I noticed that you were very close to incurring a spiral fracture.

Even with those nice eight inch pneumatic wheels on the basetube? Well, I guess if you don't LET them do their job they WON'T.

I hope nothing was bruised any worse than your pride.

Thomas S - 2015/02/09

Thank you, Jonathan. I managed to let go of the downtime just in time. Ended up with some grass stains on my knees and egg on my face.

Keep perfecting that flare timing. Hopefully when your time comes to land in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place you'll be in one of your perfect cycles.

I don't know whether I should be really depressed knowing that common sense has pretty much zero chance of ever kicking in or elated knowing that this will be an eternal source of entertainment. But right now I'm leaning heavily towards the former.

[Tad Eareckson]

Doug Hildreth - 1987/03

1986/09/05 - Stu Smith - 40 - Advanced - Grandfather Mountain - Seedwings Sensor - Head

Experienced competition pilot flying the Masters. Pilot modified glider (hang point higher on king post, pitch device added, sail fin removed). On final approach, a little high, pilot performed slipping turn; glider did not recover and continued into the ground.

Dennis Pagen - 1986/11

Massive brain damage indicated that Stewart's head received a major blow...

Ya think, Sherlock? Have you ruled out the possibility that the massive brain damage indicated that Stewart's right elbow had received a major blow?

So why do you think his helmet didn't seem to help much? Forgot to make sure it was buckled while he was doing his hang check? One of those salad bowl with a string jobs?

...which leads us...

Who's "us"? I'm not seeing any other names attached to that assessment.

...to believe that he was still prone when the impact occurred.

Oh. So he'd have probably been a lot better off coming into the tight field on a modified, reduced stability comp wing if he'd gone upright early and gotten his landing gear down properly.

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OK. We'll make a point of doing that as much as possible in the future.

Was there a pair of substantial wheels on the glider? Just kidding.

(Pretty sure I met Stu 1982/06/18 up on the top of Potato Hill the morning after my first mountain flight...

http://www.kitestrings.org/post7342.html#p7342

...as one of a few guys who came up to check out the undoable wind direction. A little over four years left to live.)

[miguel]

A Triptych Trio Trip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiMRkaX8s9g
Vicarious Icarus - 2015/02/19
dead

Nice wheel landings!