instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.
Which, as we all know, it does by breaking before you can get into too much trouble if you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon).

And, of course...
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
Stalls due to abrupt loss of tow tension ceased being problems ever since 1981 when Donnell Hewett pronounced the lockout to be the only danger to towed hang gliders and the one or under G weak link to be the antidote.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

Is a weaklink going to save your ass? Who knows? But it's nice to stack the deck in your favour.
Well, we're not ENTIRELY sure it will save your ass. But what have you got to lose by using 130 pound Greenspot to stack the deck in your favor? (Especially when you use the English spelling of favor - it just sounds so much more professional and refined.)

OK, we've now established that:
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

You're 100% onto it... relying on the skill of the pilot is a numbers game that you'll lose at some point.
- If you fly long enough with anything heavier than 130 pound Greenspot, death by lockout is inevitable.

...and...
Marc Fink - 2011/08/28 21:11:09 UTC

I once locked out on an early laminarST aerotowing. went past vertical and past 45 degrees to the line of pull-- and the load forces were increasing dramatically. The weaklink blew and the glider stalled--needed every bit of the 250 ft agl to speed up and pull out. I'm alive because I didn't use a stronger one.
- Even if you fly 130 pound Greenspot the minimum altitude at which you can survive a lockout - when used in conjunction with other Flight Park Mafia standard equipment - is 250 feet.

So shouldn't we be seeing a HUGE number of lockout fatalities from below 250 feet when pilots are flying competently? Especially the lighter ones who NEVER blow the Greenspot? Can somebody give me a SINGLE example from anywhere in the history of hang glider aerotowing? How 'bout just a hard crash?
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

The forces of an aerotow can get high enough to tear the wings off the glider.
This is no exaggeration... it can be done.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10

So, in a lock out, the forces can very rapidly get so high as to destroy the glider...
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 07:22:00 UTC

Mind you, I say you're right... it prevented you from tearing the wings off your glider... this made you safer... mission accomplished. You hitting the release would also serve this purpose... but that doesn't matter. All that matters is that you did not break your glider and you did not break yourself or the tug or tug pilot... mission accomplished.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

Well, it won't take long with that system before we've got a lot more dead pilots out there.
So they can stuff their philosophical purity bs... cuz I have no desire to tow someone to their death, no matter how willing they may be.

I'm not playing with this stuff in my head and just dismissing it. There's been a lot that's gone into this system.

I've seen too many people walk the "strong link" road only to find out the reality of things.
Fortunately, they've been unscathed, but there have been a lot of soiled underpants in the process.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.
131 posts, two dozen participants, well over sixty-two hundred hits by the time Davis rescues Rooney from his brainless mouth with the lock button - simultaneously dampening his own exposure from his own old idiot writings.

So we all need to use 130 pound Greenspot - and ONLY 130 pound Greenspot - to protect us from the - known to date - ravages of the dreaded stronglink including, but probably not limited to:

- a lot of soiled underpants;

- breaking yourself or the tug or tug pilot;

- tiresome hospital visits;

- tearing the wings off the glider (no exaggeration... it can be done);

- causing conscientious tug drivers like God's Special Little Messenger to tow willing pilots to their deaths;

- adding to the pile of dead pilots we already have as consequences of standard gear like Wallaby, Lookout, and Bailey releases, understrength weak links, and idiot and helpful tug drivers;

And yet, conspicuous by their absences, are *ANY* ACTUAL CITATIONS of *ANY* ACTUAL INCIDENTS in which a stronglink has contributed to the soiling of underpants, broken pilots or tugs, wings torn off gliders, willing pilots towed to their deaths, or increases in the body counts.

- We have a statement from Bill Cummings about what a great backup release a light weak link makes in glassy smooth air when you drag your primary through the slush and freeze it at an altitude at which you can afford to do most any stupid thing you feel like.

- Marc, who, like Cragin, realizes that this:
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
is just a pile of obsolete bullshit left over from the darkest days of hang gliding, documents how 130 pound Greenspot makes a super emergency release for anyone not concerned about dying from a lockout BELOW 250 feet.

- One Davis Show shithead tells us:
Tormod Helgesen - 2011/08/28 15:04:22 UTC

Weaklinks have saved my ass to...
...but gives us ZERO information - like what shitrigged piece of junk he was "thinking" he could use as a release when he really needed to, what idiot things he did to put himself in position in which his life was dependent upon a weak link failing at the precise instant he needed it to, or even the slightest hint about G rating - beyond that useless statement.

- And another Davis Show shithead tells us...
Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/28 21:38:10 UTC

...got a bit sideways in a tow, quickly headed towards a dramatic lockout, went to release and at the same moment the weaklink broke. Closest I came to a loop.
...how he'd have been smeared all over the runway using his shitrigged release - "designed" on the assumption that you're NEVER gonna need to release NOW and ALWAYS gonna able fly the glider with one hand OK while you're progressing into a lockout - if he had been under several hundred feet relying on his 130 pound Greenspot to save his ass.
Zack C - 2011/08/31 02:45:17 UTC

In fact, I have yet to see a single account of an incident attributable to too strong a weak link...
And you still haven't. Just a bunch of bullshit, distortions, and outright lies to feed the phobia and keep towing about thirty times more dangerous than it needs to be.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins...
John Fritsche - 2011/08/26 06:07:24 UTC

As I was locking out, I was forcing the tail of the tug up and sideways in a big way...
Bart Weghorst - 2011/08/28 20:29:27 UTC

I have had a 582 Dragonfly with a 200 pound pilot in it pretty much suspended vertically from my North Wing T2. Tiki was my passenger. This situation lasted so long that the tug pilot (Neil Harris) had enough time to idle all the way back while looking straight at the ground.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)
Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC

Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

Argue all you like about the "true" purpose of a weaklink... but it's only you that's arguing.
I find no disagreement in the professional community as to such.
http://www.dynamicflight.com.au/WeakLinks.html
Dynamic Flight - 2005

The purpose of a weak link is solely to prevent the tow force from increasing to a point that the glider can be stressed close to or beyond its structural limits. Lockouts can and do occur without increasing tow tension up until the point where the glider is radically diverging from the direction of tow. At this point tension rises dramatically and something will give - preferably the weak link. Given that a certified glider will take 6-10G positive a 1.5 G weak link as opposed to a standard 1 G weak link should not significantly increase the risk of structural failure. It will however significantly decrease the probability of an unwanted weak link break.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 08:34:12 UTC

Yeah, I've read that drivel before.
It's a load of shit.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)
Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC

Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink.
http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28641
Weak links in towing paragliders with pay out winch
Stuart Caruk - 2009/12/04 20:57:53 UTC

Just because people have been doing something for years doesn't mean it's right. Heck look at all the hang glider guys who having been tying loops of 130 pound line for years, and assuming it would break at 260 pounds. Then they wonder why the links seem to break prematurely...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

Unfortunately, he's stumbled onto some of Tad's old rantings and got suckered in. So most of this was just the same old story of debunking Tad's lunacy... again .
http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28697
Weak links why do we use them. in paragliding.
Stuart Caruk - 2010/02/11 20:26:44 UTC

Sometimes Tad goes too far, but many of his observations are spot on.
http://ozreport.com/9.037
Recommendations based on Robin's accident
Rohan Holtkamp - 2005/02/14

Our hang gliding community, like other facets of aviation (and life) must learn and adapt if deaths are to be avoided in the future. I feel saddened and frustrated when facts and physics prove change is needed, then the solutions that are offered are rejected.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6671
Weaklinks
Gregg Ludwig - 2008/10/07 22:08:56 UTC

I find your latest post quite interesting. I must say it has taken me sometime to get used to or accept your writing style but you make some valid points. When you refer to "USHPA" you are actually referring to me, Chair of the USHPA Tow Committee. Our next Tow Committee meeting will be at Chattanooga, TN 23-25 October. Can you attend?
Gregg Ludwig - 2009/02/12 00:05:51 UTC

Would you be interested in a position on the USHPA Tow Committee? You can participate via e-mail if you can't make it to a BOD meeting. ..or just help me with a single project...

I need to rewrite the aerotow SOP...to include ATP and Sport pilot stuff....weaklinks...or just send me a proposal on weaklink sop ideas...
And by the way - you miserable little shit - I was a goddam professional pilot before you and a lot of your douchebag friends began potty training. And a pretty damn good one at that.
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Steve Davy »

Not sure why you guys aren't getting Jim's point.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

I'm sure I will just as soon as my lunacy is debunked a little more thoroughly. Be patient, give me some time.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4049
Towing errata
Bill Bryden - 2004/04/01 16:20:18 UTC

Some aerotow releases, including a few models from prominent schools, have had problems releasing under high tensions. You must VERIFY through tests that a release will work for the tensions that could possibly be encountered. You better figure at least three hundred pounds to be modestly confident.

Maybe eight to ten years ago I got several comments from people saying a popular aerotow release (with a bicycle type brake lever) would fail to release at higher tensions. I called and talked to the producer sharing the people's experiences and concerns. I inquired to what tension their releases were tested but he refused to say, just aggressively stated they never had any problems with their releases, they were fine, goodbye, click. Another person tested one and found it started getting really hard to actuate in the range of only eighty to a hundred pounds as I vaguely recall. I noticed they did modify their design but I don't know if they ever really did any engineering tests on it. You should test the release yourself or have someone you trust do it. There is only one aerotow release manufacturer whose product I'd have reasonable confidence in without verifying it myself, the Wallaby release is not it.
Besides the spinnaker shackle, with what other two point primary release core mechanisms did you experiment?
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2008/03
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Pilot Proficiency System
02. Rating Requirements
10. Hang Gliding Aerotow Ratings
-B. Aero Vehicle Requirements

04. A pilot operational release must connect the tow line to the towing vehicle. This release must be operational with zero tow line force up to twice the rated breaking strength of the weak link.
How did the release perform when you tested it under twice what you're using for a tandem weak link?
How did the modification Bill mentioned affect the performance?

http://ozreport.com/9.009
2005 Worlds
Davis Straub - 2005/01/11

Rohan Holtkamp did an analysis of the fatal accident, in particular the bridle and weaklink, which never broke. The weaklink was caught on the release mechanism, a standard spinnaker release found on bridle systems used at Lookout Mountain, Moyes, Wallaby Ranch, and Quest Air. The release clamp has an arm that is thicker at the release point and this held onto the weaklink which consisted of multiple loops of thick line.
What refinements in equipment and/or procedures did you make to prevent a repetition of the Robin Strid fatality?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less)...
Joe Gregor - 2004/09

There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.
Why was the downtube determined to be a location superior to the basetube for mounting of the actuator?
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

...but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3347
Tad's barrel release tested
Janni Papakrivos - 2008/06/30 15:35:44 UTC

With a bunch of tows to boot I can say that it happened once that I tried to release but missed the brake lever, instead I just pushed it around the down tube and had a much harder time reaching and actuating it. I have no trouble picturing how this could cost me valuable time and altitude in an emergency situation.
http://rmaddy.wordpress.com/author/rmaddy/
rmaddy | Head in the clouds
Rick Maddy - 2009/04/04 20:17:05 UTC

WWDD 09 - Day 6 - Great Day

I was over controlling like crazy. I actually went for the release just above tree level and missed. I hit the top of the release and knocked it sideways a little.
What were the other means you used for securing the actuator to the downtube before finally settling on velcro?
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..
Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
With what different pin shapes did you experiment and under what range of pressures before adopting bent as your universal standard?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 17:34:33 UTC

Her hand slipped on the metal tube as she was expecting a light pull.
What was the thinking behind adopting a barrel release with a slippery grip and a heavy pull?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC

Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.
Why are secondary / one point bridles two to four feet instead of six to eight inches long?
Why was the idea of using a thimble on the bottom eye of a two point bridle rejected? What problems was it causing?
Why was 200 pound Greenspot rejected for three hundred pound gliders while 130 was found to be ideal for two hundred pound gliders?

http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Quest Air Aerotow FAQ
Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong...
When you tested Cortland line what range of variation did you get and how much better was its consistency than the other lines you tested?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJGUJO5BjnA

067-14615
Image
Image
098-20006

What brand of hook knife do you recommend for dealing with release failures and weak link failure failures?
What dangerous problems were the AT operations having twenty years ago which were subsequently slowly refined out of existence?
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
Why did you opt for slowly over decades instead of quickly over hours?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
What have your own personal contributions been?
- Brake lever on the downtube?
- Velcro?
- Three foot secondary bridle?
- Bent pin release that you can't grip or pull?
- One-size-fits-all 130 pound Greenspot structure, pitch, lockout protector?

Or was all of that Bobby twenty years ago?
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25129
Ridgerodent gone?
Sam Kellner - 2011/09/10 02:24:50 UTC

Wow...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

...finally dropped off the 1st page. :cry:
Yeah, the issue of the PURPOSE of the weak link was declared to have been settled, it was conceded that Tad's Shear Links would immediately kill all who came in direct or indirect contact, and they had to make room for a discussion on how to approximate the breaking strength of 130 pound Greenspot without actually having to use 130 pound Greenspot.
I was working up some harmony for Rooney Tunes. :D
There was never the slightest doubt in my mind that you were, Sam. Always know what your strengths are and go with them.
Jim Rooney - 2011/09/10 03:10:04 UTC

C'mon, sing it with me!
...
Trollin trollin trollin... keep those wagons trollin... trollin trollin trollin... raw-hiiiiide!
YA!
...
Yeah, EXTREMELY clever, Jim. Finding words in songs that rhyme with troll and making the substitutions. That way the idiots who listen to you are less likely to notice that you don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about.
Seriously though...
No, stay with that. Give Sam the break he needs to REALLY be accepted into the Flight Park Mafia.
...my guess is he "got a talkin to" by Davis or Scare.
Yeah, probably. I'm sure that he was properly chastised and saw the error of his questioning of their supreme authority.
He didn't seem all that bad... we've had far worse for sure... he was just a zero on the productive discussion scale.
Stay tuned, Head Trauma. I'm gonna keep working to make him - along with grade school arithmetic - one of your worst nightmares.
That one liner stir-the-pot shit was for the birds.
Maybe he'll come back and play nice with the other kids.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/24 16:26:09 UTC

Welcome to towing.
We've been doing this a long time and are quite familiar and comfortable with our processes.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

So, argue all you like.
I don't care.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 06:23:15 UTC

You're right too... at the end of the day, he's a Troll... just as Tad is a huge troll.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 06:04:23 UTC

Take this weaklink nonsense.
What do I "advocate"?
I don't advocate shit... I *USE* 130 test lb, greenspun cortland braided fishing line.
It is industry standard.
It is what *WE* use.

If someone's got a problem with it... we've got over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND TANDEM TOWS and COUNTLESS solo tows that argue otherwise. So they can politely get stuffed.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 07:22:00 UTC

I don't say "trust me" and move on.
But when I say "this is what we do and it works", I'm sick to death of hearing BUT YOU'RE WRONG!!!!!!!!
Bullshit.

This thread started with just that... OH MY GOD!!!! I can't believe you're doing things this way!!!!!
To which my answer is... F you... we've been doing it this way for years... successfully.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 17:34:33 UTC

Those people can get stuffed... they're wrong.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 08:34:12 UTC

Yeah, I've read that drivel before.
It's a load of shit.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 19:49:08 UTC

This is going to be a bit harsh, but I honestly don't care what you think.
You're not the one making the decisions here.
And if you don't play nice with the other kids under the rules Jim and his fellow Flight Park Mafia goons make up as they go along you can get fucked - 'cause we're not gonna be able to use the Dragonfly we bought the motherfuckers to get us airborne. Shoulda seen that coming a dozen years ago.
Who knows?
Davis Straub - 2011/09/10 04:47:32 UTC

Nothing from me or Scare. I did lock down two threads though. One had a link to a Tad thingy.
You mean the article on never assuming you're hooked in?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18695
How could this accident happen?
Davis Straub - 2010/01/28 06:10:17 UTC

I have tried to launch unhooked on aerotow and scooter tow.
Good thing you locked it down. And you just keep assuming you're hooked in. And DO try to fly more sites like McConnellsburg, Whitwell, Henson, and Lookout more often.
Steve Davy - 2011/09/10 06:45:30 UTC

http://www.xenodochy.org/ex/calfpath.html
Jim Rooney - 2011/09/10 08:16:41 UTC

Can't tell if you're just trying to be "mysterious", ambiguous, or just having a laugh.
Yeah Jim, being able to tell stuff has never been one of your strong suits.
But you're just saying all kinds of nothing.
You mean like this?:
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.
Man up and say something.
Zack C - 2011/08/31 02:45:17 UTC

Are you saying that straight pins were considered initially but discarded because you have to use weak links with them?
This is a discussion forum... discuss something.
Just don't expect any straight answers to critical questions that - no matter how he answers them - are gonna make Jim look like the total asshole he is.
All this one liner bullshit is just that... bullshit.
And this:
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.
isn't?
Hence why I keep saying you're trolling.
Well if God's Special Little Messenger says something it needs no explanation - it's obviously God's Honest Truth.
I'm taking a break from that for the moment... give ya a chance to actually join in rather than spitballing from the sidelines.

Your choice.
Just don't start scoring too many points against the Asshole Squad, or you're gonna get locked down, deleted, and/or banned.
Jim Gaar - 2011/09/10 16:07:07 UTC

OK I read the damn thing...
Astonishing. There were some three syllable words in that one.
I see.
I guess there's a difference between reading something and understanding it.
Davis is that first calf leading us all down the road to no where, right Ridgey?
No, for that to work Davis would've actually had to have had an original IDEA about something. The only thing Davis has ever been able to do is copy somebody else's crappy bent pin idea. At least the goddam calf had enough brains to pioneer something and successfully accomplish a goal. Name ONE THING in hang gliding that would've happened if your douchebag buddy - or you - had been eaten by sharks thirty years ago.
Funny, but way off the beaten path. We as humans...
...and Gods...
...certainly seem to do this in many walks of life, but with flying I find it not to be true unless your focus is very, very narrow. Kinda like that ridge you keep flying down.
What?
NMERider - 2011/09/10 18:14:51 UTC

Damn! That was pithy and poetic. Almost prosy. :D
Don't forget totally clueless.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25174
Build Your Own Weak-link Tester
Steve Davy - 2011/09/14 07:59:23 UTC

http://www.towmeup.com/linkbreaker.html
THERE IS A HUGE MISCONCEPTION IN THE PILOT COMMUNITY RELATED TO HOW STRONG A TIED WEAKLINK ACTUALLY IS IN PRACTISE! KNOWING WHAT LOAD YOUR WEAKLINKS WILL WITHSTAND BEFORE THEY BLOW OUT IS CRITICAL TO FLIGHT SAFETY. A WEAKLINK THAT BLOWS OUT PREMATURELY CAN IN MANY CASES BE WORSE THAN USING NO WEAK LINK AT ALL!
Gee Stuart, do ya think?
Jim Rooney - 2011/09/14 09:34:20 UTC

Not really sure where you're quoting from, but your link doesn't follow your quote.
Did you try searching for a chunk of the text from the first sentence or just looking around the site a little bit?
The very first sentence from your link...
A weaklink is an absolutely essential element for the safe operation of any towing system and must be used for all tows to ensure the safety of the towing operation.
Doesn't really line up with your quote.
You're right. Stuart's something of an asshole (don't worry, nothing of your caliber) - as evidenced by a good bit of everything so far quoted and this:
Most reliable sources believe that a weaklink should be sized so that it breaks at 75% to 100% of the inflight load.
also from his site.

And here's somebody who's got it a lot righter than most:

http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28697
Weak links why do we use them. in paragliding.
Ake Larsson - 2010/02/13 16:31:31 UTC

In the my part of the world (flatland Sweden) where you have to tow to get some airtime no one uses weaklinks, I belive it is the same in Finland. Even most of the beginner training is done on tow in Sweden and whitout a weaklink. Play the %, a weaklink might save you one serious accident in a hundred years but will give you a lot of smaller accidents when it breakes.
So Stuart - and Jim... If the fucking weak link is so goddam absolutely ESSENTIAL for the safe operation of any towing system, how come we're not hearing about people dropping like flies at all these operations that aren't using them.
Testing's great, but your conclusions are wrong.
What conclusions? All he did was quote something.
How about instead of trying to stir the pot, you try maybe having a conversation?
How 'bout instead of ignoring questions you don't like and/or can't answer you plead ignorance and/or stupidity?
Dawson - 2011/09/14 09:40:33 UTC

Or, the simple method is to tie a loop of rope to the rafters in your garage/shed/hangar/neighbors lounge room, hook your harness to the rope, but with a weak-link between your karabiner and the rope ( maybe use a steel ring on the rope ). Climb into the harness and check your height - you should adjust the rope so that you are hanging just an inch or so above the floor.

A good weaklink will not break with you hanging there, but will break if you just bounce your weight on the weaklink a little, i.e., it's got to be a little bit over 1G.
Good, Dawson, let's do it that way.

- We don't hafta install the weak link on and engage it with the material and hardware that'll be used in flight 'cause what possible bearing could that have on anything?

- We can ignore the mass of the glider itself 'cause that's pretty trivial - only 45 percent of the minimum hook-in weight of a U2 145 for example.

- We'll use an International Standard Little Bounce so our results are consistent and repeatable.

- And we'll get a weak link a little bit over one G - regardless of whether it's on the end of a towline or two or one point bridle.

- And, of course, one G is what we should all be shooting for because it's RECOMMENDED and a GOOD RULE OF THUMB for preventing gliders from getting into too much trouble.
Jim Gaar - 2011/09/14 13:05:23 UTC

There's just no one single solution.
No, of course not. Hang gliding isn't like sailplaning where you just use a weak link 1.3 to 1.4 times the maximum certificated operating weight. This is hang gliding where you might rip your wings off or lock out.
Based on my experience with AT and PL launches...
Oh good. Another bozo who wouldn't know what a number was if one bit him in the ass is gonna give us his OPINION based on his EXPERIENCE.
...the weaklink will break at different points, times, moments, situations no matter the type, size, length, whatever.
Did you try 1.5? Did you try using a weak link to protect the glider from overloading?
I've had the same type weaklink break at any number of situations whether it was less then 1 g or more, knotted or doubled, whatever.
Really?

- What was the G rating range of the weak links you test flew?

- How did you determine the breaking strengths of these weak links? I'm guessing the Dawson Method 'cause I'm not hearing you raise any questions about the validity of his technique. Or maybe you used the Quest method of declaring a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot to be 260 pounds, about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider, and a double loop, of course, being twice that.
The point is to have a weaklink that doesn't break when you don't want it to...
Did you try 1.5 Gs?
Good luck with that.
Did you try 1.5 Gs?
The best defense is always to be ready and aware. The last thing I say to folks I am launching off carts and platforms is, "Be ready for an early release or weaklink break." It should be on your personal checklist as well.
Well, yeah. OBVIOUSLY. There's just no freakin' way we can get a weak link which doesn't break when we don't want it to and to protect ourselves from the weak link whose PURPOSE...
is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.
...we've ALWAYS gotta be ready for it increasing the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13689
eating dirt
Jim Gaar - 2009/09/18 19:23:44 UTC

Hell I've literally shoved the control frame out in front of me to avoid a whack when it got a little ahead of me in a light DW landing, similar to when I've had to slide it in on my belly (did that once after a weaklink brake coming off a launch cart.
Great job of reacting to your weak link increasing the safety of your towing operation, Jim. There's just no beating you professionals.
Tow me up. I'll find my way down
Don't you hafta find your way up first, asshole?
Steve Davy - 2011/09/14 14:18:24 UTC

http://www.towmeup.com/weaklink.html
Which, in part reads...
A popular misconception uses a very common 135 pound test green spot trolling line. In fact the myths associated with this product are so strong we no longer carry it. If you wish to obtain some, it can be easily found at any decent fishing store as Dacron Trolling Line made by the Green Spot company. Here's how the myth goes - Look at the knot tied link shown in the picture above. Many, many pilots believe that if you take a 135 pound weaklink line and tie it in a loop that it will break at 270 pounds. The logic is that there are 2 parallel load paths sharing the load, each one capable of withstanding 135 pounds. They miss the fact that any properly tied weaklink will ALWAYS fail at the knot. The line is pulled tighter and tighter at the knot and should break right at the knot every time. Depending on the knot used the line will break at 40-60% of its rated strength. Typically a weaklink tied with a double grapevine will break at slightly over the rated strength of the line. The only way to tell for sure is to break test it with a calibrated tester. There have been many inadvertant weak link breaks caused simply because pilots ASSUMED that the link was stronger than it was. This has led to the asinine belief that if one loop is good 2, 3, or 4 is even better.

In use the weaklink material will stretch well over 60% in length before it fails at the knot. Adding a multitude of loops makes it impossible to spread the load evenly, and the link will likely bind up causing it to fail in an often unpredictable and unrepeatable manner. To ensure consistent breaking strengths, stacking equal length weaklinks works, using a single appropriate strength link is the best, and multiple wraps should never be used.
- It's 130 pound.

- It's Greenspot.

- It's made by the Cortland Line Company.

- That's not the myth. The myth is that if you ISOLATE the Fisherman's Knot in the center of the Double Lark's Head with which it's installed on the bridle "it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation" and will thus blow at 260 pounds.

- Another port of the myth is that the Double Lark's Head itself isn't really a knot and will thus have no bearing on the equation (despite the fact that it's virtually always at one of the two points the Greenspot exits the Double Lark's Head that the failure occurs).

- Another part of the myth - and the REALLY asinine belief - is that it doesn't matter whether it's on the end of the towline or of a bridle - it will still blow at 260 pounds towline tension.

- Yet another part of the myth is that all solo gliders weigh 260 pounds.

- And still another part of the myth - and a completely asinine belief - is that "A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G".

- NOBODY in hang gliding uses the words "stronger" and "better" in the same sentence when they're talking about weak links.

- Dacron doesn't stretch sixty percent before blowing. More like a quarter of that.
Jim Gaar - 2011/09/14 14:42:18 UTC

Really good site though!
Ya think so, Jim?

http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28697
Weak links why do we use them. in paragliding.
Stuart Caruk - 2010/02/11 20:26:44 UTC

Sometimes Tad goers to far, but many of his observations are spot on.
Been there, done that.

For moi, old news and boring...
Yeah Jim. Obviously. You've got this stuff DOWN.
Jim Rooney - 2011/09/14 17:20:14 UTC

Ditto.
Yeah Jim. Ditto. And you also aren't saying anything about the Dawson Method. And that means you're ALSO totally cool with it.
Here we are again Ridgerodent.
You seem to fail to understand that we've been at this a very very long time.
Yep. Just like the cults who for hundreds of years dutifully sacrifice virgins to volcanos each night to ensure the Sun God reappears in the eastern sky the next morning. They've been doing it for a very very long time, they're very very good at it, and it ALWAYS WORKS.
Some of us do this for a living...
Mostly 'cause you're too fucking stupid to be able to do anything else.
...and have been discussing these issues before you even started flying hang gliders.
No you haven't, shithead. He started flying hang gliders when they were still being towed from the frame, several years before there was any trace of practical aerotowing, over a decade before the Dragonfly arrived as a presence on the scene, and well over two decades before you began rearing your ugly stupid head in the sport.
We've been through all this crap loads of times...
Why bother? You had the perfect primary release...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it.
...the perfect backup release...
The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
...and the perfect weak link...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hhpa/message/11155
Question
Shane Nestle - 2010/09/17 22:17:50 UTC

So far I've only had negative experiences with weak links. One broke while aerotowing just as I was coming off the cart. Flared immediately and put my feet down only to find the cart still directly below me. My leg went through the two front parallel bars forcing me to let the glider drop onto the control frame in order to prevent my leg from being snapped.
...for twenty years.
...yet you seem to think you're going to somehow educate us...
WAY too easy. But I'll probably be using that one a lot in the near and not so near future.
...because you've read some shit on the internet?
Versus the absolute shit that you dickheads put on the internet.
zzzzzzzzz
No Jim. Keep talking. Every time you open your mouth I just get stacks of the coolest ammunition.
William Olive - 2011/09/14 21:51:55 UTC

This has been done to death.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12512
Weak Links
David Williamson - 2008/07/04 21:39:42 UTC

Has this subject ever been discussed on the Oz Report before? Well today I went aerotowing for the first time in six years and the first time on a topless glider. I took the first tow of the day and was on a 2X30kg weaklink...
Why? What were you trying to accomplish with that particular piece of string?
...which snapped before the tug had even pulled me one step forward.
Well then...
The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.
Sounds like Rooney was ABSOLUTELY RIGHT all along. Who'da thunk?
My lazy technique of holding the tug back as long as possible and letting it catapult me off my feet did not help, but this has always been fine in more commercially orientated situations where the weak link may have been stronger.
Ooh! Sounds dangerous! You might have actually gotten airborne with that approach. And with a dangerous pop start to boot.
Then I take the first step to the run, and I am now running 25 mph, I am thinking, oooOOOOH SH#T, hope I don't have to run that far, hoping the HG gets lift so I don't have to run no more... My F-A running down the runway like a rocket. There is no wind, I have the right angle of attack, the HG is up, but still not enough lift for the pilot.

I can't reach my CUT line 'cause I have both hands on the downtubes, and if I let go of the Coke bottle grip I will crash.

I feel like pushing the HG into the air, or jumping up so it can lift, but I do not - that would make my situation worse.

I feel I am about to fall into the asphalt face first and crash, I am at my run limit, and feel I can not take another step. Still the glider is not lifting me.
Instead of a nice, smooth, controlled running launch gradually transitioning you into flight.
Later in the day I launched with a doubled up weaklink of 4X30kg and , after I came up too quickly through the prop-wash, I ended up in a stable lock-out to the left and was given the line by the vastly experienced tug pilot...
- If he was go goddam vastly experienced why wasn't he using a dolly to launch you?

- If he was go goddam vastly experienced why did he let you get behind him with a weak link on the first flight which wouldn't even allow you to move in the course of an otherwise safe foot launch?

- Why are you foot launching for aerotow and even bothering to bring up weak links as factors in your safety?
...who was being dragged back towards stalling speed. The weaklink did not break. I summise that, as two stands are too weak, and four strands are too strong, the range of safe and useful weaklink strengths is quite narrow in an aerotow situation.
Great. So we've determined that three strands of 30 kg is strong enough to get you going if you don't hold back too much for a lazy launch and yet light enough to break before you - or the tug - can get into too much trouble. So even if you have a shit tug driver who won't do your job for you when there's no freakin' way you can take a hand off the bar to get to your Koch Release you should still be OK.

And there's obviously no point in including a single word in this idiot twenty post thread about the weak link having a function to prevent the glider from being overloaded.

And, back to you Billo...

I can put you on board with the Dawson Method as well?

And, of course, having read that thread from start to finish, we're all totally cool with 130 pound Greenspot for everyone forever, right?

Damn, I wish we'd stop beating this topic to death, just listen to Rooney and the rest of you professionals and experts, and get with the program.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25174
Build Your Own Weak-link Tester
Christopher LeFay - 2011/09/15 04:54:10 UTC

Ratdroppings.
And another failure to comment on the Dawson Method. So you're good with it too.
Might as well put Davis and Gerry on the list while I'm at it 'cause they're not saying anything and we know they're reading this.
Steve Davy - 2011/09/15 06:02:24 UTC
Mediocrity would always win by force of numbers, but it would win only more mediocrity. - Ellen Glasgow
Christopher LeFay - 2011/09/15 09:26:38 UTC

For those of you still out-of-the-loop, Ridgerodent is a bot with a fairly simplistic algorithm- witness the limited, canned responses.
Versus Rooney's long, thoughtful we've been doing this the same way over hundreds of thousands of tows for twenty years so obviously we're right and anybody who questions us is full of shit and/or a troll posts.
And, no: Jim Rooney is not an idiot for responding to him-
No, that's pretty much all genetics, fetal alcohol syndrome, and way too much lead in the drinking water.
'he's' just a somewhat more sophisticated program from a competing...
...and, hopefully, soon to be defunct...
...software company...
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