instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42748
Not happy at Lookout

Seamusless - 2015/06/12 19:24:42 UTC

So you think that because you are both a man of god and a veteran you deserve some type of special reverence from others? How very selfless of you... No wonder you never leave home.

I don't recall hearing him say that, Anonymous Motherfucker. What he DID say was:

What this Matt Taber went and did to me as a Pastor and a 100% Disabled Veteran, is unconscionable.

Although that does imply that when Matt does the some sorta shit to me it's more conscionable.

Marc Bialeck - 2015/06/12 19:32:59 UTC

Sebby - 2015/06/12 12:23:41 UTC

He probably saved your life by not clearing you...

I would like to thank you everyone for all the feedback.

You didn't get feedback from "EVERYONE". Just from some of the people Davis allows to post. So there's obviously a big douchebag bias to consider.

As mentioned in my original conversation with Lookout Mt. I explained in full that I am Ambulatory, and told the people responsible for booking classes for the Aero Tow Course that I was on 35 meds a day, and even named each one. That should have been the time that they told me I would be at risk, and advise me to not take this course. Even when I arrived there and set up all my meds, their wasn't an employee their that wasn't aware of exactly what I was taking. Per the initial phone conversation they recommended to me to take the Aero Tow Course, since I've lost much bone mass in my legs.

Did they advise you to try to avoid landing in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place?

They asked if I'd leave my wheelchair home, and came with only a cane. My Canadian Crutches are restricting for you must reach straight down for the grip and cannot hold anything. I believe if Matt was truly concerned about my physical problems...

...then there would be lotsa pigs with Advanced and Master ratings flying around the Chattanooga area.

...he should have told me at that initial call, or even one of the several calls I'd made. I was cleared by the V.A. to take the course, which is normal routine whenever I take on a new physical undertaking. However, I'm not here to continue to defend my taking the course, but all concerned must understand that I was never given any warning when I booked it, with full understanding of my physical position, and present meds. It all boils down to not someone concerned for my welfare as some feel, otherwise I would not be on this board. A friend from another local Hang Gliding program advised I post this here to make others aware of who they are truly dealing with in the background...

We tried to do that with Antoine's posts. Didn't work very well.

...and have had many students come from Lookout Mt. with similiar related story's, and many of these instructors are familiar with Matt Taber, and his devious practices over a 30 year period, when he began by making carts for the Hang Gliding Wings. So again thank you all for your concern. As the sands run through my hourglass I can no longer afford to fly anywhere to continue with what I hoped would have been the end of my bucket list, with 2 years of Flying a Power Parachute, and a small 3 wheeled cart, and a beautiful rectangular sail. I new I would be able to work with a Hang Glider easier then setting up my Power Parachute, and sold it because of lack of people in the boonies here to help me. Hopefully this will explain to all interested everything that transpired between me, Matt Taber, and the entire Staff at Lookout Mt.

Marc Bialeck - 2015/06/12 19:48:18 UTC

Seamusless - 2015/06/12 19:24:42 UTC

So you think that because you are both a man of god and a veteran you deserve some type of special reverence from others? How very selfless of you... No wonder you never leave home.

I only hope and Pray that when your time comes, and you can almost pinpoint the exact month of passing, to reread what you write at that time. I've never asked anyone for nothing, and will not lower myself to your standards with an explanation of something I was. I never said it made me special, but it makes you very suspect to God that you even write what you did to a minister. I've never said any more then that and like so many atheists you want to start a whole new topic. As I said earlier, I'm too old, and too sick to continue arguing, especially over something that you yourself try to put something I stated that I would deserve any special favor. The people that do are the friends I've already lost to the same disease. You are far from being a righteous individual with your statement.

- How do you know he's an atheist?
- Any chance you could find better support for your position amongst atheists?
- Aviation tends to be really unkind to The Faithful.

Kinsley Sykes - 2015/06/12 19:51:37 UTC

Marc Bialeck - 2015/06/12 19:32:59 UTC

A friend from another local Hang Gliding program advised I post this here to make others aware of who they are truly dealing with in the background...

So a "friend"- who likely feels he lost revenue when you went to Lookout, "advised you to share this story".. No conflict of interest there...

- Wasn't so much of a friend that he was Marc's first choice, was he Kinsley?

- "Local" could mean either the Chattanooga area or Friendship, Wisconsin. But it almost certainly means Whitewater - the latter. In that case he went WAY the fuck out of his way for Lockout.

- So the fuck what? Anybody's who's got a bitch with the other local Hang Gliding program is gonna be able to get the word out on the web someplace at which it'll come to our attention. And nobody's paying Marc anything for this review.

- Since when did you start giving a flying fuck about conflicts of interests? Hang gliding went through DECADES of standard aerotow weak link hell and carnage...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.

It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.

BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

...because hang gliding dickheads allowed Dragonfly dickheads to take over and control the sport.

I really have no idea why Davis posted this.

Must be all those concussions. They change your wiring.

By the way... Any idea why everybody and his dog suddenly upped his weak link strength 54 percent the weekend after Zack Marzec bought it when we had a proven system that worked with an absolutely huge track record?

There is no useful information in here for anyone considering where to go for training.

- Nah, but there's some totally awesome information in there for anyone considering where NOT to go for training.

- Given some of the shit that's gone down in the past couple years... Any "thoughts" on...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC

Well actually he didn't. But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/11 17:46:12 UTC

Because this has been beaten to death - google Tad Eareckson and try to read the mind-numbing BS. Most of the folks who have been towing for decades have worked this stuff out.

The reason for the vehemence of the response is they pile on to any AT accident, with no knowledge of the cause, and trot out the, if only he had a strong weaklink, nothing would have happened.

It's fine to want to work on better solutions to make us all safer by improving technology, it's ugly and inhuman to use the death of a really nice guy to advance your point... in case it wasn't obvious I agree with Bart and Jim, and no it's not a lack of english comprehension - he said there would have been a different outcome with a stronger weaklink.

...the tow park Tad runs, asshole?

Bill Cummings - 2015/06/12 19:56:25 UTC

William Olive - 2015/06/12 01:00:03 UTC

Why would you even post this?

Because hang gliding isn't dying it's being murdered by the status quo.

Here's an even better question... Why is Davis not taking a position on this? 'Cause his ethics as a journalist preclude him from entering any such waters?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42748
Not happy at Lookout

Marc Bialeck - 2015/06/12 20:02:00 UTC

Kinsley Sykes - 2015/06/12 19:51:37 UTC

So a "friend"- who likely feels he lost revenue when you went to Lookout, "advised you to share this story".. No conflict of interest there...
I really have no idea why Davis posted this. There is no useful information in here for anyone considering where to go for training.

I am so glad and so fortunate that the instructors at Loookout acknowledged what Taber had done, and did many times before over the years. There's no money's involved with this Friend, nor am I considering another course. Time is pressing and too late to go through everything again. It's too bad you relate to others only by putting them down, rather then understanding the written word.

Or that two plus two doesn't necessarily equal whatever the fuck Davis Dead-On Straub and/or Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney feel like saying it does at any given moment.

Tom Lyon - 2015/06/12 20:07:59 UTC

I am very sorry for your bad experience, and I thank you sincerely for your service. All wars are awful, but that one was a form of hell that I can scarcely imagine. I'm just a little too young to have been drafted, but my brothers are your age, and my dad was in the USAF during the Vietnam War.

Oh, so you're talking about the bad experiences he had with Vietnam and Agent Orange - rather than the ones at Lockout with which he appears to be upset at a comparable level.

Regarding this situation, it does appear to me that hang gliding might not be the best choice for you...

I can one hundred percent guarantee you that it's not the best choice for you, Tom.

...but I do respect that you felt that you clarified everything before you even left WI. I'm just sorry that it's been a bad experience.

I hope you can move on from this and enjoy other aviation-related activities.

He can't. These WERE the other aviation-related activities. I can't either.

I actually get a huge amount of enjoyment out of the RC aircraft that I build as well.

Stick with that. You won't hafta listen to any more of Dr. Trisa Tilletti's bullshit about weak links.

I just built a tiny little indoor flyer that weighs just 2.5 oz and is perfect for a calm summer evening outdoors. I guess what I'm saying is that I've had some success in focusing my attention forward on new adventures, but I am in no way meaning to diminish your experience. Regardless of the circumstances, it's unfortunate that your trip ended up being an unhappy one.

Mine did too. And I went down there as a Hang 4.9 with no intention or desire to fly anything.

We can all agree that we don't wish for that to happen to anyone.

No we can't. I'm totally cool with tons of really rotten shit happening to tons of really deserving rotten motherfuckers - like Matt, fer instance - in this sport.

Tankpets - 2015/06/12 21:02:12 UTC
Tennessee

a response

Hey there fellow pilots.

Oh. You're assuming your addressing PILOTS on The Davis Show. And "fellow" ones.

My name is Cj Giordano, I work at LMFP.

CJ Giordano - Georgia - 92214 - H3 - 2013/02/08 - Daniel Zink - FL AWCL CL FSL

- Not exactly oozing with merit badges, are ya? 'Specially considering the resources and opportunities you undoubtedly have.
- Not a certified instructor - for whatever that's worth. A bit odd though.
- Got your Three six days after Zack Marzec bought it at Quest. Any comments?

We all got together yesterday as a staff...

- Which did or didn't include Matt?
- Who the fuck is "We"? Let's have all the names.

...and posted this response to Marc's original review on Facebook. I thought I'd post it here in case anyone was interested in what we have to say for the specific accusations made here. Thanks for taking the time to read it. Fly high fly far! - CJ

And always remember that you are not hooked in until after the hang check and to use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less.

A little "foreward":

"Foreword".

We provide hang gliding training, some of the best in the world.

Based on what?

27-3509
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5597/15703164475_348903ed84_o.png


Your crash statistics?

At the end of they day it's up to the individual to meet the requirements.

And there's simply no fuckin' way there could POSSIBLY be anything wrong with what you're teaching and/or how you're teaching it. After all, you just told us you provide some of the best hang gliding training in the world. Certainly no conflict of interest issues there.

Sometimes piloting a hang glider is above the skill and ability level of the individual.

Sometimes it's above the skill and ability level of even a Hang Four tandem aerotow instructor pro toad...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...right after his Rooney Link has increased the safety of the towing operation and severely inconvenienced him.

We went above and beyond in helping Marc realize his dream of flight.
Marc was not at the level to safely pilot a glider so we couldn't in good faith let him solo. It would not have been the right thing to do.

Since when...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=4171
Have you ever blown a launch?

David W. Johnson - 2007/11/05 00:57:23 UTC
Huntsville, Alabama

Just so you will know, blowing a launch is probably not the worst feeling in the world.

My fourteen year old daughter's first mountain launch went wrong. I got to watch her fall forty feet into the trees.

Everything turned out alright. She bruised her knee and even the glider wasn't badly hurt, but I have never posted the video on the net out of concern for the sport.

...did you motherfuckers start letting issues along those lines influence your decisions?

We delivered what Marc paid for, comprehensive hang gliding training.

Which included an autographed copy of:

HANG GLIDING FOR BEGINNER PILOTS
By Peter Cheney
Published by Matt Taber
Official Flight Training Manual of the U. S. Hang Gliding Association

In this rare situation where the student would not continue, or accept the the guidance of his instructors, we refunded him the remaining of his training that he didn't use. We've responded below to each of the complaints against us for those who are interested.

I'm ALWAYS interested.

Apparently he thought I put $2,400 down on a glider which was a misinterpretation on his part.

Marc was indeed interested in purchasing a glider from the beginning of the training, which we advised against, since he was just beginning his training. Marc insisted that we sell him a glider without completing the training or holding any certifications, which is unheard of, irresponsible and immoral.

- Irresponsible and immoral... Maybe - depending upon the circumstances. Unheard of?

- We could get into a real interesting discussion on responsibility and morality looking at all the fatal glider crashes and the competence levels of the people who died doing what they loved. There's no guarantee that a Hang 5 won't kill himself that afternoon on the T2C you sell him and selling the same kite to a Hang 0.7 isn't necessarily a guarantee that he'll die or get a nasty bruise next weekend.

We agreed to securly hold the money which at the end of his stay was all cheerfully and promptly returned to him.

...he said to me that,(Ahhh, for another $1,500 we can put a set of heavy duty wheels on the Hang Glider for landing.)

Due to Marc's inability to land using his feet...

Name some people in whom you've got a lot of confidence regarding their ability to land using their feet. If this were something within the realm of reality Wills Wing wouldn't be selling half their gliders with built-in basetube wheels.

...or physically lift a hang glider...

...into the turbulent jet stream always six inches above the wing on the ramp...

...we explored the idea of outfitting a glider with dedicated landing gear comparable to what we use on our tandem gliders.

What kind of aerotow release do you use...

1-2602
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5549/13995699911_14ebe6da3f_o.png


...on your tandem gliders? How 'bout weak links? You fly in accordance with FAA aerotow regulations?

We let him know about solo wheels (cheaper), he still wanted/needed full wheels which are much more heavy duty and an additional expense.

They make you buy the last 2 solo tickets needed to qualify.

The aerotow (AT) package provides 15 tandem flights which we have determined is the average amount of training required to solo, however it is not a guarantee. Some pilots require more or less based on there personal progression within the program. Once you are a solo pilot you have to buy your own tickets at $25 a tow. Unfortunately (unlike foot launching) you can't be given an USHPA AT rating with only one or two solo tows, it requires five.

Sometimes over twice that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

...when the coincidence rate is running a bit on the high side.

He (Matt Taber) told his instructors to back off on teaching me, so as to fail the course.

This is simply untrue. Every instructor here is utterly passionate about hang gliding, we truly care about growing the sport.

Yeah, we can tell. Whenever there's a catastrophic incident in the sport - Bill Priday, Arlan Birkett / Jeremiah Thompson, Kunio Yoshimura, Roy Messing, Lenami Godinez-Avila, Zack Marzec, Joe Julik, Kelly Harrison / Arys Moorhead - it's always Lockout staffers wading into the discussions and clearing everything up for us.

Each instructor gives a piece of themselves to the student...

Jon Orders gave his shoes to his last student. Matter o' fact it was the discovery of one of them that lead the searchers to her remains in the fading light.

...we like to say that we will put in as much work as you will.

What does Matt like to say? He's Marc's main target and responsible for all aspects of Lockout's operation... How come we're hearing NOTHING from him?

We train our students until they're made into competent hang glider pilots, can't continue or give up, period.

So where are all these competent hang glider pilots rallying to Lockout's defense? So far there are eight participants in the thread in addition to you and Marc.

- Joe Faust has invited Marc to Dockweiler to fly solo from the dizzying height of fifteen feet.

- Fred Wilson, after one brief stopover, DESPISES Lockout and is in sync with what Marc said.

- From Germany winDfried has flunked Marc on the medical by evaluating two of his posts.

- Sebastian has identified himself only as a Lockout LZ golf cart driver and commented only on how Marc was doing physically what he was saying.

- Bill Cummings made a comment at least mildly supportive of Marc's position.

- Tom Lyon wrote in sympathy.

- Billo, who's an asshole, Seamusless, who's anonymous, Kinsley Sykes, who's a total moron, coward, and mega asshole pretty much just pissed all over Marc without having anything to say.

But NOBODY's talking about all the highly dedicated, competent, professional Lockout instructors to which he owes so much for his present pilot proficiency. Doesn't that seem just a wee bit odd to you? T** at K*** S****** gets better accolades than that on the Davis, Jack, Bob Shows and he's a convicted pedophile, I kid you not, and an unrepentant child molester. Really not much of a showing for the Lockout personnel and program - if you want the opinion of T** at K*** S******.

Marc's inability to safely pilot a hang glider was the sole reason he was unable to gain his certification through LMFP.

But Martin Apopot, who scored his Two at Lockout from Gordon Cayce on 2008/04/27 and broke his neck launching unhooked at Hearne on 2010/01/17 was deemed totally good to go.

...they were told not to sign me off on what I accomplished.

We use student cards to track students progress and sign them off for certain skills so students can train with multiple instructors for a well rounded knowledge base.

Flare timing, spot landing, hang checking, release easy reaching, weak link inconvenience handling, hook knife wielding, tug pilot ass kissing...

Although we did sign him off on some of the skills and tasks, he could not consistently complete ALL the tasks for the USHPA AT rating. We would have happily assisted Marc in transferring to another hang gliding school.

Quest, Wallaby, Florida Ridge, Cowboy Up, Foothills, Kitty Hawk, Ridgely, Cloud 9...

Shawn took my tickets and told me he'd get me a refund of $200.00 for them. At noon the next day I approached Shawn, and he told me Matt refused to give a refund.

Our policy (which aligns with nearly every other flight park and hang gliding school) is that we do not give refunds. In some cases (like Marc's) we will give a partial refund on tandem tickets or other things, only in very special situations like this one, which is why we did end up issuing a refund.

So you're not disputing Marc's account.

The reason we have this policy is that once a student starts training they're using they resources they paid for in the training package. We already used our instructors, aircraft, facilities, transportation and numerous other resources training our customer, which is why we can't issue the refund.

- You CAN'T issue the refund? County ordinance? State or Federal law? u$hPa SOPs?
- So then how come Shawn told him he WOULD?

...and refused to let me even Solo after all my tandem lessons

There was one factor in consideration here: pilot skill. At the end of the day it comes down to the pilot. If the customer is only able to complete some skills/tasks that is not enough. Only once full competent hang glider piloting skills are displayed can the instructor give the student his rating. We didn't feel that Marc was capable of piloting the hang glider safely and unassisted, he could not complete all the tasks (turning, landing, etc) for the instructor to believe in good faith that he could pilot the hang glider. It was not from lack of effort, it was the reality of the situation.

He will make them fail the course initially so they will have to buy more Tandem Tickets to get through the course at $75.00/ticket.

The vast majority of our students complete their packages without additional training, especially when they devote a concentrated period of time to learning.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18777
Accident - Broken Jaw - Full Face HG Helmet

Keith Skiles - 2010/08/28 05:20:01 UTC

Last year, at LMFP I saw an incident in aerotow that resulted in a very significant impact with the ground on the chest and face. Resulted in a jaw broken in several places and IIRC some tears in the shoulder.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545
Cart stuck incidents

Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC

I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 19:41:27 UTC

Why is the devil always in the fine print, and incidentally in the things people *don't* say.

Yes, go read that incident report.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability. She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
That never goes well.
Yet people insist on doing it.

Davis Straub - 2011/09/03 01:39:55 UTC

I think that I know the one that is being referred to.

The problem was an inexperienced female student put on a cart that had the keel cradle way too high, so she was pinned to the cart. The folks working at Lookout who helped her were incompetent.

If pilots demonstrate the skill, we never hold them back. Our goal here is to grow this sport that we all love, which means making hang glider pilots.

Name a few of...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hhpa/message/11700
Question

Zack C - 2010/11/18 05:59:03 UTC

But I'm one of Matt's 'defective products'. The first thing I learned to do in the field at Lookout was a hang check. I was told a story by my instructor about the then-recent death of a pilot who launched without being through his leg loops. The instructor called this pilot an 'idiot'. This is how I was taught to think from Day 1. As you said, it's a bitch to rewire a brain (how's your Dvorak going?). I still haven't changed my mindset and the fact that I rarely foot launch makes it much harder to do so. But I'm working on it.

...Lockout's better products. Give me ONE name. How 'bout just an instructor who isn't a dickhead?

We've sent more solo pilots into the sky over the years than any other school but we do it our way... safely.

Yeah. See above. Really amazing that - with your unparalleled records of successes - there don't seem to be more schools using Lockouts standards as the ones to duplicate.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42748
Not happy at Lookout

Marc Bialeck - 2015/06/12 22:02:49 UTC

Yes, this is to be an expected argument to justify the way I was treated at Lookout Mt. Of course no one will ever admit fault, and the entire fault is why did they not discourage me from coming, knowing exactly what my situation was before I arrived there, and asking me to leave my wheelchair at home. The Physical toll on my legs minus my wheelchair have caused Dioxin affected areas from my knees down to bleed under the skin. I told several instructors that if the bleeding starts going upward from my knees, to get me to the local V.A. or Hospital quickly, before I pass a blood clot. Not 1 person asked if they were getting worse or better. I am trying to Opt Out of the Oz Report, because so many insensitive people, that have no respect for anyone, or what others have done for them in the past, go along with responses that because I'm a Pastor and a Veteran, I'm using that. That is complete Lies. Where have I one time used what I am as an excuse to justify what had happened. It's shameful that CJ, who works in the store suddenly becomes so knowledgeable regarding my Hang Gliding Lessons.

They met as a group. I'm guessing that CJ posted 'cause was the only one they had capable of writing at a mediocre junior high school level.

I've no complaint of any instructor. Only that they weren't honest with me from the first phone call, telling me that my circumstances is why they have the Aero Tow Program. Again, telling them at that time I am on 35 meds a day, and am in a wheelchair, for any kind of distance like shopping at a large store like Wal-Mart! At 67 I find few people show any respect for what an individual has done to help his fellow man.

How 'bout letting us know some stuff? I have way less than zero use for bible thumpers and lotsa folk came out of Vietnam with the impressions they'd done anything BUT help their fellow men, women, people of varying ages.

And there are many people like that here, and there are good people here. And the Good outweigh the bad.

On The Davis Show?

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1041
"Sharing" of Hang Gliding Information ?!?

Merlin - 2012/05/26 14:22:30 UTC

I confess to previously having a bit of an Oz Report habit, but the forced login thing has turned me off permanently, and I am in fact grateful. Frankly, the site had pretty much been reduced to a few dedicated sycophants in any case.

There's a distinct and low limit to how good people can be and do over there without Davis locking them down and/or kicking them off.

But regardless of any excuses Lookout Mt. Staff writes in their defense, it's all corrupted by not telling me from the beginning I should consider another sport, knowing my present physical state before I even booked my round trip flight to go there. As a Pastor I will close with what my profession is. And not like some idiot that said I previously use it to my advantage, making him so much more liable to Our Heavenly Father for his condemnation of a Minister.
The following verses from Proverbs define Matt Taber, and all the people he uses to justify his lies regarding me, and what was told them from the first phone conversation regarding my physical attributes at that time.

Proverbs 11 (NKJV)
1
Dishonest scales are an abomination to the Lord,
But a just weight is His delight.
2
When pride comes, then comes shame;
But with the humble is wisdom.
3
The integrity of the upright will guide them,
But the perversity of the unfaithful will destroy them.
4
Riches do not profit in the day of wrath,
But righteousness delivers from death.
5
The righteousness of the blameless will direct[a] his way aright,
But the wicked will fall by his own wickedness.
6
The righteousness of the upright will deliver them,
But the unfaithful will be caught by their lust.
7
When a wicked man dies, his expectation will perish,
And the hope of the unjust perishes.
8
The righteous is delivered from trouble,
And it comes to the wicked instead.
9
The hypocrite with his mouth destroys his neighbor,
But through knowledge the righteous will be delivered.
10
When it goes well with the righteous, the city rejoices;
And when the wicked perish, there is jubilation.
11
By the blessing of the upright the city is exalted,
But it is overthrown by the mouth of the wicked.
12
He who is devoid of wisdom despises his neighbor,
But a man of understanding holds his peace. N'Christ Jesus, Amen Pastor Marc

Now for those of foolish heart continue to comment.

OK, you're way ahead of me. Cite some evidence to substantiate any of those other than the Second.

I am done...

No you're not.

...and only posted initially through the request of a friend who knows what goes on at Lookout Mt. Flight Park so much better then just what I've been through.

So how come he doesn't:
- have a name?
- post anything himself?

Marc Bialeck - 2015/06/12 22:16:04 UTC

May God Bless and Keep You Jackie for your kindness, with so much bitterness here.

And just imagine how much bitterness there would be there if it weren't for Davis's edit, lock, delete, ban buttons.

I know soon I will be reunited with our Father...

But not our Mother?

...and the shameful comments towards me will come back on those that make them 10 fold. But a kind word is like a breathe of Fresh Air. What so many are too naive to understand is Nov of 1966 was yesterday to me, and I'm already tired and worn out from defending myself which ends now. I've not fabricated anything...

On this... Probably not. But your belief system and profession as a pastor is based pretty much entirely on total fabrications.

...and hold the name of the instructors that told me that Matt told them not to pass me because of some conversation I had with Matt. Well, there never was any kind of conversation with Matt, and my instructor was as dumbfounded as I was when he told me that. I wish no one Ill Will...

You don't need to. God's gonna take care of all that for you in the afterlife.

...and our Father already knows what's expired between me and Lookout Mt. So Mr Davis, thank you for allowing me my piece of what I experienced, and wish you all well.

Me too. 'Specially Matt, Davis, Billo, Kinsley.

Marc Bialeck - 2015/06/12 22:19:47 UTC

Mr Davis, thank you for my initial post...

And, Pastor Marc, thank YOU for copying and pasting that entire initial post in this reply. Big help to the thread and reader.

...and unfortunately all the replies I'm left to answer to. I've reached my limit and if you'd like to keep my posts here that will be fine with me. But I no longer need to put up with many foolish accusations against me, so if you can unsubscribe me, I've had enough. Thank You. Pastor Marc

Yes Davis. Unsubscribe him. That way he won't be forced to continue responding to stuff.

Marc Bialeck - 2015/06/12 23:11:25 UTC

Jackie, not related to anything here, I love your profile pic of your baby. I have 40 years of pets that I lost from age or sickness, and soon their ashes will be mixed with mine, that we may be reunited for eternity.

Or at least until our planet gets vaporized by our dying sun.

It is so good to be back with my wife and our 4 cats (Kids). Now many know why I've lived as secluded from people as possible. It will be that way now until God calls me back home to rest.

I'da thunk that that would've cramped your style just a wee bit in your function as a pastor.

It just seems the worlds turned around to sin and lies, and self serving people today.

Certainly the pattern of degeneration of the sport of hang gliding.

A true friend is 1 in a million. Thank You.

Have him introduce you to his outstanding instructor at Cloud 9. He and his lovely twin are totally into religion based hang gliding - and, through u$hPa and the Towing Committee, SOPs, magazine, making sure their faith gets shoved down everyone else's throat as well.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42748
Not happy at Lookout

Ken de Russy - 2015/06/12 23:50:40 UTC

I am impressed that it is possible to buy tandems so cheaply as $100 even in bulk.

Well, when you've got your ride factory properly geared up.

I would not have guessed that such a low rate was still possible.

And the costs of gas and heroine are way the fuck down now too. Are these great times or what!

I am also impressed that you received a $200 refund.

After he was told he would by one of his instructors? Me too.

My policy was always "No Refunds."

Ditto for Steve Parson, Arlan Birkett, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Jon Orders, Kelly Harrison.

Matt has never been anything less than an aggressive businessman...

He's been tons o' shit less than just an aggressive businessman - down to and including serial killer.

...and coincidentally he is still in business and prospering.

Yeah, ain't that just great. Who could possibly imagine hang gliding being run for and by nonprofit amateur muppets.

I am not surprised that he accepted you as a student in spite of your disabilities and it seems you were able to complete 15 tandems.

A sack of potatoes is able to complete fifteen tandems - as long as the driver can keep remembering to hook it in and how to configure an idiot-proof two-string anyway.

It is hard to see how you got shorted.

Ever been to Lockout? For me it's pretty much impossible to imagine anyone showing up there and NOT getting fucked over ten or fifteen different ways.

You and apparently the VA judged you were not disqualified to pursue this program and seemingly you were correct in that judgement considering you completed the 15 tandems.

Zero of which were anything close to being in compliance with u$hPa SOPs and FAA aerotow regulations.

You have said little to challenge the determination on the part of the school instructors that you failed to qualify to solo.

And what have they said to support it?

CJ Giordano - 2015/06/12 21:02:12 UTC

We didn't feel that Marc was capable of piloting the hang glider safely and unassisted, he could not complete all the tasks (turning, landing, etc) for the instructor to believe in good faith that he could pilot the hang glider.

Where are the fuckin' GoPros? If this guy is/was a fuckin' clueless as they're saying then how come they don't just put up some representative video? That's one of the very few sorts o' things on which hang glider people could arrive at a pretty quick, accurate, unanimous consensus.

You can be sure Matt and every other school has every incentive to pass all who qualify.

- As slowly as humanly possible. That's why we have perfected spot foot landings as core requirements for all the ratings and upright-only training harnesses to cripple students' abilities to control gliders.

- Get fucked, Ken. The vast majority of these "schools" are tandem thrill ride factories and the actual student is a side business at best. And the qualified recreational pilot is a major annoyance.

Creating pilots is the lifeblood of every school.

Total fucking bullshit. Name some actual pilots these dumps have created. Name some people with ratings who know the difference between:
- angle of attack and pitch attitude
- pressure and tension
- releases, weak links, Birrenators, and hook knives
- an inconvenience and a whipstall
- an easily reachable release and one you can actually use when you need to
- a landing field and a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place
- safe controlled and stunt landings
- hang and hook-in checks
- keen intellect and dumbfounding stupidity

Even though your Veteran, disabled and theological background has no bearing on whether you succeeded you did nevertheless suggest that those elements should have made some difference. What is it that makes you think you were treated differently than students without that background?

Not much. Matt treats EVERYONE like total shit to the maximum extent possible.

Instead of looking like a sympathetic character you sound like you feel entitled to succeed. Take responsibility for the results you produced and rethink the lack of grace your reports exhibit.

Thank you so much for speaking on behalf of all of us involved in and/or with the sport.

I just read LMFP's response...

No you didn't. You read a post from a non-instructor Hang Three with a suspiciously light sprinkling of Special Skills signoffs who works as a T-shirt salesman at the top of the ridge and claims to be posting on behalf of a consensus of Lockout Mountain Flight Park instructors none of whom are attaching their names or are even identified.

THERE IS NO RESPONSE FROM LOCKOUT. And that fact alone should be raising A LOT of red flags with people.

...and your comments that follow. You have still failed to take responsibility for your results.

What responsibility for HIS results? He has ZERO control over what Lockout decides it will and won't do. He could've been a fuckin' aerobatics champ and Lockout could've executed the exact same decisions and justified them with the same sorts of statements. And nobody's challenged Marc's statement that at least one instructor wasn't on board with the decisions that were made.

Your dishonest effort to deny you have used your Veterans status and your religion to obtain special favor is repulsive. Your religious blather is disgusting and immoral.

Yeah. Almost on the same level as...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 18:24:58 UTC

You're the one advocating change here, not me.
I'm fine.

These are only questions if you're advocating change. Which I'm not. You are.

You're the one speculating on Zack's death... not me.
Hell, you've even already come to your conclusions... you've made up your mind and you "know" what happened and what to do about.
It's disgusting and you need to stop.
You weren't there. You don't know.
All you have is the tug pilot report, who himself says he doesn't know... and HE WAS THERE... and he doesn't know.

...SPECULATING about the role of inconvenience in a pro toad tandem aerotow instructor fatality.

The good news is that behavior like yours is contributing immeasurably to hasten the day when the religious will have lost all influence and moral authority. Thank you.

'Cept in hang gliding, of course - which gets stupider by the month.

Lemme ask ya sumpin', motherfucker...

Two and a half months ago we had an eleven year old kid massacred at one of these highly competent tandem hang gliding instruction operations which was followed by the biggest load of cover-up crap in the way of an "accident" report - officially available only to an elite cadre of top gun privileged information decimators - ever compiled in the history of aviation. How come you've got time to wade into this one on behalf of Lockout - which is an UNDENIABLY sleazy operation under control of a very well documented motherfucker - but didn't have the time for a single syllable's worth of comment on the Kelly/Arys two-fer?

And if you're so fucking anti-religious then where the hell were you during the couple decades worth of the Standard Aerotow Weak Link War - 'specially when tandem aeratow instructor / tug pilot Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney was running his sleazy idiot mouth and opening automatic weapons fire on his feet?

[Tad Eareckson]

Davis Straub - 2015/06/13 01:37:32 UTC

I was asked to post this as an article in the Oz Report. Obviously, it did not meet my editorial standards and it was not possible for me to edit it to meet those standards.

Obviously. Your STERLING editorial standards. Can't imagine just how much work it must be for you to get everything as accurate, unbiased, fair and balanced as you do.

I thought that while it was way way out there, it would be of interest to Oz Report forum members.

Don't forget the general public members. You're once again permitting them to feast their eyes upon this incredible resource you've made possible.

I figured that they could judge it for themselves.

Yeah...

http://ozreport.com/rules.php
2015 Big Spring Nationals at Big Spring, Texas

2.0 EQUIPMENT

Appropriate aerotow bridles

Competitors must use appropriate aerotow bridles as determined by the Meet Director and Safety Director and their designated officials. Bridles must include secondary releases (as determined by the Safety Director). Bridles must be able to be connected to the tow line within two seconds. The only appropriate bridles can be found here:

http://OzReport.com/9.039#0
ProTow

and:
http://ozreport.com/9.041#2
More Protows



Pilots who have not already had their bridles inspected during the practice days must bring their bridles to the mandatory pilot safety briefing and have them reviewed. Pilots with inappropriate bridles may purchase appropriate bridles from the meet organizer.

Weaklinks

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle. The tow forces on the weaklink will be roughly divided in half by this placement. Pilots will be shown how to tie the weaklink so that it more likely breaks at its rating breaking strength.

Thanks. Really appreciate it.

Bill Cummings - 2015/06/13 02:58:51 UTC

Ken de Russy - 2015/06/12 23:50:40 UTC

Matt has never been anything less than an aggressive businessman and coincidentally he is still in business and prospering.

Amen brother.

As God is my witness:
-----my experience with Matt T. at Lookout.
Years ago during the winter I was headed for Florida with my boat tow rig. I was coming from Minnesota and stopped at Lookout. On the ramp was a woman named Jen, up from Florida, and she was hooked into her Gemini hang glider. Her husband was on the ramp watching. Jen used a cocoon harness with the thumb loop to hold up the bottom part of the harness for take off. It was too light and at times crossing. She was hesitating and all of a sudden Matt yelled, “GO!!” and started pushing the keel. Jen obviously wasn't ready. The glider got moved ahead of her and the thumb loop pulled her hand off of the down tube and on her first step she accidentally stepped into the harness boot with her left foot and fell prone into the harness. Matt rolled her off the ramp on the base tube wheels. The glider stalled and dove for the tree tops below. Her husband ran to the end of the slab and yelled, "PUSH OUT!!" As Jen got her Gemini out of the dive the base tube was stripping twigs off of the tree tops. She flew to the LZ landed on the wheels and laid there sobbing according to witnesses later in the LZ.
My wife grabbed me by the back of my jacket as I started for Matt and told me to let her husband deal with Matt. I took her advice but advised Jen’s husband to kill the S.O.B.
Down below at a restaurant a server saw my HG, T - shirt and told us that he is a pilot too. We were telling this guy the story and before we got to the unbelievable part he interrupted with, "He rushed her off! Right?"
I said, "Rushed her off?" --- "Hell fire, he pushed her over the end of the ramp on her wheels and then yelled NEXT!"
(Matt's behavior did not warm my soul.)

Also posted at:

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1921
Getting lessons for HG can be tough.

Told ya Bob wouldn't comment and why.

Ken de Russy - 2015/06/13 03:43:19 UTC

As God is my witness...

Never known the fella so I will just have to take your word for it. I am fairly confident YOU exist. Plus what kind of a character witness can an ineffable, invisible, serial killer actually be?

The best. Any total fucking asshole...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 07:51:12 UTC

Ok, here's something to chew on, while we're on the topic.
It's not going to taste nice, but it's the god's honest truth.

It's not going to be nice because it's an affront to ego... which goes over like a lead balloon, but again... too bad, it's the truth.

See, the "everyone's opinion is valid" stuff is for the birds.
No. We don't consider everyone's opinion on these topics.

You're late to the game. Very late.
We've been at this a long freaking time. You haven't.
All these "ideas" that people propose, we've already been through... a number of times.

Don't you think that the people that do this day in and day out have maybe... I don't know... ALREADY THOUGHT OF THAT?

We did.
A long time ago.
Not only have we thought this stuff through seven different ways to sunday, we've tested a bunch of this shit too. And some of it's the stuff that you haven't even gotten around to realizing yet.

It's not cuz we're somehow smarter... we're not.
It's cuz you're LATE!!!
We've just had tons more time at this.

So pardon me if I get a bit irritated at people telling me that I need to reconsider something from someone who's just now getting to something that we've been over a million freakin times already.

Have we explored everything?
No. Of course not.

BUT YOU"RE LATE!
Your ideas have already been hashed through.

This is why this is an affront to ego.
See, people don't like to hear that their special little idea has already been thrown out even before they bring it up.

But that's the gods honest truth.

This is what I'm talking about when I politely inform people that they're not going to be informing me about towing.
It's not that I think I'm "all that"... it's that I've spent more time discussing this shit with people that know what the hell they're talking about then you have time discussing anything about hang gliding at all.

You're late to the game.
Your special little idea's already been discussed... a long long time ago.

...can attribute to him anything he feels like to justify anything he does or says.

I am pretty sure Matt has killed WAY fewer people than your "witness."

Murder in hang gliding is virtually ALWAYS a large scale cooperative effort when a Bill Priday runs off a cliff without his glider, a Jon Orders drops a Lenami Godinez-Avila a thousand feet, or a Kelly Harrison slams an Arys Moorhead into a lakebed (along with himself) there is ALWAYS blame that deserves to be shared throughout the culture - proportional to rank in the power structure. And nobody who's been active for more than a year and hasn't spoken up about something deserves a free pass.

You give me virtually ANY fatality from anywhere in the modern history of hang gliding and I'll give you a pretty solid link to Matt.

In fact from everything I have read about your "witness" Matt has exhibited much better judgement throughout his life.

Yeah? God gave us hummingbirds. Matt gave us the greatest aerotow release in the history of hang gliding that doesn't work and isn't warranted as suitable for towing anything. Name some people who have problems with hummingbirds.

I'll take Matt as MY witness any day.

Matt would be my second choice. My first would be anybody else. Statistically I'd be coming off pretty good.

(But I won't let him keel launch me! )

(But you're perfectly happy leaving him in control of untold tens of thousands of other people's ramp and aerotow launches!

Fuck you, Ken.)

We're approaching three days since this Matt Taber / Lockout Mountain Flight Park public relations disaster first appeared on The Davis Show. Plenty of extremely damning corroborating evidence that neither Matt nor any of his goons are refuting or disputing. As much of an unfit bozo as Marc is supposed to be we don't have a:
- statement from or even an identification of any of the instructors who flew with or even observed Marc
- brief description of anything specific he was unable to grasp or even just doing wrong.

Somebody posts a video of a bonked landing on The Jack Show there will be a minimum of five pages of detailed analysis and recommendations.

Somebody make a case that this Lockout situation doesn't totally stink - even if Marc wasn't a sane candidate for hang glider solo.

I'm pretty sure that if this guy had been dealt with honestly, fairly, professionally, ethically, respectfully throughout this process and been legitimately washed out of the program it wouldn't have been an unpleasant experience and we wouldn't have heard anything about it. But as anybody with half a brain or better who knows anything about Matt and/or Lockout bloody well knows...

[miguel]

I'm pretty sure that if this guy had been dealt with honestly, fairly, professionally, ethically, respectfully throughout this process and been legitimately washed out of the program it wouldn't have been an unpleasant experience and we wouldn't have heard anything about it.

Brilliant!

[Tad Eareckson]

All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten
Robert Fulghum - 1989/10/30

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1921
Getting lessons for HG can be tough.

Scott C. Wise - 2015/06/12 05:26:31 UTC

I once considered working as a Instructor at Look Out Mountain.

But you were required to know how to spell the place?

My impression of Matt Tabor...

Taber.

...is what decided the deal - against working there.

There were other factors such as Look Out having one of the worst safety records (as a hang gliding flying site) at that time. More fatalities than any other flying site in the nation.

- Name some.
- Lockout totally sucks but:
-- name some places that don't
-- it also handles a huge volume

I also recall unrequested launch assist on my keel during the '88 Nationals.

Then we undoubtedly crossed paths. I went down with John Woiwode to free fly (while he competed).

Some idiot was pushing my nose down (to keep me from stalling?) on their launch ramp.

I could've been that idiot. Was crewing (at Whitwell?). Saw lotsa people doing the keel assist, thought "When in Rome...", "helped" a female pilot, nosed her down a bit, felt about three inches high. G.W. banned me off of crew - 'cause obviously I was so stupid that I was highly likely to do that again.

When I yelled out "What are you doing?!" this guy said "It's how we do things here.". I had more than enough cliff launch experience to launch safely without his "help". I later found out that since many of Look Out's students are not properly taught how to control pitch during small hill lessons, someone needed to man the keel to keep them from popping the nose and stalling during their initial (minor cliff launch) mountain take offs.

Takeoffs.

Basically, students are not "taught how to fly" they are "taught how to buy" . . . a lesson package including a New glider.

This was many years ago, mind you. The staff had this goal of making the student think they were...

He was.

...doing great - but also often telling the student they needed more time to get their...

His.

...Novice rating (than the lesson package which they...

He.

...had purchased allowed).

One time, perhaps when I was visiting, thinking of working there, I began talking with an old guy who was hanging out near launch. He explained that he had once owned the property on which the shop and launch were located. He had sold it to Tabor a good number of years before and explained, mysteriously, that he "didn't really have a choice" in the matter. Could have just been an old guy just telling stories, . . . but who knows?

What would've been his motivation? Matt's a corrupt evil motherfucker who does and gets away with whatever he wants. Why do you think that the Dade County Sheriff's Office and Times Free Press report that 86-year-old veteran hang glider Jonas Blanton from Battle Creek, Michigan was killed instantly when he hit a tree while attempting a landing in a Dade County (Tennessee, probably) field at 1836 Creek Road after he had completed a tandem flight earlier in the day (probably not pulled up by a Dragonfly in a Dade County (Tennessee, probably) field at 1836 Creek Road) during his annual hang-gliding trip to Tennessee?

By the way... No hang glider has ever been killed instantly or even badly bruised hitting a tree. Jonas was killed instantly when he hit the Lockout Mountain Flight Park LZ AFTER hitting a tree - just like Bo Hagewood's tandem student/victim Michael Elliot.

There's other stuff I became privy to as well.

Yeah? So you took an oath to never reveal it to anyone else?

Still, it's a nice flying site and if you aren't looking to learn there - and just fly - do what you need to do at the shop, then go have fun! And Hennson's...

Henson.

...Gap is only about an hour away. That's one of the best flying sites in the country.

C'mon Bob. Chip your two cents in on this in support of your Fake Board member and non unrepentant child molester buddy.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1921
Getting lessons for HG can be tough.

Brian Scharp - 2015/06/16 16:43:36 UTC

Surviving lessons for HG can be tough.
Matt sounds like a nutjob.

Matt's scum. No fuckin' way he should be allowed anywhere near hang gliding. Instead we've got him controlling it. (Note the way when Bill reports this on The Davis Show there's not a syllable's worth of condemnation.)

Scott C. Wise - 2015/06/16 21:32:22 UTC

I don't think a "nutjob". Very shrewd is more like it. My hypothesis would be that Matt is excessively money hungry. The comment he yelled out after force launching Jen was "Next!" That probably meant that she was stopping other pilots from getting their own launches in.

And that's Matt's job.

If she was a newer pilot, then conditions (as fits Bill's above description) were probably "mild" (i.e., not soarable). Other new-to-mountain-launching students were probably scheduled to get their first, or not far from first, mountain launches in at the same time.

In their forced-upright student torture harnesses.

The quicker the students get launched the sooner they gain the skill set leading toward the rating they paid (Lookout Mountain HG Shop/Matt Tabor) to attain. Many Novice launches in mild morning air translates to higher profits for the shop. (In the front door and out the back!)

A master at making money (in the minimal flying/gliding/soaring business) knows exactly how delaying students can earn the HG/PG school money...

Why do you think we have consecutive spot stunt landings requirements?

...AND how speeding students along can make the HG/PG school money.

So we can sell gliders and equipment to the people intending to buy gliders and equipment.

For some HG/PG shop/school owners it's of ultimate importance to know which to do and when to do it.

And, of course, to eliminate any actual PILOTS who know what's going on.

But who knows this could all be a "once upon a time" story and things could be different (better) now.

Virtually everything is going down the toilet.

Brian Scharp - 2015/06/16 22:31:21 UTC

Pushing someone off a ramp before they're ready is crazy

Not if your motivation is to degrade the sport and the people interested in pursuing it.

I was actually being uncomfortably polite when I used the term nutjob and nothing you wrote makes me want to downgrade it. If you're saying being "very shrewd" or "excessively money hungry" is somehow a justification for what Bill said Matt did then there's room for you in the same category.

Scott's total, constant, unwavering alignment with Bob isn't enough?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1921
Getting lessons for HG can be tough.

Dave Schy - 2015/06/17 13:11:09 UTC

I watched Chirico push a woman pg student off of the north Tiger launch. She was screaming and he had her on radios, but literally pushed her ass off of launch. I was appalled. I wonder, did she pay him in advance?

WOW! That's fuckin' OUTRAGEOUS! We know that Bob is totally fuckin' outraged by this too but please forgive him when he doesn't comment. He needs to prioritize the REALLY serious issues of Torrey solo paragliding instructors being clipped in without helmets during ground school, Torrey tandem instructors intentionally midair colliding and intentionally partially deflating aircraft carrying precious little passengers of varying ages, and, of course T** at K*** S******, a known and unrepentant child molester, ever being permitted to communicate with any people of varying ages under eighteen under any circumstances.

Hey Dave... Try this little experiment.

- Take another actual atrocity - like the ones Bill and you have posted.

- Swap in T** at K*** S****** or anybody connected with Air California Adventures as the responsible party.

- Watch Bob's reaction.

- Post that it was actually Matt Taber, Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Mitch Shipley, Malcolm Jones, James Tindle, Joe Greblo, Pat Denevan, Peter Birren, Mike Dead-Eye Robertson...

- Watch Bob's try to worm his way outta THAT corner.