http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42842
Fatalities at Jean
Joe Faust - 2015/06/18 13:35:31 UTC
The following is a draft letter proposed for use by the P-saturated org...
Martin Henry - 2015/06/18 14:10:14 UTC
I read this report a few weeks back.
Pretty incisive wasn't it? Not to compare it to your report concluding that Jon had failed to hook Lenami in, but still...
I'm a little disappointing this is not issued as a public document...
I'd have gone for disgusted but you're the industry standards expert.
...but have no doubt it has found it's way out...
Pretty confident 'bout that, aren't ya? What if T** at K*** S****** had been hit by a truck a bit too early in the cycle?
...IMO, its content should be shared with all members of the towing community.
- But definitely not with the NON towing community, folk who are thinking about towing or doing it but aren't yet rated, parents of people of varying ages wanting to research the best pilot training options...
- What exactly is this "towing community"? Where can I go to find this one big happy family in which everybody's constantly striving to get things right and decimate the knowledge and techniques to others? Were Kelly and his tow vehicle operator, primary spotter, and eleven year old student pilot members of the "towing community"?
The report graphically demonstrates the risks of towing and the additional risks of "step" or "turnaround" payout techniques.
Fuck you. It graphically illustrates the risks of stupid jocks using whatever the fuck crap equipment they feel like and the total absence of standards and oversight.
The report also demonstrates how quickly a tow can go wrong and how little time there is to react to terminal event.
Bullshit.
- Things started going wrong when Donnell Hewett bestowed on us his Skyting Theory 34 years ago and then took another sharp turn to the south when the FAA granted u$hPa its tandem exemption.
- Then there's the issue of the assholes at both ends of the rope - the back one now deader than a doornail and the front one in the witness protection program.
- That asshole had all fuckin' afternoon to sort that one out but lacked the towing and radio equipment to save the flight and the brains to use the parachute to save the glider.
A failed modified release...
Tell me what this "modification was. I somehow managed to miss the description in the report. Maybe you privileged information decimators got some photos we muppets were deemed unworthy of seeing?
...also drives home the need to test...
Yeah...
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.
Right.
...and not deviate from a proven system.
'Specially not a proven system that works. When you've got a standard aerotow weak link based on several decades of experience and quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows conducted by numerous aerotow operators across the county you don't just go out and change it - unless of course, Davis Dead-On Straub, who's been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who - suddenly decides he's become happy with something else with fewer inconveniences and coincidences.
This issue of a "spotter" (or lack there of) is again forefront in towing risk management (or any system to enhance tow operator control/awareness).
- Bull fucking shit. Tow operator control/awareness has absolutely no bearing on the safety of the tow ever under any circumstances.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)
Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/01 03:46:29 UTC
Among ourselves, we agree (via the waiver) that we understand we're engaged in a risky sport that can cause serious injury or death. We each agree that we are personally and individually responsible for our own safety. If we have an accident and get hurt, we agree in advance that it is solely our own fault, no matter what the circumstances might be. We sign at the bottom saying that we fully understand these things, that we accept them, and that we know we are giving up the right to sue anybody if an accident happens.
Those are fundamental tenets of our sport. We are all individually responsible for ourselves and our safety. We need to see and avoid all other pilots, avoid crashing into people or property and use good judgment when flying. If someone doesn't agree with those principles, then they don't need to be involved in our sport.
That's a fundamental tenets of OUR sport. If you don't agree with it you can go fuck yourself.
- They HAD a PRIMARY spotter. How many are we supposed to have?
I've studied many towing incident reports...
Must've been quite a task for some asshole with a brain the size of a walnut who takes two and a half months to study an unhooked launch fatality and conclude that the fatality occurred as a consequence of an unhooked launch.
...and believe we have tended to overlook one glaring issue that seems to pass without any attention: Communication.
Oh my Gawd! Who's gonna break this news to all the aerotow people?
IMO...
Big fuckin' surprise.
...I would like to see the introduction of continuous full duplex pilot/operator communication. (and I am not referring to VOX or PTT simplex communications).
Nah, let's not ever discuss a TYPICAL solo pilot radio system with a button on a finger wired into a full face helmet system. Let's go continuous full duplex pilot/operator communication.
Like all accidents...
What do ACCIDENTS have to do with the bullshit that happened at Jean Lake?
...the "what if" scenarios are endless...
'Specially when you've got a couple incompetent douchebags running the show who've decided to fuck up everything they can get their hands on before they even get to the tow site.
...but I suggest many disastrous accidents would have had different outcomes if the pilot and operator where in direct contact.
Like, for example:
Bill Bryden - 1998/12
Rich was platform-launch towing in strong (25-30 mph) winds crossing 35-40 degrees to the tow road. Thermal activity was also reported as moderately strong. The launch sequence commenced with the "go to cruise" command, and the glider cleared the tow vehicle. Approximately 300-400 feet of line unspooled, and according to the data memory in the vario the glider reached about 80-90 feet AGL. The pilot then radioed to the vehicle driver to stop, and a few seconds later the VOX on his radio transmitted the words, "Oh no."
A pilot desperately attempting to deal with a failed release...
...isn't a PILOT. There is ZERO excuse for going up with a release that has any possibility of failing. How many decades do we need to spend dealing with cheap shit that Hang Fives can't seem to be able to figure out and do right?
...or lockout (terminal event)...
Lockout? Terminal event?
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC
It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.
During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?
Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release
Get real, dude.
...simply will not initiate an emergency communication.
An emergency communication like WHAT?
"I fucked up a modification on my idiot-proof typical two-string release, my typical two loop / four strand weak link for tandem surface tow operations properly installed and positioned between the tow bridle and the towline didn't break before I got into too much trouble, my hook knife is typically duct taped to my downtube within easy reach and therefore inaccessible in an emergency, I'm too focused and stupid to go for my parachute, I'm not talking to on this radio 'cause I only rigged it for non emergency use, and I'm having trouble recovering from this lockout. Think you could ease off on the gas a bit?"
An "operator" or "spotter" will not have the pilots perspective without direct two way communications (lockout or ?) , nor will a pilot have the perspective of the operator (mechanical or system event). VOX systems are unreliable. PTT (push to talk) require a manual operation. Neither offer duplex (two way, phone like conversation).
Good job as usual, Martin. It's a tough job to spew this much diarrhea out on one of these Jack or Davis Show threads without addressing anything of any actual substance. Takes a real industry standards expert such as yourself.
One other comment, the "step" or "turnaround" system using a payout winch has unique challenges...
Like showing up with a functional brain.
...(and I'm not aware of to many operators that use this technique).
I'm aware of one who definitely won't be using it again.
One particular item from this incident that I noted missing was the use of a weighted section of line similar to some Euro step tow stationary winch systems.
That's OK. Kelly had a pair of those Wills Wing extended wheel assemblies. If you manage to hook the bridle on one of them it'll keep things in place pretty well.
The weight (or line drag device) should be installed on the tow line far enough from the pilot that during the "turnaround" the line (under very little tension) will drape clear of the glider. This system works well with a stationary winch, difficult to implement on a payout system.
Probably why Kelly didn't implement it. He wasn't much into implementing anything he didn't absolutely have to.
I thank the USHPA for having issued the report to the members...
I'd also like to thank the u$hPa for having issued the report to the members - 'cept:
- it didn't
- the report's a total load o' crap
...(tho I wish, it was a public document).
It is, asshole.
I believe if you operate a winch or you tow, you should read the report...
- How many hang glider people who operate winches or tow do you know who are capable of reading the report?
- I believe if you operate a winch or you tow, you should read the excellent article by Mike Meier, "Why Can't We Get a Handle On This Safety Thing?" (
http://www.willswing.com/why-cant-we-get-a-handle-on-this-safety-thing/). Although published in 1998, the risk mitigation analyses and approaches in the article are timeless and still applicable.
Martin Henry
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41619
Goodbye Bob K?
Martin Henry - 2015/04/15 14:48:28 UTC
This is one of the most bizarre topics/threads I have every followed (rivals Tad's Utopian "release" )
Suck my dick, Martin.
