http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33332
"Flying is an INHERENTLY DANGEROUS activity"??
Bill Jennings - 2015/08/31 11:42:56 UTC
Chattanooga
For the very experienced long time pilots here:
And make sure to limit your inquiry to the very experienced long time pilots "here" - the ones Jack permits you to interact with and reference - and don't even consider that there may be other and far superior sources.
Are there a few (or handful) of things one can do to mitigate most of the risk of hang gliding?
- What? You took your training at Lockout Mountain Flight Park - run by Matt Taber whose name is SYNONYMOUS with safety - and they didn't cover that before they cleared you for high flight? You paid your experienced longtime pilot instructors there to bring you up to a reasonable competence level yet you feel compelled to go out on The Jack Show to solicit OPINIONS on what you missed? Your Lockout instructors didn't tell you not to hesitate to contact them to clarify issues on which you still had or developed a few uncertainties?
- Yes, but...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27736
Increase in our USHpA dues
Mark G. Forbes - 2012/12/20 06:21:33 UTC
We're re-working the accident reporting system, but again it's a matter of getting the reports submitted and having a volunteer willing to do the detail work necessary to get them posted. There are also numerous legal issues associated with accident reports, which we're still wrestling with. It's a trade-off between informing our members so they can avoid those kinds of accidents in the future, and exposing ourselves to even more lawsuits by giving plaintiff's attorneys more ammunition to shoot at us.
Imagine a report that concludes, "If we'd had a procedure "x" in place, then it would have probably prevented this accident. And we're going to put that procedure in place at the next BOD meeting." Good info, and what we want to be able to convey. But what comes out at trial is, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client suffered injury because USHPA knew or should have known that a safety procedure was not in place, and was therefore negligent and at fault." We're constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention.
...don't ever expect them to find their ways into the SOPs and training programs and be accepted as obvious viable solutions on any of the mainstream forums.
For instance, I used to be a GA pilot (Cessnas, etc.), and if you look at two factors, you noticed 80-90 percent of the crashes were related to them. One was running out of gas...
You mean like what effectively and max abruptly happens when a Rooney Link increases the safety of the towing operation or a Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney fixes whatever was going on back there by giving one of us the rope?
...two was pilots flying into weather they were not rated to fly (visual rules pilot flying into instrument conditions, etc.)
Not much of an issue in hang gliding.
Don't to these two things, and you're eliminated 80-90 percent of why GA pilots crash.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses
Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC
Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
Is there a similar few tings to watch for in HG to mitigate most of the risk?
There is more than a few tings. Pretty much everyting the industry insists on you practicing, doing, using to stay safe.
Fletcher - 2015/08/31 12:07:53 UTC
Learn to Launch and Land proficiently and continue to perfect those two skills through-out your flying career.
Which is another way of saying it's impossible to perfect those two skills and keep on doing the same things over and over again in order to be able to achieve better results.
Red Howard - 2015/09/01 04:41:56 UTC
Campers,
Gawd I hate that salutation.
Assuming that the HG pilot has the basic mechanical skills nailed down, such as launching,
By which you mean foot launching. 'Cause nobody ever says anything about dolly or platform launching skills 'cause there aren't any. If you stuff a sack of concrete in a harness for a platform launch and pull the pin when the airspeed indicator hits thirty it'll do fine until the launch itself is history. Foot launching is complex, demanding, and dangerous and very commonly executed in dangerous environments and conditions and it cripples and kills people whose experience and skills are maxed out about as much as humanly possible. By contrast a solid Hang 1.5 will have a really hard time fucking up a dolly or platform launch in anything remotely resembling reasonable conditions.
...turns,
If you haven't got turns down it's 'cause you had a total asshole instructor who didn't teach you how a glider is turned and flown and forced you to fly upright from Day One, Flight One through your first few high flights and he should have his fuckin' ticket permanently revoked.
...and landing,
By which you mean foot landing. Name one HG pilot who claims to have the basic mechanical foot landing skill
nailed down.
...then yes, there are a few real considerations that can reduce a good portion of the risks.
But let's hit him with a load of bullshit fake ones instead - just for laughs.
Preflight inspection is (or should be) a given.
Just make sure you always skip the stomp test the way Rafi Lavin always did through his last flight nine days ago. You sure don't wanna be blowing a sidewire as you're prepping for launch.
You can't stop in midair to assemble or adjust something. If you do not have time for a good preflight, then you do not have time to fly.
- But make sure to never do a half second hook-in check just prior to launch. That gives you a false sense of security that people who do hang checks in the setup and staging areas don't have.
- Name some assholes whose gliders fell apart in flight because they didn't have time for good preflights. If you just do a stomp test on one side of the glider and nothing else there's virtually no possibility of your glider falling apart or becoming uncontrollable in flight.
Launch in good air. Wind conditions usually come in cycles, on any given day. There may be good cycles and bad cycles. Launch when the conditions are good and getting better, not at the end of a good cycle, or in nothing. Still air on launch can be dangerous, and may actually be a serious sink cycle, not just still air. I have seen pilots well capable of a no-wind launch getting surprised by serious sink after launch, even if the launch was successful. Do not be pressured to launch by the hope of a big XC from an early launch, or by convenience, or bragging rights, or peer pressure. The penalties of a blown launch can far exceed any possible rewards, and first responders probably will not be able to find the launch site easily or quickly. They may not even have a vehicle that is capable of the road. This reality is as serious as it gets.
And make sure not to mention anything about using crew in difficult conditions - despite the high profile major catastrophe we had a couple hundred miles to your SSE eight days ago.
Also make sure not to mention anything about dolly and platform launch towing versus slope foot launch. If you tow launch it's not really hang gliding.
Watch the weather, in flight. Cloud shadows that get bigger and darker will mean trouble. Do not expect to dive down faster than a cloud can pull you up. You will be lucky if you can just escape to the side. Staying under a dangerous cloud (circling down) is a very bad plan. Get away sideways, and if you do, ask yourself why you were running for your life in the first place. I doubt that any reason you had would be much comfort to your friends and family. "You don't tug on Superman's cape . . ."
Jim Croce 
Yeah, big issue stuff that kills lotsa pilots and he really needs to know about it at this point in his career 'cause by the time he's in situations like that there's virtually no likelihood that he'll be aware of the threat potential and how to respond.
Land in a good cycle. "Good" at the LZ is the opposite of what you want on launch. If the LZ is cracking off lift and thermals when you get there, use that good lift to maintain altitude until that strong cycle passes. If the good launch cycles came at twenty minute intervals on launch, the LZ will probably have similar twenty minute cycles. Hang tough. When the air goes dead over the LZ, and the streamers are showing only a gentle breeze down there, then do not waste time. Get down, make your approach like you mean it, and land before the next strong cycle kicks in.
And don't worry, Bill. You're always gonna be able to hang out or go back up. You're never gonna get hit by shit on final ten feet off the deck. Mother Nature is very considerate in that regard. So just carefully time things with respect to the cycles and get upright early with your hands at shoulder or ear height for superior roll control and flare authority and to minimize your likelihood of plowing in headfirst.
I have had to go back up when the LZ got active again too soon, because I had been just larking around. That slow descent was a big mistake. I did not try to go back up too high though, and I was ready for the next good landing cycle when it came. As soon as I saw my next chance coming, I started down again, and got on the ground safely.
Great job, Red. I have no idea why nobody covers this stuff in the course of the Hang Two level training. Think of all the serious crashes we could prevent.
Name one person who's been seriously crashed 'cause he landed during a bad thermal cycle. Hang gliders travel halfway around the planet to fly in the most violent thermal conditions they can find and they virtually always fly until they can't anymore. And when they're in the approach patterns they very seldom have options to go back up and hang out for a while. Stay prone on the fuckin' basetube and land on wheels or skids and don't fly into dust devils and you'll be fine. If you don't feel you can land safely in the worst thermal conditions any afternoon is capable of dishing out then don't fuckin' fly that afternoon.
Land in a good place.
Like a wheat field. Just make sure to treat the tops as the surface and execute the crisp no stepper you perfected six months ago and nail every time in the primary putting green.
I can hear the XC pilots yelling already, but I have stopped a flight when down to a couple thousand feet, then landed safely in a big field with a flagpole, a smoky fire, or a pond nearby to show me the wind direction. I really do not need that help, but I won't turn it down when it is available.
- I don't hear any XC pilots yelling already and it's been well over half a day since you posted. That's 'cause ACTUAL XC pilots don't survive more than a month or two into their careers using narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place as options. If you follow their accounts and look at where they're ACTUALLY landing it's virtually always in huge Happy Acres putting greens. Compare/Contrast the yelling we used to hear whenever it was suggested that a standard aerotow weak link was the focal point of an insanely dangerous towing system.
- Wanna say anything about the surface, Red? Or are we good with wheat fields and wide dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place?
Also, I can sure do a low save (nothing to prove)...
Yeah Red, me too. I can always go back up whenever I feel like down to a hundred feet or so. I'd show ya the videos if I weren't sure they'd bore you to tears.
...but if it just takes me farther over tiger country,
How does a low save take you farther over tiger country unless it's blowing like stink? And if it's blowing like stink then how do you pull off a low save?
...with no good landing options, I will pass.
And since you never practice tight approaches your good landing options are a lot fewer and farther between.
I am not less of a pilot if I pass up the last few desperate miles of XC flight.
Don't worry, Red. You'd hafta try really hard to be less of a pilot as things are.
In the desert Southwest, almost any injury in the landing can become a life-threatening ordeal where there are no roads.
Got that, Bill? In the desert SouthWest where there are no roads take extra care not to injure yourself in the landing. Probably a good idea to avoid injuring yourself before and after the landing as well.
Of course, if you are still invincible (I am not),
Hey Jason... Feel free to pop in here and tell everybody how to become invincible in under six weeks.
...you are free to make your own choices there.
- So what's it gonna be, Bill? Do you wanna injure yourself or not? Don't just blurt out the first thing that pops into your head - give it some thought and make sure you carefully consider all the pros and cons.
- And since you're in the desert SouthWest you don't need to say anything to this Chattanooga guy about working on tight approaches.
I have seen the paw-print of a big mountain cat in my own (recent) footprint, and heard rattlesnakes in the bushes at times.
- Yeah, those are biggies. I've had two of my Idaho glider buddies eaten by Mountain Lions that nailed them when they were pulling battens in the shade of the treeline and three succumbing to rattler strikes 'cause their snakebite kits were stowed beyond easy reach in their internal storage compartments.
- Got that, Bill? If you hear rattlers in the bushes don't walk into the bushes. Probably not a good idea to step on the ones you see in the open either - 'specially if they're already rattling.
- But since you're a very conservative pilot landing in an area in which a Mountain Lion can set up a charge isn't really an issue. What's your point, Red? Mountain Lions can and do kill healthy adult male joggers and cyclists in city parks on the edges of the towns. What are we supposed to do about it? Pack heat on all flights when there's a possibility of coming down anywhere within a mile radius of a Mountain Lion and keep monitoring our sixes until the glider's strapped on the racks, the door's shut, and the windows are closed? We've got time to talk about Mountain Lions and rattlers but not about hook-in checks, stomp tests, wire crews, wheels and skids?
The countryside does get a vote, but I decide on where I land, not the GPS.
Do you carry an old Frisbee to drop in the center of the field on your downwind to make sure you're doing things right?
YMMV.
- WHY should his mileage vary? Different aeronautical principles for different individuals? Do REAL aviation pilots and instructors sign off with bullshit like this?
- Yeah Red, it DOES. Here's what Bill asked:
Are there a few (or handful) of things one can do to mitigate most of the risk of hang gliding?
Ya answer that question by looking at what's actually crashing gliders in the real world. And your best indication of what's actually crashing gliders in the real world is what's killing people 'cause:
-- it's pretty much impossible for the hang gliding industry to suppress awareness of the fatals and misrepresent the causes
-- every fatal is representative of about a thousand like pooch screws with a very wide range of less serious outcomes
You haven't told him a goddam thing that isn't either fuckin' obvious common sense stuff that he already knows or is totally useless out in the REAL world.
Neither of you assholes have given him anything of the least value and I notice that after the better part of fourteen hours he hasn't yet come back oozing thank yous for all the great tips.
To your good health,
Cheers,
Red
And if you lose it abruptly, Bill, rest assured that your family and friends will benefit from many prayers from Jack Show posters and many flights will be taken in your honor the following weekend.
P.S. A couple previous comments on this thread starting at:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post8313.html#p8313
