http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016
piano_man - 2016/04/06 19:54:31 UTC
Georgia
I know of at least one advanced pilot who doesn't tow because he feels it's too dangerous.
The way Matt runs things he's right.
This pilot also will not fly if it's too windy @ 12 mph plus.
Must be nice to be able to be that picky about how one gets one's airtime.
So sorry to hear about this, my condolences to all the family and friends.
Eh... She died doing what she loved.
Brian Scharp - 2016/04/06 20:12:25 UTC
Ryan Voight - 2016/04/06 19:19:24 UTC
...suffering fatal accidents WHILE UNDER INSTRUCTION.
More specifically, towing instruction.
Or lack thereof.
2016/04/09 04:04:15 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay
Dan DeWeese - 2016/04/06 20:37:43 UTC
I thought a linkknife could be rigged so that if the AofA gets too high or too far offline, it cuts away the tow line and frees the glider. Am I mistaken?
Lessee...
- Half a dozen literacy errors for starters.
- Yes, it DOES cut away the towline and free the glider if the AOA gets too high - just like a Rooney Link.
- Define too far off line and tell me what the glider's gonna do if...
Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03
NEVER CUT THE POWER...
Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually
...the power is totally cut within the space of a millisecond.
- She WAS equipped with a Birrenator and it appears that AT BEST it didn't help her much.
2016/04/06 21:03:03 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider
Brad Barkley - 2016/04/06 20:51:07 UTC
Brian Scharp - 2016/04/06 20:12:25 UTC
More specifically, towing instruction.
Depends on the method and more so on the instructor. I learned via scooter tow from Steve Wendt at Blue Sky, and it could not have been any safer.
Funny that Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt never seems to have enough spare time to be able to comment on any of these incidents and issues.
2016/04/09 04:04:54 UTC - 1 thumb up -- Christopher LeFay
NMERider - 2016/04/06 21:11:00 UTC
I just fired off a letter to Peter Birren for his input on the utility of the Link Knife in this situation.
How 'bout the utilities of the Linknife in THESE:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Weaklinks
Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC
You trying to tell me the pilot had time to release? Not a prayer.
I know about this type of accident because it happened to me, breaking 4 ribs and my larynx... and I was aerotowing using a dolly. The sh*t happened so fast there was no room for thought much less action. But I wasn't dragged because the weaklink did its job and broke immediately on impact.
Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.
Peter's just another idiot dope on a rope depending on luck, altitude, and/or magic fishing for his survival and health. And there hasn't been a punctuation mark's worth of discussion on anything in his inbred little cult since a week before last Christmas.
Brian Scharp - 2016/04/06 21:11:23 UTC
Dan DeWeese - 2016/04/06 20:37:43 UTC
I thought a linkknife could be rigged so that if the AofA gets too high or too far offline, it cuts away the tow line and frees the glider.
Doug Hildreth - 1990/09
1990/07/05 - Eric Aasletten - 24 - Intermediate - 2-3 years - UP Axis - Hobbs, New Mexico - Platform tow - Fatal / Head
Reasonably proficient intermediate with over a year of platform tow experience was launching during tow meet. Homemade ATOL copy with winch on the front of the truck. Immediately after launch, the glider pitched up sharply with nose very high. Apparently the angle caused an "auto release" of the tow line from the pilot, who completed a hammerhead stall and dove into the ground. Observer felt that a dust devil, invisible on the runway, contributed to or caused the relatively radical nose-up attitude. Also of concern was the presumed auto release which, if it had not occurred, might have prevented the accident. Severe head injury with unsuccessful CPR.
The reporter was certain he saw a dust devil begin on the edge of the runway in a location that would support an invisible dust devil on the runway crossing the path of the truck and glider.
Recommendation of the reporter: If towing is done in gusty, turbulent or thermal conditions, a row of wind flags should be on each side of the runway at 50-75 foot intervals to warn of invisible turbulence. 1) Pilots should attach their release line in such a way that there will not be an auto release. 2) Weak links should be strong enough so that breaks right after launch will not occur.
OK, everybody make sure to ignore Brian's post and Doug's fatality report 'cause they're more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
Ryan Voight - 2016/04/06 22:08:19 UTC
Brad Barkley - 2016/04/06 20:12:25 UTC
Depends on the method and more so on the instructor. I learned via scooter tow from Steve Wendt at Blue Sky, and it could not have been any safer.
Exactly agreed- depends on the instructor.
Something we all know, but sometimes people seem to forget- is we can't put a student in the air higher than they're ready for, before they're ready for it. We need to A) teach them the skills needed to get ready, and B) Observe consistency in demonstrating those skills.
How 'bout this:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9655904048_89cce6423a_o.png
guy? According to everyone involved and the u$hPa cover-up crew not one individual directly involved in or leading up to that one did anything the slightest bit wrong. If they got a do-over for that afternoon everything would be done exactly the same. So isn't this hang glider towing action really just a dice roll for every individual and pull taken throughout people's careers?
Wendt's trademark "low and slow" teaching/towing style accomplishes both things, in a way where students would have to try really, really hard to injure themselves. I won't say it's completely without risk... but it's probably as good as can be had doing something like hang gliding.
And you get such wonderfully qualified pilots coming out of his programs - Bill Priday, Holly Korzilius, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Brad Barkley to name but a few.
I have no details of this specific tragic accident, so please do not mistake my generality thought-sharing for addressing THIS case directly.
And we have no details of this specific tragic accident from the Mission people running this one - same as for Lin Lyons and Scott Howard. Which leads one to believe they've got stuff to hide - despite the fact that among ourselves, we agree (via the waiver) that we understand we're engaged in a risky sport that can cause serious injury or death. We each agree that we are personally and individually responsible for our own safety. If we have an accident and get hurt, we agree in advance that it is solely our own fault, no matter what the circumstances might be. We sign at the bottom saying that we fully understand these things, that we accept them, and that we know we are giving up the right to sue anybody if an accident happens. Go figure.
For whatever reason, putting people too high too early on HILLS doesn't seem as common... or at least doesn't seem to produce the same level of impact/injury... as towing training.
How 'bout:
- 2015/05/09 - Markus Schaedler
- 2015/05/17 - Scott Trueblood
- 2015/06/26 - Trey Higgins
- 2015/08/23 - Rafi Lavin
- 2015/10/11 - Jesse Fulkersin
- 2015/11/08 - Karen Carra
from last year in the US? Weren't they all too high too early in their hill careers? Either that or not high enough?
Is it too easy to put people too high? Do instructors mistake successful flights due to stable glider designs for the result of student skill? Does the tow operator instinctively try to "pull" the student back on course with the winch- which actually would do the opposite, accelerating them into deeper trouble.
According to the Skyting Theory - under which all towing operations are run - pulling the pilot back in line shifts his weight to under the near wing and accelerates the autocorrecting effect of center of mass towing.
I have more questions than I have answers...
Damn. I so do love it when you have answers.
...but I personally think it's time for Instructor Certification reform.
How 'bout u$hPa Waiver reform?
I think the only reason that hasn't happened, is how loudly people already complain about how difficult or expensive it is to become/stay an instructor...
What happens if we go to the other extreme? Eliminate the whole instruction and pilot rating system and let people work things out as best as they can? How do we know that we'll get worse results? One thing's for sure - what we're doing now isn't sustainable.
2016/04/06 22:26:20 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Brad Barkley
2016/04/09 16:38:58 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Michael Grisham
2016/04/09 04:08:14 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay
Tom Lyon - 2016/04/06 22:11:12 UTC
My heart goes out to the pilot and his...
Her.
...family. So sorry.
Since this is also something of a safety thread, I will say that although surface towing is a highly-proven method of towing...
How do we know? According to u$hPa THIS:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7462005802_bbc0ac66ac_o.jpg
never happened. Where's the data to highly prove ANYTHING in this sport? For decades the most highly proven safety device in aerotowing was a single loop of 130 pound test fishing line. Then three years ago everybody suddenly decided to become happy with highly proving 200 pound fishing line as the focal point of our safe towing system.
...and there are outstanding instructors who teach it...
How do you know?
- We don't have shit in the way of accident reporting and publishing systems and typically somebody's gotta get killed before we're even aware that anything bad happened.
- You're about to tell us that you don't have shit's worth of experience in surface and you've already told us...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=47096
Aerotow primary releases?
Tom Lyon - 2016/04/01 20:15:37 UTC
I also will not move up to towing with a Sport 2 or other glider until I probably have 100 hours or more on my Falcon. I'm a very conservative pilot.
...that you've got about the flattest learning curve in the history of the sport.
So where do you come off talking about outstanding instructors teaching surface towing?
Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt is a legendary outstanding instructor. Tell me:
- just what it is he's doing that makes him so fucking outstanding
- why the untold hundreds of Blue Sky products - Brad Barkley comes to mind - haven't gone forth and collectively fixed all of hang gliding's problems and pulled the sport out of its terminal nose dive
I won't surface tow in either a hang glider or sailplane (I'm a sailplane pilot as well).
Yeah, you certainly wouldn't wanna do anything to unnecessarily increase the depths of your experience, knowledge, understanding, skills.
Again, I am not making any statement on the safety of this towing method...
Yes you are.
...just that it's not for me.
I'll be sure to add it to my list of things that aren't for you - along with turning a glider below two hundred feet.
The reasons why I don't like surface towing are because the attitude of the glider is very steep (and that steep attitude can quickly become a high AoA in the event of a...
...sudden inconvenient increase in the safety of the towing operation.)
...power loss), the angle of the line to the towing vehicle is very high...
The angle of the line to the towing vehicle is very LOW - idiot. The angle of the line to the towing vehicle is zero in aero and in remote launch surface starts out as zero and starts going negative as the glider starts climbing. And a lower tow angle means a lower glider pitch attitude for any given tension. So you're a lot better off should an inconvenience suddenly rear it's ugly head and the worst possible time.
...and a glider that diverges can do so quickly (lockout)...
Not really a problem in aero...
01-001
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7375/12981378134_6d44d81e61_o.png
07-300
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7441/12980980635_a22762812d_o.png
10-307
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1660/26132155836_82b94d6550_o.png
15-413
http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3141/12981414774_e6ddd85c13_o.png
...with all it's advantages over surface:
- 250 foot fixed length towline
- driver:
-- hopefully watching the glider in a convex mirror
-- busy flying a plane of his own
-- unable to do shit in the way of easing power during the most critical stage of the flight
...and an emergency event pulls the aircraft toward the ground at a high rate of speed.
Like what?
109-15221
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8615/16487544910_41f57852ac_o.png
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8567/16673581951_d89a07ed78_o.png
111-15309
Nobody on either end able to abort the tow for half an hour?
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8819/18267685796_64156e9c91_o.png
Total fringe activity with:
- a driver one met in the parking lot a half hour ago?
- a fucked up two-string connection?
- a bridle hooked over a wheel extension?
- no useable radio or observer?
- no recollection of having a parachute?
I'm willing to aerotow (but approach it with utmost respect and caution), but I won't surface tow.
Get fucked.
2016/04/09 04:09:14 UTC - 2 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay
Zack C - 2011/03/04 05:29:28 UTC
As for platform launching, I was nervous about it when I started doing it. It looked iffy, like things could get bad fast. I've since logged around 100 platform launches and have seen hundreds more. Never once was there any issue. I now feel platform launching is the safest way to get a hang glider into the air (in the widest range of conditions). You get away from the ground very quickly and don't launch until you have plenty of airspeed and excellent control.
Aero is the most dangerous way to pull a glider off the ground of any halfway sane system and assholes like you go out of your way to build on the inherent danger by utilizing the crappiest equipment you can find.
Also... Won't surface tow 'cause it's too dangerous but no problem foot launching out of a slot on a mountain, right Jackie?
