Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25527
Mouth AT Releases

Started covering this just revived Jack Show in "fiends" back at:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post1622.html#p1622

Picking up where I left off close to four and a quarter years ago...

Al Dicken - 2012/03/14 15:05:03 UTC
British Columbia

I've wondered about the same idea, but with a link knife..

A Linknife would've worked. Twenty dollar Linknife at Jeff's shoulder with a string going to his teeth and he'd have landed smelling like a rose and would've gone back to the front of the line.

looks good!

Yes. It is. And you don't need to tie another loop of magic fishing line or worry about anything fouling every flight. And note that Peter Birren and his rotten little Skysailing Towing cult went dark half past last December.

Brian Scharp - 2016/06/01 19:48:18 UTC

http://sonomawingsbb.yuku.com/topic/6032/Releases
Releases

rcpilot - 2016/05/31 22:13:16 UTC

Load to actuation ratio is the load on the release divided by the force required to effect release.

Example: A release loaded to 200 pounds of direct load with a load to actuation ratio of 6 requires a force of 33.3 pounds to release.

The actuation ratio of the bent pin release that Davis sells has been measured at 6.2.

The actuation ratio of a straight pin release has been measured at 20, thus a 200 pound direct load requires a force of 10 pounds to effect release.

As a side note - I asked Davis Straub (on his OZ report forum) what the load to actuation ratio is on the releases that he sells and he deleted my post. I asked again and he deleted my post and banned me from his forum.

Anybody here care enough about this sport and/or the people in it to confront Davis and ask him about the load to actuation ratio of the crap that he sells?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

deltaman - 2011/02/25 18:33:03 UTC

Is it possible to release with a barrels (protow release) without any tension except the weight of a part of the tow rope ?..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

Garrett Speeter - 2016/06/01 21:36:56 UTC

Al Dicken - 2012/03/14 15:05:03 UTC

I've wondered about the same idea, but with a link knife..
looks good!

yes.
That works on truck tow

Super.

Paul Edwards - 2016/06/02 11:33:01 UTC

Oooh, I like that idea!

Big fuckin' surprise.

Reznok - 2016/06/07 03:49:43 UTC

I want one!

One WHAT? Hopefully you're talking about either the Remote Barrel or Multi-String illustrated by the topic's author?

Davis Straub - 2016/06/07 04:32:17 UTC

I have no recollection of who this rcpilot guy is.

There's all kinds o' shit of which you have no recollection, Davis. That's a major problem for assholes like you who are one hundred percent geared for disinformation and distortion.

I have no recollection of ever being asked what the release to load actuation pressure is for my standard issue barrel release.

What could an accurate answer possibly have mattered?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Davis Straub - 2015/06/06 01:34:24 UTC

As I have pointed out previously, I'm sure that the mouth releases are just fine. The mini barrel releases have been working just fine over the last month (my most recent experience) with well over a thousand releases in three competition.

The mini barrel releases working just fine over the month of May in 2015 with well over a thousand releases in three competition - a year before the month of May in 2016 in which just one of them killed just one airline pilot in just one competition.

The "crap" I sell is the standard barrel release used by the Florida flight parks and is hand made for me by the same person who has produced it for years.

- Oh! It's HAND made?



It isn't a product of some big automated assembly plant in Tennessee or China somewhere? Is there some distinction I'm missing between HAND MADE and...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.

...HOME MADE?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/10 22:58:21 UTC

I'm not bothered by straight pin releases.
I do think the strong link guys gravitate to them due to the higher release tensions that strong links can encounter.
I don't like homade stuff.
And apparently I'm pushing people to buy my flight parks releases?
That's funny... We don't sell any.

Swift - 2013/03/11 01:01:04 UTC

Because they work better at higher release tensions?
You are not bothered by that?

Whatever, whoever selected bent pins for barrel releases.. what was the purpose?
Is there some perceived advantage to a crooked pin?
Hasn't it has been known for years that the bent pin releases have problems working at moderately high tensions?
Why are inferior bent pin releases still considered the 'standard'?

You will tolerate straight pin releases if they aren't homemade?
Aren't they all homemade?

...HOME MADE?

- Well, anything that's a product of the Florida flight parks...


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7077/27082298482_cda1aba01b_o.png


...is plenty good enough for me!

- Oh. Hand made for YOU. 'Cause you're SPECIAL. Anything I'd hand make for you would be carefully engineered to blow up in your face at the best possible time. I always give the gene pool the highest possible priority.

- What? You can't NAME this "PERSON" who has produced it for years? How come everybody knows...

http://ozreport.com/20.072
Steve Pearson at Cowboy Up
http://ozreport.com/20.073
Pearson leaving Texas heading to Florida
http://ozreport.com/20.113
Building Dreams Interview Extras 1: Steve's First Gliders

...Steve Pearson's name but the identity of this highly gifted and talented craftsman is being kept under such tight wraps? And if some tragedy should befall him at the bent pin barrel release industrial center would all of his trade secrets die with him? Does he have an apprentice or anyone capable of keeping the tradition alive?

- Steve Pearson has been designing and producing gliders since the beginning of time. In the earlier years his gliders got substantially better - faster, cleaner, lighter, better handling - at frequent intervals before the designs plateaued out and couldn't advance much more while still being affordable hang gliders. What comparable advances has this dickhead with a sewing machine, tubing cutter, and box of bent parachute pins made in the over twenty years since I picked up this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8331320702/


stupid overpriced piece o' crap from the Kitty Hawk Kites glider ride factory? Comparing it to the shit you're selling I'd say that while the price has doubled the "quality" has been halved.

Hundreds have been sold and have worked without any difficulty.

So then you're saying that the thousands that have been sold haven't worked worth shit. 'Cause there's no question whatsoever that thousands, probably tens of thousands, of these have gone into circulation in North America, Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand - 'cause hang glider people have total shit for brains and will just blindly duplicate whatever the total assholes in Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland, New York, Michigan, Texas are doing.

Aeros undoubtedly sold hundreds of Combats that worked without any difficulty. But then...

http://www.aeros.com.ua/news.php?lang=english&id=349
Aeros news page
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29720
All Aeros Combat 2011/12/13 grounded
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33249
Aeros glider cross bar failure
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33817
Aeros glider cross bar replacement

...a couple of cross spars failed without even killing anybody and suddenly everybody and his dog had his panties in a bunch about it. Didn't appear to be all that interested in the ones that WEREN'T having any problems.

As I reported recently I have released the tow rope after the pilot released from their end with no difficulty.

Super Davis. Nobody's complaining that the Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey bent pin barrel release is problematic under zero tension when you've got a bit o' altitude and can use two hands to disengage it. We're more concerned about what happens at thirty feet when the tug's going one way, the glider's going the other, and the direct loading is rocketing up to the two hundred pound New and Improved Quavis Link capacity.

Twice now.

Cool! When I was down in Belize the first half of January I bought a two hundred dollar T-shirt designed to ward off Jaguar attacks. Worked flawlessly for the entire trip. Also hardly any problems with Crocodiles and Fer-De-Lances.

This time the tug pilot accidentally released the tow rope when he was dealing with the stinging or biting insect.

Have him look into one of those T-shirts. Probably wouldn't make things any worse.

Apparently this rcpilot fellow already knows what the actuation ratio is for these standard issue barrel releases...

Those aren't just standard ISSUE barrel releases, Davis. They're Use-These-Or-You-Don't-Fly-Motherfucker barrel releases.

...so why is he asking me to make the obviously calculation for him?

He just wants to see if your grade school level arithmetic is on par with your grade school level literacy.

Lemme tell ya sumpin', you off-the-scale evil, sleazy, stupid piece o' shit... Either way - I win, you lose.

- My stuff gets into circulation, survival rates go up, you motherfuckers get exposed for what you are - same way you did after the previous professional pilot fatality at Quest precipitated by the old Quavis Link increasing the safety of the towing operation.

- You keep my stuff out of circulation, you continue to kill at the current unsustainable rate the assholes who align with you and buy the crap you're saying and selling, your FunFests get scubbed, your public image goes further down the toilet, and my credibility and cachet keep climbing.

Do whatever the fuck you want. Time and arithmetic are totally on my side.

P.S. Everybody be sure to note just how deafeningly and conspicuously silent Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney - the world's greatest authority on everything in general and hang glider aerotowing in particular - is being on this one. His last two public appearances have been on "UV covers for assembled gliders" and a computer flight simulator program.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25527
Mouth AT Releases

deltaman - 2016/06/07 11:29:15 UTC

Ah! ANTOINE! Still alive, tuned in, and battle-worthy.

That's obvious why ALL pilots should ask their release dealer what is the value of Load/Actuation ratio ! It's not an opinion, it is math.

In the US hang gliding is an art - not a science - and we don't do math.

The fact that a bent pin barrel release is 3,5 times stronger to actuate at high load than a straight pin, is all except a detail !

Every pilots who never test their release at 240 pounds (greenspot 130 break) will be really surprised the day they have to in the air, cloth to the ground ! If they need 2 times to actuate, they are possibly dead.

What? Like at Quest...

02-00820c
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7252/27169646315_9af9a62298_o.png


...three Saturdays ago?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Pilots test and compare release on the ground or in normal AT conditions...
But testing a release at the maximum load (that means at the tension of the weaklink break) is by far more important.

Fuck that. I'm just gonna put ailerons on my glider so's I won't ever get in a lockout and NEED to release with any towline pressure.

The first specification of a release should be to be comfortably operative in all emergency cases.

Just always release before there is a problem. Then you won't ever get into an emergency situation. (Your spelling of "comfortably" has improved.)

Nobody (courts included) can't understand why the elected standard barrel is the worst version !?

Welcome to US hang gliding. The game is to make EVERYTHING as dangerous and crappy as possible. If u$hPa FIXES any problems they'll be sued out of existence for not having fixed them before they got into the air decades ago. So the game is to constantly degrade things under the guise of improving safety until all pieces of equipment and procedures are TYPICAL. (And I'm totally one hundred percent serious about that and will be more than happy to show you the documentation.)

All barrel should be straight pin.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/11 18:59:06 UTC

Storm in a teacup.

I did a demo for someone that was listening to Tad's drivel one day.
I had them hang a barrel release from the ceiling. From that release, I had a rope with a loop. The loop was just a few inches above the floor.
You stand on the loop, then activate the release.
Don't take my word for it, go try it.

Now, I pro tow with a 130lb weaklink. I'm 160lbs soaking wet. The protow cuts the force seen by either side of the bridal in 1/2, so I'm overloading the release with over 2X's it's achievable load.

I have no fear of bent pins.

Why aren't straight pins used?
That's easy. They can't be used with anything but thin lines.
They also can't be made with anything but thin lines.

Tad loves to forget that I've actually gotten one of his to jam.
NOTHING is perfect kids.

Straight pin releases can work, but they're not the panacea that these guys are claiming.

See Jim? Even when you stay oozed under your rock hoping nobody will notice you when this shit's going on I'm gonna be pulling out the quotes to make sure you wind up in the history books right where you belong. (Give the Guinea Worms my best next time you bump into them.)

I do not understand what logic can contradict it, except having to recognize this mistake for years..

- Decades.
- Yep. That would be the one.

It is time to go further and admit the need for another standard that let pilots hands on the control bar and is easy to release at high load.

Oh. So a 180?

07-300

Waited too long. Had been trying to fix a bad thing and because he didn't wanna start over - even after Davis assured him he could go back to the head of the launch line. What an asshole.

Brian Scharp - 2016/06/07 18:45:30 UTC

Davis Straub - 2016/06/07 04:32:17 UTC

I have no recollection of ever being asked what the release to load actuation pressure is for my standard issue barrel release.

You mean load to actuation ratio?

He doesn't know what he means. Still can't understand that a bridle that splits the towline tension in half between the pilot and glider isn't a three point.

http://sonomawingsbb.yuku.com/topic/6032/Releases
Releases

rcpilot - 2016/05/31 22:13:16 UTC

Load to actuation ratio is the load on the release divided by the force required to effect release.

If anything's gonna emerge from the ashes, Davis, it won't be YOU.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/1465306295
A barrel and mouth release combo

Davis Straub - 2016/06/07 14:31:35 UTC

Pull back the barrel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh3-uZptNw0


http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25527
Mouth AT Releases

And you're too fuckin' stupid and clueless to realize that that is 100.00 percent MY BABY. Evolved from:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318603266

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8307037970

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306258400


That's all but a total admission that with less than thirty bucks of material and twice that in labor Jeff Bohl could've landed smelling like a rose and gone back to the head of the launch line. BIG mistake.

You can go ahead and delete it if you want. Won't matter much - I've got a copy saved to disk.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25527
Mouth AT Releases

Eric Beckman - 2016/06/07 21:18:01 UTC

Has anyone decided what the minimum load to actuation ratio should be for a release? 5? 10? 15? 20?

I dunno, Eric...

First of all, did ya catch this:

deltaman - 2016/06/07 11:29:15 UTC

But testing a release at the maximum load (that means at the tension of the weaklink break) is by far more important.

part? Do you understand that that's what's ultimately limiting the load on the stuff at your end? In the unlikely event that things are legal on the Dragonfly end, I mean?

Next off...

http://sonomawingsbb.yuku.com/topic/5825/4144-Review
4144 Review

Eric Beckman - 2015/10/18 07:59

I have never personally seen a "perfect" system that prevents any possibility of failure, which is why it's so important to have a "correctly sized" weak-link for each pilot and glider combination.

rcpilot - 2015/10/18 21:19

I fly a sport 2 155. What is the correctly sized weak link for me, Eric?

Eric Beckman - 2015/11/02 04:54:50 UTC

To answer your question "What is the correctly sized weak link for me, Eric?," I suggest you read the article "Tie a (Better) Weak Link" from Drs. Lisa Coletti and Tracy Tillman's "Higher Education" column in Hang Gliding & Paragliding magazine. It will help you determine what you need. Please exercise your own judgement if you feel aero-towing presents too many risks, and do not fly hang gliders via aero-tow.

Have ya figured out what a "correctly sized" weak link for your pilot and glider combination is?

And drop the crap about reading the article "Tie a (Better) Weak Link" from Drs. Lisa Coletti and Tracy Tillman's "Higher Education" column in Hang Gliding & Paragliding magazine 'cause those shitheads learned everything they know about correctly sized weak links from Russell Brown, Russell Brown was running a big part of the shows at Quest Air Opens One and Two, and the correctly sized weak link for Jeff Bohl's pilot and glider combination killed him. (Gotta admit that it left his glider in pretty good shape though. Ditto for Zack Marzec's. (Also pretty good support for Steve Kroop's contention that the weak link is there to protect the equipment - not the pilot.))

Quavis with guns to their heads won't tell anybody the strengths of the appropriate weak links they're mandating so good freaking luck coming up with a number from which to start running your arithmetic.

Obviously, the higher the number, the easier it is to release under maximum load (or did I get the math wrong?). So, what is acceptable and a "reasonable" expectation for safe margin?

I dunno... You're the one who told everybody I was totally full of shit with respect to the numbers in my letter to the FAA. Why don't YOU tell US what's acceptable and a "reasonable" expectation for a safe margin?

This is what Davis and Russell were sending Li'l Niki up on...

02-00820c
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7252/27169646315_9af9a62298_o.png


...connecting to her very very reliable bent pin release. Surely that would've been OK.

I'm guessing that's a two hundred pound weak link which is the same as a double loop of 130 on a tandem - assuming the tug end is no weaker.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Idiot fucking Lauren is trying to pry a secondary release open with the primary still connected. So she couldn't be feeling much more than half max possible "pressure"? That sound OK to you?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/10 22:58:21 UTC

I'm not bothered by straight pin releases.
I do think the strong link guys gravitate to them due to the higher release tensions that strong links can encounter.
I don't like homade stuff.
And apparently I'm pushing people to buy my flight parks releases?
That's funny... We don't sell any.

We were kinda hoping these stupid motherfucker would crank weak link strength way the hell up without doing anything about their stupid shit releases.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4049
Towing errata

Bill Bryden - 2004/04/01 16:20:18 UTC

Some aerotow releases, including a few models from prominent schools, have had problems releasing under high tensions. You must VERIFY through tests that a release will work for the tensions that could possibly be encountered. You better figure at least three hundred pounds to be modestly confident.

Maybe eight to ten years ago I got several comments from people saying a popular aerotow release (with a bicycle type brake lever) would fail to release at higher tensions. I called and talked to the producer sharing the people's experiences and concerns. I inquired to what tension their releases were tested but he refused to say, just aggressively stated they never had any problems with their releases, they were fine, goodbye, click. Another person tested one and found it started getting really hard to actuate in the range of only eighty to a hundred pounds as I vaguely recall. I noticed they did modify their design but I don't know if they ever really did any engineering tests on it. You should test the release yourself or have someone you trust do it. There is only one aerotow release manufacturer whose product I'd have reasonable confidence in without verifying it myself, the Wallaby release is not it.

Unfortunately the only way ANYTHING ever moves in a positive direction in u$hPa controlled hang gliding is to have a cool popular dude with impeccable credentials killed in a spectacular and very public manner. A single Zack Marzec or Jeff Bohl dwarfs anything that can be accomplished with decades of attempts at rational discussion based on grade school science and arithmetic.

Anything we can do to make getting into the air safer is good by me (tow or foot-launch). What we do once we are flying on our own is a whole other topic.

Thanks!
Eric

Go fuck yourself, Skyslime.

Davis Straub - 2016/06/08 00:34:48 UTC

Brian,

I mean I don't recall being asked anything about anything that included the words "actuation ratio." Or anything similar to that.

Why should you hafta be asked anything, motherfucker? You're selling these to the public, mandating them for sanctioned competitions in conjunction with mandatory "appropriate weak links" that everybody and his fuckin' dog knows...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction

Diev Hart - 2011/07/14 17:19:12 UTC

I have had issues with them releasing under load. So I don't try to release it under a lot of load now.

...will overload the crap outta them.

I can go back and do a search but apparently according to this rcpilot fellow I erased that post so it wouldn't be there.

I hope that when we're both dead I can land a supervisor's position in Hell. If I do I'm gonna stop by and kick your balls up your throat half a dozen times a day.

[Steve Davy]

So she couldn't be feeling much more than half max possible "pressure"?

I never caught that detail before. Shouldn't it be much more than one quarter max possible pressure?

[Tad Eareckson]

Yeah, depending upon how ya do the math. A quarter plus of towline. I meant half of what it had been "designed" for - used as a secondary after a primary bridle wrap when it's feeling half towline.

And, of course, we all know that Industry Standard is to optimize bridle "design" - tug and glider primary and secondary - for wrapping and use a "release" on one end and a weak link on the other such that you can end up with nothing lighter between the tug's release and your bent pin Bailey than...

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

I witnessed a tug pilot descend low over trees. His towline hit the trees and caught. His weak link broke but the bridle whipped around the towline and held it fast. The pilot was saved by the fact that the towline broke!

...one or two thousand pound Spectra.

[deltaman]

hello Tad, and well done ! You win the first step of your battle. Davis is on his knees, pobably terrified by judicial action around Jeffery Lawrence Bohl. And now you should taste the pleasure to see your release published and promote by Davis Straub himself. What a revenge !
What is happening in US ? After Bernie Sanders, Americans pilots want order their release in Russia !?
Sorry if I expressly avoid mentioning your name in my post so as not to catch the proudest and keep the goal.
I stopped hanggliding 5 years and I'm back.

[Tad Eareckson]

hello Tad, and well done !

Thanks - and thanks for doing so much so effectively to get us where we are.

You win the first step of your battle.

We have several wins under our belts now. And the power payoff is the number of wins squared.

- One win is one win. Zack Marzec - end of advocacy of the Standard Aerotow Weak Link as the focal point of a safe towing system. Move forward one square. (Pro toad bridle also takes a serious hit, we get a bit more.)

- Jeff Bohl:
-- primary - end of the Easily Reachable Release. Two solid wins, four times the power.
-- secondary - two hundred pound weak link with inoperable Bent Pin Release. Three wins, nine times the power.

Davis is on his knees...

And Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney is - for the purpose of the exercise - EXTINCT. Credibility 100.00 percent permanently down the toilet. Knows he can't ever again breathe a word on anything of any actual substance without getting his head immediately blown off. Ditto for all of his former ass kissers.

...pobably terrified by judicial action around Jeffery Lawrence Bohl.

DEFINITELY.

http://www.kitestrings.org/post9417.html#p9417

Look at where the cameras are and who's not making any statements. Compare/Contrast with Quest's Zack Marzec response. Total dead fuckin' silence on this one. They never even heard of Jeff Bohl before. MASSIVE incompetence and negligence. End of story. Quest will never again be able to quietly BREATHE the word "safety".

Remember this?:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21377
AT several Questions

deltaman - 2011/04/05 07:30:44 UTC

before to leave, could you just list which important items I will learn in a flight park?
Thanks

Davis Straub - 2011/04/05 14:00:25 UTC

The flight park procedures here at Quest Air are the result of years of evolutionary pressures and experience that provide the focus on safety. The practices here illustrate what is important.

The construction of the carts (materials, wheel rake, tightness of the axles, etc.)

The length of the tow lines.

The appropriate carabineer.

The launch procedures (signals).

The maintenance of the 914 tugs.

The weaklink strength and construction of the connection to the tug.

The glider angle in the carts.

deltaman - 2011/04/05 14:06:20 UTC

Thanks,
so, now, I know I can stay in France

Seems like a million years ago now.

And now you should taste the pleasure to see your release published and promote by Davis Straub himself. What a revenge !

Definitely.

What is happening in US ? After Bernie Sanders, Americans pilots want order their release in Russia !?

Begging for anything they can get from anywhere as long it's not Made in the USA.

Sorry if I expressly avoid mentioning your name in my post so as not to catch the proudest and keep the goal.

Nah, the key is to NOT mention my name. Let the enemy do that - by mistake.

I stopped hanggliding 5 years and I'm back.

I was afraid you had. There's so few of us and we're so critical to what's going on with the sport globally. And it's another squared thing. Tad by himself is just lone nut case and easily dismissed. Two people who understand that two plus two equals four and are speaking out is a significant annoyance. Three - a problem. Four - a crisis. Five - game over.

Real sorry we've lost Zack. I think the situation with him is that he can't continue speaking out and continue to fly and be part of a flying community. But he was sure able to do a lot of damage in the space of a couple years. Can't ask for any more than that.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25527
Mouth AT Releases

Davis Straub - 2016/06/08 05:19:26 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Sure. Nobody did shit after Lin nearly got killed at Mission on 2013/06/15. Same way nobody did shit after Nancy Doe totally got killed at Mission on 2016/04/03. Keep up the great work.

Davis Straub - 2016/06/08 05:23:42 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15684
Pro-Tow Mouth Release

--LOCKED--

ng - 2016/06/08 13:09:42 UTC

Where do you buy one of these releases?

Wallaby, Quest, Florida Ridge, Lockout, Foothills, Kitty Hawk, Blue Sky, Ridgely, Morningside, Cloud 9, Whitewater, Cowboy Up... All these operations are constantly striving to make available to their students and clients the very safest equipment human engineering is capable of developing.

Peter Cheney - 2016/06/08 14:10:46 UTC
Toronto

has anyone thought about making a Bluetooth-actuated, servo-based release?

I dunno, Peter... Has anyone thought about using his shift key at the beginning of a sentence? (Or a period at the other end? (See his last sentence below.))

I'm not enough of a techie to say whether it's feasible, but here's my idea:

ANOTHER idea?

HANG GLIDING FOR BEGINNER PILOTS
By Peter Cheney
Published by Matt Taber
Official Flight Training Manual of the U. S. Hang Gliding Association
---
Flight Tip:

One of the biggest dangers in towing is the lock-out. In a lock-out, the tension of the line overpowers the pilot's control authority, and the glider rolls hard to one side. If the pilot fails to correct, the glider may dive and roll to the ground.

Lockouts usually happen when a pilot allows the glider to roll too far off heading, so that the tow line is pulling the glider at a sharp angle.

Lockouts can be prevented by using good technique, light tow pressures, and appropriately-sized weak links--if you get too far off heading, and a lockout begins to develop, a proper weak link will break and release you from tow.
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Hook knife: A hook knife is a razor-sharp cutting tool that can slash through lines in an instant. You should never tow without one - in an emergency, you can use it to cut the tow-line or bridle. The hook knife must be mounted on your harness so that you can reach it quickly and easily.
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What was wrong with those? Sounds like you had all your bases covered in spades.

install a linear servo in line with a Pro Tow barrel release.

A nice bent pin one that's known to work extremely well with a Convenience Link (©) - like the one Jeff Bohl was recently using as the focal point of his safe towing system.

The servo could be actuated by a Bluetooth-enabled button on the base tube...

On the BASETUBE? Why not put it within easy reach either on the glider's right downtube or the pilots right shoulder? Where people have been trained and are used to reaching for in lockout emergency situations. We've got perfectly good wheels with extremely long track records on both of those scores... Why...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

Anyway...
Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.

It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.

...reinvent them?

...but there are many other options - you could use a bite-controlled actuator...

That sounds suspiciously like my language.

...or multiple base tube buttons. I think it would work, but would like toi hear from some electronics / robotics experts.

We already have stuff that WORKS - dickhead. The problem is assholes like Jeff Bohl who choose not to use any of it because they think they can fix bad things and don't wanna start over.

This system would let you keep your hands on the controls at all times...

Why? In how many critical phases of hang gliding do we keep our hands in optimal position...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

...at all times?

...and get an instant release.

Fuck. If we want an instant release...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.

During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?

Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC

As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.

You can tell me till you're blue in the face about situations where it theoretically won't let go or you can drone on and on about how "weaklinks only protect the glider" (which is BS btw)... and I can tell ya... I could give a crap, cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.

That's basically what Jeff did and it worked fine - even with the Tad-O-Link he was happy with.

The existing barrel release provides mechanical redundancy.

Good thing...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

Like Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney always says...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1079
$15 pacifiers

Jim Rooney - 2005/09/20 13:11:43 UTC

Sorry, I don't see the logic in trying to save a couple bucks on equipment that I am litterally entrusting my life to. "Pacifier"? may be... but there's an old saying out there... "You never need the backup, until you need the backup".

I know of at least one pilot out there that flies with two caribiners. His logic makes more sense to me... you can't have too many backups.

You can't have too many backups.

I got the idea after riding bikes with electronic shifting - they're now working with wireless Bluetooth actuators, so I don't see why an aerotow release wouldn't work as well

Tell me why THIS:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318603266/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306300488/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8305308635/


wouldn't work.

Why introduce issues with switches, batteries for the transmitter and release power, radio signal transmission when you could use pretty much the same hand action with negligible effort to blow the release yourself directly?

You're in an emergency situation like Jeff's or worse. Do you wanna be trusting your life to something like that? If it doesn't work you're dead 'cause now you've gotta go to some kinda easily reachable manual backup solution and the flight ends up just like Jeff's did.

Cool Breeze - 2016/06/08 14:30:41 UTC

Too high of a failure potential with blue tooth and electronics. The only sane thing to do would be to have a mechanical guillotine pre-loaded...

Mechanical PRE-LOADED?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306300488/


SHIT! Why didn't I think o' sumpin' like that?

...to cut the cord with an explosive back up charge to ensure separation.

Yeah, guillotines and explosives. It would be totally fucking nuts just to pull back a barrel or latch to open a gate and free a towline end. Maybe a nuclear fission thing to make goddam sure.

This contraption would be tethered to a wrist...

Like...



...Eric Aasletten had his on 1990/07/05?

...with a limited amount of movement built into the slack before the actuation unit is engaged.

Yeah, you wouldn't want things with minimal play 'cause if you move your hand much for any reason once you're set on the cart you're gonna sever something and/or blow it up.

So how are you gonna do a regularly scheduled release or an early release in a thermal? Make an easy reach with the other hand to a conventional lanyard then carefully let go of the basetube while you disarm your wrist and safety the emergency lanyard?

(Actuation unit installed close to pilot, inline with every bridal connection point) Therefore, only a slight hand movement would be necessary to engage.

Fuckin' lunacy.

Also, modern tugs need to be redesign to have a backward facing seat, tail gunner style, which could accommodate a little person whose only job is tow management.

Maybe some cute little person of a varying age...

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7509/15659143120_a9aae8f7bd_o.jpg


So you'd probably wanna be extra careful and not do a Dick Reynolds, Chad Elchin...



...Greely...

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2211/13151011953_150b6f684a_o.jpg


...Keavy Nenninger, SOGA...

http://ozreport.com/forum/files/2_264.jpg


...Frank Murphy...



...Charles Matthews, Mark Knight.

Yeah Cool. That'll make aerotowing a LOT safer...
- fewer:
-- lives at stake
-- things available to go wrong
-- cooks to fuck anything up
- more available power to get the planes clear of the trees and powerlines at marginal runways
- quieter
- better fuel efficiency
- cheaper
- simpler

Nothing but plusses on this one. Sure wish I'd have thought of something like this. But all my ideas are Rube Golberg and use pulleys.

And let's nobody think for a nanosecond about THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn01oWAHoUQ


...option. No releases; lockouts; tugs outclimbing gliders; pro toads; weak link increases the safety of the towing operations; tug drivers fixing whatever's going on back there by giving people ropes; ropes given; tug crashes; towlines lost in cornfields; noisy, expensive, gas guzzling 914s; fuckin' dickheaded tug drivers hijacking the sport and making things as dangerous for hang gliders as passible...

Lotsa people who've been injured, crippled, killed wouldn't have been; infinitely cheaper; Ridgely and Felipe Amunategui would still be operating.

The tail gunner would have one big lever in front of him to hand the rope off should things go pear shaped.

Things are so fuckin' beyond pear shaped when douchebags like you can suggest this kind of insanity without immediately getting ripped a half dozen new assholes that it defies description.

Now, with my proposed system, we have multiple redundancies including a small tail gunner in play...

You work on that and post a video when you've gotten something up and running.

There's so very little sign of brain activity remaining in hang gliding. Aerotowing has been a serious malignant growth on it pretty much from Day One. If anything re-emerges from the ashes of what's now going down in flames we've gotta make sure that our gliders never again get hooked up behind tugs. We've gotta get scores of Guido Piccca's carts in the air and dynamite anything that might be used as a tug.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48131
We can and should have more directional control

That was a thread that Davis deleted without a trace after it got up to about a page and a half sometime before about 2016/06/08 15:30:00 UTC. I'd been overloaded at the time and hadn't gotten around to checking out the second page but did still have the entire first open and savable and am always more than happy to post stuff that hang gliding Establishment scum doesn't want anybody to see.

Steve Corbin - 2016/06/05 21:13:50 UTC

I get a lot of flack from saying this stuff, but I'm a believer and have thick skin, so here goes:

I have witnessed many incidents and accidents where if the pilot had had adequate roll control then it wouldn't have happened.

It's my firm belief that our current flex wing designs have adequate control for normal flying far from anything to hit. But in 40 years of flying a bunch of different gliders I've come to the conclusion that we don't have adequate control in many situations.

I've read too goddamned many reports of pilots dying or suffering serious injury due to this lock-out phenomenon.

This ridiculous state of affairs continues to be put up with by folks who should know better. It's 2016 and we have gobs of engineering ability and yet we still cling to the idea that we should only allow pure weight shift control in competition, even though it is glaringly obvious that it ain't effective enough.

Yeah we'll aerotow 99 times and have little or no problem, but then on our 100th a dust devil, invisible on a grass field, kicks us into a yaw roll position from which the only possible way out is to release and get back under control, but as we see in too many cases there is a window of vulnerability that we created by insisting on using an antiquated method of controlling our gliders. If we're in that window when the rouge air current finds us we won't be high enough to fix things.

Yeah we may save a few bux by doing it this way, but how many more accidents will there be before we get it through our thick skulls that maybe it's time to back up and regroup.

Every time a pilot has to release due to the lock-out phenomena, even when it occurs high enough to not be a significant set back, is another indictment of a policy that quit being viable several decades ago.

But until we admit we have a problem nothing will get done about it.

And this particular problem exists in hill launching also. Pure weight shift, without some kind of augmentation, is simply inadequate to our task at hand, and needs to be recognized as such.

In those last seconds of his life the pilot that died recently became a believer. Is that what it's going to take to convince you?

I really enjoyed the video of the sailplane under aerotow, performing precision axial rolls under tow. I don't think we need anywhere near that degree of control, but we sure as hell need more than we have.

OK flamers, come and get me, I'm holed up with plenty of firepower.

Steve, who only wants to be truly helpful.

Davis Straub - 2016/06/05 22:07:11 UTC

In autos in the US there is one fatal accident for every 100 million miles driven.
The last time we increased roll control we just extended the wings to get more performance by reducing induced drag.
Perhaps a hint at how we might go about getting increased roll control without going that route would be helpful.

Davis Straub - 2016/06/05 22:11:02 UTC

BTW, in aerotowing we pull on the VG almost half way or half way reducing further our roll control.

Davis Straub - 2016/06/05 22:22:58 UTC

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/06/business/for-driverless-cars-citylike-test-sites-offer-the-unpredictable.html?_r=0

Ben Reese - 2016/06/06 07:03:58 UTC

Before I logged in just now I was thinking the very same thing Steve "Dayhead" is saying. Even the best pilot is left helpless if they can't exercise roll control quickly at low altitude.

As a sailplane pilot towing out of Truckee, CA I have been very close to emergency release even with full alieron and rudder control. The dynamics of the tow rope are very complex when things start going sideways.

The tug is an airplane and is moved through the air and controlled in it by different forces directing it on flight path. A Hang Glider is not a sail plane.

Even if your flying free from tow flying close to terrain the glider can easily be overpowered by air currents pointing you at the mountain. The best way to recover is increase speed and get your weight on the side you want to turn on.

Often it is best to go in the direction the current is taking you while you increase speed then reverse your direction or choose another using the turn your forced with?
This is a habit pilots get used to that must not be exercised while on tow.
You must follow the tug or release and I can see no exceptions to this.

I may be wrong but my instincts tell me otherwise.. This difference in HG'er Off tow flying and absolutely no go exception on tow could be a contributing factor as to why such experienced pilots enter a lockout and fail to release on time.
A second or 2 more and they would realize the error but it's just to late so close to the ground.

On tow close to the ground your going in the direction of the tug no matter what. Only a fast release will give you your own destiny on flight path.
If you go in direction counter to your tugs flight path, this will result in a lock out.

A sailplane can follow precisely the path of the tug. The nose hook is past the Forward CG and stabilizes the sailplanes natural tendency to follow the tug.

These dynamics are more complicated with Hang Glider and pilot being center of mass
with a moving CG. The tug pulls the pilot and the pilot pushes and pulls the glider..
There is allot going on and the fact that we do it somewhat safely is a real mystery.
A great deal of skill is required and displayed by both tugs and HG'er.

But sadly at times no amount of skill is enough.

Jeff Roberson - 2016/06/06 13:28:29 UTC

Steve Corbin - 2016/06/05 21:13:50 UTC

It's my firm belief that our current flex wing designs have adequate control for normal flying far from anything to hit. But in 40 years of flying a bunch of different gliders I've come to the conclusion that we don't have adequate control in many situations.

Here's a list of gliders I've flown during my 34 active years in this sport:
Spirit 180, Stratus VB 165, Comet 165, Comet 135, Comet II 165, Streak 165, Streak 135, Sensor A 165, Sensor B 155, Duck 135, Duck 165, Duck 180, ProAir 185, ProStar II 165, Magic III 177, Magic IV 166 (regular and full race), Magic 133, Axis 13, Vision 160, HP I 170, Sport 165, Glidezilla 155, Moyes Missile 190, K2 145, K2 155, K5 148, HP AT 158, Klassic 145.

In roll authority - THEY ALL SUCK! (Note that I'm a lightweight - under 140 lbs - and this is a big factor for roll control.)

Disclaimer: The most recent design I've flown is a PacAir Klassic 145. My buddy (who has over 4000 logged hours) says that the newer toplesses (e.g.Talon) roll much easier, but I simply don't believe him - the space truss structure and sail attachment configuration has not changed in any fundamental way at all.

p.s. I've never towed and never will - its simply too dangerous IMO.

Bille Floyd - 2016/06/06 15:48:29 UTC

Steve Corbin - 2016/06/05 21:13:50 UTC

I've read too goddamned many reports of pilots dying or suffering serious injury due to this lock-out phenomenon.

@ Davis :
It almost kinda sounds like, your getting defensive on this one ? What could be bad, about more control ?

Jeff Roberson - 2016/06/06 16:16:38 UTC

Davis Straub - 2016/06/05 22:07:11 UTC

Perhaps a hint at how we might go about getting increased roll control without going that route would be helpful.

Something like this:



would greatly assist in accomplishing this:

Davis Straub - 2016/06/06 20:37:20 UTC

See if you can get Steven Pearson to give it a try.
No, I'm not being the slightest bit defensive.
Even now.

Ben Reese - 2016/06/07 06:01:27 UTC

Nice idea Ridgerunner.

Trying to visualize the turn leverage and how the system helps you make a right turn?

If you go right the cable pendulum acctully pulls the sail tighter Reducing billow on the right? Should the initiation of a right turn increase billow reducing lift on the right and flatten sail on the left increasing lift on the left?

Your drawing is probably right but I am not seeing the details not shown out to the wing edges.

I was thinking about some kind of wing tip spoiler activated at extreme bar positions. Since the tips are out and behind the CG it seems the lift spoiling and induced drag would be very effective. Your lever action could also activate this system and change billow all in one control input..

Thanks, for sharing this and it seems I have seen it before?

I'll chew this crap and its authors apart on a subsequent post or two.